LINUX Unplugged - Episode 146: Snap, Flaps & Package Drops | LUP 146

Episode Date: May 25, 2016

Package once, run anywhere. It’s always almost here, just around the corner, in the near future. But are we finally about to nail it? We look at Flatpack, Snaps, AppImage, ask what stands out from the pack & which will fall flat.Plus why you're going to want to wait on that systemd upgrade, funding projects with a rocky past, the big thing about Mycroft no one is talking about & we try out Mycroft on the desktop.

Holy smokes, Wes, look alive. It's perfect timing for Linux Unplugged today. We are going to be getting into a conversation around different methods of crowdfunding open source projects. And one of the titans of Kickstarter has launched their brand new Kickstarter project today. They're not struggling, though, Wes. They have already raised, of a goal of a million, four million. Oh, boy. 22,000 backers with 36 days left to go. They're only a few hours into this thing.

It's the new Pebble 2, Time 2, and the Pebble Core. Hey Kickstarter, we're Pebble. Hey there. In 2012 we came to you with an idea called a smartwatch. All right. Your incredible support helped Pebble smash Kickstarter records not once, but twice, and ushered in a revolution in wearable technology. OMG, OMG, OMG. Today, we've come home to Kickstarter to push these boundaries even further. That's how we go. Introducing Pebble 2, a sporty, ultra-affordable smartwatch with a built-in heart rate monitor.

All right. Time 2, a premium smartwatch for the active professional. And Pebble Core, an entirely new device for runners that connects to your cellular network and fits in the palm of your hand. Hey, gang, it's time to write the next chapter in wearables. Am I part of the gang? I want to be in the gang. Yeah, we're in the gang, dude. Pebble 2 is our latest smartwatch, now with built-in activity tracking. So they got the new watch.

Now, hold on, because this isn't the one you're interested in. But it's neat that it has real-time heart rate all the time. It's waterproof. It does microphone, so you can do dictation. That's all neat. But oh, boy. And with a single click, Pebble 2 is an all-around amazing smartwatch. And starting at just $99,

it's the most affordable smartwatch ever. Alright, so that's the Pebble 2. But now... Today, we're excited to announce Time 2. Oh! Our all new premium full-color smartwatch. What? Machined from marine-grade stainless steel in gold, black, or silver, Time 2 introduces

a crisp new color e-paper display that's 53% larger than the original and packs twice the text on screen, keeping you up to date at a glance. Time 2's battery lasts up to 10 whole days on a single charge. Now that is amazing. 10 days? Wow.

And like Pebble 2, it has a mic, heart rate monitor, and is water resistant to 30 meters. Both watches also feature an updated version of Pebble Health. Now you can tell Pebble your activity and fitness goals, and it sets targets that automatically adjust based on your performance. Now they also have the new Pebble Core, which is basically just a voice-activated push-button little activity tracker. Pebble's getting big into fitness. Huge into fitness. Network.

So you could leave your phone at home. Yeah. Activity started. I like that. Core streams music from Spotify to keep you motivated. So that's kind of a neat thing. So we're going to be talking about this today. And not necessarily the Pebble, but I think it's really interesting timing for some of

the subjects we're getting into, Wes. Are you ready to get started? Oh, yeah. This is Linux Unplugged, episode 146, for May 24th, 2016. Oh, welcome to Linux Unplugged, your weekly Linux talk show that's skipping pebbles into the body of water that is our mumble room. My name is Chris. My name is Wes. Was that profound, Wes?

I'm not going to pretend that made sense, but let's just keep going. The body of water. I also liked Rikai's Fighting the Windows 10 Upgrade Menace. Oh, much better. Yeah, stay tuned for the post-show for more on that. Coming up on today's episode of the Unplugged program, we are going to talk a little bit about funding open source projects, but in a new light, in something we've never really done before,

in projects that have a bit of a name and a bit of a reputation, good and bad. We're going to start with the Mycroft project today, which is delivering some actual software, which you have loaded there and Ham Radio's been trying out. We're also going to talk about Purism. They have a new initiative, a new piece of hardware. They claim it is the Microsoft Surface for those of you who respect your privacy and freedom. Big promises.

But can we rely on Purism to deliver a product like this when you could argue they haven't even mastered the last product they launched? As you can imagine, I have thoughts on this topic. So we'll be discussing that coming up in the show. But before all of that, Wes, before all of that, we have some great open source project updates. How did you get all these links this week? Like, this was a Wes blowout.

They're just falling out of the sky. You were blowing it out, this. You're just blowing it out, Wes. You're blowing it out. Speaking of blowing it out, you were blowing it out with the beer, too. Well, hopefully you won't be blowing it out. It's a delicious beer, and I... We have to restrain ourselves, Chris. Once again, you have managed to bring a beer into the Unplugged program.

It is from a local brewery that I've never heard of. Sneaking it in under your radar. Copper Donkey. Copper Donkey from the No Lee, I think is how you say it. No lie. Probably. Probably. It's L-I.

L-I. I don't know. It is. Oh, it's a good beer, though. It's kind of new. It's from a new brewery. They launched just a year ago. And it is also fairly strong at 8%.

They're doing a good job already. So Wes brought us a couple of pints. So we'll be drinking that on today's program. Drinking along with you. Water, beer, whatever your beverage choice is. Let's bring in that Mumbaroom. Time of property greetings, Mumbaroom. Greetings. Hello.

Greetings. I've never installed Linux. Wow. That is a huge turn. I think I even heard some Richard Stallman in there. That is unbelievable. Oh, you guys. Oh, jeez louise.

Okay, so I want to talk about this one just really quick. Well, there's a plane flying overhead right now. Wes, do you hear that? I do. Our friends from the south, Mr. Bowen. So maybe it's somebody from this new project to come here to talk to us in person because it could be a big deal. You may have heard it before. because it could be a big deal.

You may have heard it before. Formerly known, the artist formerly known as XDG App is now Flapjack with a brand new fancy website at Flap, or Flat Pack, not Flapjack. Although I got to imagine, if you think about it, Flapjack is a good metaphor. I picture stacking individual delicious pancakes on top of each other that don't necessarily connect until I take my delicious butter and syrup and I mash my fork down in between them and then bring them all

together with my fork stab and put them in my mouth. Hence, installing software. I actually think that- This is why Chris is not a software architect. No, but they should just talk to me first because I think if they would talk to me- It does make a great breakfast bar, though. Because they're going for those Ikea easy to pack things, but I'm telling you, pancakes might just play a little better.

Anyways, Flatpak is the future of application distribution. According to them, the days of chasing multiple Linux distributions are over. You hear that playing, Wes? Standalone apps for Linux are here. Self-contained and future-proof. Distributing applications on Linux is a pain.

Different distributions. Different distros. Multiple versions. Each with their own versions of libraries. But Flatpak is here to change all of that. It's cross-platform, it's stable, and it's secure. So, you know, another thing you've heard of, another way, so XEG apps,

you've also probably heard this referred to as sandbox apps, to make it possible for third parties to distribute applications. We talked with someone from the GNOME Project and Linux Action Show about this in our LinuxFast Northwest coverage. I don't know, Wes. They have a demo here. I think they're really close to shipping it.

It almost feels like it's now in that spot where is anybody going to ever adopt this? Yeah, that's what's going to matter here. We have that. We have an app image. Mumbler, any thoughts on anyone ever adopt this? Yeah, that's what's going to matter here. We have that. We have an app image. Mumbler, any thoughts on anyone ever adopting this? Will it actually take off? Will upstream packages embrace this? I think GNOME are going to embrace it quite heavily.

I mean, they're the ones really pushing this. It's their runtime that's doing all the GNOME, the Flatpak stuff right now. It's their runtime that's doing all the GNOME Flatpak stuff right now. The sticking point for me is still the inefficiency of it. Like, I don't want to have 20 copies of the GNOME runtime for my 20 different Flatpak apps. Yeah, do you see a way around that, though, and trying to accomplish what they're accomplishing? I don't, but I think the use case of where they're trying to accomplish it, it might be a case of just needing that niche of... It's the same niche that's kind of taken out by rolling releases,

so if I kind of think with my tumbleweed hat, it's like, yeah, I don't care. If I think with my leap hat on, though, yeah, I can see us bundling up Flatback apps and pushing out shinier new versions of GNOME apps when previously that would be like a complete and utter no-no. Yeah. They have right now on their page, they have nightly builds of GIMP, Inkscape, Darktable, MyPaint, and Scribulous, and they're working on stable builds of the GNOME core applications.

Hey. The other thing we have to keep in mind is at the same time this is happening, Canonical has their own solution, which is Snap Packages, which is sort of a similar solution for their specific platform. And I wonder if that's going to be

sort of a duplication of effort on some levels. For example, if the GNOME desktop could be bundled up as a Snap Package, then what about also bundling up as a Flatpak? Is who's going to do that work? Right.

I think Flatpak has way more going for it because they're trying to be cross-distro because they're working with all these other projects, other distros. Then, you know, it's known. They don't just think about themselves. Whereas Ubuntu... I agree.

