LINUX Unplugged - 518: Race To Immutability

Episode Date: July 10, 2023

Can Ubuntu make a great immutable desktop? We're trying the brand-new "Everything is a Snap" Ubuntu Core Desktop.

Hello, friends, and welcome into your weekly Linux talk show. My name is Chris. My name is Lance. And my name is Brent. Hello, gentlemen. Well, coming up on the show today, Canonical recently announced a brand new project with the goal to create an immutable desktop out of their Ubuntu core project.

So today we're going to give the all snap distro a try. The Ubuntu core desktop. It's brand new. We're going to tell you about it and share our thoughts about using it and all of that. We'll round out the show with a really great pick, some great boosts and a lot more. So before we go any further, I want to say good morning to our friends at Tailscale. Tailscale is a flat mesh VPN where your machines talk directly to each other, protected by WireGuard.

You can set it up in minutes. It is the next generation of VPNs. It's what we hoped WireGuard would make possible. Go upgrade your VPN technology and try it for free for up to 100 devices. It's not a limited time thing. 100 devices at tailscale.com slash Linux Unplugged. And time-appropriate greetings

to our virtual lug. Hello Mumble Room. Welcome in. Hello. Nice to see the showing popping back up now that we're getting on our regular schedule. Hello to all of you up there in the quiet listening too. Nice to see the showing popping back up now that we're getting on our regular schedule. Hello to all of you up there in the quiet listening to. Nice to see some familiar faces in there, some long timers stopping in today. I'm really looking forward to today's topic because Brent and I were just kind of talking on the live stream that this is one of those episodes where we were all kind of geeking out at the same time over the,

we basically spent our whole weekend playing with Ubuntu core and then chatting in real time while we were trying different stuff and giving each other hot tips and challenging each other to try different things. So this is one of those episodes that we spent the whole weekend just playing around with, and we're really looking forward to sharing what we found. So let's start with a bit of show news in housekeeping. And Brent's going to be in Berlin coming up on July 22nd, maybe the week after. That's still kind of in flex, right, Brent?

I think it's fair to those who are trying to attend to lean heavy on July 22. If that needs to change, or maybe I'll just have two meetups. I mean, that's what happened last time. We'll be sure to let you know. So please join the Berlin Buds Matrix room if you can. There's information streaming in there constantly and lots of suggestions on places to eat and places that I didn't try last time or see last time. So join us in there and updates will be shared. But please also RSVP on the meetup page so we have an idea of how many people might be interested and I will update as soon as we get, you know,

solid location and all of that stuff, but we'd love to see you if we can. It's going to be great. Berlin's so much fun. Brent had to go back and do it again. Just also a couple of network developments. We want you to be aware of. We're trying something brand new with our office hours show,

which is a show that we make specifically for the Jupyter Broadcasting community. We have details at office.hair slash 32, and we're going to a full value for value model, no sponsorships on that, and we'll have milestones that we have that we're looking for for production releases. And all the details in the brand new format are in Office Hours 32, and we'll have more details in 33 as well. It's a big experiment. So if you're curious to see what we're experimenting with, check it out over there.

It's stuff that now you don't have to hear about at Linux Unplugged 2. And then one last thing that we want you to know about, because this one may impact the show a little bit. During this ad apocalypse summer that we seem to be entering, it is ad winter for podcasts and the industry is going through some big shifts in the way that advertising is done

and so while these transitions are taking place and while we kind of want to determine the best route for linux action news and while we're looking for the right sponsors because we don't currently have them for linux action news we're putting it on hiatus we're calling for the right sponsors because we don't currently have them for Linux Action News. We're putting it on hiatus. We're calling it a summer break. We're hoping it's just for the summer. It's really that is going to be driven by the ad market. And we have more details in Linux Action News 299. So LinuxActionNews.com slash 299. And what we're going to do in the meantime is if there's a big story that really deserves some attention, we'll probably just start Linux Unplugged off with that story. Kind of like we used to do back in the old days. We'd kind of talk about one or two major news stories.

And when Linux Action News started, we kind of took that out a lot. We're going to bring it back for a little bit while Linux Action News is on hiatus. We'll miss it already. I sure do. Have you realized this is the first week that we're not doing it?

Yeah. It's odd. It's weird. It's weird. The timing worked out because it's a self hosted week for me so give me a little more bandwidth so that's nice too i was about to say you know i don't and it's not going to be really a whole it's more of a question of well what's

going to decide to fill that time probably uh probably self-hosted um i wonder though we'll see it's i i'm kind of using the opportunity of slow ads instead of trying to go crazy and just ram a bunch of different stuff in and and get a bunch of deals i'm gonna just kind of live leaner and meaner as long as i can it might not be able to sustain it for very long and use that downtime to kind of just um i don't know have a little more bandwidth in life and just see what happens because i don't really know it's been so long i don't lean into the things you're trying to do yeah you've got a lot going on i mean you know linux action is every week and it was at episode 299 this shows every single week right so just that alone is a lot to keep up with and then you sprinkling office hours and self-hosted and

anything extra that we're doing and it's um it's a lot so i thought we got star trek to watch yeah while while the things are slow uh I'll pull back a little bit. And then when things pick back up, we'll come back with the next section is 300. We just wanted you all to be aware of that because you may hear us talking about some new stories. If something's worth discussing in a future episode of Linux Unplugged. And that's kind of where you'll find that in the meantime. So just a few weeks ago, Canonical announced they are extending the ubuntu core project into the desktop realm and that this would be their foray into an immutable desktop completely

based on snaps now ubuntu core that's been around for a really long time and here's how canonical pitches it ubuntu core is an app-centric embedded operating system based on Ubuntu from Canonical. All components are containerized in snaps with the benefit of a lean footprint, security hardening, and composable system images. It is trusted by IoT leaders to realize their project. With an app-centric Ubuntu, developers can focus on building apps, while low-level components are provided and maintained by Canonical. This enables teams of any size to build highly secure embedded devices

quickly and cost-effectively. And we've been following this immutable desktop trend for quite a while. We've talked about Silverblue on the show. We've talked about Nix and some other OS tree-based ones. I think another one we've mentioned before on the show we've talked about nix and some other os tree based ones i think uh isn't um i think another one we've mentioned before on the show is endless and this is canonical's take on it and they're enabling it all with snaps and the promise that they write uh this is something that was posted on their blog by oliver smith a few weeks ago the promise they write is enabling the easy swapping out of different components they say security it's more difficult for malicious software to make changes to the system they claim also that

they believe this will be more stable because system files can't be altered or deleted by accident it's also reproducible so you can have os's that have identical builds from boot to boot and it's manageable you know especially if you tie it in with something like juju or if you just manage snaps centrally they say it has a lot of benefits there are some drawbacks some reduced flexibility some limited compatibility it needs more storage in some cases and the developer experience is a little more complicated but um you know it seems that this is their attempt to kind of say this is our offering and we think we can start with Ubuntu Core and build the desktop on top of that. And I'm kind of actually surprised this wasn't already a thing. But Ubuntu Core has really had that IoT focus.

