LINUX Unplugged - 563: Nix's People Problem

Episode Date: May 20, 2024

After months of debate, the Nix community might be coming to a resolution. We'll examine what happened, what's changing.Sponsored By:Tailscale: Tailscale is a programmable networking software that is private and secure by default - get it free on up to 100 devices!Kolide: Kolide is a device trust solution for companies with Okta, and they ensure that if a device isn't trusted and secure, it can't log into your cloud apps.Core Contributor Membership: Save $3 a month on your membership, and get the Bootleg and ad-free version of the show. Code: MAYSupport LINUX UnpluggedLinks:💥 Gets Sats Quick and Easy with Strike📻 LINUX Unplugged on Fountain.FMUsing Tailscale for Android just got a whole lot betterReport on NixOS Governance Discussions - by Chris McDonoughThe NixOS Foundation board announced on April 30 that Eelco Dolstra is stepping down from the board following the recent calls for his resignation.A leadership crisis in the Nix community (LWN) — On April 21, a group of anonymous authors and non-anonymous signatories published a lengthy open letter to the Nix community and Nix founder Eelco Dolstra calling for his resignation from the project.NixOS Foundation board: Giving power to the community - Announcements - NixOS DiscourseNixOS Foundation Board: Constitutional Assembly Appointment - Announcements - NixOS DiscourseFull Email with GrahamChris' s nginx ConfigNixOS Manual: Using DNS validation with web server virtual hostsNixOS Manual: SSL/TLS Certificates with ACMEUnplugged Core MembershipSigning up with an email addressDell OEM Replacement PartsWinamp has announced that it is opening up its source — Winamp has announced that on 24 September 2024, the application's source code will be open to developers worldwide.RcloneShuttle — Upload your files to anywhere - GTK4 GUI for Rclone

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to Slackware Week! Get ready to dive deep into the world of simplicity and stability. Leaving no stone unturned, your host Brent has spent all week preparing, and we're excited to say Brent has passionately and confidently taken the reins on Slackware Week. Seriously? He's demanding we call him the King of Slackware. In just moments, Brent will explore its unique package management system, reputation for rock-solid performance, and passionate user community. Whether you're a seasoned Slackware pro or a curious newcomer,

this week Brent will expand your Linux horizons. Stay tuned. Slackware Week starts right now. um we got a problem brent's not here no chair is empty cats unloved uh anybody know where brent is i see alex is here hey alex yeah your token uh imperialist person today is me, not Brent. Well, that at least balances the show out a little bit, I guess. A quick hot swap, thank you. I'm sure Brent will be here with Slackware Week soon. In his honor, I had pancakes with maple syrup for breakfast.

And was it good maple syrup? No. He wouldn't have passed the Brent test. Okay. So today on the show, after months of internal debate over in the NixOS community, we're going to cover the community's recent internal struggles and examine what's happened, as far as we can tell, and then what's changing. And then we'll round the show out with our boosts and our picks and all of that. So let's say good morning to our virtual lug.

Time-appropriate greetings, El Mumble Room. Hello. Hello. Hello. Got a nice little showing up there in the quiet listening area, too. Thank you very much for joining us in that live Mumble Room. You can, too, deets on our website at jupiterbroadcasting.com. And let's say good morning to our friends at tailscale.com

slash Linux Unplugged. Hello. Hello. Hey, Tailscale. Tailscale is programmable networking software that is private and secure by default. Very fast. And this week, they just rolled out a brand spanking rebuild Android app that just got a whole lot better. So go try Tailscale for free on 100 devices at Tailscale.com slash Linux Unplugged. The easiest way to connect your devices directly to each other for yourself or for a team. Tailscale.com slash Linux Unplugged. The easiest way to connect your devices directly to each other for yourself or for a team. Tailscale.com slash Linux Unplugged.

All right. So this week we want to cover what's been going on with Nix. As we've been getting questions into the show, is Nix dying? Should I? We've had several people ask if maybe they should learn something else because they're concerned that Nix will be gone in a couple of years. You see it on, you know, various, on Reddit and other social media as well. It seems like something that, for Nix, which has remained relatively niche, somehow the drama in the community is getting more coverage lately

than anything about the fundamental project or technology or game-changing value that it brings. And I think this is why we've kind of drug our feet on covering it, because we're so far over in the technological value side of Nix and have so little insight really into what goes on in the internal area of the community, because we're on the production end of Nix. We're implementing, we're using, we're not on the development side. We're very grateful, but that's just not a side we follow very closely and so when internal riffs begin to build we like to follow them so we can stay informed but it's not necessarily necessarily our inclination to make content out of them but there does seem to be confusion and even concern about the long-term

viability of nix and nix os and so we thought okay all right let's address this and it does seem like there is some forward progress this week as we record as well. So the timing happens to work pretty well. And I think to start, boys, we should start with kind of trying to explain where the NixOS Foundation fits in. Again, you know, we're not Nix experts. We're enthusiasts. So this is the best to our understanding. But to our understanding, the way it works is the Nix project is governed by the NixOS Foundation. That's a nonprofit organization that handles the project's finances and legal responsibilities. Kind of the same thing we

see in a lot of software projects, right? Like you can have the core project itself, which is governed by open source licenses and the rules around contribution is based in the repo. But ultimately, you got to interact with taking donations and hosting events and paying money and interacting with governments around the world. And then you start to need legal structure of some kind. Yeah. And so they got a board and we've met some of the folks on that board. They all seem like they're pretty solid individuals with good intentions for NAICS. And according to the board's page, its responsibilities include handling, quote, administrative, legal and financial tasks,

sponsorships and donations, funding for, quote, community events and efforts. The board is, quote, not responsible for technical leadership, decisions or direction, nor is it expected to handle all decision making. Yeah, instead, the board is responsible for providing a framework for teams to self-organize, including a duty to hand out the credentials and permissions required for the team's work. And I guess from what I read online, this all seems pretty typical of articles of association for a Dutch foundation, which is, I think, the situation here. And so this is the foundation's role in the Nix community.