Snap's going to work fine on Ubuntu, but is it going to work anywhere else? But I think if you – I see – I would tend to agree with you except if you look at the way history has played out when it comes to just packaging up installation packages for distributions. You see very much like in terms of people will go out of their way to package up for Ubuntu, and in a lot of cases, just Ubuntu. Yeah, that's true. And that feels like the same thing. Maybe they're just going to focus on Snap packages instead of Flatpaks. I look at, you know, I look at there's projects out there

that we are all familiar with that will soon be repackaged individual components in the entire desktop as Snap packages they're working on it right now and i don't think they're working on flat packs that's the thing is the projects i'm thinking of i already know are working on snap versions and i don't know they're working on anything else but doesn't that kind of like erode the whole cross distro you know appeal i mean the appeal of a flat pack is you do it once and it will work on

every distro plus Ubuntu. Yeah, I agree. Whereas if you apply the same logic to snap packages, right now the only people interested in snap packages are Ubuntu. You might as well just do Ubuntu Deb. I completely agree. I just worry that

the problem is the people that are making these decisions are idiots or something. I don't know why. I mean today I couldn't tell you why so many of them only package for Ubuntu. I mean I could. It's market share related but that might just be what pushes them to use Snap packages. I don't know. It's probably – you're right. Because Flatpak includes Ubuntu, you hope that gives it the nudge ahead that just means people will, and if they can get behind

the, if they can get Mindshare out there. That's the other issue. Canonical has some momentum behind Mindshare already and just the ability to promote a little bit better as a company that has resources to do so and avenues to do so. And if they can have a good, you know, if they can be like, hey, look, have the shiny apps user

base that's already going to install 16.04, then they might have a good inroad to actually get people using it. You can try it out right now, though. It's out there. So I don't know. I really want to talk about today just so that we sort of have Flatpak now on our radar instead of XDG app. I guess it would probably depend, too, like how easy is it to create one or the other? Yeah.

How well will they integrate into different build tools or build chains that people are already using that right now might be worth playing you'd be like hey mike just target this and go i actually like the idea of flatback and snaps just because i don't have to worry about you know whenever i update my system or right now that i'm on 1510 and like 20 apps that I want to try, I can't even get yet. I agree. I think it makes the, I think it makes long-term support and enterprise distros way more viable

too. If you can get more modern applications and have a nice stable base, I think that's going to be really sweet. What do you, what do you think, Wes? So the chat room is asking, why not, why not app image? Why are we, why are we not just app images already a thing? There's already project shipping with AppImages. Why aren't we just using AppImage, Wes?

It seems like it's going to be the same thing. It's going to come back to adoption. And there are a few people, like Subsurface, obviously thinks it's great. And I don't know. I haven't made an app, so I guess it would come back to, like, how easy is it to integrate into existing build systems?

How hard is it to just go from packaging for distros already and having it ship in one of these packages? If Ubuntu provides a really good thing where, hey, you're making a DAB already, bam, now you have your Snap package, then that would be really nice if it's harder to make a Flatpak or an app image. App image seems like it's pretty simple. I haven't looked too much into here installing a runtime, et cetera, but I'd be interested to see a comparison.

They have their own build kit, too. It's not bad at all. And AppImage is really interesting because when you first run it, you have to manually give it permission to execute. But once you launch it, it asks, do you want to put it in your menus? So it, like, automatically does that. So that's pretty cool. But maybe it's the excuse excuse or that the complaint that everyone goes against canonical is like not developed here maybe gnome is doing the exact same thing and for

some reason people aren't mentioning that yeah and it's a shame we don't have something like the like what we're they're working on like on container standards you know some sort of here we're going to have static static images keeping contained at all actually well well just in the same way of having some sort of standard for if we're going to do – if we're going to have less dynamic linking, et cetera, in our – in future ways that we're shipping software, it would be cool if we had some sort of underlying target so that we could have – here's a snap. We can convert it to a flatline. Right. Yeah, for sure. With tools like Alien or whatever.

I think it's two things. I think it's two things. I think it's two things. To answer the core question, why not AppImage right now, I think the first thing is that the GNOME guys and gals have been working on this for years. If you recall back, I covered this story as GNOME OS in a sense years ago. They had been working on different iterations of this crazy idea of applications that can move around. And it's only really once they kind of let it die off, and it was only really once since containers and sandboxing and all these kinds of different things like Wayland and namespaces all started to become available options that we could actually ship one day. They got serious about it again. And a core component of it for them, this I believe is the second part, is sandboxing.

They believe sandboxing fundamentally. And I've linked it in their wiki why they believe this. And they don't want to use sandboxing for the reasons that you traditionally think of, like prevent you from getting access to things on your system. It is legitimately to isolate the application, to move it around, and to protect the overall system. And that's a core functionality for them. And they see it not just core to security, but core to how these things are portable to begin with. And I think AppImage is a great solution. I personally

am happy to download an AppImage thing. It just really hasn't been an issue for me. Yeah, exactly. AppImage has actually been around for a while, too, because they were originally the portable apps project. It's a really cool idea, but as far as

the containerization and the sandboxing, they don't really have any of that. So I guess in a way they're kind of improving the concept with the Flatpak. Also, Flatpak is a cooler name. Yeah, way better. Yeah, they are doing a better job with the branding. So hopefully that will help people start shipping. And I think the other thing that just maybe just to finish up the Mindshare thing is I think this is another example of Mindshare where Mindshare makes a difference.

And AppImage has gotten traction among some of us, but it just really hasn't gotten the Mindshare thing is – I think this is another example of Mindshare where Mindshare makes a difference and AppImage has gotten traction among some of us, but it just really hasn't gotten the Mindshare. And part of that is – and this is the part we just have a hard time connecting the dots with is there are people from the GNOME project that are going out to technology conferences like Linux Plumbers Conference and Guadec and Fedora's – and all the different conferences. And they are promoting this idea. They are talking about this idea. They are engaging with people about this idea in a way that is probably at a higher intensity than the AppImage project. Well, it kind of makes it feel like if you're targeting our platform, here's our solution for this.

Rather, AppImage feels a little bit like you're an independent developer with a one-off app. Here you go. You can package it up with us. Totally. Totally nailed that. I think that's a big way about it. That's a big – you have to remember that's how the GNOME project thinks.

Right. And that's a big part of it. Also, I would say, last but not least, I think it just underscores how important the in-person advocation and meetings and discussions are to really move some of these important technologies. Make it feel real. Yeah, to move them through an open source community where everybody kind of has to sign off and implement in all the different fiefdoms.

And that's something I think that the GNOME project's just better at. Speaking of that exact thing, SystemD. SystemD has a big update, version 2.3.0. When's the last time we even mentioned SystemD on this show? It's been a while. Yeah, we're bringing it up because let's not kid ourselves. In terms of how long these things not kid ourselves, in terms of how long these things have been around, still kind of an early project. And this is a big update.

A lot of things are changing. And it's one of those that they recommend themselves. The project recommends that even the more aggressive distributions keep this one in testing for extra longer. Did you see that in there? I did see that. Yeah. So there's a bunch of stuff like DNSSEC being turned on by default, etc., etc., etc. But I wanted to jump right down to the one you're the most excited about. This, because I get it on some level,

but I think you have a bigger reason why you like it. And essentially what it is, is the systemd networking stuff will now allow a unique identifier to be sent in a DHCP request. And you can configure it for each system in the.network file managed by systemd networking or networkd. And they'll have different

like DUIDs and DUID raw data and IAID options. And I would guess this would be... Well, I'm guessing so that when you're spinning up a bunch of machines, you know what machine it is somehow. Why not just use MAC addresses, etc.? It illuminates.

You do have control over the MAC address, but cetera? It illuminates. It's mostly that. So you do have control over the MAC address, but with IPv6, and, like, if you're using DHCPv6, you can no longer, for a lot of systems, use a MAC address. They use something, the DUID, device unique identifier, or something like that, which is a longer string of hex characters

in a similar fashion, you know, like any kind of UUID. But that is sent to identify a device. So this adds support. I've enjoyed systemd networkd. It's not going to do everything, but for servers or especially containers where you probably already have systemd. Containers for sure, right? And you just, you can make like a two line file to enable DHCP on all your interfaces.

So when you're spinning up a new container, bam, you know, you have addresses. And then this just lets you add, which I've been looking forward to do for when I want to, I have some containers where I just like, they're going to be ephemeral. I just want them to spin up, get an address, do something and disappear. Some like I'm going to have more permanent and maybe they need static IP addresses

or I'm going to have them in DNS or something like that. So this will let me easily just add a line where you can change that identifier and you can change like inner space specific or for the whole system and you can change the DHCP. You can change it like, inner space specific or for the whole system, and you can change the DHCP. You can change it to have send a unique identifier instead of the MAC address. So it'll just make it a lot easier,

and then your DHCP server will just pick them right up, give them the address that they want. Also a bunch of stuff changed with systemd, lognd in this release, too. So that user stuff is pretty big. Yeah, what is it? So they're trying to solve a problem where when your user session is over, now all of your programs will be terminated.

Right. So if you have a TMUX running, it will be terminated. So that's one of the big changes that they're stressing here that people will be looking out for. That was it, yeah. And I think in some regards, there'll be a point in time where we just think that's obvious that it should be the default behavior, but it's a big transition before it lands. It is a huge transition now. And it, you know, it just kind of makes sense. It does fit if you adopt what they suggest and you, you know, use it, system to run to run it in the right scope and in the right user scope and everything, then, then yeah, you can account for it well and you can control its resources, et cetera. And probably you'll have, you know, there'll be a lot of stuff where you're going to set up like a user level service for it anyway, so it won't matter. Yeah. And that is definitely the, that's going to just definitely make sure you do set that up that way, which is just best practice anyways. Right.

There are, I have seen way too many people where you're like, oh, I'm just going to, yeah, it works. I tested it out. I run it in a TMUX session. It works. And then they never, they never properly demonize it. And you're like. Yeah. So watch out for that one.

