LINUX Unplugged - Episode 194: Internet of Troubles | LUP 194

Episode Date: April 26, 2017

Linux Foundation thinks they have the solution to the Internet of Terrible & they might actually be right. We’ll share the exclusive interview that has us excited for the future.Plus the bad, horrible, no good week that Docker had & more!

Wes, what do you think? Nintendo and Super Nintendo, good game consoles or greatest game consoles ever? Here we are almost 30 years later and people are still remaking these games, replaying these games. We're watching right now on the live stream the automatic 3D-ification of an NES game, which started out as a bit of a ruse because there's this April 1st conference where people have published fake research. It's been going on for years. And as usual, this guy over here, we've got a link to the blog post. I think his name is Tom. He created an NES emulator that actually renders the NES game in legit 3D.

So manual steps involved, but best game console or greatest? I'm going to throw my PlayStation 4 right out the window. What do I need it for when I can have this? VR, vSmart, I want this. Yeah. I mean, it does say something about the enduring value of these games. Yeah. You know what it tells you?

You code something really well once, and you make people love it, and it sticks around. It's part of the culture forever. Yeah. It's almost open source by default. Yeah, exactly. This is Linux Unplugged, episode 194 for April 25th, 2017. Welcome to Linux Unplugged, your weekly Linux talk show that's celebrating International Penguin Day. My name is Chris.

My name is Wes. It really is legitimately. Well, that's great. I know. I'm very excited because we've got a great show to celebrate. Yes. Tux's birthday. It's officially Tux's birthday. Happy birthday, Tux. The mascot of Linux.

Yeah, coming up on this week's episode of the Unplugged program, I'm not going to say we're going to talk about SystemD. We're actually going to talk about the total lack of SystemD. Yeah, that's totally different. That is totally different, and it's coming up at the end of the show. So if you have no interest, you'll be able to tune out before we get there. But first, the Linux Foundation has made their largest announcement in the history of the Foundation. Whoa. I'm not sure if a lot of people history of the Foundation. Whoa.

I'm not sure if a lot of people are talking about it. Yeah. But I actually have some exclusive footage that I've been sitting on for three weeks. I wasn't allowed to tell you about. And I will play it for you today. Now, the Linux Foundation has made their announcement. So that's coming up in the show. Plus, of course, we're going to go through some updates

on our favorite open source projects. And it turns out, I know a lot of you love it. I know it. But I got some bad news. Thunderbird is on the ropes. And it's not coming from me. It's coming from the developers of the project. And it's really thanks to improvements coming to Firefox that robbed Thunderbird. So we'll be talking about what's

all going on there and why you should actually care, even if you're not a Thunderbird user. And trust me, there are some reasons. Some drama going on with some Unity 8 ports. We're going to clarify some announcements that were on the show last week and big changes coming to Debian. But before we can get to any of that, Wes, we've got to bring in that mobile room. Heck yeah. Time-appropriate greetings, Virtual Lug. Hello. Hello.

You know, you guys, I think if we practice a little bit after the show, we could make a pretty good singing group. Sometimes they nail that. A little acapella up in here. That's what I was thinking, Wes. That sounds great. Yeah. Just something we'll play with.

Just something we'll play with. But that'll be after the show. Let's start with some news. Let's start with some updates. And I wanted to follow up on something that we started talking about last week. And we were literally just talking about it before I hit the go button on the show. And there's a group of Linux users. You might not be one of them, Wes.

I'm not one of them. But there's definitely a group of Linux users now that are looking for replacements to Unity. They're coming from Unity and they're looking for maybe another desktop environment to land on. Is it GNOME with some extensions? Is it Budgie? Is it Plasma? Is it XFCE? Probably haven't looked in a while.

There's a lot of options now. Yeah, and one of the things you might notice when you're making the transition is every now and then things will look out of place. They won't look quite right. And it's nice if you can kind of smooth things out, make everything look like it belongs on the same desktop. And I don't know if it's just because

of Canonical's announcement, but it seems like there's a lot of energy around GNOME themes. And I want to just follow up on this one, which I thought was pretty great because it makes Qt apps feel at home on the GNOME desktop. It's Adwadia Qt. It's a theme that you can get for Plasma desktop applications, and it will match the default GNOME theme. Now, I'm not going to sit here and assume that you would run Edwardia like an animal. I'm assuming you're probably running Arc. But if you're not, this could be very useful.

Actually, even if I was on Arc or ArcDark, I would still like my Qt apps to look as close to a gnome app as possible. Right, yeah, this is better than what they're natively looking like. Yeah, and a lot of folks do run Edwardia by default. I think they're insane, but they do it. Once you have it installed, you set it as the theme for your Qt apps. If you're on GNOME, you can run qt-config to do this. Or you could start the Qt app specifically on the command line

with tax style space Edwardia. I'm not going to do that. No. I'm not going to do that. No, but if you have, like, one Qt application and you want to just add it to the desktop shortcut. Make an alias. Yeah. So your desktop shortcut would work well.

Can I stop calling him cute now? Can I just say QT? Can we? Is that okay? Can we? Hey, Mumble Room, is anybody going to get offended? Anybody in the Mumble Room going to get triggered if I just refer to this as QT application instead of cute?

Will everybody be okay? If anybody's going to get triggered, say something. Go on once. Oh, go ahead. Monkey, you're going to get triggered? No. Oh. dang. I was excited there for a second. What were you going to say, Monkey? What were you going to say then?

I was going to say, I don't need my safe space. I'm good. Well, dang it. All right. Well, there goes all the fun for this show. There goes all the clicks. Anyways, you can find out a link. You can find a link to this in the show notes. I find this whole process to be really interesting. I think in all of this, I'm going to end up switching back to GNOME myself.

I've had a few people tweet me and ask me. I don't know why. I don't know why people seem to care. But, yeah, I have been using Plasma on about half my machines. Okay, yeah. And I haven't switched over on a couple of systems. And I think on the systems I have switched to Plasma, at least for a little while, I'm going to switch back to GNOME. So kind of go full bore here.

Well, I feel like most of the community is in a large way. I'm not trying to downplay Plasma or people that use it or the Neon Projects work or anything like that because I think those are all super relevant. In fact, after the dust settles, the Plasma desktop will probably be more important than ever. I think so. You're right. But right now, I want to— You're part of the zeitgeist. I just want to—I've been running Plasma desktop will probably be more important than ever. I think so. You're right. But right now, I want to—

You're part of the zeitgeist. I just want to—I've been running Plasma desktop for a while. One of the things I'm interested, going from Plasma back to GNOME, is if I'm going to feel like it's slow as shit. The whole thing about GNOME, when I remember switching to Plasma, was that KWin felt like everything was lubricated. Buttersmooth, I think you said. Just, yeah. Everything just flew around on my desktop.

Windows render. I could perceive how the windows just moved better. And I've been doing some reading about that. Is it mutter? Because really, the GNOME shell is like an extension that runs on top of mutter. GNOME shell itself, in some ways, is like an extension that runs on mutter. And so is it mutter? Is that the problem?

Is it JavaScript? Is GNOME shell just stuff full of JavaScript? And that's why it's so slow. And that's not really a fair characterization either. There are some blocking things that make performance not as great as it should be. But I have to tell you, and I don't know if you recall, but last week when we had Ike on the show, I said, hey, tell me about these patches you did that supposedly make Mudder support the NVIDIA proprietary driver. Remember that? And he's like, oh, yeah, that's just something Pharonix cares about.

I'm like, no, no, no. No, no. I want to know. Well, so since that conversation with Ike in the last week's show, I've been running Solus Gnome Edition on that Dell 7720. And it flies, man. It flies. And it feels like everything's faster, and I don't understand why, because it feels like even the menus in Chrome are faster.

Like when you click on the bookmarks bar and you drill down and you click on a bookmark, the way that shows up and fades away feels faster. The way that the rest of the desktop performs while five Chrome tabs are loading at once feels better. I think it's a combination. I think the first part of the mix is that Solus by default with their GNOME spin is shipping the Impatience extension. Oh, right. And the Impatience extension shaves off animation times. So I think there's a bit of that.

But I tell you what, Wes, I'll have you use this GNOME machine before you leave. It's out there. I'll have you play around GNOME machine before you leave. It's out there. I'll have you play around with GNOME. And just tell me if it's not the fastest damn desktop you've ever used. I'm excited. That sounds nice. So I feel like going to move back to GNOME, going to try it out again for a little while, going to live that lifestyle, going to maybe try experimenting with some of these things

people are doing. Yeah, right. It makes it a lot easier to see what the community is doing, play along with them, even if you don't want to use that for the long term. Monkey Con, you have a comment about switching to GNOME? Well, our whole office is in the process of upgrading from 16, and they're talking about going to 17, and now it's, okay, well, what do you do, GNOME or whatever?

I bet. Most of our group has gone from Unity to GNOME. A couple of them have gone to KDE, but they ended up with GNOME because they had Java issues. And they had Java issues in KDE. And it may have just been – Like Java apps not working properly? They have custom apps. One of them was the Ruby management development environment that they use.

And it runs in Java. And they were having problems in KDE where it would just crash randomly and it doesn't do it under GNOME. And the only difference is GNOME. So it's not 17.04 with KDE. It just doesn't make any sense to me. It doesn't. Why would a Java app be impacted by the desktop environment? I don't know i mean they it was a it was why we switched from unity to katie it was thinking it would be faster and smoother well

you know monkey i hear this in in different versions from a lot of people so uh since the news noah and i have been trying to talk to like as many people as we can that are using unity that are switching to gnome or that went from Unity to GNOME. And we're specifically trying to talk to people that are using it in the workspace, just like Monkey is. Yeah, right. This is super awesome that we're having this conversation, because one of the things that we've heard over and over again in different iterations is, XYZ didn't work under X desktop environment, so we moved to a different one.

