Life Will Be the Death of Me with Chelsea Handler - Tupac, Ayahuasca & Marriage with Jada Pinkett Smith

Episode Date: October 19, 2023

Jada Pinkett Smith joins Chelsea this week for a very special episode, to talk about how ayahuasca helped her out of long-standing depression, why she and Will have chosen to have an unconventional marriage, and what really happened onstage that night.   * Read Worthy by Jada Pinkett Smith here.  * Need some advice from Chelsea? Email us at [e-mail] * Executive Producer Catherine Law Edited & Engineered by Brad Dickert * * * * * The views and opinions expressed are solely those of the Podcast author, or individuals participating in the Podcast, and do not represent the opinions of iHeartMedia or its employees.  This Podcast should not be used as medical advice, mental health advice, mental health counseling or therapy, or as imparting any health care recommendations at all.  Individuals are advised to seek independent medical, counseling advice and/or therapy from a competent health care professional with respect to any medical condition, mental health issues, health inquiry or matter, including matters discussed on this Podcast. Guests and listeners should not rely on matters discussed in the Podcast and shall not act or shall refrain from acting based on information contained in the Podcast without first seeking independent medical advice.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human. There's no shortcut for saving time, but saving money is simple. Just combine your car and home insurance with Bel Air Direct and save. Get a quote at BelAirDirect.com. I survived nine months in captivity, and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them. I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are the Survivor Files. Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable, abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced. These are stories about what it takes to make it out alive.

Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home. Pro Society is a weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse. Each week, we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and pop culture with your favorite writers, book talk creators, and plenty of overthought opinions. Yeah, I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed. Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. hi uh hi Catherine hi what a world was that an echo was that my voice bouncing off the walls

right back into my throat where it belongs we're just like turning into the same person a whirlwind of a weekend oh my gosh you had an amazing show oh my god thank you for coming two amazing shows at the Pantages in LA and everyone came out it was so much fun I felt like I was I was felt like my wedding everyone was there I was at two nights of that though the after party was twice as long as the show each night and then i had phoenix on saturday night and we're on the plane there and i said to carla i'm like is there anyone coming backstage she's like not one single person i was like beautiful we were in and out of there we grabbed our tacos and left i was like let's get out all oh that's so exciting yeah there were a lot of friends of the show there

a lot of people who've guested on the show and it was wonderful yeah my family came i walked outside into the lobby for the after party my aunt was there she hates everybody she hates all social gatherings. She hates the public. The fact that she came out to my show on Pantages was so sweet. It brought tears to my eyes. All my cousins came. All my friends from Chelsea that my old show on Netflix were there. It was so fun. Such a nice. Oh, it was really great. Yeah. And I'm coming this weekend, you guys. Tickets are still available. Cleveland is Friday night. Columbus is Saturday night. And Pittsburgh is Sunday night. All three nights of those still have tickets available. So if you're in the areas come to my show very exciting yeah it's a fantastic show oh thank

you so much so fun to perform i'm having the best time on the road it's a big party how's your energy level this tour it's good i mean as long as i have a day where i can just like last night i went to bed at around seven i went to the angel city soccer game yesterday yeah with glenn and doyle and abby and uh perfect i brought jamie makeup and we all went and it was fucking awesome they won and now they're going to the championships or the playoffs or something. I don't know, soccer jargon, but it was really fun to be there.

Yeah, all my lesbian friends have season passes to that. They love it. Yeah, all the lesbians are down to get me. They know that it's a matter of time before I transition into a lesbian and that I make my way over to that world. I told them I still have at least 100 men left to exhaust before I make a commitment,

but clearly I'm on my way. There you go. They're just waiting patiently. Exactly, waiting patiently. Incredible. So our guest today is kind of everywhere right now. Yes, yes, yes. She's everywhere and now she's here.

Her name is Jada Pinkett Smith and her book is called Worthy. Okay, we have a lot to cover on this topic because I just read this book in one day and everybody is going to want to get their hands on it. It's called Worthy by Jada Pinkett Smith and it is her, well, it's her life story. And I have learned so much about you that I did not know. And I'm like, how did I not know that? And I was like, well, I guess you don't know these things about everybody, you know? You don't know everybody's most personal things.

But I think let's start at the beginning because you grew up in the hood. Yeah. Well, partly. Partly in the hood. Yeah. You grew towards the hood. I grew, yeah. It was like part of my life.

I think once I turned about 13 and my grandmother passed and it was just me and my mom. And that's when things took a turn. Things took a turn for your mother, for you, and your dad. Robsoul? Robsoul. Robsoul, as he would say. It's really Robsoul, but he would say Robsoul. Robsoul, okay.

But I had no idea that you grew up in that environment, that you were a heroin dealer. No, it was cocaine. Oh, it was cocaine? Yeah, it was cocaine. My mother was a heroin addict, but I was selling cocaine. Oh, I was kind of hoping it was a heroin dealer. I'm not sure why. probably because I once dated a heroin dealer and I was confusing the two but okay so you were a

cocaine dealer and that was what age what age were you when you did that from about 15 to 17 and that was a way for you to make things right in your neighborhood you were being pretty neglected at home right and you were just basically a survivalist but not even a survivalist you you were into that lifestyle of living there like you wanted to stay in baltimore you were going to the baltimore school of arts yeah i was going to baltimore school for the arts yeah yeah and so talk to me about the headspace of that little girl well she as you can see she was living many lives and i think for me at that particular point of time considering like where my mom was like i had no idea if she was going to make it or not you know and so for me it was talking about gammy

everybody yeah you know you know from red table talk and i just wanted to find a way to find my own security find my own power my own sense of worth right right and so i got some of that from going to baltimore school for the arts and being able to really kind of just be in this creative world that I loved so much but at the same time I was like yo I need to make money I need to have security I need to have stability and so I was also in the streets so and then I auditioned for North Carolina School for the Arts and got in got robbed had some pretty bad two pretty bad experiences that my mom found out about and then she was like oh no you're getting up out of here you will be going to college because I wasn't expecting to go to school I was like no I'm

stay in Baltimore and I'm going to try to be a queen pin. And you wanted to stay, that's what you wanted to pursue. In that state of mind, you were like, I'm going to make it here and do what these guys on the streets are doing as a woman because you were a tough ass bitch. Yeah. And you weren't to be fucked with and you believed that you could do that. I did.

