Life with Nat - EP116: KATE THORNTON

Episode Date: May 14, 2025

Nat's joined by the wonder woman we all wish was our best mate... Kate Thornton! Such a broad chat, from career reflection and advice, challenges of live TV and radio (especially during huge news moments), and the merits of a varied lunch. Discover more from Kate via her instagram - https://www.instagram.com/thekatethornton Please subscribe, follow, and leave a review. xxx You can find us in all places here; ⁠⁠https://podfollow.com/lifewithnat/view⁠⁠ INSTA: @natcass1 We're also on Facebook now too: ⁠⁠https://www.facebook.com/lifewithnatpod⁠⁠ A 'Keep It Light Media' Production Sales, advertising, and general enquiries: ⁠⁠[e-mail]⁠⁠ SHOW INFO: Life with Nat - it’s me! Natalie Cassidy and I’ll be chatting away to family, friends and most importantly YOU. I want to pick people's brains on the subjects that I care about- whether that’s where all the odd socks go, weight and food or kids on phones. Each week I will be letting you into my life as i chat about my week, share my thoughts on the mundane happenings as well as the serious. I have grown up in the public eye and have never changed because of it. Life with Nat is the podcast for proper people. Come join the community. ♥️ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, welcome to Life With Nair. I hope you're all doing really, really well. This morning I have a really big treat for you. I have got Kate Thornton with me. Hi, Kate. Good morning. How are you? I'm really good. Thank you so much for coming on. That's all right. It feels really weird to be sat here without me having a load of questions in front of me to ask you. Absolutely. And I loved coming on White Wine Question Time. It was real fun. Thank you. We loved having you. How is it going? Because I actually got you on tape because I've known you a long time now. Over the years, I feel like our paths have crossed. It is decades. It spans over three decades. Yeah. Blimey. Which is amazing considering we're only

27. I know. Sheer foetuses when we started. A twinkle in eyes. Even twinkles. Yeah, it's been a long time. Yeah, go on, what do you want to know? How can I help? I just want to know everything because obviously you have a little look before coming on. And I just think it's quite amazing all of your achievements, how amazing you look, how brilliant you sort of hold yourself. And I just think all the women that listen to this and men will just want to know your secrets really. Because you're, I hope you don't mind, you know, talking about age. I know you're really honest. You're 10 years older than me. I'm 42 and you look younger than I do. That's not true. But no, genuinely, I just want to know,

I just want to know everything just right from the start, because I've just taken the plunge in leaving EastEnders recently. How are you feeling about that? Those big life decisions? Really big. And I feel really good about it. I feel brave and I feel proud that I've done it. Brilliant. And things are going really well and stuff's coming up and it's all new. But I think the last week or so, I've really had a little bit of that sort of demon. The fear.

The little bit of fear going, have you done the right thing? Money's not going to be as regular. And a little bit panicked and a little bit anxious in that was really safe and oh, is it all going to be all right? And just feeling the pressure a little bit anxious in that was really safe and oh is it all gonna be alright and just feeling the pressure a little bit and looking at your career I mean you were 21 you know the youngest person ever to start editing a magazine well to edit that magazine yeah that's my yes yeah I mean that is so young and I feel like I was really young starting stuff out. You were even younger. Well I was 10.

I mean it was a bit ridiculous. I mean. I know. I mean. I know it's a bit mad isn't it? It is but listen I totally get where you're coming from because you know I say this a lot and I say a lot at the moment to my son who's sort of 17 next week so he's setting out on his adult life journey.

Yeah. Which is like sometimes just remember fear can also be excitement. I mean, there's a really fine line between those two emotions. And if you have the faith in yourself to turn fear into excitement, because, you know, well, even if it doesn't work to plan, you'll still learn something. That's never a failing. That's a lesson. Yes.

And the good stuff shouldn't be easy. And it has never been easy. I think that's also important. But as I sort of sit here now at 52, and I think this is only really recent, the one thing I wish I could bestow to somebody much younger than me, IEU, is back yourself, right? You've always come good. You'll get there. It might be sticky.

It might be uncomfortable. It might be a little bit fearful, but you'll always come good. I just think, God, why has it taken me 52 years to be like that? Why did I, I mean, I think about my 20s and 30s and in my 20s and 30s, words like anxiety didn't really get used in the way

that they do now. I look back now and I realize, my God, I had a lot of sleepless nights over stuff that, you know, now you would say, God, I'm having a bit of a struggle with anxiety at the moment. And again, it's just like, actually, life experience is that this too shall pass mantra, which is, it will pass. Life should never be a trajectory of just good times, because how can the good times be good if you don't have the bad times? If you don't have the bad, the balance. The more challenging times to offset them. Of course. I don't think there's any bloody secret really now, apart from,

I think Madonna said it best recently. She said, you know what the most controversial thing I've ever done is? And you think Madonna? Oh, my God, the sex book. What's it going to be? Where are we going? She was just like, I stuck around. And I think for me now, that's the measure of success is, am I still getting out of bed every day to do something I love?

And if I am, then I'm winning. And it's that. And you are, aren't you? I do. You're doing Greatest Hits radio every day. Is that amazing? Are you enjoying that? Yeah.

And that's something I haven't done. Gosh, I haven't done that. I do six days a week on the radio at the moment. I haven't had a proper job since 1996 like that. That's a long time. You're going nearly 30 years. Sorry, I'm having a bit of a hot flush. I'm going to just take my shoes off. Yeah, no, absolutely. Whoa. You've got that fun bit to come next now. I know I have. I know I have.

Jesus Christ. I'm like a sweaty onion. Just layers. F***ing layers. Anyway, that's better. Oh, I can concentrate now. What was I saying? What were we saying?

We were saying sticking around. Sticking around, yeah. And having a proper job. You were saying you haven't had a proper job. But the thing is to remember to take it back to your situation, right? Which is, you shouldn't want to do necessarily, certainly if you've come into a creative industry like ours, you shouldn't want to do anything that's not going to be a good thing. You shouldn't want to do anything that's not going to be a good thing.

