LINUX Unplugged - Episode 215: Pulse of PipeWire | LUP 215

Episode Date: September 20, 2017

A game changing project for Linux multimedia has been officially announced today, so we chat with the brilliance behind PipeWire, Wim Taymans.Plus community news of the week & why the rapid decline of the “open source media” matters more than ever.

I would want to judge you for using Outlook, Wes, but rumor has it you have a little Outlook rant for us. A little pre-show Outlook. It was just a weird experience. Yeah, at work we have Outlook 365, and honestly, it's fine. It works with Linux, obviously, because it's a web client. It meets my needs, and they pay for it. How practical of you.

Yeah, not what I would set up for myself at home, but I don't have to. I was trying to send a SQL dump, right? So I gzipped it to save space, getting ready to email it, send it off. A couple hours later, I get to come back and say, hey, could you send that again? This looks like a binary data file. And I was like, all right, maybe I made a mistake. I know how gzip works. So I didn't think so.

It turns out anything with a.gz extension, Outlook gzips. So it was a doubly gzipped file. Why would you do it on something that has a.gz? I don't know. So I'd try it with.exe,.bz2. None of those, it didn't touch them, doesn't touch zip files. But it wasn't even after sending it. All I had to do was attach it.

So once it uploaded through the browser, it even was to the point where if I made a tar and I named it tar.gz, just change the file name and then upload it, it would then compress it for me. And it doesn't add an extra gz? No. So that was just bizarre. And it took me way too long to figure out what was going on. I was like, why can't I send this guy a file? And then how was the checksum different after all I did was upload it to them? this guy a file and then how is it how was the checksum different after all i did was upload it to them huh so i don't know if it's a consequence of them trying to do virus scans or just a bug on

their end i might hey you know what notify them about it you got to make sure that those pst files don't get too big west that's true did we got a pixel to leak did the doorbell ring or did i just imagine that no that well uh i am pulling the case out of the box and I accidentally punched myself in the nose. Oh my god, Ben. Oh my god. That's not great. This is Linux Unplugged, episode 215 for September 19th, 2017. Welcome to Linux Unplugged, your weekly Linux talk show where at least part of it's getting ready to ship out to New York. My name is Chris.

My name is Wes. Hello, Wes. Hello, Saul. And as always these days, it's the beard. What's up, beard? Not much. Good, good. I'm glad because you know what? I got a little podcast I need you to help me with right now. That would be great. I'm down. Alright, well we got a great show coming up on this week's episode. We're gonna cover some community news that I figure we should talk about. That's what we'll do at the top of the show. Then just a little bit into the show, we have a special guest

joining us from the newly announced Pipewire project. Very excited to jump into this project, explain what it's about, clear up some misconceptions, and hopefully get to the bottom of why Linux needs a little something like this. Then, I hope you'll stick with me to the end of the show, because I got something I got to get off my chest.

It is an issue that is near and dear to my heart. It's not really unfamiliar to some of you on this show. I hope you'll stick around because it's something super important I want to talk to you about. And I think it has major ramifications for the entire open source community. So we'll dig into that towards the end of the show. But before we can do any of that, there's one ritual in which we must always follow.

And that is saying hello to our virtual lug. Time of appropriate greetings, Mumbleroom. Hey, babe. Good day. Hey there. Hello, guys. Hello. Hello.

Look at that. It's so nice. It's so nice. You guys all came to say goodbye to me. You guys all came. I'm leaving right after the show, and they all knew that. They knew that. They're going to storm the studio, try to take over.

And then I'm driving to see Popey. That's my plan. That's really why I'm going, because Popey's going to be there. There's some others. It's a big drop. There's some other people there. I mean, I heard Ike's going, so I almost considered not going, obviously, of course. Just stay in North Dakota. Yeah.

Is that why you're bringing Noah as insurance? Yeah, well, I got to have my muscle, you know? I heard Ike wants to throw things at me from windows, so I got to be ready. I got to be. I'll admit, I'm fairly jealous. Tell us. I'm looking forward to it. Anyways, let's get into some of the news today. I think this first story is pretty big for a lot of us, more and more so for me these days because I found myself on public Wi-Fi a lot.

Tor has a new release that I think is pretty interesting, and it is specifically version 3.2.1 alpha with support for the next generation Onion Services. This is, I think, inspired after some recent trouble that they've had. It uses the new version 3 of the Onion Service Protocol. And it adds a new circuit scheduler. Hey, that sounds good. It does sound good. That sounds good for more responsive forwarding decisions from relays, which also seems like a great thing. There's a bunch of other changes in here too. I'm

actually just telling you just the super, super highlights of it. They have new major features that I can only barely understand, but it's called a kernel-informed socket transport. Yeah, how about that? It's available on Linux system. It uses feedback from the kernel to prevent the kernel's TCP buffers from growing too full. Oh, nice. Okay. Yeah.

Interesting. Which I would imagine probably has big improvements for Tor network speeds. Yeah. So that's the new version, 3.2.1 alpha. Tons of great stuff in Okay. Yeah. Interesting. Which I would imagine probably has big improvements for Tor network speeds. Yeah. So that's the new version, 3.2.1 alpha. Tons of great stuff in there. Yeah. Are you much of a Tor user? I feel like I'm a criminal when I'm on Tor, but I've been thinking more and more about it.

I've been using a VPN a lot these days, using that. I don't use it a lot currently. I have certainly used it in the past, and I'm glad it exists. I'm glad that they're making good progress. I'm sure, Beard, when you're hanging out on the dark web, you're probably using the tors. Yeah, all the time. I'm only on the dark web. Yeah, exactly.

I guess you stream on the regular Peebweb, because that's where the eyeballs are. No, I use Dark Twitch. Oh, Dark Twitch. Gotcha. Dark Twitch. Good, good. It's got a lot of illegal things on it. It's far more interesting than Dark Twitch. Gotcha. Dark Twitch. Good, good, good. It's got a lot of illegal things on it. Yeah, it's far more interesting than regular Twitch. Well, when you're using your dark web, you can also use Keybase Teams to kick Slack in the balls.

It is a new app to replace Slack, and it uses their famed security and encryption by default. It's got channels like Slack or your Discord out there. It's end-to-end encrypted, which means you don't have to worry about their server reading it, they say. And you can lay awake at night fearing the breach of your company. You don't have to lay awake, I guess. They say that's either use their system or lay awake at night. That's pretty hyperbole, but anyways. They say Keybase accounts are simpler.

You don't have to switch at the top level of an app. Teams can be casual and small. Nice. That is kind of a cool idea. It's quite how we try to do this. I mean, good luck to... I like Keybase.io. Respect the people over there. Good luck to you.

