Life with Nat - EP80: Donna Ashworth - Poet and extraordinary woman

Episode Date: January 16, 2025

I really hope you enjoy this as much as i did. Please let me know on 07788201919 in a WhatsApp message. Thankyou and enjoy. Love Nat. X Find all of Donna’s work here - https://donnaashworth.com/  Including her new “Words to Life By: A Daily  Journal” https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1785307150?ref_=cm_sw_r_ffobk_cp_ud_dp_M480RB6Q1EQMG9MS8P51&skipTwisterOG=1&bestFormat=true&newOGT=1  Nat’s Recommendations Wendy Cope - https://poetryarchive.org/poet/wendy-cope/ Jenny Joseph - https://poetryarchive.org/poet/jenny-joseph/ Donna’s Recommendations Harry Baker - https://www.harrybaker.co/  Hollie McNish - https://holliepoetry.com/ Mary Oliver - https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poets/mary-oliver Please subscribe, follow, and leave a review. xxx You can find us in all places here; https://podfollow.com/lifewithnat/view INSTA: @natcass1 We're also on Facebook now too: https://www.facebook.com/lifewithnatpod A 'Keep It Light Media' Production Sales, advertising, and general enquiries: [e-mail] SHOW INFO: Life with Nat - it’s me! Natalie Cassidy and I’ll be chatting away to family, friends and most importantly YOU. I want to pick people's brains on the subjects that I care about- whether that’s where all the odd socks go, weight and food or kids on phones. Each week I will be letting you into my life as i chat about my week, share my thoughts on the mundane happenings as well as the serious. I have grown up in the public eye and have never changed because of it. Life with Nat is the podcast for proper people. Come join the community. ♥️ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Visit BetterHelp.com today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P.com. It's such an honor to have you on Life with nat donna i'm just trying not to freak out oh well i'm doing the same so my first message to you is my agent lovely scott mitchell sends his love to you and robert well i didn't know he was your agent he is yeah wow i didn't know that i knew that he knew you i was just chatting to him we were doing some work and I mentioned that I was lucky enough to have you on the pod and he sends all his love to you he's just a diamond of a human being he really really is I'm very very very fortunate to have him

as a friend and a work colleague oh he's just glorious I've only met him once you know I met him on holiday with Barbara and I'll never forget it it was one of those nights yeah you know when everything just suddenly changes somebody says something to you and it sticks with you for decades oh that's amazing yeah but we've kept in touch ever since and my husband and he go way back yes oh that's brilliant oh Donna I just I don't even know where to start I've been following you and your poetry, you know, as long as everybody else, you know, has discovered you through COVID times and all of that. And I was thinking this morning of where to begin. And I just thought I'd firstly just say thank you for bringing everyone such hope and joy.

Oh, you're welcome welcome it's a pleasure it's just something that I do to help myself and always have had to do to help myself I've got quite a naturally dark melancholy mind I'm not a positive sunny disposition so that sort of way of thinking and you know reaching for for light and hope has helped and I thought maybe if I share it it'll help other people and you know why not and it has so wonderful it really has I have a stack of your books here. Ooh. A stack of your books. I have Wild Hope here and I have Growing Brave. And then I bought, only last week, your new Words to Live By, your daily journal. Now, I know it starts in Jan, but I think I've still got time, haven't I? If people want to buy this, I know that it starts on Jan the 1st but don't be disheartened

we're only 11 12 days in and I suppose when you buy it you can start on the date you you've bought it and continue from there is that what you'd say? It's not actually dated it runs through the months day one day two day three yes but the idea being that you start at whatever point in the year. Yes. Your journey starts because I'm this whole sort of 1st of January, change your life, new year, new you. It's too much. I'm completely with you. I like January as a sort of I need time to regenerate after December.

That took everything out of me. So I take January as a bit of a stepping stone to February and even February is a bit of a stepping stone to March because that's spring that's when things grow and begin so anybody starting anytime start on the day that you you get it yes go back and intro and come and join the group and get a feel for it but your journey begins the day that you begin and I think that's even better yes because that's your personal path then yeah so yeah so chilled you can't I don't know about you but I've never stuck to anything if it's demanding because if I'm overwhelmed or I'm too busy or life hits me with something that's it I can't absorb what I need to take in

I can't read self-help books I can't do all the things that I know that are going to help me because I'm overwhelmed so it has to be really chunks of easy simple help I think you're absolutely right I also feel quite I'm quite a stubborn person so I don't like being told what to do and like you say when it's a demand, you must do this. You must adhere to this. Be that food, be that, as you say, learning something. I need to do it at my own pace. And I think with life at the moment, everybody is so busy. Life is so fast. I certainly agree with you on January being that kind of what's that lovely Swedish word I can't I can never pronounce it Higa yeah Higa I think and it's about you know we are mammals it's slow bedding down you know I can't do that this morning it was I didn't want to get up I didn't want to take Eliza to school this morning I didn't want to wake her up Donna at half past six it was dark and cold and I thought I just wanted to sleep and lay in but life doesn't allow I didn't want to take Eliza to school this morning. I didn't want to wake her up, Donna, at half past six.