And you did do it for a while. For a moment. Until it got a little Until it got a little dicey. Yeah. There's a couple stories in this book where she was really very close to Raul probably getting shot, losing or worse, losing your life. But I love the juxtaposition of being that talented because

everybody knew you were talented at that age. People were spotting your talent and it came easily to you, I would say. It did. It came easily. Whether it was dancing, acting, maybe the singing wasn't as easy. Yeah, the singing wasn't as easy, for sure. But to get recognized for that at an early age while also having this kind of other side you know it's it's very human yeah this story thank you and it's and it's not one-dimensional at all which is the way really all of our true stories are so you go from the Baltimore School for the Arts I think right and then a mentor of yours kind of basically made you audition for this university in North Carolina Donald Hicken he was my theater he was the theater department head and he was like you need to go and

audition because I was like, I'm not, I'm not going to North Carolina. Like that's just not happening. He's like, listen, you're going to go in here and audition. This is going to be good for you. And so I went in and I got accepted. And, you know, even once I got accepted, I was still like, I'm not going, you know, and then life took a turn and my mother, even though my mother had her drug abuse problems, her substance abuse problems, when it was really time for her to step up she always seemed to find a way to do that and she was not taking no for an answer about getting me out of Baltimore once she found out that I had been dealing drugs and I almost lost my life and she was like you're getting up out of here I don't care what you say and then there's a really

poignant story in the book without giving away all of the book but these are just such rich stories in here like it's such a full life that you've led right and there's a point in the story in the book where she calls her mom after a year of school and you're like, fuck this shit. Like, I got this. You have two choices. I can either become a lawyer and go to law school or I'm going to Hollywood and I'm going to try and make it happen. Right. And she's like, get your ass to Hollywood. She sure was. Yep. She flew out with me to get me set up in L.A. It's so funny. I have like there's a similar when I was 19 years old, I went to a year of community college or sorry, a semester of community college. And I was a hot mess as a teenager. My parents were just

sick of me. And I remember after one semester, I said to them, I go, I just think this is a waste of everyone's time. I said, I think it's time for me to go to California. My father goes, please go. Please get away from us and go. And once you get away from the people that you have taken for granted or you feel have mistreated you or haven't been available to you, that is the first time you gain appreciation for that kind of familial love.

Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Another fascinating thing about this book is your relationship with Tupac. Yeah. From the age of 14. Yep. And you guys were friends for the rest of his life.

Yep. And close friends. Really close friends. And there were a lot of rumors that you guys were a couple, but that's not true. That is so not true. As you could see from the book, that was not true. Yeah. It sounds like he wanted to be a couple more.

It's funny, though, because when you talk about your relationship with him, of course, when you're reading about, you know, a man and a woman coming of age at that time, you're like, well, there's got to have something romantic happening. And you even say in the book that you tried, like you tried to kiss him. And it's like, this is not good. For both of us. Right. For both of us.

That's the thing. And I think, you know, even in that moment in the book where he thinks he wants to marry me, I think it was just based out of a really extreme circumstance because he was at Rikers and he was in a really bad way. And he knew I was a rock for him. And I think at that time he just really needed a tether. But I promise, I tell everybody, as soon as he would have walked out of those gates, he would have divorced my ass for sure. He did not want me as a wife. But you were thinking about it. I was because I really felt like, well, maybe this is something I should do to get him through time.

He wanted somebody to do time with him. And I was going to do time with him. You know, I was going to do that time with him. But I was like, man, like, and then I asked him, I was like, psychological wife, conjugal wife, like what? And he was like, nah, like you're going to be my wife. Like I was like, now, Pag, now, you know, this is not going to work. I was like, I can't do that. I'm not, no.

And so we worked through that. We got through that passage. and, you know, brought it back to where it needed to be. And what are some of the words that you would use to describe him? Oh, man, really passionate, very charismatic. And he really wore his heart on his sleeve. He was really a deeply feeling person. Yeah.

And really highly sensitive, you know. And I think that probably is the part that got overlooked a lot because, you know, his public persona, a lot of times you would see him, you know, depicted as this like rageful, angry, but that just had to do with like, he had that existential heartbrokenness that we all kind of suffer from. And he just, you know, he had a difficult time dealing with what is, what was, you know, the suffering of people and the unfairness of life and those kinds of things. Yeah, it's fascinating to hear about all of the different seminal relationships that you've had with all of these people kind of. And it was something I loved reading about particularly was

the acknowledgement from people like heroes that you looked up to as soon as you came on the scene in L.A. that knew like this girl's got it, like Debbie Allen. Debbie Allen, number one. Great story in the book about Debbie Allen and meeting Jada at an audition for a role. Yeah. And that, you know you didn't weren't right for but she's like forget about that you're so special like i'm gonna write you a role yeah she made me a series regular in the room and created lena james from the story of my life she was like tell me about your life and so i told her about my background and then she created the character lena james that's so cool that's cool right it's just cool to also be recognized at such a young age because you came here at such a young girl yeah you know

