Limitless: An AI Podcast - Apple v. OpenAI: Trade Secrets and Corporate Espionage

Episode Date: July 14, 2026

Apple has filed a lawsuit against OpenAI over alleged trade secret theft related to future hardware plans and employee recruiting. With OpenAI’s reported device ambitions and Apple’s leak-detection practices, the broader competition for talent and proprietary information in AI has reached a boiling point.------🌌 LIMITLESS HQ ⬇️EMAIL US:           [e-mail]:    https://limitlessft.substack.com/FOLLOW ON X:   https://x.com/LimitlessFTSPOTIFY:             https://open.spotify.com/show/5oV29YUL8AzzwXkxEXlRMQAPPLE:                 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/limitless-podcast/id1813210890RSS FEED:           https://limitlessft.substack.com/------TIMESTAMPS0:00 OpenAI’s Secret Apple Grab4:16 Poaching Engineers and Secrets6:35 The Alleged Interview Scheme9:06 Why Apple Fought Back11:40 OpenAI Versus Apple Strategy13:49 Apple’s Leak-Tracking Tactics15:33 AI Hardware Meets Personal Data17:34 Apple’s Own Security Problem19:59 Why IP Is the New Gold22:26 California’s Non-Compete Advantage23:08 Is Apple Truly Worried?24:57 Apple’s AI Comeback Plan26:37 Waiting for the Device Reveal27:26 The Show Goes Independent------RESOURCESJosh: https://x.com/JoshKaleEjaaz: https://x.com/cryptopunk7213------Not financial or tax advice. See our investment disclosures here:https://www.bankless.com/disclosures⁠Josh works with Anthropic as a contractor. All views expressed are his own and do not represent Anthropic, its leadership, or its affiliates. Nothing in this episode is investment advice.

Did Open AI just steal the most critical secret hardware supply chain magic that Apple has been working on for the last couple of decades? The answer is probably yes. And it came in the form of this leaked text message saying, LOL, I found out I can access the network storage so funny from an Apple engineer who went over to OpenAI. Now, this Apple engineer, his name is Chang Liu, and he had a company MacBook that he kept after he left. And he found later on there was an authentication bug that left his access alive, even while he was at Open AI. So he took this stolen laptop and downloaded over a thousand pages of confidential material covering a ton of unreleased products, engineering presentations, and technical specs on unreleased Apple hardware products. Now,

who's the best hardware product maker in the world for consumers? It's Apple. And now OpenAI has this treasure trove of information that they have been using to build, allegedly, been using to build their new hardware device that we're tremendously excited about. So there is a lot of of chaos going on in the story. But right now, the story is Apple is suing Open AI, and they have a lot of ammo to back this thing up. And all of this comes off the back of Open AI releasing GPT 5.6 this week,

so they had so many ups and so many downs. But yeah, Friday, 10th of July, they got slapped with a lawsuit from none other than Apple, claiming that they've stolen a bunch of trade secrets, specifically around how they build the future AI hardware devices. And as we know, open air has been working on quite a few of these devices, rumored to be going online around February 2027. They acquired Johnny Ives' startup I.O. Johnny Ive famously, one of the chief product designers at Apple for around $6.5 billion.

So it's a big deal for Apple to make this claim. Now, imagine you are interviewing for a new job at Open AI. Before going into your interview, they ask you to bring a piece of hardware from your current company, that being Apple, to show and tell during your interview, to show how the circuitry design works, to show, how the engineering design completely works in your interview itself. That's exactly what a 24-year veteran from Apple, ex-veteran, VP of design. He designed the iPhone. He designed the Iwatch called Tang Yu did at Apple. He is officially Open AI's chief hardware design officer, and he's responsible for launching their future AI devices. There's another guy that you mentioned earlier, Josh,

called Chang Liu. He's an eight-year electrical engineer from Apple who also left and happened to have a laptop which still had access to Apple's file system. So he stole a bunch of blueprints. This basically reads like some kind of dramatic movie. I'm kind of, I've got social network playing in my head, like from the meta kind of vibes. But this is a crazy lawsuit, if true, and if it does end up getting taken to the end of this case where there's a judgment placed on Open AI, this could defer the launch of their AI hardware devices by as much as a year. It's pretty serious. And if you scroll down just a tiny bit, we'll see the three people, named, or I should say the two people that you just mentioned and one missing name. Now, we have

Tang, we have Chang, which sounds like a joke that these are the two people at the core of this lawsuit, but there is a third person who is notably not names. And it's Johnny Ive and his company love from, or I guess specifically I.O. here, who already had a lawsuit filed against them for totally different reasons. So if you remember this image on screen when they made their big announcement that Open AI was acquiring Johnny Ives company I.O. for I think it was like four. or five billion dollars. They made this really nice announcement video. They published this blog post about it. And then immediately within the week, they got sued by another company named I.O. And now they have to actually change their name. So that's a totally separate lawsuit.