Good luck to you. Following in the good footsteps of Skype competitors and Facebook competitors and everyone who likes to launch an alternative to a platform, Goliath, I say good luck to you. I think, you know, you know what I've been saying. Gosh, Rocket Chat and Matrix and just not enough.

Not enough. Matter most. Yeah, not enough. Not enough. So, and, you know, NextCloud is also kind of squaring in on this too. And not enough. also kind of squaring in on this too. And not enough.

And I'm glad the guys at Keybase recognized this need as well that none of us had and decided to set up a set up of affiliate. It's not like we also had like a, you know, a specific one from Amazon or anything. No, just not enough. Just not enough. So it's good.

And I hope them, I wish for them the best because it seems like they're a great team over there. And if nothing else, I'd rest a little more comfortable thinking open source projects do something like this or, you know, at least your ISISs and your Al-Qaeda's.

This would be nice for them. I like the no upsell about message history. That makes it nice for me. That is nice. And, you know, as your terrorist cells have to migrate off of Telegram, they've got to go to something else. They've got to go to something. Government's got to lean go to something. The government's got to lean on something new. So I think this makes a lot of sense.

And you can find out more at keybase.io slash blog, and we will have a link in the show notes. I want to talk about something serious that happened yesterday, September 18, 2017. And it was the EFF formally resigning from the W3C. EFF formally resigning from the W3C. Now, the W3C is the quote-unquote standards body that has standardized the recent encrypted media extensions that all browsers happily lapped up. Well, I guess not all. And as you can imagine, Cory Doctorow and his colleagues at the EFF were very disappointed, and they challenged this decision.

There's a lot of controversy about how that challenge was handled, and now that things have run their course as a result of the way things have ended up, on behalf of the EFF, Cory Doctorow has resigned from the W3C and has also publicly said here in his post that they will defend those who are put in harm's way for blowing the whistle on defects in EME implementations. In other words, the EFF is publicly stating they will defend people who try to crack EME. This is a really complex issue because you have what are the

expectations of what the W3C actually is expected to do in this day and age, especially the way browsers are actually developed and the reality of the actual market. What were the EFF's expectations? And you could debate EME as a topic itself. Right. Then there's a separate tertiary debate on how the W3C handled the challenge to this entire thing.

So this is a deeply complex issue. And as usual, the dialogue is just mostly consistent of people shouting at each other so far and making rage quit posts. I thought that's how arguments worked, Chris. Don't you know? That's how you get to the bottom of everything. Now, I will give Cory Doctorow, the man writes,

the best rage quit post of them. This is an example for the internet on how to write an eloquent rage quit. Really well done. I'll keep that in my back pocket for the internet on how to write an eloquent rage quit really well done I'll keep that in my back pocket definitely gets the unplugged stamp of approval there and so that was a big movement story

that we're following here and I think it's one of those where we have to wait for a lot of the hype to settle too yes speaking of hype we're going right through the news you can tell I'm excited to talk about pipeline so we're just b through the news because I'm very excited. You can tell I'm excited to talk about pipeline. Oh, yeah. So we're just busting through this stuff.

1804, speaking of hype, Ubuntu 1804. You're ready. You're ready already. Oh, my body's super ready. And as you know, Popey's good buddy Dustin Kirkland was out scouring the web to get users feedback on what default applications should be in 1804. In fact, here's from the horse's mouth. We asked the community across three different forums. When I posted the previous thread about what do you want to see in 1710 to Hacker News,

I immediately got emails from the editors of both Reddit and Slashdot saying, you know, our users want to contribute to this thread as well. And so I said in the future we'd certainly make this, we'd open up the feedback to Reddit and Slashdot. And so we posted this in July, and it was a coordinated effort, as opposed to the first one, which was something that we just sort of shot from the hip. This was one that we put together. I worked with Will Cook, who's the desktop manager at Canonical, and some

of his team to put together what amounted to a survey for the desktop apps. What desktop apps do you use on Ubuntu? Out of curiosity, did anyone here contribute to that survey? So Dustin goes on to provide some of the data that people suggested for default applications in 1804. And you might be shocked, I say shocked, at the conclusion. Desktop users like to use the same old boring crap that they've always liked to use. It seems overwhelmingly the data revealed that people would like to see Firefox as the default web browser. Thunderbird is the default email client. VLC is the default video and music player.

LibreOffice is the default Office suite. G-Edit as the default text editor and Nautilus as the default file manager. Everybody's shocked because they also would like to see GNOME Terminal as the terminal emulator. GIMP is the image editor. Pidgin is the chat messenger. GNOME Calendar, etc. etc. Now,

not too surprising. I was a little disappointed in the VLC on this whole list and Thunderbird a bit but VLC mostly because it feels like a list of people that are stuck in the mud sorry but no MPV clearly better. Anyways moving on from that perhaps realizing that the vast majority

of people taking the survey had no taste I'm totally kidding I'm teasing VLC is great I use it. I mean it's totally fine yeah I use it as well but it's kind of frustrating that we can't have... Something you might want. ...love and cherish and respect... I would prefer to have Chrome. I would prefer to have GNOME MPV.

But GNOME MPV seems like an even stronger argument to me because we should also be excited. And we don't want to hype and we want to still love on VLC, but there's a cool new open source option that maybe people aren't hearing about or don't consider. So to this end, this means Dustin says that they are investigating a potential approach to make Ubuntu desktop experience perhaps a little bit more like choose your own adventure, where you could plug in the different applications you want. That's pretty probably out there, but it is something they're considering is maybe in the future you'll just plug in in gnome mpv and plug in vim and emacs for all the things poppy you were sitting in the room there i saw you i saw your

magnificent head a few times uh is there anything any takeaways from that talk that dustin had that you wanted to share with the class that yeah i i think uh one of the things you've got to be aware of is a lot of people don't actually use desktop email clients or desktop music players. A lot of people use the cloud for their calendar and everything. So, I mean, the graph was a long tail. He showed graphs of how many people responded to each of those categories. And, yeah, sure enough, Thunderbird was on the far left-hand side and a very tall graph. But there are a ton of people who just wrote Google or Google Calendar because their calendaring is synced to their phone and is done in the browser.

