LINUX Unplugged - Episode 169: Apple's Out Of Touch Bar | LUP 169

Episode Date: November 2, 2016

Swaths of Apple users are trying out Linux for the first time this week, with varying results. We discuss why & how it's going.Then, we play some great clips by long time Kernel guru GregKH, dream about a future Linux living room, update you on a ton of great projects & more!

Wes, did you see this? We were talking about this on the pre-show. Turth in the chat room was, or he is in New York, and he found a, I don't know if he's like in a Nixon museum or something, and he found these Nixon cigarettes. And if you look at that logo on those Nixon cigarettes. That sure looked like the Windows logo, doesn't it? Wow. Nixon campaign 72 cigarettes.

These were campaign advertising material, and that is straight up the Windows 10 Windows logo on there. One of the designers at Microsoft just has that sitting on a shelf in their office. You know, you're daydreaming, trying to think up the next thing. It's right there. All that money, and they ripped off a Nixon cigarette. This is Linux Unplugged, episode 169, for November 1st, 2016. Oh, welcome to Linux Unplugged, your weekly Linux talk show that at least 50% of it proudly uses Nano. My name is Chris. My name is Chris.

My name is Wes. I won't out you, Wes. Please don't. I got a lot of slack this week. I recorded a video in the Linux Action Show where I was using, God forbid, Nano. I know. That's just a recipe for flame war, man. Don't worry. I'm going to make up for it this week.

Are you going to show us your VI skills? I got true Vim skills. Yeah, I'm all about the color coding. You know, that's not how I'm going to make it up for you. I'm going to make it up for you with a great show. We have what you would probably classify as an oversized show. Now, we don't have the markers, so we may get a ticket, but it is a huge update section. We're going to get into some big developments this week that I'm a little fired up about.

Then later on as we move down to the show, we're going to pick up the speed as we get busting along. And we're going to find some alternative devices to the Roku that run Linux that look like they may be coming very soon. And then we're going to wrap it all up towards the end with some quotes from Mr. Greg KH. Our favorite. During a recent fireside Chat about kernel development happening over email and why they still use email, the guy says,

are you guys just a bunch of graybeards? Like, why aren't you using Slack? As if, like, that's, or whatever. GitHub. Yeah. So they talk about why they still use email for core Linux kernel development.

He talks about licensing in a way that's actually interesting and some other interesting tidbits about a bunch of ex-Microsoft employees now working full-time on the Linux kernel. All kinds of stuff. We'll get into all of those quotes from his Fireside Chat once we get through all our

updates. So yeah, we've got a lot of heavy stuff up front, and then we're going to really pick up the speed as we go on. And the people that are going to help us do that is our virtual lug. Time-appropriate greetings, Mumbaroo. Hello! Hello! we go on. And the people that are going to help us do that is our virtual lug. Time appropriate greetings, Mumbaroo. Hello. Hello. I'm not sure

what that was there. I don't know what that was exactly. Who was that? I don't know. Probably a mole. Let's start with some really nice kind of happy news. Because sometimes we start with breaking news. Everything is ruined. I thought it would be fun to talk about Mr. Robot. Six ways Mr. Robot is putting Linux in the public eye.

And this is kind of legit. I mean, really early on, they had the gnome KDE clip. Do you remember that on Mr. Robot? So I see a running gnome. You know, I'm actually on KDE myself. I know this desktop environment is supposed to be better, but you know what they say. Old habits, they die hard.

That face is perfect. Like, what the? I'm an executive. I mean, why am I even running Linux? I love that. And that was when maybe I actually watched the show. And they also, recently, they showed a screenshot of Kali Linux. Hey, look at that.

Which is totally legit. Bonafide. And, of course, often they showed a screenshot of Kali Linux. Hey, look at that. Which is totally legit. Bonafide. And of course, often they'll show shots of the command line. And real shell commands, which is pretty great. So, I don't know, spoilers, but have you ever watched TV when you see a Linux thing and it's just totally like, oh my gosh. If you're watching Mr. Robot,

you're getting that all the time, probably, but every now then you're watching random television. Yeah, it's always exciting. And it adds that one layer of depth. I mean, you're already kind of going with the show, you're buying and then you're watching random television it adds that like one layer of depth you know it's like i mean you're already kind of you know you're going with the show you're buying into their storyline but when you like especially when it's like fake terminal commands and you're like you could have just filmed a real terminal it would have worked fine you don't need to like make up this thing that just like kind of takes me out of the moment from the show so i i appreciate the depth that they go to yeah yeah i i'm i uh i was watching a news clip on virtual reality.

And you know how the news is about covering virtual reality. And so they're in a room where the guy's got the headset on and they're developing new technologies. And it's a typical shot of this guy making a clown out of himself. And the news camera pans over to where the computers are at. And, you know, it's VR. So I'm thinking this is going to be a Windows box. And no kidding, it was an Ubuntu Unity desktop.

You see that dock right on the left there? The classic dock with that GTK2 looking bar that hasn't been updated since 1984. It looks... I mean, you can't misplace it. It's Unity in all its glory and everything else. That's awesome. And I was like, wait a minute. Hold on. How come

they get VR on Linux and I don't get VR on Linux? How did we get that? How did that happen? I was watching that. I'm like, wait a minute. Hold on. How come they get VR on Linux and I don't get VR on Linux? How did we get that? How did that happen? I was watching that. I'm like, hold on now. They didn't have show notes telling you how to set that up. That's the problem. Yeah, CBS needs to put a link in the show notes for sure.

And so I guess there's some VRs working under Linux because these researchers were using it. And so that was one of my most recent – sitting there reviewing, and I'm looking at this and going, what the? Where did this come from? Where did this come from? Okay, so I also wanted to do another little positive story that I just wanted to throw out there. This is your official Linux Unplugged reminder. It's November. God damn it.

And there's holidays coming up. Oh. And if you take some pictures and something goes wrong, I want you to remember that in 169, Chris and Wes hooked you up with how to recover those pictures. This is a great post. Search and rescue SD card recovery. He has a Canon EOS 300D. You know, it's an old SLR camera. And his SD card file system corrupted or something on him. He lost all his pictures when he went to Mo's Fest, the Mozilla Festival, a couple of weeks back.

Yeah. And so he wanted to do the entire restoration under Linux. And so he goes through the different tools he used to restore his SD card contents and recover his photos under Linux and then document it all right there with a nice epic win screenshot of the Nautilus file browser full of his restored photos. And I don't really, we don't need to bust through this because this is really only applicable to people that are in this situation, but it is in the show notes. It's nice to have because you don't want to be worrying about where to go find the

tutorial and if it's up to date and all that when you're desperately trying to recover your files. Yeah, and I also just wanted to kind of spotlight really good, you know, this kind of blogging is just great. It's great when you see this kind of stuff come along. So I just wanted to kind of. Absolutely. Give it a little, give it a little, give it a little attention as it were.

There is a story that's been percolating around for about two weeks now and it doesn't seem to be dying off. So I've decided we'd talk about it because at first my reaction was like, this is not a big. Right. Is it anything? It continues to get posted on Hacker News. It continues to get written about.

I thought I'd link to the OMG coverage here. Linux market share has remained above 2% on the desktop for the third month in a row. This is according to NetMarketShare, and it's a data analytics company. I'll tell you where they source their data from in a moment. But it looks like this has been holding steady since July, and it looks like it's continuing to climb. In fact, it's gone up to 2.33% since then. Here's the thing, guys. NetMarketShare bases its data on the number of visitors to 40,000 websites.

It's not like it's an insignificant sample size, but compared to the overall Linux desktop market, there's no way it's representative. But it's an interesting data point. You can also look at Wikimedia, which shows 1.2% if you include Ubuntu, Red Hat, and SUSE, but doesn't look at other distros. Oh. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. But, you know, the reality is we'll never have an idea. We'll never have an idea. But there are... Even just talking about that is making me realize, you know, just think about how would you do that? And it would be hard. It's a hard thing to get a good number on. You know what I have kind of relied on is aggregating different data sources over the years.

So I look at things like these types of reports from NetMarket. But I also look at the Wikimedia stuff and I look at Steam and I look at the W3 schools and kind of aggregate them all together. And I will say this, in aggregate, there is an uptick. There does seem to be a pretty consistent uptick in aggregate. It's nothing major. Right. But then, of course, how you measure these things is pretty difficult.