as did I. I remember that feeling of like, you don't know what you're going to do, but you know you're going to do it. Right. You just don't know how it's going to happen. Right. Like it's like a bowling ball. Like I say this a lot. If there's a bowling ball moving in a direction, you better get out of the way because it's going. Right. And then so you came to L.A. Yeah. And Tupac was already here when you got to L.A. He came out before you. He came out before me. Yeah. And so he was up north, California, but he would come to L.A. a lot because I was there. And so we were rising together yeah and how was his relationship when you married Will did they get along did they have a cute relationship or no well by the time he was already gone oh he was yeah he was gone

when I married Will oh I see yeah so but he when I started dating Will what's funny is that you know Pac always has something to say about whoever I was seeing always and how I know that he had approval of Will was because he didn't say anything. He didn't say nothing, right? And so I really do believe that as time went on, if he had not been murdered, then they would have been friends for sure. And how was your relationship with Tupac's girlfriends? I always welcomed.

I was like, I'm going to love who you love. We're going to keep it right there. I'm going to love who you love. So I never had any problems with any of his girlfriends. Yeah. Never. Yeah, it's usually the other way around. Yeah.

You know, nobody was ever good enough. Yeah. You know, it's just like, uh-uh, that he's a clown. You know, listen, worry about your life. Okay, so you moved to California. You have, I mean, there are so many experiences to delve into. There is a very, very poignant multiple chapters about your ayahuasca journey. Yeah.

There's a lot of really beautiful stuff in there about both of your children, Jaden and Willow, and what it means to you to be a mother. And I think you've made some really brave choices as far as being able to let go of a baby that is not even fully, you know, cooked. How the traditional kind of perspective of motherhood is, especially in this country and how we look at it, that there's a lot of sense that people – children feel like parents' property, like the parents own their children and that they decide what's best for them and I'm your mother and you need to listen to me and that's it. Just shut up. And what you introduce in this book is a completely different way to look at these things. Yeah. That these children are your teachers, that these children deserve their independence and their will, and that you need to listen to even someone who's eight years old when they tell you they don't feel comfortable doing something. Absolutely. You must.

So talk to me a little bit about that and how do you think you became that way? I think it was a combination of how I was raised in my grandmother's house and in my mother's house, honestly. Now, being that my mother had problems with substance abuse, I had a lot of freedom. So within that freedom, I got to see the importance of having that freedom to be able to self-actualize at such a young age. Now, in that, I definitely needed some bumper rails, right? And so I took a little bit of what I discovered with how my life was with my mother. and I just put in some safety guards with my kids, right? And then I just thought about how my grandmother

nurtured certain aspects of myself. Like she saw certain things in me and she was like, oh, you're athletic. I'm gonna put you in tennis. Oh, you like to dance. Ballet. Okay, piano. So she was always there to just kind of cultivate.

She kept me busy and she wanted me to be what she would call well-rounded. And so I just looked at all of these components, you know, and then I thought about at different stages, what did I need at this stage when like Jaden at 15, I was on my own at 15, right? Right. So let me just contextualize this. So there's a part of the book where Jaden says to his mom and I think Willow was in the room at the same time. Right. And says in a very prophetic way, I need to feel the rain. I need my freedom. It's time for me to go. Go. Right. When he said, I need to feel the rain. I knew exactly what that meant. I knew exactly what that meant. And I knew he was going to be down the street. And that is chilling to think about as a mother. Yeah, it was a devastating day. I just remember being so heartbroken.

But I knew, I knew, I was like, if you don't let him go now, this is going to be a bigger problem than if you do. And he came, you know, like a year later, a year and a half later, and he's like, I get it. You know, it was like he had an opportunity to take on this life, take on this responsibility. and got to see everything that we were trying to do as parents, he was like, oh, man, I understand why you did this and why you did that, da-da-da-da-da. But he grew up in such a beautiful way. And he left at 15 and never came back.

And so when he came back a year and a half later, he just said, I got it, but I'm still out? Yeah, I mean, he was just basically, he had an aha, you know? It was like him just kind of giving us our flowers as parents, you know? I mean, we were talking to him every day. But just that aha moment that he had when he was about 16 and a half. Because I knew if you let him go now, Jada, he's going to come back faster. Not meaning come back into the house and live.

I knew that was over. He was never going to come back in that way. But I knew that psychologically he was going to come back. So I say all that to say that I learned quickly that each child has to be honored separately. There's not like this cookie-cut-out way in which like, oh, this is what a 15-year-old needs. This is what a 14-year-old needs. I would never let Willow leave the house at 15, ever. Yeah.

She was not ready. Jaden was. So but what if Willow had decided after that that she wanted to leave the house? That would have been a different situation. Right. Because how can you say no to one? I mean, yes to one and then no to the other. Because there was a sense of responsibility that Jaden had and maturity in that way that Willow hadn't developed yet.

Now, she had her own maturity in different ways, you know, in other areas, but just not that. And so as a parent, you have to be able to look at those nuances. It's not about, and I used to, because we talked about this, Willow and I, it's not about, oh, Jaden gets to do this and you don't. It's like, whoa, I'm looking at, as a parent, what you have more capacity for, right? Where are your skill sets, you know? I'm not going to put you in a place that I feel as a parent that you might not be ready for. Jaden just happened to be ready for that particular passage. There's a cute little passage in the book, too, where she talks about dropping Jaden off at school for the first time. And he's like, Mommy, why would you ever drop me off with all these people who don't even love me? And she's like, oh, fuck. Wow, fuck.

