Life.Church with Craig Groeschel - Bonus Episode: Pastor Craig on The Benefit of Doubt | Intimidated by Your Doubt? | Part 1

Starting point is 00:00:00 Welcome to a bonus episode of the Life Church podcast. Today, you'll hear an interview with Pastor Craig Groschelle about his newest book, The Benefit of Doubt. This conversation is part one of a four-part series on Doubt from the You've Heard It Said podcast. You can subscribe to You've Heard It Said wherever you listen to podcasts or watch full video episodes on the Life Church YouTube channel. Whether you're listening by yourself or part of a group, we hope you'll download the conversation guide and talk about it with your friends, family, or life group. You can find it all by going to www.w.com.com. slash y-h-h-is. Now, on to the show.

Starting point is 00:00:37 Well, welcome to the You've Heard It Said podcast. This is Ali. And I'm Jason. And this past weekend, Pastor Craig started a new message series based on his latest book, The Benefit of Doubt. I'm really excited for people to get to talk about it. Yeah. I've actually been really looking forward to this series just for myself personally. Because doubts and really just working out my faith.

Starting point is 00:00:58 and trying to figure out which parts do I want to keep and kind of trying to understand what do I believe has been very central to like my personal experience the last few years. And so I just want to say to anybody who's in a life group or our life church family, maybe you just randomly found this video on YouTube, anybody, the thoughts that you're having,

Starting point is 00:01:19 the questions you're having, even the doubts you're having about faith, they're okay. And they're not just okay. They might be really good. And that's what this whole series is going to be about, is helping you to ask those questions to experience those doubts. Yeah, I love that you shared that because we always talk about how our church is a place to come as you are.

Starting point is 00:01:40 And it also means you can come with the questions you have. And so keep asking those questions. And so in the spirit of questions, I thought we could start by sharing some of our big questions we've had. They don't have to be earth-shattering or like the biggest doubts you've ever had. We know there are groups. Maybe it's your first week together. So, you know, we'll save that for you for later. but I wonder if you could share some of your questions.

Starting point is 00:02:01 Yeah, well, I actually looked at the notes ahead of time for this conversation, and it said that about not our biggest questions or whatever, but I don't follow rules. Right, clearly. Okay, I should have known. And so I'm just going to go there. In the last couple of years, I've questioned the whole thing. Like, there's not one part of my theology or belief system or understanding of God that I have not said, what about this? Do I believe this? Like, what about this?

Starting point is 00:02:29 Do I believe this? And I didn't want that to happen. It actually scared me a lot. I really tried for a long time to make it not happen, but it did. And so if someone is watching, they're like, oh, I don't have small questions. I've got big ones. That's okay. This is for you too.

Starting point is 00:02:48 And so, yeah, I just want to share that up front. But you don't have to do that. That's right. What about you? What are some questions you've had? I mean, I don't feel like there are anything that's novel. Like I feel like a lot of people have probably had the question of why would a good God allow suffering, especially when you're going through something really hard. And then kind of a more specific one recently is, you know, there's that whole passage in scripture where it talks about like if your son asks for a fish, are you going to give him a stone.

Starting point is 00:03:12 Like if you, who are sinful, know how to give good gifts to your kids, how much more will your father give you? But then sometimes it feels like you're asking for a fish and you get a stone. Yeah, I've got a rock collection. Right. Like I've got quite a collection. I'm like, what's up with that? So that's probably a big one. I've had recently. Yeah, thank you for sharing that. And I think, like, that's, that's a question that a lot of us have. I think everyone at some point in their life will have. And so over the next four episodes, this is what we're going to do. We're going to hear from people. They're real stories. They're real doubts. You actually get to talk to Pastor Craig twice, which you'll hear from him today soon. And so I just hope that everyone, whether your questions feel big or small, that you'll come along with us and ask your questions. So we're going to hear from Pastor Craig right now.