But notably, Johnny is not named at all in this Apple lawsuit. And you have to ask the question, why? Well, I think one of those is, like, could you imagine Apple suing Johnny? That would be the most diabolical headline ever. But perhaps the reality is that they actually didn't have a whole lot to do with this and that a lot of the kind of ownership of this problem comes directly from the Open AI team and these two people, because from the sounds of it, the Open AI team was very much aware of what was going on. In fact, they were building and actively poaching up to 400 people from Apple's design, engineering, and their production teams to help them build this new AI hardware infrastructure system. It's important to note that California, where all these companies reside,

don't actually have a non-compete law. So technically, you can leave one company on one day and join a competitor immediately the next day, and there's no like non-compete laws that can be enforced. So all of that is legal. What is potentially illegal is what these employees exactly did. So I want to spend a moment kind of describing exactly what these executives did, which is what has got open an eye into such hot water. So let's start with the 24-year Apple veteran. He was the VP of design. So he was responsible, heavily is responsible for designing what the iPhone looked like, how it worked, and he did the same for the Iwatch as well. He's now opening his chief hardware officer. He has assumed that role since January of this year, so it's a pretty short term.

And what he's reportedly done is before leaving Apple, he emailed himself a list of the suppliers that Apple has for their entire supply chain so that he knew who to reach out to, contacts and friendlies that he's made at those supplying companies so that he could replicate basically the same thing at OpenAI. Another thing he did is he reached out to a bunch of Apple employees immediately after he assumed the new role and gave them the guide as to how to evade Apple's restrictive policies around talking to competitors. Number three, he asked them to come to interviews and as I mentioned earlier bring a piece of hardware that they're designing to prove that, number one, they're working on Apple hardware, and two, to show them, you know, some of the

secrets as to how to do this. And then number three, he basically, like, outlined the entire policy at Open AI as to why they could just kind of leave and join Open AI. So the idea is he allegedly made this incredibly obvious that he's trying to poach these specific types of hardware engineers. And I don't think that's just good practice in general. And Apple's just coming for blood. The second guy, Chang Liu, he kind of accidentally fell into this file case, if accidental is kind of like a term I'm using kind of generously here. He was an electrical engineer. He stole a laptop that was technically Apple's property. He didn't return it. And when he opened it on his first day at OpenAI, he realized that he still had access to the

filing system and even the chat system at Apple. So he basically reached out and stole a bunch of files that were incredibly proprietary. And that's who Apple's going after. Yeah, the allegations list is pretty long. You mentioned a couple here about the things that he was doing, But then there's another one, which is the homework pattern, they call it. And in one instance, an Apple employee screenshot it and downloaded files about this highly confidential project prior to the interview with Tan. And then he asked about the project in the interview. And Apple saw this and they're like, wait, this is like an established pattern is what they

call it, where candidates study confidential material before the interviews, like it was an exam prep because Tan was so familiar with the internal workings at Apple. he already knew all of the insider projects, the things that weren't released, but he didn't know all of it. So what he did is he had these people come for interviews. And he said, hey, I know you're working on this project. Tell me all about it. Explain it to me. And if you explain it well, you'll get a job here. And the reality is that they were just filling in the blanks on the places that he wasn't either up to date on or he didn't fully know. And this was this way of allegedly, at least, this way of kind of filling the gaps in his knowledge base to fully understand what's going on at Apple so that they could emulate it

then inside of Open AI. A similar thing happened where he told people how they could offboard themselves in a way that was discrete and it could get them the most information out of Apple. He encouraged them to not say who the new employer was, allowing them to get two additional weeks of access to the servers to continue to collect information and share it with their new employer and kind of reverse engineering the exit process at Apple to optimize it for a linked information going to Open AI. These allegations are pretty insane. This is like a lot of proprietary data. And when you're thinking about companies who you would want to steal trade secrets from, I don't think there's one better in the world than Apple who has created exactly what Open AI has