You shouldn't want to do anything that's not going to be a good thing. You shouldn't want to do anything that's not going to be a good thing. You shouldn't want to do anything that's not going to be a good thing. You shouldn't want to do anything that's not going to be a good thing. You shouldn't want to do anything that's not going to be a good thing. You shouldn't want to do anything that's not going to be a good thing. You shouldn't want to do anything that's not going to be a proper job. But the thing is to remember to take it back to your situation, right? Which is, you shouldn't want to do necessarily if you certainly if you've come into a creative industry like ours, the same thing year in, year out, day in, day out. So you leaving EastEnders after all of this time when you started there when you were 10 to 32 years, it's been a mainstay in your world. Yeah. Well, I had eight years off.

Yeah. But you still went back. So it's still being that sort of thread thatay in your world. Yeah. Well, I had eight years off. Yeah, but you still went back. So it's still being that sort of thread that's stitched through your life. Yes. It's really healthy to step away sometimes and go, what else is interesting me? And the way you've flown with this podcast, you'd be nuts to not pursue it. You'd be nuts to not do what you're doing now, but you'd also be probably quite conceited and arrogant if you didn't have an element of, oh my god, am I doing the right thing? And you're none of those things now. So of course

it's entirely natural to feel all of the things that you're feeling right now. And do you know what? If it doesn't work out, you'll learn a load of things from it and you'll go back to the drawing board and you'll come up with something else, because that's you. Yes. Not everything has to work. Not everything should work. I just think it's a lot of pressure though, isn't it, for us? Throughout life, again, you're earning a crust. All of us are doing that.

No matter what we're doing, it's all relative to each of us, all the listeners, everybody, whether you need to earn £ pounds, 100 pounds, whatever it is, that financial pressure. And I've been used to that regularity. And people don't talk about it in our industry a lot. We do make choices because we need to earn money. So you know what I mean? I've made choices. I went into Big Brother. I didn't want to go into Big Brother. Yes, I had a fine time, but I did that because I had a huge tax bill. I'm very open about that. People say, you know, they're doing it for the experience.

Are you really? Some people might be doing it, but I don't need to raise my profile. I never needed to do that. But you do need to pay your tax bill. And that's just really honest, Matt. And yeah, I think people forget that. Yeah, you know, there are facets and aspects of this business where you can earn really great money. But for the most part, you earn a nice living when you're working. When you walk onto the EastEnders set, you're not amongst a ton of millionaires.

You're amongst a bunch of freelancing, jobbing actors who are on a contract that earn a nice living whilst they're working. But also, they equally might be not in any episodes for the next three months in a way that is meaningful and they can't meet their bills, so they have to tuck into their savings. And this is the stuff that, and aren't they lucky to have savings? No, and also, like you say, with EastEnders, I find that people really, soap in general, I suppose, you are right. People think you lead this amazing lifestyle. It's really hard work. As you know, you know, Tam's a great friend of yours. I don't know

Tam's in, who used to be there. Kate Fort, she's like a Corrie lifer. Absolutely. But you never know what you're doing till the Thursday before. You can't plan anything. The hours are really, really long if you're busy. That's one of the reasons I had to take the jump because I was missing everything with the kids. And Joni's eight, Eliza's 14, nearly 15. And isn't it funny that when you have babies, you feel guilty about leaving them. Right.

And now they need you more. The older they get, they need you more, don't they? And that is so true, you more, don't they? And that is so true, you know, and in ways that are different. And I think, you know, I've gone back, I've gone on the radio five, six days a week now. Yeah.

Because I can, because, you know, my son's turning 17 next week. I've just wrapped up learner plates downstairs for his birthday. I just don't know how quickly. It's madness. How quickly we've got here is just so quick now. I remember seeing you and him out somewhere and I think he was about eight. Yeah, well don't you quite. It's madness. How quickly we've got here is just so quick now. I remember seeing you and him out somewhere and I think he was about eight.

Yeah, well, don't you quite? When we did the Strictly tour, he was a baby. He was in a push chair, not even walking, actually. I think it was 18 months. Yeah, maybe he would have been because I had Eliza in my tummy. There you go. So there you are. Yeah. Crazy. Did you know what? That time

has gone so quickly now. And what I did in the intervening years, especially because, you know, I'm a single parent, I just made the decision that my work had to fit around my parenting. And I didn't want to be absent at the school gates. So that meant there were certain jobs that were offered to me that I just had to say no to because it didn't fit with that ambition for my life, which was to walk my son to school, to predominantly be there to pick him up more than I wasn't. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. And to just be present because I have one baby that I get to raise.

Yes. This is my one shot. Now, as I sit here talking to you today, those 17 years have been the best of my life. And when I lie awake at night and I can't get to sleep, and I try to sort of dig around in my memory bank for the things that will soothe me and set me off into a night's sleep, those are the moments that I think about. Not work. Not work at all. No, it's the memories.

And I love my job. I love my job. Yeah, yeah, of course. And I love what I do. But it's him. It's being his mum, it's the moment. And I love my job. I love my job and I love what I do. But it's him. It's being his mum. It's those moments. It's those walks to school.

It's the mucking about in the park after school. Pockets full of snacks, holding his sweaty little hot hands. Bath time and bedtime. Reading stories. Oh, I love bath time. Yeah, absolutely. And now, you know, gosh, if you gave me a day back of my life and said, go anywhere, do anything, I'd just go back to one of those days

and it wouldn't be any any out of the ordinary day. It would just be that. So with all of that in, you know, as your mate, I could say to you with my with my both hands on heart, you'll never regret putting the kids first. No, I know I won't do that. If you're in the position to do that, I mean some people aren't. We say I'm very privileged to sit here going, well, you know, it's a choice.