So what is happening in the Nix community? The gist of it is that the original creator of Nix felt sort of thrust into a de facto benevolent dictator for life role that he's indicated he didn't necessarily want. But sometimes, you know, I think there was a need for a decision maker or something like that. He's now formally stepped down. He remains a contributor and works at Determinant Systems. Yeah, I wonder, you know, it seems kind of like Nix has been small enough, niche enough that things have been self-organizing pretty effectively. And so this kind of just could happen. But as more attention's grown, as more people are using it,

as businesses, as we saw at NixCon, have really sprung up around it, there's just a lot more pressure on that organization or lack thereof, and not a lot of clarity. Which seems like maybe it'd been all right before, but definitely not going forward. I think what's interesting is where that phrase, benevolent dictator for life came from we haven't mentioned yet the open letter from a bunch of disgruntled nix community members who in my opinion did somewhat of a character assassination towards elko and some of the other um people involved in kind of the governance structures as they were before they wrote the letter.

Yeah, the open letter, I think, is it's like a it's like a rabbit hole we could really get into. So this open letter, I think, does characterize Elko as as basically it publicly demands that he step down in the letter. They publicly demand that Elko step down. And then about a week later, Elko did step down. They you know, I don't know if Elko was going to do that all along or if he stepped down because of that letter. Yeah, it seemed like there'd been rumblings of these concerns and flare-ups and discontent sort of in the background. And at this point, things really, you know, hit a punctuated point. And yeah, then Elko steps down and announces that they're going to appoint a constitutional assembly, which will be tasked with setting up a new governance structure run by the community

that is capable of serving the community's needs. And then once established, the foundation is intending to delegate some of its power to that new assembly. Yeah, so that kind of set some expected next steps for where things could go after the open letter and after, you know, there'd been a lot of complaints from both sides. And that process has been playing out for the last couple of weeks. So to sum it up, to try to I think if I were to zoom out at a 50 foot level, a long time ago, there was essentially this kind of started from a disagreement around flakes and how flakes should be included. That failed to find a resolution that everybody was happy with, which left a bad taste in people's mouth. This has festered into a long, turbulent discussion in the community that now goes into multiple areas in the community,

including a failure to find any real solution or direction around community moderation. This led some to feel unsafe. That issue has snowballed into its own entire problem and has created a vast amount of confusion and discontent over the general governance around Nix. Then, while this was brewing, just this general discontent around how Nix is moderated, how it's governed, all these things, while that was kind of brewing, a sponsor came along that's tied to the military industrial complex, Adderall. Anderall? Anderall Adderall. Anderle? Anderle, thank you. Anderle Industries, they sponsored NixCon EU. Some in the community didn't like this. The venue I hear also wasn't very pleased about it.

And it provoked this discussion around Nix and its ties to the military industrial complex. And some felt that Nix should be held to a standard that we don't hold other Linux distributions to, and that is that they should have no involvement with any military at all, which just as provokes a giant conversation and discussion, and when you don't have proper moderation and governance in place, it starts going in all kinds of sideways.

Yeah, that kind of hits on it right there, right? When you don't really have a framework for how to handle these things, and then you do bring in, you know, very heated and contentious issues, that's going to stress those systems that essentially coming together is what provoked that open letter that you were referring to alex indeed it was and if you look at nix con eu which happened last autumn anderil was down as a sponsor for that event and was dropped for whatever reason but the event that we went to in pasadena nix con na the first

one north america it wasn't dropped yeah i think that led to some folks feeling like they weren't listening kind of like look we made a big fuss and now you're gonna go back and do it again and the other folks were like look they want to give us money and we're trying to make this first event in north america happen and we wanted to you know we'll take all the resources we can get and to be clear it's not just money they have people that contribute code and contribute to NICs as well. Absolutely. And the kind of alternative would be to say no to them and then they could just fork what they want

and then the foundation and the project gets nothing. Right. And it provokes, you can see there's all these rabbit hole doors you could open because it provokes the conversation of should the project outwardly take an aggressive, no military involvement stance, which is a political stance. That has, of course, created all kinds of debates internally, some of which have led to people that are longtime contributors to the project getting banned by moderation. Which is another thing you may have seen, you know, if you've been browsing social media or watching from afar. People getting banned or whatever.

We don't hold the Linux kernel itself to that standard, do we? I mean, I know for a fact that there are huge government contracts going through enterprise Linux vendors as we speak. And, you know, so you have the Linux kernel being used in all sorts of places, you have companies, massive enterprise Linux companies supporting those efforts. And yet, NixOS, it's a huge problem. It doesn't compute for me quite. Yeah, we do kind of celebrate these days. I mean, Microsoft maybe isn't directly a defense contractor, but they certainly are a large vendor to the the military and we sort of are like wow look at these contributions from microsoft in the kernel right and aws public cloud is a thing and they have an

entirely separate government cloud division that's held to an entirely separate standard like in america at least i i think you you guys said it in lupper a few months ago that it's just not a reality to ignore that that complex exists financially yeah and this company in particular is one of the more technologically innovative companies in this space and they have a very forward-thinking technological r&d policy and this goes up all the way to the ceo level palmer lucky is aware of this drama and uh he paints it as you know political reasons but either way it's it's it's what we were trying to watch and trying to figure out is how is this actually impacting nix the technology and the people that deploy and use it and and this community stuff that's going on, is it a sideshow?

Is it directly at the foundation of, you know, I'm saying the metaphorical foundation of how Nix is built? Like, what impact does this have? It's especially hard because there's, I mean, what is the Nix community, right? Like, you've got at least three different logical projects in, like, Nix the language itself,

which is kind of where, like, the Flake stuff was, but then to also Nix packages, the giant managed package repository to nix os the linux distribution uh plus you have people that you know are you involved with project governance and leadership are you involved with just making you know maintaining packages nix packages are you a promoter or someone who talks about nix like we are like where who are the people in these roles how do they interact and it's just hard to judge especially when you're relatively new does that what you just articulated there was indicate wider issues with the the vacuum of leadership that elko has had to date like he the phrase benevolent dictator for life would imply that he has been incredibly forceful in a Linus Torvalds kind of way over the project and been aggressive towards people.