And it's sometimes something didn't work under GNOME, so they used Unity. And it's, I don't know, I don't know what i so what what it comes what i think it must be is something with graphics drivers either with the compositor and if you're using proprietary versus free do you know monkey if that could be a factor on any of these systems maybe it was like compass versus mutter i mean could it be something dumb like that it could be it could be a thousand things it's you know it's when you're when you're installing a bunch of programs, one of them was a database development program, and it was a commercial application that they had running in Unity just fine. And then when we installed it on KDE, it didn't run. We were running Neon, so it was 16.04.

But when we went to 17.04 GNOME, it just ran fine. We had no issues. So there might have been a distro issue on that one, but you talk to the vendor who's selling the application and they're saying, well, we did all our development under Unity and we are in the process of revamping for other distros. Wow. Well, the beard hooks us up with something that's perfect for me. Hmm. Wow. this right now. Yeah, just grab it. I'm going to bookmark this. It'll be in the show notes if you run Arc or ArcDark and want to be able to

run a few cute applications. I'll give you an example. QuasalCore. There's nothing like Quasal and QuasalCore on GNOME. I'm using it right here, right now. And are you on a GTK desktop

otherwise? Yeah. Exactly. Right? Yeah, at the end of the day, even if you've replaced everything with a GTK app, eventually you're going to want good IRC. And when you do, you're going to wind up at Quasal. Exactly. Right? Yeah. At the end of the day, even if you've replaced everything with a GTK app, eventually you're going to want good IRC. And when you do, you're going to wind up at Quazza.

Exactly. Hmm. This looks really good. Thank you, Beard. That is a good find. He's ever so helpful. You know, that Beard, he has got the Google food down. That is for sure.

Maybe he uses something else. He's just not telling us about it. Maybe he's using DuckDuckGo. While the Peebs are using Google. Yeah, right? That guy. He's clever. So Debian is making a big change, and it feels like a passing of an era.

They're shutting down their public FTP servers. I don't buy any of this. I think this is really a shame. I know FTP's old. If you're one of the few people, LWN writes, that's still using FTP to access Debian repositories, well, the time has come to move on. They're going to shut it down in November. It's driven by the following considerations.

FTP servers have no support for caching or acceleration. All right, fair enough. Okay, okay, you got me there. Okay. Most software implementations have stagnated and are awkward to use and configure. I find that to be weak. Yeah, they've stagnated because FTP is finished. And awkward to use?

That's totally an opinion. That's absolutely an opinion. Okay, the next reason. Usage of FTP servers is pretty low, and our own installer has not offered FTP as a way to access the mirrors for over 10 years. Whoa. Yeah. Okay.

All right. Got me there. The protocol is inefficient and requires adding awkward kludges to firewalls and load balancing daemons. That feels like an argument from 10 years ago when it was hard. Is this FTP or is it FTP passive? I got a config configure my site. That's a problem that all firewall administrators literally

figured out 15 years ago. Maybe that knowledge is gone. These guys didn't do that. It's built in now. It's baked in now. I find all of this to me, to my personal preference, I really find FTP to still be one of the fastest ways to pull down files.

It's got – So you use it like day to day? I can't think of the last time I used it. SFTP sometimes but like regular old FTP. I don't use it daily. I don't use it – this shit is fast and great. And if I'm just pulling down stuff that's GPL code anyways, it's not like I care about privacy. It's all open source code. It's not like I'm moving around in the new

codes or something. And here's the other thing that's going to be, you want to talk about awkward. They used awkward twice in this reason. Here's some awkward. They're going to remap ftp.debian.org to go to the HTTP mirrors. That's awkward. You go to ftp.debian.org and you end up on an HTTP site.

That is a definition of awkward, my friends. That is awkward and Yeah, that is a little awkward. You go to ftp.debian.org and you end up on an HTTP site? That is a definition of awkward, my friends. That is awkward and kludge. I don't know why this hurts me. This cuts me in. I'm a little surprised, honestly. I know. I can tell. I feel like it's not...

It doesn't matter at the end of the day, but it feels like the passing of a... I agree with you there. Part of what it is is it feels like we're shitting on a perfectly good technology. I'm not claiming that we should all be updating our websites or pushing our applications or moving around databases with FTP. But if you're downloading something like a package or a source file or an ISO that is GPLed, there is literally no security consideration here. You're not logging in with an authenticated account. You're just pulling down open source material. It happens to be one of the fastest, most efficient means to file transfer protocol.

Well, you say that, but it's not like – like they said, like there's no – Hypertext. That's what HTTP stands for. It's for hypertext, Wes, not file transfer. Yes, but since then, we've invented CDNs, all kinds of methods to make this sort of thing much more efficient for the provider. Especially if you're a beleaguered Debian admin where like, all right, this is another daemon to configure. There's not very many users. No one serious really uses it or has to use it.

I don't know, Wes. To me, it feels like – I don't even know if I have like want to shut down good old simple FTP. I'm not trying to say we should all go to the church of Telnet here. I'm not trying to advocate that we should all be sending our usernames and passwords over clear text across the internet. I am simply saying that when you have a simple, clean, efficient file transfer protocol and you need to transfer files, it kind of makes sense. Like it kind of works, especially for the Debian project, right? It's not like we're talking about Solus here. We're not talking about elementary OS. We're talking about Debian, okay? But it's fine, Wes. It's fine.

Monkey, what do you think? FTP is old and works. fine, Wes. It's fine. Mookie, what do you think? FTP's old and works. Oh, yeah. Okay. All right. Thank you. It's like, we're going to talk about Thunderbird here in a little bit. And what everybody always says is, Chris, you're an asshole. Thunderbird is finished. We don't need to be working on it anymore. Nobody's doing anything with email. It's fine. And everybody's like totally cool with Thunderbird being this thing that isn't revolutionary every couple of years. But FTP, well, God forbid. Well, there's a big difference though because that's open source client-side software.

It doesn't require anyone to maintain a server or perform security patching. That's true. I would not as an admin. I would not run FTP if I didn't have to. Yeah. I agree. I actually agree on my own service. Right.

Yeah. I use SFTP. And like you said, you wouldn't expect Solus to have an FTP if I didn't have to. I agree. I actually agree on my own service. Right, right. Yeah. I use SFTP. And like you said, you wouldn't expect Solus to have an FTP. I just use SCP to be honest. Yeah, right. Totally. But the Debian project, Wes. I do.

It is the end of an era. You are right about that. Yeah, yeah. You know what the reality is too when it comes to – You should go download something before they shut it off. Yeah, just to celebrate. What really probably killed off FTP though is corporate firewalls because they all support – corporate firewalls don't care what you're doing when you're going to 80 or 443.

Have that at Haas. Enjoy yourself. Oh, you want to establish an SSH connection or FTP? Oh, no, you might be hacking. So I think it's really corporate firewalls. I don't think so. I mean we use SFTP. I mean I know it's SSH but we use SFTP through – in the banking industry like crazy.

That is the protocol and when you start getting into stuff like just the file transfers between financial institutions, they still use SFTP because it works. You're just dropping a file into a directory for someone else to go read later. And there's nothing really better than – SFTP is fine but you really can't beat that, especially when you're doing shared search and stuff like that. Wes is over there doing a passive FTP session right now. I just got downloaded the readme from that archive. You went to ftp.debian.org? I sure did.

Good man. Good man. Pull that down while you can. Now I have a piece of history. You have until November 1st, 2017. And then they'll shut it down and redirect you to HTTP. What we have to do,

see, we can't do it because it's the observer effect. Now that I'm going to say this, it won't happen. But in the future, you could all play a game at home when we cover a story like this. So when Chris talks about FTP or something like that, you could play a game at home to see how many people go to the comments to tell me about rsync or SCP.

Even though we kind of gave them quick mention on the show, you'll be amazed at how many people listening think Chris has never heard of these things. Somehow, dude manages to do a Linux show for 11 years, but doesn't know about rsync or scp. It's such a fun game to play at home. You can tell I love it. You should play it too. But now that I've mentioned it, it's the observer effect. We'll have 90% less. I bet you we'll still get a couple. Maybe two that are ironic

and three that are serious. Be careful if you drink while you play this game. You have to set a reasonably low limit or you will hurt yourself. Yeah, that's like when you were playing drinking games during the election. You will get wrecked. Let's talk about another way to get improved. Let's talk about Linux Academy. Now, this is why I'm a big fan of Linux Academy.

It's on my terms. I did schooling when I was in IT. I mostly threw community college programs. Does your work give you a budget? We do have a training budget. That's nice. Do you go to classes? I've had some people come in, and then I think you get it through your individual

managers, but you can request training. This is, man, if I work somewhere, this JB, they don't have the perks, but if I work somewhere that gave me a training budget Some beddies? Yeah, exactly. Just a little. This would be such a great way to use it because then it's

on my terms. Linuxacademy.com slash unplugged. It's a platform to learn about Linux. You go there, you support the show, linuxacademy.com slash unplugged, and you can sign up for a free seven-day trial. Now, you'll learn about the core of Linux and everything you really need to know to manage and set up and really be a great Linux administrator or DevOps or sysadmin.