For some people it just isn't, you know, and I really understand that. Of course, and I'm sure that I'll, we both have come on in the past, maybe missed things because you're taking on a job and you know, it's not easy. But you'll laugh this morning, right? There's a VE Day celebration at the school. So I've got Joni in a little red and white and blue bows and what have you. And I said, I look forward to seeing you. I said, because I can make the tea. It's at quarter to three and they're doing a little fairy cake and tea and you go in, you know. I said, so I'm really looking forward to seeing you. She said, I don't want you to come. I said, I beg your pardon. She said, oh no, when there's no parents there I get to sit on the table where you can eat more cake. I said, well, I've changed

everything babe so I can make these events. She said, oh, rolling her eyes. She said, oh, I don't really want you there. I said, oh, for God's sake. I said, but I am going. She did change her mind. I dropped her to school. I am going, yeah. And actually these years that you've got at the moment, you're not living on borrowed time,

but there's a lot more of that to come. So you've got to find where you fit with them and how you can be important in their world. And I do feel as time goes by, and as you get older, you hear of friends passing or friends' husbands passing quickly in their forties due to illnesses. And you become more aware, I think, of time and how precious it is. And I feel lucky just sitting here at nearly 42 because, you know, you visit Great Ormond Street and you see children that are ill or terminally ill. And I think life experience brings that.

Exactly. Well, you've dealt with loss now. You understand that. Yeah, I do understand it. Yeah. Well, I think a lot of us, you know, we all go through grief. I've had quite a lot of grief. But you are right about that. When I sit with Joni in bed, and I read her that story, and you just watch them sleep because they turn back into the baby, don't they, when they're asleep. And then you take pictures of them and then they find them on your camera reel and they're like, you're a freak. Why are you taking pictures of me asleep? And you're like, one day you'll do the same. Don't you worry.

And I know it's creepy, but it's wrapped in love. Well, the other way around, Kate, when you've got a 14-year-old and our mates over, and me and Mark, we fell asleep on the sofa because we were knackered on a Friday night, and we woke up and they've taken loads of pictures of us on our phones. That's a good one.

That's a cracker. I love it. That's a good one. That's a cracker. Brilliant. I love it. There are very few things that you can be certain of in life. But you can always be sure the sun will rise each morning. You can bet your bottom dollar that you'll always need air to breathe and water to drink.

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Because it's dutsy to do to rock a boat that wasn't rocking, right? And that's effectively what you've done. But also because opportunity came a-knocking. And I don't know if you see it the way I see it with you, but I could see this coming, right? Because you'd popped up on a couple of others' podcasts, and I was like, oh, I'm so glad they've gotten out on She's Hilarious, when you did like Josh and Rob Beckett.

Yeah, yeah, parenting hell, yeah. That's it. Thank you. I was like, oh, she's so good. I'm so glad. And I could hear their reaction to you. And I was like, yeah, that's the funny Nat I know. And like, they're seeing you and not Sonia. And, yes. And then suddenly, you're in that brilliant position where everybody knows who you are, but they don't know you. They know your character. And then when you open you up to them and you are as phenomenally funny and lovely and warm as you are, it's a revelation and you get this kind of second coming almost, a second chance, a crack at the whip. And you'd be nuts to not run with this right now, especially with the girls where they

are. And also just remembering that, you know, podcast is a growth industry and sadly scheduled television isn't. It isn't. You've got to go where the eyeballs and the audience are. Absolutely. Well, I wanted to, this is what I wanted to talk to you because your podcast is so successful and it's been going, am I right, five years now?

Six and a half, babe. Six and a half? Yeah. I know. Six and a half years. Six and a half? Yeah. I know. Six and a half years. How many episodes have you done? About 500. Wow.

And when you started it, because obviously I was late to the party. Yeah. But when you started it, did you think about it being your career, you know, a big, big part of your life? I hoped. That it was going to go for a long time. You hoped. I hoped. about it being your career, you know, a big, big part of your life. I hoped. That it was going to go for a long time, you hoped. I hoped.

So seriously, like, when I first started pitching this idea around, I remember going into, you know, lovely A-caste who we've worked with for the last six and a half years. I know lovely Ross Adams. Ah, they were just such a great team over there. But when I went in, it was, you know, I mean, so we've been launched six and a half years. It's probably more like seven, seven and a half years ago that I went in.

And podcasting was barren in terms of the landscape, comparatively, right? In as much as, you know, literally there were conversations around, well, we're not sure if women listen to podcasts because there's nothing there to test it. Right. So well-being was doing really well. So Fern Cotton was in there early and she was doing Happy Place. And I said, but Fern's doing really well.

And they were like, yeah, but that's well-being. And I was like, OK, good point. And the stuff that worked really well in podcasting then, imagine it like Dubai before all the skyscrapers moved in. Yeah, or, you know, the first time Celebrity Big Brother happened, and they'd be like, we're not sure about reality telly. Yeah, it was kind of, I've always been drawn to those sort of spaces of experimentation. And I like to be in early. So literally, you know, I'm one of those losers, that's one of the first at the

party going, I hope somebody else turns up soon. I don't think that's loserish. I think it's because you're the way you are. Curious, curious. And they were like, look, faith works really well, comedy works really well, sport works really well and well being. And I was like, but yeah, but I don't really that's not what I do. I'm an interviewer. Yeah. And I want to tell long form stories in a way that sort of flies in the face of what was at the time, this whole obsession with, you know, 140 characters on Twitter or a minute long reels. I just thought that there was an appetite for brilliant people's stories to breathe. And that's what I feel like I can do. So they were like, well, let's try.

And we did, we all rolled up our sleeves and we, we, we dived in together. And, and it's been such an exciting ride. I've loved it. let's try and we did we all rolled up our sleeves and we we dived in together and and it's been such an exciting ride. I've loved it. It's my dream show. It is an amazing show. You get amazing guests on don't you? Yeah we've had really really like last week was Stephen Fry and and then Amanda Ebington. You had Amanda on. Yeah amazing. Yeah and then next week I'm interviewing Ed Davey, leader of the Liberal Democrats.

Then we have astronauts Tim Peake, we'll have Katherine Ryan next. Yeah. I mean, it's the back catalogue as well. Pass them on to me, will you? Yeah, would you like some? Would you? Just a favour. What's lovely is building the team up on this as well.

