LINUX Unplugged - 351: Lenovo Loves Linux

Episode Date: April 29, 2020

Fedora Project Leader Matthew Miller joins us to discuss Lenovo shipping ThinkPads loaded with Fedora, and our review of the new 32 release. Plus Ubuntu's Director of Desktop Martin Wimpress covers the details everyone missed in 20.04. Special Guests: Martin Wimpress, Matthew Miller, and Neal Gompa.

This is going to be one of those interesting episodes where we are going to have people bailing from the mumble room and then joining back during the show. Because right now, as we record, Red Hat Summit is happening. And Carl, you're manning a booth virtually right now? Yes, sir. The Fedora and CentOS chat room slash booth slash whatever you want to call it. That's awesome. And are you getting decent attendance? Oh, yeah.

On Demand created a Fedora badge, which is like a little gamification thing that they do in the Fedora community for attending. And you just show up in there and let them know what your Fedora account system username is, and they'll give you the badge. Oh, great. I was just about to ask, you know, virtual booth. We need virtual swag. Right. I was thinking the same thing. You know, this is like a different kind of summon, isn't it, Neil? I'm just glad it's happening at all, because like I've been I've been kind of depressed with all the events that have been canceling throughout the season. And it's been nice to at least listen to see what people are doing and chat with folks in there. And hey, this is the first summit where I technically maybe gave a talk. So that's cool.

Yeah. And this year, the ConCred would be real bad and you're not going to get that. So that's cool. Yeah. And this year, the con crowd would be real bad, and you're not going to get that. So that's a positive, too. Oh, yeah. I'm going to look forward to not being basically bedridden for a month again, like I was last year. I gave it a go. I logged in. I found it a little confusing, but kind of like you, I was just glad it was happening. And I thought to myself, I really appreciate the real Red Hat Summit, because when I really appreciate the real Red Hat Summit, because when you go to the actual Red Hat Summit, you really get an appreciation for

how dialed in Red Hat has that game. I've been to a lot of corporate events and they really have their summit game dialed in. The virtual version, it's a little rough. Hello friends and welcome into your weekly Linux talk show. My name is Chris. My name is Wes. Hello Mr. Payne. Quite the show we have for 351. Packed! Too much?

No. Can we ever do it? Just right. We can't help ourselves because we have so much to cover with a brand new Fedora release. And of course, there's things to follow up on the new Ubuntu 2004 release as well. We've had a little extra time with that. But as we said, we also gave the Fedora 32 release a full try. Who could resist? And I am happy to report that just after the show last week, actually during the show, they attempted to deliver my System76 Lumer Pro, but they didn't really ring the doorbell. I think they like

dropped it off on the porch and were like, I don't want the COVID and ran off and didn't even try. But the next day I was like camped up by the door. There's a window in the studio living room where I can see the entryway. And so there I was with my phone in hand watching. And they, you know, sure enough, knock, knock on the door, get the box. I opened it up, tried it out for a little bit. And then the next day I had to put Fedora 32 on it. And I'll give you my impressions of what it's like in the next week. We'll have the review. But before we get into that, before we get into the review of Fedora 32, the follow-up of Ubuntu 2004, the community news, I have to say, time-appropriate greetings to that mumble room. Hello, Virtual Lug. Hello.

What's up? Happy New Year's Tuesday. Hey! Whenever you guys do that, I always watch it from a waveform perspective, and it's very impressive visually, I have to say. Hello, everybody. It's a great showing in there. I know some of you may have to come and go as the summit's going, but special hello to Matt Diem. Matt from Fedora is back. Hello, Matthew. It's good to have you on the show. Good to be here. Very glad you're here on Fedora release day. Your timing is perfect, sir. And Mr. Martin Wimpress, glad to have you back,

sir. Hello, hello. Happy release to you as well. Thank you very much. Good to be here. Well, so why don't we start with you, Wimpy? Because there was a tweet from your fingers on April 24th saying there's new features in the Ubuntu desktop that no one is talking about. And I thought, well, let's talk about them. And the one that I thought maybe we could start with, but I'd love to just go anywhere with you on this, but the one I'd like to start with is it appears that with 2004, you can get a Ubuntu certified device right away. Like we're not, there's not this typical lag of months before OEM is certifying it. Is that true? It's not quite that. So the way that it works now is that in the past, the only way you could get

a certified device experience, which means the correct power endurance profiles, the correct firmware for auxiliary devices, the right drivers by default, all that sort of thing, was via the factory image that came preloaded. So what we've changed now is that when you do an install of the GA release of Ubuntu 20.04, it can identify if it's on a certified device and automatically pull in all of that stuff that would have been in the preloaded factory image into the standard install. So if you've got a certified device,

maybe you bought it pre-installed with Windows and you want to dual boot Ubuntu alongside it, or maybe you've decided to make the switch to Ubuntu, you'll get the factory experience just from the GA ISO. That is so cool. Now there's a bunch of other things in here we should talk about because one of the areas we didn't jump into was like the fingerprint stuff. And I'm curious if there's other areas you feel like need a little more attention to. There are. I mean, the fingerprint stuff is interesting that was another oem request

and that's more around um the support of uh new biometrics devices which um are mostly proprietary these days because they don't want people having sight of how the internals of those devices work so we needed a way to bring those devices into the Ubuntu desktop and the wider Linux desktop ecosystem. So we did some work with the three largest suppliers of those biometric devices to find a way where those can be enabled on the Linux desktop. So that was done in collaboration with the LibFprint project, and then also with the Upstream GNOME design team, who've got a new design to improve the way you

enroll your fingerprints and then do fingerprint unlock. So we don't have those new designs implemented in 2004, but they will land before 2004.1. That is very exciting. And also just impressive the amount of sort of backroom dealings, you know, working out arrangements. It has to go on to actually make these user visible features happen. So what we've done is we've created a libfprint compatible protocol shim that sits in front of these proprietary drivers

and translates the proprietary driver implementation into a lib fprint compatible protocol. Clever. Before we get to the scuttlebot I've already seen over 2010, what else was missed in the coverage of 2004? So I think it was subtle stuff that was more like a distro level rather than, you actual features of the desktop itself and some of this work was work that you know i was interested in doing a community level and it's stuff that predated you know me coming back to the ubuntu desktop team but it's things like making sure that ffmpeg is nvenc and vappy and OpenCL accelerated in the distros so that things like OBS Studio