And maybe that's the case behind closed doors. I don't know on the details of that. But the very fact that we have Nix packages and Nix language and Nix OS all called Nix speaks to like just something isn't quite right in the leadership space along with the whole flakes thing i don't know but to me it just highlights maybe that's been an issue for a lot longer than maybe we realized you know we had an opportunity to meet elko at uh nixcon and he seemed like a gentle person who just wants to focus on the tech agree and and i don't think um he wants to be a dictator and i think that's why he was probably either convinced or agreed or decided to step down yeah part of the complaints seem to be both as much like maybe sporadic

versions of action and decisions made and then a lot of times maybe people felt action should have been taken it wasn't and then you you also have that Nix is, like you mentioned earlier, Wes, it's at this part of its life cycle where commercialization is beginning to become possible. So we have determinant systems and kind of a community around them and Phlox and a community around them. And they also employ Elko and Graham and they also, you know, Phlox employs Ron who works on the foundation. Like there's these, there are these kind of cross ties and some people would argue they are conflicts of interest. But to me, they look more like a nascent ecosystem that is being built by companies

and by people that are passionate about it. And you have, but you have these two different views. You have this kind of this commercial view, this sort of practical view where it's okay to work with companies like Adderall or whatever it is. And it's OK to do those types of engagements. And then you have the kind of freedom community side that very much wants to go by moral ideals and very outwardly say this project will only engage with these types of people, with these political biases, with these types of stances. We consider military work anti-moral. We're going to outwardly state all that, and that's what we want the project to be. And it feels like there's sort of like this collision of two forces, even if the commercial interests aren't inherently the opposite of some of these morals.

In fact, I think they share some of them. In fact, I think that's why the moderation team is able to have the breadth and operation they do is because I believe a lot of these people share some of the same moral understanding. But there are just still kind of like two sides of a magnet here where there's the commercial side and the community side that seems it wants to be very ideal and very pure. And let's not ignore the issue of who decides what's okay and what's not.

Like, okay, Anduril's very clearly a military contractor. That's one of their core businesses. But what about companies that are in a more gray area are just a supplier to, you know, let's say a military contractor, but they themselves are not a military company. Like where does that line get drawn and who draws it? And it's just a whole can of worms. I don't understand why the sponsorship was up for debate.

Because it seems like when we articulate the things that the foundation is responsible for, which is not a great number of things, sponsorships and events are particularly one of the things that are articulated in their purview. So it seems like it's a subtle issue if the foundation wants to engage with the sponsor. Yeah, I think that's the legal interpretation, but I think this is the community saying we don't feel represented by the foundation making these choices. Okay. Yeah. I do wonder if this is like, you know, the larger sign of, you know, something we've

seen with the Linux kernel is the era where it's dominated by folks who are, you know, primarily either like just passionate about it or hobbyists or folks doing it. I believe this is the future and I'm going to work on it in extra time to, you know, as you're talking about. That was the transition I was attempting to articulate. The commercial era where you're, I mean, right now a lot of the people employed are obviously also passionate about Nix, but, you know, you start to have a little more of that, like, well, we are advancing both the business interest and also this is something I'm doing professionally

and in my daytime working mode. And those are different goals sometimes and different mindsets that now have to interact. Yeah, this splintering that we've seen recently really to me feels like just the tip of the iceberg. These fissures must run pretty deep for some folks. I will say that my experience contributing to the next project okay i've done one package to next packages so i'm hardly up there in the the top echelons of contributions but was very welcoming i felt very welcome the the initial process of opening a pr and people guiding

me through it was great the the support I got in the NixOS and NixNerds JB channels on Matrix was top tier, you know. So for me personally, the entry point to being a contributor to Nix was fine. I felt perfectly safe and welcomed. What concerns me a little bit is your qualifications now match some of the people that are moderating other folks that have been much more significant contributors out of the project. There are people that have literally one or two contributions in total. Some of them are within the last 30 days. So that way they can participate in the Zulip instance and participate in this new governance structure. And I kind of am a little sus of their intentions.

And it looks like some of them are going to be involved in the next steps moving forward. And some people that have, like the release manager. NixOS has no release manager right now. Why? Well, because the current release manager right before release was moderated out for a pattern of behavior. That kind of behavior is concerning to me, and i don't necessarily think that's been resolved but you know i mean i what do i know i'm out here on the outside of it i'm as just as somebody who's consuming and producing like the end product not the actual product so i don't know

if i can properly make the judgment i do share your fear that the project is going to be overrun by these folks that lack as you as you put it you know the general experience and maybe some emotional maturity if we were to quote some things from the open letter perhaps just and just in general the objectivity required to be at the wheel i think all of these things we've talked about so far really stem just from a lack of clear authoritative leadership yeah i'm still struggling to understand how much it really matters right like we can continue to update our next systems yeah i mean there can be a question around what the impact is we've certainly seen you know many prominent nix uh folks leave or

change their involvement or question what their involvement will be but right i think it's hard to appreciate the other ones that have you know either quietly or not quietly voiced continued support and and have stayed and continue to work. Or even just pump the brakes at Nix's. We felt it. We said it after scale. This is Nix's moment in the sun. And here we are pumping the brakes a little bit, you know, collectively saying, well,

let's just see how this shakes out. And it's entirely the wrong moment, I would imagine, for such phishies to become public. It might be part of what's been bothering me. You might be onto it a little bit, is this seems a little self-destructive just at the wrong moment. But again, I don't think it really doesn't change the thesis. It doesn't really change the thesis of this is the right way to build a system. And it doesn't really change the thesis that this has a vast package

repository that you can then install the Nix package manager on just about every OS and have access to all of this community's work and then start building your own stuff immediately. Like none of that changes because of any of this. And, you know, the Nix project at this point, because of some of that success, you know, I think it has hit a certain level where there's enough involvement, enough shared interest that it isn't necessarily strictly defined by sets of some of these prominent people. They obviously have been huge contributors,

some of them, and big influences, but it also, there's enough energy now, I think, to, Nix can continue to evolve, whether that is with some compatible forks or not, but, you know, there could be a lot of directions that this stuff continues to get developed in a successful way. And of course, there are open questions. We'll see about maybe the next couple NixOS releases. What does, you know, life look like after this new assembly is established? I know with the moderation in particular, there's been a lot of upset on many areas, and there's been apologies from the

moderation team. And it seems like there's some recognition, at least, that this has all been handled kind of sloppily and not in the way that a lot of the good intention folks really wanted it to go down. But they're kind of sticking with the plan. There are definitely, I think there's some folks on the assembly that people have questions about. on the assembly that people have questions about. There's other folks that are sort of beyond the pale that everyone seems to agree are, you know, good intentioned and with the best intentions of Nix at heart.