And similarly, there are a bunch of people who use Spotify for their music or Pandora or something else. There's a significantly sized trend of people who just don't use desktop applications for doing their daily stuff, and the vast majority of it is done in a browser you know look at a chromebook vast majority of people who use chromebooks are perfectly happy and can listen to music and can look at their calendar they just don't use big fat applications to do it yeah i did notice that just about there was a very long tail just about everything you could imagine or name was on there at some degree and and to your point about gnome mpv i think a sizable proportion of the open source

community have no idea that exists like vlc is in everyone's head the stupid little um icon right everybody recognizes that you know everyone has fondness at christmas when it's got snow and a hat on it that's what gnome mpv needs to compete and really take over right yeah that's what you need you need a comedy icon is what you need for your application but i think significant people just don't know no mpv exists and don't realize that it may or may not be better than vlc because vlc for many years has been the go-to application for that yeah and if you're coming from windows too it's much more easier it's much more likely to be something right on windows it's probably kind of it's kind of probably easy you know oh shoot great it's got vlc my favorite was the guy who replied uh for every single

application category emacs yeah i saw that except text editor yeah famous for the text editor yeah you know one of the things that was actually just side note, too, really kind of interesting is not only was it obvious a lot of people were doing software as a service, but Rhythmbox was surprisingly well represented in the data. Interesting. Yeah, that surprised me a little bit. But there was one POBI, and you might remember what it was where oh uh it was vlc actually wasn't it nobody was really using totem even though totem was the default out of the box in ubuntu desktop most people switched to vlc which was sort of an unusual trend yeah i think i think there's a sizable number of people who just default vlc and and that's just you know what they use um but also you know we've tried to make Totem so that it can play anything.

And I know the upstream developers and the people on like GStreamer and Upstream Gnome have all tried to make it as slick as possible that when Totem can't play something, it does the right thing. You know, it goes and gets the right codec package or whatever. And it should. But, you know, sometimes that fails. And people have got it ingrained in their head that when totem fails i install vlc and i think it's got to the point where people preemptively install vlc because you know just to avoid having that situation it works yeah yeah vlc mpv i have it all the codecs built in automatically you have to worry about it and i haven't actually tried totem in a couple years solely because every time i tried it it was like

hey you want to install this thing? No, I'll just install another application. Yeah, that whole thing years and years ago, I remember when I used to run Windows before Linux came along, there was all these little special packages of codecs that you would install. And you'd get these codec packs from here and a codec pack from there. And then when I moved to Linux, there was still like, oh, you've got to go and get this codec pack. codec pack and you're gonna get i just never do any of that anymore it's just not a thing i and i i'm frankly surprised that people still consider the fact that one distro ships codecs over another one that doesn't is still a thing as well because you know i i just never and. And I view some ropey, dodgy MP4 and strangely encoded stuff all over the place, and it all just works. So maybe that's a solved problem.

I think it is. We should certainly be grateful anyway. The whole talk's pretty good. It's a little like a little bit of getting inside the head of the semi-silent majority that runs Linux. It's not like the total silent majority because they obviously fill out the survey. But it was over 10,000 respondents across multiple sites. It was a huge, one of the number one threads on Hacker News

for a long time. So you got quite a bit of data. They did some language processing against it, did a lot of reading. And Dustin just does like a high-level overview of what some of the team has pulled out. And that video is embedded in the show notes. If you'd like to watch the whole thing and get inside the head of the average Linux user, or quote unquote, I don't know about average, because they're on Hacker News and

other sites, but maybe your typical like DevOps, IT, sysadmin, what's another buzz term for it? Cloud worker. What do we call these people that they're trying to target these days? That category of user, that's who they got to hear from. So if I were a System76 or a Dell or an Intraware, I think I'd be watching that talk by Houston and just getting a little insight into what the users are doing with the system once you ship it. All right, we've got to talk about Pipewire. I am, well, we'll get into why I think it's going to be great. But let's take a moment right here and thank Linux Academy for sponsoring the show.

Go to linuxacademy.com slash unplug to support this show. And sign up for a free seven-day trial. And that's sweet because you can kick the tires and get an idea of what the platform is capable of. It's a full-featured training library with everything you need to learn new skills and advance your career. Self-paced in-depth video courses on every Linux, Cloud, and DevOps topic with hands-on scenario-based labs give you real experience and confidence to work with it. Learning Paths, which are a series of courses and content

planned by instructors for a career track you're trying to get into. Human Beans When You Need Them, which is unique and great for an online platform like this. Exams and practice quizzes and things like that to get you ready for the test. And they also have certification training, which are courses that are created specifically to prepare you for the exam. One of my favorite features is you choose your distribution.

The courseware matches that and the cloud servers that they spin up for you on demand when you need them and then you can SSH into to work all match. And they have nuggets when you're busy. They have course schedulers when you're stuck, when you need to stick to a time when you're just crazy busy, like maybe you're going to New York or something like that.

They got course schedules for that. It's great. It's one of my favorite features. And also, I loaded up their iOS app on the old iPad. I'm going to try that out on the road trip. Ooh, that seems very convenient, yeah. Yeah, I'm excited about that. Linuxacademy.com slash unplug.

Sign up for a free seven-day trial, and a big thank you to Linux Academy for sponsoring the Unplugged program. So, Pipewire, a game changer in Linux multimedia, possibly. I'm very, very excited to, I'm going to say, Wim, is that how you say your first name? Wim Tammis? Give me your whole name, I sound like a jackass

It's pronounced Wim Tymons Okay And you're going by W.T. here in the mumble room So thank you for joining us Wim It's great to chat with you I've been Kind of tangentially covering Pipewire

But I don't really, obviously I don't know much about it because it's so new. So could you kind of give the audience a basic overview of what Pipewire is? Because a lot of them are going to be familiar with things like G-Streamer, Pulse Audio, and those types of technologies, but I don't think they're familiar with Pipewire yet. and those types of technologies, but I don't think they're familiar with Pipewire yet. Yeah, so it's a new attempt to try to combine the good things that you can find in GStreamer and in Jack

and a bit in Pulse Audio and also in the Cross Audio Server. That's a premium audio server. So, yeah, it's kind of like GStreamer, AudioServer. That's a Chromium AudioServer. So, yeah, it's kind of like GStreamer, but built differently. So there's plugins that is more like

modeled around real-time plugins. The kinds that you find like in Lots Power LV2. They do very little, but they are very, you can achieve very low latency with them, stuff like that. Let me ask you, let me double check to see if I'm tracking you. So essentially Pipewire is eventually a replacement for Pulse Audio

and it would also be a video pipeline or API that applications could use to make sound or get sound or to create video or send video? Yeah, so to understand that, you have to think a bit about the history. So at first, I wanted to write video sharing or video camera using GStreamer, so using a multimedia framework to do these things, which worked.

It was called Pulse Video. But then I started to think, okay, I can do audio with this as well. There is no reason why I couldn't do that. And then I started to think, okay, I could start to do something like Pulse Audio. I could write it in G-Streamer. start to do something like Pulse Audio. I could write it in GStreamer. But then I started to bump against limitations such as low latency, which were difficult to achieve. So then I set out to build something better

that is still a multimedia framework that would allow me to build things like Pulse Audio. And I'm also targeting Jack. Yeah. And the plug-in aspect, I kind of want to chat more about, but I guess to kind of keep with the background here, is it also a major factor in this Wayland and applications sharing audio and video inside a sandboxed Wayland world?

