LINUX Unplugged - Episode 106: Connecting the Docks | LUP 106

Episode Date: August 19, 2015

Live from the floor of LinuxCon 2015 we capture Bruce Schneier’s take on hacking attribution, how HP enthusiastically supports Linux internally & our impressions of the big convention.Plus how Docker is going big this year & which type of Linux event is right for you.

So we kind of got this all thrown together. We weren't quite sure where we were going to get a spot, and we weren't quite sure what kind of connectivity we would have. But they do have these connectivity stations with power and USB, and they're like these tables, and they've built these boxes on top with plugs, four plugs on each side. And so we kind of just came over and commandeered one. We did.

And took it over, and now that's where we're broadcasting from. I actually predicted that as we were walking in. I said, you know, and he goes, how are we going to make sure we get that spot? And I said, well, if we just start setting down microphones and mixers and like, excuse me, sorry, everyone will just kind of move. And sure enough, they moved. It was great.

This is Linux Unplugged, episode 106, for 18th, 2015. Welcome to Linux Unplugged, your weekly Linux talk show that's live from LinuxCon 2015 in Seattle, Washington. My name is Chris. And my name is Noah. Hey, Noah, are you ready for an exciting show today? Jeez, am I ever. It's only taken us two hours to get here, three hours to get here. It's exciting for us because we're live on the floor, and that's always, especially when you get here and you don't know where you're going to be live from. It's a bit challenging, but not only are we here, but we took the con experience up to the next level because we're also here with our mumble room. Time-appropriate greetings, mumble room.

Hello. Hello, pip. Hello. Hello. Hello, guys. I'm glad our virtual lug could be here. You know, the Seattle Greater Linux Users

group is upstairs. We should talk to them at some point. Yeah, that'd be really cool. Their lug is here. And, you know, it kind of got me thinking, like, we could do, like,

we could bring the Mumble Room with us to, like, after-show parties and just, like, bring them on a phone. Oh, yeah. Would that be any fun? Oh, that would be a heck of fun, yeah. We could bring the Mumble Room with us to after-show parties and just bring them on a phone. Oh, yeah. Would that be any fun? Oh, that would be a heck of fun, yeah. Maybe if we do that. I've got the Mumble client installed on my phone.

Sure. Coming up on today's episode of Linux Unplugged, we have a couple of things from the floor we're going to play. Bruce Schneier, renowned security expert, gave a keynote talk this morning, and he had some interesting points he wanted to make. You. Me? You managed to finally get somebody from HP to go on record and talk about some of the behind-the-scenes stuff that they have not shared publicly that they're doing on Linux. I did.

I've been sitting on that information for over a year, and it was driving me nuts. Yeah. Absolutely nuts. Because they would not confirm it publicly. It's like this big thing, this big, huge thing inside of HP that everyone's using Linux, and they wouldn't talk about it on camera. And I harassed the heck out of them last year, and I didn't get anywhere. And then this year, a person found a guy who found a guy who knew a guy who knew a guy

that was able to talk on camera about it. And so we got it. So LinuxCon Seattle is about three floors of goodness. There's your basic floor. Then you've got your second floor where, to be honest with you guys, we thought was the main floor when we first got here. And we'll get to that in just a second. And then there's a third floor where people have sponsored and some other showcases are up there. And it's right here in Seattle on 6th, and I think it's Pike.

It's at the Sheraton Hotel. And it's a really, really, really nice location, because if you get a little burnt out and you want to go get some fresh air, you can just go for a walk. And there's tons of nice places here in Seattle to go to, and so we've taken advantage of that. We'll probably tell you a little bit more about that later on in the show today.

But I wanted to tell them about our first impressions when we walked into LinuxCon. It's a little embarrassing, but I'm willing to admit it. Kind of, but I don't think that was really our fault. I think that's more of a layout issue. Yeah, you think so? Yeah.

So we got in, and the first thing you find is the registration desk, and that's where you get your badge and your shirt and your swag bag and stuff like that. So we go over there and had a nice, lovely conversation with the lady, who, by the way, told me to walk through a wall. And she sends us upstairs. Because you register at one booth, and then they send you up to another floor, which there's another registration booth, where you hand a ticket from the first registration booth to get the rest of the stuff that you thought you were going to get at the one that you

went to to begin with. Right. So after we got through the two registration booths, one to register and one to get the stuff that I should have got the first one, then we walk out, like right out of that second registration area and we see what appears to be the show hall and uh there are like nine booths and chris looks at me and goes well is this all there is and i remember last year the expo hall was actually so small that they actually put it inside of the keynote room and it was just there was the

keynotes and then at the back wall along that back wall where the where the booth room, and it was just, there was the keynotes, and then at the back wall, along that back wall, were the booths. That was it. You missed a key part of our trip, too, because our first stop was actually the media room. That's where our first, we didn't actually go to the expo floor first. We went to the media room. Oh, that's right, to drop stuff off. And we bumped into a friend of ours, and he said, did you guys see how small the floor is?

And I said, what? And he's like, did you see how small the floor is? It's unbelievable. And that is why when we got there, we thought, oh, this must be it. This must be the floor is. And I said, what? And he's like, did you see how small the floor is? It's unbelievable. And that is why when we got there, we thought, oh, this must be it. This must be the floor.

And the other thing that was sort of fascinating about it is when we got there, we realized every single one of these booths was basically a deviation on itself.

Like, they were all the same product, just different makers. Like, it was all container management software. And we were like, oh, wow, this is it? And so then, like, I was a little bummed. I'm like, I'm not sure who we're going to talk to. It was all container management software. And we were like, oh, wow, this is it? And so then I was a little bummed.

I'm like, I'm not sure who we're going to talk to. ContainerCon 2015, man. Yeah. And it really, you know what? And that first impression does kind of stick. It really is ContainerCon 2015. Docker, and we're going to talk about that more in a moment, but this is ContainerCon.

But however, it turns out when you go up to the third floor, you get your more traditional vendors. Like here we've got Cloud Foundry and Cisco and Citrix and Canonical and Docker. And DigitalOcean is here. GitHub is here. And Google is here. Of course, the LinuxFest Northwest guys are here. And Seuss is here.

And Stack Exchange is here. And Samsung and SanDisk. And a couple other well-known folks you probably know. Amazon Web Services is here. Atlassian is here. And a couple that we're going to play some interviews for you are from here too. So once we got up to the third floor, it was actually, it seems like a pretty happening event, and the sessions are really intense.

