Life with Nat - EP271: Bringing up Teens - author of Not a Survival Guide - Nicole Howes

Episode Date: October 11, 2026

There are plenty of books about caring for babies, but teenagers? Nat and speaks to Nicole Howes - author of Not a Survival Guide: Your Straight Talking Parenting Companion; Navigating The Shift From Child To Teen. A Guide to Bringing up Teens. https://www.instagram.com/bynicolehowesGet in touch with Nat, buy tickets for upcoming live shows and link to Patreon, all the family's Instagrams, and more: ⁠⁠⁠lifewithnatpod.komi.io⁠⁠⁠ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello and welcome to Life with Nat. I hope everybody is having a fantastic week. Really excited today. Something that we should talk about more. I sort of bang on about it a little bit. But teens, the teenage years and how we feel as parents regarding teens. And a little while ago you might remember me mentioning a book called Not a Survival Guide by Nicole Hales. And anyway, we've been in touch and she joins me today. And we are going to have to have a book. have a lovely chat and we've got some great questions from you listeners. So let's get on with it. How are you? Yeah, I'm really good. Thank you. How are you? Yeah, really good. Thank you. Not too bad at all. Good. I've got my Nana cardigan on. I mean, it looks cozy. It's right for this time of year, right? I was cold this morning. It's so cold. Yeah, I was freezing. We're turning very European now, aren't we? Well, I've got my cup of tea, so I guess it's the way to do it, right? Perfect.

I've been leafing through your book over the last few days. Yeah. And honestly, it's really good. Thank you. Genuinely. I've found it, I think someone says it's quite raw, and it is quite raw. I've found myself quite emotional at times. Yeah, I think I was certainly in a moment when I wrote it.

So I think that possibly is what comes through. Sometimes you get kind of self-helpy books, if you like, that are a little bit deep and a little bit condescending. And I just think it's really on the nose. You feel like you're talking to a mate. It's very, you know, I really, really urge people to buy it if you've got a teen. I really mean that. I really am enjoying it. It's great.

Thanks, Nat. I appreciate that. It's brilliant. When did you write it? So, probably a couple of years ago now. It was published beginning of last year. Yeah. But yeah, it was about the time where one of my children was heading up to high school themselves.

and I just felt completely overwhelmed and unsupported, not necessarily in home life, but definitely in society. We talk a lot about toddlers, baby groups, all of that stuff. But actually, when you get to teen years, I think you're expected just to have it all together. And it was probably the most out of control during parenting at that stage that I'd ever felt. I'd always felt like I had my ducks in a row, if you like, and then the wheels just felt like they were coming off. How old are the children now, if you don't mind? 13 and 15. Oh, okay, so you're in the next of it.

So I've got Joni, who's 10, and Eliza will be 16 in a couple of weeks. Yeah. I'm just feeling now the change in Joni very, very slowly. But I feel that summer holiday was so lovely and she still felt quite young. And going back to school, even what's it been now? Six days, I've noticed. a real change already. That year six, sassiness, she's being quite rude, but you know that that the change is on the horizon. And second time round you're probably more heightened to it as

well, so you're kind of ready for it and you're like, oh, there it is. I see those little tiny things that probably the first time would have just passed you by. I think so. And I think you just put it down to, oh, they're tired, oh, they're just being a bit cheeky. But it is, it's the hormonal change and those hormonal imbalances that I can see now. We've had lots and lots of messages, as you know, because we've got a little group going, so we can go through all of those. Some of the things you write within the book, you spoke to friends, didn't you, around the table?

Yeah, I spoke to friends and other people, other parents of teenagers and some experts, and yeah, we got around the table and just had a good open heart-to-heart-heart chat, because like I said, I don't think that really happens so much at the teenage years. I don't. And I think you become a bit disconnected with the school life, don't you? I think that's quite a big thing. At primary school, you're in the playground, you're talking to the mums,

you go for a coffee after the school run, you're sort of within their life a lot more and in that sort of school bubble, whereas secondary school, off they go and you're not as connected. And maybe that's why you, I don't know about you, but I feel like those conversations, don't happen as much because you're not in that school playground. Yeah, I think it's a huge part of it. And I think particularly mums, a lot of them feel a responsibility to be back in working life by that point. So you don't have as much time to be spending those hours chatting with people and kind

of working at where other people are at. And I think it's very easy to think that everyone else has it all sewn up. So to actually address a conversation of actually I'm really struggling at this point or I'm finding it hard letting go or I'm just feeling like they're drifting away. from me, sometimes they can feel a bit silly, I guess, those conversations. Yeah, I think so. I wanted to ask you a few things as a parent. And whilst I've got you here, I may as well get my money's worth, should we say. Not money's worth, you know what I mean. I think we can do. Eliza is so grown up. She's a really, really good girl. And I never thought

in a million years, I would have parented the way I have, in the way I have, in the way I have. last two years. Yeah. It really shocks me. And when I say shocked, I mean that Eliza has a boyfriend now and is very happy. And the way I've dealt with that, I thought I would freak out about it and be, you know, really strict about us seeing him and those sorts of things. But actually, I think I'm quite a chilled out person.

And I think the reason I've gone that way is because it's not anything for a quiet life whatsoever. But I think teens have so much to deal with that if they can find some happiness, you should help support them with that happiness. And I wonder what you thought about that. No, I agree with you completely, especially wading into relationships. I think it's a really easy thing as a parent because quite often you can see where things are maybe a red flag or things might be going wrong or you're worried about them being hurt or distracted from study or whatever it is that you have your own kind of viewpoint on it, which we've lived those years. But we have to let them live them themselves so that when they come out of it, they know how to deal with it. They need to be able to

make mistakes. They need to be able to have these moments of heartbreak. And young love, particularly, it runs so hot and fast, doesn't it? And then can just be gone, like, straight away. But those moments are there to be cherished. And I think if parents can support their teams rather than kind of like holding them tighter, they can be there, they know they're there if they need them, then that fosters much nicer relationships for all parties involved as they go forward

because this is a real learning phase and they're still under our eye. They're still under our house. We can still keep an eye and support them and kind of nudge them in the right direction. But it's so important to let them have that freedom as well. And you're absolutely bang on with a happiness, I think the freedom does help to support their mental well-being as well.

I think I'm strict in some areas. You know, Eliza will always say to me, the other day, and you know I'm very honest on here, but the other day I went into her room. We'd discussed the night before, maybe going to the gym together and sorting out the membership or whatever it was. And in the morning, I went into her room,

and it was Saturday morning about a hot quarter 10 or something. She wasn't up yet. and I said, oh, I sort of woke her up, but because I was up and about, and, you know, when you have a morning where you're doing stuff. And I said, right, I don't know about the gym. I'm not sure if we're going to do that, but why don't you come and to walk with me now? And she just went, oh, I will just give us a second. And it turned into a blazing argument because she said, you've just come in. I'm not awake yet.