and the video editors and all the rest of it can exploit all of those acceleration for scrubbing through timelines using acceleration and doing, you know, hardware accelerated video encode and all the rest of it. Oh, that sounds great for folks who are, you know, new. I mean, I know how to compile those things in, but that's a big blocker if you're just trying to make some content. Yeah, indeed. And it was there in 1804,

albeit with the older way that NVENC was exposed via FFmpeg. And then because of changes in the FFmpeg project, it fell away in subsequent releases and we wanted to bring that back. So, you know, it's stuff like that and, you know, uplifting Steam so that all of the current crop of vr devices and controllers all work out of the box when you install steam you know a whole raft of work around improving quality of life for

people that want to make videos or want to live stream or want to play games. And that also extends to including Feral's game mode, Damon. Yeah, this is interesting. It's something that I don't recall being super easy to actually get running during the beta. So I was surprised to see it in 2004 final. Maybe I was wrong about that, but I seem to recall early on in the process having some trouble actually getting game mode for 2004. Right. So this was the last feature we landed in Ubuntu desktop 2004. Okay. It landed release week. I think it landed on the Monday and we released on the Thursday. So it was very late coming, but it was something, if you look at the bug report for it, I think I started

that process as like, I think it's the first thing i did when i took over from will was actually start that process and it's and it sounds like a trivial thing well game mode's just a bit of software and it's just a package so that you just include in the distro but for everything that is in the buntu desktop it has to be in the main archive and the main archive is traditionally the archive that gets all of the security support and proactive security maintenance. So in order to get into that archive, the security team have to conduct a manual security review and audit all of the code. And we also have to do packaging checks to make sure that the upstream is active, they have the appropriate security reporting mechanisms, the health of the packaging of the software is did and the upstream conversations they had in

Feral's GitHub around the security review that we did. So, you know, there was a number of, you know, changes and updates that happened in order for it to land in main, which I think happened a week before release and then subsequently get included in the image. So, yeah, it wasn't in the beta, but it's in the final release. Well, while we're talking about gaming, there is one new touch that I didn't, and I still haven't regretfully had a chance to try yet. And that is if people out there have hybrid graphics

or like myself, I have an external eGPU that I've talked about before on this show. Well, now you can right click on an icon in the launcher, you know, where you normally have like new window or add to favorites, you know, the options you normally have in GNOME Shell. There's an option in there to launch using the dedicated graphics card. How the hell does this work? How is this possible? And do all I have to do is just plug in my eGPU and this just shows up in GNOME Shell? Well, first of all, let's start at the very beginning. This is an upstream GNOME feature. It was first introduced in GNOME 3.34, but it only worked with Intel and AMD drivers. And what was added in 3.36 was support for NVIDIA.

If you've got an NVIDIA Intel hybrid system, you need to be running the NVIDIA proprietary drivers. And the NVIDIA proprietary drivers need to be in on-demand mode. So you're choosing that mode where the Intel IGP is in use and is rendering the desktop. And the NVIDIA GPU is in this low power state waiting to be used. And although this is a feature that I think it's integrated in GLIB, I may be wrong about that, but I think it's in GLIB. But essentially, in order to run a process

on a dedicated GPU, it's just the case of setting a few environment variables prior to launching the process. So what's happening behind the scenes is a few environment variables get inserted into the execution context for the application that you've chosen to run when you right click and say launch on dedicated GPU. And it puts the appropriate environment variables in there for if you're using an AMD graphics card or an NVIDIA graphics card.

And then subsequently, that process is now running with the full capability of that GPU. I've been doing that manually, you know, on the terminal now for a while, but this is just such a level of finesse that it feels special. It feels like something maybe just you'd normally see on the commercial operating systems. I mean, I have to say that GNOME 3.36 has just been a load of stuff that's landed all at once that just makes it an outstanding version of GNOME. You know, there was lots of design refinement that I think was originally scoped out by the GNOME design team in 2017. And they've been slowly working towards and then loads of it landed in this cycle. So it's perfect

time for us to be releasing an LTS because without doubt, this is the best GNOME shell ever. Very well said. And that is going to echo in my Fedora 32 review as well. It is the culmination of years of work that are landing in this version. What a perfect release for an LTS. Yeah, it really is. I mean, yeah, it's a fantastic GNOME Shell release, you know, without question. I'm curious if you have any other bits or thoughts on like the ZFS stuff or any early information on how that's going. It's too early to look at the adoption rate on that just yet, but it's stronger than 1910. So it'll be interesting to see how many people are opting into ZFS.

But the big change there is the introduction of ZSYS, which is our integration layer that sits between ZFS and Ubuntu. And so that's responsible for doing event-driven snapshots and that's mostly around if you do large package installs or upgrades then snapshots zfs snapshots are taken prior to those transactions being committed so if an update goes bad restore points are automatically exposed in the Grub Boot menu. So you can simply choose to, you know, boot into the point before that upgrade took place. And it really does work. That's what's so great, is it really works.

It saved my bacon a couple of times during the beta. Fantastic. I'm glad to hear that's working for you. And this lays the foundations for more backup restore capabilities that we're going to be building on top of that as we work towards 2204. WireGuard obviously has been backported to the 5.4 kernel in 2004, but you were mentioning on the pre-pre-show that 1804 users, if they're sticking with 1804, eventually they're going to get WireGuard backported as well. That's right. So as you'll be familiar, we do point releases for the LTSs and the next 18.04 point release will have another or a newer hardware enablement stack,

which will include effectively what is the 5.4 kernel from 20.04. And therefore, by way of that, you will get WireGuard in 1804. So for those people that are wanting to use 1804 for the long term, then you'll soon have WireGuard built straight into the kernel. No DKMS modules. In fact, that's an interesting point. Because we're not using DKMS modules for things like WireGuard or the NVIDIA drivers even these days. So the NVIDIA drivers are distributed as late-linked binaries that are signed. So you can leave Secure Boot

enabled without, you know, even with NVIDIA drivers and WireGuard turned on. Oh, it's just so nice. Every time you update, you know, not having to worry about DKMS. The one disappointing part there is now, what am I going to do to, you know, pressure people to move on to 1804? I can't hold WireGuard over their head. Yeah, this is that GNOME 3.6 goodness. GNOME 3.3.6. Well, any other spots you wanted to mention or bits of attention you wanted to shine a light on? That's a pretty good list. The thing that I love above all other things about this release is the Yuru theme. It was absolutely fantastic getting together with the four guys who are sort of the core Yuru team.