A lot of sessions this time all about containers. Not all containers, but a lot of sessions about running software in container, managing applications in containers, putting your desktop applications in containers. Like, it's all about the different specs, the app spec, and the different initiatives. Maybe that's why they've codenamed it ContainerCon. Yeah, yeah, it's definitely the theme here. So, yeah.

I got a couple of clips I want to play, a couple of interviews I want to get into. And we had a few people in the chat room that asked us to kind of compare the difference between LinuxCon and LinuxFest. So I want to do that in a little bit as well and kind of give you our general impressions. So before we get to the first interview, I do have a bit of an outtake I could play. Do you want me to play our first outtake?

Sure. This is Chris and Noah entering the LinuxCon. And I was going to record, you know, build this beautiful theater of the mind for you guys. So we'd really be able to illustrate what it's like to get here, but Noah was very, very enthusiastic about creating that theater of the mind, and he might have gone a little overboard

with painting the picture. Entering LinuxFest. Okay, here we go, Noah. LinuxCon 2015. Let's walk through the door. Inside. Head to the escalator. Inside. Nice. Head to the escalator. Okay.

A little bit of stairway. All right, we'll step on here. You're so bad. I'm trying to give them a story. What's happening? You're too obvious. What's happening right now? You don't know. You don't know.

You just paint the scene with the sound. Paint the scene. There's the sound. So we got here, and we do have a couple interviews to play. The first thing we got to work was we knew we had to get some stuff for Linux Unplugged because we had a live broadcast, and that was our first drop-dead thing.

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It is a really good experience. And it's great for testing and production. We use it for all of the above, and it is our go-to Linux deployment platform in the cloud. And if you use Docker, if you use CoreOS, if you're using FreeBSD, if you're using CentOS, Ubuntu, Debian, you name it,

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DigitalOcean for sponsoring Linux Unplugged. Alright, Mr. Colonel, Linux over there. What do you say we jump into a couple of our interviews that we got here, and then we'll kind of chat about it a little bit? Man, would I like to do that. And I wanted to start with the Core Infrastructure Project's announcement this morning.

They had a keynote this morning, and they covered a lot of things. But one of the initiatives that keeps getting better and better is in the wake of Heartbleed and Shellshock, we saw the Linux Foundation, along with a bunch of other stakeholders in the industry, come together and launch the Core Infrastructure Initiative. And the Core Infrastructure Initiative project has been giving out money. They just announced they're going to be paying for the main developer of NTP, Father Time is what people call him. And he's been working on NTP, just making nothing but pennies. And now they just announced they're going to support him, which is great.

Hopefully, it'll help with some of these NTP reflection attacks. All the different projects they're investing in have been extremely important. But there's been one thing that we really haven't been able to kind of agree upon industry-wide. And I think we could all agree that if we don't come up with a common set of agreements and standards, governments will. And so the core initiative project is setting out to create an open source best practices program that's going to be hosted up on GitHub, and this clip tells us a little bit about it. Today what we're doing is announcing essentially an open source project, which will be rolled out later this year, but we wanted to get community feedback on a best

practice program that essentially allows open source projects to meet a set of criteria, whether it's having a security mailing list, peer checking of code, doing static analysis on your code, doing threat modeling on your code, to essentially indicate that you care about security and that it's important to your project. People who receive that badge will be able to display it on their project site or in GitHub and indicate that they have met that criteria. What we really want is all of your feedback, and we don't want it in the form of a bunch of comments. We would love it in the form of GitHub poll requests.

So we are doing this. This goes live today. We're actually announcing this later on this afternoon at a media-exclusive luncheon on the Core Infrastructure Initiative. So you're all getting a sneak preview of this today. Now, I think this is a fascinating idea. So it's sort of a voluntary program submission, and you get a certified, you meet the best practices. And I've been talking about this on and off with Alan on TechSnap. But how do we solve this problem where, as a business, you want to

use open source in your enterprise, but you don't know if it meets a certain, I don't know if quality standards is the right word, but security standards? You want it to meet a standard, whatever standard that is. And actually, that makes a lot of sense, right? Because we do that in basically every other field. Aviation, anyone can make something, but they rate it to be used in aviation. Or like, for example, Oracle, right? Yeah.

They go out and get their software Better Business Bureau certified for certain amounts of software to be free of certain amount of flaws, which is kind of a total joke. But there are industry certifications now, and this is one that I think what's cool about this is it's going to be opened up to the general public. And I don't know if anybody in the Mub Room has any thoughts on a program like this or maybe any potential downsides, but since it seems volunteer-based to me, it seems like a pretty good approach to this. And I like that it's being run by the Core Infrastructure Initiative because they seem to have their priorities

pretty well aligned. Anybody in the Mumbler Room have any thoughts on this? Going once? Twice? No takers. Okay. All right, well, then we'll move on. I thought it was a good move. I think I really like what the Core Infrastructure Initiative is doing in the wake of Shellshock and things like that.

I'm very, very happy about that. All right, Mr. Noah, then I'm ready for my next clip here. And this one was kind of interesting. It was from Bruce Schneier. It was from Bruce Schneier, and he was talking about attributions of cyber attacks and why attribution is so hard in kind of using the Sony attack in sort of the lens to look through this problem. And if you recall, Sony was using Linux and Apache web servers and things like that. So it's kind of relevant to us because a lot of times Linux is in the server infrastructure. So if there's a problem there, it very much falls on the Linux system administrator to manage that.

So Bruce Schneier, he was connected in via Google Hangouts this morning for the keynote. There's a little bit of audio glitchiness because his computer had bad audio, but the content is super critical and important, especially with what's going on these days in cybersecurity. So here's Bruce Schneier talking about how attribution is difficult. The other big issue, and I think the biggest issue that Sony brought out, is that attribution is difficult. I mean, compare two attacks. In 2006, Israel attacked a Syrian nuclear power plant. They did it with planes, planes and bombs. And the recipient of the attack, Syria, could look up in the sky,

the recipient of the attack, Syria, could look up in the sky, see the planes, see the flags painted on their tails, and know where the attack came from. 2010, U.S. and Israel attacked an Iranian nuclear power plant. We did it with a cyber weapon, with Stuxnet. The difference is that there was no way for Iran to attribute the attack. Actually, Iran didn't seem to have known it was an attack until either the press outed it or possibly Israel or U.S. called Iran on some diplomatic channel and told them. It's very difficult to attribute attacks on the Internet. We know this is true. Packets don't come with return addresses.