And I work with a lot of very young people as a part of the podcast world. I love that. I love how they come at things because it's that exchange of knowledge, the power, you know, I learn from them as much as they might learn from me. So I've loved it now and it's given me autonomy. And I think in a way that, you know, the people I work for on the podcast are my audience. They decide whether I stay or go.

And that's kind of as it should be. The audience decides with their downloads. It's as simple as that. Oh, well, that's true. That's true. There's no commissioning editor in the way. There's no, oh, change of guard and network and oh, you're in or you're out. You know, it's none of that.

It's quite an honest exchange between you and the audience. I love that. I completely agree. And I think since starting this and again, because I'm, I don't know much about the podcast industry, I just knew that I wanted to do something which connected with the listener. So I have a business WhatsApp on my phone. Right. And it's genuine. So the

listeners have this number, and they message me all day. Now I don't do it all day, but I get back to people and I've created this community of people that are all like minded. And isn't it lovely? It's so lovely that even and I said it last night, I had a letter from a really, really special listener called Naomi and she sent me a framed picture for the first year anniversary. And she sent me this letter about how it's helped her in the year. And I know it sounds wanky, but I mean it. I thought if I could continue this just because I make her weak, I think I would continue

to do it. Because there are people who message me who are doing their chemo and they like the laugh and they sit and listen. You must get it all the time, but it's just people. You become part of their week. Friends, totally. I know a lot of my regular listeners, they share their moments with me. They give feedback on certain episodes.

Yeah. It is so exhilarating to build. I mean, call it what you like, community audience. I just think like you've just probably said it best, like minded people. And you work for them with them. But I ask them, Kay. I know when I've done a good episode, I'm like, oh, I can't wait for this one to download because, or to upload this so that people can listen to it.

Because I know this will really resonate with our crew. Yes. And that's what it is. But it's really interesting times, like, you know, like if I wanted to be really sort of put my business hat on with this, you know, when I started out at 21 as an editor of a magazine, I never envisaged a day when magazines wouldn't be the dominating force on the newsstands. There are no newsstands now, Nat. No.

Print will live in a very small niche way and it will become almost a luxury item. Yes. Like really fancy magazines. I was going to say your home and garden if you're into your fashion your vogue That sort of thing, you know Like my mom and dad now are slightly gutted that there's no paperboy near where they live to deliver their morning paper Because they'd still love that but it's not viable for the news. So you go Well, hang on a minute like 30 odd years ago that what look at how much our

Media has changed. Has changed. And it's this, it's the phone. It's changed everything. Social media. And I, you know, when I edited Smash Hits, we didn't even have the internet. You know, I didn't have an email account. We had the intranet and I had a mobile phone with an aerial and a freaking strap. Like a handbag. I had a mobile phone with an aerial and a fricking strap. Yeah.

Like a handbag. I had a pager. A pager, like I was a doctor. And so when I sit in now, I think, God, you know, I feel like we've lived through our own industrial revolution in terms of digital revolution. And there's a part of me that is really like the FOMO in me. I just want to know what's happening. How's that moving?

What's changing? Like with podcasting now, how much that's changed in the six and a half years I've been here. Well, I feel like it's changed since I started because now it's all video. It's all going video. That's my next focus is like we need to go video first. Because actually, it's really interesting. I do this show about the Royal Family. Yes, I saw True Royal TV. True Royalty, the Royal Beat. Yes, I saw. True Royal TV. True Royal TV, the Royal Beat, which has been on ITV recently. And so, one of the things I had to watch this week as part of research was a podcast that Megan Mark or Megan Sussex had done with the woman who'd founded IT Cosmetics.

So I thought, rather than listen to this, I'm going to watch it. Oh my God. It's like a piece of network television, but the ads are all host read, but there's programmatic ads mixed in. What I was looking at, I was like, okay, this is like, this is a bit of network tele mixed in with audio, with a YouTube facet. It's a homogenized version, a little bit of everything. And I need to be doing that. We need to be making this soup of a little bit of this, a little bit of that.

And so you can never sit still for long. No, but I like the part of me was like, Oh my God, he really, you know, like I got the FOMOs. So now I'm like, literally that call that I was on just when you, when I dialed in this morning was to my agent going, so when you speak to this person, you just ask them about YouTube this and their YouTube strategy for that because, you know, I'm curious. I want to keep making these conversations and bringing them to people wherever they are. And that's our job is to find the ears, to go with them. Kate, do you think it's amazing that when I'm out in the street, so a lot of people, as you know,

people recognize me from EastEnders and they know me. Yeah. And they'll go, this is a lot of the time, I'd say 80% of the time because I'm interested in asking them. And they'll go, oh, can I have a selfie? Oh, EastEnders, shame you left, blah, blah, blah, we love it.

Oh, we love you, love you on Instagram and your videos. And I go, thanks very much. I go, do you listen to podcasts? And they go, no. I know. And there is so many people that don't listen. There is. And that's where actually the likes of you- That's where I want to get.

That's exactly right. And that's exactly what I was going to say. That is that that's where the likes of you and I, where we come from a traditional media background, right? So people used to seeing you in their living rooms. Yep. It's our job to convert them because like, I, you know, when people say they don't listen to podcasts, and I have lots of friends that don't, by the way, part of me has to sit on my hands and go, you don't know what you're missing. It's like, in that phone on your screen is a little app and you open it and it is like opening the door to Narnia because

within there is a whole world of interest and education. And I love history podcasts. I love news podcasts because I have to listen and also I have to listen to lots of different types of podcasts to research my guests. So I get to really dip in and out of all different kinds of genres. But that's where I go to for my news now. You know, I listen regularly to the news agents, to newscast, to the rest is politics, because

it's like a palate cleanse for me. I can just enjoy it. I get all the news that I need in a way that's intelligent, nuanced, fact checked, contextualized. And I love that. Yeah, I think that is such a brilliant piece of advice, because I was only on here the other day saying that I've, I've stopped LBC and I've stopped, just stopped the news in general, because it really affects me. And I think I'm going to do that. I'm going to start listening to I tell you why I do that because they're not owned by a publisher who has a political bias. And what I like, for example, Roy Stewart and Alastair Campbell, you've got two men from different sides of the political fence that will have really complicated conversations that they break down into a really simple fashion so that the likes of you and I that are entry level when it comes to politics, can really understand it. They can give you some heritage and background as to, well, for example,