It's really had that server side focus. Yeah, I mean, it's just a very different experience. I just, I hadn't used it for a long time, so I figured I'd try it as part of this just little experiment. When you first stand up a regular Ubuntu core system, it doesn't even have a normal setup process. It sort of auto-expands, configures things, and then presents you with a prompt to log in with your canonical Ubuntu Pro ID, which it will then use to fetch from your account an SSH key that it will configure for the box, and then you can log into it. There's no regular TTY, there's no... You gotta use your canonical

single sign-on account. And you can tell it's optimized for some specific, you know, edge IoT type applications where you've got the stuff out there in the fields. It's gonna call home anyway, it's gonna get configured.

But yeah, it is... I kind of think that makes maybe the transition to using at least some of that in the desktop space a little more, you know, obviously they've got the Snap side, but there's all the other pieces to make it a consistent experience.

Yeah, what do you think about signing into your desktop using a single sign-on from Canonical? It might depend on the context. It could make sense on my, you know, if it's like tied into my single sign-on from my employer. Right, right. It's an employer-provided system. Yeah. Yeah, at home, I don't know if that makes as much sense, does it?

But if it's an employer-provided system, yeah, maybe. Okay, all right. I got to say, gentlemen, I didn't have to sign into anything. So I wonder if we took different routes or something. Oh, no, that was just when I was using the main Ubuntu core, not the desktop, like experimental desktop builds that we've been trying out. Got it.

Okay, we'll get to how we solved that problem in a second here, I think. But I was curious about the article that, Chris, you mentioned that Oliver wrote. Just about, it showcased a variety of different ways of tackling the idea of an immutable desktop. And we've seen a few different strategies. It seems maybe with Canonical's approach, it's a little bit different. Although I wanted to kind of lean on your expertise and see what you think. They call it composable. You know, it's immutability plus composability. And I think they just kind of broke it up into many more slices

so that you don't have quite as much of a immutable OS level blob with applications on top. Curious what you guys think and what you think is an advantage here. This is tricky because there's so many different takes at how to do immutable, right?

Like in Canonical's examples here, they really don't describe how Nix does it. i actually think i prefer nix's approach the most the applications are included in that base system and i rebuild and they get updated their vision is you have everything kind of isolated the kernel is its own snap the things you need to bring the system up the base layer is a snap layer i think even snapd itself is a snap incredibly and then all of the apps on top of them this is where the modularity and their claim of composability comes from is you could define an ubuntu core desktop that you just predefined has these snaps installed and when you when you generate that image it will

deploy it with those things pre-installed those individual components and there's so many damn things that are snapped up it's like the entire kde application suite is over there right like you could pretty much add anything to your base system and then build the image and it's in there but they're all snaps um which you guys had a lot of fun playing around with i think uh we'll get to that in a moment. But I think as opposed to like a Chrome OS model or a Mac OS model where they're doing image-based updates and they're flipping images, right, or in the case of like Silver Blue World switching OS tree or in the case of OpenSUSE where it's actually using ButterFS to do snapshots

and it's switching between file system layer snapshots, what they're doing here is each component is a modular snap and they're updating it through the snap mechanism they're adding it through the snap mechanism uh so it's not like through at a file system layer it's more like a snap level but all of the components are snaps yeah it looks like they've got some hooks set up with snapd2 now so like as these updates happen then snapd can make sure that whatever other little bits of actions might need to happen on the system. Like if you update

the gadget snap, which is the bootloader and default configuration and stuff, or the kernel, right? If you update the kernel, you probably need to go make sure all the boot systems

are up to date and aligned with the new system. But yeah, you've got, you know, your kernel can update at whatever cadence. And then as you, if you're happy,

as long as you're happy packaging and deploying via the snap setup, it's sort of just a minimal, like here's the most robust minimal setup we can give you to run Snaps on top of. And then you as a developer, right, part of the whole Snap idea is like,

you're then in control of handling, at least via the store, deploying and updating your Snap, and then the systems will all just consume it. Now, you get everything from the desktop environment layered on top there. Let's talk about your experiences using it do you guys think maybe first we should briefly cover how you get the images and all that because it's not maybe immediately obvious and we could make it a little bit easier with a

couple of links in the show notes so i think like one thing we should toss in there is the ubuntu core desktop github because you can find an image to download on canonical's mirror but it seems like if you want the adest if you want to try the immutable desktop version of Ubuntu, the best place to get a current image is actually from the GitHub project. And you have to be signed in, and then there's an image link that you can download, and you can extract that. I think that's where we should send people, right? That seems to be the best image to get their hands on.

Yeah, that's what we've been playing with anyway. And this is probably a signifier of the state of things generally, right? It wasn't that long ago that we saw this, you know, this post on the blog. And maybe this is something of a preview, preview, preview. I don't know. It's just output from CI actions. We're just trying them as they come out. And it's not clear exactly what's expected to work and what isn't yet.

Yeah, and I think maybe like the real first public like beta try of this is going to be in April of next year, probably, is kind of what they've implied. So that's this is early days, but if you want to try it, that's where you go. We'll have a link to that in the show notes. And I kind of see this as a very fascinating experiment by Canonical, because if you're really all in on the Ubuntu

landscape, just picture the possibility, boys. You can manage and deploy all of this with juju and you need to deploy ubuntu core out there to your edge devices you package your special vendor app and stuff your dashboard or whatever it is you package that up as a snap you deploy this as part of a snap you could do this for servers you could do this for iot devices but you could also see how a composable ubuntu like this that's really rock solid would be awesome for, say, factory floor stations where people have a Libre sheet up all the time and they're entering in numbers. Or maybe you got like a kind of just set of works machines where people just sit down and they do email and they do spreadsheet and they do web browsing.