And it's easy to false flag. It's easy to pretend your attack comes from somewhere else. My belief is that a lot of attacks from the Western countries go through China simply because everyone knows a lot of attacks go through China. And that's a perfect way to hide where you're from. I actually was really glad he made that point. It's very possible that attacks from western countries

are just being routed through China because a lot of times the narrative is just a Chinese attack. One of the things that jumped out at me about that talk, and he's talking about security, is one of the main things that the vendors here are showcasing is how to patch your applications in containers.

Like, people are, like, everybody has a different solution for that. Right. How to manage container security. Yep. How to update applications in containers. How to know when the applications in the containers have gone behind. How to know when the application quits working. Yep.

All of that is, like, I would say, and maybe, do you agree that, like, it seems to be, like, the number one product that's being talked about here, the number one problem? Well, so I think the container technologies themselves, we've built communities and there's already the standards exist for that, right? And so what's left, where the market is, where there's left to make a business or money is in products managing those things. to make a business or money is in products managing those things. Because like we were talking about on the drive, is you're not going to, nobody is going to manage that stuff from the command line, right? Even if it's possible. So you need some sort of a solution, especially if you're doing it at a scale.

Yeah, and the other thing is containers kind of encourage you to have a lot of them. Because not only is your density higher versus virtualization, so on a server that could have 10 virtual machines, maybe you can now have 20 containers because you don't have the emulation overhead. But you also are kind of encouraged to do a container per application. So you put your mail server in a container and your web server in a container and your group collaboration thing in it. All these different things go in containers. All of a sudden, you have a dozen containers for one small office.

And so one of the things that they're finding and talking about here is that container proliferation is just exploding. And then even small shops have all of these containers they have to manage. And then the other thing they want to do is move them between services depending on which is more cost effective. So Schneier talking about attribution and tracking all of this and security patches and updates is kind of relevant. So that is a problem they're trying to solve here. relevant so that is a problem they're trying to solve here uh but i actually really really liked his point um about why we are seeing so much attribution to china and russia these days because whenever you hear about a cyber attack it's iran china north korea or russia every single time it's never anybody else it's never canada it's never mexico yeah sometimes it's the syrian

electronic army but not so often it's usually one of those guys and he tells us why and um it was genius like what i love about schneier is like for the first five five ten minutes of his talk i was like oh this is no good why is this at linux con why is he saying this stuff and then the second half of his talk was all like he took what he'd set up and kind of re-looked at it in another lens and and he just he's connected a few dots for me that I've not quite, like, why are we just so publicly slamming these massively powerful nations and saying, you're hacking us with the OPM

breach, or whatever it might be. It's, you know, it's China. Why are we doing this? Well, he kind of explains why, and I thought it was fascinating. Then after that, we have the HP interview, which they also were here talking about the machine, so that was interesting, too. But before we get to that, I'll tell you about Linux Academy, okay have the HP interview, which they also were here talking about the machine. So that was interesting, too. But before we get to that, I'll tell you about Linux Academy, okay?

Because we were chatting with some folks in the hallway about different educational resources. And I think Linux Academy has something unique that the other guys don't have. And I tell you, it comes up all the time, especially with containers, is this technology is a moving target. You know, app spec is relatively new. Not much of the courseware out there really reflects that fact. In fact, pretty much almost none of them do. The difference with Linux Academy is those enthusiasts there at Linux Academy are following this stuff because they want to, right?

They're following this stuff because that's what they're passionate about. And then they got together with educators and developers, and they created the Linux Academy education platform. You go there, you figure out what you want to learn, they tell you how long it's going to take. You choose from seven plus Linuxux distributions they automatically spin up the virtual machines to match the distribution you choose from and the courseware adjust they've just added new courses as well because they're adding new content constantly and they have team accounts

as well so if a few people want to go in and learn something you can that's a good way to motivate each other they have an active community stacked full of jupiter broadcasting members and i encourage you to go there and look at the different programs. Get started by going to linuxacademy.com slash unplugged. That'll give you our 33% discount. And then when you're there, log in. Look how long it's going to take you to learn Python or Ruby or Apache or backing up your machine using TAR, whatever kind of gap you have in your knowledge set that you kind of want to fill in.

Linux Academy has courses on it. They also have these nuggets. You can find them, and you go there, like, you know, two minutes to 60 minutes long. They just deep dive right into exactly a course that you want to learn about, which is really kind of nice. Because I've been able to use their time availability planner when I'm kind of, like, getting on more of a routine. And then when it comes time to, like, just really focus in on work, and I don't really have time to get in something deep, I can still do a nugget from time to time. You know, my certification's coming up at the end of this year for Red Hat. Yeah.

And so I was originally, my last certification was in RHEL 6, and now I'll be doing RHEL 7. And I have gotten the practical things nailed down so that I can start rolling out, because we want to be using the, you know, RHEL is, I don't want to say behind, but as stable as it is. So when you go to, if you're not using the latest stable version, you know, it's really stable. Yeah, yeah. So I have nailed out the practical things, but what I haven't quite got down

is all the nuances that they're going to ask me in the test. Right? And I don't have time, as you might imagine, to take off a week to go do all of my recertification stuff. But I need to learn all the stuff that they're going to ask me found out Linux Academy actually has a course on that

and I use them to learn the practical things now I'm going to go back and I'm going to actually retake the course this time I'm going to go all the way through

and learn all of the differences between RHEL 6 and RHEL 7 that's only possible because I can do that from my laptop while I'm here in Seattle because everything always takes longer

than they think it's going to so that'll be great. That's nice. LinuxAcademy.com slash unplugged. Go get the Linux Unplugged discount and support this show and just take your skill set up a notch. Linux Academy. Thanks, Linux Academy, for sponsoring the Unplugged program.

You guys rock. Okay, let's play this Schneier clip here. This Schneier clip is our last one from Bruce, although I might go through his talk and see if there's any more we want to pull out. But I wanted to grab these ones because I thought these were short enough but extremely poignant and just for anybody involved in interest in technology, very relevant. So here's Bruce Schneier on why we're seeing so much attribution these days, basically why we're seeing the blame game from different nations.

And there's an arms race here, which I think is important to think about. This arms race between attributing attacks and hiding the origins of attacks, attribution versus deception. And the U.S. is in a singularly powerful position here. The NSA surveils much of the Internet for a bunch of reasons, right? They have a bigger budget than everyone else, actually, than everyone else combined. And the way the Internet is routed, a lot of traffic goes through the United States. A big article on the 15th last week on how AT&T is doing quite a lot of eavesdropping for the NSA, both within the United States and in their network points all around the world.

