LINUX Unplugged - 502: Docker Shocker

Episode Date: March 20, 2023

The story of an open-source hero who became a villain. Special Guest: Alex Kretzschmar.

Well, Docker gave us one of those weeks where sysadmins just get a lot of bad news, which we are going to get into here in a moment. And it's not all bad, but we're going to talk about it. But it got me thinking about this week where I was just going along my biz, doing my thing, and I got the worst news for me at the time. Have you ever had one of these experiences? Just going about your business, thinking. Trying to get stuff done, and then that email shows up. Or the text message or the phone call. So this is a long time ago. I don't even think I want to say how long.

But I was working at a regional bank that ran Windows MT4. And Windows 2000 had been out for a few years at this point. It was still kind of like, know probably pre-service pack three yeah somewhere in that era and i was working on building out a vm environment that was going to replace the nt4 systems with samba servers running effectively active directory very fancy and i was really kind of proud of what I was developing, but it wasn't done. It was clear, like I had to still sort out a few things and really kind of figure out how I was going to address back then group policy. I won't waste you with the details, but I won't, I won't

waste your time. But there was, you know, that last 5%. Yes, there was the last 5% to figure out. And we were getting audited as is routine because the bank is insured by the fdic and the local auditors had somehow got microsoft in their ear and microsoft had convinced them that for the bank to be secure from a technology standpoint they must be all using active directory if they have windows servers and desktops and we were on nt4 and it became a requirement of FDIC insurance stated by our auditor, because they put it on our audit report. And if you don't pass the audit report, you don't get your insurance. Then we had to run Windows 2000. And after years of stalling, after years, I got an email from leadership that was like, you need to get everything running on Windows 2000 right now.

Kill the project you're working on and start working on this and they you know they wanted to move quick because they didn't want to get in trouble because you have like a certain set of like i don't know it was probably more than 90 days maybe it was a year maybe it was six months maybe it was three months but we had like a set amount of time where they were going to come back and re-audit us make sure you were in compliance now and a second failure is a big deal. It's not like you lost your insurance, but it's like the next step. And so it became the personal pet project of the CEO

to make sure that we moved to Windows 2000. And I had to kill my little baby Linux network. It was so sad, Wes. It was too soon. Do you think you could still set up a Win2K network? Like if the Linux thing doesn't work out in the studio? For sure. I thought about doing it because what I ended up doing

is taking that basic recipe that I came up with and I kind of sold it to clients who became stuck with NT4 and they had to switch because support had been dropped and it just became a thing. I'd come around, move their systems over to Linux, virtualize their Windows box, and then migrate them over to Samba virtualize their Windows box, and then migrate

them over to Samba. It worked great. So in the long run, I got mine. Hello, friends, and welcome back to your weekly Linux talk show. My name is Chris. My name is Wes. My name is Chris. My name is Wes. My name is Brent. And my name is Alex. Well, hello, Alex. Everybody, Alex from Self Hosted is joining us today because today we're sharing the story of an open source hero who is becoming the villain.

We're going to break down this whole Docker Hub rug pull that's happened recently, but we'll share some history and some context and then our thoughts around that, and then some alternatives that you could consider. We'll be right back. Protected by WireGuard. We love it. It's going to change your networking game and build a flat mesh network in just seconds. Any device, try it out for free for up to 20 devices at tailscale.com. And if you get an opportunity, tell them you heard about it from us. There's no like special slash Linux or nothing. It's just Tailscale.

So give, you know, if you get a chance, tell them. Tailscale.com, go try it out. Absolutely love using it. I got no inbound ports on my firewall anymore, Wes. Nice. All of us. I remember when your network wasn't flat. I mean, what was...

Why? I've always been a flat networker. You know, from the good old days. So it's nice to see. And of course, I want to say time-appropriate greetings to our mumble room. Hello, mumble room. Good morning. Hello.

Hello. Hola. Hey, Brenton.. Good morning. Hello. Hello. Hello. Hola. Hey, Brent. Aloha. Hey, guys. Welcome in. Thank you, everybody who's in the on-air room, and holler everybody up there in the quiet listening.

The Mumble Room joins us every Sunday and gets a low-latency Opus audio stream. And speaking of latency, overall, Brent's latency is pretty darn good, even though he's coming in from Berlin in the Nextcloud offices. Brentley, how are you doing after 27 hours of flying? I'm doing surprisingly well. I could feel my eyelids starting to, you know, the fade, you know, the fade. But it's been great. I'm here in the Nextcloud offices, and behind me is Marius, who has been like the best host ever.

He got my favorite food, picked me up from the airport. He's got these fancy drinks for me, and he's just been fabulous. So, Marius, thank you for taking care of me today when I couldn't even keep anything straight. I'm so tired. Thank you, Marius. And, of course, for editing Linux Action News as well.

Taking care of us every week. You're very welcome. Only the best for you guys. We're fond of that convenient vegan, you know, so you've got to look after him. I'll try. So Marius is here with me because Nextcloud has been kind enough to invite JB

to spend a little time here this week. They're doing a special event on Tuesday which we can't talk about just yet. They're going to be announcing some exciting stuff on Tuesday, and we're going to find out what that is. Probably in Linux Action News, you two boys are going to dig into it.

Yeah, and I could see us maybe chatting a little bit more about it in the show next Sunday, too, depending on what gets revealed. Next Linux Unplugged, I think we're going to have a whole bunch of stuff for you on the topic. So look forward to that one. And we have some other exciting news, which is because there's a Brent in Berlin,

I thought maybe it might be fun to do an impromptu last minute Berlin meetup for JB fans. So we are still sorting out some details and NextCloud has been kind enough to tentatively offer for us to maybe do a meetup in their space. But we've created a meetup.com page. So meetup.com slash Jupiter Broadcasting to see that. And we've also created a matrix chat room. Chris, you called it something kind of fun. What did you call it? Yes, for the Berlin Buddies chat room, Brentley. So people can, we'll have a link in the show notes and it's the Berlin Buds room. And the idea is, is if we ever make it out there again, that's the community that we'd like to

call upon and organize with. But of course, now that Brent's there right now, you can jump in. We'll have in our space, we'll also have a link in the show notes. And then the meetup as Brent refines the details will be at meetup.com slash Jupyter Broadcasting. And I'm jealous. You should be. I would love to have a meetup at the next cloud office. That sounds like a lot of fun. It's been great so far. And so just to put the bug in everyone's ear, if you're near or in Berlin and you're hoping to join us, we're tentatively saying Friday, this coming Friday as this is being recorded. So hopefully you get a chance to hear this before Friday comes around. And it's going to be really low key. Just come join us.

We're going to have maybe a few drinks, some snacks, and we just really want to spend time together. So please come join me. It's an area we've wanted to get to and hang out with that community. So it's great that Brent gets a chance to do it. And then real time details like day of details or organizing or questions, that stuff generally tends to take place in the matrix room because it's the highest resolution, highest bandwidth communication channel day of. So you can also join over there. We do,

we do are willing to, to host a meetup here, but maybe because of logistics, it might not work out. In that case, we have like various hackerspaces, like five minutes close by to the office. So it will be still

in the area but we're going to finalize that and update the page great great and I say you know if they say no

just everybody show up anyways then what are they going to do I hear there's like a dance club or something below my feet currently so we'll

we'll find out is that what I'm hearing is that what you're are you hearing oh no I've ruined it all I thought i was hearing something like we just as long as you dance for us then we'll forgive you it turns out yeah berlin

is great so far yeah i don't i wouldn't care if uh we could hear mario's farting in the background it's just great to have one of the hosts of the unplug program doing the show live from the next spot office that's that's just pretty fantastic and bre, you're a champ for doing that 27 hours and then sitting down and prepping for a podcast and doing a podcast. That's not easy. And the only way I could get here was to take two extra legs of flights through Denver, which is the opposite direction of where I'm supposed to be headed, just to make it here in time for the show so that I'm not arriving at the airport right now. So I think it's worth it. I love Linux Unplugged just that much. And we love you.