So I think that's a lot of reason to think that things might continue just fine. Collide.com slash unplugged. You've probably heard me talk about Collide because I think it's a tool that would have changed the trajectory of my career. But you might not have heard, they were just acquired by 1Password. And it's a

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K-O-L-I-D-E dot com slash unplugged. That's Kaleid.com slash unplugged. To try to get some more perspective on the recent developments, we reached out to Graham Christensen, co-founder of Determinate Systems, and you and he had a bit of an email exchange, Chris. Yeah, I wanted to ask Graham a couple of just high-level points because he's been involved for a very long time. You know, he's been sitting next to Elko as they've made some of these decisions, no doubt.

And I asked Graham on the community self-governing, what is his point of view and how that's functioning right now? Because so far it's been mostly hands off from their experience. That may be worth mentioning real quick. We also reached out to a number of other folks on many, you know, been involved in many different capacities and many of them declined not to comment. Yes. In fact, Determinant Systems is really the only group that was willing to go on the record.

I had multiple conversations with people that then refused to go on the record. So we do really appreciate Graham actually responding. Graham's first answer when I asked what his point of view on how the community is currently self-governing, he said, quote, The NICS community is and has long been a collaborative group, and the people in it have done a great job self-regulating. The results and the growth and health of the project are the best evidence of this. Like every successful organization, it has reached a point where a new level of structure and guidance is needed to scale and to meet the needs of an increasingly diverse set of participants. This is why we are seeing and facilitating the changes that are now underway.

And the foundation has been facilitating those. So I had a follow-up question. It says, does determinant system success depend on the NICS community? And if it does, does that mean that many months of dysfunction has been bad for determinate systems? Graham responded that determinate systems and the NICS community are inextricably intertwined and healthily symbiotic and always will be. We now see a period of growth in which necessary changes are being made on both sides. These changes will benefit both the NICS community and determinate systems together and independently. Yeah, I do wonder, you know, I could see either version, you know, do things kind of stay at a boil throughout, let's say, the summer and into the fall?

That's one version of like, oh, this, you know, this continues to be very serious. Or do you know, do things kind of, maybe there's little boil ups here and there, but it, you know, things enter another period of growth and relative stability. You know, I think it depends on the intentions of those involved what do you think alex i think it's interesting that elko by the way is a co-founder or kind of well that that's a whole controversy in and of itself isn't it is that elko's involved with determinate systems and was his involvement with the company disclosed at the perfect opportunity perfect time for him or for nix or that was one of the things disclosed at the perfect opportunity perfect time for him or for

nix or that was one of the things pointed out in the open letter uh and elko is still involved with determinate systems as of today um but i do think that it as a project nix needs something like determinate systems to push it forward in the same way that linux did with canonical and red hat back in the day like it just and of course suzy of course it needs those it just needs that leadership i keep coming back to it as we're talking i think it just needs that pair of hands to grab it by the scruff of the neck and say yes for example we are going to do flakes and that's just how it's going to be. And then that means everybody can focus their efforts around a certain thing, a certain set of tooling and build the documentation that everybody says is lacking in certain areas around that tool and increase adoption and ultimately meet the end goals of the project.

project. You know, another way to maybe frame it would be curation. Because what I came to understand having conversations with the folks at Determinate Systems is there is a lot of areas where Nix doesn't work great in a large enterprise development model. And there is a lot of value that a company like Determinate Systems can add to make Nix work better in your work environment and to make Nix work with your existing DevOps workflow and not some sort of brand new technology that the Nix person has to convince everyone at work to go adopt. Because if you go with their system, you can just, if you use GitHub, you can use the determinant systems FlakeHub workflow model. And so they're trying to, and there's all these things they do, like with their magic cache and the way that they address Nick's store permissions and all of this.

They're trying to solve problems for people that are developing with Nick's at scale. And there's nobody that really does that. And it's not necessarily, I don't know if that's leadership, but it's definitely curation. And I, if Elko, you know, he, he wrote the white paper and then, you know, if they create this and then he later on works at a company that can curate and provision a system like this that is useful in the enterprise, more power to him. That should be the go-to success story all over open source. I think it's a damn shame we don't see more of it in free software. We really should, because it's all out there.

It's free. And you can see they're not grabbing this as an opportunity to seize control this if there was another scenario determinant systems could have used this as an opportunity to seize control of nix and the next community but instead we actually saw them step back more and defer to the community and defer to the foundation to which they have some involvement but i think it's still the appropriate process which to me perhaps showed the a original accusation of being a benevolent dictator was entirely not anything that elko was interested in whatsoever because his

his stepping down happened pretty quickly after that letter it was almost like he read it internalized it ing ingested it, spent a week or two with it, and then was like, yeah, no, I don't really want to do that. Graham had a lot to say. I thought he spoke really eloquently about how the community works together. He wrote, it's funny about Nix, how the boundaries of the project can be unclear to users.

When I was new, I had a hard time knowing if I needed to read the Nix manual or Nix packages or the NixOS manual to answer a question. This is still true, but it's grown. Now we have the Nix Darwin and Home Manager and the whole suite of excellent software from the Nix community organization on GitHub. People on the internet occasionally talk about

inscrutable errors or broken behavior in Nix when the Nix, the project, has nothing to do with it, actually, and the issue tends to lie solely on one of these projects. Similarly, folks will say the same thing when they run Nix when the Nix the project has nothing to do with it actually and the issue tends to lie solely on one of these projects similarly folks will say the same thing when they run Nix when they actually mean Nix OS collectively whether we like it or not these things are Nix and the community is essential and irreplaceable the collective burden carried by the volunteers who contribute to the project is astronomical and watching Nix packages continue to be the best package repository on the planet is truly a marvel. Completely agree. I'll link to his entire email in the show notes if you're curious. I thought it was well written and a good response to my questions.

There's a few more questions I'd asked him in there. And I get the sense that they're going to just trust the process and the work continues from their perspective. And that's sort of how I feel about it too, is we'll just let the process work out and just continue to get the work continues from their perspective. And that's sort of how I feel about it too, is we'll just let the process work out and just continue to get the work done. It seems like there's enough hands, there's enough interested folks, there are people with financial backing, there's people with, you know,

who've now deployed NICs in a lot of scenarios and have committed some of their business or their project to it, that there are just a lot of people, I think, that are willing to help out and maybe take the reins where needed, even if there's some growing pains to do so. Yeah. And, Bustin, if you think we've missed something in our analysis, if you think there's a bit that we left out that is important for people to understand, also include that as well. I will say that Wes mentioned briefly about forking the project.