India, Pakistan at the moment, they'll break down how this came to be in a way that you won't find in a newspaper right now. And I find that really, really helpful and interesting. And I trust them. And it's about trust. And I think this is again where value sits right, is that people trust you because they feel like they know you and I hope people feel that they can trust me. And I think there's a value in that at the moment because we live in a world where of AI and fakery and algorithms, echo chamber pieces of content. And actually, what I'd really like, if you know the Mark Zuckerbergs of this world would listen is, I don't want to be fed more of the same. I want to be challenged in

my thinking. Use your power and your might on the internet to give me pause for thought. You know, you have a responsibility when you've got the ears and eyes of billions of people around the world to use that responsibly. And I don't think that's better to do. Responsibly and intelligently. Yeah, I don't think they do. No. It's ads first.

And I think actually, if you went community first, the ads would follow. You don't need any more money. We're in a really interesting time with how we use the internet and data at the moment. And I would just be so happy if somebody came in and went, actually, how do we best serve our community and then we'll monetize around it? Because I think it's the other way around at the moment. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But look at me, I'll be on the board of Meta before you know it now. Oh, I think you should think it's quite incredible. I get a lot of people I post, I always I always

have and I always will. And I promise you, it's not a thought thing. If I do a video on Instagram it's because I've thought of something immediately. I don't sit and think, oh what am I going to post today? So it'll just happen and I'll do the video and I'll put it down and I'll post it. I never redo something. I never look at what it looks like. Same as pictures. I've never been that way. I'll do a picture. People look at their picture. We'll do it again. Never been like it. So I'm very lucky. That's just me. That's the way it is. But the amount of messages I get from a stupid

video that say, thank you so much for coming on and having no makeup on. It just makes me feel a bit better because my whole feed is people looking perfect. And it makes me feel so good that you're just normal. And I think we've got, there's something about that, which is so simple, yet people really want normal, real things. So what I try to do is I try to sort of cheat the algorithms so that I seek out content that doesn't... Jar you.

Yeah. So that I can, because I don't want to live in a world where I just see and hear more of the same. I don't. But I think also we've become such passive consumers of the internet that we have to take a bit more accountability. It's a bit like saying, oh, I really don't like what's on BBC One or change the channel. That's right. That's so true. We've got to learn to change the channel so that actually then, you know, going back to people that don't listen to podcasts,

I really would love for somebody to take them by the hand into the podcast world and go, what about this? What about that? You know, do a tour and show them around the place. But maybe, but listen, maybe that's the thing. When I started mine, I just went up to people in the street and said, give me your phone. Let me show you the app. This is how you do it. I used to do the same. You know, but you can't do it all around the UK, but I might do that again soon. You just go somewhere and you just even if you're, you know, just showing people a little bit about it is, I think the way forward. I think it's

really important. Because you know what it is as well, especially as you know, sort of, for where I am in life, there are times when you don't necessarily, you know, want to be sociable, but you do want to have a conversation so you can just consume them, you can just be passive in that. And I think a podcast feed should be curated so that you feel like you've got your friends on download. That's right. So, oh, do I want a political conversation? Do I want to catch up on what's happened in the news this week? Download that. Do I want a bit of a laugh? Yeah. Oh, I'm going to listen to that in the car on the way to Sainsbury's. Oh, you know, oh, I'm going to be doing a bit of gardening. I might listen to a bit of White Wine Question Time. That would be nice.

So that you start to build up a playlist. Of all of your different moods and what you need at that time. So what's exciting with podcasting, I think, is that as much as it's grown exponentially, there's still... So much room! There's so much room. This is the tip of the iceberg. There's so much room.

But a lot of it is discoverability and people finding your podcast and knowing it's there and it being visible. And those are the challenges. Yeah. Whilst never forgetting that the most important thing is you've got to make something people want to give their time to. People are time poor and every week my listeners give me an hour of their time and never ever take that for granted. I completely, it is an honour with the stuff that's out there.

Be it on your phone, be it on YouTube, be it on the telly, be it on the radio to choose that. You know, many mornings I'll get in the car and I'm still a radio lover. I've listened to you, really, that you know. Thank you. I'll put you on or I'll put Radio 2 on or I'll put Virgin or whatever it is and there's certain programs that I will listen to because I like that show. Yeah. And it's the same right? It's the same but different. It's about choosing that you say your time really and where you're going to put your time and that is an honor if people are choosing to listen to us. Exactly and I also think like you and where you're going to put your time and that is an honor if people are choosing to listen to us. Exactly. And I also think like, you know, where you are in your life now in your

40s, I'm, you know, like we've said, I'm 10 years ahead of you. I've now got more of my working life, for example, behind me than I have in front of me. That sharpens your choices. Yes. Well, you go, okay, so what do I want to do for the next 20 years? You know, let's say, let's say I work until I'm 72. Right. So I work for the next 20 years. How do I want to fill my days? Because I already know that what I was doing 30 years ago doesn't even exist anymore. So part of me is going like you're planning for the unknown Kate, because who knows what the working world will look like in 10 years time, because it doesn't look like it did 10 years ago.

You can't be that early Kate. I know you're keen, but you haven't got a crystal ball. Not yet. Not yet. But I remain curious and fascinated. But I think where you are now, you're an anomaly because you started at 10, but you're kind of halfway through, more than halfway through your working life. What do you want the rest of it to look like? Those are the sort of questions you need to ask yourself whilst trying to be present as a parent, a partner and allowing yourself. And just being happy with yourself.