And you want to be able to just roll out updates to those things and keep them compliant simply and quickly. They've already got Slack and Firefox ready to go. They log in. Yeah. You can see if you're already in Ubuntu shop and if you're using some of the Ubuntu management services too, so you can deploy and update some of this stuff remotely, it gets real spicy.

And, you know, say what you will about snaps, and there's plenty to say, but compared to trying to figure out, like, targeting sort of regular linux desktops you've at least got maybe a more directed streamlined and quote-unquote modern setup for developers that you got to say like hey go run this on here at least you've got you know you've got the snapcraft tooling you've got a yaml file to write in and you've got some guides to you know to get started and a community um so this is the value prop now does it live up to this?

We'll get to that. I'm curious too, like we've seen a variety of immutable Linux desktops come about in the last several years. I mean, we touched on many, many of them last summer in our summer of immutability.

I'm curious if you boys think that this is canonical trying to kind of keep up. So they're like, oh, well, we should probably have one of these too because everyone else seems to have it. So this is a hedge on maybe future compute. Or do you think they're actually really trying

to put a lot of effort into this to make it something really special? Well, you know, as you say, Brent, I don't think it's my cup of tea, but the reason why I am interested in this project is because I do feel like it is a bit of a validation of the concept in space. I'm not saying I think this isn't canonical saying this is the desktop of the future for everybody. But I think it is canonical saying we think this is an important of category that we're going to dedicate resources behind it. And now it seems like every major Linux distro vendor is doing that.

It's also sort of an interesting test case validation of stress test of the Snap ecosystem and like what's available in Snaps. And then also how well can the technology stretch to like really do well as a cohesive system that packages everything in Snaps, including the tricky graphical desktop layers. Linode.com slash unplugged. Head on over there to get $100 in 60-day credit and support the show. And while you're there, check out the exciting news. Linode's now part of Akamai.

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So head on over right now. It's linode.com slash unplugged. So head on over right now. It's linode.com slash unplugged. Now, I wanted to share how I got this running on my system. Wes, you probably did it some crazy wacky way that we'll hear about in a second here. But I ended up using GNOME boxes. And Chris, you touted the benefits of GNOME boxes for its simplicity in the pre-show for members. And I totally agree.

Like, I did have to kind of play with it to get it working, though. So I thought I'd give listeners a few tips. Once you've grabbed the image, which we have linked to and is fairly straightforward, you do have to uncompress it. But not just once. You do have to uncompress it twice. Because there's an image.zip. And in that, there's a pc.tar.gz.

And in that, there's a pc.img, which is what you're looking for. So somehow it goes from like a 400 meg file to a 12 gig file after all that, which is impressive. Yeah. And then so once you've got that kind of setup, you've got your image ready to go. In GNOME boxes, you can kind of trick it to get some settings that are going to work for you. So what I did was I created a new VM from a file, chose Ubuntu, I don't know, the latest LTS 2204. And that kind of sets some defaults for you. And the most important one is it offers the ability to choose UEFI as a boot sequence, which is essential. So you need to make sure to do it in a way that you can offer that to your VM.

And I don't think, Wes, that that's true of the regular Ubuntu Core, but it seems true for the desktop build, at least. Is that what you saw? Yeah, it seemed like Ubuntu Core had some compatibility to support legacy BIOS systems, whereas, yeah, if you tried to boot this build anyway, it just says, please try again an EFI system, which, thankfully, yeah, as Brent, you're noticing

these days is easier and easier to do, even in virtualized environments. I agree completely. The other trick I would say is I initially tried this in a VM with about 8 gigs of RAM. And that seems fine, but I did run into issues where I did the install process, which is kind of automated and a beautiful thing to just watch.

And then my system just grinded down to a halt when I was trying to add usernames and go through kind of the initial setup process. And so I tested it again with more RAM and it seemed like that problem never existed. Now I will say the system with eight gigs that I installed, once I kind of grindingly got through that process, uh, I rebooted it and then it was super snappy. Uh, see what I did. I didn't mean that. Um, it was really fast after that. So it might just be some artifacts from the install process that caused that slowdown i mean it's super early days but anyways that's a little hint as well i would say well so that was one of the i think

most obvious questions that people are going to have when they want to hear about using a fully snap based system uh what the heck's the performance like? Is it dog slow? I know, Wes, you tried it in VM and on physical hardware. What were your observations about the performance of a fully snapped-up Ubuntu? Hmm. You know, there's enough going on that it was a little hard to tell

because I did run it on a non-virtualized setup, but it was running off a flash drive, so disk operations were slow. The disk operations in the VM are snappy, but it's still a VM with, you know, right now it's LLVM pipe graphics, etc. But I'd say Gnome felt like Gnome. So on that side of it,

I was kind of impressed. Yeah, and I noticed, like, application launching seemed to be pretty consistent with what you'd expect on Ubuntu. I don't know, maybe some stuff is pre-mounted or how it works with snaps exactly. But what about you, Brent? How did you feel the performance was? Of everything that was installed by default, which is quite minimal given this is early days, that stuff seemed very snappy when it was you know when i solved that sort of a gig issue but

under normal you know a fresh boot it it seemed quite performant for me in a vm you know that's a big asterisk there where it did sort of break down was trying to install other snaps that weren't installed by default what we tried to install a few things. And I think this is where it comes down to, like, there are a few interesting cases to solve here. My go-to, Chris, as you sort of taught me, just try installing HTOP, see what happens. And of course, there's a snap for that. I installed it and it kind of had a hard time.

But I think that's related to it being just a terminal application and there's some permission stuff going on there. I think the real point I'm trying to make is I also tried to install VLC, which installed great, but I really couldn't, it just wasn't, it would never launch. And I was really disappointed by that. But in sort of a turn of events, I did a reboot and then it launched and worked. The downside was it took like 20, 25 seconds to sort of come up. I don't know if that's an initial snap state. A lot of, I don't know, caching going on there or something. So that was slightly disappointing, I would say.