One of the, I want to say say demands in that original open letter was, if you don't comply with our demands, this was the general sentiment anyway, if you don't comply with our demands, we're going to fork the project and yada, yada, yada. Since that's written, there have been a couple of forks popped up. One is called Lix, L-I-X.

Another one is called Aux, Aux, A-U-X dot computer. So there are a couple of forks have happened already. And we know from Linux history that this bifurcation of effort will eventually sort itself out one way or another, whether it's one of these new projects becomes the new de facto standard or just fizzles out. I mean, look at Debian and Dev1, for example. All right.

Please adjust your seats into the upright position as we go a little bit further up into actually using Nix. And I want to share a setup that I have been extremely satisfied with and not going to blow anybody away, but it is a combination of Nginx, Acme, and NixOS that just sing sweet, sweet music to me. And on my little home system, I've played with various ways of doing port forwarding. I started with traffic on my Odroid, and then I actually switched over to Nginx on NixOS because it was so, so simple. Yeah, the module is pretty darn nice. I will link my config, and I think for each host that I'm doing a reverse proxy for, it's like five lines of Nix code. And what it does is it goes out and it gets an SSL cert.

It sets up port forwarding, and it does it all for me when I just build the config all on the back end. There's nothing particularly groundbreaking and new about this, but the repeatability of it is ridiculous. When you want to add a new host, you just highlight those five lines in your NixOS config, tweak the name, tweak the port, and then rebuild. And you now have NGINX reset up again, all fully configured. It does all of the cert stuff with Lego, right? Yep, Lego under the hood.

And of course, a whole bunch of systemd setup, as we've said, and XOS ends up being the super-duper systemd distro in some ways. Do you think you could give a real just brief high-level overview of what it's doing on the back end when I'm actually building? Because you tore into it a little bit, the scripts that it's actually executing. Yeah, well, it's got Lego to do acme and talk you know upstream to wherever cloudflare whatever your dns provider is or do stuff i guess with the http challenge if you want to go that way um so i think it mostly just sets up a systemd timer and service that can go have lego run on a schedule to you know check check when your cert expires go get a new

one when it needs to and then of course you can wire it together with systemd so that when that happens it can you know tell nginx to reload the certs it's where like the the systemd and the nixos stuff compare so nicely because you've got stuff happening at build time in the nixoverse and then systemd keeps adding all of these handy runtime options that you can configure from your config during build and then it sort of just ships them off, and SystemD actually does the, like, you know, handles executing the cron, like, functionality of, like, oh, yeah, hey, Lego, you're going to need to run again.

Yeah, by the time SystemD gets the information, it's got all your stuff filled out because you put it in your Nix config, and the Nix config generated that output. And it's just, it's so solid and so slick, and you solve it once once and it's done. These modules are really, they are just so slick when they work. And I'm reminded of in the Ansible world, at least.

Yeah, here I go with Ansible. Is Ansible Galaxy. This was supposed to be what Ansible Galaxy was doing for people. It was supposed to be a bunch of predetermined building blocks that you include into your playbook that spits out a fully configured system at the end but the difference with nix is the fact that you can switch out the entire symlink tree that forms your nixos system as easily as if you could switch out a kernel in grub and it's just it's just amazing, really, technically. And filling out a five-line NixOS config to me just seems so much simpler than actually configuring Nginx.

It's funny. I no longer configure Nginx directly. I configure it through NixConfig, and NixConfig is simple to read and repeat, and you do it with five lines. And then it does everything else for you. You know, what's funny is initially that put me off the project you know the air quotes the nicks way i think yeah uh this was when you were first talking about it and i was sort of sat over here like a bit of a luddite going

yeah nah not for me bro and then you wouldn't stop talking about it for years and i was like you know okay is this time i need need to try it again i think it it was while Brent was with me for that spring a couple of years ago. He forced me to pull out a Raspberry Pi and put Nix on it. And we tried it that evening. And I was like, you know what? This single configuration file is so elegant and so straightforward. You know, I could give this to my wife, who's not a Linux nerd, and say, right, just put this one file, type this one command and your entire system is done. You know, it's just, it's just beautiful. Oh yeah, right. This is Slackware week.

Well, since Brent's not here, I'll mention, If you haven't tried a new podcast app recently, go to newpodcastapps.com. Try out the new Fountain or Podverse. We're now live in the app on Sundays, so you can listen either once we post or when we're streaming. It'll all just be right there. You get a little pending notification when the stream has been scheduled. It's really, really slick. Hey, wouldn't you tell me that Fountain recently got back the ability to, you can use it just to send boosts with a QR code and you don't have to log in or have a Fountain account? You can do it from the Fountain website.

If you go to fountain.fm and you look for Linux Unplugged, you can actually boost there and you don't even have to use the app or switch. You just need anything that supports Lightning, like Strike or Cash App or anything. You name it. Thank you for the support. And thank you for boosting in. We love those messages. And I think we're going to try something new on the boost today. And now it is time for the boost. No sound effects. Wow.

Except for the baller booster. But no others. And let us know what you think. We want to hear your feedback. Because, you know, often people will kvetch about the sound effects. And I'm fine with not without doing them. But I think it adds to the fun sometimes. So we want to get your feedback.

So we're going to try it this week with the exception of our baller. Because Pre-Soker comes in with 75 000 cents boosting to say no other linux podcast has covered all the recent events like yours as a new linux user gave me a better picture of the wider community so thank you uh but if you could only do if you could only do one next year which would you choose you're asking me to pick a favorite false name well i think if there we go i love all my children i'm gonna selfishly say that if there's another uh nixcon co-located with scale that might tip how do you say no to that right and we love linux fest northwest we do, the commute for you boys is tough,

but yeah, LinuxFest Northwest is pretty good. Yeah, dang it, dang it, dang it. I'd have to go wherever NixCon is, though, probably. At least for the next year or so. There's going to be something to watch. Maybe, maybe. There is another one I want to try. KCDC in Kansas,

which is supposed to be a pretty good open source conference. Kansas meetup, all right. Yeah, let's do it. Hybrid sarcasm comes in with 42,000 sats. Oh, with the tailscale question. Perfect. I want to hear about your user authentication for tailscale. It's really easy to get up and running with GitHub, Google, etc.