And you're just talking at me, and I'm not ready for it. And afterwards, although I thought she was a bit rude to me, so I said, I don't think you need to talk to me like that. But afterwards, I sat down and I thought about it. And I thought, I get pissed off if I've just woken up and someone's talking at me, you know? Yeah, 100%. And I think that shows through a lot on family holidays. So I think as parents, we've paid for it, we've booked it, we've planned it, we've done everything. And then we have kind of an itinerary in our heads, but we don't always communicate that very well to our teenagers.

So a lot of the time when teenagers are said to be moody on holidays, we hear that a lot like, oh, they were a nightmare. They were moody. anything. A lot of that is down to the lack of communication, giving them enough warning, letting them know what the next day ahead is looking like, giving them some space. At the end of the day with holidays or even on a weekend, we might remove unintentionally a lot of choice from our teenagers. But this is an age where they have to have that kind of autonomy to be able to do their own thing and make their decisions. And it's not about them going along with what we want all the time and like mollycoddling them either. But a little bit of

like you clearly have like that two-way conversation and respect. Like sometimes it will be a bit of an argument or a lock of horns, but that's okay. Like we're adults, we can get through that. Yeah, but there's another part of me so we can have a debate here. When you say about letting them, you know, to go have their freedom and autonomy, I think they're young. They're living under our roof.

Yeah. Like what you're talking about. Have some respect. You know, have some respect. You're going to do what I'm telling you to do. You're not living on your own yet. You know, you've got a lifetime of, you know, you're still at school. Yeah.

How do you? I'm there with you, but I do think that picking your battles is really healthy. Because I picture it like I have a certain amount of tokens to give. So I have a certain amount of times that I can say to them, I need you to do this. This is the rule. This is why I'm doing it. Like rules and reasoning together, but I have a certain amount of tickets available to me to do that as an adult. and if there are some situations like, oh, actually they don't want to come on a walk

at a certain time that I've said you have to be there at this time. Does that matter that much to me? No. Is it that deep? And if you can have that, those moments of giving them choice are not necessarily about giving them a 100% freedom and allowing them to rule the roost. It's about you choosing, I'm going to give them choice at this moment, so that they've then got a little bit of time to exercise that freedom in a controlled way.

So it's actually not about, oh yeah, just. do whatever you want, go where you want, don't come home and I tell you to come home. Like, there has to be boundaries in place. They're really, really important. And I think when we take them away, that's when we're at risk of becoming more distant from our teens. So we do need those boundaries. I always say this, but Eliza matured early. You say it within the book, you know, every teen is different. Like you have actually said from 10 onward, depending on the child, it starts all of this, you know, what we're talking.

about. And I feel my worst years were, I would say, 13 and 14. Yeah. With Eliza. They were the pits. Really, really bad. When I say really bad, I just mean arguments. I heard the door slamming and the frustration and the anger. There was a lot of that going on. And I thought, oh my God, I just don't know what to do. I just didn't know what to do. But we've got through that. And I think what else that you say and is so important and it made me chuckle to my myself is all of these things will pass, all of these times will pass. But when you're in it, you really think this is it, this is how it's going to be forever. Yeah, it feels so deep. And I think you have so much fear. There's so much fear before we even get to the point of raising our

children at teenagers where people are saying, well, you might find them difficult now and they're a toddler, but wait until their teens. And the teens are given a really bad rep in the press. And like there's a lot of fearmonger in that we don't even realize it's happening to us before we even have these children at this age. And then we feel so responsible for getting them from A to B and doing it in such a way that we still hold on to that relationship with them. I think that fear sometimes guides the way that we parent. And that's what, you know, when we hear people like us saying, actually it's all right, you'll be okay. You can find fun in it. You'll get through it. There will be tough days. But you have that support

network. I think the whole thing feels a lot like, oh, okay, can breathe a bit now. And I can just relax into this a little bit. I picked Eliza up from school yesterday and she was really, she's gone back to school with a real, it's brilliant. She's just got a spark in her step. She's doing, she really wants to do well. She's got mocks in November.

It's very, very stressful time, but she's grabbing the ball with both horns and really going for it at the moment. It's only been a week in. Who knows what I happen next week. But, you know, she's got a really good attitude. And she'd done something in biology and she was saying, Mum, I've got to talk to you about this.

You know, when was the last time you had a really good cry. And I said, I haven't had a good cry in ages. And she said, you know, you wake up and you say I'm aching and my shoulders hurt. You know, you say you feel heavy. You should really have a good cry because, you know, all your muscles hold on to your stress. And I was driving and I thought, yeah, it's probably true. And I just thought, how lovely that she's come into this age to sort of talk to me like that. And she has a good and she said, see, when I have a good cry, I say there's nothing to worry about it. It's good for you. And I do. I worry if she... So healthy.

Yeah. And she's, yeah, she's very good girl. Very good. Yeah, it sounds like you're doing something like... How are you finding 13 and 15? How is it for you? I don't think I could really say it changes, like you said, it changes day by day. Yeah.

Like you have days where you're like, yeah, I've absolutely nailed this. I've got it great. And then other days where you're like, oh my goodness, like, what am I doing? And I think because I spend so much time now talking about teenagers and talking about the practicals and the perfect way to do things, from the start it's never been about having a guide. That's why the book is called not a survival guide. You can't just give a handbook out to someone and get it right all the time. But I think particularly in this role, if I'm honest, what I'm finding is I'm judging

myself on a totally different plane now because I've got all this advice. I've got these practical tools that you can use and they do work for the most part, but they don't work 100% at the time with every single child. And so you definitely have moments even if you think you're doing it perfect, that it all just goes tits up. That's just teenage years. I don't think there is a perfect. No.

And I can imagine having, you know, written that book, there's a lot of pressure on you because everyone must think, oh, it's Mary Poppins over here. She's got it, you know, she's got it down, she's got it right. But like you say, you never know what the day's going to bring. No. And the whole point of the book was actually no one is that.

So the fact that I'm fallible, completely and we all are, that's the whole point. You know, that's what we're trying to say. When we're saying about creating a village, we're not creating a village of these perfect Stepford Wi-Fi moms. We're creating a village of people that are coming up with their problems and their issues and their faults and they're saying, look, this is who I am. And they're laying it on the table because we all need that.