2012, the U.S. Secretaryed a defense on Leon Panetta. He said publicly, he's talking publicly about attribution, and I'm going to read a quote of his, that the U.S. has made significant advances in identifying the origins of cyber attacks. That's an interesting statement, and we actually don't know what that means. We don't know if the NSA has some fundamental technological advance in identifying packets.

Probably not. Or that their espionage is so good that they're monitoring the planning process. I mean, we don't know what sort of secret evidence the NSA had. I mean, did they have recorded phone calls from North Korea discussing the plan? In my fantasies, I think they have the document of King John Un's signature on the approval to go through with this. We actually don't know what. But it's interesting that attribution leads to deterrence. In the past couple of years, the United States has been more forthcoming in identifying who attack them.

They've in several cases identified North Korea. Last year, we indicted five North Korean government officials in absentia for hacking. We've attributed Russia. Now, oddly, in the OPM attack, there was one statement by Clapper where he said it was China, and then everyone kind of backed off, and there's no official attribution. But by and large, we're seeing more attribution. I think that's because it's in the U.S.''s best interests to signal that they can attribute. To say to the world that if you try this we will know it's you. And there is deterrence here. Actually I think that leads to over attribution in

some cases. But the thing about attribution in cyberspace is that providing evidence is tricky. Initially, the United States fingered North Korea, but provided very minimal evidence. And there's broad mistrust in the security community. So there was a lot of people, myself included, who just didn't believe them. And if you think about it, there are several types of attribution. There's the lowest, where I know you did it. There's a little harder, I know you did it and it can prove to you I know you did it. And then the hardest of all, I know you did it and it can prove to the world I know you did it. The United States succeeded at one, possibly we succeeded at two, but we failed at number three.

Attribution based on secret evidence is entrusted. We all remember Iraq and weapons of mass destruction. And this problem only becomes worse as more of our attribution relies on secret evidence. We're going to announce who attacked. We're going to expect the world to support us in retaliatory action, and yet we won't be able to prove who did it. And this is going to be complicated. Complicated indeed.

So sorry about the little crack leave the audio there, but that was just his feed coming into the con today. It wasn't anything we could do about that in the recording. But I thought it was really interesting. He says, essentially, one of the reasons we're doing attribution is because it kind of defers people from doing it for their taxes because they know we'll call them out. It's kind of interesting.

Maybe that is why we call out China. You can tell he's from the Internet. Why is that? That's the recourse that you have on the Internet, right? It's calling people out on things. Yeah, trolling, I guess. So Schneier went on for a little bit longer and talked more about the problem. And I'll see if there's any more clips you want to pull out of that.

No, I want to talk a little bit about the differences between LinuxCon and a LinuxFest. Yeah. And I think, you know, trying to keep in mind, there's two different audiences for each. Very much so. Do you want to describe what you think? So, I tell you what, you know, maybe you want to take the, maybe you can take one and I'll take the other. So, I'll come at it from the AltaSpeed perspective.

So, I have attended LinuxCons for many, many years. I've probably been going on since 2009. I've been there numerous times. And only in the past year I have come from the eyes of the community member that's interested in the projects.

Prior to that, I've always come to LinuxCon with the idea of I need to come back with ways with solutions for my customers and ways that I can make money. Because at the end of the day, while talking about the community and open source and software, that's all great. Somehow, I have to find ways to buy McDonald's and buy hotels to come out here

and do stuff. I can't do that if I can't sell solutions. And so LinuxCon, and OSCON really, are both conferences that are really geared towards doing that. And I know that that kind of rubbed you the wrong way in some circumstances in that, you know, this idea that everyone is selling something. And there is a difference there. And as a community member, as somebody who's just interested in seeing Linux and playing with Linux, it's really not that exciting.

But for somebody who can take a solution back and say, you are selling a solution that's maybe $10,000 or $15,000, but I could put that into, I have four or five clients that we could implement that in, and then we could net a $50,000 profit to me. That's very valuable. What do you think about this as a high-level differentiator between the two?

A Linux Fest is where you go to meet the people who are creating the code. Linux Con is where you go to meet the people who are creating the code. LinuxCon is where you go to meet the people who are selling the code. Yeah. Or OSCon. Well, so the only objection I have to that is there is a lot of development-focused sessions. Sessions, yeah. I mean, if you look at the sessions, a lot of the people that are speaking here at LinuxCon

are speaking as a developer and to other developers. So I don't know. It's a bit of a mix. You can also kind of tell one another. Another way to tell is you can kind of tell by the attendance price. Yeah, yes, yes. So these are the ones that are a little more expensive or generally they kind of probably are figuring maybe your department or your business is sending you. Right, just picking it up.

Yeah, I guess I would change developer focus to you're meeting the people in the community versus you're meeting the people selling the products. I think that I might twist it a little bit that way. And that's not to say that this isn't a good conference or it isn't a pertinent conference or valuable conference. I think for some people it's extremely valuable. One of the conversations I've noticed a lot happening here is folks that don't quite understand everything that's involved in sort of switching their infrastructure over. And so they're coming here. And I overheard a couple of conversations. I forget the name, but it's one of the Docker container managements just right here on the – it starts like with a ranch or something like that right here on the corner.

Sure. And a couple of different gals were talking about how they're coming from some Microsoft mom management system and they're moving moving over to different systems, and they don't really quite understand. There's the one guy. The reason why this story even sticks out is because she called it the, I don't quite understand this whole open source trend, and I just kind of thought, oh, how cute. It's not a trend anymore, sorry. We have taken over the world, kind of.

Yeah, you deploying a Windows machine would almost be a trend. Yeah. So, yeah, I thought that was particularly funny, is there are a lot of people here who are not necessarily totally plugged into the community aspect, but they're more plugged into the utility aspect of it. And in their defense, there's nothing wrong with spending your money to come to a conference to learn how to make more money using a technology that, let's be frank, is actually very profitable.

Yeah. There's nothing wrong with that. And good, secure, scalable. Right. It's just that it is a very different lens than you or I might take to get there. And I think that's why we're having a little bit of a challenge keeping our get-go up. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I suppose so.

I think, yeah. Well, I'm looking forward to, in the Linux Action Show, kind of putting it all together, the whole, like, we want to really kind of try to capture the experience coming. I don't know how successful we'll be, but, yeah, we're going to try to give you more of the, this, what you're getting right now is really, you know, we've been here for one day. This is our mid-game impression right now. Right. We're only midway through the game. We still have the shirt contest tonight. We still have the booth crawl tonight.

