LINUX Unplugged - Episode 129: Shaky Linux Foundations | LUP 129

Episode Date: January 27, 2016

Has the Linux Foundation made moves to cut out the individual from having their voice heard? We discuss the latest controversy brewing this week and the foundations response. Plus why if you're still ...waiting for Wayland to ship, your doing it wrong, AMD’s plans for the open future, some updates from some of our favorite projects, stories from SCALE14x & more!

Transcript
Discussion (0)
Starting point is 00:00:00 We made it from California. We left California at 1 a.m. and made it. I mean, we made incredible time. We made it through California, Oregon, and most of Washington in one day. Wow. Do you guys trade off? Yeah. You're totally smashing this, like, internal opinion I have of you of a very sweet-smelling man now.
Starting point is 00:00:17 Well, you know, all things said, all things said, I actually think I came out smelling like roses, really. No real smell. The hair got a little out of control. Whoa. Yeah. So that's why we didn't see much of you. If I do manage to get all these out in rover logs, as the rover log goes, my hair goes from combed to progressively just a disaster
Starting point is 00:00:35 because literally at one point, I'm not joking you, on our way home we got stuck in a tornado in an RV and it was one of the scariest things that's ever happened to me and so it just goes off the rails. It goes off the rails. It's ridiculous. It was a hell of a drive home.
Starting point is 00:00:50 Where on the West Coast did you encounter a tornado? Yeah, yeah. Do tell more. Northern California. Northern California. And it was no freaking joke. I literally thought I was going to destroy my brand new home. Oh, man.
Starting point is 00:01:05 Hail the size of marbles at unbelievable speeds. How did Rover 2 make it out? Well, pretty good, I think. Looking good? I documented all of it, so I'll put it all out in the Rover log. Oh, perfect. But it's funny because we're driving down the road and we're listening to a podcast. And the stereo system switches over and there's this piercing emergency sound that comes from the stereo.
Starting point is 00:01:32 It resets the volume. It resets it to the FM radio. And they override your stereo system and you start getting the, if you are on the road, take cover immediately. This is an emergency. I'm like, holy crap. That's crazy. Yeah. Oh, and Hadiyah's sitting there driving.
Starting point is 00:01:49 She was driving at that point because we were trading off. She's like, should I keep going? I kind of want to see it. I'm like, at first I'm like, yeah, let's keep going. Let's see it. Think of the network, Chris. And then as we start to see the big semi-trucks bailing off the road and taking refuge under overpasses
Starting point is 00:02:05 I start to realize this and then I start to look ahead and I'm like I can't see beyond a certain distance that's all just gray and then I'm like pull over pull over we gotta get off the road it was something I did not expect to run into a tornado
Starting point is 00:02:21 and they're like if you are in a high profile vehicle or a motorhome, you may want to consider abandoning the vehicle. Like, this is what they tell you on the radio broadcast. Wow. Because you're extra susceptible to the wind. Right. But the problem is the hail was so powerful and so fast and so strong that you would have
Starting point is 00:02:37 been seriously injured if you actually tried to evacuate the vehicle. So we couldn't evacuate the vehicle. You had no choice. We had to stay in this huge wind catcher. This long, tall wall couldn't evacuate. You had no choice. We had to stay in this huge wind catcher, this long, tall wall that catches wind. That's what we had to stay in during the tornado because we would have been seriously injured. It was really something. Can I give you some advice if you ever encounter a tornado again?
Starting point is 00:02:59 Yeah. If you're watching it and it doesn't appear moving, get out of the way. It's coming towards you. Yeah. It was moving five miles per hour across I-5. And one of the things we thought about, because where we had to park the whole vehicle was unlevel, right? And so you're going through, you're trying to just do everything you can, but the vehicle
Starting point is 00:03:20 is really, really off kilter because we're half off the road. And that makes us even more susceptible to wind getting knocked over, right, because we're sitting there leaning. And so we're trying to decide, should we put the jacks down? But, of course, the jacks are metal, and there's tons of lightning because it's a tornado. And so I was like, we can't put the jacks down because then that would ground us because right now we're sitting on rubber. But the vehicle's at a slant. So if we put the jacks down, it would correct the slant of the vehicle and make us more stable. But then we were grounding the vehicle, and if we got struck by lightning, we'd be really screwed.
Starting point is 00:03:49 So we stayed on the rubber. It was really something. It was intense. That sounds like quite the moment. Yeah. I'm glad. I'm very thankful that we have you back here. And I got a lot of it on camera.
Starting point is 00:03:59 Not all of it, but a lot. So I was talking about the tornado just a second ago. But the other thing that worked out really, really well is I pulled off at this place called Battle Rock Beach. And it was in the middle of the night. So I had no idea what it was like. I kind of – I could tell because I couldn't see off into the distance. I thought this might be a great view. So I parked the rig down – this is in Oregon on our way down to scale.
Starting point is 00:04:22 I parked it, woke up in the morning to this un... That's beautiful. Look at this. I went up. I had to go up and crawl up. Look at that. That's from the roof of the rover there. Wow. You just parked right there. Yeah. And I went out and I got some footage with the GoPro. I got some super awesome...
Starting point is 00:04:43 I'm holding the GoPro there. I have it on a stabilizer. Look at how happy you are. I took it up to the water. Hadid, I got this shot from far away. I'm sitting there trying to get a shot of the ocean. There it goes. I got my boots a little wet for good footage.
Starting point is 00:05:03 Well, it's worth it. That's all in the line of duty. But that turned out to be a great spot on the way down. I mean, you know, I don't even know if you can get a hotel that nice. Yeah, right? That was waterfront. Pretty, pretty great. You just wandered right down to the water.
Starting point is 00:05:16 Made up for the tornado on the way back from scale. Oh, so this is on the way down. Yeah, this is on the way down. And really, the whole payoff was getting to see Popey, who turns out to be a well-smelling gentleman. I can confirm he does smell well in real life. He caught me on a good day. Well, no. I mean, no. No. A conference when you're traveling, not your typical good day. Because I'll tell you what happened to me. Total devastating disaster. We were moving
Starting point is 00:05:41 from the old rover to the new rover, Lady Jupiter, as we call her. And we moved everything except for the absolutely most important things for a trip like this. My mixer, my microphone. Oh, Chris. And all of the toil trees. All of it. Toothbrushes, combs, hair anything, soap, anything. Left it all. So we got down on the road
Starting point is 00:06:05 and realized we didn't have any of our stuff. It was awful. So, Popey, I congratulate you for making it over to the west coast of the U.S. of A. and smelling like a gentleman. With your basic hygiene intact. While at a conference. That is a true feat. I'll tell you what,
Starting point is 00:06:21 the hotel we stayed in was okay. And as with many canonical events, when there's more than a certain number of people, we share rooms. So I shared a room with one of the other community guys, Michael Hall. And, you know, we didn't – the shower wasn't huge. So squeezing us both in there together was a little bit of a squash. But, you know, we managed. That sounds fun. He's asking for fan art.
Starting point is 00:06:51 This is Linux Unplugged, episode 129 for January 26, 2016. Welcome to Linux Unplugged, your weekly Linux talk show that's recovered from the scale hangover by drinking beer. My name is Chris. My name is Wes. Hey there, Wes, and a good beer it is this week. It sure is. It's a sour one. Now, coming up on this week's episode of the Unplugged show, we don't have a sour show. No, no.
Starting point is 00:07:24 Never. We have a great show. We're going to have some updates from our friends on some of the projects they've been working on in the Linux community. Then did you hear the big drama around the Linux Foundation kicking out the individual contributor? It's a big hoopla. We'll tell you what's going on, who's spreading rumors,
Starting point is 00:07:40 and what the reality likely is with the Linux Foundation. Then, later on, have you wondered, where the hell is Wayland? Wait, what? It's almost become a joke. Wayland hasn't shipped yet. I actually went back in the Linux Action Show archives. I went back as far as 2011.
Starting point is 00:07:55 We were still making jokes that Wayland wouldn't ship this year. That means we probably predicted in 2009 it would ship. I mean, it's a mess. I'll explain why Wayland hasn't shipped, and it's not the reason you're thinking. In fact, if you're asking that question, you're asking the wrong question. That's right. That's right. That's right.
Starting point is 00:08:12 And then, towards the end of the show this week, Wes's best friends over at AMD. Good buds at AMD. I love those guys. They have launched today GPU Open. GPU Open. Actually, I don't know if it was launched today. But they have launched recently GPU Open. And we will talk about that.
Starting point is 00:08:28 As well as catch up on shenanigans. Maybe chat a little about scale. And all of those goodies right here on the Unplugged show. You know, before we get rolling, let's bring in that Mumble Room, our virtual lug. Time appropriate greetings, Mumble Room. Hey. Time appropriate greetings. Hello, Mumble Room. Time-appropriate greetings. Hello, guys. Hello. So I don't know if anybody out there
Starting point is 00:08:48 in the Mumble Land is drinking along with the show today, but Wes brought in a real sour beer. This is a sour beer. It's called Wild Sour, and it's the Flanders Red. Product of the USA. It's got a BA score of 82. Has an
Starting point is 00:09:03 APV, an ABV of 6%. This is a really, like, it almost tastes like the sour stuff that's in some sour foods. It's so sour. But it's also got a really nice, clean finish. I like it a lot. So that's what we're drinking this week on the Unplugged. We've been doing the beer thing to sort of encourage the community hangout aspect. It's been fun.
Starting point is 00:09:22 So, Wes, we have a big story to talk about that I meant to cover in Linux Action Show last week, but the scale shenanigans totally got away with things and didn't get a chance to cover this. And so I wanted to give a mention out to Jonathan Thomas who shipped OpenShot 2.0
Starting point is 00:09:40 beta. This has been the Kickstarter project we've all been waiting for. OpenShot 2.0 is a This has been the Kickstarter project we've all been waiting for. OpenShot 2.0 is a whole bunch of new stuff. It's the new UI look. It's a whole bunch of fixes he's been working on, and Kickstarter backers are getting the update first.
Starting point is 00:09:55 It's pretty exciting because you guys know I follow Linux editing pretty closely, and I still think it's a pretty bad state of affairs. He put together a little video. Let's check it out. It's pretty cool. Look at that. That's him putting that out.
Starting point is 00:10:12 Now, I'll jump ahead a little bit here. So you can get a basic idea of what the UI looks like here. It's nice and it's available. It works on Windows. It's going to work on the Mac and Linux, of course. He's showing it here under Ubuntu. I It's going to work on the Mac and Linux, of course. He's showing it here under Ubuntu. I am hopeful. I am hopeful.
