LINUX Unplugged - Episode 100: Still Minty Fresh | LUP 100

Episode Date: July 8, 2015

We reflect on 100 episodes of LINUX Unplugged, the themes from episodes past & then review Linux Mint 17.2 Cinnamon edition. Then we’ll discuss an exciting new form factor for x86 based Ubuntu PCs & the exciting use cases for them.

You know, I happen to believe a lot of people, like, they would try to go, they try to have, like, a big bang for their 100th episode. You know, they try to do something big. Naturally. But I feel like, no, 100 should be your low point. Like, if you can, make 100 worse than episode 1. So that way, nobody says, man, they really peaked at episode 100. That's right. Like, you can say, boy, I feel like at episode 100, like, they got their second win.

So I think we just got to make a horrible show today, and we're fine. I think it's good that you're setting everyone's expectations for the year. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, I like that. Yeah, we're struck in the eye. That's right. I'm going to go for a more intimate feeling.

We're going to be more together and it's not going to be just a big bang. It's going to be just condensed and we're going to all express our opinions and then you just take it to like, this is going to be terrible. Yeah. Low expectations. There's no disappointment. You guys, yeah. Yeah. You guys ever see that Mad TV bit about lowered expectations?

Lowered expectations. That's beautiful, man. That was really nice. This is Linux Unplugged, episode 100 for July 7th, 2015. Welcome to Linux Unplugged, your weekly Linux talk show that's honestly struggling with a bit of food coma from a little bit too much barbecue. My name is Chris, and joining me in studio, well, one of the several gentlemen joining me in studio is Wes. Hey, Wes. Hey, gang. Hey there. Welcome, and thanks for joining me in studio and eating my barbecue.

My pleasure. Last week, I put the call out. I said, you know, for episode 100, I wanted to do a meetup, but we have so much going on. We've just done a bunch of meetups, and we have a couple of coming up. Kind of didn't really fit in the schedule, so why not just have people over to the studio and do a little cookout? We had six people rsvp and we had a pool going i said three would show up i nailed it three people showed up were you the first to make it i think so yeah yeah it was nice it was good and so we had i had the barbecue going i figured because we're up north a little bit people usually show up a little late so i didn't even start the barbecue until like

about the time i thought people were maybe supposed to start showing up so that way there was plenty of time. And then as people trickled in, we had the barbecue ready to go. We've been talking Linux. It's been nice. Oh, yeah. Played a little Ronald Jenkies while we ate. And so I thought today, to celebrate episode 100,

we would do the only thing proper. The only thing you're supposed to do for your 100th episode is not plan anything. Clip show. Yeah. Clip show. That would actually be even better. It's just sit back here, play all the clips. We don't do anything.

We just play everything. No. Actually, that would have been way more clever, actually. I should have thought of that. No, no. Today we'll do. Yeah, we'll do it for 200. Exactly.

Today we'll do a brief retrospect. We'll do a little navel gazing, but we won't go too far. We've got to look back over the 100 weeks that this show's been on the air. And I don't think we've missed a single week. I don't think. I don't think so. And some really interesting stuff has developed. And then we're going to have a review of the new Linux Mint release

based on Cinnamon, the 17.2. And then towards the end of the show, a brand-new tiny, tiny device is running Linux that is x86-based, and you're going to be able to get your hands on it for pretty cheap really soon. So before we dig into all of that, let's bring in that virtual lug. Time-appropriate greetings! Mumble Room! Beep, beep.

Thank you, guys. Hello. Huge turnout today. Look at that. It's scrolling off the screen there. We've got so many people in the Mumble Room. Hey there, guys. Popey must start before I'm done. That's the only way I can figure, because he's always in there first.

He nails it. So we're going to talk about a little bit of the show's history. So that's one of the reasons why Wes here is joining us in the first segment, is out of the group here, Wes has been probably watching since closest from the beginning.

What, you said about a couple years? Yeah, I think about episode 18. Okay, not bad. All right, so guess what? This is all going to be in your wheelhouse then. So I think about episode 18. Okay, not bad. All right. Well, so guess what? This is all going to be in your wheelhouse then. So I didn't want to go like way, way, way, way far back, but let's start with more recent history. Some episodes that were just kind of my favorites of Linux Unplugged.

These are like if you're new to the show, we'll just point out a couple of things that I thought were interesting, and you guys can chip in if you want or not. But starting kind of more recently, episode 70 when we looked at, well, first of all, we talked with the Fedora project about them switching to this ring cycle where they have Fedora Core again, Fedora Workstation, Fedora Server, and all of that

was around the Fedora 21 release and the restructuring of their project. And I really, we did a couple of week coverage of that, and we had them come on and discuss it with us and do a roundtable discussion. I thought that was a really interesting way to sort of approach, like, a big, well-known distro going through a major restructuring to really help people wrap their heads around it. And so thought that was a really interesting way to sort of approach like a big, well-known distro going through a major restructuring to really help people wrap their heads around it. And so that was in Episode 7.

I'm thinking in the future if there was a distro that had a big change like that, it's nice to kind of just really double down on it. I think that's one of the best things about Unplugged is you can connect developers with the people who are actually using them. Yeah, they come into the room. Yeah. I like that. Right there. And sometimes like, you know, behind the scenes, RottenCorp is can attest to this are you still in there rotten yep we've had to have rotten write up a tutorial and like he you know he has to work with the guests a lot of times

to get them set up with mumble because we have them come in and hang out with the rest of the lug and you know a lot of times like uh the last time matt from fedora was on the project he he actually had to get and build and package Mumble for Fedora 22 because there wasn't a Mumble available for Fedora 22 yet so sometimes our guests will go really above

it's just peer pressure our guests will go above and beyond because they have to go install this extra piece of software configure it to our Mumble server but then they get to hang out and the people in the room can ask questions too. So that's pretty neat. So while we're still navel-gazing and we're looking back,

let's keep going back to episode 68. That's when we talked to Charlie and his students from Penn Manor School District where we got to talk about how they gave each student root access to their rigs. That was episode 68, Linux-powered schools. I love the concept of trusting the students with root access and the way Charlie empowered students to be the IT people

and all of that was really neat. And now they're still getting some recognition. They just got written up in a Red Hat magazine just recently. Oh, and it's just up there, Robe from Warhead. Episode 57, going right through these because I hate talking about ourselves, SystemD haters busted. There was a whole swath of System D. This is the part I've been rushing towards. Man.