Yeah. And just get a nap after the show. You have my permission. Alex is joining us today because we were going to have a small conversation about Docker of all things and sort of the ups and downs of using docker based applications as a self-hoster because alex is host of the self-hosted program and then docker went and announced that they were deleting open source organizations that didn't meet their qualifications we talked about this on linux action news but the short version is that Docker has a set of requirements that you have to kind of meet to be part of this open source program. And if you don't qualify for that, you either have to pay an annual fee for a different type of membership,

which is, uh, turns out $420 a year. Or, yeah. Or, um, well,

at the time it looked like your images would be deleted and your account would be removed. And Alex Els, different Alex than is joining us now. Alex Els. He's the founder of OpenFast, which is a serverless functions made simple project and a longtime Docker supporter. In fact, this is how he describes himself he says quote i was one of the biggest advocates around docker speaking at their events contributing to their projects and being a loyal member of their voluntary influencer program called docker captains and he writes that this is a problem because a the 420 a year cost is beyond the scope of many open source projects that other larger projects depend

on many open source projects including the ones that he publishes he writes have been on docker hub for years and have dependencies on different images and then he writes that this is his words docker's open source program is quote hostile and out of touch and it seems like wes he thinks that because of of this requirement they have around how you can make money. Yeah, the Docker-sponsored open-source program, and that program has qualification criteria. You've got to be shared in public repos,

you've got to meet the open-source initiative definition, you've got to be in active development, and you have to not have a pathway to commercialization. Your organization must not seek to make a profit through services or by charging for higher tiers. Accepting donations to sustain your efforts is permissible. Whoa, that's way too painful. Yeah, it is.

It's pretty restrictive, isn't it? It even means things like, there are lots of smaller projects that their main developer literally sells for higher services for integrating into companies, services, products, whatever. That would disqualify them. That's how most of the smaller ones actually sustain themselves. If they're not, you know, having some unrelated job of some kind. The worst thing about how Docker went about announcing this news was at the time of the initial email, it wasn't even a blog post. It was just an email to Docker Hub users.

I was left with a sense of, what did I just read? I didn't know what was going to get deleted on what timeline. I didn't know if that meant that my namespaces were going to be relinquished to a squatter. Can you imagine if you're NGINX, for example, and someone decides to, you know, your images get deleted and then someone else decides to swoop in and steal the NGINX namespace? That's essentially what we're talking about here. and steal the Nginx namespace. That's essentially what we're talking about here. And it would have been a huge, huge problem for people running container images from several years ago and just assuming everything was fine.

Maybe it's in a Docker Compose file or whatever. And they just pull the latest image, assuming it's still there and still the same image they put in their file originally. And suddenly, oh, wait, this is ransomware. Oh, well, hmm, that's not good. And the other thing you've got to consider is that Docker, because they were the original, as we'll get to in their history lesson a bit later, they were the original Docker Hub stewards,

of course. And one of the reasons Docker was so successful was because of Docker Hub. It was a standardized way to share images and collaborate with other people around this standardized image format that Docker made so popular. As part of that, in all of the Docker clients, Docker hijacked the root namespace for all registries. So when you type docker pull nginx, what it's actually doing is docker pull registry.docker.io slash nginx. And so that means as a user, it's transparent and it makes things easier. It makes commands shorter, but it does mean that by default, and as we all know, default is king. By default, you're pulling from docker hub and this is a really insidious move on their part if you ask me to kind of make docker hub make some money because let's be honest there are going to be dozens hundreds thousands of terabytes worth of images stored up there right now making them very little money in the long run.

But I got to think they, you know, they must have had conversations behind the scenes before making this announcement of like, okay, well, what's the transitional period looking like? But from the email you received, Alex, it seems like maybe that was an afterthought. That feels a little surprising to me. It's not the first time they've done some shenanigans with docker hub they actually introduced rate limiting back in october 2020 uh they did an okay ish job of doing that i mean you're going from no rate limiting to some so there's going to be

some people that are upset about that you know the end of the free ride etc they did an okay job with that they maintain most of the goodwill of the community and uh you know they did an okay job with that they maintained most of the goodwill of the community and uh you know they did okay this one though it was so bad that a couple of days later they actually released a post on their own blog post saying okay we apologize we screwed up yeah we did a terrible job of announcing this leno.com slash unplugged go there there to get $100 in 60-day credit on a new account. And it's a great way to support the show while you get to kick the tires yourself and see what it's really about.

Linode is a cloud platform that makes things simple, affordable, and accessible for everyone in our audience. Maybe you're building something for yourself, a friend, a family member, or maybe you're building something for a massive business and you need super large infrastructure. Linode scales that whole range because they've got years of experience building out systems at each tier that you might need. And it's how we run everything that we've built in the last few years. And every time I kind of start with the question, what kind of Linode do I need for this?

Or could I run it on an existing system? Because they can really stretch. You'd be really impressed. And it was just this basic understanding of how to utilize Linux and the features coming to Linux that was the kind of aha moment for Linode almost 19 years ago. You know, today it's so common to productize every single little aspect of a server, even like just executing a process, right? You could, somebody will sell you that as a service where you can just execute a process on a box. It's just not the way I like to build things, right? I like to be able to SSH in, check on the system.

I want to look at the file system myself. Maybe I'm restoring data, boy, especially in like an emergency restoration situation. I want to be able to get on the box. And Linode has fantastic systems, one-click deployment type systems or rigs that you can build from the ground up. And just about every distro you're going to want to run up in the cloud with one click of a button. They got the best performance, 11 data centers online today all around the world and another dozen coming online. They're investing massively in their infrastructure this year. Fantastic services like the S3-compatible object storage,

which we use all the time. Their cloud firewall, so certain nasty packets never even make it to your rig. Backups that are easy to understand. Right before you take an action, you can look at where you're at, and if you need to, you're going to be able to restore and you're going to understand where that restoration is at in process they also have some nice high-end features kubernetes support terraform support you want to snap it into your infrastructure management you absolutely can

could be part of a great multi-cloud strategy too so go build something go learn something try it for yourself and support the show you just go to linode.com slash unplugged. That gets you the $100. Linode.com slash unplugged. You kick the tires, you can really try things out with $100, and you support the show. Great opportunity to learn or try an open source project too. You're going to love their performance. Linode.com slash unplugged. So it's important to note that they're not actually apologizing for what they're doing. They're only apologizing for the tone of what they're doing. And that's a very important distinction that I think a lot of people missed. They are not rescinding anything that they're doing.

They are not apologizing for the move that they're making. They're only slightly apologizing for the tone in which they're doing it. And that is the worst of it all. And I actually got two of these emails from two separate community organizations that I'm part of. And like, I couldn't, the people that those orgs reached out to, they told them that all of our data was going to be deleted. It's like, how the heck is this okay?

And it's still unclear whether if the organization data is deleted, whether the image data will remain available either. They did actually clarify that one. Oh, they did? Okay. Now, Alex, I'm seeing so many pieces, and this seems a little confusing to maybe someone like me who's just been dabbling in Docker and starting to learn it, but I don't know any of the history. I would imagine that's important for the context around what's happening here

this week. Well, I think so. The most important thing in the context of this discussion right now is in November 2019, Mirantis acquired Docker's enterprise wing. But if we go right the way back to the beginning of Docker, this is some ancient history now because Docker this week, and I don't know if it's just serendipity or what, but passed its 10th birthday since its first public release. So back on March 15th in 2013 at PyCon, Solomon Hikes took to the stage and showed the world the very first incarnation of what would become Docker Inc.

Back then, the company was called DotCloud, and they're out of France. And it wasn't actually designed as a containerization company back then it was a web hosting services company and they just built docker as some internal tooling to make that easier and make that better how best to solve problems right scratch your own itch and so yeah march 15th solomon hikes goes up on pycon he gives a barely a five-minute lightning talk before the presenter cuts him off to say, yeah, all right, cool, thanks, that's neat and everything.