We still have the meetup. Yeah, the meetup, I think, is where the rubber's going to meet the road, because that is, I think, if there is anyone that's coming from the meetup that's been at LinuxCon, great. If they're not, just fine, yeah. But that is where we're going to hit that, that's where we're going to hit the community part of it.

And I think that's where you and I kind of both have our passion. We both kind of shine is in that space. And so, but nonetheless, what we're trying to do here, what we're trying to accomplish is we are trying to be that network that goes to these

conferences. We bring all this equipment here. We set up and we stream and give people that don't have the opportunity to be here an idea of what's here. And pick the best parts. I just realized something, too. It would be kind of fun maybe if you're not normally at these events, especially LinuxCon, more so than almost the other ones I've been to

because LinuxCon is a Linux Foundation event. Yeah. So this is kind of like the official Linux event, right? Right. And so that brings out all of the open source journalists for the most part. Yeah, that's true. A lot of them are here and a lot of people in the industry, like Mark Shuttleworth is here, the CoreOS guys are here,

the Docker guys are here, SUSE guys are here. Tons and tons of Red Hat people are here. And what's kind of neat is you get to meet people that have built things that you're familiar with, packages that you've installed, tools that have solved a problem for you. And these people are here and they're, in some ways, for some of us nerds, they're kind of celebrities in a sense. Yeah, very much so.

You know? And, you know, hey, that's that name I've seen in a blog post a thousand times or their picture next to their post. And now, like, right as, literally as we were going on air, we had a journalist stop by and take a selfie with me because he and I have never actually seen each other in person. We've only seen each other online. It's like, hey, I get to see you. And so it's kind of neat.

Like when you're coming from the outside, you get to kind of see the people behind the scenes that work on a lot of this stuff at LinuxCon. Like even eventually, the rumor is Linus will be here at some point. He doesn't go to the other ones because this is LinuxCon. Well, this is really ContainerCon, but this is LinuxCon. It might be a little more than a rumor. It might actually be on the schedule. I just don't, you know, until we have tape of it, I don't want to commit to it. But we're going to attempt to get tape of Linus Torvalds.

I guess I said tape. Yeah, so I don't know. North Ranger says, I'm curious how it compares to LinuxCons from the first dot-com bubble. Back then it was all venture capital. Now it's real profits driving attendance. That's a really interesting observation, North Ranger. It's smaller in scale. Yeah, they have been on the decline.

Although, I guess, to me, this looks smaller than it was last year. I guess the attendance is up, though, from last year, which is a good sign. Well, that is actually the interesting thing. Both last year, OSCON, I'm sorry, Ohio and LinuxCon have scaled down, but their attendance has gone up and the vendor participation has gone up. So the interest from the public and the vendors is going up, but the con organizers are scaling down because I think cons in general, with a few exceptions, are scaling down. Yeah, I think so. And I think part of that is that as people become more self-reliant and become more educated themselves, I think that they're able to find the information that a lot of people would have gotten at a conference.

And then as the Internet kind of exploded and things like blogs and wikis and forms have taken off. Sorry to interrupt you. The head of the Fedora project just walked by and gave us a wave. Yeah. So that's nice. I think that as that happens, people are able to get that information. They go, I don't need to spend that money to come out to the conference. And I've got to tell you, speaking from my own wallet, I have always made money coming to LinuxCon.

Coming to LinuxCon and taking those solutions home and reselling them, I have always come out ahead. And the key point of that, and I've liked it a lot, is TechDog in the chatroom says, I'm used to the kind of CES show where most of what interests me turns out to be vaporware. But here, everything here is a shipping product that they're demoing. Like there might be a couple things that are about to ship, but 98% of everything here, if you get an introduction to it, if you get hands-on information and you get a name and a number, when you go home, you can call that person and they can ship it to you. Yeah, that's true. But as far as the feel of the conference, very similar to CES. Have you ever been to CES?

It's a very similar feeling conference. But, yeah, that's true. I guess they don't show not released stuff yet. There's a couple of that, actually. Yeah, there's a couple of things here and there. And that's actually, though, but you don't really mind that. You like seeing the code before it's finalized. Yeah.

And so one of the things that was announced here that is pretty neat. In fact, before we go, I want to get a picture in front of it. It's IBM's Mainframe 1. Oh, yeah. Making a big stink about that here at LinuxCon. And are we allowed to say that that's going to be coming out on last? So we have an interview with them, and it's probably the coolest video I think we've ever shot.

Yeah. And that's going to be... In the Linux Action Show this weekend, which right now we tentatively are planning to do Friday at 3 p.m., but that might change, jupiterbroadcasting.com slash calendar. So, yeah, and the Canonical guys here announced. I don't know if you know anything about that, not to put you on the spot. I don't really know anything about it, but if you do, you're more than welcome to chime in.

But Canonical announced that you'll be able to get Ubuntu. Yeah, they are shipping. They have just released Ubuntu for this IBM Z series mainframe. Of course, the SUSE guys are doing it too, but it's really neat. And Shuttleworth did a surprise. Go ahead, Pope. Giant, pretty black box with orange stripes down the side is all I know from the photos I've seen.

Yeah. And Mark was there up on stage. He came up and surprised everybody during the announcement, so that was pretty neat. But we're not here to talk about HP. We're going to talk about IBM. We're going to talk about IBM and Linux Action. So why don't we talk about HP? You want to do this?

Yeah. All right. So this next clip, Noah tells me, is super cool. It's one I've really wanted to get to for a long time. So last year, I think I can tell this story now because they've come out on camera and addressed it, but last year I was here, and I was talking to a couple of the HP guys,

and I said, you know, I wish there were more big names that like actively supported Linux, like insight, like on the desktop, not just on servers, but actually, you know, running it. And he goes, and the guy tells me, he goes, I run Linux on my laptop, my work laptop. This is an HP employee? Yeah. This is last year. And he goes, I run it on my laptop. And he looks over and goes, her over there, she runs Linux. We don't, we've never even installed Windows. Our work laptops come this way. I said, well, how does the company treat you? All they treat us

great. All the software is supported. And he goes, and it just works out of the box. Everything works. And there's a big majority of us that are doing that. And I said, wow, that's really cool. Would you talk to me about it on camera? And he goes, no, I don't want to do that. So this year I came here, and I walk up, and same story. I start running into HP

employees, and they're like, oh yeah, we all use Linux. I'm like, why won't anyone talk to me? And they're like, well, we know a guy who knows a guy and he's friends with this other guy who knows this guy who is trained to speak on camera. He'll be able to talk to you. And I'm like, does he work for HP? And they're like, yeah. And I'm like, does he use Linux on the desktop? Oh, yeah.