That's nice and that's fancy. And I pretty much use it exclusively now for a couple of years just to do that kind of stuff. I have dabbled a little bit in like Ruby and Python. They have some great courseware. A little bit. But I got to tell you, if I was in the industry today and I felt like OpenStack was over my head or I keep hearing all these big data concepts tossed around or containers fell out of my reach or I didn't understand what made AWS so competitive or why Microsoft is killing it with Azure. Even if I didn't have to work in that field just yet, I would totally dive into these courses. So we use Chef where I work. So even if I didn't have to work in that field just yet, I would totally dive into these courses.

So we use Chef where I work. We had some Chef training, intermediate level. Linux Academy was an awesome resource for everyone who hadn't done Chef before to get up to speed on the basics. Everything that Linux Academy covered was exactly what the best practices in the industry. It's up to date. It's focused on the real tools that people use. Yeah, I think it makes a difference because they have not only do they have like a lot of passion for this stuff, but they've really doubled down on bringing in-house staff in that's constantly making this stuff relevant, keeping on top of this. They're going to the events. They're staying abreast in the industry.

And I think the other big differentiator for them is if you get stuck, they have real human mentorship available, like actual instructors that know the courseware, know the stuff in and out, and they can help you. You can master Linux at linuxacademy.com slash unplugged. And a big thank you to Linux Academy for sponsoring the Unplugged program. Last week on the program, we tried to make sense of the big Docker announcement because DockerCon was going on. And I thought we did a pretty good job of cutting through the BS. We weren't the only ones. There was a lot of BS to cut through, though. And I felt a little validated that you found a few other conversations online where people

were incensed by the amount of BS coming out of Docker. And now we have a little bit better understanding of what the hell is going on and why you should care. So it appears, kind of, sort of of that Docker became Mobi last week. It was like a rebranding thing that has just sparked a shit ton of confusion. So at DockerCon in Austin, apparently I leave Austin and then they decide to have DockerCon. On last Tuesday, which was the day we were recording the show, Docker announced the Mobi project.

It's a new name for the open source software from which the commercial versions of Docker are derived. And it starts as this, it serves as like a starting point to create customized container software for specific purpose built infrastructures. It's essentially what we said last week. Turns out though, we were, we were probably one of the only news outlets that got it right because, and it's not, it's not other folks' fault. It got really confusing.

There was a series of issues that totally muddled the message. First of all, you had Docker's extremely thick, complicated PR announcement. Complicated PR announcement. Yes. Then there were some vague mentions on some poll requests that sort of led people to misunderstand. So there was some terminology in one of the recent poll requests where it just said the Project Mobi is the new upstream for the Docker project. And people are like, what? What is this?

What? And then people went to go check what was going on and GitHub connectivity problems totally messed up this announcement. The message had disappeared. Docker had to get a hold of GitHub's support staff to try to get this stuff restored while people are trying to figure it out, then the problem was compounded during another poll request where the CTO of Docker said Docker is transitioning all of its open source collaborations to the Mobi project going forward, which people didn't have any idea what that meant. What does that mean? What's happening? So then they go to the PR announcement and they can't make sense of it at all. There really was like last week. There was no straight-laced, easy-to-read description at all.

Yeah, yeah. So we have this other announcement that kind of actually makes more sense. They should have led with LinuxKit. Now, it sounds like something for iOS, but LinuxKit includes the tooling to allow building custom Linux subsystems that only include exactly the components that the runtime requires. So you got an application, maybe it's a web app with a database, it will only include the components necessary to boot that container up and get those applications started. All system services are containers that can be replaced. Everything that is not required can just be removed from the system.

All components can be substituted with ones that match specific needs. So different runtimes, different containers, different DNS servers. It's a kit very much in the Docker philosophy of batteries are included, but all are swappable, and Docker announced it, an open-sourced Linux kit, which is up on GitHub. And if my understanding of it is correctly,

it's like an Alpine Linux shim that goes on top of macOS or Windows that gives them the basic elements they need in the user land space to fire up a container. It's not Ubuntu Linux. It's not Red Hat Linux. It's Alpine Linux, which is like this hyper-focused container Linux. Am I tracking this so far? Well, yeah, right. It's a way to build these like very minimal, you know, customized Linux.

I mean, you could call it a distribution, but it's not, right? It's really this image that's meant to just have the bare bones necessary so that then on top of it, you could just run a bunch of containers. It kind of seems like a lower-level container OS kind of thing. Right, that can run on top of a host OS. But it's not a VM because you're not virtualizing the disk controller and the Ethernet and all of the hardware stack. The kernel of the host OS is facilitating the actual processes.

So the processes are using the same type of containerization they use on Linux. So you could be running on a Mac, but it's not necessarily virtualization, which is very confusing to me, but it's all made possible with this Linux kit, which Docker is billing as a lean portable Linux subsystem for all OSs basically. I mean, and how far does this go? Could somebody like the free – could a group like the FreeBSD project come and make it their new Linux subsystem? That's a good question. Is this now basically – is Linux kit going to become like the bash for Mac OS X? Like you need a Bash on Windows?

I know OS X already has Bash. But is this going to be a way for people to just have a Linux environment running on their Mac now? Where does the line stop? When do we stop taking from Linux and let Linux just have something for God's sakes? Now the user land and containers and the only thing we have left is the computer. Well, they don't seem to want to take our desktops i don't want those damn it wes that just made me feel worse i did note here at the bottom they talked about how linux kit provides a space to incubate incubate security projects that show promise for improving linux security so like wire guard i don't know what landlock is but

mirage and o kernel um hmm you know i also got I also got the – I got a smell – I got a Microsoft smell coming off this. There's nothing in this – I mean they do reference Windows 10 customers will get access to Linux containers and we will be working together on how to integrate LinuxKit with Hyper-V isolation. So there is some reference to Microsoft technologies, but when I read this, yeah, that's Redmond. Yeah, I know what Redmond smells like. That smells like Redmond. And I don't quite know what it is. I think when I was on Twitter,

I noticed some Microsoft employees that I follow were promoting this. And I think some of this was done in partnership with Microsoft to get this on Windows. And the work they did to make this work for Windows is basically opened up for other BSD, macOS, other platforms as well. So LinuxKit, they say, is container native. They just can't help themselves. They still got to talk like a bunch of monsters in here. I don't know what it is, but it just gets me crazy.

Yeah, LinuxKit. They do, I mean, they talk about security like a thousand times in that little article, so I hope it means that they're, you know, I hope it means that they are focusing on that and helping to advance, you know, like they mentioned the kernel self-protection project and other things, and

I think we need that, right? Like, especially with all the hype around containers, whatever that means on Linux and all that thing. I think a big name like Docker taking it seriously or at least looking like it is a good sign. I wanted to talk more about it but I sense that there is just a I don't give a shit aspect in the audience

like people, as soon as you start talking about Docker and containers, I feel like there's a portion of the audience that just doesn't care. And I don't know how to grapple with the fact that at the same time, this could be one of the biggest things that's happening in the Linux space in the last few years. I don't know how to connect those dots. It's also one of the ways where it's like – it is kind of far away from this show, right? Especially the desktop focus. But this is like one of the main things that's selling Linux to the enterprise or the modern enterprise.

Yeah. We talked about it on Monday's Coder Radio, but basically Michael Dominic is refocusing in a large way his entire company on delivering Docker solutions, not even like container solutions, but Docker solutions. And I just – yeah, I feel like I have a hard time figuring out a way to make it connect with the audience because there's only so many reasons they should care. At the same time, like if you follow Linux, this is a huge thing that's happening. And at the same time, there's this undertone.

What's really happening here, and it's something we've talked about before, is Linux is the runtime. They're delivering software in containers, but what is the software actually running on top of? It's Linux. It's Linux. Well, now with this Linux kit move, it's like a hybrid Linux because it's no longer the Linux kernel. It's Linux user land and some aspects of the kernel and a host kernel. Something's happening here. And in some ways, it doesn't all feel good.

But it definitely feels like inevitable progress. Yes. all feel good, but it definitely feels like inevitable progress. Yes. I mean, I think that is one of the things about the Docker stuff. Their strong cooperation with Windows, it really is focused on cloud, cloud workflows, whatever that means, right? But that's the marketing. That's what they're trying to talk about.

And the Linux part is really an implementation detail. Jeez, that's so true. Which is both good and useful and maybe, right? And it does advance Linux. It brings people to Linux Foundation. It's seen a lot of benefit from that, I true. Which is both like good and useful and maybe, right? And it does advance Linux. It brings people to the Linux Foundation. It's seen a lot of benefit from that, I think. But it's also like, are we, you know, do we lose sight of the core thing?

Does that make it easier for Linux to then be replaced as a component of that ecosystem? I don't know. Yeah, something that we've been kicking around here, like if you can take Docker containers and you can run them on macOS, if you have Bash on Windows, you go to a tech conference like DockerCon, they're all MacBooks.

You just go search for hashtag DockerCon on Twitter and then sort by images. It's all MacBooks. It's – DrupalCon is going on this week. I'm doing the same exercise. I'm working on a project and so I'm following all these conferences and no one I notice when we go to these things. And I got to tell you, it's all MacBooks. So you got MacBooks with Bash terminals and Docker containers. You got Windows machines with Ubuntu in a terminal and the ability to run Docker containers.