And we have a link in the show notes with more info. Anything else jump out at you? Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of interesting stuff. It depends on how you feel about SystemD, but they keep plugging along. Yeah, they do. So the full release notes are in there. All right, then watch yourself.

We got a little Valve update. Kind of, sort of. Not directly a Valve update. Not directly. It's just, let's see. Where's my, here it is. Oh, yeah. Oh, I got it right here.

My Steam controller. I bought the Steam controller thinking this is going to become the de facto Linux controller. This is the one you're going to use. You're going to try to erase the sun. That's what you'll be using. Yeah. No more Xbox 360. It's going to be this guy.

And I think. No go? No. Well, the big problem was is it's been so directly attached to Steam that the extra hassle of having to open up, even if I want to just play a game I installed from a repo, having to open up Steam and configure and all that kind of stuff, it was a real bummer for me.

So I want to introduce you to SCController. Man, I love open source. Look at this thing. This looks well done. Yeah, it's a GTK UI for configuring your Steam controller, setting up all the buttons, what they do, mapping all of the different stuff. It allows you to configure it completely

without ever launching Steam. Profiles, so you can switch between games. It's got stick pads and gyroscope input, haptic feedback support, macros, rapid fire mode shift, and you can also enable emulation for the Xbox 360 For mouse Wow

Jackpad and balls And keyboards and all that Yeah Maybe some Maybe next week We'll have to give that a go Maybe Maybe yeah

Because it was just Pretty Just posted over Gaming on Linux.com And I'm really impressed By this When was the last time You played with that bad boy

Hmm Well at least Two machines ago Right Yeah because I've had Some machines in and out here Because we've been moving hardware around. Yeah, so there you go.

I think that's really neat. And it's posted up on GitHub. We have a link in the show notes. Yeah, that's interesting. That's a good... Liam says at the bottom of his post that Valve should really hire this guy to speed up uncoupling the Steam controller from big picture. Yeah, there you go. Yeah.

Have you tried it? Do you want to manhandle it there? You want to... Ooh. Yeah, that's nice, right? you want to manhandle it there? You want to? Ooh. Yeah. That's nice, right? It's smooth. That's nice.

That's nice. Okay. So just a super quick little heads up for you out there that are on Fedora and want GUIs for all the things. Yum Extender is a GUI for managing, you guessed it, Yum and DNF. Really DNF now. It's a front-end graphical interface for DNF. You can check it out.

We have a link in the show notes. It's called Yum Extender. And Yum Extender, powered by DNF now. It's a front-end graphical interface for DNF. You can check it out. We have a link in the show notes called YUM Extender and YUM Extender powered by DNF. Man, between that and that SystemD. I know. What can't you manage with GUI and Linux? That's right. That was the thing. That SystemD manager works pretty well. Looks pretty sweet, yeah. We talked about that in this week's Linux Action

Show if you guys haven't seen that. Okay, so before we jump any further, we have a lot still to cover in the updates. We probably need to pick up the pace. We probably need to shake, shake it off like Mariah Carey. So first, let's talk about Ting, because we've got to get legit here for a second. We've got to get real. It is mobile that makes sense.

No more messing around with stupid guesses on how many minutes you might use or megabytes or messages. It's just pay for what you use over at Ting. They've got no contracts, no determination fee. $6. That's it. $6 is all you pay for what you use over it, Ting. They got no contracts, no determination fee. $6.00. That's it. $6.00 is all you pay for the line. Girl, are you hearing that? Whoa. $6.00. Plus, you got your Uncle Sam taxes

because Uncle Sam loves his cut. You got to pay for that. It's such a good deal. He needs something. You got to pay for all the important federal programs somehow. So Ting's got to pay the taxes. So, alright. So it's $6 taxes and then just what you use. You're on Wi-Fi? You're not paying for nothing.

You want to get updates from your Android phone? Ting don't care. Ting is honey badger. They don't care. They don't care. They don't care. You can get updates. Go to right now. You ready? Linux.ting.com Linux.ting.com. That's where you go. You get yourself a little savings like 25 bones? Linux.ting.com. Linux.ting.com. That's where you go.

You get yourself a little savings, like 25 bones. Linux.ting.com. You support this show. If you've got a compatible device, and you just might, because they've got CDMA and GSM, you'll get credit on your account. I'm not playing. You get credit. It's probably going to pay for more than your first month because that's how freaking inexpensive

Ting is. All right. So you get the credit on the account. Then you're so happy with it, you go do a little evangelizing. Now, I'm not telling you not to send people to linux.ting.com because that would seriously help out our show if you spread that around. But I'm just saying, if you're a Ting customer, they got a referral program. Yeah.

They got a referral program. A referral program. They got a referral program. What kind of program is that? It's a referral program. Yeah, yeah. They got a referral program. A referral program. They got a referral program. What kind of program is that? It's a referral program. And if you get people to switch over to Ting, you get a little something, something. And the reason why I don't want to say too much is because it's, I think it's a better deal than I can get you.

But you just get started by going to linux.ting.com. Just go right there and check out your prices. They got early termination relief programs. If you got stuck on one of them duopoly contracts like a sucker. Never again. I was there. I was there. I feel you. Iopoly contracts like a sucker. Never again. I was there. I was there. I feel you.

I was there. I'm not there again. No, no. I have moved on. I have seen the light. Ting, ting. Linux.ting.com. It's different.

Ting keeps rates simple. We don't make you pick a plan. Instead, you just use your phone as you normally would. How much you use determines how much you pay each month. You can have as many devices as you want on one account. That's good, because when you use more, you pay less per minute, message, or megabyte of data. Your usage, plus $6 per active device on your account, plus taxes, is your monthly bill. Simple.

That's what we mean when we say... All right! Mobile. That makes sense. I like this one, too. They got a good post up there by Luke about data caps and about what a SOB they are when you're trying to cut the cord. They got a great blog, too.

You can go read it. Just start by going to Linux.ting.com. Linux.ting.com and thanks for sponsoring the Unplugged program. All right. Roll up your sleeves. LibreOffice is getting to work in the Italian army. Following the announcement made last year, the Italian army has moved forward with its plans to replace Microsoft Office with LibreOffice.

So far, the army has tested its plan across 5,000 workstations. Wow. Without any major problems, too. It's a pretty big rollout. Yeah. Yeah. Now, this is just the beginning, Wes, because once they get through this test program, this is the part I really like. I'm like, okay, that's great.

They're aiming to replace all MS Office by the end of the year. Okay, I've heard this story before. This is the part I like. The Department of Defense is also working on e-training materials to help new users adapt to LibreOffice quickly. And once these materials are complete, the department aims to release them under a copyleft license this will be a great contribution to the LibreOffice project and will increase the adoption of the Office Suite

across Italy now that's a very good point I was just reading Visual Basic turned 25 but VBA right the scripting language in so many of their Office projects that still exists but it's not a major it's used all the time but it's not being heavily developed there's so many of their office projects. That still exists, but it's not a major, like, it's used all the time, but it's not being heavily developed. There's so many things with open source here, like

if the army has some sort of pain point or they need an enhancement of a feature, they can pay developers to do that, and everyone benefits. That's true. That's true. And they don't have to wait for it to be in the interest of the parent company. Yeah, and really, why not, if you're going to use the public's money

to do something like this, why not? Absolutely. Yeah to use the public's money to do something like this? Absolutely. That's a nice thing, too. Okay, so, Wes, you had a little bit of an Arch story. I secretly use Arch Linux. And I thought this was kind of perfect because it's about bringing PPAs to Arch, which, as Popey is a recent Arch switcher, I'm sure this is going to be great for him. He needs something like this to facilitate his workflow. Yeah.

So this is a new tool that would allow you to create basically what they're calling PPAs for Arch, which is kind of – I don't know if I like the branding or the title. But the functionality does seem like something maybe I could use. Think of the Arch PPA like a do-it-yourself PPA personal package archive in the style of PPAs. Think popular Ubuntu's operating system PPAs, but hosted for you on your own terms, either locally or on a server that you have access to, and they allow you to distribute packages to hundreds of thousands of possible Arch users. Arch-PPA developer Ryan McGuire says that he created this utility

to help the Arch Linux personal packaging ecosystem be more secure than it is right now by making your own private repo that doesn't get its audits contributed back upstream and officially recognizing software repositories where anyone with the proper skills can now upload. They can have their own repo. Wow. This is where Arch PPA comes in handy for AUR package maintainers who are looking for an easy way to create a manual repository that they can maintain with the Arch Linux packages they want to distribute in a secure, safe environment. I love it for a LAN-like repository.

Yes, exactly. Or on your VPN or whatever. Nothing about that is like a PPA. I also don't see... Right? And I don't think people are going to suddenly add a bunch of these repositories when there's already the AUR in place. I like the Popey and the Charms says, just as we start moving PPAs to snaps.

But boy, I wish I had a comedy horn for that. That's a good point. That said, I will probably set this up and play with it. Now, what's the use case? Well, mostly things just like maybe like the ZFS module. You just build it once there, and then anyone else can jump right in. I think it's because he hasn't refreshed his machine in a while, so he wants to try some more weird

stuff. Yeah, I was thinking, that's what I was thinking. Chilled Primari, I guess. Chilled Primari says that it's great for the enterprises. Yeah, exactly. People use Arch in the enterprise, though? I mean, some must. is that it's great for the enterprises. Yeah, exactly. You can build your own repo. People use Arch in the enterprise, though?