I'm like, find him. So they go over all the conference hall. They're looking all over. And this guy comes over and he goes, can I help you? And I'm like, do you run Linux on your desktop? And he goes, yes, I do. And I'm like, I have a camera. Stand right there.

Yes, you can help me. All right, so we're going to play this interview. You know what? Before we play it, why don't I tell you about our last sponsor in the show today? That'll be Ting. And I want you to check them out because right now this whole show is running off of Ting, and it's pretty awesome. We actually started on the event Wi-Fi, which is pretty solid during the setup,

and we thought we'd be okay with that because they're like, they're like a dog with a bone when it comes to finding rogue wireless signals around here. So we started on the event wireless and that was walking for a little bit, but I've got to tell you go to linux.ting.com because at the end of the day we were so glad to have backup connectivity linux.ting.com. Ting is mobile that makes sense. Look at the signal strength. Look at that.

Full signal. Full bars. Yeah. Full bars of LTE inside of here. And you can look around people dropping on and off. Well, we were, now the only thing we did a little clever is we positioned ourselves next to a gorgeous view. Yeah, that's true. So we have beautiful windows nearby. So that's helping, but that's just us being savvy. And so go to linux.ting.com.

They'll take $25 off your first Ting device or $25 off your Ting account, you know, credit-wise. So you get $25 of service credit. And then for me, my first month, that paid for it. It's wireless service with no contract, and you only pay for what you use. It's a flat $6 for the line, and there's just your usage on top of that, and that's what you pay. They have CDMA and GSM. We're on CDMA right now, right?

Actually, we're on GSM. Oh, okay. So we're on the GSM Ting network right now, rocking that. And you can, too, and you only pay for what you use. And what's great is when you need to use a lot of data, maybe one or two months out of the year, you pay a little more. The rest of the year, your bill's so low that it more than evens out. It's gorgeous. Linux.ting.com. Go there and try out their savings calculator.

Plug in your actual usage. See how much you would save. I'm saving more than $2,000 in two years. I can buy a laptop. That's nuts. Of course, I need a laptop more often than that. Actually, my Bonobo is more than three years old. And still going strong. Yeah. So there you go. All right. So that's not so bad. Linux.ting.com. Try out the dashboard. Check out their blog. It's a great service. We're using them here at LinuxCon. We're broadcasting to our Mumba room and to our Icecast server using Ting. Live LinuxCon coverage powered by Ting.

It's great to have data in your pocket if you're in IT and they have great phones. Everything from super, super, super value phones for like under $60 you know, like feature phones, up to like the greatest hot rods like the S6, the Nexus 6, Moto X2, all that good stuff. Linux.Ting.com

Okay, Noah. I'm going to play this interview you got from HP. I'm really looking forward to this because I haven't heard this yet. I've been waiting. So here we go. Here's Noah and HP. We're here with HP and with Keith. And I noticed that in the back here, he has this big sign that says HP breathes open source.

And as a fellow breather of open source, I thought it might be interesting to stop and talk with Keith. So tell me, Keith, anyone at HP use Linux? A few people, yeah. So I'm actually the architect for Linux on the machine. The machine's a new hardware project we're working on, and the operating system we're porting to that hardware is Linux. So we're doing kernel modifications, user space modifications for that new hardware project. We also support Debian Linux in our cloud offering. So our public and private cloud, the HP Helion environment uses Debian natively. And we use Linux for all of our other server hardware runs Linux as well.

Okay. How about customers that purchase your machines and want to go install Linux on them? Do you think that's going to be a smooth experience for them? Is that something that HP supports? Yes, we've supported Linux on our hardware for the last 15 or 20 years, and we've always tried to make it as seamless and easy process as possible. We provide Linux drivers. We work with the upstream projects to make sure that the Linux kernel

and the Linux user space stuff works well on our hardware out of the box. Outstanding. Tell me a little bit about some projects that HP is either working on or projects that HP uses or projects that HP supports. So obviously we work at Linux kernel because we have hardware that needs to run on it. And then we also have a large investment in the OpenStack ecosystem with a huge number of contributors to major OpenStack pieces in the HP Cloud environment. And then we also work on other networking, NFV stuff, telco stuff, the whole gamut of enterprise computing.

HPSide, what's your personal favorite distro? I run Debian. Oh, okay. And how long have you run Debian? I've run Debian for almost 20 years. Okay. And is that something that you find that it may, can you get your work done on Debian? My business laptop runs Debian exclusively.

Really? That's pretty impressive. And HP is pretty supportive of you doing that. Oddly, yes. Debian is a very important operating system to HP. And so they're very supportive of me running Debian as my daily work environment. That's outstanding. Well, thanks so much for taking the time to talk Debian as my daily work environment. That's outstanding. Well, thanks so much for taking the time to talk to us.

We really appreciate it. Of course. Thank you very much as well. Oh, that was cool. That was pretty neat. So that last line there, Debian is very important to HP. Yeah, and I'm actually, you know, listening back, I wish it was culturally appropriate to set a camera up and then film all of the surrounding stuff because it leaves off some of the picture if you don't get the surrounding thing of all the people that were standing there that were running Linux on their work computers as well.

I don't know. You just want to lurk there and watch show them? It doesn't quite paint the picture as well as it did in person, but I guess you'll have to take my word for it. No, no. That's neat. I like to hear the passion there in that, too. I thought that was pretty cool.

One of the things that was pointed out to me, and I haven't seen it anywhere yet on any of the brochures, but somebody mentioned to me in the hallway that LinuxCon is also offering childcare. Oh, no way. Yeah. Isn't that cool? Oh, that's awesome. And, you know, when it's kind of an expensive conference,

that's really a nice perk. It is, especially because I know firsthand couples that both work in the open source community and have kids, and that is an issue for them. Yeah. Yeah, that's really nice. And for a lot of folks, not all folks, but for a lot of folks, they've provided lunch.