Wow. We'll put a link to that video in the show notes because it's nice and short, it's worth watching. You can tell the young Solomon is so excited by what he's got in front of him. I think he knows, but he just needs other people to believe in it too. Then very shortly after, only a couple of weeks after that, they, they being dot cloud open

sourced Docker. And I think this is a huge move. They, they open source some of their own internal tooling and took Docker forward. Do we know what the impetus was to open source it? I think if you look at that original PyCon talk, they knew they had a hit. I don't think they quite knew quite how big of a hit they had on their hands. And as part of the open sourcing efforts, you know, if you ask me,

I think without having done that move, it wouldn't have achieved the notoriety and the success that it did. But the next thing I have on my little list of history, Docker history, momentous moments, is Coder Radio. Back in September 2013, Chris Fisher and Michael Dominick had.cloud on Coder Radio episode 66. Remember that one? Yeah. Yeah, don't call it Docker. It was.cloud, right? It was.cloud back then.

Yeah. You know, what's interesting about that is we so, so, so rarely have guests on that show. Maybe three or four in the 500-plus episode run. And they were one, they're like, there's something here. These guys are on to something. Because, you know, an early topic in Coder Radio was, how the heck do you actually reliably distribute back-end software for Linux and it was just this unsolved problem that was this

really kind of friction point for developers getting started in Linux in general it works on my machine right yeah yeah and then you go ship it to your customer or a client or a tester and it just doesn't even run or it doesn't build. Remember back then, we were all still trying to figure out things like Vagrant and shipping around VM images and Flatpak and Snaps and all that. They just weren't really a thing. And Docker came along and said, hey, look, we've got this standardized server packaging format that lets you run applications in the Linux kernel. And it's a lot lighter weight than a virtual machine. So they really were pretty revolutionary back then. But what's interesting is the Docker technology wasn't anything new. It was just wrapping up

LXC and C groups stuff from the Linux kernel. It wasn't until later on that they made the switch to lib container. So originally it was an LXC based technology. Yeah. I think though, the thing that really stuck for people like me who are old school admins, because initially the way you got isolation and separated things was through VMs. And then we had like Apache.

Well, actually first we had Apache virtual service, but, and then we had containers after all of that. And the separation of application and data was the breakthrough moment, I think for a lot of us. And that was just sort of encouraged just And the separation of application and data was the breakthrough moment, I think, for a lot of us. And that was just sort of encouraged just by the fundamentals of how containerization works.

Back in October 2013, DocCloud then changed its name to Docker Inc. This was when they realized that their managed services, their hosted services company, was small fry compared to what Docker could be. And what's interesting is when we look at the overall docker landscape a few years later in in june 2016 microsoft tried to buy docker and in that ben golub who was the docker ceo at the time said we can be as big as vmware and that was their ambition wow it always was a problem in one sense. There was

always an underlying problem. We don't have to get to it yet, but there's always, even when I think back on this now, I can identify it already. So along comes June, 2014, Docker turns 1.0. I remember this and it's crazy looking back at this stuff thinking this is before I co-founded linuxserver.io.io this is before i think we were still i was still using unraid back then and trying to get vms to host plugins for things like plex and it is wild to me that docker didn't used to exist because it's so obvious as a solution now obviously after the fact it's easy to say that but before it came along it was a huge deal and well you remember there was some controversy

because some people thought it wasn't ready. And right before the 1.0 release, there was a security vulnerability. But behind the scenes, I think they were trying to finish it up so that way you could ship in RHEL, which would really expose it to a whole new set of audience. Well, you know, what also happened in June 2014 was the first public commit of Kubernetes. And so I think those two things are too coincidental to be ignored. And if you look at Kubernetes now, obviously it's the dominant force for running containers at scale. But back then it was still based around Docker and Docker was the container runtime. All the run C stuff, container D stuff was still in its infancy. And so Docker was the target for Kubernetes back then.

Though it seems like there was one moment though, that I feel like really opened it up to like the DIY self-hosted community. Like the moment, like there was Docker and then there was like this next phase of adoption. Well, there was a, there was a program called fig for a little while, which let you define applications in a yaml file define docker stacks in a yaml file but in october 2014 docker formalized this and brought it into the the real world so to speak and named it docker compose so docker compose 1.0 was released in october 2014 and my life was changed forever i remember listening to the shows back then because i was still a wee listener,

still in short pants and everything, short trousers. And I think I remember shouting at the radio on more than one occasion, Chris, just use containers. You were a little bit reluctant to start with. I was, it's funny you say that.

I, I went back and I think it was like episode one 19 of this year show, um, 2015 or something like that. And I was listening to our coverage of Docker. And I was a little upset that we had more and more security vulnerabilities being announced back then because we didn't have all the scanning things in place and all of the practices. And I was getting frustrated that all of these containers were shipping. And then the thing that Wes and I honed in on is the reality is most people are deploying these containers and then never updating them. They're like deploying them once and then leaving them set and never coming back to them. I feel like people have

gotten better about that. Docker Compose helps make that easier. But that really bothered me back in 2015. But later on, you know, in July when, it's funny because this was just a little bit before Docker Compose, but when Docker Compose came out later on, I feel like it made it a lot more accessible for people to easily stand up a container and then easily update it and deploy that update.

And it just made it that much simpler, which was already a very smooth process. And that really changed my tune. And then if you kind of like look at the coverage as 2016, 17, 18 progress, I start talking about how I'm moving more and more of our applications into containers and how I'm using it and stuff like that. It was kind of the first simple declarative approach too, right? It wasn't Docker commands to run.

Here it was like just a little YAML file you could ship to all your machines, share with people. Shareable. And it's essentially self-documenting, which is really great. And then you can always just save those tiny little text files, those little YAML files, and then throw them on a new system and rebuild your infrastructure. I mean, it's powerful. remember the very first time i did that and it was a holy a holy moment of i think i just blown away my unraid box for the 20th time that month because i was young and carefree and what's data integrity you know uh and i was used to at that point reconfiguring all of my applications through the unraid plugin system at that point so config files and you know manual configuration click click click and i remember reinstalling unraid bringing up my docker containers after i'd done So config files and manual configuration, click, click, click.

And I remember reinstalling Unraid, bringing up my Docker containers after I'd done the reinstall and all of the app data was still there on a separate volume. And my apps just came back exactly as they were. And I was like, holy, that's it. This is it. This is the way to go. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that was it. That was totally it for me too.

the way to go yeah exactly yeah that was it that was totally it for me too and i was like oh man this just solved something that i've spent years you know like before before that kind of thing came along an upgrade was such a more serious more dramatic process you could argue that a real sysadmin would know how to do that anyway but one of the things i've always said about docker is it allowed me as a whippersnapper to actually operate at a level much higher than my competency permitted. Because a lot of the benefits of a container is I'm outsourcing a lot of the decisions about packaging, about how to run a particular web server with the correct parameters for it, et cetera, et cetera, to the developers of that project. I'm not following some old blog

post that was for a version three versions ago. No, I'm running what the developer decided was correct for that particular containers version at that moment in history. And it's an encapsulated snapshot of that thing, right? And that really is why I found containers so cool, to be honest. You and millions of developers out there, I mean, it really started becoming a platform and Docker started becoming a brand. It did. So if we look at the time period now from 2013 through to sort of 15-ish, Docker Inc, which we should separate in our minds a little bit from Docker the technology, Docker Inc, the company, went through four rounds of tens of millions of dollars worth of VC funding.

And notably, this culminated in 2015 with Goldman Sachs leading an investor group, raising $95 million in its fourth round. Wow, that's a lot of cooks in the kitchen too. Not bad for a kernel checkbox feature, huh? Which is how I've heard it described before. So that meant Docker by this point, Docker Inc was valued at a billion dollars. They were unicorn status. They were the darlings of the valley, you know?

And so perhaps it should have come as no surprise that by June, 2016, big people were interested. We're talking Microsoft at this point. It transpired a couple of years after the fact. We all kind of thought that Docker was ripe for acquisition at the time, but nothing came out publicly about this at the time. But in June 2016, Microsoft attempted to buy Docker Inc. for $4 billion. Yeah. Yeah. I guess the deal never went through because they couldn't agree on a price, but Microsoft was probably, you know what?