It was dark and cold and I thought I just wanted to sleep and lay in. But life doesn't allow that. It doesn't. Everything in your cellular body is telling you to lay low, store your energy, you know, look outside, it's winter. You're wintering. You want to be in time with what's going on around you. our life goes not only is it the middle of winter but it's the first of january so if you don't mind just stripping yourself completely of all your habits and rebuilding a whole new super person

that would be great without any light and six hours in the day that you can actually see outside so it makes no sense to me and and I'm really sort of trying to remind anybody who's reading anything that I've written that, you know, it doesn't have to be like that. You can decide how you're going to, what you're going to listen to and what you're going to flow with. And life will be far more peaceful

if you do that your way than what you're being the shouts you know knew you knew you ignore it it's brave to ignore it i ignore it a lot of people have said are you doing dry jan and it could be about anything you know not alcohol or that diet and you've got to lose loads of weight or are you stopping this stopping that i think january is the worst month you could possibly stop anything yeah you're skint yep we're all a little bit overweight or we're certainly hungover or full of too much sugar there's nothing exciting to look forward to for a little while you're back to work you know all the festivities have been ripped away from us the twinkly lights are down I keep

some all the way through not my tree but some lights yeah and then it's like right you have nothing to comfort you or inspire you and now we want you to do all this and it just makes no sense does it none at all Donna can I talk to you about if we go right back when did you start writing poetry because believe it or not I've I've always loved poetry I went to a drama school when I when I was eight and a sure and we read poetry there it was an improvisational thing it wasn't a starry kind of stagey school and it was amazing and uh she was an autodidactor and we'd learn new words we had a Winston word board because Winston Churchill learned a new word from the dictionary every day and one of

the things we used to do was sit and we'd read poetry and that that began my love and I used to have well I still have poem for the day and the books each day there's a poem for each day of the year when did you when did you get into poetry were you young when you started writing a bit like you I love poetry. And I took to it immediately from school, but I knew very early on that I liked simple poetry that went for your heart. I wasn't down for this sort of poetry that needed to be dissected a hundred times

to try and work out what the poet is telling you. I like the sort of of the far more simplistic, but, you know, tug at your heartstrings because it gets your feelings up, doesn't it? And whatever it is you're pushing down or you feel like you need to get in tune with, poetry will get right in there and do it in such a short space of time

that might take you, you know, an hour in conversation to get to a deeper layer. But with poetry, you cut through the shallow, all of the small talk, you're straight to, oof, that got me in the feels. So I've always loved it and I've always kind of written it. But when I say written it, I mean, so you're obviously the one in your people's lives,

but I think every friendship group or family has somebody who will write a little poem for a birthday or something like that. Or, you know, there's always sort of one person who's got... My niece, Maria Roro, who features on my pod. Yes. She always writes a little poem for all of us. She wrote one for my 40th and she loves poetry as well. She loves it. What you've done, which is brilliant, is you've brought it back again.

Poetry is always there, but I think your poetry has really captured people in this, you know, the day and age that we live in now. And you are, am I right in saying, you know, you have actually, I can't remember the fact now, but you've brought, you know, you are bestselling and you have brought poetry back to the forefront. Yes. So it's the third year now that I've been the bestselling poet in the UK. It's amazing. It's been sort of five years that I've been publicly sharing.

Yeah. So your niece, I was the person who would write the poem for the 40th of what and I've literally gone from that to what would happen you know if I really bit the bullet and shared this and was brave enough um but I had a real condition on this not that I knew it would ever work but I wanted it to be really useful. So this is poetry that you can use every single day. Anybody can use it. It doesn't have to be a funeral or a wedding or a really tough time. It could just be a random Tuesday. You need a wee bit of something. We all love a good quote on the internet, don't we? Because, you know, say what you like about them they do they give you a little bit of motivation I agree so this was I wanted to simplify it even further to a daily page you open

a random page a day you get a message whatever that message is it seems to fit in with what you're thinking you're doing or or somebody close to you is going through something it seems to help and so my mission was not to become a part of the poetry world because I didn't think they would have me I thought it was too closed and gatekept for everybody daily useful pages and of course it comes under poetry because it is poetry and but but then you get into a whole situation where people are saying, you know, oh, well, poetry is not really supposed to sell thousands of books. Because it's not about that. It's about this mysterious art that only a few people can do, which I think is a load of rubbish.