We had them in the canonical offices in London in January, and we had members of the Ubuntu design team and desktop team and then hangers-on like me and Popey, you know, cheering from the sidelines. And we had this week long sprint and completely changed the face of Ubuntu for this LTS. And I have to say, I'm very proud of their accomplishments. And I love the new bold look, even though it's unmistakably Ubuntu, it's quite a change of direction. I absolutely love it. I think it's my favorite default theme so far.

And we were having a conversation in the Jupyter Broadcasting Telegram group that a lot of us are loading it on other distros too. And it is fairly straightforward to do that. And it just looks so great. And I like the combination with the appearance setting in GNOME settings where I can just go and it's one click and everything's dark. And it looks looks so great. And I like the combination with the appearance setting in GNOME settings where I can just go and it's one click and everything's dark. And it looks really nice. The reason it's easy to install on other distros is no mistake. That was actually a product of the design sprint

based on feedback that we had from Guadec and the Linux Application Summit, which is there are obviously developers who are using distributions that are not Ubuntu and they want to make sure that their applications look correct on, you know, other distributions. And the criticism is, well, I don't use Ubuntu. So how can I check to see if my apps work fine on Ubuntu? So we've made sure that the Yuru theme is packaged and available everywhere it needs to be available. So you can, you know, use that theme elsewhere to make sure everything's working right. Well, it is great. Congratulations to you, the team, and of course, all the upstream

developers. It all came together. It's a great LTS. Thank you very much. I shall pass those words on. Please pass on a thank you to whoever's making the Raspberry Pi 4 support. So rocking awesome, I shall pass those words on. that's on 2004, I can boot now from USB devices and my Raspberry Pi 4 feels like a real computer. And I'm running an LTS on there at the same time. And it's a distribution that I understand and trust. I'm going all in. I think I'm even going to enroll them in landscape. So that way I can just basically manage them without having to really think about it. That'd be a solid idea, really. Dave Jones, who has been in and around the Raspberry Pi community for years, was hired by Canonical about 18 months ago. And he's been leading that effort to really deliver a first class experience on the Raspberry Pi.

And I'm delighted to say we're in the middle of our product strategy planning sprint for this week for what will become 2010, which is going to be the groovy gorilla. week for what will become 2010, which is going to be the groovy gorilla. And we had our talk about Raspberry Pi, and I'm looking forward to everything to come in 2010 for Raspberry Pi users. Oh, man, you're going to get me upgrading now on my Pi. Jeez Louise. Well, that's a good problem to have. Well, great. Thank you for coming on and covering some of that stuff. And I hope you get some downtime now. I hope you're going to be able to catch your breath soon. Yeah, I'm going to hang up my boots for a week and go and sit in the garden

and drink some champagne, maybe. Well deserved. Before we go, Minimac has one question for you, and I'm kind of interested to hear it. So go ahead, Minimac, let's get that in. Yeah, thank you. Wimpy, on my 1804 Ubuntu box, I have signed into the canonical live patch service

to get the kernel patches live patched in. But from time to time, I had to reboot. Now I read that you did some work on that. Can you be a little bit more specific on that? So live patch is actually built on an upstream kernel implementation. So it's not our own thing. It's just leveraging what's upstream. And all we've done is contribute to that upstream effort to improve it. But yes, live patch is available

in limited numbers. I think it's like three or five machines. I think if you're an Ubuntu member, it's for 50 machines. An Ubuntu member being somebody who is in the Ubuntu community and has been recognized as somebody making a sustained commitment to the Ubuntu project, then you get 50 activations. So, you know, all your home servers and your laptops. But it's basically like high and critical CVEs in the kernel that you will get patched via live patch where you don't require a reboot in order for them to take. How lucky are we to have both Wimby and Matt here today? Incredible.

Matt, congratulations on the announcement that there soon will be ThinkPads shipping with Fedora. This is huge, and people have been talking about it since the moment this announcement landed. And it looks like we're getting several models off the bat. Yeah, what, the ThinkPad P1, P53, and X1. Oh, yeah, the X1. Yes, yes.

Now, I think this isn't too surprising if everyone listening remembers not too long ago we announced that Lenovo was joining the Linux vendor firmware service. And I think a lot of us went, well, I know there's a lot of Linux users that use them already, but I wonder if this is going somewhere bigger. And I think maybe we're here. So this is a big moment for the project, Matt. And it's fantastic that it's ThinkPads from Lenovo.

I am super, super excited. And Lenovo has been amazing to work with. They're really interested in doing things the open source way, being part of the community, not stepping on things. And they really were interested in shipping the stock Fedora image without any modifications, which is very exciting for us as well, because we obviously work so hard to make that image good. Talk to me about their comfort level with the cadence of Fedora, because it sounds like maybe that stock image aspect of it would make it maybe fairly straightforward to just keep current on whatever the latest, so in 33 ships, for example? Yeah, exactly. That's exactly what they're planning to do.

They're already on a six-month cadence for Windows updates. So it's basically the same thing with all of their processes. So they were not really concerned with that at all. I'm surprised to hear that, actually. I didn't know they would be on that frequent of occasions with Windows, but it is the Windows 10 era. Well, as we've been talking about right now, Red Hat Summit's going on, and Mark P. from Lenovo was in the Fedora and CentOS community area, and he said that right now they've got these three

platforms as a pilot, but he says that if things were, say, to go well, he could see it expanding to other platforms, including desktops. Although I won't say the numbers, I talked to them about the number of sales that they want to make to feel like this was a success. And it wasn't a crazy number. So I'm very optimistic that they're going to hit those targets and see this as success and we'll see more. Well, let me ask you a question. I mean, would it be possible that going forward when Red Hat employees, maybe they get hired or it's time to replace their rig and they just get issued a machine, could it potentially be now one of these? Could that count towards that sale number? Yeah, I assume so.

We've been talking to our IT people about that. Red Hat already has standardized on Lenovo laptops for their models. So we are going to be ordering these particular SKUs in the future. There may need to be some other models because like you said, there are these three select models and there may be use cases that Red Hat has that doesn't fit those SKUs. So we may order some other ones as well. But yeah, that should be it. And I guess they have some other large customers that were interested in Fedora. That's where the demand for this came from their side that hopefully will fill out a lot more of them as well. But of course, all of you and all of your listeners,

please help out next time you have a laptop to buy. This is definitely a choice that you can make that will help. Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of people have been waiting for a long time for current ThinkPads that would just be preloaded with Linux. And there's been various ways to get them over the years. But the nice thing about the sort of focus channel approach is that it's much easier for people who are kind of just in that shopping mode to kind of identify what they're getting. You know, I've noted for years now, and that's pretty impressive to be able to actually mean that, but for years I've noted that the upgrade cycles on Fedora have been very painless. In fact, I think I had a machine that had been upgrading from 22 and I brought it all the way up to 31 before I finally gave up and said, all right, it's working. I don't need to keep trying this.