Yes, so exactly. Currently, all video applications that capture from a camera, they directly access your device, video zero. So from a sandbox point of view, you just have to make that node visible

to the sandbox with zero security. So any app can just open the camera and start capturing whatever you're doing. So you need some way to move that outside of the sandbox, which we've already done with Pulse Audio. There's a daemon running outside of the sandbox. The sandbox goes to the daemon to access the device

and we implement policies to restrict what you can do. So we need something similar for video. So need to have a demon sitting there that accesses the camera and and restricts who can do what with it so that is that is one aspect to make this work in a sandbox world we need a demon that sits there and does the control of access which we don't have for video at all. So this is the first priority that Pipewire was built. So if we didn't have something like Pipewire in the Wayland universe, you would have exclusive application access to, say, the webcam, and then no other application would be able to get access?

Am I tracking that? Yes, yes. Well, if you're doing a daemon that controls access to the camera, you can start implementing sharing. That makes sense. Okay, that does make sense. So let's talk a little bit about the difference between this and GStreamer, because if I'm understanding you, it does support GStreamer audio plugins to an extent for the audio capabilities and plugins but it's not it's not g streamer so no it's well there is a plugin system which is way way way more low level than g streamer plugins Ah, okay.

So, yeah, it's really more low level. You have to do everything yourself, the memory management of the buffers and all of that. And on top of that is actually the pipe wire, a layer on top of that, that does all the negotiation and manages these plugins. So it's not exactly like GStreamer, which is one big... Right. ...does it everything. Right. It's...

Yeah. I've heard... I would like a little clarification. I've heard discussion around Pipewire about getting latency down on the audio in Linux for recording purposes and mixing purposes. Is that a goal of Pipewire? and can you talk a bit about that? Yeah, absolutely.

So currently the only thing that is reasonably low latency on Linux is Jack. Right. So the way Jack works is very to the point, I would say. It's very efficient the way it's implemented, but it's also very insecure. You can't really use it in a sandbox. Yeah, sure.

It has a huge 100 megabyte sorry, yeah, something like that. A huge file in shared memory that is mapped by all applications. You actually have the whole data exchange happen. So any client can look at anything else from everything else.

You can actually write in that memory and destroy. Oh, wow. Yeah, that's pretty interesting. Yeah, from a security point of view, that doesn't work, but it's very efficient. So, but essentially's very efficient. But essentially, the way it works is you get your sound card, there's a sample ready, and then it does a few checks, it wakes up an application, and from the shared memory, the application can immediately read the memory, process it, and put it in another piece of shared memory where the daemon then picks it out and plays it back again.

So there is super, super low latency there. If you compare that, for example, with Pulse Audio, it has the same kind of wake-up mechanism, but then it goes through different threads to signal applications. goes to another thread with lots of data structures, goes back to the server where it gets picked up and then it gets copied and stuff like that. So it's a bit less efficient and it is not exactly... You can't achieve the same kind of loadings. It's also not designed for doing these things

that Jack does Jack wakes up every 2 milliseconds let's say and all the applications that are part of the graph they get woken up so it's like lockstep every 2 milliseconds something gets done. I see. Yeah.

That is fascinating insight. That explains a lot of the audio end. Can you talk a bit about, because for my personal interest, I'm curious more about the video end. Is this a means to an end to efficient video-accelerated GPU-decoded video? Is that part of Pipewire or could be part of Pipewire in the future? Yeah, that is definitely something that I want to do eventually.

But currently that is pretty well handled by GStreamer as well. Ah, okay. Okay. Yeah. So in the future, will GStreamer then be able to leverage Pipewire? Yeah, so currently I have a couple of GStreamer elements

where you can get data from a Pipewire instance and send data to a Pipewire instance. So there's a communication mechanism there. Okay. So you can upload stuff and download stuff. And that works with compressed formats, video. So when do we start seeing this land in our Linux distros near us? Like when does this stuff actually start shipping?

So currently it's in Fedora 27. So we'll be in Fedora 27, so we'll be shipping Fedora 27. The idea is to use this for screen capture. So there is a bit of stuff going on behind the scenes to get this working with the screen capture. There's a portal API to

start it, and then what basically happens is that the GNOME shell mutter creates a new pipe wire stream, which is basically the screen as it is being rendered. That you can then fetch from

several different programs. So you can start a program, for example, to stream this to a remote desktop. Or make an RTSP server or encode it to a file or something like that. I am very excited about that functionality and

that's going to give us remote desktop on Wayland which I am really thrilled about because it's been a number one complaint I'd say by the audience when they talk about switching to Wayland. Audience, Reddit, everywhere. Yeah. That's a great feature that Pipewire is going to bring. I know Eric in our mumble room had a question

for you, Wim. Eric, do you want to go ahead? Yeah. Among other things that I do for a living, I'm actually an audio and video engineer and I'm just curious as to how if this would be one of the goals, perhaps the ability to do multi-track audio recording, say, via USB or something.

I mean, I have the same mixer that Chris does there in the studio, and it's capable of doing 32 tracks in and out via USB. Is that something that this could maybe one day be capable of? Yeah, that's one of the goals, yeah. Excellent. That's great. It's going to be a beautiful Linux multimedia future. That is really great.

Is there anything else you want to mention about Pipewire before we chug along? I could talk on for hours, but you'll have to watch my talks in the conferences that are coming up. Okay, very good. I will keep an eye out. And I also have a link to the blog post about the Pipewire launch, too, that people can check out to read more about it. So that's a really exciting one.

Thank you very much for joining us and talking a little about it. I look forward to watching this develop. Yeah, definitely. All right. Thank you. Now, we have many things to do today in the show. So I have something very near and dear to my heart that I want to talk about. This is a good one for me.

This is a good last episode because I was really looking forward to talking about Pipewire. And this next thing, it wasn't really going to be a show topic. And then, I don't know, something just switched on this morning in my head. Now it has to be. So let's take a moment and thank DigitalOcean for sponsoring the Unplugged program. And thank you for visiting DigitalOcean. And then you use our promo code. You use our promo code sponsoring the Unplugged program. And thank you for visiting DigitalOcean. And then you use our promo code. You use our promo code

DOUnplugged. It's one word you apply to your account after you've created the account. And then you get a $10 credit over at DigitalOcean. And keep your eye out because very soon DigitalOcean, a little birdie tells me they'll be rolling out object storage. Very, very soon. I was just playing with that beta.