Starting point is 00:03:57 I'm really excited for you to get to hear what he's shared. Well, Pastor Craig, thank you so much for joining us on the You've heard It Said podcast. Hey, happy to be with you, Alley. Thanks for doing it. Of course. Well, we are so excited. The series that we're in and the book that you've written, the benefit of doubt, I can't wait for our life groups to talk about it because doubt is one of those things

Starting point is 00:04:15 that is really hard to talk about. Right. But many of us struggle with it. Yeah, for all. And so as our pastor, when you're having conversations with people who are doubting, what are some of the mindsets around it that are healthy and helpful for us to have? And what are some of those that maybe we need to reframe or just get rid of? Yeah.

Starting point is 00:04:33 So that's a good question. I think, Ali, so often, like as Christians, if we have a doubt, we often feel guilty about it. Maybe we feel ashamed. And then, you know, often don't process it. And that's not healthy at all. I think one of the really important things that we can do is to kind of destigmatize doubt in the church and help people know that doubt is not an enemy of faith. Doubts actually can be a contributor to a growing and a stronger faith.

Starting point is 00:05:08 And so if we can just kind of help people have permission to doubt well, to doubt by leaning into God instead of by doubting and running away from God, I think that we can make a lot of progress and help people see doubt as not something to be afraid of, not something to deny, but even something to embrace and God can handle our doubts, right? So I'm really thankful. I think our church does generally a good job of not trying to have a perfect faith and not shaming people for struggling, but instead embracing them. And so I'm really thankful for that.

Starting point is 00:05:44 Yeah, we modeled that well, so thank you for that. Yeah, thank you. So I like that you shared that because script, doesn't pull any punches around doubt. There are people who experience it. So who are some of your favorite examples in scripture of people who doubted? And what can we learn from them? Well, you know, you read the Psalms and there's a lot of like God, where are you?

Starting point is 00:06:03 When are you going to answer my prayer? And then I think two of the most obvious that I relate to so much. One is Habakkuk. And he's got God, this isn't fair. Where are you? Why are you allowing this to happen? And the thing I love about Habakkuk is his name, it actually, means it sounds like it's a contradictory term, but they're the same. It means to wrestle and to

Starting point is 00:06:27 embrace. That's literally what it means. And so the whole time he's wrestling with God, like God, this isn't fair. Where are you? Why are the wicked prospering? Why is this going on? And he's embracing God. He's not letting go. And so you see this kind of this dual tension of I don't understand, but I'm seeking to understand. I don't like it, but I'm trying to trust you. So that's a great picture. And then in the New Testament, Thomas, it's interesting. Thomas is always kind of painted as a guy that, you know, doubting Thomas, right? And almost like he did something really wrong. But when you see the way Jesus treated him, Jesus treated him with grace.

Starting point is 00:07:03 And Jesus met Thomas in his doubt. And it was really special. You know, Thomas said, I'm not going to believe unless this. I got to see the nail marks. I've got to touch you. And Jesus loved Thomas. He didn't shame him, but he gave Thomas exactly what he needed. In other words, and that's special.

Starting point is 00:07:21 So, you know, I always try to tell somebody, if I'm talking to my kids or talking to a friend, if you're doubting, take your doubts to God. He'll love you through your doubts and he'll, you know, you can wrestle and you can embrace. And he'll often give you what you need to continue to grow in your faith. I love that you brought up Thomas because he does get a bad rap. But I'm like, Thomas was just honest. Aren't you glad like you have a Thomas when you have a question? And Thomas wasn't there.