Yeah, that's definitely true. The graph is sure not that exciting, though. No. No, it's not that exciting. You know what is exciting? Freaking 1.9.22 of Wine. First of all, it lets you play Max Payne 2, which made me think of you. But coming just two weeks after the previous Wine, yes, I'm actually going to report on a version of Wine.

It doesn't happen often. It doesn't. They've added some nice support for Direct2D. They've fixed 25 bugs, and they've added improvement to multiple Windows games. But the one thing that really matters, Wes, the thing that matters the most, is they have resurrected support for a game from November of 1996. It's almost perfect. The anniversary is right here. It's very important to me.

It was not a good game at all. It shouldn't have anybody working on it, but they have done it, and it's called Star Trek 4. Hold on, buddy. We need you conscious. Don't go to one of your pain trances. No! No! Furlong! Furlong, get out of here! I'm sorry. You are in a bajani pain trance.

Your friend Furlong wasn't able to stop it. The Borg don't seem to notice, though. They're assimilating you at this very moment. At least this time, you won't feel it. So this is like a quick-time events-driven game. Oh, I see. Interesting. There is a star, so they film it using all existing Star Trek sets and Star Trek sound effects and the Star Trek directing. That's our friend John Delancey. Yeah. But there is actually one thing of rather interest canon edition that they bring to the Star Trek canon in this game. So if you're a Star Trek fan, it's worth playing just for that. So it's kind of cool that it's a game that if it passed you by and you kind of want to – it's an interactive Star Trek episode. If you've ever seen Minecraft story mode or anything like that, it's basically that.

It was the pinnacle of QuickTime events games, which is not saying much. That's great. It starts like a legitimate game of, or it starts like a legitimate television show of Star Trek. This is going to get us pulled down. So you just mix this with your VR headset and I'd be entertained for hours.

Actually, that could be pretty good, right? Especially if you could move around the entire space. I have the whole thing if you just want to watch it and not play it. But it's a first-person perspective game where you walk around the halls of the ship, interact with officers. It even has credits and all of the music just like a Star Trek episode. It looks like a Star Trek episode from a first-person perspective. This is great. So it's kind of neat.

Oh, relate, geez. Yeah, it's kind of neat, though, because you can pick this game up for really cheap or you can find it online and now you're able to run it under Linux. It's wild that people are working on that and now it works. Ridiculous maybe you might add. Pointless but also it's what I love about Wine and Linux is there is something incredibly nostalgic

about taking some of my favorite old games even like ones that I bought on GOG a while ago that I can now play under Wine and not have to hassle with a Windows crappy VM or any of that junk. Any of that. It's amazing that Linux can do more. Right. You wonder at some point like some of these older games,

if Wine will start being able to be a better place to run them than modern Windows. Yeah. Maybe they'll do like a hard break one day on the Windows platform. They're like, okay, this technical debt has gotten so crazy. We're going to move to the next version of Windows. Well, they'll probably retain the Linux environment and they'll use Wine. Wine in the Linux subsystems around old Windows. Okay, great.

We've called it here. Yeah. There's your prediction on the unplugged program. Yikes. But I do think it's really cool that they added that stuff. Hey, before we go any further, let's talk about the opposite of that complicated mess. Let's talk about something that makes mobile simple, and that's Ting. Go to linux.ting.com, where they're on a mission to make mobile make sense.

And here's why. There's no contract, no other termination fee, and you only pay for what you use. $6 for each line. You got one phone. You got three phones. It's $6 for each one of them. It's nice, simple, straightforward GSM and CDMA networks that you get to choose from. And if you're in business, this is something you should really consider, especially if you're kind of like a smaller business.

But even anybody that has like, for me, like with three or four devices, it's just fantastic. But even when you go above 10 devices, the savings is nuts because it's just $6 and then your staff's usage. And if you got Wi-Fi at your office and they've got Wi-Fi at home, it's ridiculous what you can get away with. And it's perfect for those things where, like, well, maybe you need, like, just a backup internet connection for your office, but you're going to use it, what, one time a year? Yeah, yeah. It's so nice because if you go over to the Ting buy page or the shop page,

you can just get a little SIM card and you can put it in a MiFi. You get it off eBay or you can get one of the MyFis directly from them. Keep that in your drawer. And the day your Comcast connection goes out, you fire this up. Literally, I've done that twice here at JB. $6 a month for that kind of like, you know, just knowing it'll work. One time, this story is a couple of years old now, but it's such a classic and it's so perfect. It's just a perfect example is Alan

Jude flew out here to record TechSnap in person. How often does that happen? A couple times ever. And he shows up and Comcast is down. And what are we going to not record? He's here for the day. What are we going to not do a show? And I got to show visuals. I got to look up stuff for the stories. He's got to read sites. So we set up Ting. We set up a Wi-Fi hotspot on my Nexus and just connected our laptops to that. Our laptops up Ting. We set up a Wi-Fi hotspot on my Nexus and just connected our laptops to that. Our laptops had connection. We recorded two shows over the Ting connection that day. Ting saved it. And it was just, that's just so nice. Like tethering and stuff or hotspot, just checkbox. It's not a big deal. Also check out the Ting blog. They went

and pulled their Redditors and they shared seven different hacks to help save money on mobile. That's pretty cool. They also are pushing now the Moto G4 Play, a pretty nice mid-sized device at a great price, $150. No contract, no determination fee. And if you go to linux.ting.com, you get $25 off your device or $25 in service credit. linux.ting.com. And a big thank you to Ting for sponsoring the Unplugged program.

All right, before we get into something really heavy, I do have something really fun that I just wanted to give a shout-out to. Users over on linux underscore gaming organized together to bribe Aspire into porting Civ 6 to Linux. And it was looking like it was going to be maybe murky. They were evaluating the cost. You know, there's a Mac version they want to make as well. And they were nice in public in commenting in thread saying, you know, we're not really sure. We're in the research stage.

The bottom line is we need to prove to ourselves, our partners, and to our partners that a Linux version can perform to our standards, you know, monetarily. And so Linux underscore gaming guys and gals got together and sent them a box of Tiff's Treats, which is a local Austin cookie company, and sent them boxes after boxes of cookies. In fact, they have another one scheduled to be delivered on Thursday this week. And Aspire Media, or Aspire, took notice. And they said, they tweeted out, this just came in the mail this morning. Thank Aspire Media, or Aspire, took notice. And they tweeted out, this just came in the mail this morning. Thank you, you lovely Linux people.

Your guilt trip has been accepted. Hashtag nom, nom, nom. Then another tweet comes out. It says the Linux team would like to offer their thanks, as would the majority of the companies, and thanks to Tiffany Streets. And then they posted some more pictures of people passing out from cookie overdoses.

That's a great strategy. I mean, at some point, everyone in the company is going to have's Treats. And then they posted some more pictures of people passing out from cookie overdoses. That's a great strategy. I mean, at some point, everyone in the company is going to have to stop by. They're going to have enough cookies. Everyone's going to have some. Everyone asked where it came from. Now everyone's talking about Linux. Yeah.

And it's also got some interesting details that Blair on the Linux Gaming subreddit shared. Blair works at Aspire Media. He says their team fluctuates. They have asked, how many people are on the Linux team? He says the team fluctuates because Mac and Linux teams are shared resources. I think this is actually a super common setup.

I bet so, yeah. So it can be as little as 25 or the full company of 70. Actually, that's not true. We have a couple of guys dedicated to Android and an internal IP team working on some secret stuff, so it's more like 60. Here's what I want to underscore. The topic we're about to get into, we're going to talk about stuff from a tools perspective and what end users need perspective. But I want you to keep in the back of your mind also the value judgment that companies

have to make when they watch user bases. Now, we just talked about the Linux user base growing. It's nothing major. We talked about growth there. I want to transition from this and talk about something that I also think is going to contribute to more Linux users, which may change companies like Aspire Media's calculus. It is the elephant in the room, and I know this is a Linux podcast, but there is definitely a Linux angle on this.