Were you? Yeah. Nice. They turned it on for me, too, so I could play with it. It's a lot of fun. Digital Ocean's always added new features. So they recently added load balancing as a service and monitoring and metric performance monitoring. They've also done what they call cloud firewalls. It's actually pretty brilliant because instead of you doing the firewall

at your machine, they apply the firewall rules at the network layer so the packets never even make it to your machine. They have lightning-fast networking, too. 40-gigabit connections come into those hypervisors. They run Linux on those things, using KVM for the virtualizer. Data center is all over the world. Load balancing is a service. Pre-built open-source applications ready to deploy and pricing that's going to blow your mind.

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You haven't even mentioned that? No. That's like one of the main features. I know. Dashboard for days. It's because it's so easy to use, you kind of forget about it. It is. And they also have that API, which use, you kind of forget about it. It is. And they also have that API, which we've now built bots around and stuff, which is really well documented, easy, straightforward to use.

It's been great for us. DigitalOcean.com. Go over there, create your account, and then use our promo code of absolute power and knowledge, DOUnplugged. That's one word. DOUnplugged over at DigitalOcean.com. And a big thank you to DigitalOcean for sponsoring the Unplugged program okay, so I want to talk about something that is not a totally new topic to this show

but I do think it's a pretty big problem but I want to set a couple of ground rules some disclosures up front I'm not talking about any one particular person I'm not talking about any one particular person. I'm not talking about any one particular business. This is a bigger problem than any one person or business or company or media outlet. I'm sorry, Chris. Thank you.

And it's something that I'm personally very invested in because I've followed the Linux news for 11 years very closely every week reading and analyzing it. I cover in a lot of my shows. And so watching this has been has been it's it's actually taken a toll a bit because of because of something very special about the open source community. More than ever, I really feel like the quote unquote open source media or Linux journalism has taken a nosedive of quality, specifically in the written medium, but also with some of the media outlets too. Just really gotten bad. There's fewer and fewer reporters that are actually going to a story, that are creating new content. And what's mostly happening now,

creating new content. And what's mostly happening now, because it's easy and good business, is we have lazy, virtue signaling, clickbait journalism that touches on people's emotional buttons and gets people fired up and sharing content and retweeting and thumbing down or thumbing up either way, angry and happy. And it works so well. It works so well. You see it all over the place. It's media everywhere. It's not just a Linux problem. But I believe in the open source community, it has devastating consequences. I think it murders people's passion and energy to contribute. And we all know that a large reason why people contribute to open source

is because it's a passion project or why people go out on a limb and advocate in their commercial company to be a member of the open source community, to work upstream. It takes a passion to be willing to take that risk. risk. But when the tone of conversation is mostly discourse based around toxic strawman arguments, that the bar has been set by this bottom-feeding media who's not creating anything new. That's the most offensive thing. They're not making anything new. They're creating discussion about the discussion. This community, the open source community, is a worldwide community of developers of different cultures, creating different projects for different reasons, coming together to make something amazing. And predominantly the conversation in the open source media space

is discussion about the discussion, things to get people riled up and excited, virtue signaling. And I think it's devastating in the open source community. And what's really troubling to me is it's getting worse. And there's less and less actual, quote unquote, journalists going to these events and covering events or going to communities and finding out what they're making. And I will use us as an example for a moment here. But look at the projects that have come on the show over the last 215 episodes.

They generally do really well afterwards, not because of this some magical effect of the show, but because they connect with our audience and they express what their goals are and their intentions. And our audience likes that they buy into their ideas. And it doesn't it's not about the show, it becomes about the project. And that project grows and they get contributors and they get word of mouth. It creates something. It contributes something to the open source community. But this diversive clickbait, emotional button pushing, bottom feeding journalism that we

have now does the opposite. It's devastating. So this is my rant. This is my rant. And I always I've made this case before. I've made this case before. And I'm not done making it. In fact, now I'm going to I'm just going to I'm going to call out some names. And I'm going to give you some examples right now on the show. Because this is a problem that is getting worse. And apparently not talking about it enough hasn't done anything. And not calling out names hasn't done anything. So we're going to get to that next.

I solemnly swear by my oath as a crime fighter that this outrage will not go unavenged. To the Bat-Boss. But first, I want to thank Ting. Go to linux.ting.com and sign up for the nation's best mobile coverage. What a company. linux.ting.com. Go there to experience really incredible customer service.

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Check it out. Go to linux.ting.com. You'll get $25 off your first device or $25 in service credit if you bring a compatible device. linux.ting.com. Thanks to Ting for sponsoring the show. linux.ting.com. Yes, sir.

And none of that was clickbait. It's all true. It is true. It is all true. I'm going to be using Ting all the way across the nation. Tried and tested. So I generally have a lot of respect for Matthew Garrett, but I'm going to start here. This is the beginning of a beast right here. And it is a disgusting, grotesque aspect of the Linux community, and it's perfectly displayed right here. aspect of the Linux community, and it's perfectly displayed right here. So Matthew Garrett tweets on the 23rd of July, 2013, sitting on a plane watching Jim Zimlin use OS X. So he's shaming the head of the Linux Foundation back in 2013. Four years later, this is September 10th, 2017,

four years later, at Jim Zimlin is still rocking an iPad and doing his slides under Mac OS X. at Jim Zimlin is still rocking an iPad and doing his slides under Mac OS X. This starts a cascade of shit, including people jumping in, hawking hardware, hawking OpenSUSE. But it develops then into a series of YouTube videos and Reddit posts where people get clickbait, and itsfoss.com posted this. Linux Foundation head calls 2017, year of the Linux desktop while running Apple's macOS himself. And take shots at Jim throughout the entire article. He even says here in the IIT Foss article, perhaps I'm creating unnecessary controversy.

Perhaps this is simple. Should be ignored. This thing that we do is gross because it's shaming people for their choices. And it wouldn't be accepted in thousands of other contexts in our daily lives. But when it comes to picking a Mac or Windows, and we're Linux users, all of a sudden we get to shame. If they were Jews, we couldn't say these things. If they were black, we wouldn't be these things. If they were black, we wouldn't be saying these things. If they chose to have bisexual sex, we wouldn't be saying these things.

If a man wanted to become a woman, we wouldn't be saying these things. But because Jim runs a Mac, it's okay to publicly shame him. Now, I happen to know there's people in this mumble room right now, shocker, they're not using Linux. You're going call them out aren't you that's what's gonna happen next watch out you know what i really what really gets me is uh someone sees jim on an airplane and he's using an ipad well depending on the day you saw me you might see me editing video on my macbook because guess what pipewire isn't shipping yet so i use a macbook to edit my videos now i own three laptops. Only one of them is a Mac.

The other two run Linux. But if you saw me that day on my Mac, you might tweet out, oh, just saw Chris Fisher had a Jupyter Broadcasting using a Mac. What a dick. Well, you know, Chris, all the shows are edited on a Mac, too. Yeah, we are. We are just a bunch of heretics. Trying to sabotage Linux.

