Life with Nat - EP253: Early Years with Dr June O’Sullivan OBE

Episode Date: August 9, 2026

Nat's joined by Dr June O'Sullivan, a tour de force speaker on what's important for raise our young children. Combining her wealth of lived experience, academic dedication, and tangible skills of putting it into action building the London Early Years Foundation - she's still out pushing for social change and continued improvement. Hear more from Dr June O'Sullivan on her podcast: Talking Early Years - https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/talking-early-years-with-june-osullivan/id1563037436Get in touch with Nat, buy tickets for upcoming live shows and link to Patreon, all the family's Instagrams, and more: ⁠⁠lifewithnatpod.komi.io⁠⁠ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello and welcome to this very, very special episode of Life with Nat. I hope everyone's having a great time and a great summer. This guest is someone who really has changed the world in her own way. We're going to be talking to Dr June O'Sullivan OBE. As background, June is chief executive of the London Early Years Foundation, pioneering social enterprise running 43 nurseries across 13 London boroughs and supporting more than 4,000 children, many of whom are from disadvantaged backgrounds.

She's an author, a speaker, a straight-talking media commentator, and she's known for challenging the status quo on childcare, child poverty and family support. June's mission is deeply personal. As a young Irish single parent, she experienced poor and humiliating treatment when settling her son into nursery. That experience shaped her determination to create childcare, that respects every family. Since 2006, she has grown L-E-Y-F from eight nurseries

into the UK's largest social enterprise nursery group, employing over 1,000 people, and widening access through fairer fees. For June, early years is not simply childcare, it's about belonging, opportunity, and changing children's lives. So let's welcome wonderful Dr June. Dr June O'Sullivan, OBE. It's a pleasure to meet you and have you on the mothpod.

Thank you so much. Honestly, it's amazing and I've done a bit of reading up. And I don't know where to start really, June. I'd love to, you know, you've achieved so much and you've done so much for early years, education and childhood. That I think what really struck me first was you in Ireland with your son and how it sparked your passion for it all, really. I am indeed an Irish immigrant

and I came here in the way that many Irish people came where, you know, to work for the NHS to become nurses. I think us Irish nurses got a, we had a good reputation. And so I came, actually, you know, I came to be a psychiatric nurse which is a bit like not the usual way of good doing things. But when I was young, I used to work for the assignment community. So I used to, we used to have a pram. I'm from Cork, you know, it's a small city.

And I had a pram. We go around to the. the evening, collecting food, and then we go back to a place called John Strait, and we cook the food for these old guys. At the time, there were mostly guys, and they were mostly older guys, and they mostly had mental health issues, and it sparked an interest in me, and I thought I'd really like to know more about this. How old were you when you were doing that, June? I was probably about 16 and 17, and sometimes I used to stay in the nightshed. I can tell you this for true now. I never used to tell people this, but you could hear the rats in the kitchen going

into the bins, you know? And you could hear them in the stairs. And like, if this was to happen to me now, I would probably have a nervous breakdown. But then I was brave enough to stay all night in a place where the rats jumped in and out of the bins and came up and down the stairs. So I was about 17 then, you know, 17 and obviously very stupid.

And then I came to England, trained as a nurse, and found myself unexpectedly pregnant with my son. And I was 19. How did that go down? with family and stuff. It didn't go down too great because I didn't tell them until I was about to give birth. Then my mother, my poor father, who's passed us now, has left us now three years ago, who was the nicest man on the earth, actually, was just bewildered by all of this.

To me, I was like, well, it's a baby, you know, we'll manage, you know. Jesus was born in a manger, you know, we'll figure this out. We're in South London. You know, we can figure away out of this. So I was a night nurse, and in those days, the night nurses were all either, Caribbean are Irish. And so one of the nurses' mother was, used to come and sleep in my house. And she taught me all things about cassava and cassava cakes and all sorts of interesting things. She told me how to make the best Christmas cake in the world, which I still make now, which is so laced with alcohol, you can hardly stand up after a slice of it.