been trying to make. And they've done it at a larger scale than just about anyone else. So this is like a huge amount of allegations that if found guilty, you have to imagine, it's going to cause. some serious problems for their hardware team over there at Open AI. It also just seems so sloppy from these two executives at Open AI. The whole thing is a mess, yeah. Like, asking someone to literally email their personal accounts is like so obviously out of practice when you're at a company that has confidential information. Like, I don't know why you would even try to do that, but obviously they thought they had

some kind of advantage. But I don't think they made any kind of attempt to kind of keep it discreet. I mean, 400 employees from Apple have now moved over to Open AI. Predominantly, the most of them are working on the hardware thing specifically. Which brings me to the question, why is Apple going out of their way to file a lawsuit to what is relatively basically just still a startup? They don't have the cash balance. They don't have the profit margins that Apple has. Why are they worried about this startup, Open AI?

It brings me to think that they know Open AI has built something. quite effective. Now, the rumor mill basically says that open air has been working on some kind of a screenless device, maybe a series of different devices that can sit unanimously on your desk and listen to everything you say, that can see things that you see, potentially maybe even in earbuds with a camera. Now, if that sounds familiar, that's because a lot of the leaks from Apple themselves is that they're releasing a suite of devices that are going to look and sound very similar to that. And so I'm kind of piecing the puzzle pieces together in my head right now, and I'm realizing, oh, maybe they did blatantly just copy the designs that Apple had, and they're

trying to beat them to the punch. Now, Apple's timeline is they're supposedly meant to announce three new devices, a bunch of AirPods that have cameras on it, some kind of necklace-pendant device that can either sit in your pocket or sit around your neck, as well as a pair of smart glasses that can see everything you see. They're looking to announce it by, at the end of the year, which I think is around the time that Open AI is planning to do theirs, but Open AI is planning to launch theirs officially, so start distributing them by February of 27, and they're aiming, according to Sam, for 100 million units. So it got me thinking, this is probably one of the better marketing schemes for Open Air, even though it comes in the form

of a lawsuit. It's just interesting to see. In the case, it doesn't completely derail their hardware efforts, which, according to Mark Gurman, I was reading his tweets earlier, he has like the guy when it comes to Apple leaks, he's saying in the immediate aftermath of the lawsuit, opening I still believes that it's on track to release their first product early in 2027. That's the February release date, which is on track, again, with the kind of end of year announcement that we're planning to get in terms of what the product's going to look like, hopefully how much is going to cost, kind of showing the usability of it. He says the problem most likely is that they will now have issues with their suite of products

and any sort of iPhone competing device because of a lawsuit like this, depending on how it goes. So the hope is that we still get that Open AI device version one, but the second version of that, the third version, the family of devices might find some complexities if it's found out that this is true and that Open AI really is guilty in a lot of these things. And I have to think about Apple of today versus the Apple of maybe 15 years ago and how different they've handled these situations because this has been going on for a while now, right? It's like this has been happening since February they found out about it, which is funny because there was a lot of people who went to WWDC and we're talking to the Apple executives about the

OpenAI partnership. And it wasn't really very warm the way they were talking about it, but nobody knew why. And it's because they were aware of what was going on in the background. But they didn't actually do anything until so much later. And if you remember, there's that current partnership with OpenAI and Apple where Siri is serving a lot of queries to chat GPT directly, which is crazy because, I mean, we have this leaked email on screen from Steve Jobs back from 2005, where they had a similar thing happen, where Adobe started to hire a few engineers from Apple. And this was a big no-go for Steve,

because nobody tries to poach engineers from anybody's companies. They have to earn them through merit. And he says, Adobe is recruiting from Apple. They have hired one person already and are calling lots more. And this was only one person. He said, I have a standing policy with our recruiters that we don't recruit from Adobe. It seems you have a different policy. One of us must change our policy. please let us know who. That was one employee. Could you imagine 400 employees with trade secrets going to another company and what that would have looked like? Open AI would have been, that contract would have been ripped apart the next day. iPhones would not have been serving any queries and they would have been in an all-out war, probably in the public, within 24 hours.