Yeah, and had to have change in interest, right? I always remember at school, my best friend Claire used to have the same sandwich every day and I never used to understand it, right? She used to have tuna and onion and it freaking stank. Stank. Right? But she would just have the same sandwich every day. I've never wanted to eat the same sandwich every day. And maybe therein lies the differences, right? But I think you're right. Yeah. And I don't want to do the same thing for the rest of my life. And I haven't. I have to some degree. It's same, same,

but different. You know? Yes. Yeah. And I think that's what happened with EastEnders. Yeah. I just didn't want to keep going to the same building as much as I miss it. I miss the people. You miss people terribly. It's a weird thing for 12 and a half years and obviously before that the people I've known for 32, but for 12 and a half years to visit the same building, see the same people and I'm not talking about the actors. I'm talking about Jeff the Chippy, the props boys, you know what it's like.

To then just completely not see these people anymore. It is a brave thing to do and quite a strange thing. Yeah. But at the same time, I'm loving getting an email saying, would you like to write a piece for a paper, for instance? And I go, I'd love to do that. Or would you like to do this show that's coming up? And you go, oh, I'll have a bash at that.

You can only let new things in if you are open and free. And that's what I feel. You can't do it when you've got a full-time commitment somewhere else. You've got to be brave. You've got to be brave. And, you know, and I think you have been and what you've also done is, it's not like you've taken a leap of faith and that there's nothing in place for you. You've got a hit podcast that has really resonated with a huge audience.

You'd be nuts to not work this nap and have some fun with it and see where you can take it. No, 100 percent. Have you done live shows, Kate? Done a couple, yeah. Have you? I'd love to do more, actually. I love them. Yeah. I'd love to do more. Do you love them?

Yeah, it's tricky trying to do them because I'm five days a week in London on the radio. Yeah. I'd love to do more, actually. I love them. Yeah. Do you love them? Yeah, it's tricky trying to do them because I'm five days a week in London on the radio. And then at the weekends, I'm football mum. But not forever, you know, so I'm never ruling it out. And I love working with live audiences. And I think, again, you know, it's something that you and I can do quite easily. It comes quite naturally to us. And it's not everyone's wheelhouse. So I think you should lean into the stuff that you are. That you love. I would love to. That you are enjoying and you're okay at. Well, it's such a community based pod that I can see myself running around. So come on Sue, get up on stage and it would be quite, you know.

So that's something we are planning. I keep banging on about it. Oh, you should now. You definitely should. But I am going to. It's just organisation and finding a venue. And if you look at what somebody like Fern's done, for example, with Happy Place. Oh, amazing. Isn't that amazing? It's incredible. And you know what? She was really gutsy as well. She stepped down from big broadcast roles. I know she did. Most people would go, well, you're mad for doing that.

And she wasn't. She was listening to her gut and what makes her happy. And I think, you know, I commend her for that. Oh, she's an incredible woman. Yeah. Incredible. Kate, I wanted to ask you about the radio. Yeah. Because just a bit of advice, I did a cover on Virgin Radio.

I saw that. How was it? Well, that's what I've got to talk to you about. I was so petrified. Were you? Absolutely scared shitless. What? Really? Honestly, it was, well, it was Easter Monday, so it was, you know, it's a gentle one, isn't it, when it's a holiday, what have you. I just was, I don't know where the time went. It felt like 12

minutes and four days. And I just sat there shaking like a leaf and trying to get through it. It sounded fine. They were happy with it. But when does that go? I mean, you are effortless on the radio. You know what? That's really interesting that you say that because like yesterday I came off air and I was like, oh, I just feel like my words weren't coming together today and I could have landed that better. And you go on air on the day like we're speaking the day after VE Day, you really want to do that day of justice. You want to say all the right things to recognize all of the incredible men and women that need that right, that deserve

that recognition on that day. So maybe I put myself under too much pressure, but no, it hasn't come easy to me. I found it really, really challenging at times. Right. So the fact that you don't hear that is wonderful. That's a relief. But I think I put myself so when I joined Greatest Hits from Radio 2, gosh, it's coming up on four years ago now, I joined and I took over some weekend shows. And I slowly got to kind of, you know, bed in with the audience. And then they'd asked me to do Afternoons, which is where I am now. A couple of years back, and I'd said, like, thank,'d asked me to do afternoons, which is where I am now, a couple of years back and I'd said, like, thank, I'd love to do it eventually. I just can't do it

now because my son's doing his GCSEs and it just wasn't the time. No, you want to be present five days a week is too much, isn't it? Well, it just wouldn't have worked then. And also I'd made that choice as a mom. I wanted to see it through. Yes. Just to just, you know, and they were like, look, that's fine. Cool. And I was like, but if in two years you're still looking, give us a bell. And they did. And they were amazing. In fact, I was offered that slot the day Ben sat his last GCSE. That's lovely. That's serendipity, isn't it? When it came to doing the live shows, they were brilliant

in as much as they... I went in and I did weekends and I got my air miles up, I call it. Started testing features with the audience. But also I know, you know, it's a huge network, Greatest Hits Radio. And I sit between two legends. I sit between, so I hand over from Ken Bruce. I mean like, the most popular broadcaster in Europe actually, he's huge.

And I hand over to Simon Mayo. So I have huge imposter syndrome now. Well, you shouldn't because you're amazing at it. Oh, thanks. You really are. I feel like I'm getting better, but I don't think I'm there yet. But again, the reason you, it's what you said, the reason you have imposter syndrome is because you're a nice person, right?

Well, I just care. I just think, you know, I think every day when you open that mic, you should care. What you're... And it's very, very different though, isn't it? It's podcasting because obviously it's live and you're there. It's so different. And it's different to live telly. So you pull on all of these different levers from my sort of back catalog of experience.

You're live telly. Let's talk about that just for a moment. Yeah. X Factor, Saturday night, biggest television show and you're anchoring it. How did you do that? How did you feel doing that? Because I can't stand in the news hub on this morning and they had to cut away from me where I fucked it up.