Starting point is 00:07:48 Thomas didn't see it. He's like, I just, I just want to, I want to see it. And that's, that's not wrong. Right. You know, there's like, if I'm going to follow Jesus, I want to know he is a risen son of God. And so, show me, reveal yourself to me. And so I like Thomas. I like Thomas's honesty. And I like Jesus, the way he loved and still honored Thomas, didn't shame him. And so that gives us a good model to say we can be honest before God and we know that Hamidus was grace. Yeah. I love that honesty you talked about. And that's one of my favorite. things about the book and about the series is that you are really giving us the gift of going second because you're talking about the hard thing. And so I wondered if you could tell us about some times in your life where you've experienced some doubt and how God met you in those seasons. So do you want like big one from a few years ago or more recent? What was like bigger? More recent. Yeah. Yeah. So I hate to say this out loud. But like sometimes to this day,

Starting point is 00:08:48 I believe with all my heart, Allie, that God hears our prayers. I believe that God is good. I believe that he's all powerful. I believe that all things are possible with God. I believe God can raise the debt he has. I believe that he can open blind eyes. I believe he can heal cancer. I believe that he can save the most broken people.

Starting point is 00:09:07 But sometimes I feel like my prayers aren't that effective. And so, like, there have been times when I've prayed and prayed for healing. and that's especially healing. And I can tell you and show you dozens of people in the church that shock the doctors. Like there's no other explanation, but this is a miracle. And so we've seen the miraculous power of God heal. But it seems like when I pray for people a lot of times, they don't get better. And so I kind of joke about it.

Starting point is 00:09:41 It's not always a joke. Like when Amy and I go to pray with someone, sometimes I'm kind of like almost serious, like, why don't you pray? Because I think you might have a little more faith for it. And so it's not that I don't have faith for God to heal. I do. And I don't doubt the power of prayer. But sometimes, and it's hard to say as a pastor, I don't want to devastate people, but sometimes I doubt that mind is going to be as effective as someone else in that category. And other categories, I have no doubts about prayer. Like when I'm praying for salvation, when I'm praying for God to use a message, when I'm praying for God to give some type of breakthrough, I have no doubt when it comes to healing. because I've seen him do it and because I've seen him not do it,

Starting point is 00:10:18 sometimes I have doubts that he won't do it from my prayers. Yeah, I mean, I can relate. I felt that way before too. So how do you deal with that? Like when you need to pray for healing, how do you keep praying when it feels like nothing's happening? So it's pretty special. Amy and I do a lot of walks.

Starting point is 00:10:35 And we kind of, we talk like real, what I call like intimate marriage theology on our walks, where we just talk openly about that. And so we had one walk, it was a really long walk where almost the whole topic was that. And I just, I told her, like I said, I feel like I'm in a prayer slump. Kind of like, I know I'll get through this. I know I'm going to see God work, but I'm not. And so it was just really special to be with someone that I trust and love that didn't judge me, didn't point back, didn't preach at me.

Starting point is 00:11:05 But kind of said, I can see why you feel that way. And I felt that way before. And then it was, it was kind of in the dialogue where I started kind of talking, faith to myself. And, you know, we started telling stories about when we have seen God healing. And I'm talking about crazy miracle healings. And so we started telling those stories. And they started to rebuild my faith. And we started to talk through the scriptures. And so it wasn't through a sermon. It wasn't through someone throwing Bible verses at me. It wasn't through someone talking down like, you should be ashamed of yourself, pastor, Craig. You know, it was just through

Starting point is 00:11:38 honest dialogue that we felt the presence of God. And it kind of felt like he was leading our conversation back to faith. And what I preached about Amy is that she asked questions. She didn't try to solve the problem. She's listened. And then through it, we kind of both talked ourselves into believing more so for faith. And so we've re-engaged, and I've been praying really faithfully with more faith today for healing for a couple of people in our lives. And just, I know God can, I believe you will. And I believe you will. And if he does, and I still believe. That's so good.

Starting point is 00:12:14 I love that that relationship is what really helped you keep going back to God. And so when our life groups are listening, there's probably people who are nervous to share how they're doubting. Because it feels like such a scary thing of what if I get judged? It does. So for anyone listening who's maybe experiencing those doubts and they're too scared to share, what encouragement would you give them? Read the Psalms. You can see that people that are really close to God experience those same things. And, you know, hopefully we have life groups.