And it's what everybody on the internet is freaking out about this week. Yes, oh man. And that is the new MacBooks. The new MacBook Pros with the touch bar. Everybody is freaking out about this. And I guess to highlight, and I won't repeat the things that I've said in Coda Radio this week, but I think it is probably worth touching on the couple of major limitations of the new MacBook. 16 gigs of RAM is going to be a maximum.

It's an unbelievable limitation. I mean, it's just a ridiculous limitation. The cost premium, too, is astronomical on these new MacBooks. It's not like it's got cheaper. Yeah. I feel like this is going to be a prime time to switch a lot of people to Linux, and here's why. System76 has been tweeting a bit about this. They say due to high website traffic after Apple's events, they've had to add more infrastructure.

Emma, the person that takes a lot of the sales calls at System76, tweeted out that she's getting more Apple Switcher calls than she's ever gotten. Wow. Coming into System76 right now. Apple switcher calls than she's ever gotten. Wow. Coming into System76 right now. I want to kind of, and also a long-time Apple blogger, John Gruber over at daringfireball.com, took some shots at System76 as a result of this. So I want to talk about all of this.

But does anybody in the mumble room want to open up with their reaction to the new MacBook? It's all cocky. I mean, when I say why, though, I mean, let's be critical, but let's do it in an informed way. Because, I mean, we can't just hate it because it's Apple. Right. Let's be realistic here. Pretend it's Dell-made it. Yeah, pretend Dell made this or something.

I mean, this seems like, to me, actually you can't do that. See, the reason why you can't do that is Apple is the only company that makes computers that run macOS. True. And so if you require an application on the macOS platform. That's where you're at. You are forced to buy Apple's products. And so I think in this context, it's way more important that Apple gets these product releases right. It's not as easy to forgive a mistake on Apple's case like it is on Dell.

By the way, do any of us give a shit that the XPS 13 has a max of 16 gigs of RAM? Did you know that? No, we don't. No, we don't. Because it's not Apple. Because it's Dell. It's Dell. The Dell XPS 13 that we've all lovingly talked about, the one I own, the one you own,

has a max of 16 gigs of RAM right now. But it doesn't matter because it's one of 100 different products that Dell sells, and it's one of a million different products I can run Linux on. Exactly. So it doesn't matter. But when Apple makes this mistake, when they ship a Pro product that only supports 16 gigs of RAM, there is going to be a class of high-end users that are going to look at that and say, that is a ridiculous limitation, and I'm moving to another platform, and it sure as hell is not going to be Windows.

And it's not just me saying that. This is – there is threat. I thought about doing like just a roundup of all the different hacker news posts and Reddit posts and blog posts and Medium posts about this. There is hundreds of them right now. And you know what? If you do word searches in the comments sections and in these posts, they're talking about switching to Linux. It's wild. But it makes sense, I think. It's interesting. It's because Apple is following the path of we want thin, light, and high battery life.

And so they can't have two SODIMMs to support 32 gigs of RAM. And they're not going to put a GPU in there if they don't have to, or at least a beefy GPU. Because that would take up too much room and reduce battery life, and it would reduce thinness. Yeah, so it appears the true reason behind the lack of 32 gigs of RAM or DDR4 is Intel. Skylake doesn't support LPD DDR4, which LP stands for low power, and Kaby Lake is set to include support but only for U category of chips, so again, no L ddr4 until 2018 in mobile yep surface book only uh surface book only goes up to 16 gigabytes too but if they had

two so dim slots so if they say if they sacrifice some space and some more board real estate they could actually do 32 gigs but they would what other people are doing with DDR4. They're doing two SODIMMs that are 16 gigs each. Now, the argument is those types of boards get way worse battery life. They do. Yeah. And they sacrifice room that you could put batteries in. And I think a lot of Apple professionals would sacrifice battery life to have a machine that is capable. Oh, absolutely. I think Apple didn't make the compromise of having a really high-end workstation replacement machine, and they only went with a lighter, smaller, better battery life type machine. Right. When you're making the play to the everyman Apple product, you miss the people in all the businesses who get their managers to get them the Mac, and then it sits on their desk plugged into nice monitors, and they want it for the nice environment that they're used to and for the Unix command line. And they want it for the nice environment that they're used to and for the Unix command line.

But yeah, if you look at a competing product like the Surface Book Pro, or sorry, the Surface Book, and you look at, say, the X1 Carbon, and you look at the XPS 13, those also gimp and sacrifice the same features that you want on a workstation. Again, though, I say the scale of aggression there or egregion there is much lower. And I'll get into my personal take on it, but I want to give Mosin-Rath a chance to jump in because he thinks we're just hating on the leader. So Mosin-Rath, you go, and i want to get your perspective on it real quick okay you guys were talking about this a few days ago on one of the other shows if i'm not mistaken and my understanding with when i'm hearing all the different arguments and what i'm seeing in the chat room a lot of it tends to be well apple should do this apple should do this but you gotta sit there and think to yourself apple's gonna think of the bottom line so if they don't think that there's gonna be people that are going to want to pay for it based off of the scale that they're going to

price it at we were discussing this in the chat room the other day well not in the chat room and gone the the irc the other day i didn't actually try to do the math, but you guys have complained of how much it costs for stuff for Apple before. The people at, you know, our IP tech syndicate complained about this stuff for Apple before in terms of the prices and the pricing. Do the math yourself. Seriously. Spend some time on the show right now. Go to the website. Do the scale, right?

8 to 16 or 8 to 12 or however you want to do it. Do the arithmetic sequence. See how much would be for the 32. But for anything else about sizing, battery life at all, take a look at where the actual price point according to theirs would be based off of everything else. And then you sit there and ask yourself, who's going to pay for that? If you can't see yourself going to pay for that, then how are you going to see anyone else going to pay for that?

I think the difference that someone would pay for it, they would do it. I think the difference here is that there is a significant amount that like that, that would matter a lot to my, me, my personal life. But for the business world, I'm not going to be paying for it. My company is going to pay for it. And they don't care if it's $2,000 or $3,000 for the most part.

Yeah, I really don't think it's worth. I mean, it's worth mentioning the base price in terms of value to the consumer. But anybody that's going to use these tools to make money is going to think about the price for about two days. to use these tools to make money is going to think about the price for about two days. And then when they get to work and start making revenue based on their work output from this machine, they're not going to care so much that it costs them $3,000 and it's a tax write-off. So the price is worth discussing, but it's absolutely not one of the primary issues. I think hands down, the primary professional issue here is no expandability internally. And these machines only get updated every thousand days. And the 16-gigabyte RAM limitation for anybody that's working in 1080p plus video is atrocious. It is – After Effects – I don't know – unless you've used these tools, you have to understand that they work by caching things in RAM.

That's how they are usable. And you can't work at these resolutions unless you can cache some of this data in RAM. That's how they are usable. And you can't work at these resolutions unless you can cache some of this data in RAM. And if you don't have RAM, you can't use the machine. There's actually the part about the pricing thing. You've got to

point out that Apple has always overcharged for inferior products. They're having a higher price. I don't know if that's totally fair. I think they start with a base configuration that's more competitive, and they don't even bother with a lower-end machine. And then they gouge you on things like RAM and storage a bit. Yeah.

But I want to – okay. You can get every single – even the MacBook Air when it was out, you could get a ZenBook for the same amount amount of hardware for $300, $400 cheaper. Yes, but tell me, how great is Asus support compared to Apple support? There's a lot of things. Apple support is not that good. Apple support is not that good, but you can take it into a store and they can usually fix your issues there. Asus will take at least two months to get back to you.

But again, I don't really want to get into the price. I don't want to get into the price discussion because if I'm going to get a Lenovo laptop or a Dell laptop that's actually worth me using, it's also going to be expensive. See, I think the price thing is a bit of a misnomer in this conversation because I think you can remove it from the conversation and we still have a perfectly viable argument here. And Popey, I wanted to give you a chance to jump in.