How am I supposed to answer that? So she drops him off at school and sits in the parking lot. She goes, you know what? I'm going to sit here and wait until noon until you get out so she'd go there and wait for him to get out of school meanwhile my parents weren't dropping me off or picking me up they're like see ya

that's amazing I was like you're right somebody's always going to be here who loves you I'll drop you off and I will sit in this parking lot until 12 o'clock every day wow so crazy it's just so crazy to think kids can grow up that quickly so bittersweet

the heartache that it causes yeah lots Yeah. There's no shortcut for saving time, but saving money is simple. Just combine your car and home insurance with Bel Air Direct and save. Get a quote at BelAirDirect.com. When I was 14 years old, I was kidnapped and held captive for nine months. I survived, and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them.

I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are the Survivor Files. I just remember this low, taunting voice next to my ear saying, shut up, don't say anything. Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable. I knew if he woke up, without a doubt, he was going to hurt me. I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed, and I just started screaming. They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced.

But these aren't stories about what's taken from them. They're stories about what it takes to make it out alive. Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home. This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters,

pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse. I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having. I'm going to have to look up this story. I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed. From bestselling authors and your favorite book talk creators to the latest pop culture moments, nothing is off the table it's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters and that is a trojan horse whether you're looking for literary deep dives smart pop culture conversations or a community of readers who love to think a little too much you're in the right

place listen to pro society on the iheart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. See you between the pages. So on a more serious note, you talk a lot about different times in your life where you felt depressed, overwhelmed, unable to function, and sometimes even suicidal. This book is so revealing. This is exactly what a memoir should be. And I think it's going to help so many people because to know that someone like you and of your stature and all of these wonderful things that life looks like it is, is still hard. It doesn't make it easy because you're rich and famous. Right.

And that's the truth. And, you know, I think at that time when I went through one of the darkest periods, my 40th year, when I was really suicidal, I really had so much shame because I felt like everybody else. I was just like, what is wrong with you? because my life on the outside wasn't matching how I was feeling on the inside. And it was so funny because my mother just finished the book and she's like, I can't believe you didn't talk about how you woke up every morning crying. And I said, well, I thought it was enough for me to just talk about me looking for a cliff to drive off of.

I didn't want to, you know what I mean? And she said, even in reading this memoir, she said, I'm just getting so much understanding. She was like, because everybody knew I was unhappy, but nobody knew why, including myself. Right. So everybody's looking at me like, what is your deal? You know? Why can't you be happy? Why can't you be happy?

Right. And so that just shut me down even more. And I just got into a darker, darker space to the point I was just like, I want out. I just didn't see a way out. I thought I was inherently broken, inherently something was wrong with me. And then, by the grace of God, you know, little guru, Jaden, you know, not even knowing the state that I was in, comes into the kitchen. He's like, you got to listen to Moises and Mateo and hear about their father's experience in Peru. Right. And so because my son knew I'm a seeker and like, you know, I love different experiences.

So I go into the living room, and I'm listening to Moises and Mateo. And I'm like, is your father in town? I'm like, can you call him so I can talk to him? And as soon as their dad, I saw their father, I could just see the brightness. I was like, this is a different guy. And then I started talking to him about his experience. And I was like, I need this. I need this.

And then the universe opened up an opportunity for me in Ojai to be able to go and do AYA about a month and a half later and changed my whole life. I got to see through the medicine the cycle of self-hatred I had been in. Oh, God. Yeah, deep cycle of self-hatred. Deep. And so, and yes, and because what you talk about is when you don't have the answers for why you feel this way,

it's almost like you're burrowing a bigger hole within yourself. Yeah, that's right. Because without, you know, I love when people call it medicine ayahuasca because it is medicine. It is. And that's what it's for. The imagery and the sensation that you feel when you do ayahuasca can't be explained by anything else. And these are, you know, it's spiritual.

It's like there's a spirit guide who's telling you. And you talk about all your different experiences in this book. And how many, I mean, I think you've done it multiple times. I've done it. And you get something new out of it each time. Every time. Every time. And one of your very first experiences was so bad and dark that I was like, what?

This bitch is crazy. And you went back and you're like, I think I need to stay for the next night, which was not even planned. Well, yeah, because I felt like I was possessed. Let me tell you, my kids have been lifesavers, literally. The only reason why I went back in is because I was like, whatever's on me, I can't take this to my children. That's the only reason why I went back. If I didn't have kids, I probably, I don't even know, Chelsea, honestly. I wouldn't have had, sometimes, and I realized this in life, sometimes it's, you're not your motivation, and that's okay.

You know, there have been times when I've had to think about other people, and most of the time, my kids. And that particular time, it was about my kids. And I went back, and then I had to go through yet another difficult night, but it brought me to that space of resolve. light and that was much more peaceful yeah and then you've continued to use it yeah I use it I will right after that I didn't do it for a year because I was terrified I was like if this is what this experience is I don't want to do this ever again I got through I'm okay thank you I don't want to kill myself anymore thank you thank you for the healing but then a year later I was like I feel like I need I need to go back and so I went back again and then after that I started going

often just like every three weeks I was just in the room in the room and do you prefer to have that experience alone or with other people um I did it for years by myself with just me and a guide and I think I needed that but now I really enjoy listen I think you needed it too because I mean Look at the results. Yeah. I mean, it's amazing. Thank you. It is medicine.