You know, they treat the media exceptionally well here. Yeah, we have. Yeah, so that folks, but for a lot of folks, they've provided lunch. They treat the media exceptionally well here. Yeah, we have. Yeah, so that actually, a shout out to Dan Brown, has been outstanding. I mean, every little thing I have, my email to Dan is like my lifeline, for our lifeline, really, to get things done here. When we need permission for something or when we needed them to make a couple exceptions for us and a couple rules. Just everything is –

Or even when it was just a sandwich. Andrew's able to grab me a sandwich that they're giving out to the media folks. They provide a media lounge, which isn't too uncommon, but still really nice. I think that everyone at LinuxCon has done exceptionally well. And you can actually tell it's a really polished conference. If you look at the way that they have the keynote hall set up, right? They take the time to put all of the DMX, by the way.

So I have a lot of sympathy for the poor guy who had to set all those up and channel them. But, you know, they put the little extra pizzazz to make it... You really do get your money's worth coming out here. And they got display screens up everywhere. I mean, it feels like a high-value production. It really does. Yeah, they do a really good job.

With that, there is the highly sponsored angle. Yes, that's true. The companies that sponsor, they get placed in an area called, let's see, where is it right here? It has a name that's essentially like the sponsor ballroom or something like that. And if you, yeah, here we go. Sponsor ballroom, which is harder to find than everyone else. Yeah, so essentially if you're a sponsor, you get like really fancy placement, which I guess that's fair.

I don't like. Because the difference is stark. It's like the sponsors go in a brightly lit room that looks the nicest room, and then everybody that's an exhibit that wasn't a sponsor is out in the hallways and kind of in the peripheral. As a business owner, I have no problem with them treating the people who make it financially possible to do a conference like this, treating them, giving them a little extra treatment. That's perfectly fine.

What I object to is the fact that it is so much more difficult to find that room than what we originally thought was the expo hall. If you're going to have an overflow of the expo hall, have it somewhere else. It's not the first thing you walk into. Right, exactly. And have it maybe in a room that is maybe a little bit more difficult to get to than the people that are paying the money to be there. I mean, and that's a personal preference.

I'm sure the fine people at the Linux Foundation had a very good reason for organizing it that way, and they spent a lot more time planning this stuff and thinking about it than we do, for certain. Yeah, yeah. But it did make a lot of sense to me. They have a giant hacking lounge, which is kind of cool, and they have a Birds of Feathers sign-up lounge. So that sponsor area is done really well, and Microsoft has a decent booth there, so does IBM and HP. And I'd say one of the nicest booths here, too, is the SUSE booth. I really like the SUSE booth because they have green apples out,

they have, like, green snacks and stuff, so that was really neat. And the Red Hat guys are handing out Red Hats for certain folks. That was pretty cool. Yeah. And what did you think of the Ubuntu booth? I think you stopped by that, didn't you? Yeah, I did. I got a chance to talk to them, but don't spoil it.

That's coming on Sunday. Oh, that'll be on last Tuesday? Yeah. Yeah, that'll be on Friday. Man, we've got a big Linux action show coming up. This is the last chance as we wrap up here, chat room or mumble room, if you guys have any questions from LinuxCon. Hey, Ange.

Ange. Yeah. Why don't you come over here and give the people a quick five-second, your impressions of LinuxCon. What did you think of it since you've been here today? What do you think of it so far? It's pretty cool. I love seeing JB shirts.

I've seen a couple. I've seen a couple of people that we saw at LinuxFest Northwest, and I'm already angling for a booth at another con or fest or whatever. Yeah, it's definitely, like, I say a lot of suits, but there aren't a lot of suits. But it kind of feels that way. It's very business-y. Yeah. All right, Mr. WW, you had a question about the It's very business-y. Alright, Mr. WW,

you had a question about the con in the mobile room. Go ahead, sir. So, have you come to a conclusion yet what the cons or pros are of going to a Linux con versus going to a fast where it's more casual? It kind of goes back to our answer.

It's like, if you want to kind of rub elbows with more community aspect, people that are more writing the code and thinking about the code and thinking about community and standards and collaboration, then you kind of want to go to a fest. If you want to meet the people that are creating solutions and selling the code and that maybe are going to solve a problem you have at work, then you might want to go to a con.

Not that fest doesn't have that stuff too. I would just ask, what are you going to get out of it? Do you want to talk about your passion for Linux or do you want to sell Linux? That's a little black and white, but that's kind of what it comes down to. If you have to make a decision about a flight and a hotel and the tickets, then you need to know that.

Yeah. I guess I say that because that's the metric that I've used. I would never go to a... I mean, being honest here, I would never go to a fest and expect to come back with profitable material for my business. I would never go to a con without expecting to be able to make a profit on it. And transversely, I would never go to a fest and not expect to build some relationship, but I would be perfectly okay with going to a con and coming back with nothing more than a business sense, even if we didn't have a community bonding. I mean, there is no going out to the range and shooting here.

There is no going out for burgers and stuff, unless you range it privately, as opposed to... What do you think of North Ranger? He says, maybe it's a mullet. It's a mullet of gatherings. Business in the front, party in the back. That's not bad. That's not bad.

I like that. Okay, that's a good spot right there. All right, so Linux Unplugged is live on Tuesdays over at jblive.tv. We do the show at 2 p.m. Pacific. You can go to jupiterbroadcasting.com slash calendar to get that converted to your local time zone. We'd love to have you join us live in our virtual lug in our mumble room. Do bang mumble in our IRC chat room. And you can go to jupiterbroadcasting.com slash contact to send us an email.

Or if you'd like to get content or discussions or any kind of feedback or topic generation like that, linuxactionshow.reddit.com. Noah, is there anywhere you'd like to send people throughout the week? Yeah, I'd send them to altospeed.com. And we are continuing to work on expanding the ability to do remote support. We actually just finalized the final in-production test of doing cloud-based Wi-Fi. So we now have the ability. Yeah, we now actually have the ability. And this hasn't actually gone out to the website, and we haven't sent flyers and product literature and stuff.

But we actually now have the ability. If you have a property and you want Wi-Fi in that property, we can actually ship you an entire box of stuff. Dang, dude. And you plug the cables in, and we take it from there. Wow. And we manage the whole thing remotely. Altaspeed.com? Yeah, Altaspeed.com.

We rolled that out at a hotel in Mankato, Minnesota. There was actually a guy on Twitter that was asking where he could stay where we would manage the Wi-Fi. There's a quality in Mankato. That's our first place that we've rolled that system out, and so far, it's been 100%. Cool. All right, everybody. Well, thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of Linux Unplugged.

And we'll see you right back here next week. Thank you. All right, I have an answer for you. Hey, wouldn't it be cool if your question and my answer match up? Could we have done this whole transmission over SIP back to the... Yes, yes, we could have. So why don't we just use SIP? Because I have never tried a SIP call that long to know if A, the quality would be sufficient, although I suspect it would.