I don't blame them. They probably were right for trying, but you could tell the Docker folks wanted a lot more than what, four bill? Which maybe they should have taken it, to be honest with you. With our hindsight hats on, you know, we look at a potential future. Imagine if this deal had gone through, right? Microsoft would own docker they'd own github they'd own linkedin we all had rumors that they were going to buy canonical at some point i don't know how true that ever was or however likely that ever was but can you just

imagine a future where that had actually gone through and happened that that would have been a real stranglehold i mean they're pretty close already i sure do love linux and and let's be honest what are you guys hearing what people where are people goinganglehold. I mean, they're pretty close already. I sure do love Linux. And let's be honest, what are you guys hearing? Where are people going with this Docker Hub drama? They're going to GitHub. I know. They're going to the GitHub registry. Isn't that the irony? We think, right, Docker Hub is crappy because it's a centralized thing owned by a corporate entity.

Let's go to another one. GitHub Container Registry. What could go wrong with that? Maybe they save themselves four billion that in the end they'll end up with the majority of the container registry anyways docker did some cool stuff though in the interim so the the year before this acquisition 2015 16 sort of time period they started acquiring companies themselves to help them build out their own kind of enterprise platform they acquired socket plane kite matic unikernel two-term bunch of other stuff alongside this effort other companies were springing up like core os with their own containerization technologies like rocket and this kind of stuff

and they founded jointly with docker the open container initiative which is still going strong today this created a standardized spec a set of specs for runtimes, for image and distribution of containers. And I think this is now what Kubernetes is built on top of, this kind of standardized deployment of stuff. And without it, we would have ended up with a really fragmented, dare I say, flat pack snap kind of situation going on, but with containers instead. Yeah, or worse, right? Yeah, flat pack snap kind of situation going on, but with containers instead.

Yeah. Or worse, right? Yeah. I could have seen that. Now we move on a little bit later in 2016, and this is where the kind of story for Docker starts to get a little bit bumpy for me at least. And my current affiliation is I work for Red Hat, but this has nothing to do with my opinions on this topic because this predates that by some distance. Back in September 2016, Red Hat fought Docker. And the rationale for that was Docker was moving with developers and they wanted to be fast and agile and release little and often and break stuff and fix stuff quickly. Whereas Red Hat, that's kind of the opposite of what RHEL and the stability of that image is kind of meant to be, right? Red Hat wanted a stable target for Docker and Docker wanted something else. And there was just no way to kind of reconcile,

at least this is as I understand it as an outsider. Maybe someone on the inside of this story could let us know if there was something different going on, but I was following it pretty closely as an outsider at the time. And that's how it looked to me. And so what ended up happening was Red Hat ended up maintaining their own fork of Docker, which was the foundation of OpenShift version three and Docker maintained their own fork of Docker, which was the foundation of their own docker data center platform and all the rest of the open source offerings as well and so what this meant was that the packaging started becoming a bit of a mess you used to be able to on ubuntu at least type apt install docker and get the latest version of docker and then suddenly there was weirdness going on with package

naming and versions and yeah that's how we saw it as end users. Just names started changing and stuff was changing. Yeah. And that led really in April, 2017 to Docker rebranding the open source engine part of Docker to Mobi. Which is really where they started to lose me. That's like, what? It's called what now?

Well, you know, looking at the history all in one place like this, I think it's clear that the goals of Docker Inc. were always going to be at odds with Solomon's original vision for Docker as an open source project. He open sourced it from week two, right? But as an enterprise company, the road to monetization with open source is always difficult. It's a difficult line to walk. We've seen it a thousand times.

Looking at the landscape, I i mean a few months later red hat acquired core os which was another open source company doing some really cool containerization stuff at the time yeah heavily focused on containers only a couple of months after that solomon hikes left docker so april 2017 they moved docker under the mobi label And then not even a year after that, Solomon leaves the company he founded. And so if you ask me, back in April 2017, that move to the Mobi project was kind of Solomon's way of letting the world know with a little white flag, hey, some serious stuff could be going down. If I don't get this stuff out there and formatted correctly, we might lose it forever type deal. So it looked very chaotic from the outside i

suspect because it was even more chaotic on the inside yeah yeah what we see on the outside is probably only a fraction of it which leads us to november 2019 as we discussed mirantis acquired docker's enterprise business which included docker hub industry commentators saw this as the end of a failed cycle of VC money and effort in general. And if you look at the kind of money that Docker had invested into it over that previous six, seven, eight, nine years, they had over $270 million worth of VC funding. And there's only so many exits when you have that much VC funding, right? And Mirantis comes in, they're known for a business that sells management services to other large businesses like Kubernetes products and whatnot.

They were founded in 1999. They're based out of California. And one of the guys that runs it is like an old AT&T guy. And so he comes in, you know, he's running Mirantis. They end up making a bunch of money off of Kubernetes, right? And in a way way it's ironic that they make mirantis makes their living off of kubernetes and then they come in and end up sort of scooping up just like the enterprise pieces like you said alex and i think the thing that's important to stress there is that included at the time and i think this all made us uncomfortable docker hub which obviously leads to future things. I would imagine that Docker Hub is by far their biggest cost center. Maybe employees and staff is bigger, but the bandwidth just for Docker Hub must be astronomical, the bill for it.

Yeah, especially with all the scripts, West writes. You know it. And so it's no wonder that they started doing stuff. Mirantis started doing stuff with Docker Hub over the next few years. Like I say, in October 2020, they started rate limiting users on Docker Hub. So anonymous users were limited to 100 container pools per six hours

and free users were limited to 200 container pools per six hours. Certain organizations were exempt, such as my buddies over at LinuxServer.io because they were a sponsored open source project. But still, it's a gentle turning of the screw, which leads us to this week with the news with Docker saying, we're going to delete open source organizations or not.

We're not going to actually do that. But it took them a bit to get there. Yeah, they really started out rough. And it kind of came on strong. It was basically like, your account will be on strong that was basically like your account will be this is a quote your account will be deleted including images if you don't upgrade to a team plan that was mentioned their docker the cto of docker confirmed that was the interpretation on twitter did say we will protect your namespace though that was good to see but that was the

communication from the cto and in the so the message to these projects is pay us $420 a year or you're going to have to figure out some way to convert to like a personal account. There was no provided migration plan. It's sort of, well, here's your notice and sort it out yourself. And then we waited five days. I don't know the number,

but we waited several days for a quote-unquote clarification, like you said, Alex, where they apologized. They just did a terrible job terrible job with the uh free teams announcements and uh this whole thing about deleting images don't get too upset now you might not be able to update them right isn't that part of it though you won't delete it but it's frozen in time well look it's better than nothing it's better than releasing the namespace for a squatter to then take and then put malware into but you know it's not it's not the free ride that we've been used to for the last uh decade really and without docker hub docker would not have succeeded in the way that it did i have no doubt of that and so it's kind of it's kind of disappointing

on the one foot to say look we've we've grown used to a certain way of working for the last decade. And now you're doing a rug pull on us. But I can also see it from Mirantis' point of view of we've got all these freeloaders eating into our run rate and hurting our profitability. We've got to do something about it. And slowly but surely chipping away at the Docker Hub usage is probably a good way to do it. It's another of those pain in supporting open source stuff, right? We expect all these projects to be packaged and available,

but that takes disk space and networking and data centers and all the rest. Wes, I'm curious if you agree with Alex, because I do. I think Docker Hub being this sort of known source that you could just trust when you're building other images that depend on other people's work, you could just kind of assume that it'd be on Docker Hub. It kind of became like the glue that kind of a community could build around.

Yeah, I mean, we have issues with centralization, of course, but we also see sometimes the struggles of decentralized systems where you don't have that common namespace, that default location to coordinate around. And you did see projects as they adopted Docker and started publishing, you knew that's where you could get it, right? That's where you'd be

pointed to, you'd need to be updates, and it's what of course, they had the default namespace too, and it was easy. So you just knew, like, oh, I wanted to get the latest Debian image. You just go grab it. Yeah. Docker pool Debian. That's it.