Well, it's brilliant because you've brought it to the masses. Yeah. We can all do it. It's real and it's about real life. I lost my dad four years ago in April and I lost my mum when I was 19. And your poems about grief comfort me so much. And yes, they sometimes might make me cry. But again, it's needed because, you know, you keep a little lid on that and sometimes you need to have a cry.

But other times it's just it's so comforting to read your stuff and and and like you say you feel it and and I think anybody I would absolutely anybody who who has been through loss should read your poetry and anybody who you you read you write about everything you know even even I've got a couple actually that I saved that I would love to I love this now my mum my mum never ever liked her photo being taken she run out cover her face with a pillow and only when I lost her at 19 and now I look back I really don't have many photos of her so this resonated with me. So may I read it? Yes, please. I would be delighted.

So this is for everybody listening who doesn't like their photo being taken. Please take note, take stock, please. In the photo, it's easy to shy away from photographs because you're so busy, so exhausted, not feeling your best. It's easy to be the taker and never let yourself be in, when holidays make you feel exposed or less than. But one day, your loved ones will search for those memories to bolster their own. Those pictures, no matter how you look, are set to become absolutely precious and no one not one of them will care how together you appear they will care very much that it is you and all of your you-ness will be the exact gift they very much need in that moment be in the photo my friends they are not for you oh you gave me goosey bumps

your words are just beautiful thank you do you sit down obviously the journal now you you know it's lovely you're encouraging people to sit down each day and write and I can't wait to start the journal myself do things just pop up in your head? How do they come in? Do you sit down and work? Do you say, right, I need to write 10 things today or could you just be going for a walk and think I've got five ideas, I must get them down? It's constant and it's always been constant and prior to doing this every day, the reason I struggled and have struggled so much with my mental health over the decades is because I'm neurodivergent. So my brain processes everything in a really unique way.

My son is as well. And we're a mix of the ASD and ADHD, which has a whole other thing. They fight one another and so on. So, you know, in short, my brain is like, and I will overthink every situation to the nth degree. And I can be worrying about 400 people at the same time, as well as writing lists. So learning to sort of extrapolate things from that mess and figure out what was true, what was fear, what is an emotion that I need to deal with and what could possibly be useful has been a saviour for me.

So this is where the poetry comes from. And anybody listening can hear from the one that you've just read. It's just a message. It's just thoughts. I've not sat down and thought, does this one rhyme? What kind of a poem am I doing here? There is a message and I want to put it into a format that people will go, I got that message. Not, wow, that was written so cleverly or beautifully. I got that message. Well, it was. Thank you. It was. I read beautifully.

So taking the pressure off myself at the very beginning not to edit was, I think, the only reason why I'm here. If I had edited myself in the beginning, changed the format or gone, that's not really clever enough or I need to, then I would have been toast. I wouldn't have been 10 books later and enjoying this job. So I used to put it on social media deliberately to let it go. It's gone from me now. I don't put it on social media deliberately to let it go. It's gone from me now. I don't own it anymore. Let it fly away and find whoever it wants to find. And that's their business.

The poem and the person, that's their journey now. And then they share it, takes on a whole new life. So I think taking the pressure off, not comparing, not judging myself. If anybody wants to write or whatever creative thing it is that you're doing if you can make that deal with yourself to that was your performance let it go do not go back over it and go you know but other people do it this way maybe that's what I need no because it would not be yours and it will not be as special as it was when it came home. I think you and I have got a lot in common, Donna,

because I've got a neon sign in front of me, which I look at every day and it says, what people think of you is none of your business, which is one of my favourite quotes. Yeah. And I think I, in a very different way, do the same. same yeah I went on a podcast Monday Mile lovely girl Amy Fuller by the way it was lovely and we went for a walk she does a walk and it was really interesting because she said oh you're so normal when did you decide to be the way you are and I thought that was really interesting because I said

I don't understand what you I am me I don't think about how I'm being I'm just I just be you know I don't ever I haven't got a persona the way I am now talking to you is the same as I talk to my mark or my kids and there's something very freeing about that and I think that's why we are successful because people like real people. Can I ask though that you know that that's one of the most difficult things in the world for a lot of people to do was there ever a point you felt like you needed to change that or edit it or make a, or have you just always had that self-assuredness? I've always just been me. I think it comes from family. I think it comes from being very grounded.