My wonderful friend, Rudolf Walker, who plays Patrick and Eastenders, he used to bring in his Caribbean Christmas cake. And I tell you, after a slice, you couldn't remember your lines. I know. And that is so true. And when he was just coming up for two, I sort of, I was desperate to go to work in the day because I was knackered, basically. And I took him to an nursery around the corner. I was living in Streatham. And this woman, you know, sort of I introduced myself, and we were on the list forever.

Anyway, we got in. And the second day, when I came to pick him up, he said, you had three hours. I came to pick him up. I could see him in the garden, like by the fence. I was thinking, this isn't right. And obviously, he had got a bit lost in this kind of wandering garden, which was, it's good that they had a garden, but getting lost wasn't such a good idea. So obviously, I'm a mother, you know, I pick my child up and, you know, what you do, wouldn't you? Of course. You pick your child up. My lovely little two-year-olds with his like blonde curls in this little scared face. And I walked up to the door. Now, I knew nothing then. If I knew now what I knew

then I would have taken her legs off, I tell you. But anyway, it went up to the door and she started screaming at me. I think probably she had got a fright because they couldn't find him. And she started screaming at me, being an Irish single parent and how she couldn't, she could have given this place to a doctor. And honestly, even though I was knackered and I had no other childcare, I walked away and I thought you were never going back to that place. But I am going to create something one day where no one is not welcome, where every child is valued, it doesn't really matter what your background is just because you're born poor or you're born into a situation, which is a bit tricky at the time, doesn't mean you should suffer for it. And that's what I did eventually, but it took a

long time to get from there to there. But we're there now. So in between those years, when your son was two, and then sort of growing up, were you still nursing? Did you still do the night work? No, I stopped the night work and I got a job in social work. And he went to a childminder until he went to school. And I was a social worker for 10 years because I'm one of those old-fashioned girls, you know, where you want to like learn your craft, really learn your craft, you know, before you jump from one job to the next job. So I spent 10 years there.

In the meantime, I met my husband, a very nice man called Steve, who I'm still married to now 40 years later. He sort of gave me grounding. And a roof over my head. That was helpful. Yeah. That was a good tactic. And then we went on and had a couple of more children, as you do.

And so I stayed, I worked for, once with social services for 10 years, looking after particularly childminders. I loved the child minders. And when I started, there was about four. When I left, there was about 96. And I remember once, they were all from Battersea. Battersea was like my second home. I remember saying, have you ever been out of Battersea?

And it was like, no, June. Battersea is like where the boundaries are, you know. And I said to them, let's go to Chinatown for an evening meal. It's going to Chinatown. So we all went to Chinatown. And honestly, I said to them, you just don't need a passport to come to Chinatown. We can do this. We can get on the bus and we can do this.

And they were so excited. We had such a good time. Fantastic. 20, 30 years ago. I then took them to France. Oh, wow. So we went on one of those. You know, do you remember those day trips to France where you went to Boulogne?

And you could get reductions. on the ferry and the coach. And you could get those reductions because if you bought certain newspapers you could cut out the vouchers and you'd get it cheaper. Right, right. So off we went and that was a big deal for some

because they had to actually get a passport for the first time. Anyway, we went and I said like, this is your day out now, you know, this is your day out, girls, we're going to have a good time, we're going to eat French food, we're going to pretend we're really, you know,

sophistication, we're going to have them. Well, I tell you, they spend all of their time having discovered Car 4 on saying, June, have you seen how cheap the napis are? Have you seen how we can buy all of this? We came back with bags of washing powder and nappies and all, and I said to, where are like the French wines?

And they were like, no, no, no, you should see what we could get. So it was hilarious. But anyway, went on from there. That's incredible. And so really, your whole life, since you were a young teenager, you've been a carer, haven't you? Oh, yeah, totally. for people.

Totally, yeah. And I've just done my care series. I know, I love that. I saw you on the telly, actually. And I thought, oh, I love the fact that she's recognizing what we call when we're being like fancy, the philosophy of care. And I did a PhD there in Nassalonga.