But things like Firefox came up really quickly. And I also chose to install Thunderbird, which wasn't installed by default. And that came up really quickly too. So there's some stuff to look into there, but it was kind of a mixed bag, I would say. Yeah, that's one of the angles where it's a little hard with this super early look to tell exactly what's supposed to work and what's not.

So as Brent mentioned, there are, you know, there are plenty of terminal snaps out there, CLI-focused snaps. So far, I haven't got any of those to work, even though, like, they would, you know,

I have used them on other snap-based systems. But you're also in a user that doesn't have sudo, that has various errors. There's a ton of different errors when you look at the logs or sort of try to do things like you seem to be restricted from accessing any file

that begins with a dot in your home dir so you can't go add stuff in there you know I think there are ways for the system to do it but just as a user using like terminal for example so there's definitely this is not a normal system and it's not clear what all has or will need to be adapted to make it work.

But some stuff still just works. It's still kind of an Ubuntu system. Like I was able to download the regular Reaper binary and run that. It downloads after I gave Firefox home der permission in the Snap store so that I could access and actually do downloads. So it's an interesting environment. That's for sure. The other thing that's, I think, noteworthy about it is there's a couple, and I think they're Flutter-based,

desktop apps that they're shipping in here. And Brent, you played around with kind of this workshop app. Yeah, I know. Anytime we try a new distribution, I always go diving to see if, you know, you can find a little something you didn't expect. And for me, this time around, that was an application here called workshops. And I didn't find that name very descriptive. I was like, I've not heard of this before. And it only

had a little terminal icon. So I was very curious, of course, I have to click on this thing. And, uh, it turns out it's an LXD based VM and container manager that at least I didn't know about. But we did include in the show notes some links both to the GitHub and Snap Store workshops. If you look for it in the Snap Store, it doesn't come up in searches, which is very curious, although I was able to find a link to it. So it's I don't know what's going on there. But Wes, did you get a chance to look into this or at least some of the parts on github because i'm curious what you think how new you think it is and uh its potential here yeah i looked at it a little bit i did try it um it's minimal but uh enjoyable easy to use i like

that it you know you can have graphical and audio connection set up. It's got enough power to do that, but you can also just have it spin up like a terminal for you. So I think this is maybe playing in a similar space to what you get with tools like Fedora Toolbox, where it's sort of a, all right, well, you've got this immutable, sort of hard-to-change user land that you're dumped into here. You probably need an area where you have more control to test tools,

make tools that are going to be used in other environments, set up dev environments, and workshops looks like a nice way to do that. Yeah, it has a lot of things. It has Amazon Linux, Kali, Gentoo, OpenSUSE, Oracle, Alma, Rocky. You can go and then you can get their individual

releases, and then it'll create that environment for you. It's like the it's like the idea of like you said wes is the idea of fedora toolbox but i'd say like taken maybe to like the next i the next level like if you would take toolbox and took it a little bit further forward and created a flutter based gui to go to go with it but it gives you an example of some of the tooling they're building in which i think is pretty. You also had some mixed results with like software updates and whatnot, right, Brent? Yeah, I didn't quite end up understanding how updates occur. I, in the fresh Snap store that they include there, it seemed like you can choose when some of the

snaps update, which as far as I'm been aware up to date, snaps have often just update in the background. I would imagine that perhaps adds a little, well, I'll be curious to see how they do it in the future, but I did have an update to Ubuntu core 22, which was curious because I was grabbing the freshest image. And that just lingered seemingly forever and had pegged my CPU to probably at least 10% of Snapd just kind of sitting there doing that, and it never came around. I mean, there's work to do there, I think. I think you had that update, or it's possible to have an update, because think about it. They're just bundling whatever the latest is at build time in i think when they build that initial system and then because they're all modular snaps they can update that up that separate core snap right separately whatever fair enough i guess uh now i

feel slightly embarrassed because it's kind of the whole point right the all these pieces can update individually and not necessarily affect the others but we're also so used to having a you know traditional install process where instead of expanding so used to having a, you know, traditional install process where instead of expanding from some like seed thing, you know, you go, especially if you have network access anyway, you just go install all the latest packages right out of the repo,

but a different world. So kind of looking at what we've seen so far, I don't feel like we can come to a final judgment, but it is a very canonical approach to this problem. It's so would have been simpler to do this at the file system layer it would have been infinitely simpler and a lot of the edge cases that you gentlemen have talked about implemented that way where you just do like an image swap at boot or something like that probably would have made this simpler but i could see the advantage to the individual modularity level.

That is a little bit trickier to do on most Linux distributions, and they're solving a problem that sometimes is a big use case for certain enterprises. Right. I mean, including stuff like, at least if you're only allowing or using strictly confined snaps, that you have a modern approach that you expect from the mobile world for allowing permissions to and from things that you would not get with a more traditional sort of desktop, even with, you know, immutable layers. Yeah, I don't think it's for us. I mean, I don't know, Brent, maybe you want to stick with it.

I mean, what are your thoughts? I don't think, are any of us really sticking with this? Well, I will say this is the first time I'm excited about something Ubuntu in quite a while. Oh, really? Yeah. I came out of this feeling like, huh, I'm actually like really kind of curious where this is going to head. And I would play with this like every couple of months to see what they're doing. I don't know if it would be for me because I don't think we have the whole picture yet.

I mean, it's kind of early, but it seems like maybe this actually is a really nice use of snaps. And I want to see where that goes. Their effort behind that Steam snap, you know, their gaming snap thing they're working on, kind of makes a little bit more sense in this world, doesn't it? I was thinking I could, you know, I wouldn't mind trying and setting up a gaming setup

with something like this and just installing Steam that way and kind of knowing that I didn't try to use it for anything else. It would just stay like that and work and be easy to reset up and reconfigure. Wes did kind of challenge me to try Steam. And I was actually very excited because it came up and did the regular Steam updates, which i thought was at least a huge success but then every time after that i tried to launch it it just never did anything so i wonder if something like that would work better if we had this on like a real box with like a real graphics setup and yeah real goopoo in there yeah one of those i want to get the pulse from the audience so boost

in and let us know what your take is on immutable desktops. If you think it's for you, if you've tried them, if you're avoiding them, because like they, this is trying to solve that customizability problem, right? This is where you can mix and match and make it your own. And, uh, they're, it's their take on it at least. So let us know what you think about it, because we're trying to gauge where the audience is at on this. I'm happy to see him work on it. I'm definitely check it in in fact i was thinking like i'll probably just be this would be one of the spins quote unquote i try now at every like major release it might be the thing that makes me learn more about snaps i was definitely feeling hindered just because i want to get into like the weird you know the nitty-gritty stuff and tweak it and figure out what you can tweak and rebuild uh i'm gonna need to learn more about snaps and snap brush. Yeah, I could tell that my snap, my snap foo had gotten a little rusty. And I will admit that the aesthetic of all of those mounts does still bother me. And I'm kind of just honestly surprised that they haven't aliased the flags to just clear that stuff up.