So one of the questions you asked was why is it that we hold apple to a standard where we complain that they only have 16 gig yet all these other manufacturers like dell with their with their xps 13 and lenovo with their x1 they don't get the same kind of flag yet they have the similar specs and the simple reason is apple ask for it they put themselves up on a pedestal and do a gigantic pr exercise to get the whole world watching a live stream while they announce their products and if that doesn't get people critiquing their products then i don't know what does lenovo don't do that and so they put out their products people buy them and people move on they don't scrutinize the minutiae of those products anywhere near as much as they do for Apple devices because Apple invite that. So let me tell you about why this matters to me because I've spent the last three weeks trying to exclusively edit segments for the Linux Action Show in Cadian Live. And – ooh, will you check that?

I will, yeah. That might be UPS. Thanks, Wes. UPS just got here. And I have mad respect for the work that project is doing, and I am really happy with their trajectory on where they want to go with it. But it is not, I thought to myself, it's usable for me when I want to produce one 10-minute segment a week.

If I wanted to produce daily video or I wanted to move our entire workflow over to Cadian Live, I still don't think it's, I think it's still, I think it could be six years out from where they're even getting close to Final Cut 10. And the issue is that in the three years that Apple dropped the Final Cut 10 bomb on the world, they've progressively made it better and better and better. And now it's actually a competitive product that is faster in some regards than any other editor in the market. It uses the GPU in a way that most editors don't even get close. And the UI is functional.

And it's one of these applications where if you have very little experience, you can begin to use it. And then as you grow as a professional or as you grow as an editor, you can learn more ways to take advantage of this application. And there is a company – hold on one sec. There is a company behind it that is working with the market. They're working with companies like Canon. They're working with companies like Blackmagic. They're creating hard – they're working with partnerships where they create hardware that works with the product. And that is something that simply KDN Live or OpenShot or Shotcut or any of them simply don't have the resource to do. pool of talent out there that knows how to use Final Cut and is creating Final Cut professional templates that look broadcast good, that you can buy for $25, $30, and then modify for

your own use. And there's nothing like that for the open source projects at any scale, at any quality. And so the fundamental issue is, and you guys can write it off as Crazy Chris and his podcast, but the reality is there is a ginormous market of millions of professionals and businesses now that produce video content for this tiny website you may have heard of called YouTube and many others, and none of them are doing it under Linux because these tools are not good enough. And so people are still going to be buying Macs. And this Mac is less Linux-friendly than any Mac Apple has ever shipped.

So it is, the platform is worse. The people that use these tools are getting locked into a less and less appealing platform and the hardware they are shipping becomes less and less capable of running Linux. I just wanted to ask, you know, if Apple's, you know, if you really think that Apple's the leader and everybody else is trying to follow, or do you think it's the other way around somehow? I mean, I don't know. I think they probably just have 15, 20 years experience making editing software, and they have 15, 20 years of business relationships to make it a viable editor for the companies to support. I think they're kind of experimenting for the future, though. Go ahead, William. What was that?

Yeah, so I think with the whole touchpad thing, I think eventually what they're going to do is turn the whole keyboard into just a big LCD panel, and this is the first step of doing that, and I think it's kind of an interesting change. They're experimenting it with the keys that are less important to you, so it's not your normal QWERTY alphabet keys. It's just the F keys, which you only use every now and then. And eventually, they're going to expand that downward into being the whole body. Maybe. Okay. Popey, I wanted to give you a chance

to jump in, and then I'll go to Moserath. Okay, that's cool. Okay, Moserath, go ahead. Okay, we had this discussion already. I think it was my first or second time I was graciously allowed to talk on your show there about why, with your open source argument, why it is that there's nothing for the open source argument. We already had this discussion. Remember that wish list of yours? One of those things is where all those people go that crump out, that fail out.

those people go that that that crump out that fail out why is it that they don't just link up legion up to one of those open source projects that is hitting it that is working out on the same uh thing where does all that money not go to oh yes open source where does that money go to the people that already are making something so remember you were talking about the 15 to 20 years of? They also have at least 15 to 20 years of cash in hand, cash invested, cash coming in. Notice that word that keeps on showing up, cash. And I say that on purpose because all those open source projects, they're going off of donations. They're going off of people being generous. They're going off of people doing it for the love of it. Or some of them are doing it for the hate of it because they just hate the other products so much. They're just like, I'm going to make something to compare against. I'm

going to make something to compete against it. And until those people, all those legions of people who are doing all that hard work get the same kind of money, get the same kind of backing, get the same kind of backup. And when I of backing get the same kind of backup and when i'm talking about backup i'm talking about those legions upon legions upon legions of people you know people like i'm going to call him out here because he's awesome til nesh here who's brilliant and he's talked about some of the stuff that he's done people like him people like rikai people like yourself people like noah people like west there at the same thing people like alan and people like the other chris without legions of people like them not just two not just five we're talking hundreds of people like that who also have hundreds of thousands of dollars following them to show up to these

projects, they are not going to be at the same level. It's not like a sport where you could sit there and train by yourself and learn the stuff by yourself, like basketball or football or hockey or something like that. Most of those things, you can get yourself to the state where you need to be. And then it's just a matter of getting the equipment it's not like that so you got to remember all the efforts that all these people are doing of course they're going to be playing catch-up they're always going to be playing catch-up until someone gives them the leader position by literally dumping a ton of people and a ton of money and a ton of influence and a ton of equipment in their lap along with a ton of testers.

I do feel like for the basic editing timeline and stuff like that, KDN Live is sitting in a pretty good spot, and they want to continue focusing on polish. And so on that note, Rotten, I wanted to give you sort of the final word on the KDN point. Yeah, I started doing some video tutorials and stuff on YouTube, and I decided to exclusively use only Linux tools and I'm using Caden live for all the editing and everything.

And I, I, I disagree that it's not usable, but I totally, it's usable. Yeah. I totally agree with your point about how it's a, it's very limited and it's so much so that I experienced a couple

crashes just by trying to do an effect that I eventually gave up and just, I created animations in CSS on the web browser. Yeah, I have done a couple of workarounds. So if you watch this most recent segment on the Linux Action Show where I go over to Angela's house and set up Open Media Vault, that was edited under KDN Live. Oh, cool. Wow. Yeah. So, I mean, I've been using it to success, but I'm experimenting with ideas for next year where the output volume needs to go up a lot more.

And so that's where I'm worried about these tools not being up to that task. And I am sort of in a position of somewhat privilege right now thanks to you, Wes, where you set up Arch Linux on my MacBook. Oh, right, yeah. And so if push-pull comes to shove, I can boot in. I got an older version of macOS on there. I wonder what happens if I update that to Sierra. I'm not really compelled to do so, but I have no idea what would happen. You think it'd still boot into Arch?

I mean, I imagine it would change the UEFI variable back so that it would boot into macOS, but you could change that. And I could boot into macOS, do my Final Cut thing, and then boot back into Arch for everything I actually want to do. And so I don't have to have a solution today, and I can continue to try to use KDE Live. But on the same hardware, because I'm just dual booting, there is a 20x speed improvement under Final Cut than there is under Cadian Live.

And it's just where it is right now. I do want to make one more point. Technically, if you look at the track record of development for Cadian Live, they were not working on Cadian Live for like two or three years. They would do a little bug phase here and there. But for the past six, seven months or so, they have made incredible strides. Like they have fixed most of the crashing bugs

on most issues. And the stability is like astronomically better than what it used to be. So I think by far, Kdenlive is the best free editor on any platform. Yeah, I would say it's better than even Lightworks and everything. Yeah, I agree. And I've been really impressed with how well it's done. That's kind of why I wanted to give it some try

the last few weeks. But right, one last thing before we move off of the new MacBooks, just as you might expect, there is already a fart app for the new Touch Bar. It's called Touch Fart, and it's right there. You run it. Three different fart sounds. Yep, yep, and the two emoji and one word that say fart. So it works with TouchFart macOS app to allow a selection of playbacks and predefined fart sounds. Right there on the touch bar. Told you it's useful, Wes. Who needs an escape button?

Yeah, right? Just keep using nano. All you need is a fart bar and a headphone jack. You're good. Yeah, I wonder, does it... Huh, too bad they don't have any preview. Sorry, guys. I can't preview for you.

I think that fart bar will pair well with the cloud to butt extension. Yes, Wes. Well said. Well said. Speaking of the cloud, let's talk about DigitalOcean. DigitalOcean.com. Go build your own cloud over at DigitalOcean.com and use our promo code. Did you know we have a promo code, Wes?