Exactly. Yeah. I think that kind of just, it just works aspect of it was a huge contributor to the adoption of the Docker platform and Docker Hub. And it's kind of like the same thing happens on YouTube, right? The cat videos and the getting kicked in the crotch videos, they need to be there in order for the other videos to come to the platform. And then YouTube needs all these different creators creating stuff

to actually make YouTube a valuable platform, just like Docker Hub needs to be a place that all these different creators are contributing their images so that way it becomes a platform. And when you start cutting some of these out, and there's some significant open source projects that are going to get cut out, I feel like you're kind of diminishing a good thing you got going, which all for the better, but just seems like a really stupid mistake. And so looking at the alternatives for kind of avoiding Docker Hub, I mean, the default root namespace hijacking Docker clients

is going to be painful until the end of time with Docker itself. And so this led me to look at a few other solutions this weekend. I looked at things like rootless podman, which we'll cover in this week's self-hosted in some detail. But there are other things you can do in the meantime with self-hosted registries, pull- through caches and that kind of stuff if you're at work sonotype nexus actually has some stuff for built-in

transparent docker hub caching local caching but the linux server team have actually seen this coming a long time ago and they partnered with scarf there's a link a link in the show notes to this, where essentially they have an lscr.io URL, and that transparently pushes through to GitHub container registry underneath, I think. But the point with that is it doesn't really matter what the endpoint is, as long as you target a specific URL, and then that goes and does the translation on the backend. That's the real solution to this. So I found an interesting project called Docker Image Registry Facade. And Wes, I know this is right up your street.

They're doing a bunch of HTTP redirects. Did you see that? Yeah, it's a very nice little breakdown and sort of methodology by Tim Perry, who kind of dug into all of the calls, the network calls that happen when you go to try to pull an image with your standard Docker setup. Broke that down and kind of dug into all of the calls, the network calls that happen when you go to try to pull an image with your standard Docker setup, broke that down and kind of talked about options

of if you did want to take control of your namespace, you wanted to have a stable reference. So I'm publishing an image and I don't want to worry that, okay, well, maybe I decide to move to GitHub for now. And then GitHub starts charging for this kind of thing. And I have to move again. Every time I got to update my project, everyone who depends on my project in their Docker files is going to have to go update that name. And wouldn't it just be really nice if you could use one stable name that you controlled? Unfortunately, for

a variety of reasons, you can't just do a simple DNS thing, so you need a more active HTTP proxy. And Tim kind of lines out how it works, the calls required, has a recipe if you want to do it with a CDN that you're using or something, or he has a Docker image published on Docker Hub that just has a really simple little caddy file set up so you can deploy it yourself. Oh, the irony.

Yeah, there is some there, but I love it. Use Docker Hub for that, right? You can still, like, again, you know, you can still have a personal account and whatnot. All right, we'll put a link to that in the show notes. Yeah, this had me thinking, should we be using something different? And it also has me thinking about what images I have deployed that maybe will break. You know, this is just not fun.

It's not a good problem to have. And if you deploy this at scale, you've got yourself a real headache right now. That's one of the things. It just feels like there wasn't enough sympathy there to the folks who have been and were trusted Docker Hub to use in production for these things and it's okay that there's changes it's just the timeline and the

details means it yeah you can see why sysadmins would be mad yeah i mean for me docker is the as the librarian of images and self-proclaimed default librarian because of the namespace hijack in the docker clients they have a duty of care in this area to maintain that trust that they've built up over a decade and and this announcement this week just hosed all of it agreed yeah yeah i think it was a a change for the worse uh if you're gonna if you're like me and you're wondering geez what what if my images are even going to be impacted i had this sent in from a listener it's called called What's Up Docker. Okay, so cute name. Yeah, right? That's a winner. It goes also by WUD.

And it just notifies you about upstream changes to your Docker containers when they're available, and it lets you choose how you want to deploy them. And maybe this is just something to have right now. I'll be honest with you, it's probably not something I'm going to deploy. You just don't want to find out about all the updates you need to do. Maybe that's it. I just don't

generally layer this stuff on top of my Docker, but I could see how having a tool like this at this particular time would be nice. So we'll have a link to What's Up Docker. It does look like they've gotten a lot of nice integrations and some good documentation, if you're curious. Hey, I did see an ipfs implementation for a docker registry storage back end so federate all the things bitwarden.com slash linux go there to try it out for free right now and if you're a team you're going to be blown away with the Bitwarden features. And Bitwarden is the easiest way for an individual or a business to store, share,

and sync sensitive data. I think everyone knows a good secrets manager is table stakes now for staying secure online. Absolutely table stakes. And Bitwarden's vaults are end-to-end encrypted with zero knowledge encryption, and they're always iterating and making things better. And Bitwarden is open source. It's trusted by millions in our community, teams, organizations around the world, and it's what Wes and I use to store and share sensitive information. Not just passwords and usernames, two-factor tokens, passphrases, billing information. I mean, it's very powerful. And Bitwarden has integrated features that I think make it the best. I've tried the rest. And in my opinion, Bitwarden's the best. I think their

account switching is the best in the business. So smooth, so straightforward. It makes it easy to have a separate password database for work, for home, or for that open source project. When they added that username generator, I was delighted. And then to watch them expand their support for different email generation services and relays as well, so that way you can have a unique username, a unique password, and a unique email address for every site, service, and application you use. And because the Bitwarden tooling is so good, and so straightforward, and so simple and lean, you can integrate it on your mobile devices, you can have the Bitwarden tooling is so good and so straightforward and so simple and lean, you can integrate it on your mobile devices. You can have the Bitwarden extension.

You can have the desktop application. It works great on iOS or Android. It makes it really accessible and possible to have good security across all your devices. And one of the things that I love about Bitwarden is they're constantly iterating and making it better. that I love about Bitwarden is they're constantly iterating and making it better. They have a team that's working on it, focused, and just shipping features on, I think it's like a monthly basis. I mean, I don't, you know, maybe they get some holidays off, I hope, but I mean, it's really impressive. My favorite recent feature they've added is login with another device. I think that makes getting

going so much quicker, especially if you have a really complicated password. It works on the mobile apps, the web vault, the desktop apps. It's so, quicker, especially if you have a really complicated password. It works on the mobile apps, the web vault, the desktop apps. It's so, so, so awesome. I think Bitwarden is the best. I really encourage you to try it. And if you haven't switched over to a password manager, something to store

your sensitive data that you can trust, something that syncs, something that's easy to restore if you ever have to reload your machine, you got to give Bitwarden a go. And if you have,

but maybe you have a friend or a family or a workplace or a project that is not doing things in the best way, you can help them stay secure. Send them as well to bitwarden.com slash Linux. You won't regret it. We love it. Bitwarden.com slash Linux. The one, the only LinuxFest Northwest is back in 2023, October 20th, the 22nd at Bellingham Technical College. Yeah, that's really awesome.

And the reason why we're making mention of it in today's episode is I decided to go ahead. I got a little ahead of myself. There's not a lot to share yet, but I decided to go ahead. I got a little ahead of myself. There's not a lot to share yet, but I decided to go ahead and create a LinuxFest Northwest matrix room on our server. So that way for the community members that just want to start coordinating or making their plans or whatever it is you might be doing, we will now have a LinuxFest Northwest chat room that's all dedicated to that. It's all dedicated to that. I imagine at some point we're going to be talking about grilling. We're going to be talking about meetups. That'll be happening there. And we'll have a link in the show notes so you can join us from all around the world.