I mean, some must. Not the AUR. That's kind of crazy. But you could now, I guess. Well, it doesn't have to necessarily even be from the AUR. It's just kind of a way to, like, you can make your own package builds for whatever, your own proprietary software or whatever,

and then this will compile it and host a repo for you so that any other Arch machine can be configured. Maybe you want your own custom kernel that you want to compile on your build host, host it here. What I was thinking is instead of getting it directly from the AUR, before you push it to users, you check out the script. Yeah, it's fine. Then I push it to users.

You control the rates of how much comes from the AUR, how fast. And then you whack out your latest version of your package, you run all your build tests, you run all the rest of your tests, and then you push it to Brad. Yeah, and if it does handle some of the dependency logic for you, that is really nice. You're right.

Yeah, okay. All right, now I'm starting to see it like for, I wish I had more droplets that still used Arch. I only have one left that uses Arch. It's like I just have it as a matter of principle now. You know, I just keep it up because I can. You have to. That's why you, every day, brother.

Now, this was a big story out of Google I.O. We really haven't covered Google I.O. in any of our shows much, except for Coder Radio. But I thought maybe we could talk a little bit about this one, because I think you found this link here, Wes. It gives us a little insight about how they're going to be running Android apps securely on

Chrome OS, and you guessed it. Containers. They're going to be using containers on Chrome OS. Not just containers, though. I'll tell you about it. So this is looking at a development preview, which is you're going to have other versions available in August you guys can get your hands

on, but apparently Chrome OS has taken advantage of containers to get this Android app compatibility. The full Android framework is implemented in a Linux container that isolates Android from the rest of Chrome OS and puts its apps in a sandbox. And here's a little bit of a diagram if you're watching the video version. Yeah, that was a nice diagram. A hardware abstraction layer has been built between Android and Chrome OS that runs native ARM code on Chromebooks using processors with ARM instruction and emulates it on Chromebooks using Intel processors. With SELinux, ah, yes, the secure version of Linux implemented in Android 4.3 back in 2003 on Android and in Chrome OS in 2012,

the Android framework runs in a container that isolates it from other containers and OS modules using Linux functionality called namespaces. Android is granted only specific privileges to view and interact with Chrome OS hardware resources, such as keyboards, cameras, communication stuff. The isolation prevents potentially harmful code within the Android container from interacting with code outside Android containers. So containers in SE Linux is how they're going to get Android apps on Chrome OS. Hopefully that does mean we'll be able to see it ported to other Linuxes at some point.

Yeah, but there's going to be a lot to set up. Yep. Yeah, every time this comes up, I think, would I actually use these apps on Linux? It's also so strange to see, like, using, you know, kernel technology, but in such, like, a like a far removed and heavily packaged and it's just consumer focused right yeah taking some hardcore like server grade stuff very strange i mean it's cool it's neat that's but i guess i would check out the photoshop app if i could try out the photoshop app i might try that and evernote maybe yeah evernote photoshop

And Evernote, maybe. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Evernote, Photoshop. I don't know. I mean, there are some. A few things. Double UPMPs. Sling TV.

Oh, yeah. I would like that, too. I would like that. So I guess there's a few. There's a, yeah, okay. All right. Maybe Google Play Music. Maybe.

Oh, yeah. That's true. Hmm. Hmm. Yeah, look at that GitHub script there. Muhahaha in the chat room links the DigitalOcean Debian to ArchScript. That is a thing. That's also a great script if you want to learn a little bit

how like initramfs and pivotroot and that kind of stuff works. I would definitely recommend checking those out because there's some clever stuff you could do to convert a running system. Yeah, you convert a running Debian box into an Archbox. It's just awesome. It helps now that there's systemd involved. Like if you're ever like in a conversation with someone, like, what can Linux do that Windows can't do, really?

What can, like, because I've got video games, and I've got Exchange and Outlook. What can Linux do? And you're like, well, let me show you this. Right. Come here, son. Sit down. Let me show you something.

Yeah. All right. So anybody in the mobile room have thoughts about Android apps on Chrome OS? I don't sense a lot of interest from you guys. I'm already interested. Okay. It's cool.

It's something that I would like for people who already have a Chromebook because I know people who have them, even though I kind of didn't want them to get one, they get it anyway. And immediately they started complaining about not being able to install stuff and things like that. So we kind of solved their problem. But really other than that, no, I don't care. All right, who else?

I know a couple other people want to speak up. Go ahead. The Play Store has a wide variety of apps. And games. Yes, which is far better than the Linux desktop that's available right now. For example, Bacon Reader is the best Reddit client I've ever used and nothing on Linux can match it.

Those are fighting words right there. But you can't have too many selection of apps, so adding the Android ones is good. I mean, they're not going to be... Theoretically, they could become Linux-based with the container structure, but right now, they're not even released yet, and it's going to be a couple of months

before it even becomes beta, so the likelihood of it becoming to Linux will be a very long time away. I'm kind of curious to hear what Richard thinks just from the perspective of OpenSUSE too. I hear well, Android Play Store has a lot of great apps that Linux Desktop doesn't have

and I guess maybe like this little primitive part in the back of my brain goes, uh-oh, is that a threat? Is that a threat to Linux? Hold on, are we never going to get to the desktop now if something based on Linux has these great proprietary Play Store applications? What do you think, Richard? Is that not really apples and oranges?

Is it a fair threat? Your thoughts? I've seen a few times now of trying to get mobile apps running on the desktop. I even had it running on one of my machines a while back, way in the early Android days when that kind of stuff wasn't too

crazy. It never really appeals because it is one of my machines a while back, like way in like the early Android days when that kind of stuff wasn't too crazy. Um, it, it, it never really appeals cause it is like, it, it isn't the right, you know,

the wrong form factor, the wrong screen. It's like the same thing you already have with like Android phone apps and Android tablet apps. Well, you're going to have what? Android laptop apps. Yeah.

That is going to be funky, huh? Yeah. Embed going to be funky, huh? Yeah. Embedded West, your thoughts for people that might want this over, say, like an iPad, like your real basic user. Yeah, I mean, I think it has a place for people like that who are just, you know, going to use it to check mail or play games. I think that it could be more beneficial than a tablet because it gives you a little bit more flexibility. I just don't think it could ever replace, at least for me, a true operating system where I get file system access and stuff like that. I mean, it is compelling to be able

to buy a $300, a $200, a $180 laptop that has Chrome and Android apps. And I could see people who are already heavily invested. They've got the Pro apps for all the different – Yeah. Oh, sure. I've got my Juice SSH Pro, whatever, all the things. Or if games could actually work and there was like a well-known game that comes out in the Play Store. That's true. Wes, let me ask you this because this move and Instant Apps, which I'm sure you're familiar with,

like you search for something in Google Search and a link comes up. And actually instead of taking you to a website, it launches just the bare minimum app from the Play Store on the fly. Mind-blowing is this move, Android apps coming to Chrome OS, which Chrome OS, the web operating system, the operating system for the web, the open web, Google's open web platform. Google's open web platform. Is this and instant apps a massively anti-web, anti-open web ecosystem move? Is this Google saying, you know what?

You can't really have good app experiences in the browser. If you want good apps, you got to go native. I mean a little bit. I don't know if that's fully their intention, but can definitely see it as the comp has a potential consequence of that i think they are still invested enough in the web that they don't i don't i don't think that sure and all of them especially as the giant organization they are could be invested in that but you're right and it does it does build in that weird side premium extra layer that it just doesn't you know it's not really standard well and as somebody you gotta wonder

too like it really I would rather just if I go to the web and I search for something in Google on the web there's a very high likelihood that I want a web result you're already using it

if I want that app I. Right. You're already using it. I don't want. If I want that app, I will go install that app. I find that whole thing. I have already been frustrated by that. Yeah. So I guess things are changing, and Chrome OS is becoming a new beast that will be entirely competitive on a different level. And I think Richard absolutely is right. If they don't nail the UI experience, which is going to be damn near impossible, I just don't see how serious users

will want to use it outside of note-taking apps and things like that. I guess. JM, I will give you the last words on this because it does kind of feel like a convergence of the two platforms in a sense. Using, because in a sense, if you look at that diagram,

just core fundamental Linux technologies to bring the two together. Sure. I mean, this has been the long-term strategy with Chrome OS and Android. They've always planned to bring the two together eventually, and they're going to be the premium place where developers will go to publish their apps because it'll be Google first. Forget Windows, forget Mac. It will be on Google's platform. Interesting. I think you're probably right. And nothing else we can do other than watch at this point.

So we move on. And talk about it. That's what we're here for. Yeah, and observe. And then when it lands, we're like, told you. You know what else they told you about is DigitalOcean. This is really where you should go to spin up infrastructure on demand. Now, we know that the key decision you have to make is when you're using cloud computing,

it has to be done on a system that's actually good. This is where DigitalOcean comes in. They've got data centers all over the world, all over the world, using Linux as the base operating system, KVM as the virtualizer, SSDs for all the disk IO. 40 gigabit E connections into the virtualizers. Class A data centers all over the world. It is really, it's like nothing you could ever realize yourself. That's a beautiful picture. And then they come in there.

They come in there with that crazy VC funding, that hoopspa, and that great product. And all of a sudden, they blow up. And they're able to offer you real-time, I mean, like, well, less than 55 seconds. Spin ups of virtual machines starting at $5 a month for 512 megabytes of RAM. So what? A 20 gigabyte SSD, a blazing fast CPU and a terabyte of transfer with a badical, badical UI. Nothing like this you've ever seen to manage your digital ocean droplets.