Did we have some serious System D episodes? Another one. Another seminal. Seminal? Seminal. Seminal. Thank you. Thank you, Wes. Another really important System D episode was episode 27, Debian's System D decision where it was announced.

Can you believe it was that long ago it seems ages ago february 11th 2014 one of the bumpier chapters in debian's history it looks to be drawing to a close at least for now what was all the drama about it was the switch to system d now it seems so far ago you know no problems i'm so glad that being in Ubuntu, I've switched to system D now. Have you noticed how it's all gone quiet? Yeah, it really has in a big way, hasn't it? What do you think that means? I think it means all the haters were making a fuss about nothing because they didn't know what they were talking about, which I think succinctly summarizes what we were saying at the time.

Yeah, it means they actually tried it finally. Or they don't realize they're using it now because it just works yeah wes have you any experience i think that's i think that's a little unfair i think that's characterizing everyone who was anti-system d as a hater is a little bit unfair because some of them weren't some of them were yes okay it's a generalist yeah yeah i agree i'm referring I agree. I'm referring to the peanut gallery. I think a better summary would be that the haters have moved on. The rest of us have made do or enjoyed it.

Yeah, I guess maybe that's it, too. The haters, they're just not using systems that use systemd. Right, there are options out there. Free BSD converts, perhaps. So as we're talking about systemd, who's installed dev1 recently? Dev1? I haven't heard anything about that. No, I haven't either.

And the room goes silent. Yeah. I forgot that existed. Yeah, I haven't, but I... I wonder what they did with all your money. Oh, that's right. They were taking donations. How about that?

How about that? So, yeah, boy, the SystemD stuff was really fascinating. I mean, it's such a range that it covered. And I know there's a certain amount of time where it really got burned out, but now we have a little bit of interesting history in there. Wow. Boy, that is really something.

So Wes, have you had a chance to use it much? Yeah, I mean, I run Arch at home, so systemd is pretty much on all of my systems. I use a lot of legacy init scripts at work and having a sane status command, regardless of if the author of the init script bothered to write one, is a godsend. Yeah, once you use it in a production environment,

if in a server environment, it's very nice. There's a lot of places, a lot of moments in Unplugged's history where we talked about Docker. And following Docker, you know, following Docker, it's been really fascinating. Episode 16, Meet the Dockers, a new version of Docker was released, so we brought on the CTO and founder of Docker to chat about

the big features of Docker. And that was really like an interesting moment in Docker history before, well before the 1.0, well before the partnership with Red Hat and VMware and all the other companies that they now work with. But well before CoreOS and Rocket and all the other companies that they now work with. Well before CoreOS and Rocket and all of that, we talked with the CTO and founder of Docker in episode

16. I thought that was pretty interesting. Oh, and Rodney, did you have any? I'm just saying it kind of sounds like Linux Unplugged is like container hipsters. We were hip to Docker before everybody else was. Coder Radio has this beat by a few weeks actually.

Mike found Docker before everybody else was. Coder Radio has this beat by a few weeks, actually. So Mike found Docker before Docker was even like, he found it really early on when they were just desperate to get people to know about it. And then one of the most popular, and of course the older the show is, the more downloads it gets. So this isn't a super fair metric, but episode 15 of Linux Unplugged,

Don't Switch to Linux, has been one of the most popular episodes on YouTube. And one of the, like, people have written me saying that I have done more damage to Linux with this episode title than in any other. Don't Switch to Linux, I have been told, is single-handedly hurting a Linux adoption because of that title. But at least you got a legacy. I guess that's, after all this work, that'll be my legacy. at least you got a legacy. I guess that's, after all this work, that'll be my legacy.

You know, if I recall, it was like, what episode 15 was about was Linux is amazing, but we're just going to tell you, here's a couple of the elephants in the room when you switch. You got to be real. Yeah. And like I was just telling you guys during lunch, our former nanny, who is no longer our nanny, her MacBook died. And so Noah got her Dell laptop. And she liked it. She likes it.

Oh, I was already using LibreOffice. She says it was great. Oh, I was already using Firefox. It's great. And I'm thinking to myself, this is going to be perfect. So I think you put Ubuntu LTS on there. And she had it for about two days. And then she calls me up and she says, so, Chris?

Yeah, what's up? I'm having a hard time with something. What is it? I can't, is there no iTunes for Linux? I'm like,

oh, no, there's no iTunes, Jenny. I didn't even, I didn't even think to tell her. Of course not.

I mean, I don't use iTunes. Who uses iTunes? A lot of people use iTunes, but Linux users don't use iTunes. But those are the kinds

of things that we covered in the Don't Switch to Linux. It's like there's a lot of good stuff, but there's some gotchas too. And so I was surprised by the reaction because I felt like if you listen to the episode, it was kind of obvious what we were trying to go for. But boy, did we get a lot of hate for that. And so episode 15, that was like ever since then, I was like, oh, I don't want to be flame baiting the titles anymore. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. But

we've matured since then. The real funny thing about Linux Unplugged is it started as a show simply to handle the overflow of mail we were getting from the Linux Action Show. I was getting so much email and this is well before we had the

contact forms really good and we had the subreddit as a really good form for feedback so everything was coming to my inbox and I realized I was spending as much time reading email every week as I would just to prep a show so then I thought well here's an idea why don't I just turn all this email reading into show

prep and I'll just sit down and I'll read and respond to emails nobody will want to listen to a show like that, but if I'm going to do it anyways, I'll just do it. And so that was like episode one, you know, it was like, yeah, maybe I'll try like, here's a concept episode two and three, you know, go doc yourself. What was that about? Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

That was a little Katie hate. You know, I played with it a little and then I realized pretty early on that nobody, nobody wants to listen to a show where some guy's reading email. Nobody is. Yeah, you'd think so. Which show did you introduce the mumble chat room then? I think it was this show. I think so.