And don't forget the call for papers is open as well. We are absolutely looking for people to contribute their interesting open source and Linux related content. Yes, all of it over at linuxfestnorthwest.org. They also ask that you let them know you're coming for various reasons, but the registration process is going to be smooth and easy this year. So check it out, linuxfestnorthwest.org. So next week, I'm going to

do a little Drafting OS check-in. There has been some developments, and I want to cover them on the show, and I want to just kind of give everybody just keep being transparent. Yeah. What's that you got in your pocket over there? So I thought boost in with your questions, especially looking for you iOS users that are thinking about switching over because that's really my been my perspective. But any follow up or questions you have, send them in.

You have until next week's episode in 503. Well, unless unless Docker goes and blows something else up, we'll be talking about that. And I'd like to hear from those of you as well that have been taking the challenge with us. Because Wes and I have been making the switch, and I know some of you out there have. So check in.

If that's you, let us know how it's been going for you. We need you, fellow giraffes. Is it a herd of giraffes when they get together? Do we know what that's called? Gaggle. Is it a gaggle? Is it a murder? It's a murder of giraffes when they get together? Do we know what that's called? Is it a gaggle? Is it a murder? It's a murder of giraffes?

Groups of giraffes are called towers. Towers? So what would that be? We'd be the giraffe towers? Okay. That's not great. Can we get that on a robe? That's not really what I wanted.

I would have liked a murder, a gaggle. At least Tower is unique. A fluffle? No, Brent. That's for eagles. And now it is time for Le Boost. Mofada comes in with 100,000 sats today saying, congratulations on the great slash recent milestone.

Thank you. Moffat. Really appreciate the support more than you could know. What do you think? Tarasa 24. Tarasa. Tarasa comes in with 77,900 sats. I hoard that which your kind covet.

I just finished episode 500, and I wanted to give you some value back, although a bit late, and a little thank you. I really like the concept of zip code boosts. It nicely puts into perspective the variety of all the lovely people that listen to the show. It almost makes me wonder about a possibility of having some kind of map where you could display them all. Oh, that would be neat. Somebody should make that for us.

I don't need another project, but somebody should make that. That being said, I feel like the boost so far have been too American centrist. So step up your game. The rest of the world sent from 77900. What is that? It looks like it's a postal code in the Czech Republic. Really? All right.

Czech Republic. Representing. That's nice to see. I agree. They have been very American-centric. Brent better boost in while he's in Berlin. Yeah. There you go.

It's because in the UK and in the EU, I believe people are A, a little more skeptical about SATs, and B, it's a little bit harder to participate. So we appreciate you even more. Wooden 501 comes in with 50,001 SATs. Hmm.

Hey, Rich Lobster! Not that I'm biased or anything, but 501 is a much better number than 500, says Wooden 501. So here's my happy 501 is a much better number than 500. It says wooden 501. So here's my happy 501 boost. I agree, actually. 500 is awesome.

It's technically the milestone. But like a little played out. Yeah. 501's the one where like after that, you got to show up and you just got to keep working. Season two. And you know what? It just keeps building. 502, it's like, okay, well, I'm still going.

So it's like, you know, maybe going fight so it's like you know maybe we should get 50 000 three four i'm just saying uh but yeah welcome to season two uh he says uh that uh he has uh just started listening in february of last year from dayton ohio area now he listens to every one of the jupiter broadcasting shows he even has his very own coder radio robe oh can't wait for the next 10 years of love. Woo! Go JB in general. Right on. Thank you, sir. Rotted Mood boosts in with 50,000 cents.

Boosting in about our recent Flatpak discussions. Rotted Mood, I love it. I already use it, and it's kinda already my cross-distro app store i'm totally fine to pay or donate for apps however good god no subscriptions please subscription software is one of the main reasons i left the osx ecosystem it's one of the things that's really bugging me about ios too it's like everything is an app subscription you mean you don't want

your calendar to cost you $30 a year? What's wrong with you? I think it's $50. I think Fantastica is like $50 a year. You want reminders? Premium. I know. Well, it's a good app, but...

Is it $50 good? No, in my opinion. Well, if it saves you $50 worth of your time, it can be. For people that are busy, maybe. Of course, I'm busy, but... Bitwarden is 10 bucks a year todoist is 30 something and then a calendar is 50 up like come on yeah no yeah like come on with bit warden being like provides way more value for more people and costs less than that are you

saying bit warden should up its prices so i think i agree everybody has subscription fatigue uh of course i have a membership program that i'm'm hoping people continue to sign up for because 2023 is looking like a bloodbath. But, you know, I do understand, too, at the same time. And I, of course, I mean, we're in the boost segment. If I could have it my way, I would just send them 50,000 sats or something like that when I download the app. But I don't run the world, I suppose. Speaking of 50,000 sats, we got exactly that from Internet Explorer. I hoard that which your kind covet. I believe Internet Explorer should be that. You know what? It's time for that to be a nickname. Yeah.

Yeah, that's a retro I can get behind. I think MS has given up the rights to it at this point. Let it die. Yeah. Simple, clean here. Just a happy episode 500. Oh. Thanks, Explorer. Thank you, Explorer. Legit salv a happy episode 500. Oh, thanks, Explorer.

Thank you, Explorer. Legit Salvage comes in with 46,809 sets. Wow, fantastic. Says belated congrats on episode 500. I'm sorry I missed it live. Here's my zip boost for a show and a little bit of Linux history. My first Linux experience was in 2001 in a high school PC repair class. First of all, that's an awesome class for high school.

My first Linux experience was with Mandrake on one of the lab machines. Amazing. Wow. That's so strange, though, for Mandrake, maybe, to be on a lab machine in school. Unfortunately, my career path was mostly stuck in a Microsoft world.

I didn't get to start back on Linux until 2019 when I started listening to your show. Wonderful. Comes in with another thousand stats to say, I was working at, oh my gosh, Wes, we got, do you see this? Okay. So first of all, before we get there, what's the zip code boost? Allen County, Indiana, it seems. Very nice.

But then he sends us a longitude and latitude because where he was working apparently didn't have a zip code. Oh, I'm wondering where this is. I'm going to pull this up here on Google Maps myself just so I can take a look at this because this is... So the longitude is 6446 by 6403. And where is this? It's Antarctica, I think.

Oh my goodness, it is Antarctica. That's special. Wow. All right, that's going to be a hard boost to beat, I think. That's special. Wow. All right. That's going to be a hard boost to beat, I think. That's very impressive.

Very nice. If I look on the satellite view, in fact, it is just an iceberg. I wonder if a legit salvage was down there, or legit salvage was doing a legitimate salvage down there. There is a ranger station or some kind of research station, actually, just a hair away from that pin.

That's got to be it. It's got to be it be a neat alex has got you figured out salvage i'm sorry savage nope slavage whatever it is palmerstation.com here we go palmerstation.com all right so legit salvage goes on to say i haven't missed an episode since he used to hang out there in wherever that is chatting linux with his workmate i'm excited about Linux Fest, and I shared the announcement with my company's team, Linux Channel. Heck yes, dude. Thank you. Prior obligations will likely prevent me from attending, so fingers crossed, for a blowout so I can do the next one. Oh, come on. How are we going to have a blowout if Salvage can't make it?

They did share. I mean, that's good. You're right. Okay, you're right. I'm walking off the edge. I was just about to have a blowout if salvage can't make it they did share i mean that's you know that's good you're right okay you're right i'm walking off the edge i was just about to have a panic attack if if a single listener doesn't make it i don't know i'm gonna be able to hold it together well chris it's unlikely that i would be there you know you you jerk you gotta kneel kneel come on try i'm gonna try you give me your boss's phone number. I'm going to give them a call tomorrow and we're going to have a conversation. I'm going to say hello. Hello. They wrapped up just by saying that that AI clip that we played in episode 500 genuinely made them feel uncomfortable. Oh, oh.

And that if I'm ever Midwest bound, they have a driveway big enough to park two full sized RVs. So first of all, one of you guys get an RV. Yeah. They have a driveway big enough to park two full-sized RVs. So first of all, when do you guys get an RV? Second of all, that really warms my heart when I see that because, you know, on a rough day, a guy can daydream about setting off across the country and doing pods from the road and knowing that there's a network of listeners out there that would give me a spot to park while I record a show. So appreciate it.