It's DL Unplugged. Did you know that? DL Unplugged. It's new. It's brand new. use our promo code. Did you know we have a promo code, Wes? It's DL Unplugged. Did you know that? DL Unplugged. It's new. It's brand new. Brand new promo code. DL, not really. Be the first to use it.

Yeah. DL Unplugged, one word, lowercase. It'll give you a $10 credit over at DigitalOcean.com, and you can go spin up a droplet in seconds. And they have data centers in New York, San Francisco, Singapore, Amsterdam, London, Toronto, Germany, India. And you can either do a monthly plan, like they start at like $5 a month, or you can do their hourly pricing. I love their $0.03 an hour rig.

They have a simple, intuitive interface and a really nice, straightforward API that's really well supported by the community. You can really just probably take advantage of the code already written. Or you could quickly bang something out because the API is well documented. And, man, speaking of documentation, they've got tons of good documentation over at DigitalOcean. You'll be impressed in the community section. There's a how-to up

that was posted just three hours ago on how to configure NextCloud on Open 21604. Yeah. So you can go build your own cloud

over on DigitalOcean with NextCloud. It's such a neat like symbiotic relationship between the open source community and DO. Yeah. Yeah. And I like that they work with the upstream projects or like the different distros and even FreeBSD that they have on the systems.

That's really cool. It's in Dio's interest to let you run whatever you want. Like, that's what they're there for, and they're great at it. You want to go kick the tires on something or throw it in production? Go to DigitalOcean.com and use our promo code DioUnplugged. And a big thanks to DigitalOcean for sponsoring the Unplugged program. Okay. Guys, you know I'm always looking for something to replace the Chromecast

and the Roku. And your Amazon stick, Chris. I do have a fire here at the studio and I hate it. I'm sorry, fire lovers. I got it and I hate it. But you know what else? I would love to eventually replace my Shield TV. I had an upgrade.

Big props to NVIDIA. They ship monthly updates to this thing, so you get the monthly Android updates. Can I use it as a phone? I know, right? And so I installed the latest update, and it began rebooting every three minutes. Yikes. And I thought I was in a bad situation. So I had to do like a mad dash, uninstall applications, which turns out for some reason on Android TV,

if you go into the Android mechanism inside the system settings to uninstall applications, it doesn't uninstall the application. No. You have to go through the Play Store. So I went through the Play Store, found each application, uninstalled them, and then it finally stopped rebooting. And even though I love the Shield TV, it's the best set-top box I've ever had, it sort of made me look for something else.

Because for a good solid 25 minutes, I got to explain. It's the weekend. It is the Pacific Northwest. Precious relaxation time. It was pouring down rain outside. It was miserable. Slash beautiful. Yeah.

At times, it was like also like right as I needed to go trick-or-treating. So kids went trick-or-treating on Saturday. And about a half hour before they went trick-or-treating, it stopped raining. Nice. And I was like, this is perfect. But earlier in the morning at about like 10 a.m., it was miserable outside. And I'm like, okay, let's watch a movie. Well, watch a movie.

And dad goes to start a movie, and it starts rebooting all the time. And there is nothing worse as a father when you go to like, here, children, here's the media system I've set up, powered by all these fancy things that I've figured out. Oh, isn't that great? And I've got this movie on demand. Oh, what? And it reboots. And then you're sitting there like, oh, just a second, just a second.

I'll fix it. Yeah, yeah. So that got me looking at Remix.io, a Nougat-powered, all-in-one, 4K device that you hook up to your television. You know your television, Wes, where you have the Android Shield TV hooked up right now? That's right. You maybe hook this up instead. It's something that's on Kickstarter.

It's got 3,960 backers. 17 days to go. They had a goal of $250,000. And holy smokes, they've already blown past that. And they're at $484,000. I hope this doesn't get us pulled down but you can probably guess what they're doing right now Danger is better Whatever

I know how a TV works Yeah, but can your TV do this? Flashing my cleanse in one click. So what do you think of a UI on your television that uses a mouse and keyboard? I have mixed feelings,

at least about its wide replicability, but, you know, maybe you get one of those little Logitech wireless ones with the built-in trackpad. Or it includes its own. Let's just say it comes with a nice wireless keyboard mouse setup, maybe a remote combo. And this is a little Android box. You set it up on your television, and you can play, you know, you can play Android. A mouse works surprisingly well with Android. It's like they intended it to have a mouse.

Would you? No? You instantly don't like it? You wouldn't do it? No, I think I would. I mean, I have a Mate box running on a TV, so I think I'm open to it. Honestly, it might be my preferred way. I think I would still like it.

Do you know how many people email me and say, my media center is VLC hooked up to my PC? Right. For me, it's Kodi, but same thing. Yeah. And this is by the same people who do the Remix OS, right? Yes. And remind me, Remix OS. That's the Android Spin 4 x86.

Yeah. The one that we've actually, I think, featured as a – I don't know if we've viewed it on this show or we featured it on last, but we talked about it not too long ago. I think I even have it on the USB stick still floating around. So they got the Remix IO, which is $99, a 4K TV box, an Android game console. And then they have the Remix IO Plus, $130, a performance beast to bring out the potential of your TV. What the? So is this running on an ARM board?

Do we know? Is it x86? How do I get the potential out of my TV? Is that what you're asking? Yeah, it is a ARM processor, yeah. The RK399 with four gigs of RAM. Okay, four gigs. That doesn't sound bad.

No, not bad. No fans either, they say, so that's kind of nice. I'm going to take that. What do you think? Anybody in the Mumbroom have any thoughts on this thing? I remember that Popey talked about the license of Remix OS when we talked about Remix OS for the first time. Oh, can you remind me?

I don't recall. Did I? I think, in fact, you're giving China access to your computer, I think. That sounds like Popey. Don't think that was me. He hates the Chinas. I remember hearing they were completely ignoring the GPL

in some cases. It's been claimed that they've violated the GPL and Apache licenses. We're about to get to that topic, as a matter of fact, in a little bit. You guys in the Mumble room, you know why I'm covering this. I've been desperate to replace the Chromecast, and I would love to have something that is usable, that has actual useful streaming apps like Netflix and Hulu on it or whatever it is.

Yeah, that's the big challenge. Whatever. On a device that I can hook up to my television, and honestly, I'd like to be able to buy a couple of them. I'd like it to be something that's a product. Affordable enough, something that you can, you don't have to build it yourself. And it can run Kodi. It has to run Kodi?

Is that a requirement? Well, I think so. Because like, is the Roku not good enough? Just curious, because I was actually thinking about going the Roku route. If you want to use Plex, the Roku's good enough. The Plex app has gotten, just in the last six months, nine months, the Plex app has gotten pretty good on the Roku. But if you want to use Kodi, and I honestly feel like Kodi is a better experience.

Do you really care what the hardware is? No, I don't so much, as long as it's something that is sustainable. Are you more interested in the software that's running on it? I am more interested in having access to Kodi and Netflix. The software like Kodi and Plex and stuff. Yeah, and Netflix, yeah. That's really true. And I want something that I can plug in and, God, I would just love to not have to worry

about it for three or four years. Like, I would love something that I could run for three or four years. Something that, like, had the notion to support the open source stacks that you're going to run but could also interface with the proprietary stuff and was an appliance. Yeah. Roku looks awesome for the price and what you get. It's the kind of thing I'd like as well. What are you doing right now?

Do you have a Roku or do you have a device like it? Chromecast. No. So whenever you guys want to watch... I would like something that I could install on. So anytime you want to watch something on the TV, you're using your phone to cast it? Or a computer. Hmm.

That's a lot of work. That's how we do it here in the studio, too. It's a lot of work. And it doesn't always, like, sometimes the phone loses connection with the playback control, and that's really frustrating. YouTube in particular? Yeah. Which just doesn't make any sense. Or you, like, get the volume, and then you can't. The volume's all frustrating. YouTube in particular? Yeah, which just doesn't make any sense.

Or you, like, get the volume and then you can't. The volume's all offset. Yeah. The other thing, too, is if you don't have an Android TV and you haven't experienced this, the YouTube app on Android TV is actually really good. Really? It's my favorite YouTube experience. It's way better than on the desktop.