I mean, I guess technically you want want it but i'd rather have to see all those loop mounts and whatnot with a flag i think they do on in here anyway okay at least a little old yeah df doesn't show oh i did a mountain it's all of them so yeah yeah yeah and what about when you do lsbk like that's a mess it's just the mounts the one that really gets me because i just want i want i actually want to see what physical devices are mounted. That's all I really want. And I just wish they would alias the flags and just give me that behavior like it was on a regular Linux system. I know it's a small aesthetic thing.

Although here they're probably even more important because, you know, they're a big chunk of Azure system. Yeah. I just feel like I got to live with it. Embrace the snaps. I mean, honestly, guys, when you see it, doesn't it kind of gross you out a little bit to see all those mounts and everything? It just looks like a mess, right?

I don't love them on my regular Linux systems, but somehow here they bother me less. I feel like maybe it's the old computer guy in me, but these software file user space mount things were never really the best, most reliable. And then you just build a whole thing around them and then you have to put it in my face. I just, I've, I've struggled with that since snaps have come out and I thought for sure I'd get used to it. And it's still to this day, bothers me a little bit. And maybe I'm alone. I don't know if you're out there, if you feel me, let me know, you know, clean Mount crew represent. That's what I say, But I'm really, I am really, I tease, but I am really happy to see it. And we'll definitely be keeping an eye on the Ubuntu core desktop. We'll have links in the notes. Collide.com slash unplugged. If you work in

security or if you're an IT and your company has Okta, this message is really for you. Have you noticed that the past few years, like the majority of data breaches and hacks that you read about seem to all have something in common? It's employees. It's sometimes it's an employee's device gets hacked because of maybe some unpatched software. Sometimes employees leave data in the wrong places. And, you know, there's always just phishing attacks that happen to everyday employees all the time. The problem here isn't really the end users, it's the solutions that are supposed to be protecting these end users. And it doesn't really have to be this way, where it's always a burden for IT. Imagine a world where only secure devices can access your cloud apps. In this world, say phish credentials, they're useless to hackers,

and you can manage all your devices, even Linux desktops, from a single dashboard. And best of all, you can get employees to fix their own device security issues without having to create more work for IT. It gives them the information and instructions on how to do it. The good news is Collide solves all of this. You can start right now by going to collide.com slash unplugged. Collide is a device trust solution for companies with Okta, and they ensure that if a device isn't trusted and secure, just can't log into your cloud apps. So go to K-O-L-I-D-E.com slash unplugged to see a demo on how it all works and support the show. It's collide.com slash unplugged. It's collide.com slash unplugged.

In response to last week's episode, we saw a lot of chatter in our Matrix rooms and lots of really intelligent discussion happening. I know I was in there sort of gaining new perspectives. But one listener, Paul, wrote in and gave us his perspective. He says Red Hat's end goals are pretty agreed upon. Paul also disagrees with Red Hat's public messaging and the rapid system changes. He says the decision to end support for CentOS Linux 8 before the expected 10-year support window was quite a disappointment. And also changing the terms caused a clone problem within the CentOS community, which... Yeah, yep. I mean, I think that point there is...

I think that point is one criticism we maybe could have hit a little harder is this is an enterprise Linux community, and they really need to digest stuff over a long period of time. And red hat is fully aware of that. That's how they make their money. That's their business model. You know, is these like 10 year life support cycles and whatnot.

And they put so much engineering resources into enabling enterprises to move at their slow pace. That's like the fundamental foundation there. And so you think that would be how they would orient their communications is it would be in that sort of enterprise focus first, where if we're going to make a radical change, we're going to give you a year heads up. That's, this is why we're a multi-billion dollar company, because we can afford to work in these 10 year timeframes or these multi-year timeframes. And we're going to give you at least until the end

of this product before we make this change. And that would have gone over a lot better so i think paul's point there is good and i think you know i have a lot of respect for all the work red hat does um and all of our friends that work at red hat and i think they're one of the great tech companies but man have they just really bombed communication especially over the last few years over and over again and i think they acknowledge that because that's why that second post about the change in the rel source rpm releases that second post by mike mcgrath was a lot more raw and honest and i think it was after some reflection of boy we really kind of blew the initial communication there um so i agree paul that really the timing of it all really kind of stinks right and then if you combine this particular event and you associate it with the centos stream transition

and the way that particular event was handled in the time frame that was given for there yeah you're right paul says they need to improve communication and they need to do slower implementations to address these community concerns. And he thinks that Red Hat needs to kind of have a think about the way they message. Don't know if they will. Right. But I think Paul, I think we could have been more critical in our in our take on that in that particular area. I also had a realization after reading Paul's email and kind of getting feedback. This is some folks's first go around with a big rug pull like this, right?

Like, those of us that are getting up there in age, maybe been watching for 20 years, we've seen these kinds of things before. And so it's just not as visceral anymore because… You've been hurt. Yeah. Jaded. And for others that maybe are in some of the more nascent communities that have only been around for a few years, things have been pretty stable. It's been good times for a while. And they haven't really had a change in a shift like this before.

And so I think it's like their first go around. And so when you hear a lot of like the spirits of open source has been violated, those arguments getting tossed around. around i think it's from folks that have kind of detached from like the long-term history of red hat and maybe you weren't here during the fedora core transition or haven't been here different rel changes for subscription i mean guys i used to pay like ten thousand dollars for like one license for a system that multiple cpu cores and like it's crazy like the things that red hat's always been a company it's been for profit if you've been watching long enough you've seen that but if this is the first time i think think it was pretty intense and kind of gave me some perspective on some of the feedback there. Carl, did you have anything you wanted to add before we move on?