We all need that to support one another. We have to hit the good and the bad. I think it's brilliant to hear the bad. I think it's so refreshing. And it's within any walk of life. If you are honest and say, whatever it is, be it, I've had a shit day, whatever it's about, whatever it's about, the other person will breathe, you know, they will sigh, they will have that relief to think it's not just me and I'm not on my own.

And that's really, really important. I like this little bit. I bookmarked this bit out of not your book, not a survival guide. Scroll less, read more. Interestingly, it has been said that reading to your children when they are young could improve their empathy levels. Now, we know that reading is really diminishing in younger children massively. It's a huge problem.

What are your views about that? And then we can move on to the blue light and the phone, which I think is really important to do as well. Reading, I think, is so important. Like, we have it told to us all the time, and you're absolutely right, is diminishing, especially in our youth. I think it's just a case of finding something that they actually enjoy, because children that are seen to be more empathetic. And actually, as parents, the more we read as well, the healthier it is for us to pattern that and show them that it's a healthy option. I'm really pleased to you said that.

It's not always easy to get them to do it. No, absolutely not. And I'm really pleased you've said that though, because, you know, do as I say and not as I do. Yeah. Doesn't always work. And I have really tried. I'm really trying with Joni. Yeah. Because unfortunately, Eliza doesn't read. She just doesn't read. I've, she's got lots of different books. She loved Frieda McFadden, the film. So she got that book. And she did have a little go. I'm not overly worried. She reads really well. She's obviously reading a lot for school. at the moment. There's a lot of work being done and I hope that in a few years' time she'll find something that she falls in love with and continues to read. But because of that, I'm now obsessed with Joni. I don't, I want her to keep reading. So I've been really good at saying we should sit on the sofa, not just when you're tired at night. You've done the teeth. You've done the

bath. She's in bed and the night, you know, she's exhausted. She reads two pages and she doesn't want read anymore. So I'm trying to say, let's go and sit in the lounge together. I'll read my book, you read your book, and have 20 minutes. And to bring them all in, we do an analog evening sometimes. So we'll sit there and we'll make it an analogue evening. I don't know if you've seen the trend around like teenagers having analog bags where they have a bag of stuff that's all stuff that they can do that isn't on their devices. So I kind of caught onto that and brought that into the house a little bit. And because analogue to them seems cool, I mean, I'm born in the 80s, so whether or not I think it's that cool, I don't know. But the analogue evenings allow us to do something where not everyone wants to read.

So my son does some time. I'm interested. So it could be something like watercolor painting or you could read with the obvious one, but it could be something like crochet or drawing or some sort of puzzle, anything that you like to do that takes you away from the screen. and we all do it. It's like an enforced, like we're doing analogue evening now, and you don't want to make it miserable. Don't get me wrong,

but, and you will get some eye rolls and resistance, maybe, but just from time to time, it just gives you something different to do in the evening and, like, we'll get the snacks out and we'll make it like a nice thing,

put some music on vinyl, ideally, if you're doing your analogue evening, but it depends what you've got at your disposal. I do have that much. I do. And then we'll just make it a bit of a thing, but they like it. It takes them back to something that's not just phones, film, not talking to each other.

Yeah, see, I love that. And I'm thinking to myself, when have you got the time to do that, Nicole? That's what I want to know. 20 minutes? Like, if you've got 20 minutes together, just be like, oh, should we just do some analog? Quick analog, something. Fine. Okay. I don't care. And it's about saying, I don't care what it is. Bring what you want to the table. I don't mind if you're, like, sketching down some, like, my son writes lots of song. So he might be, like, songwriting or something. It's got to be what they want to do.

Yeah. It's just your opportunity to bring that up. I mean, even if it was like your art homework and you were like, oh, actually you're doing your art homework, I'll sit and read a book with you. Yes. That brings it into like a collective rather than it, everyone being off in their own rooms and doing their own thing. I do find the, the 10 near 16, you know, in, in a room for quite a long while.

You know, Eliza does get very annoyed very quickly. Or maybe if she's focused on something. You know, I don't want her to be stressed, so I find that it's just easy for me to, you know, do stuff with Joni and do stuff with Eliza. But you're right, you know, it's definitely getting better that, actually. They are becoming closer. But it's a... It helps just to reinforce that family unit oxytocin as well. So just like there is brain science behind bringing families together.

Like, if sitting that around the table isn't something that works for your family because, I don't know, timings or fussy eaters or whatever it is, that analogue. that analogue opportunity is quite a good way to kind of generate that same family unit thing without it being around food because that doesn't work for everyone. No, that's so true. I think music's a big one for us as a family. Definitely music is huge where we'll all pick a song and we'll do stuff like that, especially in the car if we're travelling somewhere, we do choose a song and no, it's really interesting. It's great.

Should we go on to some questions? Yeah, I'm up for that. Okay. Thank you everybody who has texted or WhatsApp, sorry, in. Here we go. Hannah in Blackpool said, on the subject of teenagers, all I can say is give me a toddler over a teenager any day of the week. My daughter is the same age as Eliza, September born two, and I do feel like we are getting glimmers of her coming through the hating us stage. But I tell you, that's been tough. Like I say, I thought the toddler phase was bad, but nothing prepares you for the teenager. years. I look forward to the episode on this subject. Thank you so much. And that's from Hannah. And I just wanted to, do you think they hate us? Again, all of these quotes, and this is not

having to go at you, Hannah, if you're listening. But again, it's that stereotypical thing of old teenage hate their parents, you know, the teenagers, they hate their mum and dad. And they don't really, do they? No, they don't. They will push you away. There's lots of science to say that their brains develop in a way so they actually want to pull away from the tribe, like it goes back and back and back. So they're pulling away from the tribe because they can't stay around forever. They can't stay at home forever. So they need that distance to be gained between you.

But they will put you away. But I strongly believe they actually need you more than ever. So just keep turning up into their space and, you know, creating moments, even if they're a little bit orchestrated on your part, that you can actually get together. And even if they're eye rolling and even if they're like, oh, mom, you're so cringe.

Like, I don't want to be here. You still have to do it. You still have to keep turning up and collecting them. It's really interesting. You mention that they need you more than ever at this age. Yeah.

Anyone now who's got a baby. Yeah. It's so hard to tell them. Yeah. But I'm like, go to work now. Leave them. They're fine. As they fed and changed,

they'll be fine. And of course, I mean that in the loosest possible way. You know, all children need their carers. Of course. But I completely agree with you. If I could now not work for the next two years, I would love to just be on hand for them only. There's a lot of whispering about teen eternity.