And I did a lot in that about the philosophy of care, about how it's so undervalued, so unappreciated. And it's actually the glue that holds us all together. Well, everybody's going to need care at some point. Exactly. You know, so it's a crazy thing not to appreciate and talk about and all of those sorts of things. Exactly, exactly. I've heard that you are sometimes quite outspoken regarding things.

Who told you that? Never. Not me. I'm quiet. I don't believe it, June. Sometimes, Nat, you just have to call it out, don't you? You do. So what are you calling out at the moment? What gets your goat? You see, the thing is, I like children. I actually genuinely like them and I hate to see them being like abandoned. And for me,

like children are what we're doing everything for. They're like, but they're also like the lipist tests of when things go wrong. You know, the first time you see like more and more sugar in the food, you start noticing children more tooth decay. You start noticing obesity. And people were saying, no, no, no, there's no obesity and I'm thinking, yeah, I think there probably is. I have two-year-olds who can't cross their feet, cross their legs when they sit down. No, no, no, I think there is. And a lot of people thinking, not realizing they put sugar in just for everything. That got me going. So I set up an earlier chef academy to train all the chefs because chefs get trained in like GCSE broader stuff, but not in like food, nutrition for small children. So they didn't know about like portion size or, you know,

like two-year-olds, they're very funny about their food because their taste buds are exploding basically in their mouths. And so anything that tastes like normal to us is like 50 times more powerful in their mouths. And they get a bad rep. Two-year-olds are always, you know, I was talking about two-year-olds, terrible twos and stuff. Actually, two-year-olds are brilliant. And they are... They are brilliant. I think it's a fantastic age. They are brilliant, aren't they? Yeah. I love their independence and I do it. I do it. My do it. You know... They're going to do it. They're do it whether you want them to or not and their determination. My great

nephew is, well, it'll be two in October. He's just an amazing little boy to be around. A little Libran. Just watching their yes, just watching his enthusiasm and that that just you know, just

always exploring and always sort of pushing the boundaries. And like you say, people say, oh, they're naughty, they're not. They're learning. They're always learning. They're really figuring it out. They really are. And I love it when they say, my do it. And you say, okay, you do it then. I'll help you. Do you want any help? No, no, no. My do it. My do it. And so you stand back and you let them, you let them figure it out and then you stand back and help them. And I know when you're a parent and you're in

Sainsbury's and you like have 40 minutes to collect the other children and get the dinner, my do it doesn't really help you particularly. And I know there's been times when I was like frantic in the, when my children are young and where I abandoned the shopping and just like, okay, we're just going home now. I can't do this anymore. It takes a lot of patience, I think. He doesn't. And it takes a lot of time. Yeah, something we don't have much of, really. We don't have much of. And I really wanted to know your take on, I always wonder someone like yourself, what do you think about this kind of giving children a phone or an iPad at that age? I think it's really not a great idea. So all the science backs me up on this.

But we know the reality is that actually by three, something like half the children go to bed with an iPad as their storytelling, you know, as their storytelling opportunity. So they're not having a story read to them. And that's not really great for their brain development and stuff. Now, I also know that parents are under a great deal of pressure. And like, I remember I would put Rosie and Jim on our Thomas the Tank. I could tell you everything about Thomas the Tank.

knew that everything. While I was trying to cook the dinner. So, you know, you kind of have to balance this out. But I think the screen time now is much more dangerous than the video thing in the past because it definitely kind of impacts on their, on their concentration, on their brains, on their language. Like, for example, I remember about four years ago, one of the area managers saying to me, we have loads of American children. And I remember thinking, have we? And of course we haven't. They're all being on YouTube. And so they're on YouTube so often they had American accents. I've noticed that out and about. I've noticed some Americanisms or even, as you say, an accent come out. And I think you've got to be watching a lot of American stuff, haven't you,