Starting point is 00:10:34 I am not exactly sure what to expect yet still. There's no binaries that I have found. Even though I'm a Kickstarter backer, maybe I missed an email. That's very possible because I've been traveling. But the source code is on GitHub right now. In fact, I think even 205 beta is up, or something like that is up on GitHub. So you could go get it right now.
Starting point is 00:10:55 It just doesn't include a lot of things you need to make it all run. But there is hope out there. We have a couple of good video editors that are in the works right now. So I don't think OpenShot's ready yet, but hey, you know what? It's great to finally see some code shipping after quite a while. I can't even remember, but I think it's been a few years now.
Starting point is 00:11:14 Yeah, definitely. So, Poby, welcome back from the US of A. How was your visit? Did we treat you okay while you were over here? Oh, yeah. I had an amazing time. Loved it. Absolutely loved it. That's great. I asked P asked popey i said so what was one of the first things you did when you got here and he's like well i got chicken wings of course nice yeah did you did you get beer with the chicken wings or just the chicken wings of course yeah found a nice little uh place
Starting point is 00:11:38 called barney's and uh had uh some belgian beer and uh chicken. And that sorted me out really good. Now, this isn't your first visit to California, is it? No, it's the first one to L.A. I've been to Palo Alto and Oakland and San Francisco. So what did you think? What strikes you when you visit here? I'm curious, just from somebody who doesn't really have that outsider's perspective. When you get here, even if you've had the revelation before, what is it that strikes you when you visit?
Starting point is 00:12:05 So customer service is the first thing. It's night and day compared to the UK. So over there in the US, it feels like people genuinely want to serve you well and for you to have a good time. Whereas over here, you'll get a surly person who doesn't give a shit whether you have a good time or not and whether you enjoy your food or drink or whatever. Whereas over there, when we're in the bar, all the waitresses are very friendly and the waiters as well.
Starting point is 00:12:35 I just had a really, really nice time, and I feel like the people are nice and genuine. And Pasadena is a lovely, lovely place. Yeah, it is. I was really surprised by how great of a venue that was and how convenient it was to like really great food. Ubicon had an after party at the Brazilian barbecue, which happened to be where we went for lunch that day. It's just an incredible venue, really nice, classy, accessible, but big enough to host a large group. And that was one of many places around the convention center.
Starting point is 00:13:05 Yeah, you could have gone to a different place every night. And we randomly chose most of them. We didn't have to go looking for Yelp reviews or anything. We stumbled on this little Korean place, which was a little bit weird. It was super cheap. And the food was part Korean, part Japanese. So it was like sushi and Korean sake and stuff. But all the while, there was a TV
Starting point is 00:13:27 which was constantly streaming Korean pop music, which was really weird. So it's funny you say that. There are a lot of Korean channels in Pasadena because the Lady Jupiter has a HD antenna that goes up. One of the first things I do now that I got this is I raise the... That's awesome.
Starting point is 00:13:44 It's literally called the Batwing antenna. And you sit there and you crank it up and it goes up. And it kind of looks like a Batwing. And I tuned in about 30 non-English channels and about half of them were Korean. It's a thing. I just couldn't stop. I couldn't take my eyes off the TV while I was eating. Yeah, me too.
Starting point is 00:14:00 It's like every time I went back to the Rover, I'm like, holy crap, look at this. This is unbelievable. Yeah, Micah. We had a great time. Micah was there. He helped us out with the reservations at the meetup. Popey was able to come and say hi to the meetup. He made an appearance because, you know, he was a working girl while at the convention.
Starting point is 00:14:16 We all were in a sense, but, I mean, he had to go back and do his business. So how did that all go for you? Was it a decent success? Would you do it again? Yeah, totally. of that i'll go for you was it a decent success would you do it again yeah totally uh i like the uh so the ubicon was good because there were a few uh talks that i i didn't know about you know stuff that i was i was interested in in seeing so actually you know as someone who's one of the well partially one of the organizers and i was giving a talk myself um it was really nice for
Starting point is 00:14:41 me to hear like what other people in the community had to say and see a different perspective than just the one from Canonical. Tell me a little bit about your talk. So I talked about a service that I created. So immediately before my talk, Stuart Language talked about building services on top of Ubuntu phones. So rather than just nagging us about when the next phone is going to be available when you know moaning that there's no game center or something like that rather than you moan about it why don't you go out there and build something right so his talk was all about building something and that kind of dovetailed nicely with my mine and his joint talk which was we built something so um yeah it
Starting point is 00:15:20 was quite cool it was nice and i did a demo and it worked. That's always nice. Yeah. I had a webcam pointed at a phone in my house a few thousand miles away just to prove that it was doing what it wanted to do. So, yeah, that was quite good fun. Cool. I've had the foresight to set up a webcam before I left the house flying around the world. Well, I had like five minutes to talk to Mark Shuttleworth. And I asked him if this is going to be something that we're probably going to keep doing. He kind of gave me a can't answer, which I kind of gave him a hard time about.
Starting point is 00:15:50 But essentially he said that the unconference format feels pretty good to him and that this in-person thing and sort of riding along with another conference seems like a no-brainer for them. So I don't know, Poby, if you guys are going to do something like Ubicon again. But I thought it was a big draw. I talked to a lot of people that were there specifically to go to Ubicon. So I think it's something you guys should keep up with. Yeah, the next one is going to be in Europe. I think Germany is the next one towards the end of the year. I think it might even be booked in for November.
Starting point is 00:16:22 Oh, okay. We'll probably alternate and have one in Europe, one in the U.S. But the thing is, it's not us, as in Canonical, that organize them. It's up to the community. If you want to have one, you create one in your region, and we'll help you where we can. How did that work exactly? So the Ubicon that happened at scale was set up by a virtual – who is that? Who's talking back to us?
Starting point is 00:16:44 All right. Wes is watching. It was the virtual user... It was the real actual users group, the physical users group that sort of organized it. How did that work exactly? So the Southern California Linux user groups and the loco teams, the Ubuntu community teams,
Starting point is 00:17:03 are all really active. And many of them are involved in um scale anyway so it was very easy for them to you know organize things with scale and get the venue and get the rooms booked and all that kind of stuff so they did all the logistics and you know we have a stand in the expo area and all that at scale as well and for the whole of like for ubicon as well so um it was very easy for them to do that organization because they were already linked to an existing event and i think that's where it probably pays off is if if you're in a local area and there's already an event nearby you can tack one day or two days off it's like a good relationship you know yeah and it you know it means you don't you as a as a community person
Starting point is 00:17:44 don't have to fork out for a huge venue that's very expensive. And that Pasadena Center is massively expensive. It's really, really expensive. Yeah, well, it's a nice venue, so I would imagine. It is, yeah. We had a chance to chat with one of the organizers about the incredible ham radio setup they have there just so that way the different organizers can communicate. Oh, really? Wow. That's how they punch through some of the interferences.
Starting point is 00:18:05 They use ham radio. And it was so cool to hear them geek out about that. And then he pointed out where some of the antennas were. If you looked, you could see, like, they have – and the Pasadena Convention Center, of course, is pre-wired. They have antennas installed because this is a common thing, I guess. Pretty neat. Pretty cool.
Starting point is 00:18:21 I mean, it's a pretty big event. I mean, you have to keep this in perspective. It's being put on by the community, right? It's not O'Reilly Media coming in and organizing all of this. It's not the Linux Foundation that is organizing all of this. It's the community. And it's still
Starting point is 00:18:38 a huge event. I think they said they had something like 3,600 people. That was the number I heard, too. It was 3,600. That was the number I heard, too, was 3,600. That's just what I was going to add. So it was a really cool event. We're going to go more in detail in Linux Action Show, but it was really neat to see you there, Popey.
Starting point is 00:18:52 And I would encourage people to check it out. Yeah, it was good to see you in NOAA, too. And you know what? We had a hell of a meetup. Hell of a meetup. It was pretty funny because we had 40 people RSVP or 40-plus people RSVP. And so Micah68 there in the chat room – no, not Micah. It was Micah.
Starting point is 00:19:11 Not Micah68, different Micah in the chat room realized, well, we should probably give these people a heads up. Well, at the time he gave them a heads up, it was only 20 on the meetup list or something like that. And then they lost the reservation altogether. They lost it altogether. And so I get there and I'm like, it was a reservation for 20, but it's probably going to be more than that. And then I'm like, I should, and then like five minutes go by and I'm like, I should probably let her know by more than that. I mean, double. So let me clarify.
Starting point is 00:19:40 But they never, they never heard me after the number 20. They just went with the number so and like party of 20 yeah we have 20 people coming yeah they got 20 we need to set up a table for 20
Starting point is 00:19:49 like I heard them talking all the time about 20 people I'm like and I kept like ma'am it's probably going to be more than like 40
Starting point is 00:19:54 eventually we just completely overtook their entire outer seating area I mean I think it was like maybe 55-60 people I don't know how many people
Starting point is 00:20:03 wow that's great it was huge it was huge the class, 60 people. I don't know how many people it was. Wow. That's great. It was huge. It was huge. The bus place as well. We went there a few times and the beer is good in there and the food was good too. Yeah, the Yard House. Yeah.
Starting point is 00:20:13 They had a great selection of beer. Great selection, which was the rarity, including Ian from System 76 had me try this peanut butter beer that he got. Peanut butter beer. Peanut butter beer. Oh. And it was smooth. It was real smooth. I got a local- You don't want chunky peanut butter beer that he got. Peanut butter beer? Peanut butter beer. Oh. And it was smooth. It was real smooth.
Starting point is 00:20:26 I got a local— You don't want chunky peanut butter beer. I got some—yeah, you don't. I got some strong Belgium ale. I can't remember the name of it was now, but it was really good. It was excellent. Hey, you know, something we've been talking about here on this show. I don't know.
Starting point is 00:20:40 I'm just—I'm fascinated. Ike or Josh aren't here today to talk about it with us, but a lot going on with Solis. I don't know. I'm fascinated. Ike or Josh aren't here today to talk about it with us, but a lot going on with Solus. I don't know. Maybe it's the way they communicate. Maybe it's the brash goals that they have. Something about this project. I'm just fascinated. Very visible. Right? Yeah. And so
Starting point is 00:20:58 they're going out and making waves again, and the folks over at Softpedia have been really ... I want to couch this conversation just saying they've been really making the folks over at Softpedia have been really... I want to couch this conversation. They've been really making some changes over at Softpedia, and I want to talk about that with you guys, too. Wimpy, you're in here, right? I want to talk to you about this, too.