It is. So you did not kill yourself, thank God, because you were able to survive these terrible bouts of depression, of self-hatred, of self-immolation, which I think so many people can relate to. And so many people feel like they're the only people in the world feeling that way. And that's what's so heartbreaking is that they're not alone. Like no one listening. You're never alone. You know, you're not the only person going through things like this. And there are ways to survive, you know, and if it's not plant medicine, there are other ways to survive. You can pick up the phone and call a hotline. You can call a suicide hotline. You can call a family member. You can call someone who knows to care about you because you also have to remember that these feelings are never permanent. These are all temporary feelings and they can feel like they are going to take control of you forever, but they will not.

That's right. Okay. So moving along, what was your, I want to know, how did you come to the decision to write this book at this time in your life? Well, it was really 2021. And on this journey to, you know, self-worth, Jay Shetty, who's like a brother to me, had been by my side and he's like, you need to write a book. And I was like, I don't fucking want to write a book. I don't want to write a book. And we got into it one day. And I was like, you know what, Jada, you know, Jay, this is your brother. Just think about why he might be thinking that this is something good for you to do. and you know a couple days later I was in meditation I was like oh man wow my journey from feeling unlovable to feeling lovable that's a universal journey most of us are on that journey and I was like that's that's a worthy story that's a worthy journey to share and I felt like I had been through so much I had been through the gauntlet of like people saying all kinds of crazy stuff about me and I felt like I could afford to really give a deep honest exploration of my

journey because I don't have the fear of being criticized or judged in a certain way because I feel like a lot of us women our stories are still considered taboo to really tell the real deal Right. And we feel like that we're going to be dragged through the mud. And that's not fun. I've already been dragged through the mud. So, OK, you know what I mean? So I want to offer this journey for those who need to be seen in a certain manner, who might be in a hopeless place. Because I know if I when I was in a hopeless place, if there had been a story like this, that I could just have some breadcrumbs, I could have oxygen. I'm like, I'm not alone. This person can see me. This person is showing me that I'm not the only.

This is not a unique experience that I'm having. And I don't have to have shame about it. And another reason what you're saying is striking me is because within this book, there have been many moments where the women in your life have come to you seeing, you know, whether it was at your 40th or a different time saying, seeing that you weren't OK. and actually stepping in and how meaningful that is, which is something that we talk about a lot on this podcast when people call in is, do I get involved? Do I say something? And I'm a firm believer that the answer is always yes. If you are, especially if you are a woman

and it's another woman, it doesn't even matter if you're close to her or not because that's your ego. Like just make sure every woman is okay. Like from woman to woman, I see something's wrong. Are you okay? And the impact that that had on you, whether it was from very close friends or not so close friends, is, you know, invaluable. It is. And it's so important.

I'm glad that you said, even if it's someone that you are not close to, you know, from woman to woman, when we understand what this journey is like on this earthly plane, you know what I mean? And it's like it's a universal journey. I don't care the color of your skin, what language you speak. we've got some universal struggles. Right. And so I really I'm with you. I feel like that's part of what we're here to do as women is to help each other. Right. And part of that is sharing our stories, you know, and being able to use the wisdom that we collect along the way to help others, you know. Yeah. And there's a lot of wisdom in the book. And you talk very openly about your marriage with Will. And you guys are when you got married, you made a very

sacred vow to each other that divorce wasn't an option yeah it was like because as you read you know i i wasn't interested in having like the wedding because i was like first of all we're doing something really serious here you know i don't have i don't have time for a wedding that's a great way to put it yeah you know like if this is so fucking serious why do we have Yeah, I'm like, this is serious shit. I don't have time to be thinking about bridesmaids and what fucking dress I'm wearing. I'm about to fucking commit myself to you forever

and I'm about to have a baby. Like, this is not what I thought my life to be, right? And so I wanted to go to the mountaintop. I was like, look, we need to get with God and figure this out. Like, this is serious. We got to commit to each other in a spiritual way. Because you guys had a very spiritual connection

from the time you met. Yeah, we did. And so when we were outside on that log in his mother's backyard and he was talking about a prenup. And I was just like, if we're going to talk about the end at the beginning, just don't marry me. I'm not interested. I'm OK. I don't want it. And, you know, he was like, I get it. He was like, I, you know, I don't think we need a prenup. If you don't think we need a prenup, we don't need a prenup. And I said, I'm telling you, we're going to work through everything. That was my sacred vow that day.

Right. And so, and he looked to me and he said, okay. And so in that moment for me, that was my mountaintop moment. That was like my moment with God saying, we, I am going to, we are going to work through everything, you know. And it's not about money and all of that. It's about that moment of making that commitment and that vow. And let me tell you, it's not an easy vow to keep because ultimately when you're talking about being with somebody forever, forever, I talked about in the book, you're going to go through that jungle together. And you're going to get to see what shows up, what doesn't show up in one another.

But that's what a marriage is, right? You're going to have your honeymoon stages and then you're going to have your hell stages. But it's just such a crock of shit that people don't talk about that when you're getting married. But that's the problem, Chelsea. That's why I feel like the ceremony is not the way you should start a wedding because it's setting up this fantasy. Yeah. And I knew my marriage was not going to be a fantasy, right? I knew that from the gate.

I didn't know then, but that I was just going to run into my shit. That's really what I was scared of. Well, I think so many of us believe that, like, we have our shit, we have our shit, and then some guy is going to come along and be like, I see your shit, and I'm going to take care of your shit. Yeah, that's it. Don't worry about your shit. It's not shit with me.

Right. And it's like, no, it is. It is. Because it's ours. It's ours. And it's going to be really shitty. Yeah. It's going to be really shitty at times.