I feel like it surfaces more interesting videos than the desktop does. And it displays them in a way that's easier for me to see them. Playback is phenomenal. You don't get comments. You can't click on like when people say like click this link or something. Oh, it doesn't support that. Annotations or anything like that. But for just playback and the way

it buffers really intelligently and it auto scales the resolution perfectly, which trust me, I'm working on MiFi here. It really does a good job. 240p is your best friend. Since I've gotten the Shield TV, it has transformed my television watching.

I have stopped watching traditional television. I only got to season one of Mr. Robot, and I stopped watching. Yeah, me too. Because I'm watching everything on YouTube now. It's really kind of fun because I'm getting what feels like much more real, genuine content. Yeah, exactly.

And it has, thankfully, pretty good Linux support and interface too. Yeah. And so we'll see. We'll see. I'm on a mission to eventually... I would like that top box that I could get for family members for Christmas or I could get for myself. The Shield TV is very expensive and it feels like it's not NVIDIA's even top three priority.

So like, what's my long term? Am I going to get three years out of this? Right. I'll be impressed. They could drop that shift, whatever, at any time. It is a good demonstration of their chipset platform. So from that perspective, it's particularly fun because there are some great games on there. Right.

And it has sort of a console-like experience. It's a tuned, complete little package. But you know what I kind of fantasize about is like an Intel NUC type thing, but with a real GPU running SteamOS with Kodi included in it. It's SteamOS but it's primarily a Kodi box. In Kodi there's like a SteamOS option. Oh, like a Kodi

plugin to list your games. And then it flips over to a SteamOS desktop which is running big picture mode or something like that. Maybe it's even like X on another... Yeah. On another TTY or something. And it's like its own dedicated big picture mode. And then I've got a full-fledged SteamOS machine. And then if there was some sort of in-menu,

I could flip back to the Kodi experience, and now I have a multimedia machine. Even if it's got to be like a little PC, I would love to have... That would be amazing. That's what I want. And I want it to run SteamOS because then it's more of a Linux box,

and I can play the games I really like. See, the one thing here... You wouldn't want it to run SteamOS because then it's more of a Linux box, and I can play the games I really like. You wouldn't want it to run SteamOS at the moment because it's just broken and crashes. Oh, well, okay. With the caveat that SteamOS isn't sucking at the time. Okay, one of the better runtimes for Steam and then the Steam games. See, I think the caveat for me is I kind of enjoy some of the Chromecast that I can sit and then queue something up easily.

That is nice about Android TV. I'd like them to build the Chromecast stuff into Shield. The Shield has it. I've been to SteamOS. That's a nice thing too. You still have that functionality with Android TV. I think I've seen a couple attempted open source type replacements

or even something where you could take a link and then get a plugin that could go like, hey, send this to my Kodi box and play that you know play the link from youtube with youtube dl uh michael's working on that yeah yeah yeah go tell them about it yeah it's a cast spell with a k for cody and uh it's basically exactly that it's it's it's more of a plugin structure like you just mentioned where you tell it a url and then the plug-in figures out what add-on and what player in Kodi. Oh, that sounds beautiful. Kodi already does that using the Core app.

No, that's just on the phone. That doesn't work on the desktop, so you can't send the information on your desktop. It only works on your phone. So the Core app is fantastic for the solution of the phone, but it doesn't support every single plug-in structure. So I'm going to try to submit some of my code to the Core app so they can fix the arbitrary add-ons that are not necessarily common. And then that's basically the idea,

is just to take the casting idea and put it to the improved core and also make a laptop version. So you can just, my version actually works with local files on your computer as well. Oh, that's, that's, that is slick.

I'm going to, I'm going to check that out tonight. Yeah, that is. Yeah. I love Cody. I just love it so much. It's come so far.

I got the U. Mine uses Samba for the local stuff, and it's going to use NFS as well. Nice. I've been really, it's such a simple, obvious plug-in, and I forget what it's called. I've mentioned the name before, though, so it is linked somewhere in the JB site. It is just the dumbest extension or plug-in or whatever you call it on Kodi that just plays the next file in order. Like Netflix does when you get to the end of a Netflix episode, it auto-plays the next episode.

This just auto, so if you're watching DuckTales, and you've got two seasons of DuckTales, and you're on season one. You know what you're doing for the next 12 hours. Yeah, you've got automatic DuckTales. Yeah, right? And so that's, I love that feature. I love it because I can just sit back, and I don't have to look for the remote. It's nice to be able to modify it in a way that feels like it's genuinely my setup.

Also, I want to encourage you to make something also feel like your own, and that's your education. LinuxAcademy.com slash unplugged. Linux Academy just announced another round of funding. Huge congrats. That's great. Yeah. Every time they do this, they invest deeply into Linux Academy content. They get staff on board to make sure old content stays relevant.

They get new staff to write the good stuff that you've been looking for with products that are exploding right now. They have research and development. And, of course, they even have instructors that you can access to get real mentoring from a human being. Linuxacademy.com slash unplugged. Hands-on scenario-based labs that give you real-world experience. You get to SSH into the server and own it and bang around. It altered the distro based on your preference. That way you can learn on the distro you need.

You can prepare for a cert using their practice exams and quizzes. And I think one of the things that I like is these features that we're introducing that involve the community. First of all, I like that the community is stacked full of Jupyter Broadcasting members. But they have these custom randomized decks of cards where you can study and practice. And these cards can be forked by community members and improved upon, kind of like an open source project. Another thing they've recently introduced is public profiles. So you can brag or demonstrate the hard work you've been doing at Linux Academy. They've got also courses if you want to get your search and new iOS and Android apps.

They're busting out new stuff all the time, and now they just secured another round of funding. It's just going to get better. It's going to keep going. They've recently also launched seven-day free trials. Free? Seven-day free trials. You can go get a little taste over at Linux Academy. LinuxAcademy.com slash unplugged.

And a big thank you to Linux Academy for sponsoring the Unplugged program. LinuxAcademy.com slash unplugged. And a big thank you to Linux Academy for sponsoring the Unplugged program. linuxacademy.com slash unplugged. That was my Fox News swish. Did that work? I think it landed. I'm just going to say that regardless. No one tell him otherwise. It's supposed to sound a little bit like this.

Speaking of breaking news, this happened a couple of weeks ago, but we just got the audio and video online this week. Linux maintainer Greg KH, he supports the LTS kernel, the USB subsystem, and a bunch of other subsystems that are absolutely essential to the function of your Linux box. And he's been around in Linux development since, well, forever. And he was at a Linux Foundation event, and he was doing a fireside chat. Ooh, did you hear the bombing? We have a bomber plane. Oh, no.

Duck and cover, everybody. They knew we were about to talk about this. They knew this was coming. And he had a couple of choice quotes. We were just talking about licensing and other things like that. And I wanted to kind of jump in on some of this, but let's start with an interesting stat. Do you have a rough guess, Wes, how many people join the Linux kernel development team per month? Man, I have no idea.

Let's go with 10. Okay. I actually would have guessed like four. Because, you know, it seems like a pretty tight-knit team, right? I would have guessed like four. Greg actually shares the number with us. And it turns out, Wes, it's a bit larger. But we have high school students working on the kernel.

But, I mean, there's always new people. Our community, again, 200 new developers every three months. That's huge. 200 to 300? Is that what you just said? Community, again, 200 new developers every three months. That's huge. So we have people coming in.

Yeah, and it's not, I mean, we're not just talking about young people. People who switch from other industries, right? There's a whole, there's a learning curve no matter where you're coming from. Now catch this little stat. If you look at Seattle, that's where I used to live, Seattle is filled with ex-Microsoft developers working on Linux right now. Amazon, Facebook, Google,

Valve, all ex-Microsoft developers contributing to Linux, which is great. We want those engineers, we want those people, and they're doing really good stuff there. I didn't know he moved out of the Seattle area. I was always going to go have dinner with Craig. We want those engineers. We want those people. And they're doing really good stuff there. I didn't know he moved out of the Seattle area. Yeah. I didn't need that. I thought he was on Mercer Island.

I was always going to go have dinner with Greg. Right. Yeah. Just waiting. Wait. Does anybody in the mobile room know where Greg lives now? Anybody? Shatter, anybody want to go be creepy and find out?