I'm a Taurus, and my moon was in Taurus. I'm double grounded. It's interesting. You know, it's a question that is asked all the time. Why are you so down to earth? And I just want to be myself. Interesting. You know, it's a question that is asked all the time. Why are you so down to earth? Yeah. And I just want to be myself. And if people, it's the same as this pod, I do it, but I don't overthink what I'm doing. You're on because I love what you're doing. I want to talk to people that I'm interested in, that I love. And the reason I have my family on it is because they interest me. And people like that. They do.

Yeah. So I just think we need more real, real stuff in the world. So what I'm doing now is, I mean, I'd be lying if I said otherwise. I've been a hundred different people in my life. So a lot of the neurodivergence, you learn to mask really early on. So I'm 50 in April. Oh my goodness goodness look at you you look amazing although age is just a number but you look incredibly beautiful I can't wait to be 50 I'm so excited I'm older I'm really weird like that but um this whole journey has been coming back to but who am I really when I'm not trying to be this person? And I mean, I have been different

versions of myself deliberately. So I look at somebody like you and I just love it. It is like chicken soup for the soul. I absorb all of your, you say normalness. And in a way it's normalness, but it's not really, it's really special to be able to be normal and to exude that and inspire other people to do it as well. So I'm fascinated by it. I think you're just absolutely brilliant. Oh, thank you, Donna. I think going back to being different versions of yourself, I think as you grow up, you get influenced by different friendship groups so what I would say as much as kind of I have been myself I think you really do go through some tough times finding the real friends and kind

of trying to go along with certain people that actually aren't really your bag and you try and be like them I've certainly done that you know in my growing up years and I think you get braver and as the years go on you know you really can count your real friends on on one hand and you get less open to giving your time and energy away to other people who are not worthy of your time in that moment you know who are not using it wisely who are not regenerating back and it's sort of getting older has been the best thing I've ever done not that I had a choice but God it doesn't have bringing peace and freedom if you go with it you've got to go with it yeah you've got to face it and go right of course this is happening and how amazing it's happening I'm

still here my friends are not that's exactly it isn't it with age the aging process how women perceive themselves and how we all want to sort of strive to remain young again I've you know I'm not never say never but you know I've never kind of done much to you know I don't really have facials or Botox or things like that I might enjoy it next month who knows so I'm not against any of it but I feel like with the aging process so many people don't have that opportunity we lose people very very young and I just think how amazing how lucky are we to get up and still be here and be able to have another day I do I genuinely do that I genuinely wake up maybe not every day if I'm late and it's raining and I've got to hurry up

but there are many days that I really do say look we're here again we've survived another night it's crazy it is a miracle and I think as well with the ageing process I'd be lying if I said I don't struggle with all the wrinkles God my knees are driving me mad at the moment

who knew how wrinkly they could get I'm going with it and I'm trying and some months I might you know especially since I've suddenly been invited to appear on things and so on you know that's new for me let's dig into that so yeah tell me about people you've met or or experiences you've had I saw um the other day on Instagram you were there reading and Fann Cotton was there I think you were somewhere tell me about how you're finding the celebrity world shall we say I'm finding it absolutely refreshing because the people who I've met are people who have have connected with me somehow through the words and have helped me just because, just because.

They have spoken to me as I would imagine I would speak to my friends, you know, every single day. There's been no ears and graces. There's been no weird sort of feeling of you're on a pedestal. And that for me has been wonderful to discover because I always imagined it might be quite different and you might feel, you know, that people who are in the public eye and really sort of up there would have become part of that, you know, have believed that that height sort of thing. Everybody that I've come across has been just like talking to you right now. I've been so excited that I was coming on to talk to you this morning. I've been like, how is this even my life? I've been screenshotting the little message

you sent to my family group. Just like, oh my God, no way. It's so fun. And it's perfectly fine to be giddy about it and excited about it. You know, you're meeting new people it's exciting you've seen them you know in the public eye for years I think it's a wonderful thing and everybody that I've met has just completely bolstered that opinion further mostly women