Do you think that has started to set in in the user base of Linux? Are people starting to get that, that you don't necessarily have to have a long-term support and you don't necessarily have to have rolling? There's a spot right here in the middle. I hope so. We've been focusing on that for a while. We're kind of going to give the benefits of the newer software that people get with the rolling release, but with a little more predictability and the ability for us to do

solid QA on it to make sure that each release is something that we feel proud to put our name on. Right. You know, I had a couple people tell me, oh, I upgraded over lunch. I think it's kind of a sweet spot, and I think we're doing a good job of hitting it. That along with having our actual release cycles be more predictable and making sure that, you know, we can have the Mother's Day Halloween releases every year. And you can basically, you know, plan around that happening. And it's such a kind of a different world now for software availability, both from video driver standpoint for both AMD, NVIDIA, and Intel, availability, both from video driver standpoint for both AMD, NVIDIA, and Intel, but also just from a lot of the applications where you use these universal package formats and they just sort of

stick around and work just between upgrades. So it also kind of abstracts that layer out. All right. So I got to go back to the laptop and I got to ask a question that I think everybody listening is wondering, do you have any insight on when these things are actually going to be able to be purchased? Well, as I said on Reddit, I know, but I can't tell you. And it's not because of lawyers. It's because of the marketing people who would like to have their big splash. And I would not like to ruin that. Sure. And there's always there's some last things that they're going through to make sure all their regulatory compliance and everything is all signed off on. And so it's possible there'll be delays or something. So I don't want to promise a date that isn't doesn't come true. But it really shouldn't be that long. Sounds reasonable. Sounds like we don't have to wait too much longer and there'll

be news on it in the near future. It sounds like. Yeah, exactly. I bet this is great news. You know, made me think of folks who maybe don't have a lot of laptop choice. They're working for a larger IT organization, and that organization wants to see the support from the manufacturer. So, sure, you could get Ubuntu on Dell's, but now there's a whole new world of options. Yeah, I know definitely when we joined Linux Academy, you know, they were looking at just a couple laptop options like System76 and the XPS 13. Because if they were going to issue Linux laptops to employees, they wanted it to be supported by the OEM. Exactly.

Even if it meant that IT actually provides all of the support, it just from almost like a, not a due diligence standpoint, but from like a responsibility of purchasing, if you're going to spend $1,800 to two grand on a machine, you want it to be a supported configuration. And have someone to yell at if it doesn't work. That's always nice. A lot of these laptops, someone on Hacker News, their first complaint was, Lenovo was promised they'd have Ubuntu available

and I can't buy it. And the fact is, Lenovo does ship Ubuntu and certified RHEL configurations on a number of their workstation class systems already. But they're not available to you unless you go through a very complicated channel process and are buying a whole bunch of them, and there's a lot of paperwork involved.

And so this is very exciting because this will just be like when you go to buy one of these laptops, it'll be a dropdown in the OS configurator. You'll be able to pick through our Workstation right next to whatever version of Windows you could choose instead. I mean, I'm sure it's still having some scuttlebutt and discussion, but I think if Red Hat Summit was in person right now and this news had just dropped, it would be one of the points of conversation amongst the attendees.

Is this deal? Yeah, we were hoping to have the Lenovo people there at the Fedora booth with us. Obviously, I think the whole news cycle has been just kind of disrupted. And even your Red Hat Summit, not just going virtual, but just kind of the tone of announcements and news and press. It's like, this is not the time. So things are a lot more subdued. On the other hand, we had this in the works and we weren't going to hide it. I think people have noticed, though, I think at least in our circles, people have noticed it's been getting a lot of conversation in our community channels.

I think job done is probably not the perfect time to make that kind of announcement. But I think you got pretty close. Well, thank you, Matt. Stick around. We're going to talk about Fedora 32 here in a little bit. But first, a little housekeeping to do is as we do. If you know that we're doing this live, but you don't know when, did you know that we have a solution, Wes? Sure do. Thanks to the magic of the internet. Yeah, this is something that's brand new, so I don't blame you for never knowing about it.

We've never mentioned it before on the show ever. It's jupiterbroadcasting.com slash calendar. Oh, wait, what? What was that? Oh, hold on, Wes. I'm getting a note here. I've been there for almost eight years. Oh, wait, what? What was that? Oh, hold on, Wes. I'm getting a note here from the, I've been there for almost eight years. Oh, well, Jupyter Broadcasting, maybe I probably, I probably don't need to mention it. Jupyter Broadcasting dot com slash calendar. I just

realized how fast I say that. Jupyter Broadcasting dot com. Jupyter Broadcasting dot com slash calendar. Yeah, there you go. RSS feed for this show is at linuxunplugged.com slash subscribe where you can get the feeds and put it in any podcatcher you like. If you'd like to join us in the Telegram community, it's jupyterbroadcasting.com slash Telegram. And please do. Yes, and if you are an

ACG subscriber, a cloud guru has launched the cloud playgrounds for business customers. In the biz, that term is called B2B. B2C is business to customer, and B2B is business to business. The more you know. Yeah, well, you think about it, you get into a place you need to skill up. It's actually a very, very handy thing.

Yeah, having good training right there available from your employer, hey, hard to beat. I am thrilled to say that we had another LUP plug on Sunday. Wes and I made it and Cheesy was there and a whole bunch of folks in the Mumble room were there. Neil was neck deep in a VBolt instance and just ready to go. And we talked about the Pine devices a little bit. We really got into some really cool history stuff, too. We were really kind of talking about old Linux and just a great chat. I hung out for a couple hours. Then I don't know, how long did, did anybody know how long it went after I left? About three hours after you left. Yeah. So that's fantastic. It's noon Pacific,

which is the same time we do this show on Tuesdays. So we just take the Tuesday time and we put it on a Sunday. You see what we did there? It's very clever. It wasn't my idea. Keep it simple because otherwise I don't think you would remember when to show up. No. And you know what's weird about it is the timing, because that was when I recorded LAN on Sundays. And then the weekend that I would have been doing LAN,

but I no longer had LAN, the mumble was meeting. And it was like, I don't know, I just stepped from one to the other. Keep your groove, and now you've got more community. Yeah, it's pretty great. And so we hang out, and I turn on the loudspeaker so my wife can listen into and have a chuckle. She loves it. I'm sure she loves it. It was pretty great. So if you want to join us, there's an IRC room. It's irc.geekshed.net

pound luplug. And then we just hang out on our mumble room, which is kind of great because it gives you maybe a chance to try out mumble, try out your mic before Tuesdays. And then we just hang out on our mumble room, which is kind of great because it gives you maybe a chance to try out mumble, try out your mic before Tuesdays. And then you got everything set up. You could just join us at the same spot. Yeah, low pressure, fun, casual hangout. Yeah, it's pretty great. We'd love to see you. So join us on Sundays.