It feels like Linux has been recently gaining a lot of ground for the DevOps web developer type role. I mean, look at Project Sputnik and the year-over-year 100% growth they're having. They're selling to developers. But why the hell does a developer need to use Linux if the bash shell and containers are on their favorite OS that they're used to and they've been using for years? Where's the motivation to switch? Where's the platform advantage? Am I overthinking it? It seems like just as we're

finally gaining a foothold with a certain type of user, all of the things that are driving users to that are beginning to vanish in front of us. It means that the server world of Linux and the desktop world are even farther apart than they have been in the past. There's no reason to use Linux on the

desktop really anymore unless you want to. Which is fine. Right. And maybe it's good. But I was sure enjoying the competitive advantage we had where there was like, you couldn't reproduce production unless you also ran it on your laptop or desktop. And now with containers, now with Bash on Linux

or Bash on Windows... And I feel like there's at least a small subset of users that have misconceptions or those people that tried it 10 years ago when it was really rough or other things that before like they had that incentive to give it a try and maybe they would find something they like. But now they could just be like, well, I'll just keep using my MacBook. Yeah. I change. Right. Or Windows. Or Windows.

Yeah. I mean Windows has become a much better option. Right? I got the Linux subsystem. I can run Bash if I need to. I can SSH into a VPS when that doesn't work. Oh. Oh.

And now with – all right. Well, it's not going to be Thunderbird that's moving them over to Linux. But let's talk about Thunderbird here for a second because it's a topic that's come up on this show before that was met with a surprising amount of interest. Yeah. And there is a proposal to start a new implementation of Thunderbird based on web technologies. Now, does that mean electron? What do you mean when you say web technologies? What does that mean?

Yeah. Because isn't Thunderbird already based? Isn't Thunderbird based on web technologies by the very fact that it's like a Zool app that runs on top of the Gecko engine. I mean – But those are old web technologies. We don't talk about those anymore. Oh, OK.

I see. I see. OK. New web technologies like Electron and WebKit, right? No. So here's what they – here's the point they make and how are you going to ignore this. Their base is going away.

What Thunderbird is based on is going away. This is a reality. Gecko is going to change dramatically in the future. It already is. They're dropping features that Firefox does not need anymore, but Thunderbird clearly relies on. Plus, the Thunderbird code base is now 20 years old. JavaScript and HTML5 have evolved dramatically since they created this application.

They think a rewrite in JavaScript makes sense now. He, in this article, points out that look, this is a Zool app. And Firefox is discontinuing Zool extensions. They're killing off small projects this way. I mean, it's just the reality.

It's a cut that goes to the base of Firefox. And they did that because these extensions are sort of holding back internal architecture improvements that they've been trying to make. And also the Thunderbird base is based entirely on the XP-COM, you know, the back-end communication module, XP-COM, whatever it's called, and Zool for the user interface. So if you take away XP-COM and you take away Zool, which Firefox is doing, you've effectively taken away Thunderbird and they're going to have to rewrite anyways. This is a huge problem. It is a huge problem. For a project that's already struggling and understaffed or funded or whatever, right?

Yeah. Yeah. That was basically put on the shelf in maintenance mode. And this week too, I don't know if it's related, but there's been some folks posting mock-ups of what a new Thunderbird could look like. It's not bad. It looks like a web browser a bit to me. It does, yeah. Very much so.

That's a – oh, no. That's – yeah. Yeah, that would be their Thunderbird. This would be their Thunderbird redesign right here. It's kind of nice. Could be worse. I've moved on in myself, so I have a hard time connecting with this story. I found Thunderbird to be really, really my go-to for many, many, many, many, many years, especially with Enigmail.

Like it was so hard to get away from Thunderbird and Enigmail combo, which is a great, easy, simple way to do GPG encryption in your email client. Just gorgeous, beautiful. Love it. It's the greatest encryption. I hear from the people. It's the best. I can't, I can't, I can't. I'm not a very good Trump impressionist. I can't work on my Trump impression. For a new greatest encryption. I hear from the people, it's the best. I can't, I can't, I can't. I'm not a very good Trump impression.

I'm trying to work on my Trump impression. I moved on. What would you recommend? If they want, they don't want web-based email, they want a client. I don't know. I don't know. For me, it's N1, but I can't recommend the latest to everybody because there's other issues people have with it. KMail

is still just as quirky as KMail ever was. I just don't know. Geary was my go-to, but Geary kind of faded, and now it's merged with elementary OS. Clause gets mentioned a lot. Clause does. I don't have a ton of Clause experience.

What about you? What's your answer to this? I just end up using Webmail most of the time. But what if somebody comes to you and says, Wes, I'm moving to Linux. I would probably say try Nihilus. Really? Yeah. I mean, it depends on the person.

If they were, you know, more computer savvy, maybe not. Maybe I would maybe say KMail or Klaus or something like that. And Elias has the advantage of being very easy to use. And it has features that people expect, like the ability to snooze emails and follow up. And the interface is pretty nice and responsive and rich in a way that people coming from other platforms might like. I don't know how I feel about having to say that, but that's probably what I'd say. So maybe it is time for a Thunderbird reboot. Yeah.

At least in our world. Because, I mean, I do think it's important that we have – I mean, I don't know how important we can debate that. But it would be nice to have a good open source free software email client that people can come to and use and that is well-supported and modern and good. A lot of love for Claws in the chat room right now. Look at this. I know it's producer Michael's favorite too, I think. A lot of love for Claws. Look at the beard trolling us with his Windows mail. Oh, my gosh. Can't even with you right now. Get out of love for claws. Look at the beard trolling us with his wood dust, Bill. Oh my gosh. Can't even with you right now. Get out of the air.

I do use Evolution sometimes. I have on occasion. The nice thing about that is it's still sort of baked in a gnome in some sense. When you use some of the online account stuff. One of the things that the internet was saying a lot about Thunderbird is it needs to have native exchange support. which I guess is still a big thing.

You can do it with a plug-in, but I got a problem. We got to move on. We got a problem. We got to do a little – we should do the Linux Unplugged consultancy agency. Oh, I like that idea. Yeah, for some of these open source projects because the folks behind the Unity 8 port could use a little consultancy. I'm not going to get into all the stupid shit going on in their community right now, but there's a lot of dumb drama.

And it all centers around one core problem. And I'm going to tell you what it is here in just a minute. But so for those of you that don't know, there is some rash, brave souls out there that have been fighting the good fight when it comes to Ubuntu on the phone for years now. Yeah. Making it available to devices that Canonical didn't officially support. And that group decided,

let's take on the Unity 8 desktop. We will continue it. Which, brilliant. You know, in an open source, when a door closes, a window opens. I think that's the saying. When you take a leak and flush it, right? That's the saying?

That is a brilliant philosophy, one that brought us the Nautilus file manager today. The great files file manager that has been of much controversy in GNOME actually was called Nautilus, and it was created by a company called Easel that was trying to do this crazy thing. Get ready for this, Wes. Server-side storage and integration with the file manager. That's crazy. Yeah, they didn't call it cloud back then. You have to say cloud.

Right. We didn't learn that yet. No, it was just an online storage service. Yeah. That sounds expensive. And they were going to integrate it into their easel file manager called Nautilus, and that's how they're going to make money. And they were going to make great tools to manage Linux desktop along with this file

manager. Eventually, they had this customized desktop, the easel desktop that was like this re-spin of GNOME that was like the best implementation of GNOME you could find. You could even get it with a special software manager. It was the bee's knees as the kids say. And nobody was interested in storing their files online. That is crazy, people said. I'm not just going to hand my personal information over to some company and have them store it on their server. Then would I have to download it if I wanted to get it? How is that going to work? That's ridiculous.

So Eazl eventually went out of business. But they had, by the day's standards, created one of the best file managers for Linux. Turns out it was open source. And so the community picked it up. And from the ashes of Eazl, we have files that we still use on the GNOME desktop today. It's also used on Unity. It's been around. So in that same spirit, the folks that wanted to continue on Unity 8, yeah, the commercial company behind it may be turning to a different direction,

but we can continue Unity 8. Seems bold, seems brave, seems like in the spirit of open source. They made a problem, though. They made a real 2017 mistake, and it is hollowing the project out from the inside. It's going to burn out the developers. It's souring the community. It's poisoning the well, and it's going to stunt the project before they've even shipped some code.

And the problem is they've focused their community around Reddit. They thought they could start an initiative like this with a subreddit. So you can go to reddit.com slash r slash unit, Y-U-N-I-T, And you can watch the train wreck for yourself. They can't even get a logo or a catchphrase together without all of the alpha geeks living on Reddit shitting all over each other and creating a massive infight. It is one of the best displays of how humans cannot work together out there right now. This is a rough thread. And I got to tell you, if you have an open source project that you actually want to build a community around, you have to build some of the infrastructure yourself. Go do it on Mastodon. Go do it on a forum.

Do it on a mailing list. Do it in an IRC room. But for God's sakes, do not do it on Reddit. It will poison your project from the beginning. And unfortunately, we're watching this de-evolution of humanity right here for public display. It's really unfortunate. And I think it's a lesson that so many open source projects could take away. Do not base the center spoke of your community around Reddit.

Because it's a place where people want to go to have an opinion. And they think that they've got to be the smartest guy in the room. And they've figured it out. And they're going to tell you about it. And it is – it's shocking to watch this. And you have people like saying, don't bother replying here. I won't be reading this. You have all kinds of typical man-child type behavior that happens. I don't see – I just – I don't see how this is going to go anywhere.

This is so unfortunate because it's a project that's going to have minimal community interest to begin with. Because let's be honest. It was never like a massively popular project. We probably wouldn't be here today if it was in this position we're in now. And to focus it around this, it's just such a shame because I would love to have seen what a modern Qt desktop could look like. Maybe they'll still pull it out. But it's a little lesson we can all take away. stop could look like. Maybe they'll still pull it out.