Because I've been fantasizing about getting a burger with Greg for a while now and recording that. So that's got to be a thing. That's still got to happen. All right. But that's not what was interesting. I thought that was a fun to know fact. Just a tidbit. But we recently tried to cover the two very different approaches to license enforcement that are developing in the Linux kernel.

There's the Greg Linus method of a long burn, work with these people over a decade. the Greg Linus method of a long burn, work with these people over a decade. And then lazily, you could say there's the software conservancy method where you try to work with them and when things fail, you quickly escalate to lawsuits. And Greg was asked about that. And I think you can tone, you can tell by the tone and you can tell by the slight awkwardness at the beginning, this is an extremely sensitive topic for Greg and the Linux Foundation and the Linux community. So pay attention to sort of the awkwardness of this question too. Healthy discussion on the kernel summit mailing list on the topic of licenses.

And how can I describe it? You're going to let me go here? I'm going to let you go. Well, as much as you want. There are some interesting points raised. And I guess, well, let me, do you want to describe the discussion? I think you probably remember it. Awkward.

Yes. So the discussion came up about GPL enforcement and what to do about that. And people's statements saying, making the claim that if we don't enforce the GPL, it's the same as the BSD license. And I called bullshit on that. Oh, dang. That's flat out false. Because that's not true. That's flat out false.

And what we're seeing these days, I mean, yes, people violate our license. That always happens. It's gotten better. I don't know if anybody remembers the 1990s when people were shipping closed source Ethernet drivers, SCSI drivers, controller drivers, everything. It was crazy.

We are a lot, lot better. One of the biggest violators of the GPL used to be Intel. And now they're our biggest supporter. On more ways than one, financial, code, contributions, everything else. And that

happened due to us working with them. And so my main point about GPL compliance is everybody owns their copyrights. You're free to do however you wish with those copyrights and enforcing them and getting the code. But use your judgment. The judgment should be not necessarily you have to get the code because if you go into a company with lawyers knocking on the front door, you're going to get – the walls are going to come down and you're going to alienate everybody in that company. Let's stop right there. I think this is such a key argument. And it's one that if you come at it from a pure legal argument or a raw analysis of

the license, that it doesn't resonate. It doesn't make sense to you. And this is where the software conservancy is coming from. And it's easy to be on that, right? Like we want to protect these rights. That's what the license is about. But you also have to consider the bigger picture. you fail to understand how important that particular process is. And what he's talking about here is when we get into these legal enforcement battles, these companies shut down and any contributions we were going to get go away and all of the naysayers in the company are all of a sudden proven right. Use your judgment. The judgment should be not necessarily you have to get the code

because if you go into a company with lawyers knocking on the front door, you're going to get – the walls are going to come down, and you're going to alienate everybody in that company that was using Linux because inside every company when you start using Linux, you have two camps. One is like, oh, those hippies and punks. We can't use this crazy stuff. And you convince them, and you finally get that. And if one of those people, those crazy hippies and punks,

shows up at the front door with a lawyer, boom, you proved them right. You were wrong. Doors come down. Everything works bad. But if as a developer, you go to that same company and contact the developers in there and say, hey, what can I do to help you get your code merged into the kernel? And that's a totally different way of working with them. That says, hey, the community is willing to work with you, willing to invest their time with you, willing to make your product better. And that's the best way to work forward. We have seen it time and time again that when you go in with lawyers or representatives of the developers and not the developers themselves, the walls come

down, all contact gets shut off. I'm working with a silicon company today that has been shipping Linux on their product for eight, nine years. No code has ever come out of them. The developer side, the company reached out. I met some of them. And they're saying, help us. I'm like, okay, great. We'll work with you.

And the thing is, the code from this company is usually almost always is crap. We don't want that code. We really don't. I mean, you want to get that one device working, but you really want is that company and those developers in that company to become part of our community and enable us to grow. Because the only way we're going to survive is if we continue to grow and continue to bring more people in.

We're going to age out. We pass away. We move on to other things. We need more people in our community in order to survive. So you work with that company. You make them reliant on Linux. You make them realize that working with the community actually saves them time and money, which has been proven over and over and over.

And then they're now reliant so much on Linux that they have to invest. They are part of the community. They rely on it. And it works. Look at all the sponsors and look at all the people who have been contributing to Linux over time. Again, I'll point out is Intel is the perfect poster child for this. They now do everything on Linux, and they used to be our worst violator. It can happen.

Things can change. And we're in it for the long haul. We don't want just the instant code dump. We want you to work together and become part of our community. We're in it for the long haul. We don't just want the instant code dump. I like this. I like everything about this. Mosin-Reth, you had a comment on it. Go ahead.

Mosin-Reth. Oh, sorry, Mosin-Reth. You're muted. Start over again. That was my bad. Sorry about that. Okay. So I believe that you guys had this argument a few times over on both Linux Unplugged as well as Linux Action Show. Are you accusing me of repeating because these clips are brand new, sir.

These are brand new clips. Brand new. Certified. The clips are new. The clips are brand new. But the argument is an old one. Which argument would you say that is? Enforcement?

Yeah. As Talyn has put it right there, coders versus lawyers in terms of do you want to take the open hand or do you want to take the open hand or do you want to take the closed fist but as i remember watching um actually i wasn't watching it was reading it in a comic book the closed fist can still be used to protect whereas the open hand can be used to harm so the end result is you have to sit there and take each company as a fresh approach you take the most genial the the most open approach. You start with that one first

and you work your way down the line because as they said, you know, they used to have beef with Intel. Intel could have said, hey, you know this open source thing? You guys don't have real lawyers and stuff like that. We do.

We now own you, your family, your entire genetic line, your computers, your cars, everything. Thank you for being our work slaves. Enjoy. They could have done that because it's Intel, much like Apple, much like Google. Now they had the money to do that. So, but they, instead they were just like, you know what? We want them to use our product in a fashion that everyone can benefit. So we're going to just walk to them real nice and talk to them real nice first,

see if they see things from our perspective first before showing up with lawyers, quote, unquote, you know, showing up with like, you know, the FDA or whichever, you know, law enforcement it is kicking down the door and saying, you stole our stuff. Yeah, I would say what I think, what I like to look at this situation as regular everyday Linux users, it's happening at a level that is really kind of obscure to us. We're not really cognizant of these kinds of things going on. But there is between the core contributors to the kernel and the software conservancy, which is a new group set up. I mean there is a new level of argument brewing that we don't really have any involvement with. We can only just sit back and watch.

And it doesn't directly affect us, yet it could have long-term ramifications. And it's fascinating that there's this disconnect there. There's this whole thing brewing under the surface, and we just get little glimpses of it from time to time. I think it's been an argument, as Moserath was pointing out, it's been a conversation for as long as this has been a particular issue, especially as GPL software has begun to get widespread adoption. I think it really marks the distinction between the Linux community and the wider GPL community, free software community, et cetera.

the wider GPL community, free software community, et cetera. And I wonder if it's not turning to a more significant volume now, now that you have the conservancy and you have new offenders that are in the mobile space that are particularly egregious. ARM platform has a lot of issues around it. I wonder if it's not being ratcheted up to a new level now. I don't want to go as far as to call it a cold war because that feels like it's adding a hype spin that's undeserved, sort of like that airplane bomber in the background. But I do feel like it is definitely something that desperately is getting close to needing a resolution. And I don't know if there's one on the horizon because there's some big fiefdoms being set up.

Because there's some big fiefdoms being set up, and you have people that are in positions that are – I guess what I'm trying to say is I'm worried that people like Greg and Linus could eventually get burned out by this kind of stuff. Or there could be some sort of developer loss as this battle goes on, and that's the part I look at and wonder if it will have longer ramifications on the quality of Linux code. That's the only kind of point. I know that's an extrapolation, but if you think about it, if I'm Greg and I'm 20-plus years, I'm whatever, into this, you know what? I've made my bones. I've made my reputation. I don't need this bullshit. I don't need to go to events carrying two lawyers because of what this has led to.

