LINUX Unplugged - 368: The Best is Yet to Come

Episode Date: August 26, 2020

It's a new day for Jupiter Broadcasting and the show, we share our big news. Plus our plan to help make a difference in free software, and we reunite with some old friends. Chapters: 0:00 Pre-Show 0:42 Intro 1:08 SPONSOR: A Cloud Guru 2:59 Arch Update 4:13 Big News for Jupiter Broadcasting 6:58 Coder Radio Returns 8:08 Linux Action News Returns 9:45 The Future of Jupiter Broadcasting 10:23 Unplugged Core Contributors 15:01 Arch Update Part 2 16:49 Housekeeping 18:20 Arch Update Part 3 19:05 Bug Squashers Assemble 24:11 Fedora 33 Test Week 28:27 Fedora IoT 33:51 Pick: FetchCord 34:50 Wimpy's Discord Plea 37:14 Arch Update Part 4 38:16 Pick: Chowdown 40:59 Catching Up with Mike 52:21 Catching Up with Joe 54:30 Catching Up with Wimpy 1:01:19 Outro 1:03:34 Post-Show Special Guests: Alan Pope, Alex Kretzschmar, Drew DeVore, Joe Ressington, Martin Wimpress, and Neal Gompa.

It's going to be a special episode, but it's almost too perfect that it was on August 25th, 1991, that Linus Torvalds, at the age of 21, announced the Linux project on Usenet. And we'll have a link to the original email in the show notes. I think everybody's probably seen this one before where he talks about it being a no big deal OS. Only a 386 OS won't ever take advantage of things like SCSI. It's just, it's sort of a perfect moment on August 25th. Let's hope it never gets big and professional.

Just a few years later, right? Hello, friends, and welcome to 368 of your weekly Linux talk show. My name is Chris. My name is Wes. Hello, Wes. Good to be connected with you. Huge show today. Nice to have you in our recording space for a very special episode.

I see you spruced up in here. Yeah, thank you. Thank you for noticing. You know, I put a lot of work into that. You sure did. Also, I like that you wore a hat. I don't know if a birthday hat is the right style, but I like the intention there. We have a huge show today.

I also want to start by saying thank you to a cloud guru for sponsoring this episode of Linux Unplugged. Cloud guru is the leader in learning for cloud, Linux, and other modern tech skills. Hundreds of courses and thousands of hands-on labs. Get certified, get hired, and get learning. Go to acloudguru.com and thanks to them for sponsoring the Unplugged program. Now we have some big news to get into. We have a fun initiative we're launching, some follow-up stuff, but maybe even more special. I should sit down for this one. We have a huge showing in the Mumble Room. Time appropriate. Greetings, Virtual Lug. Hello. Hello. Mumble Overload.

That really was. I got to bring that down just a little bit there. That was a lot. We have the return of a bunch of friends. Popey, Wimpy, it is great to see you gentlemen. Hello guys. It's been far too long. Great to have you back. Hello. Lovely to be here. Hello. Hello. Hello to everybody in the mumble room. We'll get there in a moment, but I also want to say a special hello to Drew, Alex, and Mr. Joe Resington. Hello. Hello. Good afternoon. I'm back. Hello everybody. So we have so much to get into, but we had one more special guest that snuck in

just before we got started. So I also have to say a big special hello to Mr. Michael Dominick. Hello, Mike. Hello, hippies. Hello. Hello. Hello, sir. Good to have you here, too. We have some things to cover you and me as well. How you doing, Wes? Oh, boy. I'm excited. You know, you and I were talking before the show and we thought this is a special day and it's not often we make the news about ourselves. So that way it's not just about our big news. We have a couple of things in the second

half of the show that I think you guys are really going to be interested in. But like the Arch users we are, before we do any of that, Wes, it's time to see if we can update the Jupyter Broadcasting file server. It's been since the last time we did it on the show, I think, right? That's a yes. It's been a little too long. So our commitment to you right here on the show is to try to do a live update. Wes Payne, are you ready to update one of the most important servers for Jupyter Broadcasting live on the air?

Let's do it. We can't have downtime. We can't, no. Wes, don't do it. The last time I was on this podcast, you were doing this, and that was blooming months ago. It's like last year. I know, it's pretty great. It is pretty great. Are you ready? You ready to start? Yeah, let's do it. Is it a big one? Oh, decent size. Oh, hey, we's pretty great. It is pretty great. Are you ready to start?

Yeah, let's do it. Is it a big one? Oh, decent size. Oh, hey, we're upgrading Docker. We don't use that for anything. What about your ZFS there? What about your ZFS? Oh, let's see.

Oh, yep, we got a new kernel, so we'll have that coming down too. All right, so this is going to be one of those download and build. So we'll let that go in the background, and then we'll continue on with the rest of our show. Check in later. I have a good feeling about it. I think it'll be just fine. I really do. Oh yeah, of course. Fake Nance can do it. But that's probably all the stalling I can do. I have some really big news to share with everyone. You know, I've been podcasting. This is unbelievable and I thought it can't actually be true, but I checked. I've been podcasting for 15 years nonstop. That's amazing. What I'm about to share with you is probably the biggest project

I've ever worked on in that 15 years. It's one of those projects that I hope sets the foundation for myself personally, for Jupyter Broadcasting, and these podcasts for the rest of my life. A Cloud Guru and Jupyter Broadcasting have made the mutual decision to separate and restore Jupyter Broadcasting's independent media status. The demerger will allow for Jupyter Broadcasting and a Cloud Guru to dedicate their resources and specialize in the content they do best. Jupyter Broadcasting and creating Linux and open source podcast content cater to enthusiasts and industry professionals, and a cloud guru in

creating comprehensive and hands-on multi-cloud computing, Linux, and DevOps training for businesses and individuals. A cloud guru and Jupiter Broadcasting share many commonalities, such as the passion we have for our respective missions and the investment we make in creating accessible, accurate, and engaging content that makes a difference to our audience. We also share a belief in the importance of giving back to the open source community. As such, a cloud guru will continue

its support of Jupyter Broadcasting with a sponsorship arrangement, and we will continue to explore future content collaboration opportunities. There you have it. It's official. I'm looking forward to the future. A new era.