Have you seen that? I have seen. No, you mentioned it to me the other day. Yeah, we chatted, didn't we, about it briefly. Yeah. Yeah, there's a lot of mention about that, and I can certainly see the benefits of it. I mean, I don't think our society realistically is set up to support that.

They don't seem to be doing particularly good job of supporting parents full stop. So at the point where we could get to, where we could afford to take two, three years off to support teenagers, we're probably a long way from that at the moment realistically. But if you've got the time available to you, 100% be around, keep an eye on them. Of course, we all go to work. We all do stuff. I'm really lucky. I can go away and be really, really busy flat out.

but then I have weeks where I am around. And it is about time goes really quickly. And I think us, we need to take responsibility. At 4 o'clock, 5 o'clock when I'm cooking dinner, etc., you know, I'm trying to leave that phone alone. I'm trying to then chat to Eliza or Joni or talk about their day or I always let them get in. That's another thing I do. You can tell me if I'm wrong, but I don't sort of bombard them with. question straight away. I think they need to go and have their snack, watch a bit of

telly, and just chill out. They've had six, seven hours of being spoken at and learning. But I think we are the culprits. When we say, oh, I never see them, I think, well, I bet you sat scrolling on your phone a lot, because that's what we do. Again, it's patterning though, isn't it? Yes. It's showing them what we want them to behave like. Like, we can't. It's hypocritical, especially at this age. They'll just call you out. on it. Yeah, that's right. They will see it as well. It's not just something that we're able to do and get away with now. Like maybe you could if they were a toddler and they're set up somewhere. Like,

our teens know if we're in the other room scrolling our phone rather than sitting with them. Yeah. Or doing something that's worth doing. Yeah. What do you think about all the phone stuff before we carry on with listeners? I know it's such a huge subject. We did. We did. We did. Yeah, I think the phones are a huge issue But what you said a minute ago About taking responsibility ourselves as parents I think that's the first step I do think that the tech companies have a lot to answer for

And I'm hopeful that there's going to be some change There seems to be a bit of a turn in the tide in it But the change isn't going to affect us because we're in it So it's irrelevant I'm not being selfish, it's bloody brilliant, fantastic Hopefully it will impact Joni hopefully when she goes to school there won't be lots of peer pressure

it's next year I'm not so sure I think it still be around but yeah for people my great nieces and nephews for instance you know Ro Roe's kids and Elias please God they won't have this problem we've had a very very rough ride is what I think

Yeah it's been a real learning phase hasn't it and we've kind of been pulled into it yeah we've all been pulled into it but yeah what do you say to people who you know, just, you know, their child if they're out of school is continuously on that phone, they're upstairs, they're away from parents and they're always on it.

Now, Eliza, I'm not sitting here saying that doesn't happen, but genuine, I really, maybe I'm being naive, but we talk about it a lot. I talk about it a lot. It drives her mad, but I do. And whenever I go into her room, she is, she's on the phone, to people on FaceTime. She's talking and she's not much of a scroller.

And I check the times and I look at the screen time and she's good. She's not that bad. What do we say to people? Do you think people have just got lost in it and they don't realise the risks and the harm of the scrolling stuff? I don't think they don't necessarily know the risks and the harm.

But I think it takes a lot of work to get to the point where you put restrictions in place, you put boundaries in place, and then you actually follow them through. It's a habit that as adults, we find really hard to break. So let alone when you're doing it secondhand for your child, who is then constantly resistant of that change.

And there's a lot of peer pressure and other elements. There's so much nuance involved in it. But I would say if you feel strongly that your child shouldn't be on their phone, which I personally do. I don't think that children should have unlimited access. I don't think that they necessarily need to be completely banned from it now at this stage of the children that have been on it because I do appreciate it is a way of them feeling connected and feeling part of a community and there are children in very vulnerable situations that I don't think the blanket rule necessarily works. But I would try small changes. So it could be that you put some rules in place for what time you

come off the phone in the evenings. It could be that you don't have any phones in other places other than shared areas in the house. It could be that the phone goes on charge, downstairs, on a dock, and you all do that. But one of the main things, again, we're touching on it again, is showing examples. Like, do that yourself. When you come in from work, plug your phone into the charger on the hall table or wherever it is so that you're not drawn into it. Don't sit there on your phone whilst you're watching a film together as a family. Like all of those changes, you then have something to say, well, actually, I'm not doing this, and I wouldn't like you to do it either. It's a lot easier than, can you just like stop scrolling, please?

And you're doing yourself. So, yeah, I think that would be the one thing that I would change straight away, like your own response to the situation. Because if you're telling them it's damaging, teenagers particularly, the first thing they will think is, well, you do it. Can't be that bad. Absolutely. Hi, Nat. Saw You was doing a pod about teenagers and just wanted to drop you this little voice note. I'm a mum, but I'm also somebody who works in a secondary school with teenagers and has done for many years now.

And it has been an absolute privilege every September to see those new little 11-year-olds walking through the gates and knowing that I am so blessed that I get to see them grow into young adults. Teenagers these days get a lot of bad press and I think it's unwarranted and it's completely. unfair. Yes, there are difficult teenagers out there, but they have been difficult teenagers since time begun. Are teenagers more difficult these days? Yes, they are, but they are living in a different world to the one in which we lived and the one in which our parents lived. I feel that teenagers that are unjustly judged at the moment by adults, and to me it's crazy, we are the adults who are raising those teenagers. We are the ones who should be, putting the boundaries in and giving them consistency that they need to thrive in life.

Teenagers need consistency. Teenagers need boundaries. You are not their mate. You are their parent. You are their guardian. And if we're getting that wrong, that is what, in my opinion, in my experience, causes the biggest problems. I've worked with teenagers for years. The parents who are the mates, you're not doing anyone any favours at all.

Be their parent. tell them no, make decisions they don't like. I did that for my own teenager when she was a teenager. She's now a young adult. She hated me. She wasn't badly behaved, but she mentally traumatized me for many years. She's 25 now and we laugh about it. She tells me all the time, Mom, thank you so much.

Thank you for not let me roam the streets. Thank you for not let me have social media. Because if she'd have done all the things that she wanted to do, she wouldn't be the successful young adult that she is now. and she's absolutely smashing life and she's gone into working with young people as well and I couldn't be prouder. If you've got a difficult teenager,

hang on in there, keep putting those boundaries in place, stay consistent, understand that they're living in a society that is difficult and give them time, give them space, they will come right.