to do that? Well, all those short reels, they're really bad for them, those YouTube short reels. They're much more dangerous than sticking the video into the video player machine and saying, can you just watch what happens to Fireman Sam? Tell me in a minute, what happens to Fireman Sam, well, I just make the dinner. And the follow through is. what happens is the difference because I see the children on the trains and parents just pass them the phone and there's no interaction

whereas I think if you have if they were like and now what's happening and what did he tell you? And you know you're having this conversation you can mitigate some of the risk but it's not. They put their earphones on them

they give them this thing and then they flip them to a flip onto it and flip onto it and there's nothing to suggest it's helpful in any way and some times parents think oh well they're learning their colours or they're learning their alphabet

or they're learning their numbers. They're really not. They're really, really not. They're not absorbing this in any way that's sort of meaningful. So I think... My daughter, she'll be 10, 10 in a couple of weeks' time.

And she is exhausting. She is fantastic, but she is a doer and she loves attention. And she still wants imaginative play now. She still wants me to me. We played hotels yesterday. day, June. So she put labels on all of the doors. I came in. I had to have a bag. She was receptionist. And for an hour, we did some roleplay. We played hotels. But sometimes you do,

just as a grown human being woman, I have to say, Joan, please go and watch a bit of telly or play a little game, because I can't do this all day. I have got stuff to do as much as I love it. Yeah. But I'm so happy that I do believe that I've done that. I've made her love imaginative play. Yeah, you probably have. You know, the talking and like you say, getting on a tube and doing rock paper scissors. We, you know, we don't take iPads out and stuff. And I know for some people, I do understand, you know, life is different and it's hard and they may need some time because they're working from home or, you know, there's so many different scenarios, aren't there? But I just think sticking on a bit of television exactly like you

is better than those sort of short form videos. And just talking about it. And just talking about it afterwards. I think it's just the talking about it is the thing because then it becomes a point of conversation and I think, you know, I don't know that we're, they're doing that. But also, I mean, you know, it's all parents are having, you know, it's a difficult time now because we live in a two-parent economy where both parents have to work just to pay the rent. But also, we as adults are a little bit addicted to our phones as well. Like, so to be frank, we have to put signs off, say, put your phone in your bag when you come to collect your child. know, no phones and stuff, because they will come in and they will have the phone out and they will

say, hello, like glance at them. And then answer the phone or send a text or look at something. And I think if you've not seen your child for eight hours or 10 hours, you kind of have to give them that special moment of re-engaging, reconnecting, re-belarming, you know, and that's really important. And I think we have to own that too, that the algorithms that have made us so addicted to the phones, which are the ones that are also working with the children, are not good for us. June, I'm so sorry, June, I'm so sorry. Hold that thought. What's the matter? What have you done? Put some tissue on it, sweetheart. Yeah? And then just pop down to daddy. Sorry, summer holidays. Oh, yeah. I love that. Sorry. Put some tissue on it. There's a good answer. If you're Irish,

have a cup of tea, it's grand. Back some paper around it. Fish and chip paper, my dad said. Yeah, that's a bit of brown paper. Well, there's a science of that, you know. Like there is a fiber in the brown paper that actually helps you to soak up a cut. So there's like nursery rhymes.

Can I, can I talk about natural rhymes for a second? Because that's one of my bug bears. Like nobody knows nursery rhymes anymore at all. And that's really scary because nursery rhymes are really important in helping children to learn to speak and to listen and to sing

and to, you know, become confident actually readers and therefore become confident writers. And this, the nursery rhyme tells the story. And the, you know, Jack and Jill fell down, you know, went down the hill, you know, and to fetch a pail of water. Jack fell down, you know, and bumped his head and Jill came to tumbling after.