But you end up tying yourself to one of these third parties, and there's no way to change later on this leaves a custom oidc solution but that seems a little daunting thoughts a custom oidc solution being like a custom identity provider yeah yeah i've thought about rolling my own uh so i'm going this is the point where i'm going to put a link in the show notes and tell you to read the uh f manual rtfm um there is a a link in the show notes and tell you to read the F manual, RTFM. There is a link on the Tailscale documentation talking about signing up with an email address. And specifically, it calls out why Tailscale doesn't do that.

By design, Tailscale is not an identity provider. There are no Tailscale passwords. By using external providers, we think it's not only more secure than an email and password that we would be in charge of, but it also allows us to automatically rotate connection keys, encryption keys, and follow security policies set by your team for multi-factor and so much more. I will say also, it is possible to change identity providers for almost all of the major ones that are supported with the exception of github and or apple i didn't realize apple was one interesting see for me it always made sense to just use our google app stuff because we use that for the back-end email so that always just kind of made sense for me but that's a good question yeah and you know it does kind of make sense too that for i think a lot of folks in some of the value from tailscale is that convenience

so having those super convenient options is there. And of course, there's a whole bunch of crazy WireGuard mesh solutions out there or things like Nebula. If you want to go totally rolling your own, you don't want to be tied to any third party. I would agree rolling your own OIDC solution might be a little daunting because we were talking about this in self-hosted just this week with a self-hosted bit warden versus a vault warden for example like there are just certain pieces of infrastructure that just need to always be up and with the best will in the world we all know that self-hosting sometimes the uh the number of nines is is less than we would like in terms of availability so yeah just um just be careful with that one yeah it's a tough one i think it's a tough one. I think it's easy. It's easy if you're a business or an enterprise.

It's a little bit harder. You just have to ask yourself, okay, which one do I want to go with or do I want to stand on my own if you're a home labber? Sam Bauer comes in with 31,000 sets. First time boost. Hey, Sam. Right on. Good job.

Well done, sir. Thank you for introducing me to NixOS. P.S. I listen at 1.5x. I am loving these speed reports. Good job. Well done, sir. Thank you for introducing me to NixOS. P.S. I listen at 1.5x. I am loving these speed reports. Me too. Thank you, everyone, boosting it. Yeah, I want more speed reports. 1.5 is, that's about at the max of my willingness to listen.

Yeah. I'll do like 1.5 for a lecture or like if we're going to cover a talk or something and we're looking for clips. Yeah, it's two hours long. Yeah, I got it. Yeah, I'll do it. I'll do I'll even do I'll I'll even bump it up a little bit. One five is maximum comfortable listening for me. Oh, we got a five boost pack from our pal Gene Bean.

Oh, look at that pack. Nine thousand three hundred and forty cents total. Hey, Gene. Well, Gene's reporting in that he bought a regular and a CMOS battery for an old XPS laptop from partspeople.com. Parts-people.com. That's right.

All right. So check them out for your parts need if you're trying to make that old Sputnik stay alive. They got stuff for Dells right here on the front of the page. XPS laptop. I'm already there. I know we're not doing effects today, but it's probably worth pointing out

that all of Gene's base, they're either Elite Sats I know we're not doing effects today, but it's probably worth pointing out that all of Gene's boosts, they're either lead sets or a row of ducks. Okay, admit it, right? We want some ducks, right? Don't we? Can we do the ducks?

I think Gene earned it. Yeah, Gene deserves the ducks. I'm sorry, I know I said no sound effects. I f***ing love those ducks. And then Gene's just reporting in with stuff. 1x listener always.

Okay. Fast fetch fan, which is sort of in response to talking about neo fetch going away fast plus one to fast fetch uh orientation lock is off 99.9 of the time for me whoa off yeah um oh he's on ios i bet yeah that's that's more common on ios i think i i'm willing to bet that i bet. I don't mean to be controversial here. But I think Android users need to lean on orientation lock a lot more than iOS users. Because first of all, there's no sideways mode for the home screen. Right.

So there's just less scenarios where your screen's flipping. Where it's actually going to. Yeah. And then last boost from Gene, just to say I really enjoyed the coverage of Red Hat Summit. Oh! Now to go read up about Image Mode. Thank you. You know, I always expect the event coverage to get the least amount of boosts because there's not a lot to comment on.

But yet on the backside, it takes so much damn work that it's like from a value point, like we really hustle hard. So I appreciate the value there, Gene. like we really hustle hard so i appreciate uh the value there gene caricia comes in with space balls boost one two three four five sats which is the combination on my luggage and they write i listen at 1.5 times speed when you guys really just sound like you look like a bunch you took it you guys sound like you took a bunch of adderall and then started a podcast but it makes it so that i can consume more podcasts in a short period of time. That's definitely true if you do the remove silence option as well. Yeah, right. Just smash it together.

You know, as an artiste, I feel like the answer here is just listen to less podcasts and just listen to ours. You're just spitting in the face of Drew. No, I definitely get it. Thank you. Hey, listener, Jeff Boosen with 12,345 cents. Extra bummed I missed joining Mumble with the live Drew. That was our episode last week.

One of these days, I will say hello in real time. As for the listening speed, all JB shows are 1x. Atta boy. The conversation and speaking cadence is just right. But there are some other podcasts I enjoy that I listen to at 1.75x. 1.75! Those other hosts just tend to speak too slowly or the shows are just too long. JB has set the standard for me probably because Last was the first live-action web show I

watched regularly as a young Linux newbie. We got a story out of this you know i feel like we're gonna have to go right to ludicrous speed i know i'm breaking my own rule but come on come on so when you say no sound effects it actually means like five or so yeah we're just setting up the translation there's no judgment you know you can't go cold turkey is what i'm discovering you can't go cold you got the cold sweats over there, don't you? I got the itch and everything. Appreciate that, Jeff. You know, 175, though, that's really something.

Bcook254 comes in with 10,508 sats, and this is a reverse zip code boost. Reverse? Yep, yep. And the map is real, so that's not a sound effect. Yeah, so 80501. That's a postal code in Boulder County, Colorado with the city of Longmont.