From within. Yeah, we're Mac lovers trying to pretend to be like Linux. So with no information, with no quotes from Jim. Right, this is not an interview discussing like, you know,

maybe he feels the same way about it. We don't know. Maybe he has two Linux desktops at home and just prefers to have a MacBook for a laptop.

Because guess who else does that? Linus Torvalds. Maybe he has a MacBook running Linux. Well, I mean, even if he's running Mac or Windows.

Like that, the point is, or an iPad. At what point do we stop shaming? When does that not like on crazy train to yell at him for something they have no idea. And every single time someone does it, they always like, well, you know, I couldn't get it confirmed or anything, but I'm going to go still go off on a tangent and yell at this guy. He's using a Mac up on stage. And I am not arguing the optics of this look bad. Like get a loner laptop running Linux and go up there. optics of this look bad. Like, get a loaner laptop running Linux and go up there. Of course, then there would be headlines, head of Linux Foundation prefers Fedora, head of Linux Foundation prefers OpenSUSE.

So then there would be those headlines, but they would be at least of a different caliber. So I agree that the optics look bad. However, the Linux Foundation is not a Linux desktop advocacy group. Wake up, everybody. That's not what they're there for. That's not where they have members like VMware. They're not there for the desktop, okay? They're there for the business.

Or members like Microsoft. Right. Microsoft is more of a Linux desktop advocacy company than the Linux Foundation is, though, because Microsoft makes Visual Studio Code, for God's sakes, and they make other applications for Linux. The Linux Foundation is a business representation of Linux and that arm, and they fund other projects that do good work. Like the Core Infrastructure

Initiative. And if you go to these conferences, like the camera that's pointing at Jim, if you turned that camera around and took a picture of the audience, I would be willing to take a rough bet, 70-80% MacBooks in that audience. The rest would be mostly Lenovo's and Dell's and the half of them would be willing to take a rough bet, 70% to 80% MacBooks in that audience.

The rest would be mostly Lenovo's and Dell's, and the half of them would be running Windows. So Linux is a minority at these conferences. Don't kid yourself. And the idea here that people have to pass some sort of purity test, and we all love to take a shot at our authority figures in Linux. So everybody got a shot at the Linux Foundation. We got to take them down a notch. Got to take Jim down a notch. So everybody feels really good about that. And Jim passed our purity test.

So now we all get to virtue signal about that. And we're all feeling pretty good right now. It's gross. And it doesn't get anything done. Nobody's creating anything. That's what it stands out to me. Or we're not like, what are the reasons he can't use Linux on his desktop if there are some? Those are things maybe we should be talking about and figuring out how to make that better.

And isn't the mechanics of this interesting? It starts with, like if you think about it, the very origins of this are gross. Matthew Garrett, they're publicly shaming. He's Mac-shaming someone. And then he does it years later again on his Twitter feed. And then you have YouTubers and bloggers who then try to get clicks off of it. And none of them have a single poll quote from Jim. It's remarkable.

It is the bottom-feeding journalism that is suffocating the dialogue in the open source community. It makes us spin and chase our own tails, and it lowers the starting point of the conversation. And you can say, well, Chris, it's just about filtering the news that you take in. It's just about making sure that you pick the right sources. The problem is the dialogue at a wider wider higher level is getting set low the bar is getting set low it doesn't matter what source you're getting it from the conversation just look at the big things that have happened to linux recently or go back to systemd it's eating us up and it's it's it's something that i feel like i am almost powerless to solve because

like i said it's bigger than one person and it's bigger than one company yeah and i think about the amount of people that go to these events and cover these events and it's it's painfully small i regular linux journalists who go to like guadec or whether or not they don't go to that but say they go to DebConf or the Open Source Summit or something, it's four or five people, and two of them work at Jupyter Broadcasting. I'm serious.

It does make it hard to have a diverse network of coverage. And the only thing I can figure to try to fix this is to compete at a level that makes clickbait journalism not as appealing and makes them have to compete. And I don't know how to get there. And my thought is starting to go to things like the Ubuntu rally or going at talking to projects as things are being developed and spotlighting them on the show is maybe a way to do that.

Go to the story. You know, when I when I think of this Ubuntu rally, I don't think of it so much of as an Ubuntu event as I do about going to a large person, a large company in the community who's at an interesting transition right now. Learning how they work, how they interact with the community, networking with people, and using that to influence and give insight into my future commentary. Right. You get a different view of this that you can share. And it is a type of perspective that you don't get by just sitting in front of your crappy YouTube setup and blabbing your mouth or throwing up some cheap post on a blog somewhere, hoping that you get a few ad clicks off of it. And the cost of doing it is substantially greater.

And the time it takes is substantially higher and more. So it seems like an impossible fight. And you have to go by my word that I hear over and over again. In fact, it's one of the things I hear the most is people burn out because of it and they they give up and it's it's it's it's people that if i said their names it would shock you and it's people that you've never heard of before it's the whole freaking spectrum and i know it's a real problem and i hear a lot about it and i feel powerless to do anything about it and it feels like it's getting worse like we're slipping deeper and deeper into this shitty clickbait abyss yeah it's it's awful and there's the hate that people send about all kinds of different things like the canonical hate for no reason um but and they're in other companies that are doing something similar that it gets no attention whatsoever yet you know

other companies just get hate regardless if they just open their mouth like why why do you need to hate someone for making open source software shouldn't even if you don't want to use it shouldn't you appreciate the work they're putting out there for you yeah we covered a we covered an intense story in coda radio this week that just went out a couple days ago or yesterday well i just wanted to clear up something i looked up i'm looking since this entire thing started. I've been trying to find any evidence whatsoever that this is even true.

It's not true. I think you can see a picture of it. You can go on the YouTube channel. They don't show what slides there are. There's no photos whatsoever. I couldn't find a single photo. None of these articles I've seen have a photo of it either. I saw someone had a stock photo of a MacBook as if that's proof or something.

Wow. But every single one of them are referencing each other in a cyclical, crazy attack. Like the one, like the It's Foss was referencing some YouTube channels. The YouTube channels are referencing the Twitter. The only thing we have is Matthew Garrett's word that it happened. But so he took the time to make a tweet you're like well that's not a big deal he also took the time to find the older tweet that he made but not the time to take a photo to prove his statement like that's kind of weird

yeah and because he's using on the plane doesn't mean he was doing it from the podium either that's i didn't right and people are blowing it up as if he did it did it on the keynote you know i think i think there i think i think there is more and more – talking to Rotten made me think – Rotten has really well-researched coverage on his channel. There are people out there that are doing well-thought-out, well-researched pieces. Definitely. Like our friends at Ubuntu Podcast and Late Night Linux and the work they do there. Again, I feel like people that are thoughtful about it, there is a place for that. You don't always have to be creating something brand new or interviewing somebody like there's

a place for thoughtful conversation that does add to a dialogue because again it is an open source community and that's a huge part exactly so there is a so i feel like there is more and more good stuff but it's getting outpaced by the clickbait emotion button pushing and there's such a template out there from like the buzz feeds of the world on how to pull it off. Oh, my gosh. Just, I mean, like going through for, you know, preparing for this show. How much of that do you have to filter cut away and just not? Yeah.