Yeah, was it then? Then up Jack got and holmed a trot as fast as he could caper. He went to bed and wrapped his head. And wrapped his head in vinegar and paper. See, an antiseptic and an absorbent of stopping the bleeding. Yes. Yes. There are little morals in those things

Oh, lots of them And children need that Yeah, they need to understand in a safe way How to deal with difficulty And to some degree Another one of my bug bears is When we as adults try and wrap children in cotton wool And try and make all decisions for them

And try and in a way limit those opportunities For them to play And to play out things and to play So they figure things out and they work things out So like we're scared to let them out and play I went out to play Did you go out to play? I did go out to play

Only in certain Not where I lived actually It was quite busy I was in Islington in the middle of London I didn't really go out until I was about 14 But I had very strict parents Yeah

I used to go and stay in Hertfordshire With my brother Who's much older than me And I played out there We played out Me and my nieces And playing out was great Wasn't it?

Yeah Well we've taken that away for them That's another answer to your bug bear. You said to me, what am I worried about at the moment? I'm worried about that. But, Jane, I have to counteract that because honestly, I would not allow Joni to the park at 10 on her own. You see, what have we done, Natalie, that we've created an environment where the children don't own their own space anymore. You know, we've put cars everywhere, we've put fear everywhere. We've, like, not opened up their local

neighborhood to them in the way they're entitled to. We're like, we've done them a disservice, you know? You're absolutely right. But for me, me, what I see as a parent is the caring, the nurturing, the feeding and just keeping them alive. But my job is to eliminate risk from their lives. So for me, Joni walking across a road and going to the park, which isn't far away at all, by the way, going to a park at that age on her own is a risk. And I just can't take that risk. No, I think that's what happens. It becomes a circle, a virtual cycle of fear, isn't it? Because when we went out to play, there was fewer cars.

Yep. There was always a group of us. So, you know, there was a, you know, all the children from the street would be all out playing, you know. Yes. The neighbours had an eye on you as well. So if you got into any trouble, it went to your mother before you even got home. So by the time you walked in the door, you got a clip around the ear. You know, like she knew before you even breath, you know, before you even said anything.

That was a different kind of environment. And all I'm saying is, as adults, we have cut that off for children. And so it's really hard. It's the community side of it as well. Yeah. You know, we have got a lovely little community. But again, like you said, keeping an eye out the window, no one's at home. Everyone's at work.

Yeah. You know, if you want to have a wee in someone's house, you'd just run in, wouldn't you? And somebody's in. Yeah. And you knew everybody. So it is very different now. You don't know every neighbour. You're not sure what people are up to.

No, exactly. And it is an element of fear and distrust. There is. And I don't know whether that again is to do with technology. And that's knowing too much about. everything. I don't know. Maybe there was a certain level of naivety back in the day, which did us good. I think you're right. I think you're absolutely right. But also, there's two things that have changed. And one is we have restructured childhood as much

more about children being indoors and children being in a much more nuclear family. And the second thing is, we have created this term to parent. Like when I was growing up, we rared our children. And then suddenly, I don't know where the two-parent came, because with two-parenting came a verb of something that you had to do. And I think he's created a load of kind of issues for people, because what is to parent? Because it's not like a verb. And if it is, like, what is it mean? And, you know, then now you have to search for perfection. And then you have social media and those often WhatsApp groups where they're all comparing each other all the time. You know, Oh, my Tallulah is at, she's going to the toilet at three months.

No, she's not because she hasn't got sphincter control at three months. What she has is you running around after her trying to catch her. And then someone else whose child is two and a half and is going, oh my God, my child must be special. Like, why isn't he going to the bathroom? Oh, no, until you have this complete guilt because one person is comparing the other and stuff like that. And then everyone else is jumping in with it. Oh, yeah, and mine came home with, you know, a dirty car again from nursery.

And oh, mine's got, you know, and so on it goes. and in the end, it's kind of crazy. It goes on and on and on. I mean, I remember, you know, people say to me now, family members, whoever, oh, you know, they've said at school that her handwriting isn't great. I said she's four. I said in Sweden they don't pick up a pen to her seven. Just don't worry about it.

I often say to parents, who, does she need to write a check? Yeah. You know, like, why? Why does she need to be able to write her name perfectly at four? I mean, it's great if she does, but if it doesn't matter, it's like it's not needed. But of course, now they're pushing them into school so young, so young. In fact, I was in Finland a couple of weeks ago at a conference. And they, like you say, they're six when they start there.