We'll be working together in a new era. Jupiter Broadcasting and the productions are independent on their own company again. We have a little Vic Fontaine to celebrate. company again? We have a little Vic Fontaine to celebrate. You came along and everything started to hum. Still

it's a real good bet the best is yet to come. The best is yet to come and babe, won't it be fine? Mr. Wes Payne is going to pour us a couple of drinks to celebrate So we may be under the influence A little more than that, Wes So I'm very excited

A Cloud Guru has a lot in the pipeline And Jupiter Broadcasting has a whole bunch in the pipeline. There's things that are in the background that are getting worked on, but there's a couple of things that are happening pretty much right now. Let's start with the first thing that's happening. In just a few minutes as we're recording this, Coder Radio returns to the air with its first episode landing. And Mike, I don't think you and I could be more excited. We are like so full pumped about doing this. It's you and myself again with dragging Wes in as much as we can.

Hey, yo. And the show's back. It's back. It's a party Jar Jar style. It's full Jar Jar style. And we're going to do it live, I think. Right. We decided we want to go ahead and do it live, which, you know, should be fun.

We don't have as many live shows anymore, but I think that should be fun. And it's just back where it always was, Coder.show. And you can subscribe. And the new one will be out in about 15 minutes as I record this. Same feed and everything, I think, right? Yep, same feeds. So if you never unsubscribe, it'll be right there for you. So that's pretty exciting.

And I don't know. We have much more to say than that, Mike. Like people know Coder. It's been around forever. So same classic flavor, new label. Yeah, we updated. Actually, the label is the same. Yeah, we kept the logo.

That's right. I see it's gluten free now. Yeah, that's what we did. We made it gluten free. So that's great. Mike's also going to be joining us on Self-Hosted this week. So keep an eye out for that. And then the other thing that I'm very excited to announce right now is that Linux Action News will return in September. And Joe and I are already starting to work on that.

And, Joe, you're not thrilled at all about it. No, because you're making me work on Sunday again. It's like, what, five months or whatever with no working on my Sundays. Yeah, yeah, I know. I know. But we looked at it and we felt like LAN is the show that does the due diligence. It does the work. So it kind of has a special place in Linux media. We didn't really have a voice in that sort of area. Headlines served us super, super well. And so, Drew, hats off to you for just banging Headlines out. You really owned that and took it. Thank you. Thank you.

So Headlines is remaining with the Cloud Guru. And I don't know if they're continuing production or not. That's going to be their decision. Now that we kind of will have that hole in our lineup, it makes a lot of sense to restart Linux Action News. Oh, yeah. And of course, for me, it has a special place because it is born from Linux Action Show.

And so to me, it's a sentimental show for me. It's the continuation. Yeah. And so I'm really happy that I'll be back. We're currently aiming, should we say, September 7th for the first episode back? Yeah, I think that's the first. Yeah, well, sort of 6th, 7th, depending on where you are, if you're in the UK or in America. But yeah, that's Sunday slash Monday.

Oh, I'm excited. How's your update going over there, Wes? Oh, it's going well. Is it? We're rebuilding the Innit Ramah Fest right now. Now, we're not done. We got to do the AUR updates next. Do we? I think we should. So I just want to take a moment with our friends here and say thank you to everyone for your support over the last couple of years and for being there now, helping make this possible.

You guys have really made the difference and just a big, huge amount of appreciation for everyone. And I'm excited about where JB goes from here. It does mean this becomes a business again, and the business has to survive. I've learned a lot of lessons in this process, and I've learned how important that is for the product. The product is very important, and if that's what sustains the business, you put everything into the product. With that in mind, we're launching something called the Unplugged Core Contributors. It's a membership for the Linux Unplugged program. And I'm launching it today.

You can get it at unpluggedcore.com. If you use the promo code founder, you'll get $2 off the monthly cost indefinitely. It's only available for the first 100 subscribers. There will also be a link at the top of the show notes, but you can go to unpluggedcore.com. Now, why? Why a membership for Linux Unplugged? Well, let me just say, I have learned a lot, and my intention with this membership is primarily two things. Number one, keep Linux Unplugged as independent as long as I draw breath.

Number two, help reduce ad load needed to make the show profitable so we can keep producing. So membership will offset ad load. There will be ads, but it will help offset how many ads are required. Now, as a perk of being a member, when you become a core contributor, you also get access to two RSS feeds. The first is an ad-free version of the show. Same full production, just there will be no ads. Wonder where you got that idea from, eh? Who could have thought of that?

And if that's your preference, you know, as Joe offers that for Late Night Linux, and he has a Patreon perk, and it's, for some people, they don't want any ads, and it's a great option. You still get the full, high-quality for some people, they don't want any ads. And it's a great option. You still get the full, high-quality produced episode. It just doesn't have any ads. Or if you're like me, you're just too lazy and forget to listen to the ad-free version.

But it's a great way to support, too. That's true. Now, there's a second feed option when you become a core contributor. You can get the full live stream. All of our screw-ups, the stuff that never makes it into the show, the full pre- and post-shows, which are much, much, much longer than we'll make into the show, it's basically the extra show that never gets released. So you have two options, ad-free or the full bootleg, which has everything in it,

including our pre- and post-show chatter that is, you know, maybe sometimes we'll cut a selection of that and put it on the end or the beginning and the end of Unplugged. This is everything. So promo code founder for the first 100 subscribers. It's $8 a month. You use that promo code founder. It'll kick it down to $6 a month indefinitely. Unpluggedcore.com.

Help keep us independent and help reduce the ad load needed. I may consider rolling this out for other shows as well. I may consider rolling this out for other shows as well. I think you guys have heard me get on my soapbox before and talk about how important I think it is for a creator to be funded by the audience. It changes the way you think about the content that you're making. It's a game-changing way to think about it. You don't think about it from grabs and clicks and emotions

and getting the biggest number for advertisers. You think about it from a standpoint of what would make that handful of members happy. And it is a much more genuine way to produce content. And in my 15 years of production, I can tell you I have learned to walk the line with ad-supported media, with company- supported media, and with member-supported media. But if you were to ask me to pick one model, it would be 100% member-funded. It's not possible, especially in today's climate, especially because I'm trying to make this a full-time sustainable job, but member support does go a long way and it does help reduce the amount of ads. It's a great way to be invested

in the content here. Yeah. I mean, that's why we're doing it, right? We have a track record here. So it's an investment I think you can count on. You know that that money is going to go towards producing a show that can go through something like a merger and a demerger and stay genuine and true to itself and answering to its audience. That's what you're investing in, plus my 15 years of nonstop podcasting track record. We'll have links in the show notes, or you can go to unpluggedcore.com and use the promo code founder for the first 100 subs after 100 it will be full price again but i appreciate either way and don't forget after you subscribe you get two feed choices and you can subscribe to that in your podcatcher of choice and then it just shows up in your podcast catcher like every single week one thing is nice about the full live stream it's definitely

not as well produced it's way longer but we're really going to shoot to try to get it out as quick as reasonably possible. So it's if you like the show right away or maybe if you're often a live stream member, but you didn't make it and you can get that feed and you'll get it as quick as we can turn it around. The next best thing to be in here live. So I'm very excited. I hope we get some support here because obviously it's early days and I have to make decisions about advertisers and how many to take on. And I hope that this resonates with you as the audience, especially maybe some of those of you've been listening for a while and you know what this show does. You know what we're made of. Unpluggedcore.com. How are you doing over there, Mr. West? Are you ready for an update?