And I feel like it's harder to, you know, maybe for people who haven't, who don't see that much or don't follow as closely or other things. It can be pretty confusing when you're just trying to like you look at various aggregator sites or other things and once it starts being shared those clickbait titles i mean if you don't know any better those will pull you in suddenly you've loaded their ads you've continued you've been in their click count so it could be hard to like actually signal that you're not interested in it what's funny is that you're you're mentioning about the whole researching like the people who research their topics and stuff that i've actually when i first saw this last week i was like i'm making a video about this although i'm going to research and make sure what i say is that i have like another day or two before it's going to be released

because i still have some things i want to make sure that i'm correct about but so far through all the research i've found i've looked through there's not a single reference of any kind to have any proof whatsoever here's an idea why doesn't somebody just email the guy and ask yeah that's what i was wondering i see if i was him i wouldn't answer anyway because it just create it would just create like an extra like him denying people like how could you deny something that we know is true or something i could tell you how the conversation would go with jim if i was if i was at the uh like one of the linux foundation events where jim's at and we're on the side sidebar i'd be boy, can you believe that fucking shitstorm you got for that? He'd be like, yeah, that's really just unbelievable.

Like, you know, when you get real and you get outside your little virtue signaling bubble, you know, you realize people are humans. And to him, he had, you know, he's sitting on a plane. Guess what? The MacBook probably gets four hours more battery life than whatever Linux laptop he was going to bring on the plane. I mean, I hate to be the bearer of bad news,

but that iPad that he got, that this time he got busted for, probably has 11, 12 hours of battery life than whatever Linux laptop he was going to bring on the plane. I mean, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but that iPad that he got that this time he got busted for probably has 11, 12 hours of battery life. That's very freaking competitive. And it feels like it just kind of sends a bad, paints a bad image of desktop Linux users, especially in that world that's so like dominated by servers. Like, well, look, here's this weird, like, you know, strange internet culture. They don't, they're not making money. They're not like, you know, it Internet culture. They don't they're not making money. They're not like, you know, it's not part of the same the same class of people.

And here they are being dicks to me. Why do I why do I care about that? I'm just going to stay in the world. I know I had a really. Oh, go ahead. There's also an argument of like, well, he's running something that he could be using it to learn more about the thing he's using so that he can, like, convince people why this is better than this.

If you have no reference, how can you say something is better than something you've never tried so he could be saying like maybe he has windows machines and mac things and he's just using them for like well he's doing a presentation on a lat on a plane that's not like it's his main his main primary desktop or anything yeah although people are saying that in articles of course yeah well you gotta jump to conclusions to make it worth clicking, I guess. So Swampy, you know, he's one of the journalists that actually goes out there and actually goes to the story, just kind of speaking to those people. And he has a YouTube channel now. And what was it?

He had a topic on it recently that, oh, oh. So it came across our YouTube recommended. And it's a totally, for me, I don't even think about it. I can't find it right now um but uh it was to me like a totally normal title and it was stop converting users to linux and migrate them to linux instead it's a pretty good title and it's uh you know it's done pretty well for him um but hadia saw that and she goes wait a a minute. This is legitimately the conversation we had last night. And I think it's related to this.

She says, is this converting everybody to Linux thing? Is this something more than just Noah? Like, I thought that was just a Noah thing. I'm like, no. She's like, so is that a normal thing for you people to talk about? Like, you know, that kind of thing. That's a little creepy. I'm like, what?

She's like, you don't think it's weird that you guys talk about converting people to linux that sounds like a religion like religious undertones and i'm like oh yeah i yeah i guess it i guess it does have a religious undertone doesn't it yeah you're you're converting and we do or or very culty yeah we and we very very frequently talk about that evangelist is a common title yeah and there's i've never ever said church of neon ever. Yeah. We all do it. And it's because, you know,

we all, we want to advocate it. We're passionate and we think it can actually help. And a lot of us probably have personality types where we're sort of like the trend, the technology trend center in our social group or something like that. So it's, it's not like it's, we're all a bunch of crazies,

but to her, she, I guess she had made the assumption that that was just, well, that's just Noah because he's crazy passionate about Linux. Which is a fine assumption. For a few moments, she was creeped out by it. And then I explained to her, it's like, well, you know,

when you discover something you think is really great, you kind of evangelize it. And she's like, well, you just said evangelize. I'm like, yeah, okay, I'm digging a hole here. In her business, she runs two Linux computers. But it's not about the license or, you know, because she likes Unity or Matei. It's because it's just practical for her.

And I think it's all kind of like we get kind of swept up in this, like I said, morality testing and things like that. And we don't even really realize what we're doing. And we jump into shaming and attacking. Right. Instead of pointing out things like, hey, look, Linux can do this better in some cases. A lot of the dialogue ends up focused being like Windows is garbage and here. Yes. Right. Instead of pointing out things like, hey, look, Linux can do this better in some cases. A lot of the dialogue ends up focused being like, Windows is garbage

and here's why. And when they're like, well, no, but Windows works fine and it has these, you know, it doesn't feel like a full debate. And that's right where we're back at with this.

I've now got two stories, one in an email and I think one in the Haircare Discord channel from a listener who has heard me kind of talk about this a little bit on the pre-show

last week. And he said, I came to LinuxFest Northwest to see you guys, to kind of get more about Linux. Been thinking about switching. I have an old MacBook, which I brought with me. And I got harassed by people in the booths. Not by people at LinuxFest, but people behind the booths. Like somebody was giving him a hard time for bringing a Mac,

and he felt shamed. And I kind of lost my enthusiasm to switch. Two people told me that they got a hard time at LinuxFest Northwest. That's totally the opposite atmosphere that we could want or imagine. And LinuxFest Northwest is always so cool. It's just such a cool, chill place,

like of all walks. Welcoming, yeah, exactly. To be fair, how often have we commented on one of the shows that how many MacBooks are showing up at LinuxCon? Yeah, I know. We are not innocent here because especially back in my Switcher days

when I was really aggressively trying to get people off of Windows and I did consider myself an evangelist. Now I'm more like a, I'm like a, what's a converted evangelist who's now just like, I practice the faith,

but I'm cool if you don't want to practice the faith. I don't know what you call that, but that's the kind of Linux user I find myself to be these days. You show off that Linux works great for you, but you don't want to practice the faith. I don't know what you call that, but that's the kind of Linux user I find myself to be these days. You show off that Linux works great for you, but you don't pressure others. I think that's a bit of the shaming a bit feels like insecurity about it. Like you're insecure that for some reason the guy that runs the Linux Foundation needs to use an iPad. I think you see the same with programming languages or anything like that, right?