Oh, what a fantastic message. Yeah, isn't that great? What's your kind of don't be their friend? How do you feel? feel about that because I feel the older Eliza's getting, I'd say we are. We do have a friendship as much as I am, mum. I feel that she is my friend as well. Yeah, I think there's a space for, I think there's a space for that, but I don't think that you would treat her as a friend, as in you would tell her everything that was going on with you or you would confide in her in the

same way that you were your friends. And I think that's the difference. I think there is a a different type of relationship, which is an open mothering relationship that allows you to have that and be the friend to her without necessarily her having to take on your element of a friendship. Yeah. And I think that's definitely, that's the line for me. Hey, Nat, OG listener Claire here. Love, love, love the pod for keeping me sane on the school run and many kids after school activity drives. I'm just replying to your message about teenagers. Jesus, where do I start? I have a 26-year-old, so I've been through it all with her. A 17-year-old, so currently in the thick of it with him, and a 10-year-old, so I've got it all to come.

What I wanted to say was, oh, M.G, my 17-year-old has just started college last week, and no one, and I mean no one prepares you for the literal lack of communication, lack of information, and lack of structure. Not only from my son who thinks he's far too cool to give me any info about what he's up to at college but actually from the college too I'm finding the stark contrast from school really hard to adjust to is it just me or has anyone else felt like this

I have to prize every bit of info out of him I've had no info from the college about anything to the point where I don't even know who to contact to report his upcoming absence next week is it just boys because I don't remember feeding this out of my death when my daughter went to college. I still felt part of the gang, so to speak.

Send help, I'm struggling here. Bless her. Sorry about that, Claire. I do think there is a different, I mean, I do think there is a difference with girls and boys and the information that you get. I do think girls, I think, yeah, I just think females are,

just think we'd like to chat more. End of story, really. Yeah, I mean, it's something I personally see in my, experience. I've got a boy and a girl and I do definitely think that the girls are more in the loop with stuff that's going on from an organisational perspective in my scenario. That's definitely what I've seen reflected. But I guess once they're at college, we have to question like how much do we need to be involved? And the college probably do it on purpose, to be quite honest, because they need them at that stage to step up. And again, they can make mistakes. That's okay.

Like if he misses something or he doesn't get an absence reported or he doesn't have his kit or whatever he needs one day, doesn't matter that much. No, and also he'll learn by that. Yeah, 100%. Yeah, they learn from those moments. And I think as long as you have an open relationship. So you're saying, look, I'm here if you need me. If you want me to help you out with anything, I can. But actually, I'm going to take a step back now because this is your time.

Like we've got this far together. I'm still very much in your corner. I'm still very much there for you. If you need any help, you feel like you're struggling. but I believe in you. I know that you can do it. So at this stage, it might be an opportunity for her to be a little less hands-on.

It's not easy, though, because then he's got a lot. Right. Joe Gregory's been in touch on Instagram and a message, so I know that she's very keen for us to talk about it. Very excited about the teenagers' pod you are recording. I don't have a question so much as a topic. I'd like it to be covered, and it's about drugs, in general,

every element, how to talk to them about them, how to handle things if they find out they're experimenting, you know, drugs basically. You know, Joe's saying she's scared, drugs are now cheaper than alcohol in some cases. And how do you talk to them about those things? How have you done it? What have you done? Well, the first thing I would say is don't ever approach it when there's a heightened situation. So if you have found out they're experimenting or you feel worried or scared about something,

just try and take a step back and let that situation. dissipate a bit before you have a conversation because teenagers won't listen to you in a heightened situation. They're physically not able to engage in a conversation or reasoning with you when they're in a state of stress or anger or a high emotional experience. Maybe they need the big cry that we said about whatever it is. They need to get that out of their system first. Secondly, with any subject that we're talking about, so whether it's drugs, sex, vaping is a huge issue at the moment that kind of ties into the same situation, relationships, any of those things, I would always approach everything with curiosity. So don't go into these conversations with judgment.

Ask questions. So what are you finding, you're seeing at the moment? Or do any of your friends take drugs? Or have you been offered them? What do you feel about it? And if they're like, actually, yeah, this is something I want to try, which some teenage will have that conversation with you like oh my friend has tried this and i want to try it and they can be quite um blunt with you in those situations because some teenagers will think well you can't stop me i'll have this conversation with you because i'm just going to do what i want anyway and i think if we leave these conversations with curiosity we have more chance of getting under the skin of them and giving them reason so give them actual facts and figures and reason if you can as to why you don't think

it's a good idea yet. Let them know that when they're an adult, fully fledged adult, they'll be entitled to make their own decisions on these things. But particularly with drugs, your brain is still developing for these teenagers. And if you can let them understand that, that their brains are still very young, they're still forming, then that gives you something, some point of reason that isn't just you as their mum saying no. Because if that's all they're hearing, the chances are they're not going to respond well to. of it and they're going to do it more. So it's about that curiosity because ultimately we can't actually, if we're realistic, we can't actually stop them from doing these things. We can't

stop them from experimenting. We can't wrap them up and just keep them in the house all the time. There are going to be opportunities, especially with it being so prevalent now that they come across these moments and they have to be given the tools to make the right decisions themselves because we're not on their shoulder at that point telling them what to do, what's right and what's wrong. It's a very tricky one and it makes a lot of people really uncomfortable. Yeah. I think it is. I think it's a really hard one. And I think as young people, you're really curious about the world. And that's just another thing. You think, oh, it's another thing that you've not done and you want to do. And it's glamorized.

Completely. Yeah, it is glamorized, yeah. No, it is definitely a hard one. I've spoken a lot with Eliza, but again, it's very open conversation. Yeah. It's all, it's just spoken about a lot. different things and really at the end of it I say most you know most people that were really known for that at school when I look now haven't really done much yeah yeah 100% and actually if you can show examples of that the other thing the other tool that's quite useful if you don't feel comfortable having direct conversations is to use somebody else as an example so um you could even make up someone oh so and so was talking about at work about their son that had this issue and actually by bringing it away from the teenager

sometimes that allows them to just access those thoughts without feeling like they're being nagged or pressurised or nagged or attacked. Yeah, that's really good. That's quite a good tool. Oh, this is lovely. Right, this is Claire from Kent. Another Claire. Here we go.

Hi, Natalie. First time messaging. I'm fairly new, but I think I've been listening to your pod for nearly six months and I just want to say thank you. I have not had the best of years. I have two children and my youngest has been very unwell mentally, so listening to podcast has been my escape. I'm so glad I found your pod.

It's my escape and I just want to say thank you to you and your family. You're all great. Thank you so much, Claire. I have two lovely daughters. One is 12 and still nice to me. And my oldest who turned 14 this year. And oh my God, don't we know about it? Is it normal to feel redundant?