Well, I've just rebooted. Let's see if it comes back up. Updates are done. No issues. All right. Are you pinging it right now? I'm just about to. I'm going to have my first Salvatore drink.

I didn't think that would actually work, but it's already pinging. That's a good sign. I maintain, I think, one of the smart things we did here. And they were just talking about this in Two and a half admins in the latest episode, Jim and Alan were talking about some reasons maybe not to use ZFS en route under Linux. And I agree completely with their take on it. And I think this is sort of proving that out too. Like, even if something goes wrong, worst cases, our pool just doesn't mount,

but our OS will boot. That is nice. Uh-oh. What is it? SSH isn't up yet but our OS will boot. Right. That is nice. Uh-oh. What is it? SSH isn't up yet. You're teasing me. You're teasing me. Come on, Wes. We might have to go check on it.

We're going to have to do a console run during the show? I think so. How are we going to do that? We don't have a wireless mic. We should, though. We'll take a really long XLR cord out to the garage. I do have mumble on my phone. Crap.

I didn't want to say I told you so, but, you know. Damn it, Wimpy. No, Wimpy, no. No, it's going to be fine. Don't you worry about it. Don't you? It's going to be fine. I have faith in Wes.

I'm sure he can recover the firestorm that is happening right now. I do, too. He does look a little nervous. Oh, no, it'll be fine. Oh, that's never a good look for us. I know. I know. Like, it doesn't happen.

Not much makes him nervous, so. Oh, oh. Ooh, some progress. Okay. It might just be being slow. We'll see. It didn't immediately reject me trying to SSH, so. Okay.

So now you're just getting, like, the delay thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that does. All right. We'll come back after this housekeeping break. How about that? You ready?

Should we do a little housekeeping and we'll see how it does? Now, I have a special housekeeping this week. If anyone out there is looking for a very talented full-time audio editor, mixer, or master, or a very savvy sysadmin with 20 years of experience, let Drew know. Drew is looking for work as part of this transition. His role is no longer available at a Cloud Guru. And he'll be looking, starting right now, for work. He's still working with us. He's still here.

But Drew, this is sort of, you didn't ask me to do this, but I wanted to get this out there for you. Where could people get a hold of if they're looking for a killer sysadmin or an amazing audio guy? Yeah, I appreciate it. I am, of course, on Twitter at Drew of Doom. I'll make sure that there's a link to my LinkedIn in the show notes. Also, I've got an episode coming out. I was on the podcast engineering show a few weeks back, and that episode comes out on the 27th. So when that's

live, I'll get that in the show notes too. There you go. Oh, I'm looking forward to that. LinkedIn profile in the show notes, like he mentioned at linuxunplugged.com slash 368. I can vouch for this guy, either doing your sysadmin work or making you sound amazing. Drew is the guy for the job. No kidding. Yep. But the most important thing is he's not going to make me stay up till four o'clock in the morning on Tuesday nights because he's going to keep editing this show. That's true. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. I'm not going anywhere as far as this community is concerned. We're so lucky to have you. We heart you, Drew. We heart you. I heart you too. That is our housekeeping there. Was that enough time for you, Wes, to get into the, were you able to get a shell?

No. Oh, no. And it's not pinging anymore. It is proper screwed. This hasn't happened yet. Now, I will say I was a little cavalier. I didn't do a whole lot of checks. I thought, you know, let's try this as the casual admin.

You just run your updates. The updates went well. You reboot. Oh, God. That's why we did this, right? Oh, God. I got so much to do. All right.

Well, I mean, do you want to make a cart crash run while I, I mean, because we got to get it back up, right? I mean, this is going to happen now. We got to get it back up. I mean, because we've got to get it back up, right? I mean, that's what's got to happen now is we've got to get it back up. I wanted to get some take from the Mumble Room on an idea that I'm percolating on that I'd like to get the audience's help with. I've been trying to think of ways that we could improve the quality of life for Linux users, make a difference in projects, maybe help catch bugs before major releases. And I was toying with this idea of a bug-a-thon, something that would be scheduled ahead of time. We'd give plenty of heads up to the audience and we'd essentially pull together

a live stream event where we're helping coordinate the group testing of, say, a distro before its next release or a project before their next release, try to line it up with their own internal project testing windows and release windows. So that way we're contributing at the right time for the project, try to mentor and work with people that are attending the live stream to properly do bug reports, format them, give them enough information, go through that process with people, maybe put it up on the screen and show them a bug report and try to take like a concentrated couple of hours on the JB Live stream with the audience and focus all of our attention at one thing. And as I was experimenting with this idea in my noggin, I thought, wouldn't it be interesting to try this with Fedora 33? Because not only are they

cramming a bunch of new stuff into Fedora 33, but as we've talked about a lot on this show, it will also be the first Fedora that switches to ButterFS as its default file system. Just a small change. A lot of eyes are going to be on that change, Wes. Yeah. And maybe we could do our part to help test it before it gets released to the public. Maybe we could catch something as a group, something that's organized.

And I've created a bug-a-thon room on the new Jupyter Broadcasting Matrix. So we could start coordinating there. And I'm hoping maybe the LUP blog could help me with some of the details as well. But what I'm trying to get to is something in the end that is useful for projects and maybe distro maintainers. Because, and Wimpy, this is one thing

I was going to kind of pick your brain is, maybe I'm too cynical, but I think a lot of times what ends up happening is we just overburden developers that already have too much on their plate with a whole bunch of bug reports or problems that aren't really in the right channel or don't really provide enough context or information for them to do anything. And it's almost like we make the problem worse for them. There's two sides to that, right? There is the bug report that says, insert name of application doesn't work for me. It crashes, which is of no use to anybody. And then there's the bug report that comes from somebody who is trying to help solve the problem and does the initial steps of triage now this is all complicated stuff because you have to as you say have to file the bug in the right place to

draw attention to the right people but i tell you what i mean i know frank is in here listening to this as well this is manna from heaven right if you're prepared to try and corral the jb community around these sort of um release critical periods to do some well-focused testing and bug reporting bring it on that's just fabulous because for know, all of those bug reports that are of quality and we can action. Yes, there will be some that we can't do much with, but high quality bug reporting can't get enough of that stuff. That's great. I'm liking your take on it. I was worried, you know, I don't want to create a bigger problem.