No, I can't disagree with any of that, really. I mean, I've been pretty openly supportive of the strategic direction for CentOS with the changes. It was kind of the hiring pitch to bring me in in the first place in 2019, but also at the same time very critical of the timeline that it was executed on. In my opinion, we should have just done CentOS 9 is here early and it's different now, and it would have alleviated a lot of the frustration, the concerns. A lot of people would just use it and not realize the difference

because if it's just hey, I'm now getting updates sooner and I don't really look at RHEL, I just need an OS that works and is supported for multiple years, then a CentOS 9 in that manner would have been just fine. And very occasionally they would notice, hey, this doesn't exactly

match RHEL. Oh, CentOS is slightly different now. I think that would have been a lot better way to execute it. Instead, we ended up having to do the rush timeline. We had to do an upstream and downstream variant of eight. And that just, that was kind of the original sin that just cascaded all of this other stuff and set us up for failure later on. Then later, eventually we pulled out entirely of the downstream model for eight and it set the end of life date much shorter than everyone expected. That was obviously messed up and I didn't agree with, but it's all over now. Can't change it. And just look forward to that strategic direction I talked about where CentOS is actually a

collaborative community where you can help build the OS rather than just getting your bug reports closed as reproducible on RHEL won't fix. Carl, I want to say almost every time I popped into some JB chats this week, you were there as a longtime community member, just kind of talking with people and sharing kind of perspective and experience around this topic. So I just want to say a big thanks from everybody for doing that. Yeah, of course. And I don't mind people being upset about the change. What, uh, what'll get me is when they don't understand the change and they're mad. At least be mad about the right things. That could be a tagline for the show right there. At least be mad about the right things. And now it is time for the boost. All right. We got some great boosts into the show this week. DJ Hunter 67 came in with 432,325 stats.

Our baller. Hey, rich lobster! Coming in with a fresh Podverse app, he writes, Here's to more community support to do less. I'm convinced that you have the pedigree to produce quality you're suggesting while reducing overall workload. What a sweetheart. DJ, I hope this support helps maintain a healthy mental health standard and lower the stress. By the way, every time you mention 18 years, when you make your case, you have me at hello.

And the last five digits are also my zip code. Uh-oh, Westpain, bust out the map. Okay, I was looking around. I'm less sure about this than we normally are. The last five would be 3-2-3-2-5. Maybe, maybe that's a zip code in Tallahassee, Florida

or Morocco or Ukraine. And then if I've got this wrong and it should be the first five, then that's Franklin County, Ohio. So are any of those right? Anyway, only way to find out is if DJ follows up and lets us know. I hope so. But thank you. Thank you for, thank you for the kind words. My hope too is, you know, don't fall into the trap of going horizontal to add inventory and then just slam as many ads as you can in there. My hope is to focus on a, on a,

on something that is more thoughtful and kind of always been our overall trend line that we're always kind of getting to. So I just think it's kind of a continuation of that. At least that's my hope. We'll see how it goes. Sir Alex Gates, the podcasting 2.0 consultant, comes in with 50,001 sats. I hoard that which your kind covet. Coming in from Podverse across two SATS, the first boost goes,

I use Snicket in Docker to self-host my XMPP server. Oh, all right. Okay. All right. He says it's nice. It's got some sane self-configured defaults and modules. You know, Alex is actually kind of getting me wanting to set up an XMPP server. He says, if you want to customize your install for whatever reason, it's probably better to just use the

Prostity, P-R-O-S-O-D-Y, Prostity directly and then use the configuration that Snicket provides. Clients are all over the place, but I use Deno on the desktop and I use Conversations on Android. And then he continued in the next boost, Matt J., the founder of Prostity and Snicket has a great Mastodon thread on the entire topic. It's too long to paraphrase, so he linked it to us. So we'll throw a link to that. It's a good conversation on that. So this is fascinating to see this cross-intersection of XMPP and ActivityPub and potentially the Lightning Network for using these technologies for cross-applic cross application comments and i don't know

man there's it's it's going somewhere and i'm feeling like maybe i have a little fomo on xmpp again we're getting a jbx and pp server going huh maybe we should have always had one maybe that's what i'm feeling like is like why did we even screw around with telegram why do we even mess around with matrix Why didn't we just go with good old easy XMPP? I don't understand what we just like skipped right over it. I mean, I do like Matrix, but... Was there an

era where maybe clients hadn't really kept up, especially I'm thinking with the Telegram side, maybe less relevant for the Matrix, but Element was always at least, on the Element side, has always seemed to be aiming towards a similar goal, whereas if you're just, you know, if you're using one of the more common, at least back in the day, XMPP clients on the desktop, you're having a little more of a different experience. Maybe an experience you like better because it's simple and direct. Is this like a passive aggressive attack on Pigeon?

No. Hey, I like Pigeon. I'm pro Pigeon here. All right. All right. A Devries 17 or is it a Devrise 17? I never know. I believe it's Adversaries.

Oh. Adversaries 18. He's in the mumble room, so he could actually technically clarify. Well, now I feel real embarrassed. Yeah, you're saying it right in front of him, Brent, so get it right. Friends, jeez. 50,000 sats through Podburst. Coming in hot with the boost. Boosted in in uh hey i've been listening to the windows

unplugged clip that you shared in linux unplugged 500 and i'm cracking up as assisted men for a primarily windows shop i definitely can relate to some of it trying to catch up on the linux unplugged after a few months of being behind please keep it up well thank you for boosting it on the back catalog sir that's awfully kind of you appreciate that and uh i don't know if it's real but have you guys all seen this huge graphic dome that's in vegas right now that has all the cool effects and stuff i don't know if this is real but this morning on social media i saw it going i saw a picture of it going around with a Windows blue screen. And then everybody in the comments was like, should have used Linux. I hope it's real, guys.

I hope it's real. It just really is. It's a punchline, but it's a beautiful one. Tux MM comes in with 26,778 sets. Nice. I wonder if that represents something. Well, it's actually over two boosts, one of which was a row of ducks. And then another 24, 5, 5, 6, boosting over at the podcast index.