This has been going on for, what, close to six months now. And this is the difference in Apple. It's like Tim Cook is very much the peacetime CEO. He was great at building a business, great at building revenue. Not much of a jerk. Apple hasn't really had a job. jerk in charge in a long time. And that's what I'm hopeful that John Turnus can start to do. Hopefully he is kind of maybe the one pushing this. We know John Turner's is very much in the hardware industry. He would be very close to this. In fact, he worked very close with, I think it was tan in terms of the guy actually wanting to take John Turner's job as that lead of hardware. He didn't get it. John Turner's wound up being CEO, but he's very deeply involved and he

understands this. And I have to imagine that's probably where the lawsuit came from. Is turn us kind of stepping into a CEO role and saying, no, I'm not going to stand for this. And if you're wondering the measures or the extends that Apple goes to to try and catch you leaking their information, we have a list over here. So the tweet goes, they include invisible watermarks in documents and files, subtle color changes for one pixel in an image. So they'll know if it's used specifically that shared a specific artifact externally outside of the company. So you can imagine that it ranges, it's individual for a particular employee. typeface, one letter in a memo italicized or different font size. File names, slightly different identifiers for a file. Basically, they run through this entire list to make sure that they can not only

know when someone's leaked information, but catch the specific individual responsible. And I wonder if they made this same assessment when they figured out that Tang Yu and Chang Liu were the ones that leaked all of this information. Now, it's interesting the point that you made around, you know, John Turner is assuming the new CEO role in a couple months now at Apple, and he is a hardware expert. And Apple, I think, has realized over the last two years, as they've missed the entire AI model race, that their number one mode, aside from having the most consumer users for any kind of tech company in history, is hardware. It's one thing being able to have a really cool AI model. It's another thing being able to distribute it effectively

to billions of people all over the world. It is something that, the company Snap is trying to figure out. It's something that Open AI is trying to figure out. It's something that Google's trying to figure out with Android and their mobile phone distribution. But Apple has been the number one winner. It's the reason why they're like the number two or three most valuable company in the world. And I think that Apple realizes that Open AI poses a significant threat if they're poaching not only 400 of their employees, but all their trade secrets completely. Now, if you're wondering how the software and the hardware component kind of like melds together, imagine you're talking to an AI model

every single day on your laptop or it builds up this personal history of you you want it to travel wherever you go you wanted to eventually leave the computer and see the things that you see and ingest the information that you see why because the more information that you feed these AI models the smarter and more intelligent they become

around you so imagine the best way to do this is I'll have it on my iPhone I mean Josh you probably interact with your AI agents or your AI models from your phone pretty frequently I know I know I do it as well. I speak to it in voice mode. And I always wonder, like, hmm, I wonder if you could see what I see. I mean, I already do it. I take pictures of different things and I send it to my chatbot.

I'm like, hey, can you explain this to me? Or like, this is what I'm looking at. This is the information that you need. And it just reads it and ingest it. It would be cool if it did it 24-7, or if you could hear the conversation or the meeting that I was in. And all these different software features, all these different kind of inputs for all these various parts of data are kind of fracture at the moment. But Apple is the number one company that can pull off an amazing hardware suite. And so they know this and they see Open AI stealing their stuff and they're like, I'm not going let you do this. So I kind of understand the extent and measures that they're taking. And I hope John Turner's goes ham on this. I hope the lawsuit yields something quite interesting. Open AI currently

is the only major frontier lab that has faced like, I don't know, what is it, five lawsuits. I saw Elon Musk taking a dunk earlier, but he actually forewarned this in 20. It's patently absurd that Apple isn't smart enough to make their own AI, yet is somehow capable of ensuring that Open AI will protect your security and privacy. He's referring to the deal that they sign with Open AI where chat GPT will be used in Apple products. So I get it. Like, I see why he's doing this. Yeah, I think Apple needs to harden up a little bit.

And it's been funny actually seeing the commentary from Elon publicly because he is just really leaning into Sam. And he has been roasting Sam on Twitter to the last couple of days. It's been rough. But you mentioned all the safeguards that they do to keep leaks from happening. And yet simultaneously, just, I think, at the end of June, like a couple weeks ago, there was a 630 gigabyte leak of the new iPhone product suite from their Indian manufacturer, Tata, I believe the name is. And it was the biggest leak in Apple history by far.