Starting point is 00:21:13 But Solo S is going to be supported for the next couple of years, this next version. And so I guess they say they're going to cry to squash, I quote, all bugs. And I don't know how the hell that's possible, but alongside with their crunch and focus for 1.1, we're also continuing our campaign of bug crushing. We have crushed 22 bugs over the last week, ranging from long string bugs that have been resolved since Budgie rewrite to recent ones that related to inclusions of Git-based patches for new software in the repo. So they're going through making supposedly this next release super, super solid, Wes.
Starting point is 00:21:43 What would it take? This is my question to you. What would it take for you to honestly and legitimately install Solus and run it on like this laptop or a work machine that you are going to use every single day? What would it take? I think it really probably comes down to package availability. I'm willing to do a little bit of work to get the packages if I need to.
Starting point is 00:22:02 Nothing crazy. But if I can use the tools I expect day to day, you know, even if it's like a compiling or something akin to... So it sounds like the barrier's not high. Yeah, no. I mean, everything looks nice. I'd have to play around with Budgie a little more to see if it met
Starting point is 00:22:17 my workflow, but I assume I could change that. Is anybody in the Mumble room using this as their daily driver right now? Yeah, that's a good question. It doesn't sound like it. I don't think it's reached that level yet. Maybe when this 1.1 comes out, I'll step up and put it on this laptop. I don't want to – I don't really know – I don't know how to – I don't want to do this without – there's a lot of Softpedia shame online. A lot of people don't like Softpedia.
Starting point is 00:22:39 Yeah. And as somebody who just takes on a lot of news sources, I just sort of weigh each article on its own merits and I sort of build sort of a following with an author, those kinds of things. And so for me, it's not so much about where you publish. It's more about what you publish. But regardless, SoftBeauty has a hell of a name and not necessarily a good one at that. And I don't actually know of another outlet out there, say maybe Pharonix, that is actually as closely following less headline-grabbing projects that do deserve attention. And they also are following projects that do deserve attention. But I find that they're actually in some cases contacting the distro makers and getting quotes and actually verifying things, which— That sounds like real reporting. Yeah, and I'm wondering, Wimpy, I know I've seen a lot of articles from them about Matei Edition.
Starting point is 00:23:30 I'm wondering what your experience has been on the end of the person getting reported on and what your experience, because that's a pretty valuable perspective. Yes, Sophopedia certainly strike me as an outlet that are far more grassroots community focused. So they are paying attention to a broader range of Linux news that appeals to probably more the enthusiast. You don't see so much of sort of the enterprise stuff. It's sort of, you know, more desktop and mobile. enterprise stuff it's sort of you know more that's a good way to put it mobile um and yes in the past they have um contacted me directly to clarify things prior to putting stuff out um but in the main they like to be first to report on things so um you know there is it depends it depends
Starting point is 00:24:25 whether it's a big story and they want to be first or if it's something new and they want to be accurate, it varies but also I forget his surname Swapnil from used to be Muckedware and Linux Fader
Starting point is 00:24:41 he writes for various places, he's very good as well if he wants to cover a story he's very thorough, he writes for various places. He's very good as well. If he wants to cover a story, he's very thorough. He sets up a Google Doc and gets all of the involved parties together and has a whole question and answer and has various people come in and actually sort of write their responses. And then he brings that all together so he's the most journalistic of the people that i've encountered that really goes to people and gets gets not just copy off the website but actually wow you know what was his name again maybe what was his name uh oh yeah oh sorry i missed it yeah yeah of course i know he was at uh scale actually oh yeah yeah a whole bunch of us from ubuntu there
Starting point is 00:25:23 was like eight of us sat around the table I love the picture he got of you guys crossing the street he posted that to Google Plus I hate that photo you look great in that photo you look like you're contemplating and looking ahead to the future thinking about converged devices it's a great shot of you
Starting point is 00:25:38 I think I was just trying not to get run over yeah I told him the problem with Swapney is, and I'm already doing it right now, is I want to say Swap when I say his name. So that's really the big problem is I just want to call him Swap. But, yeah. You know, you don't need Swapnell if you have two gigs of RAM.
Starting point is 00:25:59 She's rotten. Oh, but I'm bump. Anyway, so, yeah, I agree. That is, to see Softpedia take a step up is nice. Hopefully, here's the photo I was talking about. Hopefully, look at it. That's Popey there in the jacket with the third over from the left. Beautiful.
Starting point is 00:26:18 That's a great shot. It really is. Look at that. That's Wapney's Ubuntu crew crossing the street sort of in echo of the famous Beatles shot, I think. It was pretty good. It was a pretty good shot. There's only one thing I would say about Swapnil is that when he made that Mugtware version of the onion, it was really annoying. Because Mugtware was both news and fake news.
Starting point is 00:26:46 Oh. It was kind of like, It's difficult. It's difficult. It's like, why are you purposefully creating noise? There is
Starting point is 00:26:54 much discussion to be had there. But, that said, I would, I would encourage people, you know, to just sort of
Starting point is 00:27:01 reconsider from time to time and take each article in its own perspective. And of course, LinuxActions.reddit.com is a great place to discuss the merits of an article because I do read those comments and weigh them when I'm thinking about covering a story. So, yeah, I have found their coverage to be interesting.
Starting point is 00:27:16 It's been something I've been starting to visit on a reoccurring basis. Always good to see better, you know, more and better Linux news coverage. Yeah, sure. Yeah, sure. Very much so. You know what else is new, better, and always getting better? That's our friends over at DigitalOcean. Man, they've been making UI improvements that I love.
Starting point is 00:27:29 It's some really nice stuff to make it possible to do things at scale. Yeah, speaking of scale. Oh, look at that. Use our promo code right now. Won't you D1 plug to support this show and get a $10 credit over at DigitalOcean, which is a simple cloud hosting provider dedicated to offering the most intuitive and easy way for you to get a Linux rig super fast in the cloud that you control. Root access, HTML5
Starting point is 00:27:48 console when you need to really screw around with that thing, and you can get started in less than 55 seconds. 55 seconds! Whoa! Man, that is really something. That is... Woo! 512 megabytes of RAM. Boom! 20 gigabyte SSD. Boom! One CPU and a terabyte. A terabyte of absolute domination transfer
Starting point is 00:28:04 for $5 a month. Use that promo code, deal unplugged, one word lowercase. You get $10 credit. And the really nice thing about DigitalOcean is they've got data centers out the wazoo. Yep. They've got them all over the place. Wherever you want to look like a boss, you can have a data center. If it's in New York, yeah, you've got a data center in New York.
Starting point is 00:28:20 If it's in San Fran, yeah, now you've got one in San Fran. Oh, Singapore? Sure. Amsterdam? You know how they were there. Yeah. But let me tell you about Toronto. That's where you go to be in the north, right?
Starting point is 00:28:29 Right there on the Americas. But guess what's not in Toronto? The NSA. Oh, also, by the way, Germany. This is a sweet spot for all of Germany's neighbors. Or if you want to stream something to Merkel herself, you've got to have a droplet in Germany. In country. It's the only way she's going to watch it.
Starting point is 00:28:43 But really, what's great about DigitalOcean is their awesome support of Linux, working upstream, all SSD drives, and this incredible interface. I love this interface. The only thing better about this interface, the only thing better, is the API. Oh, man, that API. Holy cow, the API is straightforward. But the nice thing about it, and I'm going to tell you, Wes, sometimes I hit the lazy button.
Starting point is 00:29:04 See what I do here is I go over to this community page, and you just go to it, and I'm going to tell you, Wes, sometimes I hit the lazy button. See what I do here is I go over to this community page, and you just go to community, and then you go to projects, and you're like, I want to have a project, right? No, this is where you go to find a whole bunch of really good open source code that's already written around that DigitalOcean API, and there is tons of stuff you can take advantage of right now.
Starting point is 00:29:19 I'd be scrolling if you're watching the video version. Oh, did you see that? I was just using the Vagrant integration the other day. Really? Yeah. How so, Wes? Why spend up a VM on my local machine when I can get one in the video version. Oh, did you see that? I was just using the Vagrant integration the other day. Really? Yeah. How so, Wes? Why spend up a VM on my local machine when I can get one in the cloud for so cheap, right? Totally. Totally.
Starting point is 00:29:30 In fact, they even have hourly pricing. And on top of all of that, with one-click applications, deployments that are super easy, they also have great guides. Like here's one they just posted on how to set up Let's Encrypt certificates. Nice. For multiple Apache virtual hosts on Ubuntu 14.04. That's seriously helpful. DigitalOcean.com. Use the promo code DLUnplugged.
Starting point is 00:29:48 Go get your own super fast rig up in the cloud that you have root access to. You can do whatever you want. Either deploy applications with a single click or set up the entire infrastructure yourself. Be a boost at DigitalOcean.com. Use the promo code DLUnplugged. And a big thank you to DigitalOcean, not only for rocking so hard and making Linux super cool and a first-class citizen on your service and using Linux to power the entire infrastructure. KVM. Yep.
Starting point is 00:30:11 But also for supporting the show with DL Unplugged. DigitalOcean.com. Thanks, guys. All right. It is almost a joke now. Where in the world is Wayland? And it's always like, is it ever going to ship? And I will admit of having fully participated in the world is Wayland? And it's always like, is it ever going to ship? And I will admit, having fully participated in the joke,
Starting point is 00:30:29 I was going to play a clip for you guys where we predicted Wayland would ship to show you, just as a bit of context, how long we have been expecting Wayland to be the default display server. And this is sort of where you go off the rails, but bear with me for a second. server. And this is sort of where you go off the rails, but bear with me for a second. Best I could estimate, I think in 2009 or 2010 actually, I think it was 2010.
Starting point is 00:30:52 2010, I said it would be default. In 2011, 2012, and 2013, I made a joke prediction, as well as did Brian and Matt at those times, that Wayland would still not be shipping and no one would care. And it has sort of been the joke prediction in our show for so many years that we've stopped making the joke. It's still a joke.
Starting point is 00:31:08 I heard the joke at scale. And the problem is it's actually completely and totally the wrong question. The question really isn't, is Weyland ready yet? That's not really what you should be asking. The better question is, is Gnome ready yet or is Kaewyn ready yet? Because, I mean, yes, there has been work that needs to happen on Wayland. But Wayland itself is a protocol. I'm going to get more into that in a second.
Starting point is 00:31:31 But blog post here from the Gnome blog – and I'm forgetting the person's name right now because, you know, I'm going to blame it on the beer. He says, it's been our goal now for a while to get to a point where whaling could be declared complete and ready to be enabled by default. We've come a long way since starting the porting effort in 2013. In fact, we feel we're close enough that we can aim for whaling by default in Fedora 24. So this is, you know, something that's been – everybody's been talking about for quite a while now, you know, getting whaling by default. There's been a lot of work fixing things like dialog boxes and pop-ups and applications. GTK Plus has had a lot of work that's gone into it. Kinetic scrolling now works better under Wayland.