No, no, as in which episode? Oh. That'd be a good thing to find. Oh, that is a really, really good question. Do you think it wasn't in episode one? It was episode one. I'm thinking maybe. I'll chat with our live hangout.

Maybe we did a hangout for the first episode. But yeah, we had a panel discussion about, our first episode we talked about the Lava Bit shutdown and if it was time to start rolling our own email servers. That was our panel discussion on the first episode it looks like. So it started out dicey. Yeah. Yeah, the L kind of a was kind of a mess wasn't it i remember that levar levinson and the whole uh he was hosting snowden's emails right yeah that's that's right that was what lava bit was about now he's off doing the dark mail initiative and i think we

interviewed in one of our shows even might have been unplugged uh that's a great question though yeah i do read it's funny i uh greater says now i no longer read emails and love i don't read as in one of our shows even. It might have been unplugged. That's a great question, though. Yeah, I do read. It's funny. Grader says, now I no longer read emails in love. I don't read as many. I do read a few,

but yeah, I don't read as many now because we read more emails in Linux Action Show these days. So it kind of softened up on that. Well, the mumble room brings all the complaints that you could possibly want. That's true. We got live feedback right there, right? And you got a chat room.

You got a chat room, too. Hey, you know what? Something that just crossed my mind. I got to get your info before you go. I got to get everybody who visited today. We're going to give away a special, for you guys who visited, a special Linux Unplugged 100 t-shirt. Oh, boy.

I will just remind everyone I was here first. Yeah. So there you go. So and we're going to make it available just for like a day or two or probably like a couple of days. If you would like to pick it up out there in the audience teespring.com slash lup100 It's just a shirt we threw together to celebrate episode 100. We're not going to make a big run of it. We're not going to make a big deal. I don't even think we'll probably update

the website. So it's just for you guys if you're a fan of the show and we're selling it basically at cost $19 because once you add shipping and stuff it's going to be a little bit more than that. So it's just for you guys if you're a fan of the show. And we're selling it basically at cost, $19. Because once you add shipping and stuff, it's going to be a little bit more than that. And there's also a long-sleeve version, which are pretty great. And it's at teespring.com slash lup, L-U-P, 100, if you would like it. And for you guys who visited, just give me your deets, and I'll forward them on to Ange, and she'll order some for you guys because you made the trip.

And I'll put a link to that in the chat room, too. Again, that's teespring.com slash L-U-P 100 if you want to grab it. And I don't know how long we'll run it, because I really just kind of want to be something special just for those of you who listened to episode 100 of the Unplugged program. That was something Ange wanted to do, too. And we only need three more prints to make the run, because we're just doing a couple.

So it'll be running, I guess it's running for 14 days. I guess we'll probably just run the clock out on it. That probably makes the most sense. Teespring.com slash LEP100. All right. So that'll bring us to the end of the navel gazing. I appreciate you guys letting me do that. I thought it was fun to kind of look back over 100 weeks and see some of the more interesting

things that have developed. And, you know, it's funny because on the pre-show, we're like, no, we don't want to talk about this again. Oh, we don't want to talk about this. And we were talking about Firefox and SystemD. And the reality is we feel like we talk ourselves out too much. Like it's, oh my gosh, we've beat it to death. But when you go back with a little perspective and look at it,

and I'm just saying this based on, you know, 300 plus episodes of last too, it's an uncanny time capsule. It is like getting in a time machine and going back to that moment and you realize there was so – like we look back at this stuff now and we see it in very broad terms. The Debian distribution switched over to system D and there was some debates and there was infighting. But back then, the nuance is so rich and so detailed that when you actually go back and listen to the back catalog, you're like, wow, I can't believe we were worried about this. Or, oh, man, that was such a big deal. And like, it's very fascinating.

So, and it's all there. What's that? It's a good retrospect. Yeah. Yeah. For $200, we should actually clip it all together. That's a good idea. I like that.

Thank you. Thank you. That was good thinking. All right. Well, so we're going to shift gears and talk about Linux Mint 17.2 and the flavor of cinnamon that you can get with that edition. But first, I want to tell you about our first sponsor, and that is DigitalOcean. In fact, go over to DigitalOcean.com right now and remember our promo code of absolute power and wisdom.

That is D-O, unplugged, one word, lowercase, D-O, unplugged. That'll give you a $10 credit over at DigitalOcean, and then you can try out their $5 rig, two months, for free. Now, DigitalOcean is a simple cloud hosting provider dedicated to offering the most intuitive and easy way to spin up your own cloud server. Now, a cloud server is really a rig up on the DigitalOcean data center that is powered by Linux, running on top of Linux in the KVM virtualizer. And you can choose from CoreOS, FreeBSD, Fedora, Ubuntu, Debian, lots of distributions to pick from, one-click application deployments, and you can get started in less than 55 seconds.

I can't even believe this. As somebody who used to create virtual machines for a living using clunky VMware ESXi platform tools and things like that, where I had to run a Windows box to create a Linux machine those days, to be able to create a machine in 55 seconds blows my freaking mind. And at $5 a month, you're going to get 512 megabytes of RAM, a 20-gigabyte SSD, one CPU, and a terabyte of transfer. A terabyte. Geez, wow.

And here's the other great thing. DigitalOcean has data center locations in New York, San Francisco, Singapore, Amsterdam, and London. They've got a brand new hotness in Germany with 40 gigabyte E connections to each hypervisor. They're fastest SSDs yet, and that thing is located in great, great, great locations. All of its neighbors have fantastic speed. But look at DigitalOcean's interface. In fact, it's worth using our promo code just to play with that. Go over to DigitalOcean.com.

Use the promo code DOUnplug. Get that $10 credit. Also help support this show. And then try out their interface. You know, it's super intuitive. It supports web standards, which is really nice, which means it's going to work on your tablet or your desktop. That is great if you're on the go.