One of them's just a monthly contribution, so thank you, TuxMM. Thank you. We have a few folks doing that now that are sending their monthly membership via boost. Appreciate that. And then in our row of ducks, we've got what I like about NixOS. I use FFmpeg or YouTube DL once on a blue moon. When I need those tools, I do nix-ffmpeg, and I have the latest FFmpeg available for the job. When done, I just type exit, and I don't have to worry about rarely used software taking up space on the hard drive or mucking up the system. If I really need said tool on a regular basis,

then I'll add it to my NixOS configuration.nix. Happy NixOS user. Absolutely one of the best features. It's just nix-shell-p, name of package, and it will pull all the dependencies down and create a little environment where it's in the path, and you can run it till your heart's content, and then you just close the terminal and it's gone.

I love it so much exactly for that because you guys that are longtime listeners know that I'm always installing different apps for the show. And so if I get a Linux box that's been around for a while, it's got hundreds and hundreds of apps installed that I very rarely remove. It's been especially gross on my long-lived Debian-based systems where you have all these PPAs and other things over there, app repos.

It is a thing. And so this has just been a game changer. And also, I'll add in, you know, because we were talking about immutable systems today, Tux, one of my favorite things is that I can mix and match from stable and unstable. So you could have a fully, you knowunquote, stable NixOS base, but you could maybe have the unstable version of Gnome Shell or the unstable version of Chrome installed. Everything else is stable package.

Or flip that and reverse it. You could have a pure, raw, unstable NixOS where everything's coming in, slamming in, just like latest willy-nilly. But then a couple of packages those are stable like whatever might be maybe it's your you know critical app you get that from stable and you can mix and match like that on top of having this nick shell p thing where you can just sort of create an ephemeral environment pull in the dependencies build the app put it in the path and run it and then disappear like you could on top of having the mix and match of stable and unstable

i especially like that for when I'm just squatting on someone else's machine or troubleshooting on someone else's machine, using it for a bit, borrowing it. We've used it to experiment with the OBS machine to like try newer versions of the kernel and the video drivers and OBS and even Plasma. We've tried Plasma 6 on the OBS machine randomly one night

and then just rolled back. You know, this whole idea, Chris, of having like a variety of packages from different stability trees, just, and we've come a really long way from the dependency hell of like the early two thousands. Do you remember? It was just like, I remember trying it when I was younger and I was just like, Oh, I just don't have the skills to keep my system in one piece. Back in my day, we used URPMI to actually resolve our RPM dependencies. And then Yellow Dog Linux came around, and they really changed the game. Exactly.

All right, why don't you try this next one, because I think you're the only guy that has a shot at pronouncing this. Well, see, I don't know if I have this right, but I think I'm going to give it a shot. And I'd love to hear you, Chris, give it a shot, too. We'll see. Oh, man. Maybe you should go first. I don't want to change your efforts. All right.

Yeah. Okay. Kayake Kikakuki comes in with 25,011 sats. All right. What do you think, Fred? You nailed it. How would you pronounce it? No.

I just love you, so I'm trying to help you out here. Okay. All right. I was thinking maybe it might be, let me just pause here to make sure I'm reading this properly. Kaikiko Kuki? That's the best I've got. All right. All right.

25,011 sats. B-O-O-S-T. Thanks for all the, he writes, thanks for all the great content over the year the first time i listened to linux unplugged a guy had a bad appendix problem and i thought what's this linux podcast really about now i can't wait for new episodes to come out and hear y'all talk about linux stuff times are tough i can't help much but hopefully this helps a little p.s more nixos stuff please flakes secret management etc and also plus one for me singing the outro at the end. Yeah, boy, man.

I'll plus two to that. That whole kidney thing, I can't believe I was so dumb. I almost died in a hotel room in Texas. And you know what? I don't know if I've ever made it clear on air. I did get myself checked out at a local hospital before I left because I suspected I had been sick for three weeks at that point. And I and I, you know, they looked at me and they said, you're fine, you're good to travel. And then I went down in Texas and then I almost died.

So I think I was like over three weeks, totally ruptured. It was just it was horrible. Yeah. You guys really stepped up, did the show without me. The show went on and we didn't miss a beat. So how about that? That is pretty dang impressive. Splint comes in with 22,000 sats. Thank you, sir. From Podversen writes, thank you, Carl. The insider perspective is often way more useful to the insights or decisions like this. decisions like this. As of this moment, while reading all the let's switch to Debian Flame War, I'm switching my development and my company and my laptop to RHEL.

Such great insight and knowledge should not be disregarded. It's always useful to know both sides of a conversation before making a decision. Yeah. Yeah. I know we've already mentioned it, but yeah, I was just really grateful for Carl's perspective. Getting some of those little tidbits really helped put it all into perspective. Our buddy Nev Boosin with 20,000 sats to remind us that Ohio Linux Fest is September 8th and 9th.

Yes, thank you for the reminder, September 8th and 9th. And we'll put a link to that in the show notes, too. You guys can also find it at offconference.org. Oh, right. Is it OLF? OLFconference.org, I think is what it is. We'll put a link in the notes. Mr. Jeff, listener Jeff, comes in with 10,000 beautiful stats from the podcast index.

I found the GFX card I have is not only a good value, but works well with stable diffusion. Hey, nice. So check out, he says, the AMD 6700 XT. It's got 12 gigs of RAM and it goes for around $330. None of the CUDA stuff, but none of the NVIDIA driver mess either. That's got 12 gigs of RAM and it goes for around $330. None of the CUDA stuff, but none of the NVIDIA driver mess either. That's my thinking too, Jeff. You got your trade-offs right there.

Yep, yep, yep. I'm trying to decide. You know, I could keep going the easy stable diffusion route and just spend $300 on a GPU. Or there's also now a couple of pretty good hosted stable diffusion type generators that's how they get you and they have newer models and stuff like that and it's like so do you spend

300 up front and use easy stable diffusion and then like a lot more manual stuff to keep it current or do you spend that money over a couple of years and just use a generator. I haven't decided yet. Aren't you involved with some sort of show about hosting things at a particular location? Yeah, maybe that would be a good justification to go that route. I always gotta make sure it makes sense, though. Of course.

We got a boost in from Magnolia Mayhem. 10,000 sats and it simply says, oops, all fixed. Yeah, thank you. Chris, do you know what this is in reference to? I think the mistake was not boosting, and now that mistake's been rectified. This is, I believe, in response to the catercloud.me website.