I feel like she's sacked me. for her friends and I'm very happy for her but why does it come with attitude as well I was so smug last year thinking how lovely she was but just like that she doesn't want to know me much of these days and if she does talk to me it normally turns into an argument especially with me she makes going out with family awkward her don't give a shit attitude is out of control she thinks everything is funny as well I want to go on a holiday soon as a family but I'm actually dreading it I thought going on holiday with Todd is hard, but no one tells you about the teenage years. All I'm asking is, is this normal?

I'm ignoring as much as I can and letting her live her life, but it comes with rules, and I think that's where she doesn't like it, as apparently her friends don't have rules. Thank you for reading. There's a lot in there. I'll let you unpack it. There is. A tale is old as time as well, isn't it, with, well, so-and-so's parents, let me do, let them do whatever, and we've got rules in our house, which we all know is not necessarily always the case. No. The answer is yes, it's completely normal. And it is one of those things that you are going to have to buckle in for and ride through it. I would say to keep the conversations open, as we've said all the way through this chat, we need to keep those lines of conversation open.

So you've got that safe space of community and connection with them. But also make moments where you can just have moments of connection. Like, even if it's just tiny, like instead of shouting her down for dinner, go and get her, walk back with her. Like, have those tiny moments that you're actually physically in her space. And it's a really important thing to, to forge connection in that way. So pick them up from the bus stop occasionally. Have those moments of, like, a conversation apart. From what Claire's saying, though, Nicole, I have to say, I would imagine Claire would say to us, she would just roll her eyes, huff, say, go away. You know, it's really hard. It's tough, isn't it? It sounds like she's quite angry with her mum. She's really got no time for her mum at the moment. What I would say, Claire, what I think I've done in those situations, which have definitely happened before, is I've gone, right, we need to have a chat, whether you like it or not, I'd like you to sit down and we need to talk about this. This is what I've said before. Yes, you may be growing up and you've got a lot going on in your head. I've also got a lot going on in my life, and there's no need to be rude.

and I'd have a really honest conversation and say you can take I don't want to argue I don't want any raised voices I just want you to listen to what I've got to say if you've got something to say afterwards that's fine if you're not interested fine I want to get this off my chest but there's no need to be rude I've brought you up for 14 years I love you very very much I know things are changing but a lesser the attitude please and honestly clear I would that's what I would do yeah I think that's a really healthy approach though because it gives you a chance to just

humanise yourself as well. I think they completely forget that we as parents have feelings as well. And actually, even after that conversation, she still might not care, quite frankly. Yeah. Because they are all up in their head. They're so egocentric at that age. But also, we're the adult. So if you can try not to go back at her, that's really helpful. It's very hard. It's so hard. Yeah, it's so hard. And also, if you do, don't beat yourself up about it. because you're only human in a very high pressure environment that is in your home. It's not something that you can get away from. You know, you have a huge amount of responsibility to your child to, like, keep your head

and keep everything going as it should be. But that is incredibly hard. And I think that also comes with a lot of self-judgment. Like, am I doing enough? Have I done a good enough job? I shouldn't have lost my head then, whatever. Or is this normal? She doesn't feel like.

She feels like she's failing, obviously, because she think, Is this just me? Claire, I can assure you it's not just you. It's everybody. Everybody goes through that. We're not. We're just all living and trying to bring up these children to the best of our ability. Yeah.

And yeah, you're not on your own. And as I say, I also think the anger thing I've got better at, if I get really pissed off, I think about that now. And I just take a minute. Yeah. I walk away rather than argue. And I am good at that now. But also conflict resolution is a really hard.

healthy tool to show them as well. So they need also, they need to see you if you flare up unnecessarily and you can apologise for that and say actually the reason that this happened was this, this is how I was feeling, this is what happened. And yes, I did this and I'm sorry I shouted or lost my temper, whatever it is. But actually, then you can expect that of them back in return. So when they lose their heads, wait for the apology. You'll probably have it where they like, they've kicked off and then suddenly they're at the door like looking in, trying to. see, gauge, can I come in, like, has mum forgiven me? Like, that patterning of how you respond to high pressure situations will rub off on them.

Definitely. And that will make them stronger as time goes on. And I have definitely apologised to Eliza men in time for losing my rag or shouting to, you know. Yeah. Exactly what you've just described. I've said, I'm so sorry. I'm coming on my period or, you know, it's just stressful at the moment. I've got a lot of my head.

I didn't need this today, but I am sorry for overreacting. And we did, yeah. And she's good at apologising. Jonathan as well so hopefully she's got that from me well 100% oh nat the teenage years so weird how so much info and material on those young years but not the same on the teens this is why you need to get Nicole's book honestly it's brilliant mine have both been quite easy teens really my son has been very placid with the exception of two or three occasions and is a good lad we drop him at uni on Saturday I'm trying so hard to hide my emotions on this as I want it to be a

positive experience for him and it's not about me, but I worry that he's a bit too kind and nice and a bit of a donut. Oh, bless him. I don't think I give him enough credit, but he does live in his own little world. He's very happy there. My daughter, who is three years younger, same age as your Eliza, is super clever and could move out tomorrow. She's self-sufficient and yet she's going through a really hard time mentally, weight, self-esteem and has caused huge confrontations. We've brought them up the same way, yet two totally different problems and worry. I often feel very judged by how they are and blame myself for all of the above. I worry about them both more now than ever.

It's a tough world out there for them now and getting started in the world of work. But it's also wonderful to see them grow and become their own people and deep down knowing you did all you could and that is all you can do from M. Lovely message. Thanks, Emma. But it is. It's a, I see where you're coming from there, Emma. I think I genuinely, if Eliza could drive now,

I feel like Eliza could live on her own. Apart from clearing up, you know, a standard, you know, which doesn't do everything. But what about that? What do you think about that, by the way? Because a lot of people sort of frown on me, my children don't really do any chores. They're not?

No. Because they're laid out for them and they refuse them or because you don't put them in place? Just don't really put them in place. Yeah. Joni makes her bed. Eliza will tidy her room of an evening. She won't go to sleep in her messy room.

So if it's clothes, bed, da-da-da. But again, I think everyone's life is different. Yeah. Eliza gets up super early. We're leaving super early. I don't expect her to tidy her room in the morning, really. In terms of dinner, sometimes they might bring their plates over to the side,

put them in the dishwasher, but very rarely. I do, I just get on with it, maybe because I'm at home a bit more now. You know, I've always just done that. And again, I think it is generational, Nicole. Personally, I think it's each to their own in the household. I tend to not call them chores or help for me. I think that's something that we've eradicated.