They also have a fantastic API that allows you to replicate the functionality. Really, really well done. And there's so many great community apps built around that API. For like me, I just take advantage of those apps. And for those of you out there that use Unity for your desktop,

there are applets that snap right in to the Ubuntu desktop to manage your droplet. I don't actually know how well they work on other desktops, but I did notice they're also available in the AUR, so GNOME users and whatnot, I think you could actually install them as well. There's also tons of command line applications, Android, iOS management tools,

things to snap it into Puppet, whatever you need to do. There's probably somebody who's already written some code for it, or you can take advantage of that API. Just remember that promo code. That's what supports this show and keeps us going for another 100 episodes. D-O-Unplugged. You apply that, you get a $10 credit.

No credit card required. D-O-Unplugged. Try out their $5 rig. Two months for free. If you're in our chat room right now, the functionality of the JBot, powered by a DigitalOcean droplet. My chat room, powered by a DigitalOcean droplet using QuasalCore. My own cloud. My BitTorrent sync. My Minecraft servers.

The backend systems that we use for transferring files between on location and production in the studio, all of it powered by DigitalOcean, our Jitsi server that we bounce off of a DigitalOcean droplet. I'm telling you, it can be your back-end infrastructure for testing or for production. DigitalOcean.com. Use the promo code DL1plugged and a big, big thank you to DigitalOcean for sponsoring the Linux Unplugged program. You guys are fantastic. All right, well, now sitting down to join me at the mic is

Romeo. Hey, Romeo, welcome to Linux Unplugged, man. Hey, Chris. So, thank you, first of all, for making the trip out from Portland, right? Yeah, yeah. Good man. And also, not only that, you also volunteered to be our Linux Mint 17.2 Cinnamon user, and so I saw you have it installed here on a Lenovo laptop.

Is it a Lenovo? Oh, it is a Lenovo. Okay. See, I thought it was a Lenovo. And what do you think of it? What do you want to start? How is the installation experience out of box, Wi-Fi, hardware? How does all that work for you?

Well, I mean, installation is pretty standard nowadays. I mean, we nailed that a while ago. It's nothing to write home about. It's a Linux installation from a USB. It's what it is. Wi-Fi worked out of the box, which it didn't in 17.1 when I used this laptop. It's a Broadcom in that?

Yeah, Broadcom chip, which was exciting. I was pretty hyped about that. And it carried over my Wi-Fi settings from the install. I love that. I thought that that was really cool. Yeah, and more and more distros are doing that, and man, does it stand out now when a distribution doesn't do that. Yeah, definitely.

I didn't notice a whole lot of changes when I was just using it regularly. Theming is really easy. Do they still support the automatic downloading of themes online inside the like theme control panel no at least not that I

could find it seems that they've removed that functionality I don't really know why you have to download them manually and call them into your dot themes which

isn't difficult but my grandma wouldn't do it right having it built in there is very nice sort of KDE-esque too

yeah yeah they I looked at the changelog and they they say they they fix a screensaver not actually being a screensaver. Nice. They put some new repos on, but it's only 14.04. I mean... Yeah, that's right.

Right. Did you feel that when you were using it? Does it feel old? It feels sluggish. Even though they say that they've improved and sped up and optimized Cinnamon a lot, I didn't feel it. For me, it felt slower than when I used 17.1. Maybe it's drivers being weird.

Maybe it's something else. But I didn't feel the speed improvements they were talking about. And admittedly, this is on a very low-end laptop. It's a ThinkPad X131E, which isn't the best, but, I mean, it should be able to run Cinnamon. Yeah, and it's ran it before. Yeah, it has. And it has an Intel graphics, so you've played Race the Sun on it, so it can do 3D acceleration. I believe it's actually AMD.

Oh, okay. But it's enough to actually have 3D compositing. Yeah. So Cinnamon should have everything it needs to be snappy. It is, but... And the Cinnamon menu still hasn't opened. When I hit the... Is that... Hit it again. Did it even register?

Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, that is a bit laggy. Yeah. So I thought that was worth mentioning. What was neat was all of my little function keys, like my play and pause and brightness, and those all worked out of the box,

which they didn't last time. So it seems kind of like they're just making it more stable, making it more of a distro that'll just work on everything. I noticed they're refining a few things that seemed kind of appealing. Like, I don't know if you had a chance to play with this, but I guess they have like a new inhibit feature for notifications now. I didn't play with that, but I did see that they did that and I thought that it was cool. Yeah, that's nice. It's just, you know what, I don't need any notifications for a while. No boxes popping up for a little bit. Just turn this crap off. That's a great idea. And not just that, but it also

disables your screensaver and screen blanking in total, which on my desktop, I just wrote a script for that. Yeah. It's cool that they've included that. Caffeine is another desktop application you can get that'll do that. Yeah, yeah. And it's nice, like, when you're watching a movie or a live show,'ve included that. Caffeine is another desktop application you can get that'll do that. Yeah, yeah. And it's nice, like, when you're watching a movie or a live show, something like that.

And when I looked at, like you were saying, what I saw was, like, so one of the things they've listed is improved system settings, like a better layout of the system settings. And when you go through there now, does it feel like it's one nice, cohesive place to configure the system? I went into the system settings, and I didn't notice anything, which I think is what they were going for. Yeah, it's probably a good sign. Yeah, because it felt a little hodgepodge in the past. And then looking at these screenshots, it seems pretty good. Now, Wimpy, I think on the pre-show you were mentioning you might have had some questions regarding the Cinnamon release of Mint. Or I'm sorry, of Mint. Well, you've just covered some of it there.

I mean, I find listening to podcasts that do distro reviews really useful because I have two long commutes a day and I can listen to other people reviewing distributions and I can get hints and ideas about how to improve the one I make. So all of this I find fascinating. I am intrigued by your experience with it being based on 14.04.