Yeah. I wonder how many women would be able to sit and listen to that conversation before getting married. Like, just so you know, this isn't going to be 20 years of bliss. Right. There are going to be many, many moments of despair and disappointment. Yes. I wish. God, I wish.

I don't mean to be a Debbie. Listen, weddings are great. I want to start there. No, you're not a Debbie. Right. But I feel like the marriage ceremony set up the way that it is now gives a really false impression of what marriage is going to be. You know, you have the white dress, you know, the princess of the day. It's a fairy tale.

And I'm like, yeah, that's not what you have moments of that. But a marriage to me, and I've been learning along the way, it's really a holy path of purification. You know, it's like there is nothing like an intimate partner to make you have to look at your stuff and clean it up, you know, for each person involved. And because it's in that intimate partnership where you really get to the nitty gritty, you really get to those buttons, you know, that are the deep. There is like a minefield. And you have to have two willing participants. Yeah, you do. Because somebody could be a seeker like yourself and somebody could be a non-seeker and be

like, I'm not interested in all of this. You know what I mean? I was just on vacation with some girlfriends in Mallorca and one of my friends was telling me about her husband and she's like, he's seeking out all this stuff. He's seeking out all this stuff. I go, that's great. Why don't you go with him and seek it out? And she's like, I have no interest in any of that.

And I was like, but you're okay for him to go do it, right? And she's like, yeah, I just want him to go figure his shit out. And I thought, interesting, because like, you know, you can have two people who are seeking and it can cause a lot of you know it can be fractious but you can also sometimes people just need to go and be on their own yes and then come back that's right and that I feel like in long-term relationships that is an inevitable passage where you have to go on your own yeah there's no shortcut for saving time but saving money is simple just combine your car and home insurance with Bel Air Direct and save. Get a quote at BelAirDirect.com.

When I was 14 years old, I was kidnapped and held captive for nine months. I survived and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them. I'm Elizabeth Smart and these are the Survivor Files. I just remember this low taunting voice next to my ear saying shut up don't say anything every week i'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable i knew if he woke up without a doubt he was going to hurt me i started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed and i just started screaming they are abducted stalked controlled and nearly silenced but these aren't stories about what's taken from them There's stories about what it takes to make it out alive.

Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home. This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club,

part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island to deserve the same level of discourse. I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having. I'm going to have to look up this story.

I'm obsessed, I'm obsessed. From best-selling authors and your favorite BookTok creators to the latest pop culture moments, nothing is off the table. It's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters, then that is a Trojan horse. Whether you're looking for literary deep dives, smart pop culture conversations

or a community of readers who love to think a little too much, you're in the right place. Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get

your podcasts. See you between the pages. You talk about that in the book, that you guys have been separated for many years. Yeah. Six years,

well, when you wrote the book it was six years? Yeah, it was six years. Six years at the Oscars you were separated, six years at the Oscars is what you said in the book. But you're not divorced.

No. And you have no plans to get divorced. No. So talk to us about that. I'm down with it. I think this is a great new way of thinking about marriage. Well, you know, that's new, the not getting divorced part. That's new.

Okay. Yeah, because in 2016, I was definitely— Thinking about it. Oh, yeah. Well, 2016 was when Trump was elected, so I think a lot of people were thinking a lot of things. Re-evaluating. We'll just put that on him for now. But okay, so you were thinking about it, but you didn't take the steps to do it, did you?

I didn't take the steps to do it. Never, you know, never sought a lawyer, but it wasn't that I wasn't thinking about it because I was just like, all right, how do I do this? How do I uncouple consciously? I don't want to do it from a place of resentment, from a place of anger. I don't want to create just a messy bloodshed, right? And so I was really trying to figure that out, working on myself, getting to a place of, like, peaceful resolve between us, which took a lot longer than I expected, you know, several, several, several years. And then when Will finished Emancipation, a huge shift happened in him.

I think that was a really difficult movie for him to shoot. A lot of stuff came up for him. And that was when he asked me to get back into some therapeutic settings with him. And we started doing some deep work in a way that we had never done before. Then he got nominated. And he was like, listen, there's nobody else that I want by my side during this time. You know, because we were still family, right? And he was like, you know, will you do this run with me?

And I was like, absolutely. Of course. You know, and what was the like? So you guys were living separately. We were living separately. I had bought I had bought a house because I really needed talking about needing to go on your separate journey. I had gone on several separate journeys and just trying to get to a place of happiness within myself, place of peace and really making peace with what is, you know, just like trying to detox from a romanticized version of myself, as well as the romanticized version of will and a romanticized version of our togetherness. Because even though I might not have had the white wedding romantic version, I had to really come to the understanding that I had a romantic idea of what I wanted our connection to look like. I wanted this masterpiece of connection between Will and I. Now, how do you have a masterpiece of connection with someone else if you don't have it with yourself? And that's what I had to learn. really detoxing from the idea that it was his job

to make me happy because I believed I sat here and I helped you get every fucking thing you wanted you need to now help me get the dream I wanted which is connection between us

damn it you know and I had to really recognize that that wasn't something he could give me even if he tried because I wasn't willing to give it to really know have an intimate relationship with myself and deal with my shit and so in that six years period that's what I had been doing so now we're in these therapeutic settings and we're really doing some deep work really deep work and so when we got to the Oscars we

were in a really good place, you know, and doing this deep work together. And then. Yeah. Well, I think you should talk about it because I think people wonder what you were thinking and what, I mean, it's in the book. You talk about it in the book. I mean, so you don't have to get into it, but I think you were as surprised as anyone else was. I was super surprised. At first, because he had been going back and forth to the backstage and And I was like, oh, wow, when he got up. When Chris said what he said, I rolled my eyes because I knew. When I first saw Chris's name as one of the presenters, I remember saying to Will, I was like, oh, no.