Love Blog actually went all the way to 10 p.m. Pacific. Holy cow. So just spend your whole Sunday there. Grab a pizza. Or two. A couple of beverages just spend your whole Sunday there. Grab a pizza, grab a couple of beverages, put your feet up. All right. Well, today Fedora 32 is officially released. You may recall a few episodes ago, episode diggity. I put it lower down in the doc. You did. 348. 348. That was a really fun episode. So linuxunplugged.com slash 348. We took one of the big features of Fedora 32 and just sort of zoomed in on that.

And that is the early out of memory killer. And it's fascinating the difference it makes. So check that out because that's a big part of what makes Fedora 32 on the desktop experience a little bit different. But along with that is your standard updates to things like GNOME. You have GNOME 3.36 in here, which includes that new beautiful, beautiful login and unlock screen. I mean, I've been using it for a while, but every time I wake my computer up, it's just a treat. That's just such a great example. Like Wimpy was intimating earlier, that work was started in 2017 at a hack fest in London, and now it's landed here in 2020.

It's a special thing that you've got to actually use it to see it. It feels beautiful, full stop. Yeah, it really feels elegant. beautiful full stop. Yeah, it really feels elegant. So along with early out-of-memory manager enabled by default, which helps improve the desktop experience, and then the fixes that have landed in GNOME 3.3.6 that have helped improve experience in I.O. loads. So that's something that a lot of work went into with this release of GNOME, where these bug fixes landed, is rooting out what caused GNOME Shell to stall during heavy IO load situations. And tons of those fixes have landed. Fedora 32 sort of doubles down

on that by including that early out of memory killer, but also by doing things like enabling trim by default on the SSDs and switching firewall D defaults to using NF tables. Fedora, you're so modern. So tell us about this, Wes. This is kind of a neat little trick. Yeah, I mean, NF tables has been around since 2013, I think. And that's been a long time. But as usual, no major distros have gotten around to really adopting it or adding it in places.

Sure, you could use it yourself. It's been in the kernel. And really, that's sort of what, you know what folks upstream in the kernel have been working on. Been in the kernel since kernel 3.13. That's how long it's been in the kernel. That feels like a long time ago. But, you know, nobody's used it, like you said. So this is kind of, I guess, the quote-unquote new packet filtering engine, if you could call it that.

But why? Why? Well, as always, when you upgrade things, you just get rid of some of the cruft from the past. There's a lot of code duplication and inconsistencies in the current IP tables world. In particular, there's a lot of protocol-specific extensions that are hacked in there to make it work for an individual protocol, and nothing that would let you match on packet fields or do that in a more elegant way. So instead of having to add in all this custom work, that's just handled for you. There's also a lot better handling if you've got a dual stack setup,

so IPv4 and IPv6 at the same time. If anyone's used IP tables for that and had to use both IP tables and IPv6 tables, it's just kind of a confusing mess and that's a lot better handled in NF tables. That's nice and something that I haven't yet played with, but seems like one of those things that'd be worth just dorking around with. There's also the adoption of sysusers.d format, which I also don't really quite understand or even really appreciate what

this is. Can you help me understand this one? Well, so if you think about it, a lot of packages are out there installing users, right? Yeah. But that's not always super introspectable, especially if it's just in some post-install script where they run the actual commands to just install the user. So this change uses the sysusers.d format, adds some hooks into the packaging system so that you can do this in a declarative way. And there's kind of a theme in a lot of these changes around being more declarative. So you can just look at the packaging and see like, oh, it needs this user. And then you'll know that that'll actually get handled in the right way. So instead of like hashing together

some sort of bash script that like checks to see if that UID and GID exist and all of that, it's just sort of like a handoff to say, hey, OS, I want this thing done. Yeah, exactly. There's also maybe some changes in the future to integrate with systemd sys users. Now that's not happening now,

but this change makes a future switch like that easier. You can just stub it out. There's other small tweaks, like DNF getting a little bit faster at counting a few things, although I think we're about to realize the benefits of that in the next release. Also, the ability to restart services at the end of an RPM transaction has been changed. So that's another one of those declarative changes where, yeah, you could do that yourself, but you might have complicated dependencies between different services, and you need to get that right. So now, again, you can see what needs to be restarted. You can register that with the package system

so that all those things get started at once and you avoid some of those nasty race conditions. This is what I love about a Fedora release is on the surface, it's like, oh, it's a new GNOME shell. Okay, right. But when you actually go below the surface and you see what they're doing here, you see like there's so much stuff that we've been talking about for months now that is landing. Like kernel 5.6, which has WireGuard, Python 3.8, LLVM 10, but also GCC 10, which is a big deal, and SystemD 245. 10, which is a big deal, and SystemD 245. So the big deal about SystemD 245, version 245, if you can believe that, is the first release that includes the new SystemD HomeD stuff. Ooh, changing the world once again. Nothing's really been done with it at this time, but it's there now.

Yeah, you've got HomeCTL right on your command line already. After you install, you can start setting things up. I tried it a little bit and didn't quite get it working before the show, but I've also never used it before and it will definitely be something I'm playing with. That seems like a big deal. I don't know. That's like a big one. And then the other thing that we've been watching for what feels like a hundred years, but has seen some significant improvements in this release is Pipewire. Some early work on kind of making Pipewire sort of fit and finish stuff is now getting laid down. But more importantly, this release, they say, has basically full-on jack compatibility and full jack support. So now Pipewire can fully integrate with jack on both ends. And they did something, I can't remember because I just read

this this morning, but essentially they've changed the way they do like a direct frame buffer copy for streaming the desktop and they've made it much more efficient now to like capture the desktop and put that into a video stream and send that to an application. That's how to rework as well.