Shoot, son, girl, please. Nobody's got an interface like this you've ever seen to manage your DigitalOcean droplets. Shoot. Son. Girl, please. Nobody's got an interface like this. But then to back that up. The best API. Oh, man. The best API. Woo!

You know, uh... First class. If you're an API snob, you're hanging out in the bar, you're talking about APIs with your API snobby friends. Drinking your martinis. DigitalOcean is the top of the list. Everybody talks about DigitalOcean. It's that API. It really is.

What's great about it is there's tons of open source applications already written that you don't have to write yourself to take advantage of, so you can be super lazy. But if you hate all of them, the API docs are great, so you just write your own. And you know, back to that interface. Back, back, back to that interface they got. They got HTML5 console, so you can manage your machine

from boot all the way up to post. One-click application deployments. One thing you gotta do, though. One thing. Hold on, Wes. Let me make sure it's legit. Let me see. Double-check. Double-check. I'm checking here.

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Okay. Multiply that. Carry the two. Go to this over legit. Let me see. Double check. Double check. Checking here. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Okay. Multiply that. Carry the two. Go this over here. Let's see. And then just, mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. And I'll just run this cruncher over here. Let's see here. Get it out of here. Oh, yes. That's right. If you use the promo code D01plug, that's the thing they have to do. I thought it was just go there, create an amazing system, get your work done, experiment

with something, put it into production, use whatever damn distro you think is best. And then enjoy their incredible documentation. I thought that's all I had to say. But then I remembered. We would like to do episode 147. We really would. So you got to use that promo code DL1plugged. That's the thing.

Keep us here. You got to do that. You get a $10 credit. You try out their $5 rig. Two months for free. Keep us going. Use that promo code DL1pluggedG and a big thank you to DigitalOcean for sponsoring the unplug program. Now, Wes, there's this crazy upstart out there.

And I don't think Ryan's not in the mumble room, is he? He's not in there? No, I don't see him. There's this crazy project out there that's working on this thing to compete with Google Home or whatever they're calling it, the Amazon Echo. And we've talked about it before. It's called Mycroft. And recently, the Mycroft project released Mycroft Core 0.6 Alpha. Shipping.

Shipping some code. And they put it up on GitHub. You can download it and get it run on Ubuntu. Whoa. What was that? What was that? What was that? I think that was a space-time distortion. I think so, yep.

Yeah, we hit a micro-fragment. That was the Mycroft AI in the future reaching back. That's exactly what I was thinking. Tell us to keep going. Because I was about to show you the Mycroft with his pants off. Look at this. Isn't it just so cute? This is the dev unit here, and if you're watching the video version, we have this linked, the video in the show notes.

The Mycroft with his pants off, so you can see all the guts here. And this thing is looking really good. This is just a prototype, right? I'm impressed. But what's so great about Mycroft in this Amazon Echo era now— You mean besides their name? Yeah. Yeah, that is a great name.

You're right. That is really brilliant. And what's so great, though, and it's not— What also is great is they're open sourcing tons of different code. But the thing that I really love about Mycroft, the thing that really gets me excited about Mycroft, is you can just get Mycroft Core and install it on any damn thing you want. And that means I could truly eventually, if I had the chutzpah and initiative, I could deploy Mycroft ubiquitously in my life. I could have it on my Kodi box. I could have it on my life. I could have it on my Kodi box. I could have it on my server.

I could have it on my desktop. Mycroft, start the show. Right. I mean, it truly, because I'm not going to buy 50 Google Homes or 50 Amazon Echos or whatever, but if I could get a couple of Mycroft devices where I don't want an easy button and then I can install the software in all the other places, like my phone, like my desktop, like my laptop, like my server. Old computers, whatever.

Yeah. So I know you've been playing around with it. I think Ham's been playing around with it. I don't know. Have you actually gotten it started yet? Because it's pretty early days still. I haven't quite. But I haven't had time to look into it too much.

What's the process like? But it's a Python app. And they have some nice scripts that will install all the app dependencies for you and set up a virtual environment. I haven't gotten the sound, you know, I haven't gotten it working quite yet, but I'm sure if I play with it for a little bit longer, I'm excited to get it to work. Now, Ham, you were saying in chat earlier today that you've been playing with it too, yeah?

Yeah, I actually got it working. I cloned the Git repo, and I read the readme file. Super easy. The 0.6.0, I couldn't get it to build, but they released a new version just a day or two later, 6.1. And that one built for me super easy.

I rebooted the computer like they said, opened the terminal, three terminal instances, and ran the commands they said. And I got Mycroft running. I said, hey, Mycroft, open up CNN.com. And it opened up CNN.com, opened up Thunderbird just fine. A few problems here and there, but it's pretty cool. Now, did you also have to create an account with the intent parsing service or something like that,

which I guess is going to be moving to an open source solution but right now you have to like go create an account somewhere right oh that's that is correct uh sybaris.mycroft.ai i think it is yes i did have to create an account there but that's just pretty quick and simple and that's just used to do some of the speech recognition, I guess? Oh, yeah. I signed in using my Google account, and so it took like two seconds to sign in. And I just said that Mycroft pair up my device, and Mycroft gives me a little code. I put it in there, and I was paired within literally two minutes of that. Can you try other things? Can you ask it for weather?

Is there any additional things you can ask, or is it pretty basic right now? I asked, what's the weather? And it gave me the weather for someplace in Kentucky or something. I'm here in Idaho. And I'm like, hey, Mycroft, change my location to Lewiston, Idaho. And it totally didn't get it at all. So does it feel sort of like a verbal command line right now, or does it feel like you're having a conversation?

Like a verbal command line is not a conversation. I mean, when I asked what's the weather, and it said it's sunny out here, it said you better get your sunglasses. That's kind of fun. Yeah, that's kind of fun. Yeah. That's kind of fun. Yeah. Yeah, I think there's two different types of assistants right now.

I feel like Siri and Google Now and Amazon Echo really are very much – they're command lines. And if you learn to say things in this precise order like, you know, hey there, Googs, set a reminder for 5.30 p.m. It works pretty well. And then it'll say, what would you like a reminder for? Right. Remind me to tell Wes that he's awesome. And then it sets a reminder, right? And you have to very much walk through a sequence like that.

And what the next generation of artificial intelligence is doing is more conversational. And you see we're kind of there now. But they're not necessarily as reliable because they depend on being able to suss out your intent and your context. Whereas the command line is a little more intentional, a little more exact

and can also be replicated on text. And that's where I really think, I was joking earlier, but I would love to see so Mycroft has this intent engine and I would love to see if this thing could be integrated in all different aspects. If it truly is, it's all open, and my desktop is open, could Mycroft intent be integrated into the app launcher to learn what apps I most frequently launch? Could Mycroft intent be integrated into my contacts application? Could this be a pervasive artificial intelligence system for the Linux desktop? Something that is not driven by necessarily a strategy tax by a larger parent company

or something like that. I just find the possibilities to be really compelling because it's not just a hardware box, right? Because it's software. Even though you haven't got it working yet and it's not just a hardware box, right? Because it's software. Even though you haven't got it working yet and it's kind of hit and miss, like it is possible. Ham's got the beginning version of it.

Absolutely. And this is 0.6 alpha. That's really cool. Anybody else in the mom room have any thoughts on the topic? Yeah. Oh, go ahead, Popey, and then North. So I was at OSCON last week and I met Ryan Sipes, the CTO of Mycroft AI,

and I held one of the Mycrofts in my hand for the first time. I saw your tweet. That was great. And he said to me that I asked about the voice stuff and whether the new voice print was ready and he said they've got a new version they've they've been regenerating you know all the all the sounds um and he said there was a problem with one of the early ones that uh the voice sounded a little bit like max headroom so we go hello and uh he really wanted to keep that in but they decided no it would be unprofessional to do that so So they got rid of that, unfortunately.

I really want that. Yeah, that would be maybe later. Maybe later. That would be good. So, Popey, did you get it? Was the noise environment suitable to trying it at all? How was that like? Not really.

Yeah. Because the conference center was just so noisy. Every so often you could, like, randomly it would start talking and you'd see the little lips, the light lips moving on the front. And it looks very cute when it's talking. Yeah. But it was just way too noisy in there for us to get a good demo. So your thoughts just overall on integrating Mycroft at more than just, to me, and I wonder

for you too, it seems to be more compelling than just a little hardware device. I would like to see that just be one representation of how I interact with Mycroft. Do you see it being much bigger than just a hardware device? So you were talking there about, you know, having access to like your most recent apps and stuff like most modern desktops have that kind of surfacing that kind of data or using stuff like Zeitgeist, which would keep track of which documents you've opened you know if you could say to mycroft open the document i had open last tuesday when i was listening to abba or something you know because you remembered the document when what you were listening to at the time that's that is kind of the purpose of zeitgeist that it it records what you're doing all the time so there's a data source there that could certainly be mined by uh mycroft and i think that that would be awesome if it was all integrated together

the mycroft project is an interesting one to watch because uh boy the timing is perfect it really is it was just i'm so thrilled that we're not really behind the curve it really felt like we were going to be missing out. Before Minecraft started getting all the momentum they have now. But since Ryan Sipes, who I think is just great. I think Ryan, he's a great, not only is Ryan very

well spoken and he articulates the project's vision and goals. A wonderful advocate. But he's also just a super nice guy to hang out with and chat with. And he was going to join us today, but I'm assuming he's just super busy because he had emailed me earlier today saying, hey, can I make it? And I said, yeah, absolutely. So that's totally understandable.