They said to me, Jude is true that you're, you know, children as young as two are going to school now. And I said, it is true, girls. It is true. It is shocking and it is true. And I just think, oh, you know, this is why. So they're pushing them too early all the time. They are, June, but that goes back to what we're saying about how life has changed. I love being at home.

I honestly, I would be at home. I'd be a very happy 1950s housewife. Genuinely, I would. I love my cleaning, my cooking. I'd be really happy to have my children and be at home. But life's not like that. I have to go out. So what are you doing with these kids? People are relying on their parents. I think it's wonderful how grandparents help their children, you know, and have their children. But also, they've done all of that. It's lovely to have a child for a day. but really, should you be, as a grandparent, having your kid five days a week? No, knackard. I'm just saying in situations, you're exhausted, surely.

It's really hard for people. But there needs to be an educational setting for the two and three year old something because people need to go to work. Yeah, except that doesn't have to be school. It can be a really lovely nursery, which is play-based, where they're in an environment that's like home.

Like any of our nurseries are like home. and they're there all day and I have proper trained chefs and we have playing we have gardens and we have activities and we have what we call a pedagogy

which is the way we teach children and how we lead them to learn they don't need to be in a school environment you know trying to fit in and I think as a country we should own that like we should own that and parents shouldn't feel guilty

if their child comes to nursery but the nurseries should feel guilty if it's not good enough you know it has to be great experience for those children the economic situation that we now live in shouldn't the children shouldn't be

suffer as a consequence of that. They should get the best because when you give them the best, honestly, when you see them thrive and you see their brains develop and you see them learn and the parents also find a community in a really good nursery,

you know, in the sense, like so many of the parents I know and chat to, they would say they would never have made friends and now they have a whole connection, you know, they have a whole group of people they hang out with. Well, absolutely.

Some of my best friends are from Joni and Eliza going to nurseries. or, you know, it's wonderful. Exactly. Yeah. So that, I find it very depressing some of that, and I get very outspoken about them, that kind of trying to penny pinch around this area of learning.

It's somehow rather under fives doesn't matter so much because it's all about your sats and your passing exams. But actually, 80% of your brain is developed by the time you're two. 80%. So, like, they're with us when their brains are fizzing like volcanoes. And then 90% of your brain, brain is done by the time you're five. So why wouldn't you spend, you know, instead of time on that. Exactly. And the money on that and the support on that. Like, why wouldn't you? Why wouldn't you?

If you like children. It's forethinking, isn't it? You're forward thinking because if you do the best at that age, then hopefully their school life will be better and they will feel more comfortable. And all the science and the research, you know, shows that. And we do a lot on sustainability. I'm really into sustainability and this whole thing about how do you prepare the planet and the environment for our children. So that's... Because they are citizens of the world once they're born. I mean, they have a right.

So we did this really great piece of work recently. We gave the children cameras. And we took four children from four different parts of London. So, Lewisham, Soho, Newham, and Southwark, Dulwich, down that end, East Dulwich. Yeah, yeah. And they opened out their cameras. And we said to them, they're all three and four. All articulate, nice three and four-year-olds, you know, and I'm very...

Very funny. And I said to them, take any photographs you want of anything, you know, that you don't like. And they defined what they didn't like. They decided what they didn't like. Right. And so they took all these photographs and they came back and then we showed them all the photographs they took. We put them on a screen and then they decided.

And then they chose the ones that they wanted to keep. And then we asked them why they didn't like them. So you can imagine what they came up with in their own particular way, in their own language with their own description. The first one was like, this is Augusting, Augustine. I was like,

what is Augusting? And it's like, why, why, why, why is their litter everywhere? Like, why is their mess? Then bird guano. Why is their bird guano everywhere? Why is their dog poo?

Why are people writing, why are they writing on the walls and not on paper? Why is they writing on the bins? So they didn't like graffiti. I know people see it's an art form, but they weren't, they weren't finding much banksie around where they were

finding. were just finding that very good graffiti. Then there was really interesting ones. Like there was one group of children were in Stockwell. We took them around Stockwell. And like it's really interesting how children own their space. Like this is their London. Yes.