And I think sometimes our good intentions do that. And I also want to do something that's substantive. Do you know what don't want to create a bigger problem and i think sometimes our good intentions do that and i also want to do something that's substantive do you know what i mean like something that actually could help one of the places where it may help before i mean i know you're going to talk to neil about this stuff and his take on the fedora community may be different from mine right but one of the places where you can start to help right now before we even get into, you know, it's nearly release and we need to report things is improving documentation around how you report things. Right. You know, how do you actually file a quality bug? Checking that all of that information is ready for that group of people to come into that process and actually make a meaningful impact in the QA process. Yeah, right. Lower the barriers to entry, just make it as smooth as can be. Right. Brent, I think there's an opportunity here too, to just encourage people to learn how to,

how this process works and maybe they do it on their own afterwards. You know, some of us have been lucky enough to know some of the people that work on the software that we use. So we've been able to just, I don't know, send bugs over telegram. I do that every once in a while. But one thing I've always wanted to know is how to write a really great bug report from the developer's perspective. And so I think if we're able to share that knowledge and create a bit of a bug squashing army, that's a legacy that'll just continue. You'll have a lot of people, you know, five, 10 years from now that are creating helpful bug reports that

might be super helpful in lots of communities. Wouldn't that be a great knock-on effect? So, Neil, I'm curious to know what your take is and specifically how we could help the Fedora community. Before you jump in, I noted that Fedora 33 has a test week and one of the last days of the test week lands on a LUP day. And I was thinking we would sort of target this for that test week for Fedora 33. That sounds great. I mean, as Wimpy said earlier about making quality bug reports, I completely agree that that is definitely an aspect that could be improved here. And in the Fedora context, we have tools like our tools that are for bug reporting in general, when crashes happen and stuff like that already tries to guide people to tell us the right things for being able to

reproduce a bug or do something with it. And we've got automation on the back end to replay the crash and do stuff like that. That's all well and good. What we don't really have, and this is probably something where, you know, if we just solicit some feedback from developer types who are actually working on the software, what kind of information would be useful

just in general for non-crash type bug reports? Because like there's a whole variety of bug types. There's the, well, it just broke. And then there's the, well, this did something slightly unexpected, but didn't fail. And the latter case is actually the much harder one. I have tons of those bug reports in my own queue for the projects that I'm one of the developers for. And it's really hard because people don't give enough information for me to do anything with it.

And in a lot of cases, by the time I can get around to ask for the information, they either have kind of moved past it and forgotten about it or just don't think that giving more information is useful or necessary. And sometimes, even in worst cases, they're rude about it. So I think setting a better set of base expectations of what makes a useful bug report helps. And I think also having the ability for people to realize that there's things that need to be evaluated and, and, and tested and, and, and, you know, kind of beaten in to make sure that it works well,

you know, as a distro release is being developed, like Ubuntu 2010, which is coming up Fedora 33 and so on. Like as those are coming, all of these distros that do scheduled releases often have periods in which you can help and they have documentation for how you can help make it a better release by testing and reporting and even, you know, here and there, like working with developers and stuff like that.

Yeah. It just sort of depends. Neil makes a good point there, which is that the urgency with which people are reporting issues doesn't necessarily align with the priorities of the developers that are receiving those bug reports. That doesn't mean we don't care. It just means that we're busy and we have a priority order in which we can address things. So it's a bit like being in an IRC channel. If you're the kind of person that joins a free node channel and then immediately demands assistance

and then immediately after asking for assistance loses interest and then leaves, that's not helpful conversation in IRC. In the same way that if you file a bug report, make it a bug report that you actually care about and you're not just being frustrated on that day because it might be that weeks or months later, those developers are coming round to a collection of issues that circulate around a thing that you've identified and other people have as well. And they're trying to collate information around the issue that you've reported.

Do expect that sometimes you may get a response within minutes or hours, and sometimes it may be weeks or months later that somebody comes back to you asking for more information or wanting to follow up on what you've reported. Fedora 33 caught my attention because of the high profile nature of all the

changes they're all pretty big one of the things that's coming down the pipe for fedora 33 is they're doing now an iot edition which um not shocking there that not really a surprise to see that this is coming in fact i kind of i wondered if this was maybe one of those things that they resisted but maybe customers asking for it kind of made the start. As one might expect, it's meant to be deployed on devices that are used in the Internet of Things, from small, silly devices to production equipment. You got to put quotes around that. It's the Internet of Things. Yes, right.

They have a product requirement document, and in there it states that Fedora is the default platform in the IoT space. Anyone starting an IoT project from cute embedded hacks all the way up to multimillion device deployments will start with Fedora is the default platform in the IoT space. Anyone starting an IoT project from cute embedded hacks all the way up to multi-million device deployments will start with Fedora. It's going to be available on x86 and ARM64 architectures. It's pretty small. I mean, maybe not tiny, but it requires like three gigs of disk space and runs within one gig of RAM, at least if you're not doing anything anyway. You want to adjust to a new way of managing packages, though. One does not just run DNF install on a Fedora IoT system.

No, no. This distribution instead is using RPM OS tree. Oh, yes. You know RPM OS tree. It's built around the concept of an immutable base image, perhaps augmented by one or more overlay images, the running system is never modified by the package management operations like installations or system upgrades.

Instead, RPM OS tree maintains a set of parallel system images, two of them by default. The running image is immutable and any package management operation will instead apply to the next image in the series. So for example, if you were administrator on one of these boxes and you want to install, say, Nano, that package will go into the alternative image and the action will not actually yield a usable Nano command at first.

Got to have Nano. Oh, gosh. Of course you're installing Nano. It's got a new release out, Wes. New version. Probably Nano. It's got a new release out, Wes. New version.

Now, of course, the idea behind this mechanism is to make system updates safer, which especially you want if, you know, you've got an Internet of Things device that's deployed somewhere out in the field and it's hard to get to. Since the update is applied to the idle image, it can't break the running system, even if it's interrupted at an especially inopportune time, which, Chris, as you know, seems to happen a lot with updates. We could have used that today. It's also nice for an IoT device is it's really easy to implement

a factory reset operation with this type of file system approach. You know, hold down a button and it goes back to the original image. Roll back. And it reboots. There's other takes at an IoT device image. The thing that made this stand out to me

is interesting for those of you who like Fedora is apparently they are opting out of the normal release cycle for the IoT edition. Instead, the project has committed to producing a rolling release with monthly updates.