Starting point is 00:12:45 And I would say the vast majority of our groups are going to meet you with faith. And what you're going to find, let's say you're in a group with eight people or something, and if you're going through some kind of faith doubt, what's interesting is they're kind of like what I call almost like different types of doubt. You might doubt the goodness of God. You might doubt the power of God. You might doubt the presence of God. You might doubt, you know, the word of God at some point or whatever it is. And I can almost guarantee in any small group, for the most part, whatever you've doubted,

Starting point is 00:13:17 there's probably someone else there that has as well. And there's sometimes if you go first, others will follow. And it's just, it's a place to be, it's a place for healing. It's a place for strength. It's a place that we don't have to be perfect. And that's just, that's the beauty of the body of Christ. And what's great is if you're struggling in one area, then they can be a voice of hope and healing to you. And then in a whole other area, there's someone else who's going through something

Starting point is 00:13:42 that you actually can help be a part of their answer. So don't be afraid. Here's what I'd say is everyone is giving a life root meaning. You're listening to somebody. You're praying for somebody. You're encouraging somebody. You're visiting somebody. Don't be afraid to be the one that receives. That's a part of it. You're actually blessing others by letting them minister to you. That's a, You will not be a great part of a Christian, Jesus community if you're not receiving as well as giving. Don't be afraid to receive. Don't be afraid to hurt. Let them love you. That's stepping on my toes a little bit. I think about the carry each other's burdens. I'm like, I'm great with caring. Your burden. And I would say, especially to our introverts, right? It's like the extroverts, they never think they just speak right. The introverts, a lot of times don't share. It's harder for them to share the burdens. And it's more. meaningful when they do because they often don't. And I'm always, I'm always blessed when someone gives me the opportunity to minister to them. And it honestly is hard for me to receive

Starting point is 00:14:49 ministry. Not just because I'm a pastor, but because I'm, you know, I want to be self-reliant, blah, blah, blah. I don't want to be embarrassed and I don't want to be weak. And so it is, it's a gift to others to let them minister to you. You have to receive. Don't be afraid to receive. Man, that's so good. And you shared earlier with some of the helpful things that Amy did for you. So as other people in our groups are opening up, what can we do, whether it's someone in our life group, maybe a kid who's having a lot of faith doubts, what can we do to be a safe place for people to process and to help them? That's a great question. So what I would say is this, that in any avenue, when someone's hurting, that most of us want to be fixtures, right? So if you say, you know, here's what I'm going through,

Starting point is 00:15:35 generally, I want to say, well, I can help by, or the Bible says this, or don't you remember, or you said this a long time ago, you know, that kind of thing. And so I work really, I try to work hard and remind myself, you know, listen, don't act, just listen. And so in a really effective ministry conversation, one of the best things we can do is just to give people a safe place to talk. And so when they tell you something, if you felt anything close to it, you can say something like, you know, I understand how you can feel that way or I can understand why you would doubt. I've had doubts like that. Tell me more. And so tell me more. And so, you know, and what other questions are you asking? And how is this impacting your faith? And how do you feel when you say that?

Starting point is 00:16:19 And so we're just ask, you know, typically what I try to do is, I mean, I so much want to come back with an answer, a solution all the time. And so whenever I'm doing this, I will tell myself three more questions. And so when they open up, I'll say, okay, here's one question. And then I want to fix it. I want to say something. And then here's another question. And here's a third. And so what I'm really doing, both, I'm giving them the gift of just space to be honest, to be vulnerable, without any judgment. And then I'm also getting more information to where I'm understanding it more clearly. And if I'm truly listening, I'm feeling more empathetic. And so now I'm not at a position of, you know, here I am to help you, but I'm going to actually, yeah, that doesn't really suck.