Hello, Longmont. Hello. First Linux box was a little server with an Intel Celeron G1820 and four gigs of RAM. I don't know it personally, but it sounds slow. Yeah, you don't start a fast CPU with a G. Or 7.

You know? Yeah. He says, it's still running today. My first daily driver is my Surface Pro 7, starting on Fedora 37 workstation and using the Linux-Surface kernel. Oh, wow. Oh, this CPU is a beast boys yeah two

cores two threads in 2014 at 2.7 gigahertz oh no oh yeah i bet that's real fun yeah two cores well you'll definitely be using all of your cores you never have to worry about right sitting there doing nothing from a utilization standpoint it's a very efficient CPU. I recently moved to UBlue and built my own bootable image based on their surface image. Ah, handy. Yeah. I built a second image based on their NVIDIA image from a desktop. Oh, yeah. That's kind of what I was talking about.

Mm-hmm. I even switched my Steam Deck to Bizzatile. Bizzite. Bizzite. Seeing Red Hat embrace this new tech is exciting. I agree. I agree. I agree.

It's nice to see them come along with this. Some good fundamentals in there. Distro Stu comes in with 12,345. So the combination is 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. That's the stupidest combination I ever heard in my life. Concerning your mention of getting media from your home desktop to your Android, have I got something for you. Alright. Tailscale has a built-in web-based file server.

No need to install PHP, long-running services, or Nix configs. I just run tailscale-serve and then the path to the media. Now in your tailnet, you can just visit your tailscale DNS name and get a file list. Even better, using Funnel, you can make it public if you need to perfect for sharing that one gigabyte video of the kids to mom without needing to upload anything anywhere once she sends the heart emoji control c and that server is gone this is really neat i gotta play around with this i have i think this is a relatively new like public feature and you know i do this a lot where i'm at home i've got a movie here at the studio i have my blu-ray copy of war games we watched it last night oh fun and i realized around two o'clock i'm gonna want to

get war games because it's like a you know it's a full blu-ray mkv i'm gonna want to get war games on my local media server and i can pull down about three megabytes 2.8 megabytes a second on the starlink so it's gonna take a bit to pull down you know a 16 gig or 18 gig mkv file so uh i thought i just crossed my mind this method but i wasn't sure how it worked so i i logged in, started a Zalgy session or whatever it's called, and just used Magic Wormhole like I always do between the two. And I think the Zalgy session is still running on both of them with the completed Magic Wormhole session. It'll be there for the next five years.

Yeah. This might be a little slicker. Brandon L comes in with 2,001 sats. I usually listen at 1.25, sometimes 1.33. Oh, whoa. If a player supports a more granular playback speed. By 1.5, comprehension and retention

start to suffer for me. Listen to the fine-grainedness here. 1.25 or 1.33. Wow, Brandon, you're dialing that in. I will say, when I listen at 1.5 for something that I'm trying to remember, because it goes faster, I actually think my retention is better. Like, it forces me to pay attention a little bit more.

You do have to do a very active listening. Yeah, active listening. I couldn't do the pod that way. I just don't think I could. Urza CC comes in with 3,459 sets, listening on 1.1x1 x i mostly listen in the car and i'm not in a hurry i like that because like if we were a little drunk we'd sound sober at one one that's true 10 hurry that's what that is you mean if we're a little drunk isn't that extended okay network rob comes in with one two three, 3, 4, 5 sats.

I just got back from a work trip and listened to you guys along the way. I normally sat stream, but when I got back, I realized the wall was empty. So, here's to make up for it with the great value y'all provide. To answer your question on playback speed, I stick with 1x. I like listening to the conversation as if I'm with you all. Keep up the great work. Thank you, Rob. Appreciate that. Moon Knight comes in with 12,345 sats.

This has been driving me crazy, and I'm done staying silent about it. All right. You're pronouncing Nixos wrong. It's pronounced Nixos, like the cereal. Oh. If anyone knows about pronunciation, it's our boy Chris.

Yeah, yeah. Nixos. Get your daily dose with yeah. Nixos. Get your daily dose with fortified Nixos. On a similar note, Tomato, I'm going to say. Tomato comes in with a row of ducks. Yeah, to-ho-mato. I appreciate the inconsistency in pronouncing my handle. We try.

Well, I think it might be th-o-mato then. There we go. All right. Also another vote there for covering what's going on with Knicks. Thank you, sir. Forward Humor came in with also another row of ducks. Oh, come on, Wes. That was Wes.

That one snuck in. That was Wes. Forward Humor writes, I don't normally listen at anything above 1x unless there's a bug that starts playing the podcast at 1.2x, which happened. Life moves too fast. My favorite moments in the week are slowing down and enjoying some Jupiter shows. Here's to more moments to pause and take a breath and admire the good things in life. Forward humor, that's really nice.

You know, one of the good things in life has been we're actually getting some sunshine again. Things are growing. This is like the time of year when the Pacific Northwest really starts to get purdy. Just gotta appreciate that. Just go for a little drive if you're in the area. Listen to the pod.

Um, Wes. Oh, it's Morse code. It's Morse. Yeah, you did this, Wes. Okay, I got a translator working. This translates to boost. All right. So, Opi1984 comes in with 4,000 sats and just simply says,

Boost! Thank you, Oppie. Appreciate that. Morse code. That's our first Morse code boost. VT52 comes in with a row of ducks. Ready those whips. Winamp is going open source in September.

Winamp. It really whips the llama's ass. I'm so glad you had that sound effect ready. Winamp. Winamp. It really whips the llama's ass. I'm so glad you had that sound effect ready. Good boy. I think this is, like, one of the top stories sent into the show this week. They know we care. It's awesome.

How long until Flatpak, do you suppose? Great question. I'm going to say two days. Two days? Okay. Winamp's the original AI app, by the way. You know, powered by llamas. question i'm gonna say two days two days okay winamps the original ai app by the way you know oh it is alex that's a that's a solid dad joke right there thank you i'm very impressed monkey rotter comes

in with a row of ducks boosting from phoenix to say how much i appreciate you guys i just subbed to the jupiter dot party awesome and realized I've also saved enough sats on Fountain to send some ducks. Well, here you go. I've only been listening since October, but I've learned so much from the shows, and I finally got the courage to ditch Windows for Ubuntu back in January, and I haven't looked back. Yeah!