I wonder – Come back anytime. If he was here, what I would like to ask him, probably the hardest question I would have had for him is, is it getting too much? Is it growing too fast? There's this weird thing that – I don't know how to explain it. But I could tell that our audience was not super impressed by this update and was having a hard time parsing it. It is pretty long. It's long, dense, and it's not traditionally as well done as communication from the Mycroft

project. And so I think it kind of fell a little flatter than maybe they were expecting or at least I was expecting because I think this is a bigger deal than people are realizing. And I don't know if every single stupid thing – well, it's not stupid. But if every single little thing needs a video with some hipster music and a tweet or what. Chris, you know that it does. OK. That's probably true.

And a scrolly website. So maybe I just would like to ask him and what I'm worried about is does something like this that has not just their ideas of what would be great, but then once you start talking to other people and start working with other groups, a lot of other ideas start getting brought into the mix. People start telling you, you should do this. You also got to do this. Get involved with this. Go to this event. Make sure you talk to these people. Make sure you talk.

And I wonder if scope creep is becoming an issue at all. So maybe Ryan will join us soon. We can talk about that. Because even from the perspective of managing an open source project that is fairly well watched, what's that like? What does that feel like? that like? What does that feel like? What happens if you pick, if you want to, if you decide you're going to hit your, like, really Wimpy to some degree has this too with Ubuntu Mate. Absolutely.

And, you know, and of course Richard has this with OpenSUSE. What is it like when that, when, you know, when you all of a sudden you're dealing with something that's, that is very, very heavily watched? richard do you do you have any thoughts just off the top of your head since i just sort of sprung this on you well yeah i mean i guess i've kind of got an example today i mean we've just released 42.2 alpha one like we we thought we knew the scope we knew everything and like the first bunch of feedback is oh we want this extra thing and this extra thing and like on one hand you want to say yes to everything because it's you know it part of that's you know where the enthusiasm comes from

on the other hand you can see if you say yes to everything you're going to end up with an ungodly mess yeah like you get absolutely monsters go creep north ranger you had a positive spin i'd love to hear that yeah so. So, you know, you talk about what they've been out in the community talking about, you worry about the scope creep. I think you're totally right on the timing of this, that I think their time actually is good because, you know, people's awareness of these types of devices and these types of services is constantly increasing with Amazon Echo and Google Now and Siri. But all of those existing solutions are very much focused on Amazon wants to sell you stuff, Google wants to mine all your S.

Whereas Mycroft, if you set aside what they're talking about and focus on what they've actually done, they're showing real hardware and they're releasing the core, the things that you have to get right, the speech recognition, the ability to create intents and create actions. And that's where I think the open source community can take in and run with it. Yeah, that's where I think the open source community can take in and run with it. Yeah, that's well said. And also, just as a tip of the hat to the Minecraft project, when you go to sign up for that account where Ham said he just uses Google and you can just super quick get in there and get the speech recognition, they literally say, like, hey, if you want to help out

and give us a little financial contribution, we're going to be able to replace this whole proprietary have to log in thing way faster, and we'll have the open source solution ready to go. That's our direction we're going. We're going to be able to replace this whole proprietary have to log in thing way faster. And we'll have the open source solution ready to go. That's our direction we're going. We're going to get there one way or another. Here's a couple of ways you can help us get there faster. Yeah. And you look at Mycroft as a project that was funded initially by the community, and

they're not done yet. And I thought what that represented was a super clever way to continue additional bits of funding because you know that they can't just go raise – even if they raised $500,000, that money is going to run out. When you start hiring people and you start having expenses and you start having to go to events, that's done. And they're doing like world-class work here. Of course they're having to – this is like you have to outsource some of this stuff because right now all the solutions that anyone uses are proprietary so they're like exploring new ground and doing work that a lot of them could be paid good money to do with companies so i think it's i and i i really hope they come up with a solid revenue stream uh that doesn't necessarily involve data analytics

of their customers but it comes you know a great way to raise money that contributes back to the project because you want to see something like this continue. And it's really cool it's gotten this far because of community funding so far. And then, of course, open source development. All right, let's take a moment. Now, speaking of community funding, it's time to talk about the Librem 11. It's called and dubbed the Surface Book for those of you who care about your privacy and your freedom. book for those of you who care about your privacy and your freedom. What?

Okay. I have a few thoughts on this as somebody who funded their first attempt at crowdfunding hardware, the Librem 15. So come over here into the hallway with me for just a moment, Wes, and let's talk about Linux Academy. Linuxacademy.com. Go there now. Slash unplugged. You got to go there to get the discount. Go there now. And support the show. You got to go there to get the discount.

Go there now. And support the show. So, Wes, let's get real while we're out here in the hallway. If you don't know, we're out in the hallway right now. We stepped out of the studio. The hallway always sounds like this. This is how it sounds at Jupiter Broadcasting Studios. Of course.

We got all these computers here. This is why it sounds like this. Relax in the hallway. Chill in the hallway, Wes. If you want to get your employer's attention, if you want to maybe do a little better on the next review or get a raise, you know that one of the ways to do that is to continue your education and show them you're expanding your knowledge set.

It's legitimately one of the best ways to get your employer's attention. It's one of the best ways to make you more employable, and it's also a great way to challenge yourself. LinuxAcademy.com slash unplugged. Come on, step out here into the hallway with us and think about it just for a little bit. Go there and try them out. LinuxAcademy.com slash unplugged. You get a discount.

They have self-paced courses with 2,404 to 7 videos. Scenario-based labs that put you in the middle of everyday common tasks. Instructor mentoring. Woo! Could you imagine? You're standing out here in the hallway. Linux common tasks. Instructor Mentory. Woo! Could you imagine? You're standing out here in the hallway. What did Linux Academy tell you what to do? You're out here in the hallway.

You're looking at your smartphone. You're thinking, you know what? I need help. They got it. Instructor Mentory. Because you're in the hallway right now. Linux Academy. Linux Academy.

They got graded server exercises. Sign up. Right now. Because this is not neural programming. This is the hallway, okay? This is the hallway. This is not neural programming. This is the hallway, okay? This is the hallway. This is not neural programming. LinuxAcademy.com slash unplug.

You go there, you learn more. You've got graded server exercises. So that way, if you're like me and you S your pants when you've got to take a test, you know what I don't like is scenarios where there's no option other than win-lose. I like a couple of options. I want a plan B.

I want a plan B. Now, come over here. Now, let's step into the computer room. Yeah, okay. So here we're in the computer room now, Wes. Right next to the studio. We got data to crunch here, folks. Yeah, and the way we learned how to do that is Linux Academy.

Linuxacademy.com slash unplug. They got the best courseware. I'm going to say it right now. The best courseware on the Red Hat stuff. Oh, you got stuck in the DevOps position all of a sudden? Oh, I shouldn't say stuck. One, they'll tell you what that term means. Two, they'll tell you

how to effectively use those tool sets. They've also got great, great courseware on Amazon Web Services, Android Development, Ruby, OPHP, and their courseware comes with their servers. What? Had we not mentioned that? I got to say, I should have mentioned at the top.

See, I'm a rookie here. I should have mentioned at the top. You get to choose from seven plus distributions. No, this is not neural programming. I'm just letting you know. Okay? Seven. Seven plus distributions.

And then they automatically adjust the courseware. Virtual machines. That's crazy. They spin that up on demand. They spin up that, and it matches the courseware. Now, think about that. That's how you know that they, like, actually know how to use this stuff. Linuxacademy.com slash unplug.

Go check them out. They got great instructor mentoring. They have a community stacked full of Jupyter Broadcasting members. And I think the other thing that really speaks for them is they legitimately have constant results. It's really neat. And actually, I like it when you tweet me and you tell me about it too. So thanks, you guys. LinuxAcademy.com slash unplugged.

All right. So we've stepped back into the studio. We're no longer in the hallway or the computer lab. No. Or whatever that last room was. I want to talk about the Librem 10, a 10.1-inch, 2-in-1 detachable laptop tablet designed to protect your digital life. From the Purism folks, they say it's beautiful freedom, and they believe in users' rights.

It's a tablet and a laptop. They say a ton of work to make the Gnome Shell ready for this. It's a laptop. Yeah, and it ships Pure OS, and they got a video. It doesn't really say much, but I guess I could read you the highlights because I don't think there's actually any voiceover here. So they say, what's on your tablet?

Privacy isn't about what you want to hide. It's about what you need to protect. If you could design the ultimate tablet, what would it be? You are helping design your next computer. We are listening. Hey, it's Todd. Your current computer and service providers know more about you than anybody else. Apple, Google, or Microsoft hold the master key to your digital life. You want a computer designed to protect you rather than monitor you. Introducing the Librem 11, the latest computer from Purism designed by you to protect your digital life. from Purism designed by you to protect your digital life. An 11-inch 2-in-1 detachable privacy, security, and freedom-focused computer.

Running PureOS 3.0 where you hold the master key to your entire digital life. All right! They've been to the Chris Last School of music overlays here. The Librem 11 turns off remote spying with hardware kill switches. It does not track you at all, nor does it phone home to the parent company. The Librem 11 runs free software with the source code available to verify that it protects your digital rights. Get that source code. And above all else, makes protecting yourself as easy as turning it on. At Purism, we believe protecting your digital rights should be easier than giving them up.

We make hardware and software that is designed to protect your digital life. In order to achieve this goal, Purism has amassed an amazing team of the best freedom writers from all over the world. What up? Selfie cam. What up? Selfie cam. With your help, Purism will continue leading the way in protecting everybody's digital life.