So rather than saying, would you mind helping me with? No, it's our house. Yeah, completely. And actually that is the only, like for me, it's not a, about like coming down on them like children must do chores because I appreciate like their children like do they need to be doing that much stuff and that much work around the house probably not but we do have certain jobs that are allocated which we just had a family chat about and we're just like right who's going to do what at the moment I'm doing everything and that doesn't well between me

and my husband my husband is at work out at work more than I am how and about so I'm doing a large majority of the housework, what are you going to do? And then straight away, they were like, all right, well, I'll do the dishwasher and I'll do the recycling and someone will do something else. And the jobs get split. And actually, it's been a good few years now that we've been running it like that. That's very good. They just know they're their jobs, but they've got the pick. Like, it doesn't bother me what they do as long as we know that we're working collectively together on it, rather than it just be like, I'm running the house and it's all my responsibility because there is a value to the work that women do in the home.

And that's what I want them to know that that value should be shared across the family. I'd say Mark and I, yeah, we're very good at sharing stuff out, but we do it all. For me, really being honest, I just think, Joan is 10. She's just too little. It doesn't need to be doing.

As long as she's putting her two, you know, once she's brushed her teeth, those things go away. her things that she's doing need to be looked after. So, you know, I'll say if you've played with that, you need to put that away now. Yeah. If I, you know, I do install that. It's probably more than you think you're doing then. I think at that stage, if they're doing those things, then great.

Yeah. Also, sometimes they like it. Like, they like the responsibility of having something that they're doing, adding to the family. And that dopamine and that reward that you get from doing something well for other people. That's a really nice thing as well. Very good, very good. Maybe that's your analogue evening sorted.

Just get them to do all the housework. Yeah, that's true. That's true. I'm not going to sit here. I do treat myself now to a cleaner. Good. Just because everything is very, very busy. And I do.

I love cleaning, putting music on and doing it. But actually something has to give sometimes. I don't know how you feel, but something does have to give. And I think, actually, if I can afford to, have that two or three hours a week, that gives me time to go for an hour's walk. And actually that's more beneficial for me. I always think we have a cleaner, the cleaning company, two lovely sisters actually that have

been working with us for a really long time. So they're kind of like part of our family vibe as well. But I always think there's a value in having that if it allows you to do something else. So like you say, if it gives you the space for your mental health, great. But also it might just give you the chance to earn money with skills that you're really good at. I'm not actually a very good cleaner. I'm not very good at cleaning. And I'm always disappointed after I've spent ages doing it and it actually looks rubbish.

I would prefer to be having a conversation with you or earning some money doing something else. Then I would do that. So it works out better value for me to free up that mental space. Free up that time. Yeah. Time is, you know, so precious, isn't it? And we're both very lucky to be able to have a cleaner, may I just add? Absolutely.

It's a huge privilege. Huge privilege. Hi, Nat. Saw your story about the pod talking about teens. I have three children. My daughter is 21 and has just graduated university. My son is 18 and is about to start Warwick University after getting A-star AA in his A-Levels.

Amazing. My youngest just failed all his GCSEs after 12 months of mental health issues and suicidal ideation after he was, manipulated and blackmailed by a very disturbed girl. He was briefly dating. Luckily, he's now on medication and we're getting him an autism assessment and he's doing much better. They are all so, so different, but the key is communication. Please keep talking to your teens. I know it's easy to let them be, keep your nose out of their affairs and let them get on with things, but if my son didn't feel safe enough to come to me when there was a problem, I dread to think where we would be

now it doesn't bear thinking about. Also wanted to say I love the pod. I started in March and I'm a year behind on episodes but I try and listen as often as I can. Thank you so much for sharing all of that information. Goodness me. And it just shows you, doesn't it? You hear a story like that. Three children, three completely different stories.

You know, you can parent, you can be the parent, you can give the love, you can do all the same things, but everyone's root in life as a human being standing alone is going to be different. And that's the other thing that I really think that we need to remember. We can do the best we can, but you should not hold guilt. Unless you have not been present and, you know, it's not been a good upbringing. Do you know what I mean? But, you know, you can only do your best and you've got to let them find their own way. Yeah, you're exactly right.

You can only let them do what they do and you can be there and you can keep showing up and like that ladies had totally different outcomes just from experience and individuals. So there's definitely a lot of guilt that floats around during these years. You definitely have put a lot of pressure on yourself. And that was definitely part of the catalyst of writing the book was the guilt that I was feeling, like the self-judgment and the worry of like, have I done enough? Like, what have I done up until this point? And like, where is that going to end up?

and I see that time and time again in the conversations that I'm having with parents, particularly moms, it's so heady in guilt. But we have to let it go. Like you said, it has to just wash over us because it doesn't serve us and actually it doesn't serve our children either to be caught up in that.

No. No, you're right. And I think also just that time, what that lady just said, it really struck a chord, and you've been saying it all morning, but you have to talk to your kids as much as you can. As much as you think, oh, they're growing up and they want to be on their own. You've got to keep that connection

because you won't know what's going on. You have to push your way into their lives a little bit. You have to be hands off, but you have to kind of get under the skin of what's going on in their lives, even if they don't really know that you're doing that. I mean, I'm not suggesting that we need to be like spying on them from bushes and stuff, but we do need to have. I mean, yeah, literally, that's how I feel like I spend most of my life, to be honest.

But it is about setting up those moments so you can kind of find out what's going on and you can ask questions and you can be as curious as possible. Like even if they're like, oh God, leave me alone. Like, stop going on about it. The other thing I'd say is I have two completely, again, completely different human beings, two girls. Joni tells me everything and I mean everything. I have this. She tells me, everything, the whole day of school, every lesson, who's spoken class, who didn't, what she's done at lunchtime, things that she feels worried about.

She just chats, and Eliza has never been like that. She's good, she will talk to me, but I know there's a lot that she'll probably think, oh, I don't need to tell her that. And she's been like that since she was eight years old. It's not a teenage thing, it's just the way she is. No, and sometimes it is a teenage thing. Sometimes they get to that point of, like, they've always been the child that's told you, everything. So you rely on that and you kind of let you let yourself think, well, they'll tell me.

They'll tell me if they need to. Or they'll ask me the question. And actually, sometimes we have to go to them with the conversation rather than waiting for them to ask the question because even if they've always been the child that's chatted and chatted and chatted. That can change. Yeah. I'm not just seeing your real about teenagers. I just have a few words and they are what the fuck. I genuinely have no idea how to navigate this sometimes. And all I hear myself saying sometimes is, oh, you know, when I was a teenager, it's so different now. I don't think it's talked about enough, the hormones and especially teenagers mixed with a menopausal household.