Starting point is 00:32:11 Drag and drop now works under Wayland. Copy and paste is getting close in a lot of cases. But this isn't the problem. See, this is what you have to understand. The question isn't really, is Wayland ready yet? That doesn't make a lot of sense Wayland is a communication protocol and says very little about the implementation of the two sides you want to communicate say your web browser a compositor the protocol is stable and has been for a while
Starting point is 00:32:35 but not every compositor and or toolkit or application speak Wayland yet so it may not be sufficient for your use case so rather than asking is Wayland ready yet, you should be asking can I run GNOME or KDE or Enlightenment under Wayland? Are they talking Wayland yet? Because they have to be their own compositor now. They have to do that own work. They have to be their own server talking Wayland to the client application. All this stuff now has to be implemented. The burden is on them.
Starting point is 00:33:03 It's just not done yet. It's not ready yet. But we still talk about it like if Wayland isn't shipping. Wayland shipped, everybody. News alert right here. You can use it today. Breaking news on the Unplugged program. This is CNN
Starting point is 00:33:18 Breaking News. Wayland shipped. It shipped a while ago. One, it's done. The problem is graphics drivers aren't ready. The desktop environments aren't ready. All of our little esoteric applications aren't ready yet. We're not ready. Wayland is here. It's good.
Starting point is 00:33:36 Yeah, I mean, so I wanted to just sort of talk about this for a second because it's sort of, I heard it come up at scale. I've seen it online a million times. There's a blog post about it right now. Why aren't we shipping Wayland yet? I've even participated in it. And in reality, it's just that it showed up and we weren't ready for it. It's kind of what
Starting point is 00:33:51 it feels like. I don't know. I think what the author says here at the bottom that there are exceptions. You know, that the protocol does still need a few things to be worked out in a way that's not implementation defined, you know. So we want to make sure that KDE and GNOME don't do disparate things
Starting point is 00:34:08 where the protocol is maybe lacking clarification or lacking definition. And I wonder, too, in a world where the Linux desktop is already not a primary citizen, how much capability we can sacrifice to transition and still make it work in a reasonable way.
Starting point is 00:34:23 You mean like if we don't get it right, the cost can be too high? Right. Like if copy and paste almost works, well, how many people who use Mac or Windows can deal with not having copy and paste, right? So I don't know. I think we're getting really close. I think that this is a very good point and that we are already seeing like Gnome. I love when we see the updates from the Gnome team and the KDE team about how far they're compositing their window managers are coming especially the kde updates but
Starting point is 00:34:48 yeah kitson you think that's indicative of maybe a systemic problem in the desktop projects themselves or the communities what do you mean uh possibly it just seems like at least one of the desktops would have it fully working by now since it's already shipped. It's been shipping for, what, six months, about a year now. I'm just kind of surprised that the X standards where they got together and all agreed on certain standards or for the icons, et cetera, drag and drop, copy paste, all that stuff,
Starting point is 00:35:20 there was actually a huge foundation that was created just for that. Why don't they do the same thing for Wayland? I thought it was kind of being put on by the same people. That was my understanding. Heavens, I want to give you a chance to jump in just before we go too much further. Go ahead. Well, there's a really easy or simple reason why people seem to think of Wayland as a thing.
Starting point is 00:35:43 Because our old X server was a server and a thing which had to run, which Wayland doesn't need to run. It's just a protocol for the window manager to actually manage and use its compositor through. So based on the X386 migrating to the XOR server, people just confuse it that way. Also, Wayland is secure by default, which is why something as weird as copy and paste or moving things between one composited window to another secure, like, composited window is a little bit tricky, while the X server is insecure and root horror. Right.
Starting point is 00:36:24 That's actually, so we're talking about the copy-pasting. The problem is these are all isolated, protected applications now. We've grown used to not having the security. Yeah, so sharing data between them is tricky. William, go ahead. I want you to get a chance to jump in. Yeah, so I don't think it's so much the desktops holding it back because Noma actually has pretty decent Wayland support if you use, say, the latest Fedora image.
Starting point is 00:36:44 It's mostly graphics drivers at this point, right? Because it works fine on Intel for the most part, but if you go to NVIDIA or AMD, you're still missing complete OpenGL ES support, which you need for Wayland to run. That's a total kneeback anyway. Nobody's buying a $1,000 plus
Starting point is 00:36:59 computer and saying, I don't need my GPU. Maybe some of the most hardcore open source advocates are, but the majority of consumers are not going to buy a computer with a $300 part in it and be like, I don't need that. You could get Iris Pro graphics that work, though. Yeah, I mean, yeah. Some people are totally happy with the Intel graphics.
Starting point is 00:37:17 My issue with Intel graphics remains, once you put them in a high DPI environment, you again feel the immediate crippling of integrated graphics. If you use it in a 1080p environment or even a 2K environment, Iris would probably work for people who don't play games a lot. But, yeah, in high DPI, it's just awful. This is really something that I find to be fascinating. Now, Wimpy, what is the Maui project? I know I've heard the name before. Is that like Rebecca Black Linux?
Starting point is 00:37:46 What is this? No. Maui is the operating system, and I think it's the Hawaii desktop or something. Yes, I believe so. Hawaii. Yeah. But they took the Western reference compositor and then built up a lightweight desktop environment around it. And it's the only, aside from
Starting point is 00:38:07 GNOME 3, which is sort of adapted from X to Wayland, this is the only desktop environment that was focused on Wayland from the outset. Now, I don't know if we've actually had a chance to install it, but I think we actually talked about this about a year ago. So has this been around for a while? Yeah, I don't know if we've actually had a chance to install it, but I think we actually talked about this about a year ago.
Starting point is 00:38:26 So has this been around for a while? Because I think we – Yeah. I've been aware of it for a few years because – I don't know if it still is, but it was – It was 2014. Okay. Now, I think you brought up an important point when describing it. So you guys out there have heard of Wayland, obviously.
Starting point is 00:38:44 The other thing you'll often hear about is Weston. Weston is a reference compositor. Weston is not really something, it's not like, it's not something that KWin developers are going to use. It's not something that GNOME people are going to use. It was a reference point. That's what Weston is. And that's been done for a while, too. Right. Now, what were you
Starting point is 00:39:00 going to mention? Well, I was going to say, here's another Wayland-focused environment that is supposed to be a drop-in replacement for the i3 window manager. What is this called here? Sway window manager. SwayWM.org. Boy, look at this. So, I mean, I think as these things come along, power users may be, you know, if there's a nice timeline window manager, maybe I can make do with Wayland right now.
Starting point is 00:39:20 Yeah, and we're watching a little demo. They have a little demo video up under our website there. That does look pretty good. I can do this and then maybe MPV plays with zero. Look at that. It's kind of smooth, too. It actually has some... This is kind of nice. Yeah, right? I might give this a try. This could be a
Starting point is 00:39:35 legitimate way to get into Wayland a little sooner and not expect all of the features of such a rich desktop environment like GNOME or KDE. And you could probably have this as one of your logins, right? You know, from your display manager and then go back to X if you needed to. You know, he's playing video there in that one window, and there's no tearing there.
Starting point is 00:39:51 No, it looks beautiful. Yeah. The dream. Let's put a link to this in the doc. I'll put it in so we can have that in the show notes. That's pretty cool if you guys want to check that out. So it's a tiling window. Do you call it a window manager now?
Starting point is 00:40:02 Well, that's what it says. Yeah, that makes it a window manager. Okay. It's actually a successor to i3 because the i3 team said they weren't going to make a SoFi Wayland version, so that's why they made it. And it says that they bring in your i3 configuration file, so it has i3 configuration compatibility. Oh, oh, oh. And i3 IPC compatibility, which would probably mean like some of those plugins and stuff, which is super cool. And also multi-head support.
Starting point is 00:40:25 Oh, and GAP support, which I know you had to compile in separately. What's gap support? Is that for like in the monitor? No, like between your tiles. If you don't want them right next to each other, you can have a little window gap between them. Oh, that's cool. Which can look pretty if you want to see a little bit of your background.
Starting point is 00:40:38 You guys have wanted me to take a tiled window manager challenge for a while. This is the way for it to get me in now. Now I'm like, this is awesome. This is really cool. So yeah, drop-in replacement for i3 window manager, but a while. This is the way for it to get me in now. Now I'm like, this is awesome. This is really cool. So yeah, drop-in replacement for i3 window manager, but for Wayland instead. It will work with your existing i3 configuration files and adds a few extra features on top of that.
Starting point is 00:40:52 And the other thing, I don't know what the state of multi-monitor support is for like KWin and GNOME. That's a good question. Probably depends on the driver. North Ranger, yeah, go ahead. Yeah, I think we're finally getting to a point of critical mass with Wayland where the whole ecosystem around it, and that's really what we've been waiting for for a long time, as everybody's alluded to.
Starting point is 00:41:12 It's drivers, it's desktop environments, it's the apps. And we've been through this kind of thing before. I mean, there was a long time ago when Linux kernel was at 2.2, and people didn't trust kernel 2.4 for a long time. So early adopters were hitting it first, things like that. Same thing with file systems. So I think there's a lot of similarities there, and overall I'm hopeful. And I think we are reaching that tipping point where people want the security that comes with Wayland. The performance is pretty much a wash,
Starting point is 00:41:43 and we're finally getting that decent support from the drivers and the ecosystem side. Yeah, I really hope that does pan out. I'm still waiting for mine. But yeah, I definitely am ready to not see when I full screen video to see tearing. Right. So I was done with that. Have video first class under Linux. Yeah, I would love that.
Starting point is 00:42:02 And just the sense of knowing that I'm using something that's not so archaic, like there's no material impact other than I guess my security is probably not as good as it should be. Right. But I'm ready to move on. Anybody else in the Mumper room have any closing
Starting point is 00:42:19 thoughts on the Wayland stuff before we move on? Do you really think Wayland's about to be heralded in i still feel like it's a long way away i mean for example in the last few years whilst wayland's been brewing we've all been spoiled with steam yeah and while we don't have proprietary driver support for Wayland, I can't see people who have embraced Steam on their Linux workstations wanting to switch anytime soon. No, I, you know. Isn't that what the ex-shim, the ex-Wayland thing, isn't that what that's for anyway? But see, this is the thing, though.
Starting point is 00:43:01 Games, you're going to want the best performance possible. But see, this is the thing, though. Games, you're going to want the best performance possible. I know that the next series... That brings up that whole debate about, you know, how should Linux do games? Should we have a way in the protocol to give games full video games? Well, when it comes to Wayland and KDE and GNOME, it's up to KDE and GNOME to actually get this implemented and deployed.