They say, my daddy likes a cafe down there. And that's the bus Miami gets to work. And then they notice things like there's lots of flats, as you know, being built in London at the moment with not enough green space in my view. But anyway. And then one of them said, I don't like all these buildings.

they're ugly and they're dark. When I looked at what he was trying to say with his photographs, the shadow from these blocks was quite deep. And so when you came down and you're only two-foot-torn, all you see is this kind of darkness. So we're going to write to Sadiq Khan, we're going to do a whole heap on planning and planning departments and everything else

and say, when you're deciding about these things, when you're thinking about it, think about the children as well, because they are also citizens of this city. and they have a right to have their voices heard in regards to this. So that's what I think, yeah, we underestimate children by not actually giving them a voice, whereas I really think that we should. I think it's absolutely incredible.

You've really made me think and open my mind to that age group, because I think you're right. I think we see them as babies, toddlers, terrible twos, do, do, do. But they're very, very special citizens of the world. I love that so much. Your children, if you don't mind me asking, I bet they're very proud of mum. What do they do?

Oh, I don't know. The eldest one is trained as a sound engineer in Islington, funny now. He does a bit of that on the side where he's a compliance officer. The middle one lives in New York with his wife. She's in finance there at the moment, and he is in marketing. And the youngest one is a permaculture gardener. Wow. You must be very, very proud.

Well, I'm delighted with them because they found their own spaces. And they've also influenced me, particularly the youngest one. She introduced, she was like the military police in the house on sustainability when she was from about the time she was about nine. So we were recycling with like passion at that point. And she, I remember her writing to Tony Blair. I think it might have been Tony Blair. It was one of the prime ministers we've had.

And say, in my grandmother's country, they have, you have to pay for plastic bags. Why can't we do that now? And of course, it's taken about 15 years, 20 years before we've done that. And she was writing to them then. She was also big into girls' football when girls' football wasn't the thing. But one small thing she did is I remember when she was going to nursery, she wasn't great at saying goodbye.

She found it difficult. Yeah. The window was quite high. So I suggest this to them they put steps. So they did. I mean, various of them, they put steps to the window. So she could climb up the steps and look out and then say goodbye. And then she could see the parting and then she was fine.

And seeing you walk away and know that your mummy's going somewhere. Yeah. And then so I introduced that. So I recently did a book there and called Nursery by Design. And those kind of things I've put into the book for people setting up narratives and stuff to sort of think about how children see their world in their nursery and the things that kind of helped them. Like, you know, putting its steps up so they can look out.

Putting images of their local area up when they come into the hole. So, you know, if you live in a place where there's a particular icon or there's a particular market or there's a particular set of things that you kind of recommend. when you're out shopping with your family, that there's also a kind of a poster of that in the nursery. You know, are the children have made drawings of it and they're all framed going up the stairs or whatever it is. You know, things like that are really significant for children because they build that connection

between home and nursery. And they give them a sense of belonging. Yeah, and that familiarity and that warmth and it's that brings safety, doesn't it? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's quite, sometimes it's very safe. simple things, you know, like it's not highfalutin things that make the difference. It's like articulating, articulating simple things in a highfalutin way to get them listened to by

policymakers. But in reality, they're pretty simple stuff, you know. June, what do you do? Because you're such a doer and you've done your book, you've got all the nurseries, you're obviously extremely busy. When do you stop? Do you ever rest? Do you do anything for yourself? Well, I like writing. So it's not. trouble to me. Do you know what I mean? I mean, not emails like, not them, but writing stories and books and stuff and I get a great kick out of that. I love my choir. So I'm part of a choir called Real Voices there in South London. And we were singing at Clapham Common bandstand there on Sunday, Saturday, whatever day, no Sunday. And I love that. I like that. I have a group of

friends, a couple of things. I've got a group of friends local to me. And they, they, We go quizzing sometimes. We're absolutely useless, but we have a laugh. But they're kind of better at some things. I'm kind of good on policy and politics. That's about it. They all know the songs. And you know they played the songs.