that I meet they're just helpful because they like what you're doing or they're nice people they're also looking for things that are light and positive and you know real and authentic so I've not I've not come across anything yet that has made me think oh no I can't be a part of this world I don't think you will yeah because I'll let you into a secret I think if you are a good one yeah if you're a good egg yeah the you know it's like magnets all the good eggs stick together there are some bad ones unfortunately in this celebrity world yes but they sort of stick together so it's all right you know so yeah you know it's so true and you can change your algorithms not just online but, but in life. You know how if you like a page, Facebook or Instagram will send you 400 alternative pages just like it. Life is the same. want to be involved in the invitations you want to get or the things you definitely don't want to

get invited life the universe whatever you believe in your your own energy it attracts more of the same and less of what you said I completely agree here's a good one for you dear dear friend of mine which is this is why you know you have dear friends my friend Abby it was her dad's 70th birthday on Saturday and he had a party which was at the local pub. And when I say I could spit to it, that's how close it is. And I felt completely exhausted Saturday to the point of real, real exhaustion. I couldn't do anything. I just had a day where I was so tired and I just messaged saying Abby I've had I'm so so tired I won't be attending this evening send my love to Neville lots of love and there was no angst in sending that I didn't feel anxious about saying no and I just got a lovely voice note back from Abby saying

oh have a wonderful relax we're having a great time. Love you. Talk to you tomorrow. And they're the people you want to surround yourself with that get you, that you're not going to hurt anyone. You're not going because you don't fancy it or you're not going because you're making a decision because you need to do that to help yourself. And I think that's really important. And it's brave to be able to say say I'm not coming because I'm tired. Because we've been taught to come up with far more ridiculous excuses than that.

What can I say to get out of it? Oh, I was going to come, but, you know, a bird fell out the tree and then I had to. And if you can own that and say I am exhausted or I'm in a really weird state of mind. And I often say that and people, some of my friends will say to me, this might be the thing that will get you out of that though, just putting it out there. And then I'll think to myself, is this going to get me out of these weird states of mind that I get into? Or is it going to exhaust me further? And you get to know yourself better, don't you? And so then I make a decision. You're right. I'm going because I'm wallowing here you know what I mean but this

is all coming to an end itself and if I go so yeah it's brilliant to be able to just own that and say I'm tired although I think you're right I could get into it I'm tired all the time and not go anywhere so it's very important actually to go no it's let's get let's get ready and you'll have a really lovely time but I just knew on Saturday it wasn't going to help me and I had a long day Sunday working and you just have to you know what you're doing don't you and as you say you can weigh things up mentally emotionally how you feel and listen to your body I think so important you cannot do it all no we have to be really picky and especially me because you know being on the spectrum um what you call an introverted extrovert or you know somewhere

in between where I do want to go and do bigger things and be in big rooms but then I need a good 24 hours of staring at a wall yeah and you know and just saying one word over and over again and acting a bit weird you know at home where people know how weird I am and I'm a big believer in that's all right we have to let everybody be exactly who they are you know we can't all run at the same speed we can't do it all absolutely absolutely and everybody is different in all of their ways you know and that's what's so wonderful isn't it and about the human race so we're all different it'll be bloody boring if we're all the same I love the quirks of my friends they're my favorite bits of them you know they're my absolute favorite bits

is the little things that only they do or the random thoughts that they have or the random little rituals that people have they're just you're so fond of them aren't you yeah you're so right so right so all your friends from back home family have you experienced at all any jealous you know from from kind of the last five six years have you experienced any over friendships or you know don't worry if you know if that's of the last five, six years, have you experienced any over friendships or, you know, don't worry if, you know, if that's an uncomfortable question, but sometimes when you get successful, you can see a bit of the green-eyed monster.

And I wondered, hopefully you haven't, but, you know, have you noticed anything like that over the years? You know, you've just made me realise in that moment that what you said earlier about what other people think of you is none of your business. I don't actually know of any, which means I've probably been doing really well and not looking for it. When I first began, I was trolled really, really badly by somebody personally who trolled me personally who knew everything about me and who was furious that I was going to be brave enough to say these things about themselves they wanted me to feel ashamed and you know and I did what I always do because you know how people say don't

say anything don't let them don't let them know well I've never been very good at that I have to say it have to get it out and once it's out it's better for me so I went online and I told everybody and I said right I'm not putting up with this by myself anymore it's really getting me down this is what's happening and people in the way that they do they rally and they come but more importantly than that one of my old friends came back into my life through that and he was now in the tech game and he said i'm going to fix this for you and he went through all of my he built me a new website for free was just starting oh he blocked his troll at every turn she started going to like supermarkets to log into their wi-fi because we blocked her ikea dresses and um he just it was it was like playing pac-man you know he was everywhere she went he's getting her and we we