Oh darn, sounds like we're going to have to reinstall the studio after the show. Yeah, right, right, right. Hey, also retiring Python too. Uh uh-huh that's another sign of those changes where it has to happen it's been a long time fedora isn't afraid to push ahead there's some performance benchmarks if you like those kinds of things that we have linked in the show notes michael larable did the whole fedora 32 versus 2004 with versus x11 versus Wayland. And then also one that I always love is the cross desktop benchmarks.

Right. Gnome Shell versus LXCE versus Plasma and all the others. That's all linked in there. Essentially, the takeaway is it depends, which is what always happens with these reviews on all these sort of similar releases.

You know, as I've been playing with the beta up till the release today, I will say Fedora 32 has been a dream to virtualize. Even just using Wayland, no issues whatsoever. I kind of forgot I was using it in a virtual machine for a while. So I put this on the Lemur Pro from System76. It feels so wicked fast that it's been one of those

where I show it to people and I'm like, try this, try this try this both 2004 and fedora 32 part of the boot experience now is so smooth because they're using the oem uefi logo stuff right exactly hands off from the bootloader very nicely and so it boots about as long as it used to take a pc to just post that's literally how long it takes the limerick pro with fedora 32 to boot like when you wouldn't you know when you'd beep and then you'd get a memory count and then it would flip over to the next screen and it'd show all your PCI

devices and then you would go to your bootloader and then your OS boots. With this, it's vendor logo, then there's a flash of the vendor logo, and then there's a flash and you're on, it's not even really a flash, it's more of a transition, and you're at GDM. I mean, you almost can't tell, like, was this just hibernated or suspended or did I do a

full boot? Yeah, I'd say it's just a few shakes slower than waking from sleep. If sleep waking wasn't so dang fast now, like if it was like what used to be back when you used to have like a disc spin up or something, yeah, it's really, really fast. And it's smooth. The theme is clean. Very clean. And the GNOME experience is also very clean because there's not a lot of tweaks.

Some of the things I got to admit I do like that Canonical tweaks is like the appearance tab. I've learned to kind of like my favorites to a dock thing. So there's just extensions I go turn on. But it's even easier to manage that now because there's a dedicated extensions app that's officially upstream supported. And so it's even easier now to manage your extensions and toggle ones that aren't working and toggle them on and off. I love all that. Right. I don't know about you, but as great an experience I had on 2004, I think Fedora 32 is feeling faster. The performance does seem a little bit snappier. It's been super snappy.

I did a clean install last night of the ISO image, and it was within seconds I had everything up to date. The software experience is really smooth for installing both firmware packages, but also the OS upgrades. No kidding. And then that nice little pop-up asking if you want to turn on third-party repos is clean and just simple. If you'd shown me this, like even let's say three, three years ago, I don't know. I would believe it was desktop Linux. It really is pretty great. So what

was the bacon take? Well, I mean, there were a few things again, I just looked at it with my bacon eyes, I suppose. Your cheesy bacon eyes. I do like the wallpapers that they've put in. There's some, some pretty stylish ones that they've created for themselves, especially the 3D printed one, because I'm a nerd like that. And I've been 3D printing everything as of late. I thought you might like that one. And honestly, it just looks really sharp, you know, the nice depth of field in there. Exactly, exactly. And so that's my default wallpaper at the moment. I really liked about your first initial impression of Fedora was the fact that especially for new

users, you have the help comes up right there, but they've also added these nice little video clips just to show you how to navigate the Gnome system itself. So how to switch workspaces, how to quickly open up the applications menu. And I think that those are nice little touches, especially for someone that might be getting a Lenovo laptop preloaded with Fedora and have never used Linux before. So this might really help those types of users out. And I thought another really interesting feature was once you initially installed the system, the updates were done in the background for you on that first boot and then applied for you on the reboot. So similar to how you would have a progress bar with Windows or Mac OS or something like that, letting you know that updates are being installed.

I thought that that was a really clean way to handle that initial first boot. And I think that kind of goes back to these additional little features like the videos and helping new users kind of get a feel for it and understand the system. There were a couple of dislikes, things that I think could be worked on. I think the partitioning is still a little awkward, especially if you are a new user and you're coming over. It's definitely not as clean, in my opinion, as, say, Ubuntu is on partitioning and knowing what you're going to do. A couple of things like Telegram wasn't available for me in the default store. So I had to go to Flathub and pull that down.

You know, you guys would probably know more about this, but I don't know if FlatHub is integrated into the software store. Well, when you go to FlatHub and you do the quick setup, after that point, it will be. It's just added as one of the repositories. But Flatpak itself is pre-installed. Yes. Yeah, just the FlatHub repo is not added, but thankfully

it's like a one-line command. You don't even have to sudo for it. Again, fractional scaling, while built it's like a one-line command. You don't even have to sudo for it. Again, fractional scaling, you know, while built in, it wasn't in the UI. So not really a big deal for me on my test machine. But when I'm pushing, you know, something on my 4K monitor, I would like to see that available there. And I thought it was kind of weird that there were two image viewers.

So you had photos and and then Images as well. Photos, I assume, is a Fedora project, while Images is a Gnome project. Well, I think it's Photos is like to manage and organize a photo library, similar to Photos on macOS and iOS. And then Image Viewer or Viewer, whatever it's called, is for like viewing JPEGs in your downloads folder, PDFs and things like that. It doesn't have the same sort of like albums or favorites or that sort of stuff. Got you. And that's kind of what I thought would be the case, right? It would be more for managing photos as opposed to images.

You know, I noticed that you could crop and rotate and do a couple editing features in there as well. But I didn't take a deep dive into either one of those applications, to be honest. But I think overall, it's a great release. I mean, I enjoyed it. I liked the little nuanced features that they added for the new user. You know, the theming, I think, you know, they've just used the stock GNOME theme. I think that's something they could work toward in the future is maybe dialing that in a little bit

and maybe enabling the Yaru theme by default. Careful, you could be touching the third rail there on that one. You know how contentious that whole theming thing gets? bit and maybe enabling the Yaru theme by default. Careful, you could be touching the third rail there on that one. You know how contentious that whole theming thing gets. I think all of us are looking forward to, maybe I'll bring Matt in on this point, is I believe in the next release of Fedora, there is going to be a transition for DNF that will improve performance fairly considerably. Did I read that right, Matt, that that's being worked on for the next release? They're working on it.