So I'm assuming UserLand applications all feel very current and modern, right? It's the latest Firefox. Yeah, I mean, all that stuff, it's fine. Yeah, it's all taken care of. It's usable, but I don't know. I don't know why they went with 14.04. Do you do me a favor? What's the version of the kernel it's using there?

Do you give it a U name or something for me? I'm just kind of curious to see. They probably have it listed on the specs page. Now, here's the nice thing about this. So it sounds like your biggest takeaway is the performance is not quite as good as you're hoping, especially since they kind of made that a cornerstone aspect of the release. But the flip side is this is a long-term supported edition. So this is something you could give friends or family and they would have years of patches coming from this

thing so that's that's something to consider wimpy you wanted to jump in well you were you were saying about you know why is it based on 1404 and this was something i discussed with clem way back when this was first right oh yeah you remind me put out as an idea well it really comes down to the fact that um with each new version of ubuntu the minty team being outside of the ubuntu you know family if you like they had to keep re-engineering things and fixing things and moving with this shifting base system and one of and one of the other criticisms was um that you couldn't upgrade between you know mint releases um or you could sometimes and sometimes it didn't work so well so the decision was was to base on an lts

and then iterate on top of a stable largely unchanging base system so they could actually concentrate on developing their own tools and applications without having the constant churn beneath them with the uh the operating system changing so that was the rationale and part of that was fueled by uh when is system d going to land uh what's happening with waylandland and Mere, and what that might mean for distribution such as Mint and Elementary and how they would have to adapt. It buys them a couple years to let that kind of thing shake out.

Yeah, just let those things shake out. Now also, I've been reading online that a lot of people are upgrading from 17.1 to 17.2, which is not something normally done in a Mint release, but I guess because they're both based on 14.04, there's actually a way to do this now. Yeah, because you're not doing a distribution release upgrade.

You're effectively upgrading packages on top of a base OS. Which is nice for Mint users. That's always been a mismatch. In Mint, it's great for people that aren't very comfortable, but every time you want to go to the next version, you have to completely reload. They're actually going to do that another time for the next release, which is 17.3. And the next one, who knows,

because that's going to be 18, and it's going to be LTS to LTS. So maybe they'll have an upgrade, maybe not. Yeah. Now, did you see the kernel version there? Yes, I've got 3.16. 3.16's not bad. Okay. Alright. So it's not 3.16. 3.16 is not bad. Okay. All right. So it's not 3.13.

That's all I care about. It's also actually got a kernel versioning manager thing. Right. So you can actually update and choose which kernel you want. Or avoid it altogether, I think, too. Yeah. Yeah. As well.

Interesting. There's actually a lot of things that they're doing that are LTS based but they are actually updating packages and updating different security software and stuff outside of just the LTS of point releases they're doing more than just that there's a few applications that

I've experienced where they've actually updated in the past couple months or so that were like a year old in the past couple months or so that were like a year old in the Ubuntu versions. So they're not doing it for everything, but they're doing it a lot more than any other distro based on LTS.

Do you remember which applications those were? No, I don't. I remember some of the applications that are not in the repo at all that they added some proprietary stuff, like they added Sublime and stuff like that. I like that. Sublime's great.

Last week, what I was trying to sort of haphazardly say, and I'll just very plain stately say this time, is I'm still a little confused why I wouldn't go with Ubuntu Mate or Ubuntu LTS itself over Mint. If I'm really going out on a ledge, say I'm going to pull a Noah and I'm going to ship somebody a laptop halfway across the country and I'm never even probably going to see them, I don't know if I would do anything but an official Ubuntu flavor for that person because it just feels like uh it is you're deviating the further you deviate from that

official status like the the more room there is for something you don't know about or something you don't have oversight over or something just weird to break i don't know i maybe it's it seems like a it doesn't seem like a main issue because i've moved people to mint and had success with it and i have never had a problem but i'm just trying to think like where if I'm trying to pick between the two what the core advantage over say Mint Cinnamon Edition is say over Ubuntu Mate or Ubuntu 14.04 LTS what do you think?

I feel like Mint Cinnamon tries to be intentionally a lot like Windows the start menu is very similar to Windows the two finger scrolling isn't a thing they use the Windows edge scrolling. Right. The general feel.

Just the general usage of it feels a little bit like Windows, but almost like not in a bad way, though. Sometimes I'll say that to put something down, like, oh, it feels like I'm using Windows 7. And maybe somebody might describe an old version of KDE like that. But with Cinnamon, it's got a start menu, but it's now a better start menu than what Windows has. Right? Like it's like they've refined it in a way where they took some concepts that if you're familiar with Windows, you'll see they're here in Cinnamon. And they'll be somewhat reminiscent, but they're not like a one-to-one copy of the concept.

Do you agree? Yeah. It's easy for the Windows people to get into, which is what everyone's been saying about Mint since as long as I can remember. That really is a main advantage to it, isn't it? And one of the big advantages to it is if you're switching a Windows user, that's going to be kind of comfortable for Cinnamon.

How's the stability been? Any crashing or anything like that? I haven't had any crashing, other than the general sluggishness. Yeah. Corky wants to throw his hat in the ring. Go ahead. Corky wants to throw his hat in the ring. Go ahead, Corky. I'd have to say Cinnamon is definitely the most important thing about Linux Mint. I've, for switches, I've used Cinnamon 4

because I find it great for switching people, and Linux Mint is the only way you can go if you want proper Cinnamon implementation. And you like GTK apps too, which is nice. If you still like the GTK apps but you want something a little more traditional and GNOME 3 isn't your thing or it's going to be way too different if you're switching and you

don't want to go to KDE, yeah, I like that. Okay, so 17.2 and if you have any experiences with it out there and want to share with us, linuxactionshow.reddit.com. Find the feedback thread for episode 100 and let us know. I'd specifically like to hear your experiences with the performance aspect. How has that been?

Anybody in the mumble room want to chime in? Has anybody tried 17.2 that has opinions before we hip-scot jump around? Nope. Go on once. I looked at 17.2 for accessibility, but that's just me, though. Okay. I'd love to hear about that. So in 2.6, they started work on accessibility for Cinnamon.