still work together now to this day so he's my if i had a business partner which i don't because i'm not that organized but if i did it would be him because you know we work together and again isn't it amazing out of that negative situation the joy that's brought you back with your friends and I suppose I was going to say that regarding Covid as well because I do feel the world slowed down and out of a very very sad and frightening time creatively came a lot of beautiful things like yourself like charlie mccasey you know there was some beauty that grew within that slowness it was so much wasn't there so much beauty came out of it as well it really really did and i think it's quite a difficult subject to touch upon because of the loss and the anger people felt. But if we can get anything positive out of that time,

it is people like yourself and fantastic podcasts that sprang up at that time and, you know, beautiful illustrators. So, you know, I think that, you know, if we can take anything from it, we've got some magic out of a really bad situation, which is so special. In terms of social media, your social media presence has grown so much. And you were saying to me before, you know, when we were messaging each other, that 10,000 people are joining you to journal at the moment. Can you tell me about that? It's's basically I've got my Facebook page and my Instagram page I'm too old for TikTok I'm sorry if that's age is just a number but I

can't work it out no I do Instagram and Facebook as well that's it can't do TikTok and most of my audience is on Facebook so I'm really in that category of old school but um Instagram's coming but you you know my books are daily page you open randomly every day that's the point but you know i write every day it's helped me so much i want to create something that maybe other people could do it and you never know with these things until you do them if it's going to work how it's going to work you know you it's all in your mind and you're working on it for six months at the wrong time of the year and then it comes out so the journal came out and immediately sort of the day before new year everybody flocked to buy it and joined the groups I've got three groups depending on

how you like to social media and there's 12,000 of us now and journaling every day because there's a daily question yes there is and it's simple question but it's designed over time to do this kind of three almost like a body scan imagine like a body scan throughout the whole year well this is like on your stops and your mindset and your perspective so jumping in there I'm going to say listen to this guys who are listening so I've just opened day 15 for instance in which ways does this world make honesty hard and then there'll be a little space for you to jot something down yeah day 18 have you read any advice recently that has stuck with you so it's really simple isn't it it's not a big task not a big task otherwise it would be pointless you

would buy it you would have the first and then you would think oh you know I saw this I can't I'm too busy but some of the questions are deeper than others and what I'm noticing on the group is every day I post and I post why I've chosen that question and I post what it's working on and then my answer and it's been fascinating to see everybody's, you know, how each person perceives that question, depending on what's going on in their world and how their thinking is. And at the end of this year, when we look back, it's going to be absolutely fascinating because what I've done is over time

repeated a few of the questions to see where you are how you've changed going with this like the self-worth the self-critic a lot of what I do is about imposter syndrome and the way we criticize ourself on the silent daily it's constantly on a loop if you can change that yeah look the power is insane I'm really with you on that actually let's have a chat about that because as much as what other people think of you is none of your business I do sit here sometimes and do this and say oh this is ridiculous it's ridiculous that people want to listen to this yeah you know you go why do people want to listen to this i had to talk to myself about we all do it knowing that you do it yeah it's powerful because we just assume that you're just

such a pro and you're you're in a certain position in society and career wise and therefore why would you worry because you know you're amazing but everybody does i think and i had to talk to myself last night about coming to talk to you this morning I had to do it again this morning and I had to reset it it's a constant resetting and it feels like a lot of work at first and you might think this is too difficult but over time you get muscle memory you know your thoughts start to remember themselves and you start to spot the critical thoughts more quickly and again back to pac-man you know let's zap them yeah yeah all these little ways that you visualize things i think help because if you can zap the critical thoughts

and replace it with a better one that is productive you know it doesn't have to be cheesy or I love myself so much that can be tough but it does have to be how you would speak to a friend yes for real how you would speak to a friend not when you're roasting a friend but you know genuinely and it has to be productive and helpful and kind and the difference if you can change your mindset if you can search for a perspective and whatever is going on that has hope in it and a bit of light in it and it spreads as it ripples out it's amazing the impact when you were growing up and obviously you started writing your poetry and writing your thoughts down like you say which is poetry yeah I agree did you then look at any other poets is there anyone you like I love Wendy Cope yes Jenny Joseph those you know kind of again I feel like their poetry is quite real yeah I think people

would love to know you know what poetry books you like and and what poets you like I love exactly the same as you I also love Harry Baker do you follow Harry no no oh you're gonna love him oh I'll do it now do it in a minute very exciting and Holly McNish I love and I met Holly McNish at one of her readings recently I went along to see it and we were having a great chat about how we both ruined poetry she was like don't worry about the criticisms I ruined poetry long before you came and I said we should get t-shirts hers could say I ruined poetry and mine could say I made it much worse and so that was brilliant because she's just real you know and she's much braver than I am she goes right into all the really you know I'm still a bit weird about going into talking about sex and really graphic things and

you know and she's banging there what an absolute amazing woman she is but I also adore Mary Oliver do you read Mary Oliver I'm looking forward to. You're going to have to message me later with a little list. I love Mary Oliver. Brilliant. Oh, I can't wait. She's no longer with us. Her work is, to me, everything she brings it back to nature. But she's got just a really real way of saying things and then tying in with nature. Because I think that's the saviour for us all if we remember.