That's another whole different ballgame, I think. I have to constantly stop myself from being a nagging old cow. I'm repeating myself. I'm sick of the sound of my own voice when teenagers are concerned. But yeah, just what the fuck. That's all I carry with the word teenagers. Love the pod. Love them all.

None of them my favourite because they're just all brilliant. Cheers, Shelley from Dover. Thanks, Shelley. I love that. That's bang on, isn't it? Oh, Shelley, it's true. I think, yeah, I think you're right. I think we are discussing perimenopause and menopause,

but not along with bringing up teenagers enough, the household filled with hormones and emotions is, it's a lot, isn't it? Yeah, it definitely is. And it can be a really hard one to navigate because actually at this time, when we're perimenopausal, menopausal, actually we do need to give ourselves some time,

and that's one thing I don't think you have. I don't think you have a lot of space for your own thoughts because teenagers take up a lot of space, like mentally, in your house. there's a lot of planning what's coming next, checking they're okay, like keeping on top of all of that stuff. It's mentally, like the resource needed for that is huge, let alone if you're then going through your own things or you're forgetting stuff,

you've got a bit of brain fog or like your emotions are heightened, whatever it is, just makes everything harder, everything harder. And also your teenager can possibly see you changing. Yeah. And that's hard as well. Yeah. And any additional strain on relationships as well at that stage because, you know, you don't, relationships come into this situation where we have perimenopausal and menopausal feelings. You've then got teenagers in the mix who are up later and later and later in the evening and it kind of squashes your time.

If you're living at home with a partner, it will squash the time that's available to you and them to just be on your own because they don't go to bed at seven anymore. They'll be sitting there probably later than you are. You're absolutely right. That's a huge strain in relationships I think gets completely overlooked. I completely agree. And that evening that Mark and I used to get, you definitely don't get it anymore. No.

You just don't, do you? No, it just goes. What I think about that is how much I love the children. Yeah. And I'm not going to moan about that because I know once Eliza's driving and he's at college and, you know, how many years have I got left actually of moaning that, oh, our evening.

We'll have how many evenings together in the future? Won't know what to do with ourselves. You're like, you should come around in a minute? Yeah. I hope the girls are coming for dinner. Right, here we go. Last but not least. Morning, Natalie.

I just thought I'd give a voice note in regard to the podcast that you were doing regarding teenagers. At the moment, I've got a teenage daughter who shall be 14 in January next year. She's year nine. currently she's just gone into. She has been struggling since I would say the end of year six with going to school, anxiety,

and then year seven, it kind of stemmed back again and year eight was just the attendance was really bad and school wasn't really doing a lot for her. She died her hair a couple of times and they complained about that. and then also she has, I think there's a lot of influences on social media at that age for children. They all have to like confines to the same norm and like they all have to have eyelashes, similar clothing and that.

And if they don't, it's like people are going to, I don't know, not be their friend or something. and I try and explain to her you don't have to follow suit in everything you're lovely as you are without eyelashes and makeup and all sorts and obviously they have to do these TikToks and they try and do Snapchat's and things

and it's just a scary world I think oh thank you for that what I would say though about that is again it's all over the years. We all have come from a place where you want to be in part of the gang,

part of the crew. I don't know about you. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I remember being at school. You want to be in the cool gang. Yeah. Or if you're not in the cool gang, I wanted to be in the indie gang.

So I think those sorts of things, those tribes, those groups have always been around. But when the lady said, oh, they have to do these TikToks and they have to do, they don't have to, but it's very, very hard that now at schools, that's the thing, isn't it?

If you're going to be in videos, you need to look a certain way if you want to join our gang, and then we're going to be doing these dances, and I just think it might, I can't imagine what being a teenager is like now. No, I do agree. I think the social pressures are probably more than they've ever been in a lot of ways.

Of course, we had trends and fashions and things that we had to do when we were teenagers as well. My eyebrows have never recovered from within the thinnest eyebrows in the world at that stage, I'm sure. I know. It's like we're eyebrow sisters. We are. But, yeah, it's sign of the times. But, and I do think these things will pass. I think year on year, these things will pass.

And hopefully with the changes that are being made around social, there will be changes to that. But right now, all we can do is do what she's doing. reiterate that she's lovely she is, she doesn't need to do this stuff, and still expect that she's probably going to want to do it anyway. Like, we're not going to be able to change that whole society set up as their parents telling them that they look beautiful as they are. But those messages are still just as important as they've always been. Like, they have to be able to come home and know that they're safe and supported and love just as they are. And as long as they know that, hopefully that will give some element of strength through situations.

that when society is piling on the pressure, there's so much, again, coming around on social that I'm seeing, not let alone what the teenagers are seeing, as far as being the right sort of person, being the right sort of size, having the right sort of things. All of those things aren't going away anytime soon. So all we can do is be consistent in their home life. Yeah.

And don't be scared, I think, of saying, I'm pixelizer up late the other night from a friend's house. and I was driving, and I thought something in my head, and I thought, oh, why am I not saying that out loud? And I just turned around. She was sort of dozing because it was late. And I said, I love picking you up in the car. I wish I could drive you around forever.

Yeah. And she said, oh, that's a bit weird, but I like it. Yeah. I said, I mean it. I like it is what I'm aiming for. You know, I said this honestly. I said I could just wish I could just drive you around forever knowing that you're safe next to me, you know.

Yeah, how nice is that to have the opportunity to say that to your child, though? Yeah. There's something really beautiful about that, isn't there? And those little small moments. And I think you're right. I think they stick. Yeah. I think those little tiny moments that you think are a bit insignificant, they stick.

And I think as long as you are telling them that they are, like you say, you love them so much. You cherish them. You're proud of them. You know, that's all you can do, really. Yeah, 100%. Keep telling your children that you love them. Well, I can't thank you enough for this chat. I've absolutely loved it.

I'm sure we'll get bundles and bundles more messages. 0778-28-201919. Let us know your thoughts. And once you hear it, if you've got any advice or questions, that you would like Nicole to answer, perhaps we can do a cheeky Patreon app with a few more Q&As or something, if you're up for it, Nicole.

Yeah, of course, always. Brilliant. The link to Nicole's book will be at the bottom of this episode. I'm going to say it again. It's not a survival guide. And it really is something that you can open. up. It's not too much to handle. Again, you can just flick through and just read a page every now and again, and I think it will make you feel better. So thank you so, so much. Thank you for having me.

Thank you so much, and I hope you have a great rest of the week and a lovely weekend. Thank you. Thanks, Nicole. Cheers. Bye. Bye.