Congrats. Yeah! That's great. Maybe a few more months and I'll be dabbling with Nix. You could always throw Nix on Ubuntu. That's right. Just dabble. Let us know how it goes. It's just a K exec away, eh, Wes?

That's right. It's not Rotter, by the way, Wes. Okay, Monkey Otter. Jeez. Where did you get an R in there? It's not embarrassing for you. Okay, and our last regular boost here from Torped. 5,150

sats via Podverse. This past tax season in the US, I learned you can donate stocks to charities and they can receive the full value of that stock without the capital gains tax that would incur if you sold the stock and then gave the proceeds

to charity. so i'd like to buy stocks in listed open source companies and donate them to non-profit open source organizations do y'all have any suggestions for good picks for the former or the latter game stop no just kidding game stop oh baby i mean i can't think of a lot of public open source companies. I can obviously think of a few examples, but I can't think of a lot. IBM, isn't that? I'm going to use my phone, a friend, and you phone the boosters. Maybe people can boost it if they've got ideas.

Yeah. What we need is some good meme tokens. No, I'm totally kidding. I know, obviously, there's going to be IBM, and there's companies that are definitely open source adjacent, but it kind of makes me really wonder if we could ever see a canonical IPO here in the States and see canonical listed on the U S stock market. That'd be really cool. Raspberry Pi is making moves.

Yes, that's true. Yeah. Although are they open source now? Yeah, pretty much. Would you buy stock in them though? No.

If you listen to all the old Chris. Yeah. The old Chris. Yeah you buy stock in them, though? No. If you listen to the old Chris, yeah. The old Chris, yeah. He was stacking those Raspberry Pis. We're past the boost limit, but we did get a few more reports of various listening speeds in here. You're right. We did, didn't we? 1.4. 1.5 slash mostly 2x.

Jeff of the Jungle listening at 2x. You don't sound stressed. He says you sound excited. Oh my goodness. Sometimes 2x from Nacho Linux. I'm a little surprised by how high these, like I expected them to be over one, obviously. But I was thinking like, yeah,

somewhere between like up to maybe 1.3, maybe the 1.5, but between 1.5 and 2 is well represented. 1.5 to 2 is way more represented i see a 1.7 here again i are you all 20 is anybody like 40 listening at 1.7 and the only way i can get up to like 1.7 2x is i gotta like turn it up slowly you know i can start 1, 2, and then 1, 5, and I got to chill it there for a bit, and I can crank it up. But it takes me. I imagine some of these psychopaths are just jumping in the car and hitting play at a full 2x. Yeah, Notchalytics justifies it once you subscribe to 30-plus podcasts.

You don't really have a choice. Yeah, well, I mean, I admire your endurance. That's impressive. You should, just to really make it extra challenging, get the members version. So it's a super long show. Thank you, everybody who boosts in. We really appreciate it. We had 28 boosters and we stacked 260,119 sets.

But we really appreciate everybody who boosts in. You know, not only are you supporting the show, but unlike any other podcast app, the boosts also help support the developer who creates the show. But unlike any other podcast app, the boost also help support the developer who creates the app. So they don't have to come up with these cockamamie schemes. They get a little bit of that. Also the podcast index does. It's a great way to support the podcasting community while you're also boosting this here show. We really appreciate it.

Thank you. Everybody who does that are also streams those sets. We really appreciate you and a shout out to our core contributors. Thank you, members. You don't get a boost in here, but we do think of you constantly. Wes has a tattoo. It's infected, but it's definitely a pretty sweet tattoo. I thought it was tasteful, but I should have paid more than 50 bucks for it.

That's definitely a problem. Yeah, that's what happens when you get tats when you're drunk. All right, I have a pick for you this week that isn't going to blow your socks off, but one day you're going to thank me. You're going to thank me because it takes Rclone and it puts it into a GTK4 GUI that just makes it nice and approachable. And you can have multiple different types of Rclone connections. I guess I should back up. If you're not familiar with Rclone, get familiar. Yeah, get familiar because it's a great tool to move data onto all different types of cloud storage from like S3

to SFTP, WebDAV, everything. Individual services as well. And then what I'm picking today is Rclone Shuttle, which is a GUI that sits on top of that and you can upload files to any of the supported cloud storage providers that Rclone can talk to. And you have a column on the left side that lists each one of those cloud providers, and on the right side, you can browse that directory in a GUI, upload and download files to it. It can handle encryption. It can open up remote files locally just by double-clicking on them, pull them down, open them for you. It makes it really approachable.

Man, it's already packaged on Flathub. It's written in Rust. This is a great pick. Yeah. Darn you. Thank you. You like it? Good.

All right. I do. I got it. Yeah, I just thought. So the back end is I've been playing around with ArcCon a little bit more to move data between systems, and I just thought, you know, what if I wanted to just browse that now really simply? And then that's

how I discovered that. Rclone Shuttle, yeah, it is on Flathub as well. It's kind of a nice way to layer it too, right? You kind of get the GUI functionality for the task that makes sense, but the core tool is still optimized around the command line and set up for automation

and all kinds of different workflows. I'd love your feedback on our coverage of the NIC situation. And if you feel like there's an area we need to do a little bit of follow-up or correction, please do let us know. And also check out the most recent self-hosted. Alex and I got into Image getting full support by Futo. So they're going full-time over there. And I know some of you in the audience have been submitting that story about image getting full-time support alex and i broke down what's going on over there and a bunch of other stuff over at self-hosted.show

if i may as well um i was just on changelog and friends with adam over at changelog uh changelog.com episode 44 under the Friends feed. And links to what we talked about today will be at linuxunplugged.com slash 563. I'd love to have you join us live. We do it Sundays at noon Pacific, 3 p.m. Eastern. See you next week. Same bad time, same bad station. And if you do have a podcasting 2.0 app, you can just listen in your app.

Otherwise, join us at jblive.fm. And, you know, know thanks y'all for being here for slackware week yeah it was a special one yeah i guess so right we enjoyed it i think i'm sure it'll all come out in the editing so i'm sure i'm sure they'll sort it out bet it was great 12 hour marathon show of course about slackware it's going to be edited down to under an hour i mean it's unbelievable. I'd love to know what you think which distro we should do next. Let us know. Thank you so much for joining

us on this week's episode of the Unplugged program. And we'll see you right back here next Tuesday, as in Sunday. Thank you.