It had all of the quality assurance testing. It had literal images and CAD design files of the next iPhone that we're going to be getting in September. And it was this huge leak that kind of showed a lot of. company secrets just open to the public, 630 gigabytes of leaks. So Apple has a serious problem on their hand. They need to harden up. They need to lock things down because it seems like they're really just running on these processes that have existed for a very long time, but there's no one there to really enforce or strengthen them. And I really hope that Apple gets hard again. And with John at this as the leadership position, he starts to clamp down and he starts to actually cause some havoc.

It's like Apple has been run by by Mr. Softie for a long time. And he's an incredible CEO and he's done amazing things. But Apple is very much in wartime right now. The iPhone legacy is not going to last much longer with all of these incumbents kicking their ass and AI and building somewhat competitive hardware products, TBD, assuming they're allowed to get them out the door. But they're open hands doing what they need to do to win. And Apple is not really doing anything to stop that or to put their foot on the gas. We haven't had any new products from Apple in a long time in terms of categories. They still have not shipped the new Siri. So we have a lot. Like there's definitely a bones pick with Apple there. And I hope this is the first step of them.

really turning it around and shifting the tides. It's also important to note that, like, Open AI tried to sue Apple early this year, which I thought was funny, for not really fully doing what they promised for their contract around chat GPT integration. And the reality is, is that they probably clawed that back real quick once they found out what was actually going on. It's just a disaster. It's been a train wreck for everybody involved. Apple actually reached out to Open AI in February, alerting them of all of these findings and happenings. Open AI did not reply. So it's like, this whole thing is kind of a train wreck here. And it's going to be interesting to follow the lawsuit and see what else comes out.

Because if this is already public and this is just in the initial filing, oh my God, the emails that are going to be leaked are going to be spectacular. Well, that's one thing about this entire thing. If the lawsuit does go to court, we are like, opening air has to give up a lot confidential information. We're going to see the designs. We're going to know exactly the code names of what hardware devices are trying to build, what that looks like, all exposed for everyone to see. I saw a blog post from Satya Nadella over the weekend. I don't know if you saw this, Josh, but it was called the reverse information paradox.

Now, it's a long essay, but I'll summarize what he's basically saying. He's basically saying that typically in an information world where you have a buyer and a seller of information, the seller bears all the risk, meaning in order for a buyer to know that the information is good, they have to see the information first. So technically, they're getting the product before

they even buy it. And then, you know, if a seller kind of like shows a buyer and they're like, oh, well, I don't really kind of like want this anymore, but they have the information, they can just get away with it. In the world of AI, it's reversed. If you are an AI lab, like Open AI, like Anthropic, you and I use these models. We impart all our information over, right, which becomes more valuable for the model to train and become more intelligent. But we're just giving that away for free. In fact, we're paying them for the privilege. We pay hundreds of dollars month to access this model that only gets smarter from personal information that we voluntarily give them. And so the point that Sachin Nadella was making here is in a world where this is the case,

enterprises need to safeguard their information. They need to harden down their systems and they need to make sure that there's no propriety information leaking. This is the exact same thing that's happening with Apple just on hardware secrets specifically. But I think it's going to become a growing issue for all these major companies, whether you're Salesforce, whether you're Microsoft, whether you're Google, whether you're Apple, you need to contain your secrets because the more that leaks out to these models, it'll just be trained from these frontier air labs and technically they can replace and do what you do. Now, of course, they have physical constraints. You need to get the supply chain manufacturers and all that kind of stuff. But that's just a matter of time, in my opinion. And it's this

weird kind of internal warfare that's waging between the tech industry that I honestly haven't seen before. It's very, very weird. The value of proprietary IP is so high. Huge. And the cost of it leaking is so high. It's like when you think about an LLM breakthrough, well, how much code is actually put into a transformer? There's not that much. And if there's a small efficiency breakthrough to be had anywhere, the downstream implications of that are billions to hundreds of billions to trillions of dollars. And that could be something as short as 40 lines of code. So the proprietary information this IP has never been more valuable. And therefore, the stakes have never been higher to try to capture whatever amount of it as you can and make that value apply to your company. So it's going to be a

Wild's race. I'm sure this isn't the last instance we're going to see of somebody stealing IP, stealing employees. I mean, this is only becoming a more vicious trend. We found out before starting this recording that California does not enforce non-competes, which is a crazy thing that I learned today. So anybody who's working in California can just leave and go work at a competitor the very next day. So you have to imagine that plays a big role in all of this. And it's kind of baked into the culture. This is just what happens. And companies have to work really hard to try to retain their talent, retain their IP, and just do the best they can. But that is the lawsuit, I think. That's what we know so far. Oh, I cannot wait for this to go into court if it does.