Thank you. Man, I'll tell you what. I'm pretty stoked about that hammock in the back of Tom's yard there. That's nice. That shows he's got good taste. That looks comfy. I'm more confident now. So the Librem 11, a two-in-one tablet that protects your privacy, they want to raise $150,000.

They have two months left. So it's a real long one over on Indiegogo, real nice and long one. And they've so far raised $12,455 with only 11 backers. 11 backers. Starting at $999. You can get a $599 if you want a less capable one. So I got a lot of thoughts on this, but I guess I wanted to open it up to you first, Wes, and then I'll toss it over to the Mumba Room after that.

What do you think? Do you at this point... What is just your initial thoughts? I mean, people might not be fully familiar with my history with the company, so that aside, what is just your initial thoughts on something like this? There are some good things and some bad things. They're very zoomed in on this Core M processor here on the page, which has

me a little off-put already, but I think the video was good. I think there are some people with very good intentions behind this. Bringing in your history there, I do have some questions about if they'll be able to ship it, what it really will look like.

And I also don't know how much I'm that interested in the tablet two-in-one workflow anyway. Here's my question. I don't know how to state this in a way that doesn't – that maybe if you're not already there with me, you might not understand. But inherently, would you agree or disagree that one of the features of a tablet is build quality? Yeah, I agree. And would you agree or disagree that one of the features of a tablet is content consumption

and therefore its ecosystem? Yep. And would you agree that one of the things of a tablet that makes it compelling to a large market is a healthy accessory ecosystem? Maybe like cases for kids, charging stations for people that want to have multiple charging options, Bluetooth speakers that have holders that are, you know, like connector speakers and chargers that hold alarm clocks, things like that.

It's an ecosystem that I would say you could say makes a tablet viable. Would you agree with that to some degree or not? No, I mean, I think I see what you're saying. And that, I mean, right there, that limits the scope of who could be interested in this. I mean, I'm really curious to see what they say. You've said they've done a lot to the GNOME shell. It would be really interesting to see this succeed.

I don't want to preclude this being an awesome product. Well, I mean, for a tablet, so it's going to have Linux. 16 gigabytes of RAM, user-upgradable, easily-removable screws, 6 to 8 battery lives, hardware kill switches for wireless, Bluetooth, camera, microphone, GPS, and the cellular data, if you get it. Oh, wow.

Cellular data. So, I think it ties back with the laptop, you know, with the... There's a lot of things here that I could really like and I'd love to see it succeed. I don't know that it will and I don't know that what percentage of success that they do achieve will be enough to make it worthwhile. Any of the men in the moment have any thoughts about – I mean is this a good pivot? is this a good pivot? Is this maybe a pivot from building,

trying to compete in the traditional laptop space and saying we're going to go after this sort of niche here, this Surface niche? Yeah, because what they were competing in before, there were a lot of providers like in Europe, there's Antroair and Shanker and PC Specialist. There were a lot of boutique companies that just repackaged Clefo products. But there doesn't seem, from these companies, there doesn't seem any proper Surface competitors.

So I think it's a nice niche to go into. And from my experiences with my brother Surface Pro and with GNOME, I really, really want to experience how GNOME works on a proper tablet because I think it would be a very good experience of having a full desktop into a tablet with a good desktop environment that integrates both ideas. So I think it's a good idea. Pobi, what are your thoughts on it? As someone who worked on a product which landed on a tablet that got some interesting feedback recently,

I would say the thing they need to nail is not just the hardware build quality, but people can be quite forgiving of hardware build quality if it's at the right price point. But what they often can't forgive is poor quality or unfinished software. forgive is poor quality or unfinished software and if if they don't if they don't get that nailed then people who've backed it might might revolt slightly do you think they could spend say several months with gnome 3 shell and get gnome shell in a state that is uh usable in a touch environment to be fair i haven't usednome Shell for a long time. So I don't know what state it's in in a touch environment. I haven't got it on any machines that have got a touch screen.

So I don't know. And I don't know how touch oriented. I know everyone who sees any operating system that has big icons immediately erroneously thinks it's a touch UI. But I don't know how well Gnome Shell is suited to touch at the moment. So I don't know how far they've got to go. I just think they need to focus on that quite hard. I think it comes down to the apps.

I think the Shell does okay. I mean, I've used it on like not a great, some like mediocre touch interfaces and like launching apps and that kind of stuff is fine. It'll depend on like, you know, if you use Chromium, it'll do well. Or Chrome, maybe some other web browsers less so or similar for the rest of your apps. If you're using Linux apps that just aren't going to work with touch, it's going to be painful.

What about gestures and pinching and things like that? So I have not read through the whole post where they say all the work they did for GNOME, but I know they did address some of that. Also, they say they're going to eventually have optional docking station features like a power connector, an RJ45 Ethernet port, HDMI out, two USB ports. I like how they solved the fan problem with not having a fan. Yeah, that is nice. That was my solution too. I guess they just adopted my solution from their laptop problem. Now, I look at this and I think to myself, it's really, really, really a difficult position to be in,

to be a project out in the open like this, hardware or software, and be crowdfunded and have to publicly fail a few times, which a lot of companies and a lot of initiatives and a lot of projects do. But this is right out in the open. Yeah, and there's money on the line. And like this, you could see two ways.

This could be purism abandoning the laptop line and moving over – or not abandoning. That's the wrong way to put it. This is purism redirecting their attention and getting distracted by a shiny and not focusing on just nailing and really making something good and then moving on to the next thing. They feel like they haven't finished the last thing. But you could also look at it and say, this is a company that is recognizing the competitive landscape and wants to contribute something unique and cater to a market that wants that product but wants to have some of their essential requirements met.

And they're recognizing that and saying, you know what? We couldn't nail this, but we think we can nail that. And so we're going to pivot. And we're going to try to make that our thing. That's also reasonable. If they actually literally say that, then it would be like, well, you admit your mistake, but they haven't done so. Well, that's true. That's a good point.

Yeah, no, true. But I'm just of two minds of this thing. I look at it and I go, I don't know. It would be really cool to have a Linux tablet that I loved using. That would be awesome. Yeah, I look at that and I go, geez, a-core, micro SD slot, HDMI out, docking station. And if the keyboard clip-in business works well and it doesn't feel chintzy, then that would be great. All right, Jama Biz.

I don't know how you say your hat on JMA, BBZ. Go ahead. Your thoughts on crowdfunding. Yeah, I mean, with crowdfunding, you are essentially not buying a product. You're just investing in the hope that. And they have managed to get a product out. It wasn't very good. Hopefully this one will be better.

We'll have to wait and see. But they are trying, and hopefully they're contributing back to knowing that, as always, there's a risk with crowdfunding, and people need to be aware of that. Well, I want to say, you know, they contacted us after my Librem 15 review, which you guys can go find on your own. And they said, well, would you be willing to try the Librem 13? Because we really think we did a much better job with the Librem 13. We got a better hardware partner. We had a chance to do it better. Would you be willing to look at that?

I hem and hi-ha'd about it because I'm not a big 13-inch laptop guy. I'm more of a 15-inch laptop person. Who are you? And I was a little burned, right? I was a little burned by them, so I thought that might influence my review. So what I decided, should have Noah review it. Right. That guy loves 13-inch laptops, loves them. And he didn't That guy loves the 13-inch laptops.

Loves them. And he didn't get burned by the 15-inch laptop. No skin off his back. Right. So on this week's episode of the Linux

Action Show, on Sunday's episode, we're going to review the Librem 13. Ooh. Yeah. Exciting. And it's not that I

want to keep doing all these hardware reviews over and over again, but every single day, I get an email about the perfect Linux laptop. And every single week on Reddit, I see a thread about the perfect Linux laptop. And once a month, somebody on Hacker News talks about how they have found a perfect

Linux laptop. It's talked about all the time. So we're going to look at the Librem 13 on the Linux Action Show and see if they nailed that product. And my estimation is, depending on how well they did that, when they got another chance, how well they did on the Librem 13, if they nailed that, if NOAA says they did a great Because that is really the test is like, they just need to keep some amount of people that will keep funding them and letting them progress as a company.

And the brown bear loves himself the 13-inch laptop. So if they nailed the 13-inch laptop, then I think this is maybe a viable project. Like you could rely on them to really be able to iterate on something. So we'll see. I don't know. I specifically asked him not to really give me any details about it. I want to find out during the show. So he's had it for like three weeks or something. Sounds like a good one to watch

a lot. Yeah. Which has been interesting because he's received like maybe four. I don't know. He's had it for a while. And he got it like during the Oryx. So he's had the Oryx and the Libra side by side. Yeah, it should be a really interesting review. So we'll talk about that on Sunday's show. But we'll have links to this crowdfunding campaign if you want to go get yourself one.

Maybe just hang out. You got, I think you got two months. It's a long one. So maybe just wait for a little bit and see where it goes. Ooh, if you want to support something today, check this out, Wes. It's a long one. So maybe just wait for a little bit and see where it goes. Ooh. If you want to support something today, check this out, Wes. Patreon.com slash today. That's where you go to fund the network.

Now, this page is all jacked up. It's got stuff on there about Tech Talk Today. It's got a video of me with an old hairstyle, which is just hard to look at. 90s. But none of that matters. Go there anyway. What it's really about— Just type your credit card in.

Chris, put on the confusion thing. I'm putting it in right now. I'm putting it in. Okay, wait, no? Nothing? Nothing? Let's go to the hallway. You want to go to the hallway?