So that's what this 17.2 has, Cinnamon version 2.6 and above. But it's still not there yet. It works in terms of just kind of navigating, getting around. Nemo's not sort of accessible, but there are some things that don't work as well some of the keyboard functionality when you want to assign keyboards like keyboard shortcuts and things those don't work with Orca

the panel is sort of accessible but there needs to be some work done but the start is there so hopefully the ball will keep rolling How does it compare to say Unity or GNOME or KDE? So KDE is not accessible as of right now. Apparently there's some move for that to happen.

Unity is sort of accessible, but the functionality is not really there for Orca users. But in terms of GNOME or MATE, GNOME and MATE are the most accessible out of the box for Orca users. Cool. That is really good to hear that perspective because that's obviously something that's very hard for us to test, so I really do

appreciate you mentioning that. And also, Greater in the chatroom points out that if you're not a SystemD fan, Mint 17.2 is a bastion of non- SystemD-ness for you, which also probably explains why it's taking a little while to boot up. It might have to do with

the hard drive encryption. Oh, you have it encrypted? Yeah, I've got the hard drive encrypted and the home folder encrypted. That definitely could take a bit of a hit. Yeah, for sure. For boot up time, but I don't think that would affect after I boot it up. It might, but yeah, I don't know. It might still. Just even though it has the key, it still might but I don't think that would affect after I boot it up. It might, but yeah, I don't know.

It might still. Just even though it has the key, it still might. I don't know. That's a good question. I'd be curious to see what it would be like with or with it off. So how was that setting that up? Pretty easy? Yeah, during the install process, it was just tick a box. Enter your master password? Yeah. Cool. And were you able to set

one master password for all of them? Or was it different passwords for your home and a different password for all of them or was it different passwords for like your home and a different password for your root? I set a different password for my home and a different password for the cool that's really neat well very nice alright well thank you for doing that and thank you for coming in from Portland to give us that review in studio too that was

really awesome and jump back in and let us know how it goes are you going to keep it installed or are you switching to something else? I'm going back to okay alright well thank you for trying it for a little bit yeah I know how you feel Are you going to keep it installed or are you switching to something else? I'm going back to Arch. Okay. All right. Well, thank you for trying it for a little bit. Yeah, I know how you feel too.

All right. Well, then I'll take a moment and I'll thank our next sponsor right here on the Linux Unplugged program. Of course, that's our friends over at Ting. Go to linux.ting.com, linux.ting.com to get our special $25 discount off your first Ting device or $25 in service credit if you have a Ting compatible device. And you just might because Ting has a GSM network and a CDMA network. Now, here's what I love about Ting. You only pay them for what you use. This is phenomenal. If you've got like a device

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big, big thank you to Ting for sponsoring this here. Boy, they've been here almost since the very first... I big, big thank you to Ting for sponsoring this here. Boy, they've been here almost since the very first. I don't know if they're here for the first episode. Gosh, because I just kind of launched it. I got to spur them on. I was like, I'm doing a show. But they were pretty much right after I decided I'm sticking to the show.

I was like, hey, hey, Kyra. And Kyra's all in. Kyra over at Ting was all in. And you can get all into linux.ting.com. Support the show and only pay for what you use. That's right. Go to linux.ting.com. All right. So now we are sort of winding down towards the end of episode 100. We had Romeo join us just a moment ago. Oh, hold on. Don't peek. Don't peek. Of course, Wes joined us a minute ago. And now Nick, right? That's right.

Nick is sitting down to join us. Nick, welcome to Linux Unplugged. Thank you for having me. Now, Nick, how was the drive up, first of all? I should start with that. Where do you come from? I'm actually coming from Bremerton, so it was a little bit of a drive. Yeah, I know. It feels like it's pretty far north when you're actually making the trip, huh?

Like, when you look at it, it's like, that's not that bad. But yeah, then you have to make the trip out there. So, Nick, I remember we were talking before we started. You just started kind of looking and moving into the technology field. And so you're not in your day job isn't necessarily working with technology. So why the hell are you using Linux? Well, I've always kind of been interested. Ever since high school, I've been playing with Ubuntu, really.

Oh, okay. And then I kind of got into a little deeper into it. Just stuck with it? Yeah, just kind of stuck with it. That's cool. So about six months ago, just kind of stuck with it. That's cool. About six months ago, I completely got rid of Windows. So how is it going to school, taking technology courses?

Do they accommodate the fact that you're a Linux user? Or when they give you courseware and instructions, do they just assume you're on a Mac or you're on Windows? Yeah, pretty much just have to figure everything out myself. It's almost all Windows and a little bit of Mac here and there. Do you end up having to run a VM? Like, is there just no way around it sometimes? There was one class I had to run a VM for, just for Microsoft Office. I had to do some stuff with a newer version of PowerPoint, but that was it. Yeah. And now maybe Office Online would help a little bit, I suppose. You know, I feel like, the reason why I was kind of thinking about this is I was looking at this,

we haven't talked about it yet. Well, we kind of talked about it when it first came out. But there's this Ubuntu-powered Intel compute stick. For $110, it's an x86 computer. It's going to ship with a 64-bit version of Ubuntu 14.04 LTS, 1.3 gigahertz quad-core x86, 1 gigabyte of RAM, and 8 gigabytes of storage. And it just plugs into the HDMI port. $110 for this. And this is going to run any x86 compatible application i don't i think for like schools and and low and libraries and and low budget like you know we need a lot of computers that can do basic computing

this seems like such a no-brainer because you could get a hundred dollar uh uh flat screen you know a computer monitor, plug this into the HDMI port, and you've got a full computer set up for $250 or something. Yeah, that'd be perfect for that whole situation. I'm actually really surprised that more schools and stuff aren't using open-source software in Linux. Well, what am I missing about these Compute Sticks? Because I think there's some skepticism in the Mumble Room about them, right?