But my big concern is I don't know if SIP is very, very finicky if you actually lose internet. Because it has to re-register with the server, and then we'd have to re-initiate the call. And I, that is, I would be, we'd have to try a test call for an hour before I would really feel comfortable saying try it. Although, I suppose, technically it's no worse than Skype. Skype has to, you have to register with, hey, what's up? I do SIP calls to conference calls all the time for very long periods, like two, three hours at a time. And on my home Wi-Fi, it never drops off. Really? Obviously, your on-conference Wi-Fi, it might be a bit tricky.

Yeah, we're not actually. We provided our own, and our Internet's actually pretty strong, so I'll have to give that a shot. Now, Popey, did you modify the codecs at all, or are you just using the default ones, whatever comes set with the SIP client? I was just using the default that was on Android. I'm connecting to an asterisk server in the office.

Oh, my gosh. You're doing it over Android? So we could... Yeah, that's fine. So we just bring a little interface... Oh, my gosh, dude. How cool would that be? All this can go away.

We just plug into... You had to work. What could go wrong? What could go wrong? Run the whole show on Android. I don't think anything could go wrong. Nah, it'll be fine. That'll be fine.

It should be nice. Actually, and the app has local recording as well. So it can just record the whole conversation. I use it when we're having internal calls. I record them and then make them available for other people. That's a good idea. Alright, so we've got to pick our title. We've got to go to jbtitles.com and pick this thing. Hey, I suggested a title.

You did? Yeah, for once in my life. How was it? I don't know. I don't remember what it was. Do you want to vote? JBTitles.com. Yeah, sure. JBTitles.com. Why, certainly. BanksandChess.com. Sure.

Why not? Sure. Oh, I went to JBLive.tv. Oh, how come I have no JBTitles.com? I don't know. Why don't you? Oh, I don't either. Oh, here it goes.

Now it's going. Oh, there it goes. Connecting the docks. That's kind of funny. Oh, yeah. Connecting the docks. That actually, that kind of works. That kind of works. Containing LinuxCon 2015. That's kind of funny. Oh, yeah. Connecting the docks. That actually, that kind of works.

That kind of works. Containing LinuxCon 2015. That's not bad. LinuxCon 2015 mullet party. That's not bad either. There goes Greg KH. All right. I have voted for this. Colonel Maintainer Extraordinaire.

Absolution of Attribution. Hobnobbing with the celebrities. Look at us. Yeah, yeah. Hobnobbing. That must be a... I've heard of Hobnobbing with his celebrities. Look at us. Yeah, yeah. Hobnobbing. That must be a... I've heard of hobnobbing before. Oh, yeah, totally.

Try to educate him, man. Has Popey told you about his new snack that he really likes? Haggis? What? Haggis. Am I pronouncing that right? It's delicious. Yes.

Tell him what it is, though. It's awful. Mixed with oats and spices. it's awful with oats and spices it's awful so it's like it's like a breakfast boiled yeah you often have a slice of it slice of it fried uh with breakfast if you have like a full english breakfast you'd have like sausage bacon eggs beans and all that and black pudding i'm thinking about pudding but black pudding and haggis are very similar. But no, you'd normally have haggis

with potatoes and vegetables. It's lovely. It's like stomach and kidneys and stuff. What do you fry it in? Like what kind of grease or oil is it?

No, no, no. Sorry, I was confusing. Oh, that was black pudding you fry. Gotcha. But haggis comes in like a bag. It used to be like

sheep stomach. A bag. Sheep stomach, yeah. And you boil it. Yeah, boil sheep stomach. Come on. Let's stomach, yeah. And you boil it. Yeah, boil sheep stomach. Come on. Let's not. It's delicious, man.

It's delicious, see? Yeah. Yeah. My wife won't eat it. She won't go anywhere near it. What's it smell like? You're married up. When she goes out, it smells delicious.

It smells like a bag of offal boiled. What else is it going to smell like? You're married up, my friend. Do you put any sauce on it or you just eat it as is? Actually, I had it the other night with some sriracha on it, which was even better. Because sriracha makes everything better. Sriracha does. You know what Rakai puts sriracha on?

Pizza. Sure, yeah. Sure, yeah. Totally ordered pizza with sriracha. It was really good, actually. No, I've seen that. That's a thing. That's good.

JBTales.com. Barbecue, I guess. Oh, stop it. Damn it. If you dig a pit. If you dig a pit. If That's a thing. That's good. JBTalents.com. But can you barbecue a haggis? Oh, stop it. Damn it. If you dig a pit. If you dig a pit. If you dig a pit. Connecting the docks, containing LinuxCon 2015 are my favorite.

There is a vegetarian haggis, by the way. Connecting the docks is good, but containing LinuxCon suggests LinuxCon. I think actually connecting the docks is good. You're going to have containing. It should be can't contain LinuxCon. Containing LinuxCon 2015. Can't contain. You can't contain LinuxCon. Containing LinuxCon 2015. Can't contain. You can't contain Linux, man.

I don't know if you get it. You don't get it. I think connecting the docs is better. No, if you don't watch the episode, you don't get it. So I think I like connecting the docs better. All right. North Ranger, you win, sir. You win.

What was yours, Colonel Linux? Can't contain Linux? Ah, I see. See? Get it? Yeah, I do get it. Now I see why you were enthusiastic about that. So, Mumborm, were you able to hear the clips it? Yeah, I do get it. Now I see why you were enthusiastic about that. So, Mumbo, were you able

to hear the clips okay? Yeah. It's a little hokey, but every time we get it, we learn. So, thanks for making it, you guys. I love your faces. You're welcome. We actually didn't even remember you guys until this morning. That's not true at all. Chris remembered you.

Well, Noah didn't, and so, since I was still planning equipment, I was still figuring out how I was going to do it this morning. That's true. That part is kind of true. All right, you guys. What? We're going to expect some flowers, and then we'll be fine. Okay.

All right. I can do that. Flowers and haggis. What about chocolates? And haggis. Oh, and haggis. Yeah. Popey can supply the haggis.

All right. First question on Bruce's talk. Do you think, do you have a, will they have a full link to that? I think so. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yes, they will.

They will publish it. They send it off to their media guys and then they send it out to Mount Kilimanjaro where monkeys chew on it for a while and then spit it back out and then a hiker brings it back down from Mount Kilimanjaro and they publish it. And that takes a couple weeks. I believe that's how it works. It's a big mountain, you know?