Starting point is 00:17:05 And I'm super sorry you feel that way. And so you really want to let them talk. And then as much as you can, you want to be in it with them. Like I can understand why you're going through this. And I've been there. And that's really hard, isn't it? And then just don't solve it for a minute to sit in it. And then depends on the situation. Sometimes you would ask if there were some things that might help, would you want to talk about it? So it's like I'm not even given advice before they're ready. Or, you know, would you want to get together tomorrow and talk about this more? And so you just don't want to go too hard, too fast. You want to be really sensitive to what the spirit prompts you to do. And the spirit may prompt you to pray in the moment or the spirit may prompt you to pray later on without them.

Starting point is 00:17:49 but you just want to be, it's not about you being right. It's not about you helping them the way you want to help them. It's about you really caring, empathizing, listening, understanding, being in it with them. And then with wisdom, with patience, with prompting the Spirit of God, then you come in to offer help at the right time and the right way. And in five different conversations, if there's not five different approaches, you probably didn't do it as well as you could. have. That's good. Man, that's such good reminders for us. And so in the book, I really love how you talk about how these doubts and these conversations around them can strengthen our faith. So when you

Starting point is 00:18:31 think about our life groups and our church, hearing this together, having these conversations, what do you hope is different about us as a result of talking about doubt? So it's crazy that sometimes talking about the hard things just makes it better. And so, you're just, and so, I think that just giving people permission to talk about, I have doubted, I am doubting. I mean, even right now, just talking to you right now about my doubts and sometimes the power of prayer, for whatever reason, it just makes me want to pray a little more faithfully. Because we're just, we're talking about it. And it doesn't make me not want to pray. It just makes me want to, I do want to believe in the power of God.

Starting point is 00:19:10 And he does hear the cries of my heart. And so I think it's just growing up, I had a lot of doubt. and I felt like there was no safe place to talk about them. That's hard. In our communities, in our small group, in our life groups, if we can be that, it is a gift. And what you're going to find on the other side of it, every person that has a really close, intimate relationship with Jesus had some, had worked through some doubts, worked through some obstacles, had some theological questions.

Starting point is 00:19:41 And so doubts, that's just one kind of speed bump in your growing faith. There's going to be other ones. those are a part of it. And you see God's faithfulness through it. And so don't be afraid of it, step into it, embrace it. And I think if we can realize God understands, he is not mad, he's not disappointed. I mean, his son, Jesus on the cross, is why have you forsaken me? That's, you know, I don't know, is that doubt?

Starting point is 00:20:08 What is it? It's a question. He didn't understand, right? Yeah. Jesus, like, why? Where are you? I thought you're going to be here. And one could argue that feels like, that's a question.

Starting point is 00:20:18 We know us a question, and God wasn't mad at him. And Jesus asked the question of his father. I thought we were going to be together forever, and you had to pull back on me. He didn't get it in the moment or whatever. So to me, there's beauty in that. There's intimacy. There's strength. There's honesty.

Starting point is 00:20:34 And that's something I believe honors God. Hypocrisy, if there's anything that God hates, it's fake. It's hypocrisy. Be real, be honest. God will meet you there. And a loving community together, you can actually all heal. That's incredible. Well, thank you for setting the stage for our life groups to have these conversations together. I know they're going to have a great time. And so thank you for making the time today.

Starting point is 00:20:57 Of course. And thank you for being our pastor. And I'll say thank you to everyone that opens up a home or meets in a restaurant or does coffee and to everyone that does join a life group. It takes a step of faith to open up to people that you may not know well. But before long, we all know like how in the world did I do life without these people? It's special. And I celebrate every single. leader, every single person that comes and brings their best to both give and to receive because that's what the body price is about. So it's always great when we get to have Pastor Craig on the podcast. And both of you just really did such a good job of giving us things to talk about. I'm thinking like, okay, like this is going to help me now with my faith, but also talking with my kids and my family. I'm just curious to hear from you, Allie, like personally, what were some things that are