Thank you very much, Salvage, for the boost and for spreading the word about LinuxFest Northwest and for offering a parking spot. It's real sweet. The ever wonderful Martin DeBell boosted in with 10,000 sats this week. Saying hi, Chris, Wes, and Brent. I just listened to Office Hours 9. We hate crypto too. And I must say it was a great episode and not just for the boost discussion great discussions around rss and around technical debt as well i highly recommend this to all unplugged listeners i like the boosts because it enables you to read all the feedback i remember a time when chris didn't want to open his email inbox anymore because of the backlog. I also like the interactions.

Best regard, Martin DeBell. A time. Right now. All the time. Didn't you start this show for that whole reason of reading mail? It's always been an ongoing problem is too many emails or too many direct messages. Even this weekend, I was out camping in the back of my SUV and I was like on the edge of one bar of signal. And I'm trying to like respond to people, but like element is like barely

connecting. It's like, oh, it's rough. I just like this thing where our audience does the cross promos for us. I know. Actually, Brent, you'll agree, right? I think Office Hours episode nine, We Hate Crypto 2 is probably the episode we've gotten the most feedback about. Yeah. And I also think, Chris, when we did that episode, it just felt like a good one. You know that feeling we get sometimes? It's just like, yeah, that was a good one. And it turns out we were right. Officehours.hair slash 9 if you'd like to listen to that one.

Such a great URL. Fast 1 Marine also boosted in with 10 000 sats here are all my sats i've earned on fountain sadly i'm going back to pocket cast because fountain keeps restarting podcasts i'm in the middle of as well as some show feeds just not working i first found self-hosted and now listen here as well i love everything you do and keep up the great work, you guys. You might even see me at Linux Fest Northwest. Here's hoping. I hope so. I hope so.

Yeah, so first of all, thank you for thinking of us if you're leaving Fountain and you want to send those stats in. You know, I think the trickiest thing that the boosts have in terms of adoption right now is retention with the new podcast apps because they are new. And they're going up against apps that have been around for a decade. And they're implementing new features that these apps haven't even bothered to try yet, like live transcriptions and live streaming inside the app and chapters. That means that maybe some of the other features you're used to haven't gotten to that part of the list yet. Yeah, it is a nascent

period it's one though that in the last year has i can't even really think of a word to describe the rate of development um like if you have gone if you checked in on one of these apps and you take three months off and you come back it's a world of improvement but honestly i've also heard rumors that pocket cast is currently investigating, integrating all of the podcasting to the no features. That'd be massive. Yeah, it would.

Yeah. So I think the way to do it right now is to get Albie at get Albie.com toss some sats in there. You can actually top it off inside of Albie using moon pay, which is, I know crazy. And then you go to podcast index, you look up one of our shows and you can just boost right there from the

webpage. And then you don't got to switch your podcast app i think what's going to happen is like the next generation of existing podcast apps like your antenna pods and your pocket cast and your podcast at whoever i don't know what's name an app that i you know i'm sure i'm leaving apps overcast and no not overcastcast. Um, not Marco, but, the other developers when they do in a great boost, they're going to do it via Albi, I suspect. And so then you've already got all the plumbing set up and you can just use the podcast index website in the meantime,

or you can click through on the pod verse player on our website, using that little lightning bolt and a boost in that way. But, uh, thanks for, uh, as you're leaving, uh,

sending us a little, uh, a little boost show mascot the golden dragon boosts in with 3,160 sats since I don't have enough sats to send in my zip I'm sending in

my area code the first three are my AC hope to see you guys out near here someday and here in this case looks to be Wichita, Kansas. I like that name. That's how I'd say it all the time, you know? And then our dear dragon followed up with a row of ducks.

Never get old, right? If you hear me say it, that would never get boring. I could just keep doing that. Get it in every show, please. All charged up for Linux on a Monday. Let me tell you guys, this show is the best part of my Monday morning workflow. Along with possibly getting to listen to Coder Radio Live. It's a really solid way to get the day done.

Aw, well, thank you, Dragon. You know what? I think a big part of that thanks goes to our editor, Drew. He hustles in a Sunday evening to make sure the show gets out. And then generally west too and brent and not as much myself because i'm usually cooked by that point but they stick around and make sure everything's buttoned up and ready to go so that way it can go out the door as fast as possible and if you want it like right away if you're a member the member feeds go up basically

as fast as we can get them published after the show which is really just constrained by like file size and rendering times and stuff like that. So they go up pretty dang quick. Another row of ducks from Panic Ketchup. That's a great name. Hi team. I've been listening to Jupiter Broadcasting for at least eight years now. First time booster here as well. Awesome. Yeah. And then Panic followed up with the row of sticks to fix a typo. So thanks for the sense. Thanks for the first boost, Ketchup. That's awesome. OAGuy1 boosts in with a row of ducks.

Hello. I'm using NixOS on my Odroid H3+, and I'm loving it. I installed Plex with QuickSync. It was only four lines of config to make it work. I started my config in a VM before copying my configuration.nix to the real hardware. Everything just worked on the new hardware with almost zero effort. I'm sold.

So that is a real nice Nix perk. When I knew my Odroid was coming, but I didn't know how long it would take, I did the same thing on the dev one. I started building a Nix server. And you know what? It was a great practice to kind of figure out what not to do. And then I rebuilt it

again, and then I just moved that config over to the Odroid when the Odroid arrived. And I did an absolute minimum viable install on the Odroid, dropped the config on, did the old Nix rebuild switch, rebooted, and I had a server environment. Yeah, a real nice way to explore, because you know there's not really any

consequences. If you want to go backwards, you just go backwards. I think it was Squirrely Dave, but one of our Matrix members in the Nick's Nerds chat room pointed out that we're just, I think, around our year anniversary of this Nick's challenge. And he was wondering if we wanted to do a 2.0 challenge. So something for us to think about after the show. We might even get Alex on this round. for us to think about after the show. We might even get Alex on this round. Yeah, well, we need somebody to tell us what it's like to deploy Nix using Ansible.

Right. Yes, of course. I'm going to do Nix in a Docker of an Alex C with Ansible orchestrated with Terraform. Running under Proxmox, of course, right? Yes. Purple Dog comes in with a row of ducks listening from Liverpool, UK, while walking the dogs. Discovered the network with self-hosted right around episode one and quickly switched to

the all-shows feed right on. Speaking of which, Wes, is it broken? Episode 501 is the last one in there. No Coder 508 or 509. Yeah, it has been broken this week. Apologies, everyone. But it should be all fixed up for this episode. We'll have caught up, well,

hopefully by the time you're hearing this. Yeah. Yeah, a little ninja chop. You know, we are actually on the back end, behind the scenes, reworking all our RSS feeds for multiple reasons. And one of them is, I think our hosting provider has just had to start

rate limiting as costs have gone up over the years. And so sometimes when we're publishing and that rate limit hits, multiple reasons and one of them is i think our hosting provider has just had to start rate limiting as costs have gone up over the years and so sometimes when we're publishing and that rate limit hits we kind of miss this opera this window of opportunity to get the feeds updated it's tricky but wes is on top of it he knows about it he's the man with the plan fair day fedora boosted in with a row of ducks my recommendation for the it's been a long road boost is the date of the NX-01 launch, 160-421-51. If someone does boost that, I think it's safe to say they earned the entire song. Okay, well, I hate this song and I hate hate everything about this song, and this song haunts me.

So I feel like I agree that Faraday Fedora's intention that it needs to be a big boost, if you're going to torture me. But I feel like, I don't think anybody's going to spend that much money, right? So what if instead, it still needs to be high though what if instead we set it to the max speed that the nxl1 could achieve which is warp 502 so 502 000 sets if you send 502 000 stats into the show i'll play that's been a long time theme the entire no no no no not what he said no no not play yeah he says they earned the whole song. That would have to be... Do you understand how much time you'd be buying in this show? There'd have to be an insane amount of sets. But I'm saying for $502,000, I'll play a clip of it.