You don't like nature you don't enjoy nature you are nature yeah absolutely you're as much as the bees on your picnic you know the stars in the sky yeah so Mary Oliver is she'll transport you oh that's wonderful that really is Kelly Bright's a huge fan and I know that she was very excited I said to her at work the other day you know I'm seeing Donna and she said oh that's so wonderful please send her my love you know all throughout the EastEnders studios you're spoken about and mentioned and we chat about how brilliant you are and you know honestly can you imagine hearing that how that feels that is insane I remember Kelly sending me a voice message. I mean, and first of all, Kelly sending me a voice message is insane and saying, oh, we're all talking about you on the EastEnders set. And I'm just like, oh, my mind's blown. I need to take four hours to process that. And it's just, it's just absolutely brilliant. Well, it's because the stuff you do is so wonderful.

And, you know, again, I think we are very shy on taking compliments and we're not very good at it. Emma and I, actually, my producer, we did an ep and we were talking about it. We're told that we're big-headed and we have an ego and we're really flash if you say, well, actually, thank you. Thank you for really loving what I do. And we should do a lot more of that you know that needs to be celebrated yeah I've got a way of looking at it that when I

hear it like that it's about the words so it's joyous for me because people are using words more in a poetic way and not feeling like weird about it they're sending it in whatsapp groups they're writing it and you know and so when they say to me your work did it at you I hear we're using poetry more we're using words more and it's because of you and so I just think this is great this is great so I think brilliant yeah of course that helps me not overthink it or feel you know pressurized or because then you start going oh if they really knew me they would think you know yeah yeah yeah just say thank you so that's brilliant and it's all positive and it's

working exactly the way you want it your words obviously as we know instagram and kind of little tidbits and it's lovely and i love a motivational quote i always have i really love them i think they perk you up i really like them it's my feed's filled with them and now your your poetry is there and different people how happy are you because I am a lover of a real book I have lots of books I buy lots of books I haven't got bloody time to read them but I have a lot of books in my house and do you just feel so pleased that you've sold so many books that you know you know proper books with paper and hardbacks and softbacks does it bring you joy because it does me I know exactly what you're saying the first time that I

saw it because I self-published my first three because there's no way I would have got a publishing deal not a chance you know you I decided that I had a following. I would make the book for them. They bought it. And actually that very first book is coming out properly next month to the women, which I'm so excited about because it's like a big full circle. But to actually see a book with a, you know, all the ASMR

and this, by the way, this material is called Wibberlin, things you find out when you start. Wibberlin? Wibberlin. Oh, Wibberlin. It's a nice word, isn't it? Wibberlin. Sorry, my Scottish accent makes that sound. It's beautiful. Your accent's gorgeous. I was going to talk to you.

Carry on with the book love first, and then I've got another question. Walking into a bookshop and seeing it in there and you can't even describe the feeling it's exactly what you imagine it would be but seeing people post it in the morning with like I start my day with a cup of tea and a page that is the dream you know people think me Susanna Constantine is always telling me that and she'll send me a picture it's beside her bed it used to be the bible now it's Donna Ashworth things like that you're just like oh it's it's so brilliant and there are downsides to everything that anybody can do in this planet it's not all you know loveliness and joy there's a lot of pain that comes along with writing like this

because you attract a lot of people in pain and therefore you share in that. But what you're knowing is that there's a usefulness to it. Yeah, there's a help. You're not being useless anymore. You feel like maybe I could write that and maybe that'll help somebody. And therefore it's kind of healing for the I used to feel that pain

anyway for the world but now you're sharing it exactly yeah so yeah it is it's brilliant oh it's brilliant you grew up in a tiny little town in Scotland didn't you I'm back here now do you think the location and the beauty of of where you were born and where you grew up has got something to do with the words that you create it's a very good question maybe so I live on the hills they're right here and you know I'm on the back road of the village which means you're the first line for the hills everything I do is around the hills and everywhere we go. When we come back to see the hills, you feel like, you know, the hills are so important. But I lived away for three decades. I lived in Manchester for a long time, Azerbaijan, Spain, my husband's English,