We're going to read through every single one of those emails. Josh, let me ask you a question before we round out. Do you think Apple is concerned? I'm worried at Open AI. Or do you think this is just a tactic where they're like, I just kind of want to put the little guy down? What do you think? I think they have to be concerned. I think it'd be irrational not to be concerned. Open AI has what a billion plus monthly active users and they have figured out AI in a way that Apple has not. A.I. is very clearly ascending and the traditional consumer software space is clearly descending. There's going to be this increased trend towards an AI first operating system in a way that an iOS operating system is not. And I think that's like a serious cause of concern. I mean, you have the guy who designed all of the flagship open

Apple products over at OpenAI now working on this new hardware suite. We know what him and his team are capable of. Now that they have the manufacturing capabilities, probably, and they have a lot of the secrets of how Apple works, that's a serious threat. I mean, if they can create consumer-grade products at Apple level with a software stack that Open AI is capable of, that's a really compelling product.

And this might be the first time that I actually buy a device other than an Apple device to use as my daily driver. Like, I can't think of the last time I used anything other than an Apple device. on a day-to-day basis. I have my AirPods. I have my MacBook. I have my iPhone. I have my Apple watch. If Open AI releases a hardware product, I'm buying their version of it. If there are smart AirPods with cameras with full AI baked in that look really cool like those cuff links, I'm buying. And I think that's a serious threat to Apple. So I would be concerned if I was them. And I think this probably comes out of a place of concern. Should they have done it sooner? Yes.

After they filed that they reached out to Open AI in February, they probably should have just filed the lawsuit back then. But I guess now the evidence that they've acquired is undisputable. and now they're a pretty strong key. So yeah, if I'm Apple, I'm a little worried about this. I think they're worried, but I also think a year from now, this will be seen as like the kick up the butt that they need it. I mean, listen, the bar is so low at Apple right now when it comes to AI stuff.

They haven't even launched their revamped Siri AI right now. That's going to be powered by a version of their Apple Foundation models and the Google Gemini model as well. So we're going to see a lot of that start to release at the end of the year. Apple will finally make their comeback. And I honestly think that Apple hasn't even tried at this point. And so if the question that is being asked is Open AI versus Apple, is this a serious threat? My honest take is like, no.

To the point that we mentioned earlier, Open AI still has a ton of challenges to overcome aside from this lawsuit, which is like figuring out the supply chain, manufacturing relationships, scaling this thing. Remember, like they only announced that an ambitious goal. This is from Sam's words, not mine, of 100 million units. Apple has currently 3.5 billion live devices out there right now. To catch up to that is going to take a while in a world where supply resources are super constrained. Like we had an episode last week where we talked about the memory wars and the fact that prices have hiked up 500% in the last year and a half.

That isn't going to get satiated over the next couple of years. It's going to take decades to do. So open air still has a mountain to climb, and this is just another one. And it comes literally like two weeks after they settled the Elon lawsuit. So Sam can't catch a break. But, you know, I wish them the best of luck. And we'll see how this plays out. We will be the first and only AI podcast to cover this in meticulous detail.

But I believe that takes us to the end of this episode. Josh, any final thoughts? No, I cannot wait to see this freaking device, man. We've been waiting since the inception of the show. All I want to do is just see the device. Just show me the damn thing. me how it's, tell me what I'm going to get it in my hands and how much money it's going cost. That's it. That's all I want to know. Everything else is just like, whatever.

Listen, if they have to steal a couple of secrets to make it better, like, that's fine by me. I mean, sucks for Apple, but that's an Apple problem. That's not a consumer problem. The winners at the end of the day. The listeners, the consumers are the winners. Like, let these guys find it out. We just get a sick product sooner, hopefully. Sooner, hopefully. But that's it. That's the story. So if you enjoyed, as always, please do not forget to share with a friend. Subscribe to our newsletter. Leave us a review on your favorite podcast player. And with that, we part ways. We do have to ask about sponsors, too.

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Thanks