With RPM OS 3 configured to pull down updates automatically, hopefully IoT systems can be kept up to date with minimal effort. And if it goes bad, well, roll back. This reminds me when we started seeing Ubuntu Core and people wanted to build desktops. You know, as soon as I see that, I'm like, well, now I want to make it a desktop.

Such an idiot. That's my first thought. And yet soon it'll be running in the studio. I guess they just, they wanted to put everything into this 33 release. So it just seemed like a good one to test. It seemed like this is something that we could apply to other projects as well. And Minimac, you could see how the virtual lug could kind of get in on some of this, do virtual install sessions and stuff like that.

I would love to see that. You know, we have really a good crowd now every Sunday. And wouldn't it be cool to have like an install and testing party? We could even have a separate room and we could even record that session and just have a mumble recording. Wow. Or you could use Discord, you know, upgrade to the 21st century. There it is. Oh, geez. But the matrix is fine, too. You know, come on. Oh, my God. It's too much already. Let's build a bridge to everything.

So here's what I'm thinking specifically for Fedora 33 is September 8th for Linux Unplugged. After that week's Linux Unplugged, let's all just, whoever wants to join us, stay here. So come for Linux Unplugged and stay, and we will do the bug smashing bug-a-thon session. And we'll try to get some guidance on best practices to pass forward for bug submitting and stuff like that. Maybe bring a computer you want to install Fedora on.

Yeah, bring a computer you can wipe, and we'd love to get some testing on the PodRFS stuff. And we'll just sit here as a group, and we'll just try to bang this out. And if it is successful, if it produces something of use, I think we'll keep working at that model and see if we can apply it to other stuff. So September 8th will be the date. It'll be after Linux unplugged. It'll be the Bugathon Live, and we're coordinating in a room on Matrix called Bugathon on the Jupyter Broadcasting Matrix server. So this

will be good because the beta for Fedora comes around September 15th, and then they have a backup date to the 22nd because maybe they might not make the 15th. There's a lot going on. It gives us a chance to finally get this stuff in before the beta lands. And then, you know, do another round of testing.

So that'll be the plan. I'll remind you about it in the future, but that'll be kind of the plan. This should be fun. I'm excited. And I'm just excited for Fedora 33, because Fedora's great. Yeah. Come check out the virtual lug, too. We do that every Sunday at noon Pacific time.

And you can just join the Mble lobby and hang out in there. And of course there's a matrix room too. That's right. You know, Wimpy, I do have a special discord pick for you because I knew you'd be here this week. Okay.

Lay it on me. I'm all about the discord these days. So listener Dylan wrote in and he said, I'm a big fan of the show. I've been a dedicated listener since I found Linux seven months ago. He likes to listen on the road. Oh, and he loves a good old-fashioned Arch update. So I'll have to come back to that for him in a moment.

But he says, I'm contacting you today in hopes of having a cool piece of software my friends made highlighted on the show. It's called FetchCord. Its main purpose is to display your OS in a rich presence way on Discord. So it gives you like a rich display for your Discord based on your OS. It's kind of like NeoFetch for Discord. So it's called FetchCord. Oh, that's fun. Right.

So like how it can, you know, it'll show information about what you're running, what your system is. Isn't that neat? So we'll have a link to that. It's FetchCord on Mr. Potato Box's or Bob, Mr. Potato Bob Box. Yeah. Okay. That Bob box. Yeah. Okay. That's awesome.

Yeah. Isn't that great? So that's for you. That's, that's for you. Thank you for catering to the current generation. And maybe in a few weeks from now, you'll realize the errors of your way. And you'll bring your community over to, you know, a modern communication platform as well. Oh no.

I'm actually laughing out loud. I feel attacked. I'm actually laughing out loud at this. I feel attacked. I feel totally attacked right now. I'd just like to point out at this point that Self Hosted has a Discord. There you go. That's true. Right.

Also, Neil, back in your box, you and I both played Fall Guys on Linux. You on Fedora, me on Ubuntu. And how did we communicate that evening? Yes, through Discord. It was actually a lot of fun. End of conversation. Hey, I only just felt that.

I only just said that because I've been needling Chris for like almost two years now to set up a Matrix server. Yeah, but that was, you started that conversation two years ago. Two years has elapsed. The world has moved on. Matrix is a science project. It's wonderful, but you know, it years has elapsed. The world has moved on. Matrix is a science project. It's wonderful, but, you know, it's not for everyday people. And we need to be inviting everyday people into our world.

Daryl, give us the awkward fact that's hanging in the room here. Well, JB does have its own Discord server set up. It's just there's no one in there. Hey, I'm in there. Yeah, I am too. I think. I just check it from time to time. You know you know you might be right wimpy that's why it hurts because you might be a little right but we'll see wimpy you are the voice of reason once again wimpy this is this is why the good developers

invented bridges my friends i'll just bridge that discord it'll be fine no but that's the worst thing ever because then that's the worst of both worlds, right? You're neither one thing nor the other. You're not backing one platform or the other. Or a disgusting hybrid. Pick something. But if you pick matrix, don't expect audience expansion. Pick discord, the fastest growing messaging platform in the world. Expect audience expansion. I agree just because I have an unfiltered Discord as well.

So we have a self-hosted Discord and an unfiltered Discord, and they're both very successful. I guess it all means I have to figure out why it keeps crashing on my Linux desktop. I mean, the thing is, maybe Matrix is sort of like the back end, and then you can have these front ends that are Telegram and Discord and IRC,

and people can use whatever they want. I don't know, maybe not. Maybe it won't work out, but I'm launching on the grand experiment. Hopefully Google will just make another type of chat and then we can we'll just use that one. Oh my goodness. Oh jeez, not again. Alright, Wes Payne.

Let's see how that server's doing. Actually, it's doing great. What? Yeah. Totally. So it stopped pinging and then it started pinging again and it's running fine. All? Yeah, totally. So it stopped pinging, and then it started pinging again, and it's running fine. All our containers are up. Well done. Well done.

So why do you think it took so long to come back online? Was it checking some disk or something? That we will have to investigate. Yeah, that'll be something for after the show. Now we are on kernel, what was it? 5.8? 5.8, okay. It's fine.

I mean, 5.9 is almost out, so we better update soon, obviously. Can't have an old kernel on our server. Well, before we go any further, Wes, good job. I feel like you get an applause for that. I didn't do anything. It was our minimalist design, ButterFS on the root file system, keeping ZFS for the big data pool. And it turns out Arch sometimes works.