Starting point is 00:43:22 It's not Wayland themselves which can actually deploy something and get everyone on it. It's built in to the desktop environment. I guess the question there would be, is there protocol implementations they can make to make gaming better? Right. It's not about making gaming better, and I don't think that GNOME and KDE can be faulted, because
Starting point is 00:43:39 they've both been working very hard on bringing Wayland support to their desktop environments. They've been too working very hard on bringing Wayland support to their desktop environments. They've been too busy making their desktops actually usable and ironing all the bugs out from their new 3.10 releases, KDE 5.0 releases. Once they get all these bugs and things, wrinkles, smoothed out from their new desktop environment implementations, they can finally focus on something that is on the back burner, which is Wayland support. I would say...
Starting point is 00:44:10 No, I disagree. I disagree, because what's actually been happening is that the toolkits have been evolving, and therefore the desktop environments that are built on top of those toolkits have been evolving alongside those. And that work has been moving on at quite a pace if you if you actually look at the amount of effort that's gone into supporting wayland on kde and gnome 3 there's been a lot of effort and they're both very close and they've both got implementations where you can run uh both their desktops on top of wayland but that's not the
Starting point is 00:44:42 issue and the issue is also not whether games will run better on Wayland or if there's protocol support for in optimizing uh Wayland support for running games it's the drivers we've got Intel support which is fairly decent but without the proprietary driver support to give that performance that's required for gaming and 3D and what have you, people won't make the switch. Well, here I see two things that sort of are hedges in our favor. The first being obviously SteamOS. I mean Valve has the final say on what ships on SteamOS and they can continue to use X11 for as long as they want or they can build some sort of shim, something like that. But
Starting point is 00:45:27 I am encouraged by the news I saw today that the next Serious Sam game is going to ship supporting Vulkan out of the box. And really what the question is is the way we need things to line up is we need game developers to
Starting point is 00:45:43 support Vulkan and then we just need the Linux drivers to have good Vulkan support and Wayland support. And if everybody's interest and priorities can align this way, we're in pretty good shape. And the thing is, a lot of priorities and interests are beginning to align this way already. The slow pivot. Yeah. Interests are beginning to align this way already. The slow pivot. Yeah.
Starting point is 00:46:05 So Vulcan could be an answer to that. And I think SteamOS is our short-term hedge while this stuff is sort of sorted out because Valve is not going to ship what Valve doesn't want to ship. Yeah. But the thing is, is that Vulcan has come along while Wayland has been brewing. And I'm not sure there's any provision in wayland for vulcan at the moment i could be wrong about that because i haven't looked into it too carefully and i'm not entirely sure if it matters it doesn't matter there's no reason why you would want at a display server level to be concerned with something that would be interpreted by the driver and then rendered out that way boy but you know what surely surely you need for example for for wayland to let's just go back to gl open gl surely you need wayland to understand the open gl extensions for it to be able to render
Starting point is 00:46:59 those things and in the same way surely it needs to be able to do that for for vulcan as well that that would be done by the drivers for for vulcan as well that that would be done by the drivers and stacks on top of them that's usually done by messa uh now as to what protocol it uses to go into to use this with that's that's separate i'm not so sure i think wayland needs to be able to interpret some of those extensions no it really it really doesn't, because all it's going to do, the client of Wayland, is it's going to ask for an OpenGL buffer, and I think you can still speak Vulkan over that. I think you can still upgrade that to be Vulkan compatible,
Starting point is 00:47:33 and it will just render it within that frame that it was dictated by the West End compositor. Well, one of us is wrong. I would actually bet that the answer lies somewhere in the middle because it seems too clean one way and it seems too ambiguous the other. Oh, the Talos principles included there. I like that game. I will link to the thread that you just put in the chat room, Wes. There is a Linux gaming thread about how Vulkan will impact open source drivers, and I think they get into Wayland in here.
Starting point is 00:48:07 We are about to go through a massive transition, and the closer we get to this, the more and more obvious it is why Valve was very, very smart and thinking ahead when they decided to release SteamOS. Because they're like, this is a great platform for us to target, but you know they had to know about this stuff coming up. I mean, you don't choose Linux as a platform without following what's happening. And maybe that because they now have so much skin in this game,
Starting point is 00:48:32 maybe they will be incentivized to work with whoever they need to work with to make this an easier transition for us. Put pressure on game developers to support these newer. We could be so lucky, right? Isn't that the positive side of commercial interest, using Linux? We could be so lucky. Yeah, Isn't that the positive side of commercial interest using Linux? We could be so lucky. Yeah, I wonder. We'll find out. I wish we had a crystal ball right now, but people in the chat room are saying that Fedora 24 with Wayland is real and is possible right now.
Starting point is 00:48:58 Kitson, I'll give you the last word on performance and reliability, then we'll wrap it up. Go ahead. Yeah, I've actually been using Wayland quite a lot as my daily driver on the most recent Fedora release. Really, I think Fedora should have just jumped in, released their current release with Wayland, and said, hey, we're all about promoting future technologies. This is what we do. This is what this distro is about.
Starting point is 00:49:27 And I think. Did you go away, Kitson? Oh, he went away. Come back. I thought he was making a good point. Essentially, I think what his point is, is that because Fedora is a cutting edge distro. It's the place to try it. Well, that's probably where we are going to see it first.
Starting point is 00:49:41 The outlook is good for the 8-ball. This is the JBot 8-ball in the chat room. There you go. There you go. The outlook is good. That is the decider. That's the final word on the. But that's probably what we are going to see at first. The outlook is good for the 8-ball. This is the JBot 8-ball in the chat room. There you go. There you go. The outlook is good. That is the decider. That's the final word on the – but that's it. Kit's got a good point, and I think when it comes time to do our Fedora review,
Starting point is 00:49:53 I'm going to have to try it on some Intel hardware and my XPS house and Intel Iris Grounds card. It was. Mm-hmm. Chris's new Wayland machine. Hey-o. Tell you what else is new. My friends over at Ting got some new sales I'll tell you about here in just a second. But first, why you should switch to Ting.
Starting point is 00:50:09 I love it. I use Ting all the way down to scale and back. And let me tell you, it is nice to know that Ting is mobile that is finely different. No contract, no determination fee, and you only pay for what you use. $6 for your line. Pay for what you use. So you go down to a trip to California. Maybe use a little more data on your
Starting point is 00:50:26 way down, on your way up. No bigs, because you know what? Now I'm back here at the JB1 headquarters. I'm on the Wi-Fi. Wes, I'm on the Wi-Fi. So it all is no bigs. So my bill is cray-cray. With three smartphones, it's cray-cray. Cray-cray low. Low. Hey-o! Yeah, like December
Starting point is 00:50:41 was like $27 or something. I couldn't believe it. That's like one meal out. Yeah, the average ting bill, I guess, per line is like $27 or something. I couldn't believe it. That's like one meal out. Yeah, the average Ting bill, I guess, per line is like $23. So think about a way now. You can go get a smartphone that's completely under your control. You can get the quote-unquote Google experience, if you like. Get that real pure experience. Get something that's unlocked, something you own outright, and you're paying like $23 a month.
Starting point is 00:51:01 Whoa. Man, that's great. So Ting also has an ETF relief program. If you're stuck in a duopoly contract, they have super great customer service, a fantastic dashboard to manage your Ting account. I mean, it is really the best in the industry. And like I mentioned, they got great sales going right now. So go to linux.ting.com to support the show and get $25 in credit or $25 off a device. If you want an internet phone, they got the iPhone 5S unlocked. You own it outright, $338 right now.
Starting point is 00:51:32 Nice. Really nice deal. The S5, refurbed edition, $298. That's a great Android phone for $298. Unlocked yours. You own that S. With all the money you're going to save on Ting, I mean, you could just buy one of these phones
Starting point is 00:51:48 and not worry about it. The Galaxy Galaxy Galaxy S6. This is a really nice phone with the octa-core processor, few gigs of RAM, the PCIe storage, the fantastic camera. You can own it outright. Completely unlocked. No contract.
Starting point is 00:52:05 $597. Boom. That's a really good deal. I think when I got unlocked, no contract, $597. Boom. That's a really good deal. I think when I got mine, it was like $700. Don't tell people. That's embarrassing. It sucks, dude. But now Rika's got a great phone.
Starting point is 00:52:14 Oh, yeah, right. There you go. That's true. That's a true story. That's another Ting success story right there. There you go. Yeah, it pays to be the editor, doesn't it? So go to Ting.
Starting point is 00:52:27 Go get yourself a great phone. Go get yourself a plan. Because really, they've got stuff as low. You can get a decent phone for as low as $100. Or actually, if you want to get a feature phone, much lower than that. And if you've got a phone, and you probably do because they've got GSM and CDMA networks. So if you've got a phone, I encourage you to just go get a SIM card. Because the SIM cards are really cheap, $9.
Starting point is 00:52:47 You pop a SIM card in. This one SIM card here fits all your different devices. It's really cool the way they do it. And you just pop it out to the size you need. They really were pretty clever when they designed this thing. I'm thinking about having Ting be my backup network, you know, when certain other large networks aren't working so well. This is a great way to go.
Starting point is 00:53:07 $6 a month. We kind of unofficially do it here at the studio already. So, of course, we don't use it as our primary internet here at the studio, but when the studio goes out, the first thing we do is we start tethering from our Ting devices because it's just data. It doesn't affect the contract. I don't have to call up and get a shared program. No, I just turn it on. And I just bill it for what you use.
Starting point is 00:53:23 It is really, really nice. Check it out. Linux.ting.com. And a big thank you to Ting for sponsoring the Unplugged program. Linux.ting.com is where you go to support this show. Okay, let's talk about the Linux Foundation. This happened while I was on the road. I didn't even
Starting point is 00:53:39 know this was going down. But apparently this is another disgusting example of what happens in the Linux community. I'll start you off at the top. So there's been a controversy that's erupted around the Linux Foundation. It's whether the Linux Foundation essentially is serving open source community or corporate sponsors. That's essentially the takeaway headline. or corporate sponsors.
Starting point is 00:54:03 That's essentially the takeaway headline. But the Linux Foundation, the nonprofit organization that supports Linux and increasingly other open source projects, like I'm a big fan of the fact that they have the Core Infrastructure Initiative, which funds a lot of really important open source. They tend to not really have any controversies, but I really hate this. Michael Garrett, a security developer at CoreOS, a former Red Hat employee, et cetera, et cetera. You've probably heard the name before.
Starting point is 00:54:31 Recently spotted that the Linux Foundation has changed its bylaws to no longer permit individual foundation members to elect members of the group's board of directors. Garrett wrote, The majority of its board is chosen by member companies. Ten by Plat platinum members. Platinum membership costs $500,000 a year. Three by gold members.