I don't know how much of it's going to land in the next release, because when you're looking at the update system, it's fairly sensitive. So you want to make sure any changes like that are safe. Yeah, fair enough. Yeah, no kidding. Yeah, better to take it slow and steady with that. So I was sitting here thinking Fedora in a very special way represents the collective works of so many upstream projects, some of which Red Hat incubates and others outside of that. And

I wonder if you've noticed something that has stood out to Wes and I, Matt, and that is as we dug into this for research for the show, we realized there was significantly more in this release than what is in the written press right now. Not to, like, take away from what they've done, because it's great that it's getting coverage, but it seems like Fedora has a bit, and I hate to be cliche, but it has a bit of an iceberg scenario where some of the big features, like the new desktop release, or out-of-memory killer or some package transition, those are visible. But then below the surface, there's so many more things about this release of Fedora that we didn't realize until we started doing our research. And I wonder if you feel like that stuff isn't properly getting exposure, if you've noticed this too.

Oh, yeah, absolutely. And there are thousands of packages in Fedora with a huge rate of change. And we used to, a couple of years ago, have a couple of people on our docs team who are really dedicated to making sure we had release notes that had a broad coverage of a lot of that change. And that's kind of fallen off just as people have moved on to other things. It would be awesome to have some people focusing on that again. So that's an area we could use some help. So this is maybe a call to help. Join the Fedora docs team and see what you can do around release notes.

It's an easy way to make things better. What a great way to contribute. And in the announcements, we kind of try to pick a few highlights. But even there, I kind of rely on people to tell me, hey, this is an interesting thing I did. And then I kind of talk together with our marketing people and our PR people and say, okay, what are the things we should kind of put at the front here so that they get the attention this time around?

I try to rotate those things a little bit. So it's not always like new version of GCC every time or whatever piece of software, new GNOME, new CoreOS things. So there's a little bit of different attention. But yeah, there's so much. It can't all get the attention it deserves. There really is. And you would think, oh, it's a small

release, but there's so much in there. There's so many packages that have such huge things still changing, and we just go along and upgrade, and it all just works typically, almost always. I think what we want is the nerd report. All the nitty-gritty, like Colonel Newbies, but for Fedora. Yeah, really, that'd be great.

Somebody get on that. Get in contact with Matt and let him know. Matty, what's the best way for people to get a hold of you if they actually did want to maybe help out with that? You can join our Fedora mailing lists, MattDM on Twitter, MattDMFedora on Reddit. Those are probably the best places. You can email me. I am generally available.

IRC, I'm around. Well, I got to say, this release with the improvements to Gnome Shell and whatnot feels wicked fast. It really is pretty impressive at being a longtime desktop Linux user and seeing this level of improvement

continually over the years. You know, I think it's something that we take for granted. It could have gone very much the other way. It could be getting slower and more and more loaded, and we've gotten the exact opposite. Is there anything that's in this 32 release that you don't think is getting a lot of attention right now that you want to shed a little light on?

Yeah, I think we've got a couple of interesting things. One of them is finally the Fedora Core OS. We are getting to our different streams of having a next and updates and a stable stream in Fedora Core OS, which is an important step of making that actually something I really want to recommend people to use to install their compute clusters and things on top of. Another neat thing that the computational neuroscience sig in fedora special interest group put together a spin of the desktop you basically install a live cd that has all this neuroscience stuff on it so that people in the neuroscience community can get

their brain imaging and all the software open source software that does that in one nice, easy, slick place. And I really love this because, you know, obviously that's a niche, but I really want Fedora to be a place where people who have niche interests can come and make a solution for their particular users and groups. Another one that's in the works, we've had a fedora jam audio focused version of fedora for a while and someone has picked that up again and i think especially with the pipe wire stuff you're talking about really want to have fedora be a premier system for doing audio production i think that'll be that'll be pretty neat well we like hearing that yeah yeah definitely i noticed that

image i'm like mental note gonna check that out in a bit. I also noticed a gaming ISO. What's the gaming image? That one hasn't been updated for a little while, but it's kind of an idea about sort of showcasing open source games. So it's not so focused on, you know, the big news, of course, now is, you know, Proton and Steam on Linux and kind of proprietary games. Yeah, but it is nice to remind ourselves, like, there's some really great free games, too. Yeah, and that's kind of what that is meant to show off. In general, I would love for anybody who has, you know, kind of a special interest and thinks

that there would be a particular, you know, focus they could put on the operating system that would showcase something for their users. You know, another one I often give as an example is the Python Classroom Lab, which is meant for teachers teaching how to program in Python. It's going to have an environment you can boot into, and there you go. Everything's all ready for you. That kind of thing. 32 just continues this feeling that I've had for, I think, really since like 28 or 29, and that is that Fedora is

such a great DevOps showcase Linux workstation OS. You know, like the same thing I felt for 2040. It's like, we're so fortunate to have all this great work from all these different projects kind of coming together and landing. And I think it's pretty cool that you guys went ahead and pulled the trigger on the early out of memory killer stuff too. Like that's something else a lot of people aren't moving on. Were you involved in any of the conversations or the maybe pros and con debates on actually doing something that's kind of aggressive like that? That one I watched go by. It seemed like the conversation was going okay. So, you know, sometimes some of these development conversations feel like they are going off the rails or need some intervention.

But I think a lot of times the process just kind of works. There was another example of that that I thought was pretty awesome in this distribution. If you're looking through those Foronix performance results, you'll see that Python in particular is a lot faster. and this is because someone had a suggestion that Python would be a lot faster if it were compiled statically rather than dynamic linking for some technical reasons related to Python, blah, blah, blah, which is cool, but there's a lot of downsides to static linking Python. So kind of the community discussing together came up with an idea of a particular compiler flag, which gives a lot of the benefits with much smaller downsides. You actually can't LD preload things into Python anymore the way we're building

it. But as a result, we get like a 20% performance increase on Python. Wow. That really does feel like a great developer's workstation. I just always notice like KXX already installed a ton of the tools that I have to install on other distributions. Fedora has them right out of the box. Also, I have to give honorable mention. I didn't really do much with it this time around, but Fedora Toolbox, I believe has been transitioned from like a bash project to a go project. And there's some story around that too. Well, the bash was always kind of a prototype. And, you know, once as a sysadmin, you know, once your bash scripts gets to be more than, you know, fits in one screen of your text editor, it's probably time for it to stop being a bash script. Oh, I think Wimpy might disagree. You should see some of his bash scripts. quite a bit in complexity.

So it was time for it to move on to something else. And just a lot of the tooling, you know, Podman and container tooling is written in Go. So Go is a natural ecosystem choice for that. We really should make our pick that bash. Was that bashtop? Is that what it was called? That monstrosity bash script.