And you're still torturing me. Because even just now thinking about it, my skin's crawling. Are you willing to sing along to this song? All right, I'll sing along. You gotta do it too though, Wes. Alright, alright. Okay, Faraday. 502,000 sats.

You might have to remind me because I'm going to black this. I'm going to completely clear this out. I am like Mission Men in Black style, like flashing my memory, clearing it after this. So you may have to remind me in the boost. I'll get the whiskey. Faraday followed up with another row of like flashing my memory, clearing it after this. So you may have to remind me in the boost. I'll get the whiskey. Ugh. Faraday followed up with another row of ducks,

saying, I've come to the conclusion that about two-thirds of the JB community are in fact Canadians. So hello from Vancouver Island, BC, the even more Pacific Northwest to your Pacific Northwest. Vancouver Island is the most hardcore pacific northwest that i think out there so i'm just surprised to hear you say that chris what what really it's exposed

it's exposed to the elements of the pacific ocean all right like if we get a storm that comes from the pacific ocean which is where all our storms come from uh they take it right in the face you know i mean it's beautiful it's treacherous it's those lobes too that's what we use wales for in england wales is an island they're right out there taking the flack and then england gets it nice and easy you got it it's exactly it so i i don't uh i don't take away their pacific northwestness at all i hope they're wearing their flannel that's all i hope about that's my concern zac attack boosted in with 10,000 sats as well. Started playing with DistroBox after hearing about it in episode 496 on OpenSUSE at Tumbleweed.

I defiantly see the advantage of containerization and being able to pull software from other distributions. But I was wondering if you guys got any deeper into it and what your thoughts are on it did he mean defiantly or definitely definitely probably probably definitely autocorrect you know autocorrect probably got him yeah um i think there is something to it especially if you're on uh ubuntu or tumbleweed or fedora i could really see the advantage to something like distro box tumbleweed or fedora i could really see the advantage to something like distro box i'm on nix now so you know i'm good that always just slides in there doesn't it i'm on nix by the way yeah by the way i run nix by the way but um one of the really really rad things about nix is it's very easy to stand up shells very quickly so like a lot of times wes will sit down in one of my

machines and he'll he'll want a tool that i haven't installed because it's one of his go-tos and it's not one that I use. And he just immediately is able to just spin up a shell that has that tool installed and it's ready to go. It takes just as long as it takes for the packages to get grabbed. There's always going to do some funky networking stuff you'll always run against the bumpers a little bit for but for basic application stuff yeah it's uh it's a useful tool i think it's a good disclaimer and then we got a couple of boosts that were below the 2000 cutoff limit but i wanted to pull them forward just because they were from first timers and i thought that was pretty neat feral hippie comes in with 420 sats and i think

they're both using Fountain. And when you're listening, it can take a while to earn 2,000. So they write, I just discovered this show about a week ago in the Fountain app. It's a good mix of entertaining and educational for Linux noob, even though I don't understand much of it. Over the past year, I've been working on removing Microsoft and Google from my life. I'm running Ubuntu and Drafting OS. Both of these have been easier than expected.

Getting chickens is a great idea, by the way. Did I mention that somewhere in the show or maybe on the pre-show? Stop eating. You did. Stop eating SE grocery store eggs. Getting chickens has just been as liberating as changing to Linux. Well, I love that, Feral Hippie. Thank you. And I wanted to stop and just say, we got a lot of boosts over the last week for people that are listening for the very first time because they discovered the show with episode 499 and 500 because we made it to the top of the charts again and it's it's just incredible it's incredible this happens every single time and i want to once again thank everybody who stepped up to support us because we brought on new folks and for a lin Linux podcast to be growing like this at episode 500, almost 10 years in, I

never could have expected this. It doesn't happen like this. So very, very, very, very thankful. And it's great to have Feral Hippie on board. And then our last one, another one I wanted to pull forward, Dexord came in with 500 sets, just boosting to keep the feedback coming in. I've been listening for almost four years now and would love to see you guys stop by here

in 89012 sometime soon. And you looked that up there, Wes, didn't you? Yeah, it looks like to Henderson near Vegas in Clark County, Nevada. That seems like that could happen. I mean, trade shows happen a lot in Vegas. I've never been to Vegas. What? I know.

That is so surprising oh man well now it's on like donkey kong now it's on you know i mean shoot i go down there every other few weeks to go save alex when he's on some bender so my goodness yeah tell me about it right yeah i've never been either you've got to be kidding me okay the thing about vegas is it's it's just an overpriced resort for adults like if you want to go and blow a thing about vegas is it's it's just an overpriced resort for adults like if you want to go and blow a thousand dollars vegas is the place to do it if you want to indulge um if you want you know i mean it is a bit of a human experience there's that it's i've gone several times because of tech events i've been down there for that and then i've gone down there

for some vacation and holidays not a'm not a gambler, but... No. I think I might be scarred because I spent a week there for reInvent in October. And I'm still recovering, I think. Yeah. I need to go about once every five years. So I'd be happy to go with you guys. It's been about five years.

Take you down there. You know what? And flights, I think, from Paine Field to Vegas are quite cheap. You got to look that up. Now I'm getting excited. Boost in for the Vegas trip. JB Fest. Yeah, do a quick,

I very wanted to do a meetup in Olympia at the end of April, but now I'm thinking let's go to Vegas. Thank you everybody who boosted in. If you'd like to try out one of these new podcast apps that are pushing the edge of development, newpodcastapps.com. I'm on Podverse.

Oh, I should mention too, Podverse is looking for Android developers specifically that have some Kotlin experience. Even somebody who's just really skilled at getting like a good Kotlin environment set up, the Podverse team would love to hear from you. You can find them on GitHub. It'd be a great way to support a GPL podcasting 2.0 app. If you don't want to switch your damn app, well, just get Albie. Get Albie.com and then head over to the podcast index, find one of our shows over there and boost in using the webpage. and then head over to the podcast index find one of our shows over there and boost in using the webpage. You know maybe you already have an app but you haven't been doing something to listen to podcasts on the web or to like share them with friends and family

Popverse is freaking great for that too. Freaking great for that. Web player is fantastic. Share feature is fantastic. Great for getting clips. You know as we wrap up here I'm just trying to think like in a few weeks what's going to be the outcome of what we talked about today because Docker gave folks 30 days. We're about seven days by the time this episode, well, almost seven days into that. So we've got three weeks left. What's going to break?

Will things break? Is it really going to be any different? It'll be interesting to look back in just a few weeks time. Sometimes we have to wait years for the stuff to start to play out. But this time, it's like, we'll know in about a month. Less than a month, we'll know. 30 days. Yep. That's how you treat enterprise customers and get them to like you. Yeah, they love that.

Yeah, they really like that. Remember how people got upset when Red Hat gave them a year's notice about CentOS? And this is essentially three weeks notice, is really what it is. By the time you've had your team meeting and discussed it and all that kind of stuff. Oh, so we feel for you guys out there that have to go through this. Poor CI pipelines.

If you want more show, remember that the Leplug gets together every single Sunday. And if you're a member, you get the full uncut version or you can add free, nicely edited version. It's your choice. You can subscribe. Of course, we've got a link at linuxunplugged.com. You could also join our mumble room and listen to the show live in a low latency Opus stream using a free software stack, or you can get the video stream when it works at jupyter.tube. We're back here every single Sunday at noon Pacific, 3 p.m. Eastern. Yeah, that's right.

That's how we do it. And if you want some more Linux news, well, linuxactionnews.com. Wes and I broke down the Docker Hub news, amongst other things. There's a packed episode, actually. So this is one I give a big old recommendation. If you want to get more Alex,

you can find him on Self Hosted. He's also got a brand new YouTube channel, which we'll have a link in the show notes for. You can find that. And of course, links to everything we talked about today are over at linuxunplugged.com slash, what is it, Wes? 502? 502. Oof. Who knew? Well, I guess you did. Well, and, you know, just subscribe to the RSS in case maybe we have a 503.

You never know. See you next Sunday. Thank you. you