Yeah, sometimes. Sometimes it works. Now, we have a cool pick that Alex found for us today because we all love to eat. If you've listened to the bootleg stream, you know how much we love to eat. So tell us about Chowdown. Chowdown, indeed. It's a self-hosted recipe manager. to the bootleg stream you know how much we love to eat so tell us about chow down chow down indeed

it's a self-hosted recipe manager stores your recipes in plain text using the schema so i don't know if you knew this but there is a recipe schema over at schema.org and this chow down application actually stores your recipes in plain text and you can run it out of a container and has a nice little web interface with some search so when you want to bring it up on the ipad whilst you're frying up some steaks or something works really really nicely hmm it looks pretty too i like it i'm liking this display system where they i mean you got to take pictures of your stuff sounds like alex you've actually been using it too i have indeed yeah for probably about three or four months ever since chris convinced me to buy one of those barbecue

ceramic egg things right i wanted a way to kind of record what worked and what didn't on particular cooks and stuff so what i use it for is is i have a brisket recipe and then i put some notes underneath the brisket rub or whatever i did that particular time and said I like this about it and I did it you know these timings and it came out a little bit too dry and then I have these things in plain text forever so the next time I'm planning to do a big cook or something I've got that all there alongside the recipe as well. Yeah I like that you can check stuff off like individual ingredients and steps of the directions too. The display is really clean. Yeah, now one thing worth looking at is in the GitHub, the author Clark Lab, I think his name is,

he's actually proposing a complete redesign of the web interface of the UI. So currently it's this blue thing with pictures, and I quite like it to be honest. But the web interface is going to be rethemed as red, and he's rewriting some of the backend and stuff. So if you want to be part of that process, he's actively looking for feedback at the moment on the new proposed UI. So head over to GitHub and let him know what you think. Very cool.

We'll have a link to that in the show notes. Thank you, Alex. Thank you for your perfect pick. Right on theme. For the co-host of Self Hosted, check out selfhosted.show for more of that. My mom has a quick question about how she fires up a container with her recipes in it. Okay. It's Tupperware.

Who said Tupperware? That was blue ingenious. All right. Fair point. Yeah. Put it in the microwave, crack the lid, and then you're done. Don't forget to burp the container. Maybe sprinkle a little water on there. Yeah, what does constitute burping a container in modern parlance?

Is that when you bring it down and restart it? That's burping it? You've got to rebuild it to get the B in there, right? Well, let's go around the horn and see what folks are working on. Mr. Dominic, I know predominantly nothing more important in your life at all than Coder Radio, of course. But what else is going on for you? I'm ashamed to say I'm a full-time Linux user now. Welcome. Wow.

Took long enough. Bienvenidos. I still haven't exactly decided Snap or Flatpak. And so I would like to put that to you guys. Why not both? Hey, Neil speaks the truth, right? Why not both? I mean, you're more of an app image guy. That's just what I think. We have standards around here, right?

We do get into this a little bit in the most recent Coder Radio. I'm on board with this change. I support this. You know, I think you've been flirting with it for a long time. How much do you think it was distro versus you just settling into something? I think I'm lazy, as people would know. And the ability just to buy, you know, a Thalia or like whatever the name of the laptop is pre-installed driver's work. I don't have to really care about anything was the solution. Also, Apple's OS is getting crazier, right? I had a lot of issues with Catalina and Big Sur, not trying to diss anybody, but- You and the rest of the internet.

Right. It kind of looks like Fisher-Price. I'm really interested in this. Is it aesthetics or is there something, you know, fundamental from a developer's perspective that you're unhappy with? Yeah. So I think the biggest change was I'm not doing a ton of iOS work. I'm doing a ton of like embedded Linux work and mostly like Python on the server now. So I ended up running a bunch of like Ubuntu VMs anyway on a Mac computer, which was kind of silly. Also you and the rest of the internet. Right. So at some point it's like, why not just run it, you know, natively on the hardware? Thank you.

That's what I wonder if that does seem like, even with WSL and virtualization on Mac arm, at a certain point, it is just a little bit simpler. There's less things in the middle. Right. If it works for you, if it meets your needs for, you know, for development, whatever you need. Yeah. Why not? The disadvantage that Apple has that makes it easier for,

you know, these kinds of transitions of like, you're running a whole bunch of Linux Linux VMs and then you're like, well, why do I have Mac OS? Is that if you decide to make that change, you wind up actually saving money, right? Because you can make that calculation and see that there is an actual tangible benefit across the board. an actual tangible benefit across the board. You don't necessarily get that same calculation when you go from saying Windows with WSL to Linux on the computer, unless you get a computer with Linux pre-installed. And I think this is what's just been said about how Linux being pre-installed was just the thing was like, this is, it all works. Everything's fine. I'm just going to kind of roll with it. That is the thing we've been missing for nearly 20 years. And now that we're starting to have that for real in a big way, like with system 76 and tuxedo and now Lenovo and Dell and so on, like having these things there makes a huge difference. It does, but they've been around for a decade. Maybe I should, you know, nail my colors to the mast here.

Obviously, I'm, you know, responsible for Ubuntu's interests in WSL, right? But that in itself is very interesting because we're finding an interesting trend which is there are people that are already running windows that now are in a world where they need to target linux as a platform and they're able to do that from business that they need to do, which is to build their products on Linux and to target Linux without actually having to dip into a Linux world. And this is kind of an uncomfortable place for me because on the one hand, I represent the Ubuntu desktop. And on the one hand, I represent the Ubuntu desktop. And on the other hand, I represent, you know, Ubuntu's aspirations for WSL.

And they don't necessarily compete with one another. They do complement one another, but they do overlap, you know, that set. They are not distinct sets of users, right? They do intersect. I like that little microcosm. I think of the cognitive dissonance we've all had around WSL and figuring out where does it fit in this ecosystem? Right. It's a very similar logic that arrives you at Discord versus Matrix, right? It's that pragmatic approach to use the thing that gets the job done versus the purest approach sometimes. Yeah. And you have to figure that the windows 10 user base has got to be at least one or even two orders of magnitude bigger than the one two desktop good point and sure and i don't discount any of those things

um and and to some extent i'm pragmatic too i have a macbook as both wimpy and others know and i also have a windows PC that I work from as well because I do some game development. I need to be able to do this. And the thing is, I just, I don't see WSL as a driver for getting people interested in the Linux platform. I just don't think it will work that way.