I was like, I hope he plays nice tonight, you know. Because Chris and I had buried our beef, you know, after 2016 and that whole misunderstanding. He apologized. I apologized to him. We were in a good place. I hadn't spoken to him since. But I just kept thinking, I was like, ah, he's not going to be able to help himself, you know? And I just had this, like, my bubble guts, bubble guts.

And so Will was going back and forth backstage. And then when Chris said what he said, I looked to Will as to say, you believe this shit? Right? And I wasn't upset about what Chris said about me because I'm going to be okay. It was the idea of I had known so many horrible stories about young people who had committed suicide because they had alopecia, people who were suffering in silence and in shame because of alopecia. And I was just like, I was thinking about my alopecia community and how on this world stage it was okay to make fun of alopecia. And then Will gets up.

And I'm like, is this a skit? He talked to Chris backstage and he didn't say anything to me. And then Chris, how he's reacting, it's kind of like, oh, here comes Mr. Smith. And I was like, oh, shit, this is a skit. And then from where I'm sitting, when Will swung, it looked like Chris slipped the shot. I didn't know he had made contact. And especially after Chris was still standing, because I'd seen Will knock professional fighters down in the ring. Like, he's a heavy hitter.

Yeah, well, he was trained. Yeah, he was trained. He's a heavy hitter. So when he turned around and he started coming back downstage, I was like, oh no, this is not a joke. Something is wrong here. And now I can see that Will's not necessarily in present time. So he comes and he sits down and I just grab his hand And I look at him, and I said, are you okay? Chris comes down to the stage, and he starts speaking to me again. At the commercial break. At the commercial break, and he says, I meant no harm.

And at that time, I was so confused and so disrupted because I'm really worried about Will because Will has never done anything like this before. I don't know what's going on. I have no idea. I don't know what's happening with him, and I'm really worried about him. And I'm like, Chris, I can't do this right now. This is about some old shit. I can't.

And then Chris. But Will's going off. He's going off again. So Denzel comes over, and he's leaning on Will to just calm him down. Chris finishes his whole thing. Denzel, Bradley Cooper take care of Will, which I'm so grateful for because I was just at a loss. I was at a loss.

And then his publicist and my publicist come over, and she's like, you know, Chris left the building. He's not going to press charges. And I was like, press charges for what? And she's like, Will hit Chris. And I looked at Will, and I said, you hit Chris? You actually hit Chris? And he said, yeah. And I said, okay.

And that's when I knew. I said, all right. I might not have walked in here as your wife, but I'm leaving here as your wife. Because we're going to have to get through this together. You know? Yeah. You know? So that's, I have to say that the Oscars brought us closer.

So, you know, our dynamic has. Because you knew that he was in pain. I knew that he was in pain. I knew that he was going through a lot. I knew a lot that the public didn't know, you know, because we had been in these therapeutic spaces together. And so I knew I had to be by his side. And just because, you know, everybody wants to ride in the limo. That's real talk, right?

It was this moment when I really realized that next level of commitment and love. Because this is about us walking each other home. This is about us helping each other heal. walking each other to those sacred places within as well as those sacred places without where I had to get really deep resolve around that's what the journey's about and that we are two people

that came into this relationship at a very young age with a lot of trauma and thus not having a lot of information. our traumas how we acted our traumas out on one another you know and just learning how not to take that personally and just realizing that we're walking each other home and that that's about being able to hold each other's hands in those dark caves with the gremlins and the gargoyles and, you know, all of the monsters. Right.

When you say everyone wants to ride in the limo, not everybody wants to ride when there's no limo. Nobody wants to go in a haunted house on the spooky bus. I mean, it couldn't be more true, you know? I mean, everybody knows that. I mean, when you're a celebrity, I mean, it's great for celebration, and then when something goes wrong, you look around and you're like, well, fuck.

Yeah, it's like, where is everybody? Yeah. So may I ask you what the status is now of you guys? What's your relationship? You're still married. We're still married. We've got that going. Yeah, we got that going. And we've really been concentrating on just that healing component together. Yeah. And taking it one day at a time, Chelsea, trying to figure it out. I mean, yeah, very, very admirable, very at your honesty. And yeah, it's very I'm really just blown away by it. And I love it. I mean, it's just good for the world. Yeah, because that's what life is that, you know, this idea that these perfect picture, you know, you look at like, from my perspective, I remember watching that night thinking, what's going on with him? like that's not who he is what's happening to him he must be going through something either with you with his person i mean it's never about another person only it's about everything we've experienced through our lives and it is our trauma revisiting us and when we're when it's not you know we become self-actualized when we dig deep and find out what really happened and why our

behaviors are the way they are and why you know but i remember thinking that that's not who he is Right. Which is why I understood why people thought, you know, with me putting out or assisting in that false narrative of me being this adulterous wife, which was not true, why people automatically thought Jade is the problem. Oh, yeah. We skipped over all that, that whole part, because I just don't even think that's worth mentioning because that's really not. Right. I mean, it is because it's part of your story, but that's not part. It's there's so much more there than that. And I think it's important to remember and recognize when people are in pain, because when people are acting in pain, that is not who they are. And I don't know Will personally, but I can imagine that he's a very, very loving, decent human being. He is so loving.