I think before we started, there was... Well, one thing is they're very easily stealable if they're just shoved in the true monitor yeah i guess so yeah but boy laptops and tablets are also pretty easily stealable but they still have them in schools and whatnot but yeah the ubuntu ones also only have i believe it was either a single gig or two gigs of ram where the windows one has double that. Ah, Wimpy, is that what you mean by it being a little more gimped? Yeah, so way back when,

Popey was reading a more optimistic brand of news than me and was saying that the Windows and Ubuntu version were going to be the same, but sadly we find ourselves in the usual position where the Ubuntu version, yes, it's a bit cheaper, which is great, but it's got 1GB of RAM and 8GB of storage versus the 2GB of RAM and 32GB of storage on the Windows version. So that's disappointing, but I guess this is Microsoft's deep pockets subsidizing the hardware. Is it that? Is it that or is it Intel wanted to ship it for a cheaper price, but Microsoft couldn't agree on that because of the amount of RAM that Windows takes? Well, in the netbook era, Microsoft did their damnedest, didn't they,

to make sure that, you know, these devices shipped in such a fashion that they weren't ideal. And they're bending over backwards for the Raspberry Pi B or or Raspberry 2, or Raspberry Pi 2, whatever it is. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know that they're bending over backwards. I think that's lip service they're paying to the Raspberry Pi 2. If you've actually looked at what's involved in getting Windows 10 running on a Raspberry Pi 2,

it's, well... It's a joke. And also, it's command line only, too, right? Well, it's not so much that. It's the joke. Right? Well, and also it's command line only too, right? Well, it's not so much that. It's the, you know, you must have Windows 10 preview installed in order to flash the device. Oh, oh. Yeah, so there's a hot, and you must have a Microsoft Connect account.

You must have a Microsoft online account. And there's also, and you must fill out every survey on the microsoft connect site before you get access to the raspberry pi to preview image download so there's a lot of a lot of stuff you have to do and a lot of um information you have to give away to get access to this so i do think those those sticks are useful for the low-end stuff like so even yeah okay it ships with ubuntu but i can see a lot of people wanting to wipe that off and put something like a media center stuff and use a bluetooth remote or uh even an infrared remote or something or a bluetooth keyboard and use it as a media playback device it's like a

it's like a chromecast but completely open you know so you know the the thing the things that annoy me about chromecast is i can't easily play local media without hacking the thing i can't tell it to use dns servers other than google so if i wanted to bypass like region locks and stuff that's hard whereas with this device okay it's a bit bigger it takes a bit more power and it's um you know it's it's a little bit uglier than than a chromecast and it's a do-it-yourself thing. But I would expect very soon there will be people making x86 images

for that kind of device. It's got Kodi and all the other things. And wasn't Firefox working on a casting stick? Yeah, right. Maybe instead of building the hardware, they could just release the software and people could flash themselves. But, Wimby, you warn us,

maybe we are not going to want to replace the Ubuntu OS on the stick. What do you mean? Not just yet. So the wireless device in these Intel Compute Sticks isn't supported in the mainline kernel just yet. Oh, jeez. So if you're comfortable with patching your own kernel with the current out-of-tree drivers drivers then that's fine so you know this comes with all the hard work having been done for you but if you want to run cody on it or arch or something else then for the time being at least you're going to need to roll your own kernel

to support it um so maybe in a couple of months that won't be an issue but just you know be be fair warned that um changing distros is not going to be trivial at the moment okay but this is way easier than than using an arm device like the mythical mozilla thing that still hasn't arrived and we get no updates right being x86 you mean kind of yeah the matchstick that's what it was the matchstick thank you chair thank you yeah yeah i backed that i'm still waiting as well. I think I did too. Yes, I did back it. Whilst I agree with Popey. That is not from Mozilla themselves.

Just a heads up. Yeah, no, it's not. It's a project built on top of their platform. Thank you for the clarification. But whilst I agree with Popey that, you know, x86 devices are far more flexible, versatile. Just be fair warned that if you get one of these, just be patient before you start wanting to experiment

with other distributions. Now, maybe we'll see something better from Lenovo, right there, Warhead? We might be seeing something from them that might be easier for us to use. Yeah, they're basically redoing the same thing, branding it their way. However, with my connections there, we might be to get linux running on it fast nice that would be cool that

would be good and there's gonna run for 130 bucks it says 2.4 gigahertz wi-fi uh hdmi compatible i'm not seeing anything on the where's the probably just the same specs huh it's probably right down to the letter and then it's got the one branding in the west inside, huh? It's probably right down to the letter. And then it's got the one with branding and the West inside it. Yeah, it's got the Atom processor. It's got 32 gigabytes of storage, so it has a little bit more storage. This one will be shipping with Windows 8. Oh boy, what a winner that is going to be. Who would want that?

I've seen some online that are built around the Core M, like in the MacBook. And I can't remember the price point for those, but I've seen them out there. Wimpy, before we wrap up, you have a little bit of news to share with us. You are wheeling and dealing these days, my friend. Not to stand still, you have another hardware partnership to talk about.

Tell me about it. We do. So we have have another hardware partnership to talk about. Tell me about it. We do. So we have our second hardware partnership with an organization called LibreTrend, who are based in Portugal. And they make the LibreBox, which is really about supporting free software. So it supports Linux without um drivers that require blobs or anything like that so it's quite an interesting initiative because um the guy behind it has um hand-picked all of the components has designed his own motherboard has found a fabricator in

china that actually makes his motherboard for him wow but then he actually manufactures the uh the devices in portugal uh including you know the alloy casing is all bespoke build so this isn't an odm device that he's putting a badge on the whole thing is uh entirely uh bespoke and hand designed and uh yeah yeah so you know if you're a BSD user this is also a good choice because all of the hardware works and one of his aspirations was to actually get this all working with a core boot but that turns out it's quite a long and expensive process to remove a proprietary BIOS. So at the moment, the LibreBox is using a traditional BIOS, although it doesn't have UEFI.