I'm not so sure about that. So you just said to me that you have a Windows computer for game development. The trend that we are seeing almost exclusively ahead of everything else is game studios that need to target Linux and are using WSL as the vehicle to do that. Now, I can't reveal names and I can't say what's going on behind the scenes, but that is definitely a trend that we're seeing. Well, that's good to know. I think it's also the perspective that Jay Tucky in the chat room points out that's worth considering. He says, I can confirm that I love WSL and many of my colleagues use it at work on Windows machines.

If WSL didn't exist, they wouldn't be using Linux. They just wouldn't be using Linux tools. So there's that too. There's like the use of more open source tools, even if it's running on a proprietary platform, isn't somewhat a net benefit as well. Right. And we're already sort of comfortable with the, oh yeah, you use whatever, maybe it's a Mac or Windows and then SSH to all your Linux servers. It's sort majority of cases, the Ubuntu user space, which is the open source Ubuntu user space. And is the new Windows terminal open source? Yeah, I believe it is. Yes. Yeah, that's funny. So that stack is fairly open source, except for the virtualizer it's running on. It's pretty open. You know, it's way, way more open than, you know, you would, you know, think in your mind when you're thinking about a Microsoft ecosystem, because it isn't a Microsoft ecosystem. This is Microsoft basically opening up to what the rest of the industry have defined as the de facto development platform standards. development platform standards and um guys like mike i guess building applications that he's building it just made sense to him to just switch to the platform itself and which which we dig into

encoder a little bit so that's a good tease and i think mike right so a lot of people talk about you know oh wsl is the way that microsoft are going to snuff out Linux. Well, what if it's not that? What if Mike is actually the example of where we're headed? You know, that more people come to Linux platform natively because they've been introduced to it via another means. Yeah, you get more comfortable with it. You know, eventually, a couple of years down the road, all right, I could see living in this day to day. I wonder if there is brand association power as well.

If you are a Windows user and you trust Microsoft and you trust the Windows platform and now they're saying this is a tool that is legitimate. It's sort of a brand association thing. I wonder if it gives it a more legitimate endorsement. That's the word I'm looking for. Yeah. And, you know, the thing is, as all of these people have said about the idea of WSL potentially being an avenue in which people start thinking about using Linux natively, like my own story in getting in, switching to Linux parallels that like WSL didn't exist back then. I started with DJGPP and using it in DOS and then with Windows using

Sigwin and eventually switching to Linux full time because I liked that platform, that ethos. And that's certainly something that I think is important and is a good way to go. The difference between then and now is that we have a lot more strongly de-emphasized the community and the open source principles at the forefront of how people get access to open source software and tools. And so I don't know if people actually get exposed to that open source culture quite as much now than they would have, you know, like when I started doing this like 15, 20 years ago. Interesting. So I would argue that more people are exposed to that because it is the lingua franca of contemporary software development. You can't go into an organization and they explain to you that they want to create a way to distribute some information to the world without them leveraging open source technologies in order to base the foundation of their product on that, right?

You know, it's your thoughts, your thinking that are unique and distinctive. It's not the technology that you use anymore. True. And also, looking at my daughter's generation who are just emerging into this world, who are just emerging into this world, they're brought up on Scratch and the micro, or at least in this country, they're brought up on Scratch and the micro bit.

And the whole process is not called open sourcing, but the idea that you share your code and then you remix it is the very expression of that collaborative open source environment that i find most compelling so you know my daughter talks about magpying things you know finding something that somebody else has done that you value and building upon it and this is the term that the kids use in this you know know, in my area, they magpie somebody else's stuff. I'm just, I'm just smirk. I'm just smiling because that's a wonderful thought.

Adorable. Well, so there you go. That's what Mike's been up to. That's how we got down that rabbit hole. That's what's... Sorry about that. No, no, it's great. That's one of my favorite things about this show.

Check it out, Coder.show. It's back. It should be up now. Go check. Is it up now? It's not yet, but it will be soon. Okay, all right. It's in the tubes, as it were, doing the encoding.

I'm pretty excited about that. Mr. Resington, it's been a while since we've got an update from you. I know you've got some new shows. Tell us what you've got going on. Yeah, well, since I disappeared, shall we say, I have started a new show called The New Show with Popey and Dan. And it's a completely new show. It's nothing like the old show. It's The New Show. And it's at the new.show. So check that one out. And also, Jim Salter and Alan Jude of TechSnap fame, I managed to get those two together for

a show called Two and a Half Admins, which is at 2.5admins.com. You see what we did there, clever domain hack. And that's basically me just learning stuff from them. I just kind of introduce it, ask them questions and go, oh, right, yeah, okay. And then kind of say, should I do it like this? And they say, no, you're not doing it that way.

You should do it this way, that way. You're doing it completely wrong, Joe. You're a half half admin and poppy calls that show 2.05 admins to try and insult me that sounds about fair and joe have you learned anything yet i've learned tons from them have you implemented anything you've learned yet uh no i'm still i'm still at the planning stage of implementing the stuff right of course Next time he rebuilds. Popey had to drop out early. So for Popey's benefit, I'm going to plug the Ubuntu podcast, which is humming right along. Mr. Wimpress, I've noticed on my YouTube recently that there seems to be some Ubuntu Mate hacking going on live on YouTube.

Yeah. going on live on YouTube. Yeah. So some people during lockdown have decided to get fit and lose weight or, you know, increase their mental aptitude by reading books. I decided I'd learn how to flex OBS studio and learn a little bit about cameras and videography. So I've been doing a bit of live streaming. So not just Ubuntu Marte, but generally stuff around the Ubuntu community or grassroots projects to try and involve people in, you know, projects. Just trying to put stuff out there to invite people in. And we've had some success. So, yeah, I've got a YouTube channel. It's Wimpy's World.

So YouTube.com Wimpy's World. So youtube.com Wimpy's World. Come along, join the next live stream and dip into our Discord server. We've got a broad, broad spectrum of people involved there from enthusiasts through to hardcore developers who are interested in making and creating stuff. And what's the name of that Discord? It's in the YouTube chat. So if you go to youtube.com, Wimpy's World, there's linked from there.