Starting point is 00:21:47 kind of still sticking around that you're thinking about and processing. Yeah. So there were so many good things that he shared. And every time I get to talk with Pastor Craig, I always kind of, you know, I prepare. And I think about what we'll talk about. And then he always surprises me by sharing something that I really needed to hear. I'm like, oh, okay, Holy Spirit. Thank you for that one. And so for me, that was when he started sharing about being willing to receive because the whole like carry each other's burdens, I love carrying a good burden. You want to give me a burden? I will carry that for you. but I don't want to share my burden with you. And so when he talked about how that's actually what helps people feel comfortable to share

Starting point is 00:22:22 and receiving actually helps build the faith of other people around you, that really convicted me of, oh, by me not being willing to share the questions I have or go first, I may be preventing someone else from sharing. And so that just really helped me reframe. What's it out to you? Well, just to like add to that, but also it's part of my thing is like if part of that is that is that we need to need Jesus. And if we can't need others,

Starting point is 00:22:50 then we're not going to do very well at needing Jesus. And so that's kind of what stood out for me is he talks about Thomas, who often gets called doubting Thomas, which I think is not very nice. It's not kind. Thomas is brave. Maybe we shouldn't add that to his name. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:23:07 And so I'll share a quick little story. One time, you know, I mentioned earlier that I've kind of questioned everything to my faith. and one day I was driving to work, which happens to be here at a church, you know. And I was working out some questions. And I thought, you know, people probably think I'm kind of like doubting Thomas. And then my thought turned into a prayer. And I said to Jesus, people might think I'm doubting Thomas, but I'm actually doubting you. I was like, whoa, that just got real.

Starting point is 00:23:39 Oh, man. And here's what I like about that. is in a moment of my most significant doubt, who did I talk to about it? Jesus. And that's what Thomas did. And so he's like, I don't know if this Jesus who died is the same Jesus who's here with me now, which isn't that kind of the question we have. And so he wants to experience Jesus's pain.

Starting point is 00:24:07 He wants to experience his wounds and see them and touch them. And then what does Jesus do? Like we have it in scripture. Yeah. Jesus is there in the room with the disciples. This is in John 20, 27, and it says, then he said to Thomas, so Jesus thinks to turn to Thomas. He says to Thomas, put your finger here, look at my hands, put your hand into the wounds in my side. Don't be faithless any longer, believe. And then Thomas kind of just exclaims, my Lord, my God. And I think that, like, that's just a good thing for us to remember is if we are Jesus followers, you know, people might be watching who

Starting point is 00:24:49 you're just, you're searching, you're seeking, you're considering. But anyone who like, yeah, you've decided, yes, I'm a Jesus follower, you're following someone who has invited you to experience his pain with him, who's invited you to come into the most difficult place with him and touch him there. And you, so like asking a really difficult, big, scary, question, it's not really difficult and big and scary for God for Jesus. You can ask these questions. So that's what stood out to me. I love that. And I think it's tempting when you read scripture like that to sometimes put our own spin on it or to think he's saying like, Thomas, get it together, dude. Like believe, don't be faithless any longer. But it's like, that's not how Jesus is. That's not his

Starting point is 00:25:33 character. He's kind. And so he probably asked that as like, hey, it's okay. I'm glad that you're asking. I'm here. And I'm going to give you what you need so that you can keep following me. He's saying here, believe. Believe. Believe. Yeah. Yeah. So I think for all of us, that's just good permission that when other people share with us, we can also have that same posture of like what Pastor Craig shared, have asked three more questions, ask them to tell you more. So a question you can ask in your life groups this week is what does doubt mean to me and how can I share it with others. Hi friend. Thanks for listening today. Be sure to check out the show notes wherever you're listening to find a conversation guide to help you talk about what you heard with your life group,

Starting point is 00:26:12 and family. Have a great week.

Life.Church with Craig Groeschel - Bonus Episode: Pastor Craig on The Benefit of Doubt | Intimidated by Your Doubt? | Part 1

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