But it's a little lesson we can all take away. Because the core problem, the thing that always made me leave hope, a little bit of hope for Ubuntu Mobile was we've got to do something about Android. I don't care if everybody does something about Android, but I would like an option. I still would like an option. That has not

changed. And I would love, even if it's a community. We're just a little more sad and depressed. So a community project We're just a little more sad and depressed. Yes. So a community project that gives us a legitimate type image we could download one day and flash to your Nexus slash Pixel devices

is absolutely something that interests me. So I hope that these early growing pains get worked out because my hopes are that one day they can save us from the androids. Save us all from the androids taking over our humanity. Exactly.

Spying on us. Alright, you know, let's talk about mobile. Let's talk about something you can do right now. That might all be out in the future, but there's something, there's action, there's something you can do. You can switch to Ting. This is such a great story. I'll tell you in just a second, but start by going to linux.ting.com. You go there. This is the landing page to support the show and get $25 off a device. Or if you bring a compatible device, check their BYOD page.

They'll give you $25 in service credit. You might have a device that already works because it turns out cell phones have been around for a little while and they've got a CDMA network and a GSM network. So there's probably something in there that'll work for you. You get $25 in service because it turns out cell phones have been around for a little while, and they've got a CDMA network and a GSM network, so there's probably something in there that will work for you. You get $25 in service credit then. Now, Ting is pay-for-what-you-use mobile. Minutes, messages, and megabytes. You just pay for that.

It's $6 for the line. Now, here's the story. So Noah's out here visiting the studio, but he has a client that's like, Noah, I know you're busy, but I just really need to get my phone situation figured out. Can you please tell me which phone plan I should get? And she links them all the

different options. And Noah's like, just look at all these different options. It's like $40 a month for this line, $65 a month for this line. All these different things. And he goes, just go to linux.ting.com. And she goes to linux.ting.com and she says, well, this can't be right. She writes him back. She's like, how can I just did

the savings calculator and for my phone, it's going to be $12 a month. How can this be right? This can't be right. And I was like, yes, that is exactly right. It's that simple. She said it's so simple, this can't be right. It can't be right.

That's the funny thing. It's the rest of the industry that's wrong. That's the funny thing. They've all got it wrong, and we've just all gone along with it. We've just all, well with it. We've just all just, well, it's like the boiling pot, isn't it? We've just, we grew up in an environment. I

started, I started with my folks having these huge phones and I had a pager and I thought that was cool. And I would have taken any plan they gave me. And then when these phones started coming out for all voice stream, I got on voice stream, I got all these different plans, tried all these different care, anything they would give me.

I would take it. Anything I would take because it was such an incredible new technology. But now here we are in 2017, looking back at it, we got snow job. Why am I paying for minutes and messages and megabytes? I never even use. That's crazy.

Why am I getting in these agreements? Don't call it a contract. It's an agreement. This is insanity. You can make a difference by voting with your wallet. Linux.ting.com. You go there. You sign up.

Oh, no contract, no determination fee. And if you're a business with like 11 to 20 employees, there is like a 99.9999999% chance you're going to save money. It's so awesome. And they've got a great blog, too. You can check it out. Just start by going to linux.ting.com and a big thank you to Ting for sponsoring the Linux

Unplugged program, linux.ting. So here's something that's relevant. What do you have here? Hello, it says. Hello. What is this? Take a look. That is my pixel replacement. The first one died. Oh, really? Yes. So I've been forced to use... I noticed. I was like, why is he on his Nexus 5 again? So you got the new phone use. I noticed. Yes. I know. I was like, why is he on his Nexus 5 again?

So you got the new phone today? I got it yesterday. I didn't have time last night to set it up. I know, right? So I was like, well. So it comes in a, do I have a, yeah. So it comes in a hello box. Look at that.

Pretty cute. Yeah, and it's still all wrapped up too, Wes. No! No! Not the best packaging, I think, is what we learned. I should have planned that as a bit. I just dropped it. I just dropped it on the wood floor in the studio here. All right.

All right. Here we go. Wes, it's got this big crack across it. I'm kidding. It's totally fine. This is a nice-feeling phone. It is a nice-feeling phone. And this is really nice.

So did you just take the SIM out of your old one, put it in that, and now you can move it into this? Or did you have to do something fancier? No, I had a prepaid plan on my old phone. So I just activated a month of that, and then I'll go back to it. So you'll just be able to, yeah, so you don't even have to worry about it? That is a nice, smooth move, Wes. Well, does it not come with a charger? No.

So you keep your original charger and everything, and then you just send back the phone. Oh, I see. A little package. So that's a specific replacement box. Yes. So I went through Google, talked to them. They got me a replacement and everything and then you just send back the phone and it's a little package. So that's a specific replacement box. So I went through Google, talked to them, they got me a replacement and everything. So that's good. I'm happy about it and I'm very happy to have a regular 27.

Does it feel like a huge downgrade? Oh yes. Oh, terribly. I knew I liked the phone. It's been a really nice phone, but I really missed it when it was gone. Now you realize, wow, I probably use this Nexus 5 longer than I needed to. Yes, exactly. The camera alone.

Oh, I know. Wow. All right, well, so there's this huge announcement by the Linux Foundation. I wonder if anybody in the Mumble Room even saw it or could even explain it to me. Did anybody in the Mumble Room see this announcement by the Linux Foundation this week of the launch of Edge X Foundry? Anybody see this? Sorry, I haven't. Yeah.

I missed it as well. I find this to be interesting, and I think it's because we all have IoT fatigue. That's a great phrase. I'm going to run with that. IoT fatigue. I've heard now, I think one of the phrases that's taken off is the Internet of Shit,

which feels a little clunky. Like I wish we could do something with the T, you know, to keep the IoT acronym. Like the Internet of Terrible might be better because you're keeping the T. But anyways. Otherwise it's iOS. That's overloaded enough. It's true. I don't know why this isn't. So I suspect, actually I do know why.

I suspect this is why this is not making a big splash in our crowd is because we all glaze over when we hear this. And what this is, this EdgeX Foundry, is actually something that is going to – it's going to shift IoT into a direction that I think everyone listening to this show would like. It basically takes it out of the cloud and it puts it in your LAN. Yeah, it's actually – I'm scared, Chris. Are you scared? Buckle up, Wes. the cloud and it puts it in your LAN. Yeah. It's actually – I'm scared, Chris. Are you scared? Buckle up, Wes.

See, I don't like IoT and if it's on other people's computers in the cloud, then I feel safer. So I have a little insider story here. I'll give you the background before we start. While we were at Dell in Austin, texas recently there was a lab they took us into it actually just walking by you'd have no idea it just called it's called the co co uh cto lab just called like the cto lab or something like that like you'd have no idea what it is um and in this lab they're using these purpose-built hardware devices they're like uh

they're x86 rigs, but they look like tiny ARM systems where they have like the thin cooling on the sides, and they have antennas coming off them, and they're ruggedized x86 computers. And the ones I was looking at was running Ubuntu Core. So they're testing a lot of this stuff with Ubuntu,

and the whole idea is IoT is fun, and this is literally, I don't know if I'm, this is literally what Dell told me. IoT for the home looks fun, but let's be honest, they say. Amazon's won that. Like, Amazon with the Echo has just, you're not going to, like, Dell's not going to come out with an Echo competitor, right? Yeah, okay.

I'm like, yeah, you're right. Yeah. Like, how refreshing is it that finally some company just acknowledges, yeah, there's a market leader there and we're probably not going to unseat them. Yes. But you know what Dell said is like there's really nothing like this for the enterprise. That's their game. Yeah, and the enterprise has a much bigger problem to solve. manufacturing, either be like food manufacturing or even car manufacturing. There's so much equipment that's kicking off on schedules and stuff where you could be getting data like motion sensors, pressure sensors, temperature sensors, like IoT, if

you'll call it that. It's basically remote sensor devices and network connected devices. Has real practical advantages in the enterprise and nobody's trying to solve that problem. So what EdgeX Foundry is, it's a Linux Foundation initiative where Dell is seeding the initial technology to try to make a standard framework. All these different vendors, IoT devices can plug in, and you can do local LAN management. And so I think, whoa, hello there. Hi there.

Hello. Hello. Hello. Hello. I guess it's time for us to start the show, Wes. Yeah. We're late. Yeah. Hello. Hello. Hello. I guess it's time for us to start the show, Wes. Yeah. We're late. Yeah.

Whoops. And it's actually probably solving the problem that so many of us have with IoT where it's like you have to give everything over to the cloud. They have all of your data. And there's other problems that that brings in for businesses. And I think Edge X Foundry is going to solve all of it. So I got just a couple of minutes. We got some footage. I had to sit on it for a little while, but now I can share it with you guys to give you

a little insight on what this is and why the Linux Foundation is calling this their largest announcement ever. We're here in the CTO lab talking IoT. How about that? And this is Jim, and Jim's going to give us a walk around of some of the tours, give us a couple of demos. I'm looking around. I'm just seeing all kinds of really great devices, like that guy right there.

There's some hardware over here. So where should we start? We'll start in our mini lab. Let's do it. During our visit to Dell, there was one thing we couldn't share with you just yet. So we're going to save this for three weeks. Future Chris and Noah, save this for three weeks. Dell and the Linux Foundation are launching EdgeX Foundry, an initiative that aims to build a common

framework to make IoT usable in the enterprise. The problem we have in IoT is that you have all these different types of devices that speak all these different protocols. Everything from BLE to Modbus and BACnet, which were ancient protocols, at least by most of our standards. They all speak a different format. They speak a different language. How do you bring those all into a single platform? Yeah, exactly.