Yeah, yeah. Or wimpysworld.com. There's all of the links there. I like your setup. You've got like a good setup over there with the music going. And you must have one of, do you have one of those Elgato stream deck controls

or something? Because I noticed you're hitting a button and then stuff sliding around and it looks really good. So I lots of things it's a bit embarrassing like how much stuff i've got now so i have three mirrorless cameras now and i do i do have two algato stream decks although i only use one the thing i use for switching the transitions is actually a fairly modest android tablet and go to youtube.com slash wimpy's world because i'll be revealing how i've put all of this stuff together and the tricks i've learned along the way and i've been

learning how to do this stuff by following like um pro level game streamers and how they're using OBS and then adapting how they're using OBS to delivering like let's code Linux material. So I'm going to be going through all of that and how I'm using OBS and all of the plugins that are available and all of the ancillary bits and pieces so come along and join we'll go through that journey together oh wow wimpy you forgot to mention the snap the obs snap that's what makes it all possible right that'll be part of it yeah the obs the obs snap it's like um i'll tell you what it it's like a Linux distribution. So the OBS Snap is OBS plus about 20 plugins and filters built into the Snap. So it's a fully loaded battery included version of OBS. And that's what I use. And everything that's built into the Snap of OBS, it includes all of the hardware acceleration for nvidia and amd

and intel gpus and apus and a whole bunch of plugins to do sexy transitions and interesting effects it's all in there and i've learned it all by watching game streamers on twitch well you've really nailed it i i've watched uh i've watched several of them, and I think you've put a lot of good thought into just how things flow when you're making a transition too, which looks really good. But just the overall look is good. The green screen is working really well. The chat integration works great. The music isn't too loud, so you can still hear what you're doing, and I can see what you're working on, which checks all the boxes for me. Taken a lot of fails to get there, but thank you for the kind words.

Definitely needs more star wipes though. Star wipes? Yeah, man, to make it really professional definitely agreed good lord one day i will hope to be half as good as wimpy at live streaming look neil neil the very fact that you are now streaming on twitch moderately influenced by my jamboree that i do is the whole reason i'm doing it right is i think as a linux community we need to get away from matrix mailing lists and irc channels and emerge into this whole video production era in order to capture a new audience. So Neil, it doesn't matter if you're learning as I was a year ago, you're doing it right. You're capturing a new audience.

Something I haven't shared with you, but I've been doing podcast consulting at chrislass.com slash consulting. And I had a consultation with a developer of a popular open source project that everyone listening who's used Linux desktop for a while has definitely used this app. And they've noticed that developers streaming is becoming more and more of a thing. And it was you, Wimpy, that they pointed to specifically that really impressed them with the way you're doing it and sort of inspiring them to get their setup going.

that really impress them with the way you're doing it and sort of inspiring them to get their setup going. I don't know if it's going to be a great idea or not, but I think, you know, it is for them connecting them with a newer generation of developers who are just beginning their journey and it's been worth it so far. So I think you're onto something in that regard. So I'm blushing a little bit,

but the thing is this, right? Video is the medium by which most information is communicated via the internet these days particularly since you know the whole you know galactic meltdown started a few months ago our community needs to capitalize on that movement i don't claim to be doing it right i think i've just i've just caught a wave of other people that are also investing in video as a means to communicate because it's no like accident that i started doing this when i found myself stuck within the four walls that I'm sat within right now. Right. You know, it's kind of a happenstance of, you know, of the world we find ourselves in. Right. I think video plays a part in this. I think it's every medium. I think it's audio,

text and video, and there's a reach into each of them. But I have as well really kind of started putting live streams up more on my screen as I'm working. I have a monitor that I just sort of perfect to just toss a stream on and it's either a news stream or sometimes it's a community stream. And it's like, it's like listening to a podcast while I'm at my desk only instead it's a live stream. And so it works for me. And I think there's probably a lot of people that do that. I think there's something to that right now. Maybe that is very much of the now, but you know, my live streams are not short and they are an hour like minimum.

The last one I did was an hour and 45 minutes kind of staggered that 2000 people have watched that, you know, in the time since I did that last this time last night. What's your retention like though retention's pretty decent actually you'd be surprised i mean oh nice yeah you it's it's like uh 30 35 minutes on my channel and most of it is like long form content and i used to criticize people making long form content, basically streaming hours long things.

But there is an audience for that kind of technical information from our community. So we'll have links to that in the show notes. That's pretty great. This has been a fun episode. It's really felt like a party. Thank you, everybody, for being here. So go check out Wimpy's channel. I have a link to that. Check out Alex on the self-hosted podcast. Check out Joe on the return of Linux Action News and his podcast, Two and a Half Admin, the new show, and of course, Late Night Linux. Mike's also got the Mike Dominick show and Coder Radio. You can find those.

We'll have links in the show notes. It's a lot of plugs there. There's probably more that I'm probably, am I forgetting one? Probably. Probably. I mean, there's a lot to it. Give me a job. Yeah. Yeah. Give me a job. Yeah.

Yeah. Give Drew a job. If you were, seriously, if you're looking for somebody who's a great admin or a fantastic audio master. And just a great coworker. Yeah. I really, I think Drew, if you had time and, you know, could like, you know, just get like some massive VC funding, you could launch a serious podcast editing shop.

Like they could, you know, Drew's podcast editing. But the realities of the world are that the man needs a job. So if you need a sysadmin or a great editor and sound master, give them a look. We'll have a link in the show notes to that. A thank you to Cloud Guru for sponsoring this episode. And a thank you to our members, unpluggedcore.com. As we sign off, Wes, I'm going to hit the old refresh. We have 24 active core contributors now.

Amazing. We haven't even finished the show. Which means there's still some of those discounted founder slots available for the download audience. Use the promo code founder, or if you just click the link at the top of the show notes, it will take you to the deal right there. Thank you so much for tuning in to this week's episode of the Unplugged program. I can't wait for next week's episode and all the episodes after that. We'll see you right back here next Tuesday. Thank you. The brave souls over at WSL Conf are doing it again on September 9th and the 10th.

WSL Conf on September 9th and the 10th. Oh, that was a great time last time. Yeah. Maybe we should see if we can get in there again. I'd be curious. Diddle, are you going? I'm presenting. Fantastic.

Well, I guess you should probably go then. I guess you should probably go. Otherwise, it's going to be really awkward. You know what, Diddle Dan? We should fly you out there. Oh, hang on a minute. Oh, yeah. No, none of that.

It's all virtual. I am actually legitimately missing community events. I know. I am now. I mean, it's getting bloody tiresome, right? You mean barbecue events? Yes, I do. Yes.

I really do. I'll tell you what. If LinuxFest Northwest is going again by next year, if you come out, I'll take a group of you out to the best burgers in the Northwest, the best burgers in the Northwest, if you come out. That's my commitment to you. And then the best pizza afterwards at Mod Pizza. No, Joe! That is not the best pizza! Stop dissing the Mod Pizza. Look, for us heathens that live, you know, in the colonies, mod pizza is the height of pizza sophistication. I have to disagree. Nope.

No, you can't disagree because you don't live in the colonies. Can I just take you to good pizza just so you can? Can we just do that, please?