Did you hear that story? No, no, it was like Alan Partridge, sort of really bad. Really, really bad. I had the earpiece and I didn't, they sort of gave me the opportunity to do it. This was years ago, Phil and Holly were there. But I didn't practice any. It was weird. I got sort of chucked into this hub and was completely went blank. Just couldn't do it. Couldn't do it. I felt quite shafted. But that's a big ask of somebody that's never done it before. I felt a bit shafted, but you, who effortlessly sort of anchored these huge shows, it's mad. But don't forget, I'd done years of training, I suppose, hidden away on channels that nobody watched. When I first started out in telly, I did a live current affairs show,

but ironically it was up against EastEnders and I knew nobody would watch it. You know, remember there was an omnibus on a Sunday. That's where I learned how to be a telly presenter. Nine weeks in, Diana died and we stayed on air. I learned more in that hour as a broadcaster than I could have ever dreamed and not in a good way. You know, it was a challenge. With that, I read something, and I know it's really boring reading shitty Wikipedia at times,

but was it true that you had to choose some music and you only had a couple of things in the car and you chose Candle in the Wind? Yeah, that is true. So do you believe from that choice, that's why that song became so prominent in that time? I think, who knows? I mean, it just is such a macabre thing to lay claim to. All I know is that on that day, it was a Sunday. Yeah. The music library was locked. We were at Meridian Television in Southampton working out of a port cabin in a car park. It was my ninth hour of or eighth hour of television. And I had

to cut together a tribute at the end of the show with an editor that portrayed Diana as the princess of young causes. It was a youth current affairs show I was hosting. And I ran because we couldn't get any music out of the library. And you know, even iPods weren't a thing then. It wasn't like you could download anything. It was 1997. I remember the morning. I remember being in bed. My friend Zara had come around to stay and I remember my mum crying. So this was like my first telly show and called Straight Up and I was co-presenting it with three other people, one of whom was Nick Knowles and Nick and I were both living in a Nova Tell in Southampton, right, to be close to the studio. Very Alan Partridge.

So Partridge. He used to sit next door to me in his hotel room and I could hear him on his guitar playing extreme modern words over and over, right. That was my lived experience of being neighbors with Nick Knowles. I love him. And then that night I was watching the news neighbors with Nick Knowles. I love him. And then that night, I was watching the news quite late, and the news broke of the accident. And I knocked next door just said, have you seen, you know, so we were watching and I kept with it across the night and fully never expected, I didn't know whether we would be on air the next day even. So we all went in really early. And ITN had said, we might need you to stay on air so that we can recalibrate. Because we were in unknown territory,

nobody knew how to report a loss like this. And I think it was the early hours of the morning or certainly earlier in the morning where it was confirmed that she had passed. So it was a real scramble, that show. And then the music library was shut. And then I was like, I'll just go and see what I've got in the car.

And all I had that was in any way suitable was a double album of Elton John's greatest hits in amongst a load of dance music and whatever else I was listening to at the time. And I just thought, well, she was our normal Jean. So I put it forward as a suggestion. That's all I did. I didn't have final sign off or anything. And they used it and I guess it resonated and it made sense and it matched. But that's an amazing achievement. It married the mood of the moment.

It did. And that's what a good editor should do, whether you're a magazine editor working in television. So you know, it goes back to saying like, no, I pull on a lot of levers from my back catalog of skill sets, I suppose, because what I learn in print and what I learn in live telly and what I learn in live radio informs massively what I do as a podcaster. And who knows what else, what other strings to our bows will develop as life goes on that, you know? Are you proud of yourself now? As you said, it's taken a long time to get to the age you are to believe in yourself

and feel confidence. I wish I'd got there sooner in terms of that self-belief. Yeah. I mean, not to the point of being smug or anything. No, but again, this is what we do. We're not allowed to say we're proud. You go, oh no, but I haven't got an ego. I'm not smug.

You should be really proud. I tell you what was nice yesterday. I had just a really simple conversation with a friend of mine who's been doing my makeup for years, right? So we're working on the Royal Show and we were chatting and she's just turned 50, I'm 52. And I just said, you know, what is lovely is there's nothing left on my to-do list, right?

Everything that comes in now is bonus material. It's all cherries because my cake is good. I've done everything and more that I ever wanted to do. And now as a parent, I'm helping my son to set out into the world. And my only ambition for him is to be as happy doing what he does as I've been doing what I do. That's it. And I don't care what that looks like, as long as it makes his heart sing in the way that mine has over the years. And, you know, it just revs your engines. It's so true. I picked up Eliza last night very late.

She was in a play. And honestly, people say, do your kids want to follow in what you're doing? You go, maybe, yeah, you know. But last night, her face face her happiness after coming off of stage she was so buzzing about it all the way home in the car like so happy and I thought well if this is what makes you happy yes it's precarious do I want you to do it not really no but if it makes you that happy she will probably end up going to drama college or whatever. Because she's

just alight with joy when she comes off stage. I said, but you're nervous. She said, no, I just wanted to get out there. I just wanted to do it. And I thought, that's amazing. That's a good sign that I think because I've never had that, oh my God, can I do this? You know, when the counts in your air and it's like, and we're live in five, four, but some people absolutely brick it then and I'm like, bring it on. You know, and when things go wrong, I kind of love it. That's where I, that's where I think, oh, let's, let's not let the team down. Cause as a lot of what she did last night, she said to mommy, a couple of people could see their eyes had gone blank. She went, I knew their lines. I improvised. I got on back up on it. She's like,

you. I quite like that though. Cause I think, you know, you learn that over time, obviously, you're not kind of, you know, you don't do that from day one. But I think when stuff goes wrong, it's certainly like, for example, like with a show like The X Factor, I remember one week literally just as they were doing a give in the count, all of the autocue went down. All of it. And we had no script on cards. I would have ran. I would have ran. Ran out the studio. No, I was quite up for that. Isn't that weird? Isn't that sick? What did you say? Do you remember? Do you remember what you said?

Just ad-libbed it. Just made it up. I mean, like, listen, it's not exactly brain surgery, is it? Hello, welcome to the X Factor. Here's the judges. It's the over 25s. It's the under 25s. It's the groups. First up, blah. Vote for them on this. But I mean, if you don't know that, you shouldn't be doing the job really. I mean, you're an onscreen traffic cop with some hugs. Certainly I was during my time there. I think we got the autocue back up by half an hour in. Half an hour.