I don't need that hassle. You know two lawyers because of what this is, what this has led to. I don't need that hassle. You know what? Guys, I've made my peace. Good luck with everything. I'm moving on. I don't think that's a reasonable thing when you're getting down. Because as somebody in Greg's position, you have to look at this and go, this is obvious. You are getting in the way of my ability to make this thing better. And all I want to do is make this a better thing. And you're making it harder for me to do that. And I've dedicated my life to this and I'm done with this. That doesn't seem like an unreasonable position for someone that's worked as long as he has to do this.

And I'm sure it can feel like other people who may feel that they have a legitimate claim or are representing those who do have a legitimate claim. I can see how that might feel like an outside influence that's trying to hurt or do something that you don't feel is best. You know, imagine, say, Greg or somebody like Greg felt they're on the precipice to finally getting a company to come along and really get involved at Linux. And another group starts up a legal battle and it totally shuts down all of the progress you've been making for the last three years. How excruciatingly frustrating would that be? And that's where I worry it's going. WW, you want to jump in? Go ahead, sir. Well, I do understand your—I fully acknowledge that your point of him possibly getting burned out and getting sick of being open and just trying to be nice to people and get them

in. I don't think when he does get people in, that's all he's doing. When you really want to impart something to a lot of people and you want to make it great and open source, you don't just want to impart just the code. You want to impart your passion and what drives you to do this and put in the effort that you do to make it great and open source. And I would like to think that maybe Greg and others of similar mindset would

be putting in that effort to have people not just contribute back and contribute open source code, but to that they try to contribute that sentiment that they feel of why they're doing this to other people so that they continue to have that feeling and they continue to want to make open source great. Yeah, I think you're probably right. I hope so. And, you know, why don't we wrap this all up on a more positive, just sort of funny tongue-in-cheek note. Why the hell does the Linux kernel team

still use email for so many damn things? So doesn't the reliance on dusty old email, doesn't that just make us look like a bunch of old gray beards, you know, like get off my lawn type? So, you know, it's 2016. I mean, come on, Greg. Email, that's our patch review system. Can we do better?

Give me the 30-second pitch. 30-second pitch is there's nothing else better. There's nothing else faster. There's nothing else more in There's nothing else faster. There's nothing else more in use by the whole world. Email, plain text works great for people who can't use GUIs, have intermittent email access to the Internet, English is not their first language,

and connectivity issues again. And for review, I mean, as proof in the talk before mine, I reviewed 53 patches and accepted 13 of them in 15 minutes. And Garrett, there's no way. There you go. Craig don't need no slack. Although, seriously, you should check out

Mattermost and Matrix. Or Rocket Tracks. Yeah, Matrix. And then eventually maybe one of them. Well, I think with Matrix Matrix they'll all work together. Oh, it's beautiful. You know what else works together? Our Mumble Room.

Go over to jblive.tv on a Tuesday. Do Bang Mumble. You'll get the info. And join us. You just have to have a working mic. And you can join our virtual log. The times are at jupiterbroadcasting.com slash calendar. Get your topic into the show at linuxactionshow.reddit.com.

Send your emails to jupiterbroadcasting.com slash contact. And be sure to join us right back here next Tuesday. Say goodbye, Wes. Goodbye, everybody. Bye. I secretly use Arch Linux. Damn, Popey made it for the whole show. Mad respect, sir. Mad respect.

I hope you had at least yourself something delicious to sip on while you sat there. Hold on, sorry. Muted. Earlier here. Hello, sorry. Say again. Say again, sorry. Daylight savings here means it's an hour earlier.

Oh, right. That happens this Sunday here in the States. We have a double last coming up this Sunday, by the way, everybody. And it's getting screwed by daylight savings. Although I'll have an extra hour of sleep. So it's interesting. Yeah, you guys already did that. That was Bush thing, huh?

Oh, man. It's still confusing. The whole thing. How many years later has, huh? Yeah. Oh, man. It's still confusing. The whole thing. How many years later has it been since this got out of sync and it's still confusing? Yep. Well, I'm glad you made it, Popey. I really appreciate it. Woo-hoo.

Woo-hoo. All right, JBTitles.com. I think you had some connection issues earlier. I don't know why you couldn't get in. Yeah, I saw that. He sent me a note. That sucks. That sucks.

Hey, you know what I forgot to mention during the Cadian Live discussion is today I've been shooting a video behind the scenes here at JB just a little bit, bits and pieces, specifically to do an editing comparison in Cadian Live and an editing comparison in Final Cut. It's like science. If I remember, I will do follow-up next week on the episode and tell you. So let's all remind him. Yeah. I am supposed to ask you something before I start, Popey. Are you...

Have you bailed already? Yeah, no, he's still there. He's still there. I guess I'm supposed to ask you... What was it? It's... I forgot. I forgot what it is I was supposed to ask you.

Oh, I'm supposed to ask you about, quote, the cloud being other people's computers. Oh. No. No? What is that? Whoa, whoa, what am I stepping into here? What is this?

What am I, what is it? Did Noah put you up to this? I think, I think maybe if you go three steps removed, that may be the case. I'm not sure. It's been passed to me through a series of messengers who, uh, anonymous angels. I'm sure you and I have had this conversation. Have we? What is it? I don't remember much these days, but I do

seem to recall... I get irritated when people say it, because it doesn't have to be the case. The cloud or the cloud is other people's computers? Which one? The cloud is other people's computers, because the fact is that doesn't have to be the case. You can have your own orchestration of computers that you could call a cloud, and it's your own private computers. There doesn't have to be the case. You can have your own orchestration of computers that you could call a cloud, and it's your own private computers.

It doesn't have to be someone else's. Would you agree, though, when people say the cloud, they're generally referring to hosted services? They're generally referring to a public cloud, but you could still have a private cloud as well. Yeah, well, of course. Which is your own. Yeah, of course. But you could – I mean I think in general when people refer to the cloud, they're referring to Azure, Amazon, DigitalOcean, Rackspace, microservices, things like that. That's what they're referring to, I think, don't you?

It depends who you ask, because for some people, cloud is Dropbox. And for other people, cloud is just a picture on a diagram. It depends who you ask. And I think you and people of your level of intelligence saying that know exactly what it means and i think you know what public and private clouds are i feel like it's like private clouds or like local clouds could be the fog i'm looking across the room wow at my next cloud box right yeah i guess i see your point but i also feel like it's good to remind people that the cloud can also be a sort of a marketing obfuscation tool. Sure.

It can be. But it's not a blanket. Whenever I hear it, it's always seen as like this is the only state. Like the cloud is somebody else's computer. Fact. End of story. And that just doesn't tell the whole story. I think that's because when most people set up a server, they't call it the cloud they call it my server but that's because

they only have one if they had multiple then they would call it like i call mine i don't i don't call i have i have a bunch of servers i don't call it my cloud no but mine orchestrate with each other in a way that it's not important which one i'm actually hitting okay well so then that okay you okay all right so it's more sort of, and you can't really tell where you're actually going necessarily. I'll tell you, honestly, I genuinely prefer this version because it makes the cloud less bullshitty hype. But I still think the main issue is, if you were to take a room of a thousand geeks, say like you're at a conference, and ask them, what's the cloud?

I think they would all think it's services hosted by a third party. I think to an end user where the cloud terminology is important, it's just to emphasize that they don't have to worry about storing their own data. That someone else is going to handle that. When I think of cloud, I think of managed infrastructure.

Yeah, exactly. It's something they don't have to worry about. And you pay for it. And you have a contract and you have a service level agreement with that company and you know they're providing a service in the same way that you're paying for your utilities at home hey it's not the water utilities it's somebody else's water

it's bullshit it's not okay I like that argument too I still feel like though that this is pretty down in the weeds and that's your main core issue with this, is it's so far down the weeds. It's like arguing that you shouldn't call tissue paper Kleenex. No, no, no, no. It's just that I don't like that that's the only side of the argument that's ever expressed.

And it's used as a stick to beat cloud, as if cloud is a bad thing and you should never use it because it's somebody else's computer. It's bullshit. All your services were already running on someone else's computer. They were just maybe doing it less scalably. Yeah, yeah. I guess I see your point. I see your point. I just don't see like it's – I think that's a losing battle.

It's a language battle that's been lost. It is. But thanks for bringing it out. Yeah. I guess you know what I like. How about this one build your own cloud yeah I've done that

thanks