Okay, hold on, Wes. We'll go to the hallway. Hold on, Wes. We're out in the hallway. Just you and me. Nobody's here. Tell them about Patreon. Patreon.com slash today.

This is where you go to support the Jupiter Broadcasting Network and orient our compass towards our audience. Now, I say that in a really kind of nice, fancy way, right? Orient our compass towards our audience. What does that really mean? I'll tell you, Wes. Well, just because we're out in the hallway. It's just you and me. Tell us, Chris.

If we were in the hallway, I wouldn't say this. Tell us now. Advertising on the web is only going to work for so long. Eventually going to go bust. I'll say it right now. And if you've read the New York Times recently, you know that NPR and a bunch of other podcast advertising brokers are going to screw it all up for all of us. They're really messing it up bad. They want Apple to create its own garden system around podcasting.

Google Play now has its own walled garden that has its own stats and re-hosts our files. It is, Wes, if we weren't out in the hallway right now, right now legitimately standing in the hallway, I wouldn't say this. It ain't going to work much longer. And that's why I think we've talked about crowdfunding today from a multiple set of angles. I think this is a big one. What it really does is it makes your priority your crowdfunding source. Or your priority is going to be what your funding source is. Always.

That, I think, is really all you need to know. And we want our priority to be the audience. Patreon.com slash today. Now, I don't want to say more than that because we're in the hallway. If we were in a different room, I might say something else. But that's all I want to say about it. You might also find an extended live edition of this show. Extended live.

Extended live. Extended live edition of this show at Patreon.com slash today. Full featured. 601 patrons. That's really great. We're getting close. Well, by close, I mean we need to double that. But once we double that... Subscribe again. Then. Three times.

Then I'll do all these shows topless. Oh, boy. Or, or pay $5 more than that and Chris wears two shirts. Oh, man. I was waiting to see what you'd say about that. No, I'm kidding.

But Patreon.com slash today. We are beginning to post the live recordings of our shows, the whole thing. I love it. I was already recording the live stream. Were you really? Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, it's more fun. I love the live stream.

They are better, right? Right? And sometimes I can't be there or I'm out and about or whatever. And so now you guys do all the hard work for me. And since I'm a patron already, like, it's an awesome benefit. Yeah, it's an early system. We're still setting it up. But if you want to get in on it, what essentially it lets you do is we're posting a few shows throughout the week, the entire live stream.

Now, I think it's funny because I don't know if people really jumped on it, but I posted the TechSnap one, and that's the first time we have ever showed any live clips. We've never do outtakes in TechSnap. It's nothing like that. It's just what's in there. And the moment, my favorite moment in that,

and it's right there if you're a Patreon, is it starts with Alan troubleshooting his microphone. And what is revealed is that A, that and it's right there if you're a patreon is it starts with alan troubleshooting uh his his microphone and what what was what is revealed is that a alan jude has a favorite usb port and b alan jude broke his favorite usb oh man and so the whole thing is quite funny and it's just it's a brilliant like example of what happens on the live stream before TechSnap that no one ever sees unless you make it. Totally different show. And now with this new

Linux-powered OBS rig we have here, doing this extra work and all these extra SATCOMs we got going, we thought, now is the point. Now we can finally contribute back to our patrons. And we specifically had a milestone we wanted to reach to be able to financially do that.

And it worked out perfectly. As we crossed that milestone, the hardware went into place. That's awesome. And now we're delivering those exclusives to our patrons. Patreon.com slash today. You start at the $3 level. You go all the way up. They got swag levels.

We got all that. Them people over there are crazy. Just ignore everything else on the page. That doesn't. Well, you actually, it's been getting updated over time. It's been getting quite fancied up. We got like a new cord cutting level if you're a cord cutter. You got like your Netflix and your Hulu.

Yeah, read that. Isn't that... You're a cord cutter. You decided mainstream cable isn't how you want to consume content anymore, and it turns out JB has just what you need. This level means you support content that is tailored to your technical needs needs and you are still saving money. That's true.

$10 a month is nothing. Yeah, I know, right? I know. So check it out. Patreon.com slash today. You support the whole network. And we have big things coming that we want to accomplish in 2016. I feel like –

See, now you've proven it, right? Like you've shown like you give more money, you get more out of the network. I feel like we have. I feel like we've delivered and I want – You want Chris to go live in an RV and travel around the country? Bam, he'll do it. Well, no. No, that's not even on there.

No, what really it's about is – it's not about me. It is about being able to launch new shows and not have to think about sponsors first. It's about being able to determine what 601 people like, not what 100,000 people might like. See, one of the fundamental problems we have at the Jupiter Broadcasting Network, and it is literally our biggest competitive disadvantage, is we cover Linux and open source. And it's the stuff we love, and that's why we cover it. But it is the niche of the niche. Technology podcasting is a niche.

Open source and Linux is a niche within that niche. Like Mac and Windows are a niche within that niche. Like Mac and Windows are niches within that category. Imagine, right, where desktop Linux and the concerns of the open source community fit within that overall consumer market. We're tiny. We're absolutely tiny. And that's why you don't see us often featured in iTunes. That's why you don't necessarily see us listed in Pocket Cast's network list. Right. Because you'll see networks that literally get half the downloads we get listed there simply because they cover topics that appeal to a wider audience. So one of our major competitive disadvantages is that we talk about Linux and open source,

but at the same time, that's our biggest competitive advantage because that's all we're really about. We really dig into that stuff on these shows. And if you enjoy that content, if that is something that's provided value to you or something that you just have listened to over and over again and enjoyed, patreon.com slash today. We need you because we do not have the advantages that some of the other podcast networks have by covering Apple and iPhones and everything Google does and all of that extra crap that

we're all sick and tired of hearing about all the time. And so that's why we're really, really hoping that we can funnel more attention to our Patreon and grow that because that really then unhinges us and allows us to go cray-cray. Cray-cray, Wes. And it's great to have a system like Patreon where you really can just give money right to the awesome people who make the shows you watch. And you get a little extra bonuses.

Get them bonuses. Patreon.com slash today. Thank you, everybody who does support us. And that brings us to the end of this week's episode of the Unplugged program. Oh, Wes. I feel like we could go on more and more. The whole episode had a thread through it. It did.

And I find that to be interesting since it's not really intentional with this show. This is the Unplugged program and you can hang out with us live over at jblive.tv. It did. And I find that to be interesting since it's not really intentional with this show. This is the Unplugged program and you can hang out with us live over at jblive.tv. Please do. jubilabroadcasting.com slash calendar to get that converted to your local time zone. If you want to think bots do it, I'll let you believe that. I'll let you believe that.

It's fine. We have a mumble room if you want to participate in our virtual lug. And last but not least, we love your feedback at linuxactionshow.reddit.com. Join us in the hallway. All right, everybody. Thank you so much for tuning this week's episode of Unplugged. See you back here next Tuesday. Get it out of here.

I've never installed GNU slash Linux. It's for people who like to mess with computers. Alright, so before we start the show, Mr. Corpse brought it up in the Mumble Room, and it's amazing. Holy smokes. When I got on the livestream today, this was still at three million it's already at four million wow so this is the pebble 2 time 2 and the new pebble core it already has 21 000 backers with 36 days left to go they had a goal of a million dollars they've now raised wow four million dollars and let's just this this is very perfect timing because some of the discussions we're going to get into today are very much around open source projects like the Mycroft device and others that are open crowdfunded. Open source, open – different – not necessarily Kickstarter, but different methodologies of funding.

And here is one of the all-time big names on Kickstarter launching this today. I think it's kind of perfect timing. I don't hear anything though. It's all screwed up. I don't know what happened there. That was really signed up pretty well, too. It's kind of a shame. I don't know.

Let's go HTML5. Damn it, Linux. Why are you doing this to me now? What's going on, baby? Don't you love me? Don't you love me, Linux? You know, I watched this not 35 minutes ago, and I worked just fine. Oh, mustaches, dude. Mustaches.

Well, okay, let's bust it out. Let's go into the lab. Let's figure out what's going on here. I'm going to pop and lock my audio interface. Stand by! Live hot swap in progress! Okay! Hold on! Hold on!

Reswapping! Utilizing GNOME extension to re-default. Sound interface recognized. Original output selected. Refreshing web page. Activating video. Hey, it did it.

Nice. That was really... I want to reset that up in purpose. You're an IT wizard. That was... Not only... Not only... Okay, okay.

I will say, though, YouTube DL downloads from Kickstarter just fine. Oh, nice. Good to know. I also have it here. Thanks. But not only did that solve the problem, but there were sound effects and live commentary. That is, see, that's how you know I used to do IT, right? There's.

Okay, now shut up, Wes. We're going to start over again because I want that S to be smooth. Okay? All right? Okay? Okay? We're going to start over again because I want that S to be smooth. OK? All right? OK? Man. Almost blew that S, Wes.

This is CNN Breaking News. Now, this is almost perfect timing for the big show today. Wait. No, that's not. Damn, I'm all off. Damn, man. I just. We're the cute little show. OMG, OMG, OMG.

I'm too warm, Wes. I'm too warm. All right, fine. Here we are. The jacket's coming off. Even though I love this Mate jacket, which Wes commented on. It is beautiful. It's a nice Ubuntu Mate jacket that was sent to me by Mr. Wimpy, and I really like it.

And it was pleasant in here until the damn log guy started doing his thing. So now— Maybe he's gone. If y'all can get your crap together, we're going to start over, okay? And we're not going to call it the big show.