Starting point is 00:54:51 Gold membership costs $100,000 a year. And by one silver member. A silver membership is $5,000 and a $20,000 a year, depending on your company size. Up until recently, individual members, which I am a loved one, for $99 a year could also elect two board members, allowing a community perspective to be represented at the board level, which is one of the reasons I became a Linux Foundation member. Get your voice heard.
Starting point is 00:55:18 So this is an article at ZDNet written up by Stephen, and he says, why would the Linux Foundation do this? Garrett speculates it's because of Karen Sandler, the executive director of the Software Freedom Conservancy, a woman who we have interviewed many times on our shows.
Starting point is 00:55:35 An organization that does vitally important work of the enforcement of the GPL. I recently shared with you the story about their fight to enforce GPL violations of VMware. VMware, who is a Linux Foundation member. So Garrett speculates that the individual membership program was quietly renamed to the individual supporter program, and the promised benefit of being allowed to stand
Starting point is 00:55:59 for and participate in board elections was dropped. He compares the old page and gives you a link to the new page. He asked why would the Linux Foundation do this? Well, he states that historically it's been less than enthusiastic about GPL enforcement. And the Software Freedom Conservancy is funding a lawsuit against one of the foundation's members for violating terms of the GPL. He speculates they have made this move to prevent Karen Sandler from joining the board. He speculates they have made this move to prevent Karen Sandler from joining the board. Then because of this speculation, Karen Sandler has found herself under attack by people who have assumed that her mission is to bring some sort of agenda to the Linux Foundation,
Starting point is 00:56:49 one that they would define as a social justice warrior's agenda. And so she has now come under attack because of Garrett's speculation here. The Linux Foundation didn't help the situation. It's not really their fault. But Jim Zimmerman – or but Jim Zimmerman Zemlin who I've met and talked to before he's a nice guy was apparently busy
Starting point is 00:57:11 while all this shit was happening and everybody was declaring that the Linux Foundation had betrayed the community and that this was an effort to switch to corporate backing and that this was also an effort to block Karen
Starting point is 00:57:25 Sandler. Some even speculated a move by Linus Torvalds himself, orchestrated by Linus himself. Some of the crap that's out there is unbelievable. And it turns out, of course, that the guy that runs Linux Foundation was busy. In China. They couldn't get out because they were in China with limited access to email. As a result, they only became aware of the problem 48 hours after it blew up on social media. And then they tried to make an immediate response on their blog, which completely sucked and was insufficient.
Starting point is 00:57:54 Sorry, Jim, but it's true. The conversations relating to the Linux Foundation governance changes had developed into personal, inappropriate, and offensive remarks, he writes, directed at some members of the community, in particular against Karen Sandler, the executive director of the software freedom conservancy. But if you extract yourself from all of that crap, I think the real question behind the debate is who actually is controlling the Linux Foundation. Is it the users or is it the companies? Now, the current developers themselves are able to elect some members of the board, like the technical steering committee.
Starting point is 00:58:27 But Michael Garrett, or Matthew Garrett, sorry, sees it as a move as the Linux Foundation is taking one more step away from the community and towards the corporate world. It's not exactly addressed either. That point is not addressed in the Linux Foundation's post. That's why I say it's insufficient. I say it's insufficient. But he does tellingly say that the process for recruiting community directors should be changed to be in line with other leading organizations in our community and our industry. In other words, nobody else does it this way. So in addition, Garrett pointed out individuals no longer have the ability to run for and vote for the Linux Foundation board seat and influence the direction of the foundation, which I think is a bit of a loss.
Starting point is 00:59:08 That said, a lot of times what happens is these board positions are clown shows. They're people who are sort of positioned there by a corporate interest. They're people who want to be positioned there because it's better for their career to have it on their resume. They are not always, always fully representative of who you actually want. And a lot of times it's really the companies that have different people in those positions, line them up so that way they can influence things. And even when that's not the case, like in the case of HP, it's often accused to be the case. It's claimed to be the case. So it often looks bad anyways.
Starting point is 00:59:38 It is, to me, coming back from my trip, I look at this and I go, this looks like a hot mess. And I find myself to be sort of like taken aback by all of it. Wimpy, I'm curious what your reaction is. I see you had some thoughts. Come on, Wimpy. What? Are we in the wrong? Oh, sorry, Wimpy.
Starting point is 00:59:58 Go ahead. Sorry, we're in the wrong room. Wimpy, are you there? Did we lose you? I think he's so upset he left wes well we should take a moment and have a beer we should take a moment and have i do think he makes a good point though that uh you know we have to consider the nature of linux you know it's an open source thing it exists on its own the linux foundation has always been you know like he's as
Starting point is 01:00:19 a trade association it's kind of a a nice mechanism to extract money from people who use linux for their profits and then gear that you know use it for open – the infrastructure. But it has not – it is not. And as Greg KH talks in our Linux link, the community members haven't necessarily besides B. Dale been good representations of the community. They haven't really functioned this way. So maybe a name only. I really like – so Greg KH took to Linux subreddit and responded
Starting point is 01:00:47 to some comments, and I really, we're going to link to that in the show notes, because I really liked his take on it. I don't know, can we not hear anybody in the room? Somebody say, North Ranger, say something for me. Can you? Do you see? Yeah, do you see him lighting up? Yep. Well, I don't know what's going on. Computers are hard, Wes. I don't know what's going on. We're not experts here. No, no.
Starting point is 01:01:04 I don't understand how computers work, And as far as I'm concerned, we should all go back to calculators. I don't know, maybe close that thing and reopen it for me, Wes. I have no idea. I have no idea. I look at this and I'm trying to suss out if there is bad blood between the Linux Foundation and the Software Freedom Conservancy. That's really my question. Right. Is there something going on there? Is the Linux Foundation affected by its members? I would tell you – I would like to sit here and tell you because I have a lot of respect for the Linux Foundation.
Starting point is 01:01:39 I've worked with them on some projects in the past, several projects in the past. They do a lot of good things for the ecosystem. Yeah. Yeah. Like they pay Greg and Linus. They do a lot of good things for the ecosystem. Yeah. Yeah. Like they pay Greg and Linus. That's a great – and the core infrastructure, all kinds of stuff. They – I also have seen sort of a side of the Linux Foundation that gives me pause because it doesn't seem genuine.
Starting point is 01:02:00 It doesn't seem honest. And that is there are news outlets online that purport to be just straight news outlets that are actually PR fronts for the members of the Linux Foundation, primarily SUSE and Red Hat, but others as well, that hire people that are their PR people, to write articles for them, and then they publish them on these quote-unquote news sites as an article that essentially implies this is why you should use distro, you know, insert Red Hat or Seuss or whatever, instead of something else. And they are essentially native advertising pieces that the Linux Foundation is allowing their members, their contributing members, to publish through their publishing platforms. And I find that to be disingenuous,
Starting point is 01:02:47 and I also over the years have found it to actually be shaping the tone of the conversation in the community, and I find that to also be disgusting and disingenuous. So I would like to say that I have absolute respect for the Linux Foundation, but if I'm being completely honest with you, I have seen some practices that seem disingenuous to me. Basically, it seems that if you write a big enough check to Linux Foundation, you get access to their publishing platform. Got to do what they want.
Starting point is 01:03:10 You want. And that bothers me because as somebody who publishes, like that really bothers me. Now, maybe I have it wrong. Maybe I don't. But I do wonder if this is a shift more towards corporate funding, corporate sponsoring, corporate interest, which is honestly where Linux makes its bones right now. And maybe this is a moment for us as community members to consider, you know, just how we think of the Linux Foundation in terms of the larger ecosystem and other organizations that maybe can do similar roles.
Starting point is 01:03:38 The other thing I question, and I wish I knew more about it, and I absolutely welcome Matthew Garrett to come on the show if he wants to tell us about it himself. The mumble room is open when it's working. What I don't understand exactly is why Matthew made these speculations about the Linux Foundation making these changes specifically to
Starting point is 01:03:58 try to screw Karen. I know that there was some timing of some talks canceled and all that kind of stuff, but when you talk to Karen, there doesn't seem to be any malice on her part. And I'm just wondering where that speculation came from because it led to some weird stuff that happened.
Starting point is 01:04:12 And I'm kind of curious why he did that and maybe if he knows something that we don't know. But it seems like he went to his blog and made some speculations that ended up causing a shit ton of issues for the Linux Foundation who are honestly doing something that any foundation would normally do. I don't necessarily agree with it.
Starting point is 01:04:28 And there is merit to him bringing up that they did away with the seeds. It's just kind of the other stuff that got glommed on there that maybe took away from that. Exactly. Exactly. Like I think it's a good thing to mention as a contributing member. You wouldn't have known this otherwise probably. That part, totally valid. We should have a conversation about that.
Starting point is 01:04:45 The speculation why they did it, it feels off base because it's nothing unusual for a foundation to do like this. By their own bylaws, they're allowed to make these changes like this. It's all internal. Yeah. I don't know exactly. It leaves me taking a bit of a pause. But the full write-up, Stephen Jay, Von Hoff Nicholas, did a great – I just added the Hoff. He wasn't at scale.
Starting point is 01:05:11 Oh, that's too bad. Yeah. He's like pretty much one of the only Linux quote-unquote celebrities that wasn't at scale. I don't know. I mean, that's all right. Noah was there showing him up, so it doesn't matter. JB's own. He would have had to compete with Noah.
Starting point is 01:05:23 I can understand why he wouldn't. How many people can do that? How can you? Right. He doesn't bring the Google Glass, though. Really? You know why. JB's own. He would have had to compete with Noah. I can understand why he won. How many people can do that? How can you? Right. He doesn't bring the Google Glass, though. Really? You know why? That's disappointing.
Starting point is 01:05:30 You know why? No. Here's something you'd never know unless you're a glasshole. If you change radical climates, Google Glass gets destroyed. Only because, so the way that it works is the projector that projects the thing in your eyeball, it projects against a foil reflective material that's on the end of the prism that then bounces it back into your eyeball. When you travel, and see where Noah's at, it's like below, it's like negative 16 Fahrenheit
Starting point is 01:05:54 right now. So it's like crazy cold. It's inhuman cold. It literally is not survival. No one should live there. No. He should move and he should come to Seattle. Come join us and pient up.