Yes, yeah. You know one in your head. You can't think, but even though you might have sung in the choir about three months before. And then when I was doing my PhD, which I started in COVID, and then I finished it in some years, last year in 2025, I met a bunch of women. great kind of different, different women

who are all doing their PhD because they're all interested in children. And one of them, God bless her, called Jude, she organized a weekend away. So we went away for weekend writing. And we've been doing that ever since, three times a year. Wow.

And one of them called Alison is like a really good chef and she's really into the whole Otolengi food thing. So what she can't do with an obergene, nobody can, I can tell you. And so it's great. we go down there, we go all the way to Somerset, and you get picked up, you buy the wine and all of that stuff, you go in, you're immediately talking about policy and new research and new theory, and it doesn't feel like a kind of learning, learning thing, it feels like a natural

conversation, and you fill in a bit of gossip, and you fill in a bit of this, you have a glass of wine, you know, we get fish and chips, we all get along with this, as I say, there's eight of us, and then three of us have done our PhDs, and past now where all of the same. so-called doctors. Two of them are nearly there. And in fact, when we go the next time, we'll be celebrating them. And then the other three will, they'll do it. They'll all do it. Everyone will do it. It'll be a house of doctors. But anyway. So women, women, supporting women. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Breaks away with women. You just can't beat it. You can't beat it. You really can't.

Like, yeah, it's a whole different vibe. You know, much as we love our husbands or our partners or whatever, it's just, it's a different vibe. when you're with women. Like you're much more relaxed and you're much more able to be yourself in some ways. Even though it's a strange thing to say but yeah.

I know what you're saying though but we had a do on I won't go into it but yeah family do but it was all women on Sunday and it is just a different day. It is. It's just that feeling of

empowerment and all being together yeah. It's absolutely brilliant. June I can't thank you enough for this chat today. I'm going to put all of your link Thanks, everything. Thank you.

Thank you. On the pod. Thank you. People will be able to see where your nurseries are, to see where your books are. They can go on and they'll find all your details. But truly, I feel completely honored to have spent this time with you. And I think you're not an extraordinary woman.

Oh, well, you're very kind. It's very kind of you. I hope we have a lunch one day. Oh, I'd love to. Love to. But I don't, I think we'd probably need four hours. Oh, yeah. No, it'll have to be a super long one.

Of course. With my latest thing, which is rhubarb wine. Have you tried Ruth? about wine. Oh, I don't need any more wine to try. No, go on. Where do I get that from? Oh, well, I found it in the Woodman and in Doledge. But my God, I'm searching for it now because I discovered that, well, everyone discovered, whispering angel. And I was away with one of my really close friends just from Scotland and we were having that in a, oh, in a spa back, at 11 o'clock at night in Malaysia talking about pedagogy with people from India and Canada and everything else. And we

all had a cocktail and mine was with Spring Angel. Honestly God, I thought I was in heaven. Fantastic. Absolutely brilliant. Oh no, I'll check it out. I'm going to go on now and have a look for the rhubarb wine. I'll let you know what I think. Thank you.

Thank you. Be the pleasure. Thank you. Take care. Bye now. Bye, bye-bye. Well, what an absolute legend. Lovely June.

What a great woman of, you know, knows everything about everything there is to know. about little children and champions them and the way she does. But when I asked her about her own life as well, what I love is, I don't know,

successful women seem to find time for everything. You know, that's why that lady, that doctor, has got on OBE. I don't know how they find the time. They must get up really early.

They must get up really early, go to bed really late, and never tired. I don't really get it. But you find these incredible women and she's certainly one of them and I really hope you enjoyed that little insight

into Dr Juno Sullivan's life I certainly did I'm off to find rhubarb wine I hope the rest of your week is super duper 07728-28-201919 let me know your thoughts on the Epp and I'll speak to you very soon thanks as always

see ya