There's a bonus app pick for everybody. Go check out bashtop. Well, yeah. And you know what? Fedora Toolbox is very, very handy. So I've talked about it before on the show, but it's just such a quick way to get like an environment where it feels very much like you're on the same box. You're in the same, you can share resources, but you also are able to play in a way that's isolated from the rest of the operating system and you can recreate them and spin them up very fast.

And I just loved it, but I didn't really give it a go this time around because I got the concept, but I appreciate that the work's continuing and the investment's continuing there. It was designed for running on CoreOS and on Silverblue where you have an immutable base OS. On those systems, it's basically vital because you kind of need to have some environment you can mess with. So this gives you that. But it's also really useful just on a standard for our workstation desktop to give you kind of that sandbox space where it's safe to mess it up

and then you can destroy it and create a new one or whatever. Well, especially if you're a bozo like me who's installing 30 different apps a week so he can talk about them on his podcast. Eventually, your system starts to pay for that. So that's what I, when I was running Fedora as my main workstation, I really found that pretty useful. I wonder if I can get Fedora toolbox on Manjaro right now. I bet you can. Something tells me. Oh yeah. Something tells me. Well, cool, man. I mean, I just, I gotta say,

congratulations to you and the entire team. Another great release, and our team installed it and pretty much universally liked it. And we were, you know, message telegramming each other back and forth, like, did you see this? What about that? Yeah, it's very fast, and I'm running on this.

I'm running on this. Okay, I have it in this VM. And I very much concur with Wes. It was pretty performant in all of those situations. It feels like this is the fastest Linux we've ever had. And I know there's some benchmarks that suggest otherwise, but I don't know, man. When you put everything together, when you put the

GNOME shell improvements together, you put even having trim on the SSDs, you put an early out of memory manager on there, plus the improvements like with Python and whatnot, like it all really comes together to a fantastic release of Fedora. Well, thank you.ora well thank you well thank you actually don't thank me i'm thanking you guys please thank the whole team yeah i will

so uh would it be outrageous for me to ask you what the what the uh not so distant future might hold for fedora as far as you're concerned uh more of the same i think continuous releases on on a cadence i'm excited about more of the IoT stuff. Hopefully we'll get some more devices. We've always had some trouble with everybody's favorite Raspberry Pi with upstream support and things like that. And Fedora, we really like to keep everything so that we have one operating system that installs on all devices,

not a separate kernel, not these kind of things. And so that's been a long road. I think that as the ARM device world matures, we'll have more things that Fedora will work out of the box on. And I think there's some neat stuff in Fedora IoT that's coming up. I hope to see some cool stuff around that with Fedora 33. I agree on those points. I do hope to see some more maturity in there. We'll talk, you know, maybe Wes and I will talk about our Rock Pro experiments in the post show.

Yeah. In particular, actually, the Rock Chip stuff has a lot of new support in Fedora 32. So hopefully that should go more smoothly for you. I'm hoping so. We'll find out. Wes Payne will be back with the results in a moment. But before we get there, I just wanted to say thanks. Thanks for coming by, Matt. You know, I know it's probably a super busy time and, you know, probably if you have a little downtime, the last thing you really want to do is jump on the computer and chat with people about it. You'd probably love to just be kicking back and relaxing and having a beer right now. So I appreciate you making the time. I'm going to be back to the Red Hat Summit now. Right, of course. No downtime for you at Summit time, I forgot, of course. Well, thanks for making the time. I really appreciate

it. Be glad to. Bye. And congratulations again. And Wimpy, congratulations again to your team on the release. Thank you for stopping by. And a big plug for the Ubuntu podcast. Go check out the Ubuntu podcast at ubuntupodcast.org. Season 13 is in full swing. Thank you very much. Ubuntu Podcast at ubuntupodcast.org. Season 13 is in full swing. Thank you very much. No, thank you. And those look like some tasty potatoes.

We do make good potatoes. You guys are making me hungry. Oh, yeah. I'm not done podcasting yet. We have a whole post show still. Well, we will see about that, actually. We're getting long. We'll see.

Before we go, I want to mention that this show actually has a Twitter account. If you want to be following, I don't know. Maybe you want to be up to date on new releases. Maybe you want to know when things are live. I don't know. I don't know what you want. It's Linux Unplugged, right? Just at Linux Unplugged? Is that what it is? At Linux Unplugged. That's what it is. You say it like that so I believe you think that's what it is, but I know you're double checking just in case it's not that right now.

You got to do your due diligence. And I'm right. Alright. We'll be live again next Tuesday at noon Pacific and links for everything we talked about at Linux Unplugged slash 351. See you next Tuesday. You and I were doing kind of concurrent projects before the show started because our Mumble server was down. And so I was kind of keeping the live stream up to date and chatting with the Mumble admins who are wonderful people. truly just the best people on the earth that took care of a little outage we had right before the show which you know clearly our virtual lug is such a huge part of this podcast so the fact that we were possibly going to be without mumble i was slightly panicked so mit free jumped in on it and

got the system back up and running and we were able to keep going so saved the show while we were kind of doing all of that you were out out in the server room, a.k.a. studio garage, and you were messing around with the Rock Pro 64 we have out there and Fedora images. Now, the thing is, is I didn't get a chance to see if it actually ended up working or not. So how far did you get with Fedora 32 on the Rock Pro? Not quite. You know, we're still learning our way around that thing. True. That's for sure. And it seems like occasionally when we reboot it, it needs a little cool down period before it's ready to try booting up again. Like fully unplugged.

Yeah. And that's something that I'm not sure if other people experience, but we have to kind of like leave it unplugged or else it won't post again properly, it seems. Only after a failed boot. You know, we can reboot it like from the command line and it comes right back up. Totally fine. So that's not a problem. Yeah. and reboot it from the command line, and it comes right back up. So that's not a problem. So based on my limited knowledge in deciphering,

while the Manjaro image that we used as a test booted up just fine, neither of the two Fedora images I found were able to do so. Okay, and that's just from the SD card? Yeah, and these are just the ones put out on the alternative downloads page from today. So I don't know that they've been optimized for anything but the processors, and so there may need to be some bootloader work, et cetera, done to actually get it loaded and working. As they say in your Zoom meetings,

we're going to circle back on that topic and put a pin in it and see if we can't sink on a solution and then maybe bring some other stakeholders in and verify the results. Oh my God, Chris.