And then make it available to people like you and I to actually use. That's what our platform called Edge X Foundry is about. It's a software platform that allows us to bring all that data in, normalize it to a single format, and then make it available to your cloud or enterprise, as well as be able to control things at what we call the edge, thus the name, EdgeX Foundry. If you can't control things at the edge,

it's too much data and it's too slow for reaction. And we'll talk and show that here in a second. So you're right. Right here we're seeing just a little visual, a little graphic of the data coming off of, in this case, the gyroscope and this Bosch sensor. So you're seeing the ups and downs of that. In fact, we always have fun with those sensors when we take them out of the road. We throw them around the room. You get big spikes up and down.

We also get to see who drops them and watch them go to the floor. So that's the collection of data or example of a collection of data by our EdgeX Foundry software into our gateway. That's one job of the system. Collect data and make it available. Second job is to be able to offer the ability to do what we call actuation, which means respond to data coming in. Yeah, I was wondering about that. But it also solves a big problem I never really thought much about. More importantly, though, it's not just about gathering data and being able to actuate back down.

It's being able to do those in combination, meaning you have to have what we call edge analytics or some smarts, some intelligence on that gateway that's watching all the data come in and being able to translate that back down to actions down to your systems. in and being able to translate that back down to actions down to your systems. Say, for example, if we moved that punch machine here, I'm going to lower that arm down. I get the little mouse on there, right? It's sending off the signal there. Actually, I did the wrong way.

I moved it up and it was already up, so let me move it in the other direction here. So there we go. You'll notice the sound came out of that padlock. That's a rules engine that's running as part of our Edge X Foundry that's, in this case, looking for movement on that arm. There's a way that's triggered. It sounds like it's on the alarm. But you can see it happening for lots of different devices for lots of different pictures. It can do true stuff. Exactly. You see it happening for lots of different devices for lots of different digits. They can dump real stuff. Exactly.

You maybe have a proximity sensor that shuts the machine off if your arm gets too close to it. That's the intelligence you want at the edge. It can be that quick? It can be that quick. As you see here, we're not exactly real time yet, but pretty darn close, right? Enough where you can send off a sensor like that in seconds. You don't want to operate your automobile airbag with our Edge X foundry, but we're getting close to doing that.

That's what local intelligence is all about. That's why you need a gateway. You can't afford to let that data go all the way to the cloud, all the way back down. It's too late. Somebody's lost an arm. It's not just about security and privacy. It's also about timing. I hadn't even thought of that.

Too late. Somebody's already lost an arm. What a morbid but true way to talk about that. And, you know, it wasn't clear in the video there, but the system, the beep, the alarm beep, was coming from a separate device. So there's like, you know, and they're talking what's great about Dell is they have the resources. So they've gone into these businesses that already have like all of these systems. And these things can connect. This EdgeX Foundry, it's based on an existing open source project that has been sort of merged with some other stuff.

And Dell then went out and did some industry research. And they found people that have like serial connected controllers. And they made that work with Edge X Foundry. Wow. Yeah. So it's not – it basically works with all of them. Right. And then it gives people a framework to target if they want to make their device specifically

compatible. And you can run this Edge X Foundry stuff on Linux. You can run it on Windows. Dell has a combination of Ubuntu hardware and software that you can run it on top of. But there's 22 other companies involved. Today, Canonical announced they're one of them. And so that's a huge-ass start. It's being head up by the Linux Foundation.

It's got a huge investment and initial seeding by Dell. It's got Canonical on board. And then you've got 22 other companies that are device manufacturers and software makers that are going to work with this thing. And it might get to the point where the enterprise, because they got work to get done and money to be made, will get this IoT situation figured out. I know. Isn't that funny? But it makes sense. Like, yeah, they have the money and they have, like, strict requirements about security, what things they are allowed to install or use.

So that can drive a lot of things. are allowed to install or use, so that can drive a lot of things. Well, and when you think about it from a standpoint of, we want that machine to stop crushing before the guy's arm is totally lost, you do want something a little more fast, maybe gigabit speed, maybe not going up to the Amazon cloud and waiting for the API to respond. And that might just add a little bit of unnecessary delay. AWS is having an outage. No one use the paper crusher today. This is not going to work, is it?

Alright, before we move on from this, does anybody in the Mumba room have any thoughts, questions, comments about any of this? You guys have been quiet for a bit so I want to give anybody a chance in there. Charlie Brown AU, are you new here? Welcome to the Mumba room, sir. Hi, Charlie Brown AU.

How you going, man? Not bad, thanks. Hey, Charlie Brown, AU. How are you going, man? Not bad. Thanks. Hey, so what do you think? Is this all crap? Is it hype? Do you think there actually could be some actual value here? I don't know enough about it to have a view on it.

I was hoping the segment would give you a little bit of an idea. I think, you know, for me, Charlie, it seems like, okay, oh, I get it in the business sense. I get where you would want Wi-Fi temperature sensors, and I get where you would want Bluetooth controllers, and I get where you'd want

serial controlled stuff. Like, I get Internet of Things in the business in a way that I don't necessarily get it in the home. Do you have any, like, any device, like, do you follow me? Do you have any devices in your home, or are you kind of on the same page?

Like I just don't get IoT for the home. I've got a Steam Link, which is like an ARM device, and I want to actually get a Raspberry Pi to turn into a PFSense box. And I've actually got a Adreno Nano as well, which I'm making a track IR out of. Charlie, that's all sounding kind of thingy on the internet. That's getting close, Charlie. That's getting close. Yeah, I've actually, what I have found it really useful for is controlling my space heaters. I know that sounds weird.

No, I get it. I get it. But with the- When you're cold, you don't want to move. Alexa, warm me up. Cancel. Actually, you say that, but it's funny. So today when I left the house, it was like 38 degrees when I left the house, when I left the RV.

A brisk spring morning. And so we have an electric space heater in their oil enclosed system. So they're like coils. And we have one in the front of the rig and we have one in the back of the rig. And they're both controllable by the Echo. And when we left today, it was cold. I didn't even think to turn them off. And they're just sitting there sucking power.

But when I got here to the office, I was like, you know what? It's like 58 degrees out now. I don't need those running. And it's one command. I could say it right now. And it just turns off the oil heaters in the RV. That's really nice. It is super nice, actually, because I then compare them with Belkin Wemo plugs.

Right. That will give me the real-time amperage and voltage and watts. Now you've got data. And I can actually say, well, today's Earth Day. So after I've drawn X amount of watts, just turn the thing off. Just turn it off. And I can also say, I'm going to get home around 4 o'clock today. Just turn the thing off. Just turn it off. And I can also say, I'm going to get home around 4 o'clock today.

So turn the thing on around 3 so it starts warming the place up. But don't leave it running all day. And that's – That's fancy. Yeah, that's actually kind of nice because some places I go, I actually pay – they meter me and I actually pay for how much I use. Some places I go, it's free. So it's nice when I'm at somewhere that'll actually watch the meter and charge me. It's nice to be able to have that kind of control. See, that makes this more exciting. Like, imagine then, like,

you know, maybe if you're like Charlie or other people, you already have some of these devices. But then if you have your own devices or you wouldn't be able to interface with that, see the data in another way, maybe have it interface with a non-proprietary format or just store it locally, that would be cool. One of the things they were showing me there, so we, that, I just gave you guys like the real raw stuff,

just the real specific, like this is what Edge X Foundry does. But they then took me over to like their R&D side of the room, and they have like three major sections. Well, actually they have four major sections. So you walk into this room, this lab, and it's like a lobby. There's like a couple of couches, some chairs. Then to your left they have a mini lab and this mini lab is where the bulk of that

video just took place, which I have, by the way, if you're listening on the audio, I have the video embedded in the show notes. It's only four minutes long. It's kind of worth checking out. That's the mini lab. Then they have a glass window. On the other side of the mini lab is like a fucking lab. It's like a lab, dude.

It's like false floor, false ceiling, racks, like full on, like can't go in there, no media allowed. Don't even think about it, dude. Lab. Then next to that, they have like this R&D room. It's like this long room, one window at the end of it, brown walls, and all along the walls is gear just mounted like crazy, like tons of different like IoT stuff, everything from custom in-house built stuff that looks super crazy and esoteric to Amazon Echoes, like the whole range. Wow. And what they were trying to demonstrate to us was you can go completely local. You hold all the data.

You hold all the analytics. You do all the controlling of all of these devices on the LAN. Or if you really want to, you can go as far as you can abstract all of this away to an echo. And so they showed me where they can start a motor actuator and start something going down a conveyor belt and an arm using a dot. Wow. That's pretty slick. And they're like, the real thing we see here, and this is how far out they're going.

That's pretty slick. And they're like the real thing we see here, and this is how far out they're going. Like the first thing, the first stage we see this is the worker is doing something and their hands are full. And so they're using voice commands to trigger something. And I guess people are experimenting in the workplace with dots. But they're like, but what we kind of have a long-term thing here is it's AR. Like what we are working towards is creating sensors that we can mount in things and on top of objects. And then all of these sensors will give data back to the Edge X Foundry box. And that Edge X Foundry box will supply data to an AR headset that, you know, you're looking

at the engine and you're looking at real-time stats and schemes, schematics and temperatures and all that stuff, and all real-time data that the Edge Xbox is processing, collating, and then feeding an AR headset. Totally way out in the future stuff, but, like, that's how far they see this going. Like, right now, today, it's just about a framework to manage IoT in the enterprise. But in the far future, it could be the key part to feed a real-time data feed to an AR headset. Are we just making the sensory organs for our future AI overlords, Chris?