I know. Oh. I like my version so much better. Oh, you're just being clever mayhem member is trying to get some early data for the tuxes and we should put another link to his website in the show notes again because he does have it up and running so go check that out catercloud.me yeah thank you mayhem gene bean came in with 8 540 sats across three booths it's great to hear from you, Gene Bean.

And he wanted to pass congrats to you, Brent, on the new gig at NextCloud. If anybody missed last week's episode, Brent's got a job at NextCloud. Hence the Berlin trip. You know, I got last week a lot of just like DMs from folks in Matrix saying, hey, congrats. So thank you to everyone who sent some kind regards that, yeah, means a lot to me, actually. So thank you. And maybe we changed Gene Bean's mind a little bit.

So I have to back off my previous stance on the Red Hat change. After listening to all the context provided in this episode, I think there's some legitimately valid points here. It'll be interesting to see what happens with Alma and the like. Have you guys seen the Conchack support page, by the way? This is so cool. You can create, and this is for new pod guessers this could be great too you can create a little support page where people can contribute with just like a web gui for lightning oh this does look nice isn't that cool isn't that pretty cool so uh we're gonna try to do this i kept forgetting for the last couple episodes

we're gonna try to be radically transparent about uh the boost so we made this episode 658,855 sats. Thank you, everybody who boosted in. It was 13 boosters total across 17 boosts. Not every single boost makes it on air, but we do read every single one of them, and then we enshrine them in the show document for all of eternity. It'll be in a tomb one day, maybe on a satellite.

I don't know. Haven't decided. But I'm thinking a sat, like a sat cube, like an open source sat cube with like a hard drive that's got all the files. That'll be my legacy and my ashes. So your boosts are going to die with me. How about that? Thanks for boosting it.

If you'd like to boost into the show, you have two paths. You can go to podcastapps.com and you can grab a new podcast app that has all the cool podcasting features like transcripts and chapters. And of course, boosts and live stream support. But if you really love your podcast app and you're not ready to change yet, you can actually just boost from the web. Got to get the Albie extension at get Albie.com, right? Get Albie.com and then head over to the podcast index.org and look for Linux

unplugged. We'll put all this in the show notes and then you can boost from the web. And of course, a big shout out to our members unplugged core.com. can get an ad-free version of the show or my personal favorite you get the bootleg feed you get the whole dang live stream which is like a whole other show we put some content in there to thank our members who support us automatically every single month unpluggedcore.com for the members we have a life-changing pick this week um we probably could have made the whole episode about this pick and then just probably could have had a good share sesh about how this has

changed our lives and how we feel emotionally about that but instead we've just relegated this to the pick segment so that way you can have that moment of reflection on your own after you've listened to this episode and uh in the spirit of the show, it is a snap pick as well. In fact, it's not even packaged in Knicks. And you found this very special pick, Wes. That's right. It's Bob Ross quotes. A collection of Bob Ross quotes that you can have in your terminal every time you want one. I mean, you could put it in your message of the day if you want, or you can just get a Bob Ross quote on demand and don't worry. They do an ASCII art generation of his epic hair.

this one sounds like it's talking about the show quote. We don't really know where this goes and I'm not sure we really care. I like this one. However you think it should be. That's exactly how it should be. You know, happy little clouds. He's exactly how it should be. You know, happy little clouds. He's got to smack the devil out of it sometime.

You know, he's got to smack the devil out of it. Now, unfortunately, this is a command line app, so it's one of the stamps I didn't get working on the core desktop. Oh my god. I was going to say, unfortunately, that's one of the things I love about it. And it's, of course, 100% written in Python.

So the nice part is it's just a handy-dandy little Python library so you can take it with you. Yeah, there you go. Right? I mean, life-changing kind of pick. Just when you need a moment of Bob Ross inspiration. Have you guys ever tried Bob Ross to fall asleep? Yeah, it's lovely. It's great. It's great. Put that on there.

Fall asleep and dream of immutable desktops. We have a very interesting future ahead of us. And, you know, in a weird way, over the last 10 years, especially as SystemD landed and so much functionality and like Xorg and the kernel just got automatic. Linux distros really are only now really defined by where they put things on the file system and how they package and you install them that's like their biggest differentiator and what default the de they ship yeah but now with this race to an immutable desktop we are seeing radically different approaches to the genuine system architecture right like the ubuntu core desktop immutable system is not built anything like silver blue is and so your expertise on silver blue is not applicable to the ubuntu core desktop snap or you know nix like none of those

apply to nix either nix is a very different take on this and soos with butterfest snapshots is a very different take they're all doing their own very unique thing in a way i don't think we've seen this kind of deviation from each other in a long time and you have to imagine on the long scale it'll probably start to come back together again like long long term but we are in a brand new phase and it's going to be fascinating to watch who gets to the most usable desktop today i mean i'm daily driving xos desktop i know a lot of people are but who gets to mass appeal mass adoption first

and it seems like if you know you're looking at the contenders here Canonical's got a fair shot if they can make all this work a little bit smoother

and just polish up those rough edges which they stick with it I think they will Will Brent be using it by this time next year? Yeah

Listen and find out It's going to be something to watch over the long term so we'll keep an eye on it let you guys know what we think. And of course, we're looking forward to seeing all of you at Linux Fest Northwest. If you can make it, it's going to be on October.

Details at linuxfestnorthwest.org. We'll be there. We'll be doing a live show. We'll probably be doing a little cookout. And if you want a little more show, don't forget we get together every single Sunday. We've got Mumble going, which is an open source Opus low latency chat app. And you can get a... And there's a snap of it.

Yeah, you can get a snap of it. You absolutely can. And you can join us live and get a low latency stream. See you next week. Same bad time, same bad station. Otherwise, just head on over to linuxunplugged.com slash subscribe. Get the feed and listen to the episode whenever you want after we publish it. Or the pro tip, you can get the all shows feed at j episode whenever you want after we publish it or the pro tip you

can get the all shows feed at jupiterbroadcasting.com we got a lean mean crew of shows now so it's not going to blast your podcast player and you get all our great shows in one feed the all shows feeds at jupiterbroadcasting.com links to what we talked about today while that's over at linuxunplugged.com slash 518 contact Contact page is over there as well and all the other goodies you might need. Thanks so much for joining us on this week's episode of The Unplugged Program. We'll see you right back here next Sunday. Thank you.