Yeah, but I quite enjoyed it. But still, you know, that's the stuff that I think really sharpens the lead in your pencil. Yeah, you're nuts. Probably. Are you? A little bit nuts. Probably. Probably.

It's great. It's great. Over the years, for people that are listening, you know, with age and change of, not change of career, because like you say, it's like a huge, it's a huge folder of... It's same, same, but different. Yeah. Yeah, with lots of different stuff. Over the years, have you had sort of things that you would call knockbacks?

Yeah. You know, being let go of things? How have you bounced back? How have you, because people want to know that when they feel down, they get made redundant. I've had messages this week, you know, they've been made redundant. Oh, it's tough. You know, it's tough. Yeah. It's where your resilience grows from. You know, yeah, I mean, gosh, lots of people have been fired by Simon Cowell, but I was amongst the first, you know, and it was, it was, it was done in a way that felt very public because it was, it was like a bong at the news at 10.

It felt really humiliating and embarrassing. Yeah. But you get over it. It's just a job. How old were you then? How old were you? Early 30s. Early 30s.

That's hard though, isn't it? It is hard. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't get me wrong. But there are harder things like overcoming an illness or the loss of somebody. I mean, perspective. It's a massive thing, perspective. You're so right.

And I went into the industry, having worked behind the scenes first, I knew exactly what the deal was. And I remember making the decision about transferring to telly when I was asked to do that first tv show with nick knolls and i said no it's like i don't want to be on screen it's not me i'm an editor you know i work in magazines blah blah blah and at that time i was also writing for the sunday times and marie

claire so i was in a really great place with my career i was doing everything i ever wanted i didn't want to change but then you, you know, you make a business decision, you think, well, actually, you're never going to pay your mortgage off writing articles for the Sunday Times, but you might if you play your cards right with this. But it's a calculated risk. So on a business level, it made sense to investigate it. And I just thought, I'll go and have a look at it and see if I like it. I didn't know if I liked it. I also looked at the business case going, print's in decline and I earn and live in a print world. That's in decline, but TV was just

about so Channel 5 had just launched and then we were just about to launch digital TV. And I just thought again, it's that FOMO thing of there's growth going on over here. There's going to be a whole audience. If I want to be part of the future, I've probably got to be at least skilled in this area. So I need to go and try it. But it was never about wanting to be on screen. Well, this is what I was going to say. I was going to say that's so interesting because you see it from a business mind. I think we're very, very similar because I never want, very different from me. I fell into it. I was 10. Of course, I didn't want to be famous at eight.

I just did it and I went along and I became famous. But for you, it was all about opportunity, not being left behind, technology, where things were going on. But you were never fame hungry. You never wanted the fame. No, never. No. No, I want the job.

And maybe that's why it hasn't affected you in the way it does affect some people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because they are fame hungry. But also don't forget, you know, by the time I came to anything like a public role, I'd edited newspaper columns, magazines, I'd put people on magazine covers, Sunday Times, Marie Claire, smash hits, you know, daily newspapers. I'd seen, if you think about it as the Wizard of Oz, I'd seen behind the curtain, right? I'd seen behind the curtain. I also

knew that effectively I was giving myself quite a short shelf life. If I went on screen, that you know, it might spit me up and chew me out. I come from a very working class background there. And that was the only thing that was ever going to be on my horizon where I might actually be able to, for example, buy myself a house and not live in rented or, you know, that was a golden dream for me coming from the background I came from. And so when that was presented to me as even like a tiny possibility, I thought, well, I've got to look into this. But if I don't like it, I can step back out. And when I went into telly, I still kept all my contracts

for the Sunday times with Marie Claire. So I kept one foot in this camp in case I didn't like this camp. So I've hedged my bets, but worked day and night, to try and keep all those plates spinning. And then realized I did, but yeah, I think I've always approached it as a business really, because you have to.

And I think from 21, I was sat heading up meetings with the head of advertising, head of marketing, distribution teams. I've never been shy of looking at the mechanics of how everything works. One of the first things I did when I transitioned to commercial radio was sit down and say, tell me how the ad model works here. So I understand because that's who we're working for. We've got to keep our advertisers happy. How does this work? So I understand. I've always been the same in terms of wanting to know the ins and outs of a cat's ass. Even when I was 12 and 13 at work. I knew everybody's job at work.

Yeah, you should. I didn't ever come on and just do mine. I know how Boom Ops work. I can't remember what, well, I know how they work because I'm engaged to run. Yeah. But you know, I always wanted to know what was going on and I like to know what's going on behind the scenes. But that makes you a good podcaster because you're interested. Yes.

And not everybody's interested, but my experience tends to be that that would make you brilliant in this space. But also, I think for me, interested people are the most interesting. Curiosity is special, isn't it? And we should stay curious. In a never changing world, we should stay curious. It's like not wanting to eat the same sandwich every day, right? No, it's so true. I don't want to eat the same sandwich. In fact, I don't really like lunch. I never know what to have.

Exactly. Yeah, same. Not really bothered. Oh, can't look at another prep. Go for a yogurt and a bit of blueberry. Yeah, same. I like a granola pot. Yeah, same. I had that yesterday for my lunch, a blueberry bowl. I'm happy with that.

Thank you so much for coming on Kate. I could talk to you all day. I don't even know what we've chatted about, but I hope it was interesting. I'm sure it'll be interesting to everybody. 0778 20 1919. Let me know what you thought of this app. Say hello to Kate and I can pass stuff on to Kate, obviously. Yes, please do. Please do because she's curious. Or just come and DM me on Instagram or yeah. That'd be lovely and listen to White Wine Question Time if you haven't because it's

brilliant but I'll pop all that on. Don't you worry, don't you worry. It's lovely to listen, it's lovely to be able to return the favour of appearing on your show. And congratulations, darling, on doing this alongside everything else that you've got going on in your world. And you're a natural and the radio would be lucky to have you. That's very, very kind of you. And if I can look at your career, follow it a little tiny bit, a tenth of what you're doing, I'll be happy. So thank you. Back at you.

All right. Lots of love. Bye, darling. Thank you for having me. Bye.