Starting point is 01:06:02 But he's, you know, like the boiling frog, he doesn't know life any other way. But what he has learned is when he travels to places that have human climates, like the West Coast, I'm not, boy, people are snowed in right now. We don't get any snow. So I don't mean to make fun of you. travels, if he makes large climate changes, the foil that the prism uses for projection reflection bubbles up. And it destroys the ability to project anything in Google Glass. Permanently? Yeah. Wow. And so he has to get it
Starting point is 01:06:33 replaced every time he does this. And Google's been pretty good about it, but now they don't make glass anymore. He feels like this might be his last glass. So now he's afraid to travel with it in the winter. So it's a home glass. It's home glass because it's too cold where he lives. Yeah. He needs like a humidor for it.
Starting point is 01:06:49 Yeah. Yeah, maybe. Maybe. Now, hold on. Now, see, A. Gates, earthquakes ain't got nothing to do with climate. That's two separate issues. Yeah, we're going to have an earthquake. That's why I drove Highway 101 so I could see the coast before it falls off into the ocean.
Starting point is 01:07:01 I thought it would be beautiful. I don't know what to do about a mumble room. Yeah. I don't know what to do about that. Freak. Yeah. I don't know what to do about that. Freak high. What's going on? I'm not sure. What's going on with that?
Starting point is 01:07:09 You closed and opened it, right? I sure did. Yeah, I don't know. We're in the on-air channel. Yeah, we are. We are. You know what I'm going to do? I'll reset the channel over on the mixer.
Starting point is 01:07:16 Here we go. You ready for that? Let's see here. I think that we should all make those businesses fail. Now I just got to purge this buffer over here. Get it out of here. Okay. Here we go.
Starting point is 01:07:30 Okay. Wimpy, can you say something now? Are you there? Hello. Yeah. Yay. Welcome back. Hey, it worked.
Starting point is 01:07:38 Look at that. Our dearest friends, the mumble room. That's all you got to do. You just got to reset the channel and flash a little bit. So if there's anything you want to mention on the foundation thing, go ahead. No, I think Wes covered it. My point was very brief, and that's that the Linux Foundation is a trade association. You pay to be a member of that trade association,
Starting point is 01:07:57 and the Linux Foundation represent the interests of its members. interests of its members and for the most part the interests of its members are going to be conflicted with grassroots community stuff there's going to be some overlap you know you've mentioned core infrastructure projects and all the rest of it that's terrific but being no doubt that we're a we benefit as a byproduct of them serving look members. Look, we made you a nice platform that works. Oh, you guys can have it for free. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, but, you know, that's it. It's a trade association.
Starting point is 01:08:34 There are lots of them in different industries and that's how they work. I would understand that they wanted to remove, you know, instead of having two seats, they wanted to limit it so they could open another seat to another corporate interest or something like that. That makes sense. But to completely remove the community from the situation is just really weird.
Starting point is 01:08:55 It feels like it made them special to me. It feels like what made them special is gone. Right. I don't think we'd question it if they'd never had one, if that had grown up. But the fact that they have had it and then just remove it even if it wasn't necessarily doing its job, yeah, it's hard to ignore. To see the internet go batshit crazy though and say that Linus is orchestrating some sort of campaign against social justice warriors is sort of like – I can't imagine he would care for more than his colonel to even worry about that. Yeah, it's a total misread of what Linus' priorities are.
Starting point is 01:09:22 It shows what total lack of understanding people have of how the community actually works. It's sort of ridiculous. We've got a community calling for our destruction here, Chris. Why is that? No, what happened? In this earthquake. Oh, I know. Dude, they're going to totally cause it to happen.
Starting point is 01:09:41 Thanks, guys. Thanks, guys. That's all right. Then I'll just have to move over to – You've got a mobile home now. Thanks, guys. That's all right. Then I'll just have to move over to... You've got a mobile home now. Yeah, man. I live on springs and shocks. I won't even notice.
Starting point is 01:09:51 No, actually, that's not true. You know what I do notice? Linux Academy, because I notice that they have made some major improvements over at Linux Academy. I'd like you to go there. It's a learning platform for Linux and all the technologies around it.
Starting point is 01:10:01 Everything that really kicks ass in the Linux ecosystem, they've got stuff to help you learn and manage it, including AWS platforms, of course the Red Hat certified courses, step-by-step video courses, so many of them, downloadable comprehensive study guides, instructor help is available, 7 plus distros for you to
Starting point is 01:10:18 choose from. That's the highlights. Linux Academy has really been rocking. They just had a big announcement recently. They've rolled out a ton of new features, but one I want to talk about today, which I think is super cool, is the new Linux Academy mobile app for iOS and Android. This is a really, really great idea. If you get a couple of minutes on your device, I think this is going to be the way to go. You're going to see the Android version coming at the end of Q1 2016.
Starting point is 01:10:41 It's going to be free for all the users. Of course, you're going to need to be a member to take advantage of it. But look at that. Right there. It gives you an idea of what it's like to become a Linux Academy member. You can choose a topic. You can go into Linux certification training. You can go into OpenStack, AWS, DevOps. Once you go into those realms, there is
Starting point is 01:10:57 so much content to learn. There is scenario-based labs. There are great, great exercises for you to take. There are nuggets to go deep dive into a single topic when you're ready. In-depth resources, virtual machines that spin up with the courseware on demand that you can SSH into. Brand new CDN to distribute all of that content. And live streams of a bunch of really, really great sessions where you can ask the educators questions directly.
Starting point is 01:11:23 It's amazing how helpful this is, just if you want to be a Linux professional in any way, right? Maybe you've been doing it forever and you want to catch up with what's this DevOps jazz you keep hearing about. One of the things, there's two things in Linux Academy were really kind of like game changers for me personally. The first one was taking courseware and breaking it
Starting point is 01:11:39 down into hours. You know, learn Python in six hours. No longer this nebulous thing, oh I need to spend six hours that I can actually understand Python. But the other thing is, is I suck at taking tests. Like, not my thing. I hate it. Like, because I always feel like tests are like of these scenarios that never actually
Starting point is 01:11:54 happen in the real world. And so then I do. In the real world, you just Google for the answer. Right. So now, one of the things they have to help with test anxiety that I have is practice exams. Nice. Yeah. You can use Linux Academy practice exams to help with test anxiety that I have is practice exams. Nice. Yeah, you can use Linux Academy practice exams to help prepare your way through the, like maybe AWS or one of the Red Hat courses or anything like that.
Starting point is 01:12:13 You can also take Linux Academy quizzes to help ensure you're learning the core concepts required to be successful. So not just passing the test. Not just passing the test. Really understanding it. Yeah, that's really nice. You don't use it, you know. You've already deployed it once you've finished with Linux Academy. And as a listener of our program,
Starting point is 01:12:28 you go to Linux Academy, linuxacademy.com slash unplugged. You get a great discount. That's cool thing number one. linuxacademy.com slash unplugged. But, because we've been talking about Linux Academy for a while now, lots of JB members in their community, lots of Jupyter Colony members up
Starting point is 01:12:44 in that community, So you're hanging out with a great group of friends that help give you that sort of confidence boost when you need it or celebrate when you've got some breakthrough. It's really cool.
Starting point is 01:12:53 Linuxacademy.com slash unplugged and a big thank you to Linux Academy for sponsoring the Unplugged program and congrats on the new app and all of the new updates. You guys are kicking it.
Starting point is 01:13:02 And Anthony was down at scale. I didn't get a chance to say hi to him, but he was down at scale, so he might have got a chance to say hi. They really are community members. I loves it. Yeah, they're huge enthusiasts. It's really cool.
Starting point is 01:13:11 So AMD has got something hot for us. GPU Open. GPU Open is composed of two areas, games and CGI for games, graphics, and content creation. Holy moly, you guys. Yeah, they're the first to provide code, they say, and documentation, allowing PC developers to exert more control over the GPU. But that's the first part of it.
Starting point is 01:13:32 The second part of it is a commitment to open source software. The game and graphics development community is an active hub of enthusiastic individuals who believe in the value of sharing knowledge. Full and flexible access to the source of tools, libraries, and effects is a key pillar of the GPU open philosophy. So it's not just talking to the driver.
Starting point is 01:13:49 It's art assets. It's all kinds of stuff. Documentation. The fancy libraries you need to take advantage of their sweet, sweet hardware. So this is being put on by AMD, I understand. Is that your understanding as well? Every single year. Here's where I'm at with this.
Starting point is 01:14:06 I'm getting real sick and tired of this crap. I'm getting real bitter, and I'm becoming a little skeptical. Every year I sit here and I'm reading you stories about how AMD is going to revolutionize their open source graphics driver, how they're going to decouple this, how they're going to have user space that, kernel space that, how they're going to have user space that, kernel space that, how they're going to have initiative this, protocol that. And every single year, I feel like I'm just reading a different version of this story.
Starting point is 01:14:31 And this is the coolest version yet that gets me just as excited as ever. And by the end of the day, what the hell is actually going on, Wes? What's going on here? Unfortunately, I think we're still in the wait and see. I'm glad they've launched this website. They've had code up on GitHub for a little while. But until... We're still waiting for Vulkan.
Starting point is 01:14:52 We're still waiting for all the AMD GPU stuff to land in the kernel and be deployed by distributions. I know I piss off all of the AMD fans when I say this, but I'm just not impressed. I love all of the things they're saying, and every time they say them, I love them every single time. And then I just – I don't – I guess what it feels like to me right now is before the last idea ever even sees code, they got a whole new idea that's even better than the last idea. Right. We had Mantle, and now, well, now they're supporting Vulkan, which is good, but it's still like... And I feel like
Starting point is 01:15:26 for three years I've been hearing about how they're going to split the graphics drivers up, and it's going to be super awesome, and you can just use the open source driver, and if you want a few more features, you go get this binary blob in user space, and you're good to go. To be fair, they never actually claimed that Mantle was coming to Linux. They even were asked specifically, and they just basically
Starting point is 01:15:42 dismissed it, saying that if people wanted it, then maybe they'd consider it. But now they're actually saying that since they're doing open source, it's actually going to be coming. And I think it's great. You know, like what they're saying is great. And I'm optimistic. But you know, it's been 10 years since they were reasonably usable in Linux. So at this point, I'm still not going to buy their stuff. Yeah, it's hard to come back from underperforming to such a level. Here's why it's a double burn for me, and this really upsets me. So not only are they saying crap that I like and want,
Starting point is 01:16:11 and they're not delivering as far as I can estimate, at least in any material way that actually matters at all. But at the same time, it's like, hey, everybody, and this is something the Windows users, like the savvy ones, are starting to give Linux users a hard time about. Hey, come to the Linux desktop, the land of free and open source choice where you have all the great choices in the world. Oh, except for your graphics card if you want any performance at all, use NVIDIA. Replace most of your weird X stack with this.