Yeah, we are the biological bootloader for sure, my friend. Yes, absolutely. And this is a key part of that. Right, yeah. So do your duty. Help out. Make no mistake about it, Wes. But let's be honest, it's going to be way better.

It's going to be great, yeah. I could see it, Wes. But let's be honest. It's going to be way better. It's going to be great. Yeah. I could see it, too. Like, I could see, like, you're working at Boeing or you're a doctor. Like, I could so see it. So it seemed inevitable. It really does seem like you. It does, yeah. When you have technology, like the HoloLens or even Google Glass, like, and then you have the data and the devices doing the analytics.

And they are, they didn't want to, they didn't want to come across to me as biased. They're like, we're very sure to make sure I understood that it could run on multiple operating systems. And they have partnerships with Red Hat and SUSE and Microsoft. But it is clearly to me – it is clear to me that to them, they prefer running all of this stuff on Ubuntu Core. Something about working with Canonical. I think Canonical is the right size for them. They're not too big, not too small. Dell can have some influence.

Yes, totally. I don't know. It just seems like to them like this is – They have experience working with them. Yeah. It was fascinating to see. So while we were there, servers, obviously, storage. And it turns out – and I'm going to try to find more information about this, though,

Dell's also working on a Debian-based network switch OS. Right, yes. I remember us talking about that. Yeah. So I've got to get more information on that, but there's just a huge range of stuff they're working on over there, and so this is one of it. But like they put in the Linux Foundation announcement,

the Foundation says, this is coming from the Linux Foundation, that EdgeX Foundry is unifying the marketplace around a common open framework and building an ecosystem of companies offering interoperable plug-and-play components. I guess that's actually pretty parsable. They say it's designed around any hardware or operating system with any combination of applications environments. And EdgeX can quickly and easily deliver interoperability between connected devices, applications, and services. All right. It's just getting ridiculous. You know what's crazy too is they make it worse because it's just a bunch of commas.

So this sentence has one, two, three, four commas in it just to explain all of these buzzwords. Yeah. It's too much. But anyways. See that list there of the companies. That's more interesting. That is actually legit in here and good on them. Lenaro is in there.

That's interesting. Yeah. Yeah. VMware. Oh. Yeah. VMware is pretty involved with the Linux Foundation. Yeah.

And of course Canonical, which I think is the bigger part because that's what's going to be powering the machines that are managing all of this. So that's the part that actually is maybe more takeaway. Anyway, something to follow. So it's the EdgeX Foundry. Not a ton of people in our space are talking about it, but I think it's because we don't realize it means bringing a lot of this Internet of Service, Internet of Things to the LAN, controlling it there. And it's one of those like, you know, Dell hasn't talked that much about it. Other people haven't talked that much about it.

And it's one of those like those enterprise business-to-business things. It just happens behind closed doors. It is very much that. And I think one of the bigger stories here that is sort of hard to relay is it's super intentional that Dell is not talking a lot about this. It is a big deal that this was a Linux Foundation announcement and not a Dell announcement. I can see that, yeah. I think Dell very much wants this to be an open source community project

and they are so willing to push that angle that they are, do you understand, like it's a big deal for a company not to take the PR one for this. Yeah, totally. Like they're, because they could have come out, this could be the Dell Edge X Foundry. Yes.

To be very clear about how much development happened there. But they've worked since the beginning of this project to make it a Linux Foundation thing. You don't just get 22 companies. That took like a year of work. And a lot of agreements and other things that have to be signed. Legal things to work out. That's a bigger story. I don't know how to

quite tell it. That's a very intentional thing they're doing. We've talked a lot about maybe the downsides or the controversy of the Linux Foundation, but maybe this is an example of the other things they do that other types, you know, not an industry organization can't do. Yeah, and this was never – these types of tools and IoT is never going to be a credible thing you can use in the enterprise that's actually manageable and securable unless something like this came along. Yeah. And so if it was one – Let me get my app on my phone that connects to this private cloud and then – yeah, that's

not – Imagine if this was Apple doing an extension of HomeKit. It would have – it would be so less relevant to how it's going to impact the industry. Doing this as an open source Linux foundation effort I think long term might actually make this legitimately a real – like the real products that we can use in the enterprise. Speaking of things that are legitimate and real and you can use right now, DigitalOcean, digitalocean.com. Go there and sign up.

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for sponsoring this here Unplugged program. So this is a hell of a story here. And I commend them for getting a release out. This is not going to be a mocking thing. I say this is actually potentially a good thing. A little competition actually is a very good thing. Duvon? Devuan?

Devuan? Oh, yeah, that's right. Devuan. Devuan. There we go. Devuan. Devuan GNU slash Linux has been released, version 1.0. Jesse, I've heard that before.

I bet Debian's totally going to sue him for trademark. Was just announced. The release candidate is actually out. The Devuan project, as I'm sure you recall, is Debian without the D, without the system D, init system. And instead they're using, I don't know, probably Hope, Bubblegum, and Magic. Maybe Ponies? What's that, init system? Oh, I'm sorry.

And so I actually thought first I was going to laugh this off. And I thought, this is no big deal. Who cares what Devuan is doing? And then I started thinking about it a little bit. And why the hell not do it? If you want a sort of a Debian of a different era and on more importantly than that though, what a great potential base for a bunch of re-spins. Like maybe Devuan itself won't be massively popular, but I could actually, for some weird reason,

see like a Remix respin derivative that uses Davuan as its base, building a really competitive Linux distro. Yeah, I mean, I can see that too, especially, I feel like Debian's, I mean, a lot of the strengths of that family is the huge app to repos. They put a lot of efforts into, like, you know, the Etsy defaults, alternatives, all that kind of stuff, right? There's, like, you can, there's a lot of configurability and options built right in. So I can see, I don't know about the desktop space, but on the server side, container side, other things. Oh, yeah.

I can totally see. Maybe you want, like, an old-style, minimal, you know, reproducible init system that just starts things in a row. Okay, great. Yeah. Or maybe on even like a – like they're working on Raspberry Pi 2 and Pi 3 support right now. I could see that. Anybody in the Mumbler, what do you think about a system D-less Linux? Do you care anymore?

So one of the other things we thought was interesting about this story, and this might be something somebody could jump in on, is it's 2017. And this might be something somebody could jump in on. It's 2017 and the multi-year hoopla that was systemd has passed us. And essentially it's just been normalized now into Linux culture. Wow. Does it feel good to say that? I think so. So here we are now in 2017 and I'm feeling like things are actually worked out pretty good.

We haven't had a security nightmare that's rolled across Linux, leaving us all exposed. Well, at least not because of systemd. Yeah. Boot times, man, I got to say, great. The one way I interact with systemd on a more frequent basis is boot up time. And so far, my systemd-based systems boot a lot faster.

And systemd service scripts or service units, whatever they're called, just make a lot more sense to me. It is really easy to write a unit file and just like turn this into a service, please. And the systemctl, you know, enable such and such and stop and start. Like all those commands are really straightforward. And I cherish the fact that I can log into multiple different distros now and use the same command.

That is really nice. Cherish that. I came from a time where that was not the case. Never going to happen. Yeah. Every distro had its own syntax for enabling, disabling, and starting and stopping services. Every distro did. And then we finally got that like service wrapper right at some point.

But it didn't bring any features because it was too disparate. And still, there was frequently variations in the names of the services, which is also standardized now. Is it Apache 2 or HTTPD or who knows? Yes. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Exactly. And now that's much more normalized as well.

Like these are all things that we had to struggle with back in the day that I feel like system D has helped with. And now here we are, here we are in 2017. And monkey comm has just moved to system D like just moved to system D monkey comm. How has it been for you? Oh, it sucked in the beginning. I mean, just, well, you have the thing where you move your my SQL server from let's say 12 to 16 and everything's working great until everything doesn't.

Then the jackass you hire to come look at it removes SystemD and wipes out your MySQL install. No. That's always awesome. Whoa. But because he said SystemD was bad. I feel like there is a sitcom at where you work that could be filmed right now. So you had like an outside contractor come in who can't kind of have an agenda,

like an anti-SystemD agenda? I don't know what his problem was, but he got on the database server and it was production development. I mean, it wasn't going to hurt any customers, but it was definitely something I didn't want to rebuild. Right. And yeah, he removed SystemD

and that just completely hosed everything i mean it literally you couldn't even it wouldn't even boot it was bad i mean that kind of makes sense when you remove the internet system that's like uh you're coming here and you're coming in here and fixing it for free kind of bad yeah exactly we really liked having that database so after uh the nuke bomb was dropped and you guys rebuilt the village, how has it been? Oh, it's fine. You just got to learn the tweaks. You got to understand how to exclude it from, you know, system D automatically does a bunch of stuff and especially the security profile. And you just got to know how to deal with it, especially when you're running really

intensive loads. And once you figure that stuff out, it's an excellent solution. And it's much better than a net. And I don't know why anyone would want to go back. It's just, it's a pain in the ass to get your head wrapped around. Yeah, it is definitely a paradigm change. It's new tools, new switches, all that stuff. Yeah. We went through that with SELinux. We went through that with, you know, every time something new comes out that has a performance or a configuration impact, we always freak out and say they shouldn't have done that. But it always improves your life. Yeah, I mean – Or does something.

There was people that – with the transition from Lilo to Grubb, I think some people drew blood over that. Like there has always been big moments we've made moves that have been really, really, really painful publicly. And it's done so in a way that most projects that are commercial projects don't ever get that kind of exposure. And so we get to watch the sausage get made in a way that most people never see. But MonkeyCom, it's fascinating because what you represent is probably the reality. Most shops are just now beginning to make this transition. Like to me, my systems have been running SystemD for ages now.