And I've heard that a million times. And so is Chris Rock. That's right. Chris Rock is an amazing, loving human being. He really is. And that's why, you know, even when people ask me, you know, about Chris and all this stuff he said on Netflix and what have you, and I'm like, you know what? when people are hurting that's not that's not their true that's not their true right so that's not even Chris on that stage honestly like with with all the things that he said I you mean in

his special in his special right and because I've had the opportunity to spend time with Chris I've seen that part of Chris you know what I mean and I know I know what his eyes look like that night When he said to me, I meant no harm. Yeah. And I know that to be true to this day. Yeah. Even with that special, I know he meant no harm. Yeah.

You know? Right. Right. You know, he's just, you know, it's just that hurt place in us. And, you know, I've been there. When I'm hurt, things that I've done and things that I've said out of that hurt place, it's not me. What did Willow have to say about reading the book? she just you know first of all she's an avid reader so she just finds me fascinating which

is awesome you know what I mean because she's like a cool kid you know what I mean well she only she finds you and again me fascinating which is even better yeah she really does so she's enjoyed it she just can't believe the life that I've lived you know because I've I've told her stories I can't believe it yeah you know but then reading it it's like mom I can't what made you And you're out here worried about me doing this. I can't believe you. I didn't give you half the problems you gave Cam, you know, like. So, yeah, she's had a good time.

I'm meeting it. There's no shortcut for saving time, but saving money is simple. Just combine your car and home insurance with Bel Air Direct and save. Get a quote at BelAirDirect.com. when i was 14 years old i was kidnapped and held captive for nine months i survived and i've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them i'm elizabeth smart and these are the survivor files i just remember this low taunting voice next to my ear saying Shut up. Don't say anything.

Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable. I knew if he woke up, without a doubt, he was going to hurt me. I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed, and I just started screaming. They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced. But these aren't stories about what's taken from them. There's stories about what it takes to make it out alive. Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home. This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island to deserve the same level of discourse. I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and the conversations

everyone can't stop having. I'm going to have to look up this story. I'm obsessed, I'm obsessed. From best-selling authors and your favorite BookTok creators to the latest pop culture moments, nothing is off the table. It's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters,

then that is a Trojan horse. Whether you're looking for literary deep dives, smart pop culture conversations or a community of readers who love to think a little too much, you're in the right place. Listen to Pro Society

on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. See you between the pages. Well, this podcast was supposed to take callers, but you know what?

Why don't we just leave this as a special episode with Jada? It's a very special episode. Yeah, let's not because this was a very powerful conversation and I think I think it is just

such strong messaging. A, you know, when you talk about a woman putting out all of her stuff, it's not done as much as it's done by men. And when it is done by men, it's not as emotionally at the surface. Like you're reading this book and you were like, it will bring your emotions to the surface on behalf of what it means to be a woman and all the pressure. But the reason why women don't do this is because when they write the truth like this, and so many times were thought of as so fierce or so hard, you know, and when you go through the history, if you think of people like bell hooks, or you think of Gloria

Steinem and the way that they were perceived rather than just because they were truth tellers it's it's so nice to see more women saying no this is my truth yeah this is the hardcore nature of what what's happening and this is what's happened in my life and to know how many lives each one of us has led you know to know how crazy it is you know that you could be I mean from coming from Baltimore and doing all of the things that you've done but having an inner compass and a north star in a sense yeah that you're still here you're thriving yep and you're sitting across from me and you're beautiful thank you inside and out thank you and i just think it's a victory and i feel all women should be sharing their stories in this way and to be louder and prouder of who we

all are there you go because it's not just men's stories that are important this is how we help heal each other and this is how we all kind of come together and give each other room to make mistakes and grow and you're still there and you're still filled with love, you know? Yeah, definitely. And amen to that, you guys. I mean, that's our podcast for the day. Yay! That was good.

Oh, love it. Love you. Okay, the book is called Worthy. You're gonna get it and you're gonna thank me. And it's by Jada Pinkett Smith. Yes. Okay, second shows have been added. For those of you coming to see my new stand-up tour, which you have to come because I'm having

the best time. We added a second show into Cincinnati, Los Angeles, which is actually October 13th. There are still tickets for October 13th show in Los Angeles. We added second shows in Chicago, the Chicago Theater, Portland, Oregon, San Francisco. They're both almost completely sold out. Detroit, Michigan. And then we added a second show in Cincinnati in the daytime at five o'clock p.m. I'm doing my first show because I don't have a night where I can go back. So we added a second show at 5 p.m., and the original show is at 8 p.m. Original show is sold out. Second show, tickets are available, Cincinnati. I'm also coming to Cleveland on October 20th, and then I'll be in Columbus October 21st, and Pittsburgh October 22nd. So those three shows, I still have tickets

available, and you can go to ChelseaHandler.com for other tickets and other information, and if you want to buy some of our merch, that's all available on ChelseaHandler.com. And yeah, guys, I'll see you on the road. If you'd like advice from Chelsea, shoot us an email at DearChelseaPodcast at gmail.com. And be sure to include your phone number. Dear Chelsea is edited and engineered by Brad Dickert, executive producer Catherine Law. And be sure to check out our merch at ChelseaHandler.com. I survived nine months in captivity, and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them.

I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are The Survivor Files. Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable, abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced. These are stories about what it takes to make it out alive. Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home.

Pro Society is a weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse. Each week, we're connecting the dots between books, the Internet and pop culture with your favorite writers, book talk creators and plenty of overthought opinions. Yeah, I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed. Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Hoda Kotb, host of the podcast Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb. You know, I'm always searching for inspiration and useful tools to maximize joy. Like when my friend Henry Winkler offered advice to aspiring actors and really anybody hoping to stand out. You're not hired just to fill time and space.

You're hired to fill the space with you. Listen to Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human