Starting point is 01:16:35 So like we have one video card manufacturer that makes – I mean like really, where is the choice? You can use Intel and have a subpar experience. You can use NVIDIA or you can use AMD. And in my testing, the NVIDIA is by far and really the only easy one-click solution by most distros for end users to implement and get great graphics performance. We have one choice if you're a regular end user in Linux land, and it's NVIDIA. There's no come to the land of multiple choice except for why here you only have one choice. And AMD has done nothing in all this time, nothing to change this
Starting point is 01:17:09 situation. A lot of good talk. I get all hot and bothered. They kind of just have followed NVIDIA's track, but not done it as well. Wimpy, what do you think? You think the Iris graphics is finally there? You think we're finally, finally there with the 6100?
Starting point is 01:17:27 I'm not the biggest gamer, but I have embraced Steam in the last few months, and my knuck with Iris 6100 plays all the games I have, and I've got most of the... I don't know if I have a 5600 machine. I don't know if I have one. I haven't tried that one. And I'm not just running the games but running the games at um quad hd so just to be clear this is not 4k quad hd is
Starting point is 01:17:53 uh 1440p that's nice that's not william i'm curious to see what you think about this so i think amd has been in the state where they just have to announce paper launches for things. And so they're like, we have this great idea. Here it is. But they're not going to have that thing materialized for years. Like, oh, we've made an initial commit and we have a plan. Here's this thing we're launching. But it's not going to launch for a couple of years until we get down the road, until we have hardware support, until we have all these things, until we've actually written the software.
Starting point is 01:18:22 So they're like, don't abandon us. Don't abandon us. Right. things until we've actually written the software. So like, don't abandon us. Don't abandon us. Right. They don't want you to abandon them because they're kind of falling behind and they're trying to show all these paper releases that just aren't there yet.
Starting point is 01:18:30 And I think that's the state we're in. I hope we get there and I think we will get there eventually. It's just going to take time. So do you think the way to look at GPU open is more about, it's a piece to the overall strategy. So an open source driver is a piece to that, but also a piece to that is giving developers open resources to take advantage of to make great games. Like it's part of the overall strategy, but it's just part of it and we're just waiting around. That's really what's going on here, isn't it?
Starting point is 01:18:58 I mean it's even like the splitting of the GPU driver. It's part of the strategy. driver. It's part of the strategy. They're going to try and make all the kernel space stuff open and integrate it into the mainline kernel and then have a bunch of user space components that they can change out depending on whether you want proprietary features or not. Sounds so nice. And they're just, we're slowly getting there. Like, they just started committing this, I want
Starting point is 01:19:14 to say, like, five kernel versions back and we're finally getting to somewhere where it's usable. Yeah, they have at least dumped some code into the kernel, which is But they announced it way back when. Yeah, that's where I'm kind of like, oh, come on already. But I like the idea of open source resources, graphic assets, all that kind of stuff for developers. That's really cool.
Starting point is 01:19:32 We'll see if they can get their foot in the door with, like, scientific stuff. If OpenCL can really compete with, you know, video stuff there. And they're also distracted with all their side projects. Like, they're building the A1100 ARM chips, and they've got to get Xen out the door, and they've got to get the new GPU architecture done. Like, they've got all these things that they're kind of... Even the A1100, that was a huge paper release. Like, they talked about this three years ago as being ready in a year,
Starting point is 01:19:54 and it still isn't even shipping. Like, we're just getting there now, hopefully. So, we'll see. You know, I've talked about this before, but you look at the next three years for Linux, we have never had more change coming ever. So you have, obviously, we've talked about today Wayland coming. You have Vulkan coming, right? You have the continuation of evolution of SystemD and Bus1 or KDBus, whatever it's going to be.
Starting point is 01:20:24 That's coming. systemd and bus1 or kdbus, whatever it's going to be, that's coming. And all of these transitions are going to be some of the biggest transitions we have ever seen in the desktop, ever. Like a lot of times we see things that are really huge on the cloud and server, but this is going to be huge. And Wimpy, there's another big one I didn't even mention coming, isn't there? Yeah, with ZFS, I think it's going to really gain traction in the Linux world over the next 12 months, 18 months.
Starting point is 01:20:48 We'll all be running ZFS on root machines with Wayland for three years on open source AMD graphics. It'll be a glorious future. In systemd containers. Yeah, right, exactly. And spawn, man. Oh, whatever you're drinking wears I want a pint. You know what? We'll just end it right there.
Starting point is 01:21:05 That's a good way to wrap it up on the Unplugged show. It is going to be a couple of crazy years, and guess what? We're going to be talking about it. Stay tuned. Every single annoying minutiae along the way. We'll be discussing right here on your talk show, Linux Unplugged. We'd love to have you join us. Don't forget, we do this show on Tuesdays.
Starting point is 01:21:20 Go over to jubilabroadcasting.com slash calendar to get the live time. JBLive.tv is where you watch it. LinuxActionShow.reddit.com is where you go to submit content and stories. And you heard our virtual log. You can participate in that. You just need the Mumble software, open source software. Go to our IRC room. You can get the info on how to join us.
Starting point is 01:21:36 We'd love to have you here on the Unplugged program. If you can't make it, the subreddit's just great. All right, thanks for being here. See you right back here next Tuesday. so so I kind of feel like I'm going to get some crap for calling out the Linux Foundation on that news outlet thing. But that is something that they do that really bothers me. Yeah. Because it feels really dishonest. And it's basically, you know, you've got to be of a certain contribution level, it seems.
Starting point is 01:22:43 I can't exactly tell what it is. And you have to have writing staff. And if you meet those qualifications, you get to publish through some fairly well-established news outlets. And then on top of that, because they're established enough, all of the news syndication sites pick up those stories. And then it just becomes part of the discussion. And it feels like they get background cred in the community because of the Linux Foundation name on the front, right? Even if the company at play maybe uses it for their end but isn't a good community player. It's not something I've brought up before a lot because I feel like there's going to be a certain amount of backlash because I value my relationship with the Linux Foundation.
Starting point is 01:23:19 Because I think, in other words, in other realms, they do a lot of good. And I've worked with them in several projects before and they've been fruitful. And I enjoyed that. And also, you know, I like to be able to speak to the people that they write the paychecks to. But at the end of the day, like that is a concern of mine that I have. So it's a real tight line for me to walk there. But I kind of feel like I have to say it's something that bothers me. And it doesn't mean that they're bad as a whole.
Starting point is 01:23:44 It just means this is an aspect that happens that I don't quite understand. Maybe I'm wrong about, but to me, I would like to know more information about it. And it doesn't preclude the fact that they also contribute to open source projects when they can, that they contribute to people that are making incredible changes in the Linux
Starting point is 01:24:00 kernel. It doesn't take away from any of that. I hope I don't get too much crap for it, but I'm probably going to get some crap. Well, you always get crap. Have you been to the internet before? I don't know, but that's all that's true. I do that. It's a good point.
Starting point is 01:24:16 I keep trying to think of what's the worst case Slack scenario because I'm starting to slide, Wes. I'm sliding into Slack. I love that they have even if it's just Chromium, they have the Linux dev files. I've enjoyed that. I think it's slide, Wes. I'm sliding into Slack. And it's very, I mean, I've had a great, I love that they have, I mean, even if it's just Chromium, they have the Linux dev files. I've enjoyed that. I think it's Sudclutter. I can't remember what the name of it is that I'm using on the Linux desktop for a dedicated Slack client.
Starting point is 01:24:34 And, you know, their iOS client is great. Android, no complaints there really either. But, I mean, even we have a couple channels just for, like, individual projects. And on some of them, we've gone past 10,000 messages. Yeah. And then the archive starts to go away. And it's like you start depending, especially on things like where you're sharing information. You're like, oh, well, just pass there.
Starting point is 01:24:53 I know there was some information I wanted, and I put it in this channel for use. And so we've asked if we're trying to see if – not yet. So we haven't been paying. We're seeing about paying. The cost is serious. Right. So I saw there was a recent thread on Reddit about Mattermost. Yeah, yeah.
Starting point is 01:25:08 I have not actually tried it. I know I should, huh? The thing is. And then Rocket Chat, I guess. The thing that Mattermost isn't going to deliver for me right now, at least, is it takes 30 seconds almost to set up a new Slack. Yep, it's super easy. It's great. And if I'm hosting it myself, I just, I don't really have time for this right now.
Starting point is 01:25:28 I just need problems solved. I don't want to create more problems down the road. But here's what I'm truly, truly worried about. And I don't know exactly where you go to find it. I'm trying to figure out. Yeah, so here's an example. If I want to upgrade to standard edition, $880 per year is what it would cost. Jupyter Broadcasting right now.
Starting point is 01:25:49 And that's just because we only have 11 users in our Slack. I think for us it was somewhere in the couple grand range. Yeah, or eight per user per month. That's a little more swallowable. You'd be sending invoices out to crew members. So then it goes back to, well, okay, it's kind of worth looking at Mattermost, but it is it has become a critical tool, and the thing the other... Slack does it well.
Starting point is 01:26:09 And the other problem is, a lot of people now have Slack accounts. So you can... They already have the client on their phone. Yeah. Yeah. They already know how to use it too, and some people are already kind of like Slack clever, and they're like, yeah. I like that one of them, I don't remember who was matter most or
Starting point is 01:26:25 rocket chat i think had better markdown support slack has like partial but yeah markdown support would be killer because then we could actually cut and paste stuff right into show notes yeah yeah somebody should set up a matter most for us and let us try it out maybe we need like a matter most slack bridge well i would i would be i would also like to know if people know of a hosted matter most solution but you can just pay a reasonable amount for. Yeah, because I just am not in a position to manage more stuff. If I have free time right now, I want to spend it on other projects right now. I don't want to spend my time on that.
Starting point is 01:26:54 So I would really like to get a recommendation. I wonder if there's also, just for me, maybe I can just set up the IRC bridge and then have an IRC program that saves all my history, archives it that way, keep the free model. So when I think of hosting Mattermost, my mind immediately goes to, well, I'm going to spin up a DigitalOcean droplet. And I'm going to register a domain. And I'm going to create user accounts. And then I'm going to convince all of the JB people to switch over from Slack to this new system, and we're going to have to do a clean break of our history.
Starting point is 01:27:30 And then when we fill up space or we want more users or whatever, it's always going to be on me to do it. And just I'm not digging that idea. That's a big workbook. And you're not going to want to troubleshoot it right before the show. Then again, I don't feel like spending a grand a year for essentially fancy IRC. Right. When you have the technical capability, it's just not maybe the time or will.
Starting point is 01:27:50 It's a real son-of-a-bitch problem. I almost wish I was ignorant and just had to pay. Right. Because then my decision is made. Fine. Yeah. Bottom line. Too smart for your own good, Chris.
Starting point is 01:27:59 I guess that is kind of a thing. I don't know.

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