so I've dragged him here. But when lockdown happened and my son got diagnosed with autism and he was having a really really difficult time they said I couldn't come home to Scotland anymore I went right that's it I'm moving because you're not stopping me I used to go home four times a year for sure I knew that once it looked like I might not be able to cross the border I had to cross it for good and I think it's the best thing we've ever done even Even for my kids who are English, because they grew up in England and my husband, they're loving it because it's slow here. It's quiet. You know, it's a small town, but I can get to London. I went to London, like you said,

for that event last week. It's easy to get down. We love London, love to leave London because we know that, you know, sensory overload. I can zone out, you know, in the middle of nowhere for a few days. So I think if you're looking at beautiful things outside your window, that's what makes a huge difference if you struggle with your mindset. I completely agree. You can create that wherever you are. It really is as simple as a few plants, you know, or whatever is available to you to go and visit every day. Being aware of what beauty there is in sometimes places that don't look like the whole beauty. They actually do. You learn to look for it. But I think it really does. My mum used to

say to me, your world has to be beautiful. And she didn't mean nice wallpaper and a great sofa and a nice cat. She meant when you light that little candle and you've got your little battery light sitting there and suddenly the world feels well. It's so wonderful, these little things that we can do to make our little bubble beautiful, because otherwise you would struggle. There's so much disarray and sadness and pain all around us. There's a lot at the moment, isn't there? The world is heavy with the Los Angeles fires and, you know, it's very, very heavy. And I think you're right about comfort and sort of bedding in

and feeding your life. Again, it's the people that you surround yourself with, the food you eat, the music you listen to the books you read and all of these things if you can feed yourself with the right materials your diet is so important your diet of culture art music friendship you can make your world as best as best as it can be and i think that's really difficult but little little steps, little baby steps. I think, you know, everyone could just make it a little bit warmer and a little bit cozier

for themselves, you know. Yeah, it's the tiniest thing and they build up. And, you know, the changes that last are done in tiny increments. Everything that's built properly is built slowly and step by step, you know, methodically. And if you want to be useful to the world or help the world, you know, you can be, but you've got to start within your own little bit as well.

You've got to, you know, like you say, the diet of everything that you give yourself is really, really important. And then you've got energy to give out and you can make a difference. And even if it's just your really well wishes. Yeah, or a compliment. Even a compliment, you know make a difference. And even if it's just your really well wishes. Yeah, or a compliment. Even a compliment, you know, is amazing. It has a huge effect. If you say to someone, you know,

the way you're walking today, you look like a queen, that will stick with someone for the day. It means nothing to you to say it. It takes you five seconds to say it. But, you know, I think the positivity and kindness, if we all do that everyone will be a little bit happier and it seems so simple it is and it's not ignoring the negativity i think a lot of people misunderstand positive people for being

shallow or vapid or you know positive people have been in the darkness they've dragged themselves out of it correct they've learned how to become the light and they're sharing it with you and you know to to assume that positive people somehow are not feeling the same as everybody else it's so wrong because i've never met a positive person that didn't feel pain deeply yeah but they're making a deliberate intention in the world and it and it really works well you are making an intention in this world a beautiful one um i can't wait to see what you do next i i you know i really can't wait i can't wait to start my journal and i am going to i'm really looking forward to starting it i'll send you you know once i get on with it i'll i'll screenshot a couple of pages i'm going to mark it yeah oh send you you know once I get on with it I'll screenshot a couple of pages but thank you so much for joining me I hope 25 is amazing for you I hope we speak again I'd love to

see you I hope I get to hug you at some stage in I love that thank you so much for having me on it's a pleasure and for everybody listening if you haven't heard of Donna's work please follow Donna Ashworth I'm going to put all the info on the blurb wherever you find the podcast I'll put Donna's website and lots of her books and you know you can you can have a look and really have a deep delve into it because it will make you feel so much better and she's a lovely wonderful talent to discover so i hope you get fully involved and donna thank you so so much thank you thanks nat bye hi this is chris mccausland and this is diane boswell and we've got a new podcast, haven't we, Di? We do. What's it called? Winning.

Isn't. Everything. Every week, me and Diane, we're going to be having a little catch up on the back of Strictly, aren't we, Di? We are. I've missed you, Chris. I've missed you too. We're going to talk some nonsense, so why not tune in? Available everywhere you get your podcasts.