And in time, he's working on actually replacing that with Core Boot. So the last vestiges, you know, the freedom hating can be removed. And he has a couple of revisions of this device in the works as well. So in the not-too-distant future, there'll be another device announced. And he's also working on something for 2016, which I can't say anything about, but I'm super excited about that. Sounds like it's going to be a fruitful partnership down the road long term we can well i hope so i mean it's it's nice that these organizations have approached us and said you know we'd like to ship your operating system yeah um that's really satisfying and it's great for me because it means this this particular device although they're based

in portugal they ship worldwide so anyone can order these. And up until September the 13th, there's free global shipping as well. So if you order one now, there won't be any costs. And there was some criticism when the device was first released about the cost. So he's listened to that. He watched what was going on on Reddit until our Linux went private.

And he's actually reduced the price of the device within a few days, having watched people's feedback. So they're good eggs, and they're doing the right stuff. That's awesome. And yeah, I'm looking forward to getting one of these. I'm going to use

one of these as a little Kodi box in the front room. Perfect. You know, that's sort of this I think that's probably a perfect ending point right there because that's also been one of my favorite things over the hundred episodes is watching you guys work on that project. Watch

Ubuntu Mate just sort of really, I don't know how else to describe it, blow up, blossom, explode into like from going from something you guys started to really a well-known full flavor of Ubuntu now with several or a couple of hardware partnerships and contributing to open source projects on a routine basis. I mean, it's a pretty impressive journey. I don't even remember where in about the show's history we started talking about it, but it's

been going on for a while now. And that's sprinkled throughout the history of the show too now. So thank you, Wimpy, for chatting and sharing with us as you've gone along on that. That's really cool. Oh, well, you're welcome. It's all Popey's fault. We can blame Popey. Blame Popey.

And it started a year ago, give or take a few days. Wow, heck of a year. That's when I went around to Popey's house, and he got me started on this crazy idea. All right. So that's been a heck of a year then. That went fast. Wow. Yeah, it really did.

Yeah. And it's kind of surprising because I made this for my mom, really. My mom and my dad and my wife and my father-in-law. And now I've got hundreds of friends and acquaintances I've made online that are using it.

So it's quite satisfying. So if people want to find out more about that hardware, go to ubuntu-mate.org and I will link it in the show notes as well because that is a pretty, pretty cool deal. Congratulations. So that's two now. That's two now, right?

Two different hardware partnerships. Probably more coming, I bet. Yeah, yeah. And the original partners, Entroware. Yeah. Still around. Their Apollo device is the same as the Librem 13. Right.

So I've got one of those. How do you like it? Do you want to know what the Librem? Yeah, it's great. Although I'm working on kernel drivers for the trackpad at the moment. Oh, hold on. Because that's not properly supported. I think that'll be a good post-show topic.

Stay right there. Let's talk about that. All right. Thank you, everybody, for tuning in. If you've been here for 100 episodes episodes thank you for listening to all 100 episodes join us next week we'll be here go to jupiterbroadcasting.com

slash calendar to get our time go to linuxactionshow.reddit.com to leave feedback and we'll see you right back here next week so the show their show thanks you guys that was a lot of fun thank you thank you nick There's show, there's show. Thanks, you guys.

That was a lot of fun. Thank you. Thank you, Nick. You're welcome. So, Wimpy, tell me, how is this Librem-like laptop? Yeah, in the main, it's very nice. So, Entreware have been selling the Apollo for about three months now. And part of the agreement I've got with them, they sent me some hardware.

So they've sent me two of the laptops to evaluate. And the Apollo, which is the Librem 13 I've now learned, that's for me to keep. And that's now my daily machine that I use. So it's a full metal aluminium case uh my traditional machines are rather clunky and old you know thinkpads with uh traditional quality thinkpad keyboards which i never thought i would be able to um give up and the uh the apollo's got a chiclet keyboard, which I thought I was going to hate.

And I've actually realized that actually that's a really good keyboard. I really like the keyboard. I'm very happy with that. I think Noah's going to get one. Everything I'm telling you now... Okay, that's all good stuff. Right.

Okay, so yeah, everything that I'm telling you could directly translate to the Librem 13 because in my contact with Entroware Okay, so yeah, everything that I'm telling you directly translates to the Librem 13, because in my contact with Entroware and then consequently the ODM and some of the component manufacturers, I've learned that what I have is the Librem 13. Okay. It's the same device. The one difference being is that Entroware ship theirs with a traditional BIOS, whereas Librem are hoping to use core boot

but in terms of the specs and the case and all of the other features it's uh it's the same but the the issue is this it's got a really nice uh large trackpad but uh the kernel currently detects that as a ps2 mouse so consequently there's no uh there's no gesture gesture recognition oh no and what i've and what i've also learned and brace yourself because you've backed the libram 15 haven't you the libram 15 has the same trackpad in it made by BYD. So I've contacted the component manufacturer, BYD, to try and get the specs, and I got a general PDF that isn't all that much help. There's a couple of people I've found on various mailing lists that have had a go at reverse engineering the packet protocol for the USB device

to try and enable the full gesture support, and that's quite hard going. I've made some progress, but I don't know enough about kernel development and in particular the input stack, so I'm kind of struggling with that. But what this means is if you actually look at the product updates for the Librem 15 in one of those they actually acknowledge that the trackpad only

works as a PS2 device which means you've got you know you've got basic you know trackpad movement you know move your finger around and the cursor follows you and you've got um edge scrolling that works um but there's no two finger scrolling or gestures which means that when you need to right click and drag something that's a bit awkward um so yeah yeah maybe somebody needs to hold you know the candle to uh purism's toes and just find out um what their uh what their plan is regarding trackpad support. Actually, I had a similar mouse on my Asus laptop, and when I installed the new version of Fedora, Fedora 22,

it actually worked right out of the box, so whatever they're doing. Yeah, they have the new lib input library. Doesn't Fedora 22 have a new... It does, yeah. It does work better for lib news. Everything. In fact, I think Fedora are actually going to make that mandatory in the next release. So if projects aren't using lib input, they're going to struggle because their libraries are going away.