But people that have like MonkeyCon and probably like yourself, do you have systems in production that are – Absolutely. Yeah, of course, right? There's probably systems I've still set up years ago that are still in production. I just got off of 12. So let's be honest here. And I do think like it's interesting to compare.

Like I've talked to some developers in particular who felt a little burned about the whole Upstart thing. They're like, we finally got off Etsy in it for Upstart. You told us that was the next best thing. And we switched all of our programs. And now we have to switch them again. Which, I mean, I think just that improvement already, it's, like, pretty easy to turn an Upstart job into a SystemD job. So it's not a huge deal. like just the rate of adoption and the expanse of the adoption we've seen means that I don't think that – I don't think – it will take longer than maybe five years probably before we see a new systemd thing that replaces it in the reach that systemd has.

So I think it's in a better position, but I can see why people are like, I have to change again. I don't know if anybody does this out there on the web, but this would be really cool is all of like the top 20 Linux distros. Now, you know what? Let me make it simpler than that. The top four Linux distros used by enterprise. I don't know who determines that. But whatever soul determines that to be fact. We'll just ask Noah.

He'll tell us. That's probably true. I would like just a simple HTML table. It doesn't have to be fancy. Of the current production Linuxes and the kernel versions they're running. And current versions. Yeah, I feel like if you look at the last five years of Linux, this is so true when you look at the enterprise graph.

We are converging in a way that if you gave 2017 current day snapshot Linux, if you took a snapshot of it and showed it to Chris of 1998, I wouldn't call this Linux anymore. Everybody, every major vendor shipping a GTK GNOME 3 desktop, every vendor, every major vendor shipping system D. Now, if you look at the middle layer is system D and the user land is GNU, Now, if you look at the middle layer as SystemD and the user land is GNU, then almost all distros are now exactly common. GTK, GNOME, GNU, SystemD. Linux kernel.

And then I bet they're all based on a semi-modern kernel 4. And more and more of them at the end of 2017 are going to all at least have kernel version 4.10. We're pretty much all going to be, anybody running current Linux, will be on version 4.10 or later of Linux by the end of 2017. So you're going to have this unprecedented, I mean, have we ever been this cohesive as a community ever? Maybe like only when it was just small enough that there couldn't have been this much, you know what I mean? Like early days.

But it's been a long time. And also, by the way, every distribution that matches what I just mentioned also can install Flatpaks. Whoa. So now we have universal application installation capabilities on Linux. I feel like we're talking about BSD. Yeah. Yeah.

Kind of. In a different way. Only way more badass, right? Like, this is way better. Like, it's so awesome. And it could be, it could also be the shittiest things that ever happened to Linux. Like, you have to keep room to understand that one of the things that's made Linux great is diversity, lots of little things, doing single tasks. Like, there is the possibility that this could lead to ruin. But it seems more likely that we are reaching a level of consensus in the community that

is going to make us more targetable, more applicable, more commoditizable, which is going to all lead to a greater adoption, more applications, more use case scenarios. To me, it seems like we're in a better spot than we've probably been in a really long time. Now, we're not quite there yet, but the skate or the puck is certainly skating in that direction. So does that like play hand in hand with what we were talking about before where will that also make it like so that branding and other things matter less when it's all just Linux? Like it doesn't matter if you use Ubuntu or Red Hat because it's like 90 percent the same now. I would use Docker potentially. Oh, God, I can't believe I'm going to throw up a little bit in my mouth when I say this.

So don't judge me too harshly. I would use Docker slightly as the example in some sense here, and I'll explain myself. So what's Docker selling? Docker is selling – this is what sucks for Docker. Docker is basically selling water to folks that have a town well. It sucks for Docker. Docker is basically selling water to folks that have a town well. Like the problem with Docker is they're just selling namespaces, CNAME groups, Linux kernel features, and a bunch of great management utilities on top of that.

Now, if you take away the management utilities, everything else is a commodity of the Linux platform. Like every distribution has the capability of namespaces and control groups. Systemd could make containers. I mean containers or whatever, but right there for you. Right. So this multimillion-dollar company named Docker is selling something that you get for free with the platform. Now that's telling of where we could go in the future because we all could be selling the same thing. But, yeah, we can have a multimillion-dollar company on top of it that is branding and productizing the management infrastructure or the community around it or whatever it is that they do. So there is still space for a Canonical and a SUSE where the product is commoditized because Docker is the example. Docker is selling something that comes for free with Linux.

You get containerized. You install a modern Linux. You've got the core of what Docker can do, and yet somehow, somehow, they're still making money. There's still a name we're still talking about. I thought they were called Moby now. You're right. But you see what I'm saying.

I do see what you're saying, absolutely. It almost makes, it almost gives, it's just at a different layer where the product and the innovation happens. It's at a different layer. There's a common technology base. Which I think is good, right? Like that's a – I like – you know, you always have to decide where that level – where

is the value add layer going to be? I think pushing it up a little higher in the stack is a good thing. Yeah, because what it does is it makes it sane and manageable and deliverable for developers. So I know what I'm targeting. I know how many systems I'm going to be able to run on. And I know how to package it up and ship it for those systems. And I know how it's going to run once it lands there. Those are not things you could actually say about Linux a few years ago, and especially

not 10 years ago or 20 years ago. You couldn't say that. You kind of like depending like, well, if it depends on a couple of libraries, you got a good shot. When you're developing a modern, huge application with all its components, the only way to do it in the past was to say, we work on Red Hat Enterprise 6, and that's it. We've tested for Red Hat Enterprise 6, and we work on Red Hat Enterprise 6, and you must run Red Hat Enterprise 6. And that's the only way we support Linux. That's going to go away.

And what they're going to have now is, well, you must have Linux kernel 4.10. You're going to need systemd version dot, dot, dot. And you probably should install these packages. And that will be the requirements. That's a game changer. That's a game changer for all of us. And then the fact that at the same time that's happening, we just accidentally have Flatpak and Snaps, which are universal package installations. And we just accidentally happened to have all of the major Linux companies now working on the GNOME desktop and GTK. I mean, holy convergence, Batman. That's a whole different type of convergence,

and it's got to be one that's in the long term going to be good. And how the hell is BSD going to compete with that? All right, that brings us to an end of this week's broadcast. One more episode before the big LinuxFest Northwest, Wes. Whoa! I know. It's really snuck up on us. I'm excited now.

I am. I am, too. I'm really looking forward to it. Audience, you should try your darndest to get there. But you know what? Like, every Linux Unplugged is almost like a LinuxFest. You can join us in our virtual Lug. Just go over to jblive.tv, join our chat room, and then do bang!

Mumble, that's the exclamation mark, and you'll get our server address. You join that, you can hang out in our lug. You can also send us an email over at jupiterbroadcasting.com slash contact and get it converted to your local time at jupiterbroadcasting.com slash calendar. Thanks so much for being here. We'll see you right back here next Tuesday! Bye. jbtitles.com Why don't you all go over to that JBtitles.com. Let's pick our title real quick, and then we'll make room for the TechSnap program.

Wes, the light's still burned out in there. I have ordered replacements, but they just take weeks to arrive. Yeah, I'm sure. So you're just going to look like a tan man. All right. I watched last week's episode. You just look like you have a real healthy glow. I like, okay, not a problem for me.

Mumble Room, thank you guys very much. You guys are awesome. Yeah, thank you. Monkey, thank you very much for carrying a lot of the weight. It was fun chatting today. Charlie, it was good to hear what you're working on too. Come back. Yes.

JB Titles, JB Titles, won't you all go boat? I just am tired of Docker being the end-all, be-all of the developers. I mean half the developers don't even know – I mean they know they're developing in Linux, but they've lost all understanding of what they're doing. It's creepy. It creeps you out because it makes Linux feel like it just doesn't matter, like it could just go away and nobody even – oh, they just keep making containers. It's never going to go away because every developer I know, when they build a Docker, they always use the same fucking port and then they put it on a Docker server and nothing works. And then it never gets updates and it sits there riddled with security issues. But that's – yeah, that's got to get worked out too.

Maybe what we need is Edge X Foundry for Docker. Just got so enterprise. IoT biological bootloader is not bad. Oh, WW, you had a rant. You wanted the floor. Go ahead. OK. So chat room, when you type in bang, mom, you chat room. When you type in Bang Mum, you look stupid. If you want to come and join Mumble and talk to Chris and then do Chris last Mumble, hey, I want to say something, then that's what you do. Outside of that, you look like a donkey.

Are you saying they're doing Bang Mumble just to get my attention? Is that what you mean? I don't know why they're doing Bang Mumble unless they want to bring down Furious. Yeah, see, now they're just trolling because that's all they know to do. I was doing it just because I saw somebody else do it and they got the floor. In fact, I think I saw Monkey do it. Well, yeah. Well, if you're in the mumble room, you do mum, Chris Lass, and then what you want to say.

And I'll call on you. Bang mumble, bang mum, bang mum or whatever I think just gives you the server. I'm not even sure what that does. I think bang mum is just a misnomer, which is why it's making – it's rustling some jimmies. There is a way to – like when people preface like a comment, if you do like Chris Lass, mum, colon, and then what you want to say, I almost always will call on you. That seems to be – that was the confusion. Yeah. Yeah.

I don't know why people get confused on it. Because – I'll tell you firsthand. You know what? Because I saw someone do it and they got the floor. Yeah, it's because – and you know what? It's the wonderful cycle of noobs, W.W. It's both glorious and excruciatingly frustrating at the same time.