You worry because you're thinking, well, it clearly works for them. They must think it's so much better. Yeah. So what about the devil's advocate position? Like, so, Rotten, what about this? What if, you know, a different CEO of a different company, I guess? Well, that's not really fair because it's a foundation. It depends on the company.

Someone will just automatically get a pass regardless of what they do. But the Linux Foundation doesn't make a product. They're a foundation. Part of this whole thing is the nebulous connection between Linux and the Linux Foundation, and then Linux just is a kernel also. So it's all kind of like, the company model is, it'd be easier

to say yes or no, if that makes sense. Yeah, it's more of a, they're an advocacy group, so that's why you're not really doing very good advocacy. Right, yes. I mean, they are because they're showing that they're willing to use the things that other people are using and can show like you know show them that they're not like creating this elitism or anything but there's another thing i thought it was funny that the

same people who would bash him for using an ipad are the same people who say that android's not linux or anything so like as far as tablet go there is no right answer not yet i think there was a new replicant release this week. That might be the... What were you going to say, Beard? What if you saw a chairman member and former CEO Bill Gates using a MacBook at his

charity events? Well, that's... That would be more... I give him a high five. That would be more surprising. But again, Linux Foundation isn't making an operating system directly. They finance Linus. And Linus uses a MacBookbook and nobody gives shit one about that it's only because because we like to take a pop at our authority figures but not our cult leaders like our cultural icons they could they can pick their toes and they can run macbooks and we're good but if you are an authority figure well then you then you're an open target, and we're just going to take a few shots,

because we hate you, apparently. Think about it. It's a super double standard. The Bill Gates and the Steve Jobs joint interview proved that they hated each other, of course. Yeah, yeah. That was a good interview. Yeah.

See, I think it would be different, too, right? Like, Bill Gates, much less attached to Microsoft. I don't think I would think anything of it. Now, if, like think that would be different too, right? Like, if Bill Gates, much less attached to Microsoft, I don't think I would think anything of it. Now, if, like, Satcho was doing it while they were trying to launch the next line of Windows phones, I'd be like, well, you can do whatever you want, but that's probably bad marketing for your company. Or Tim Cook using an Android. Yeah. That would be crazy. And that would be, you know, that would be hard for them to explain.

my argument would be like if you have like let's especially the phones because the phone's the easiest one let's say you have you're a developer for some kind of platform and you have the other phones that you carry around to test things to make sure that they like to see the interactions with different features in fact you almost hope they do do that sometimes actually they have references to see what does what works and what doesn't and things like that like that would be a reasonable thing i mean if he was going on to like a mac an apple stage or announcing the iphone pulling out a samsung or something that would be weird but just having it in general is kind of ridiculous that people are i feel like freaking out i feel like anybody that wants to criticize jim and they're welcome to do it but what they should do first if they don't want to be a d-bag is they should pack their laptop

they should take a long flight they should try to to be a D-bag, is they should pack up their laptop, they should take a long flight, they should try to prepare for a presentation in front of thousands and thousands of people, because it's also streamed and released on YouTube, and stand up there and give a presentation about whatever the hell Jim talked about, and then you can criticize them for using an iPad or a MacBook. I really, I mean, at the end of the day, we really have to come to the understanding that for the majority of people that are going to use Linux ever, it's just a tool. It is an ends to a means.

And many of them will never even know it is Linux. And that is the reality of our world. And it's one that we've discussed before. It's one that Linus, we've read his quotes. He thinks it's great. It's just what it is. And especially in the business space. I definitely don't care. It's one that Linus, we've read his quotes. He thinks it's great. It's just what it is.

And especially in the business space. It kind of feels like it goes a little bit back to that like the GPL enforcement questions and like the writings Greg had on that and just about you know like if we come off as this really aggressive, mean, super opinionated community then

it's really easy to see that and not all the value here. And instead of like, you know, we're all trying to push for more open source, more DRM free things, all of this. And a lot of times it's not the popular opinion. So we need to be seen as nice people and so that we can have a reasonable discussion with others and be like, look, we're not saying that you need this, but here's why it causes us a problem. Well, why can't we just have the tone, you know, a little more chill, a little more mellow. Everybody just be kind to each other, be nice, and know that everybody's in here because they got a certain

particular itch they're trying to scratch, they want to do it by writing code that's an expression for themselves, and not every single person has to be an advocate or an evangelist, and Linux will be okay. It will continue to grow, it will go on, and you'll still be able to log into your desktop.

Don't get your Ennit system in a bunch now. Especially when it's system deep because that could be a real mess. So here we are. We are hard up against our out time. You've got to go to New York. I've got to go to New York. And I feel bad because – I think that's your caravan out back.

Yeah. My ride is here. And Caleb is going to quit listening to the show. Caleb tweeted me, punting the Gen 2 challenge was funny, but now it's really irritating. Say what you do. He's got to quit the show now. And I'm sorry, Caleb. I'm sure you guys will get to it next week, though, right?

I don't know if it would be right to do it without you. Oh, no. Because I really want to find out about your Gentoo feelings. I think Chris is trying to ditch the Gentoo responsibility. Well, listen, I absolutely want to get into it because I spent all that time working on it. But the problem here is my ride to get out of here. I know. And so did Wes.

And Caleb is really, really upset. So I'll tell you what. We're definitely going to do it when I get back. That's right, we will. For sure. For sure. All right. In the meantime, follow me live on my trip.

I'm leaving in just a little bit at jupiterbroadcasting.com slash rover. That's also where I'll post videos. At Chris LAS for the Twitter. At Jupiter Signal for the network. At Wes Payne. And Beard, where would you like people to find you? Twitter.com slash Rakai LP. Rakai LP on the Twitter.

Very good. Thank you for joining us, you guys. Yeah, come back next week when it's the Beard and I. Just you two. Lots of fun. I won't be here. I hope you guys have a great show i hope the mumble room can make it back yeah and uh all that good stuff we'll see you right well they will see you i guess not me they'll see you get out of here next week Thank you. All right, so the title should probably either be about Pipewire, which would be my inclination, but also I like this as a title because it's true.

Linux journalism is in a nosedive. Yeah. Thank you, Mumble Room. You guys were great. because it's true. Linux journalism is in a nosedive. Yeah. Thank you, Mumble Room. You guys were great. Appreciate it very much. Thank you, Chris, for having us. Well, they will be back very soon. I have to go soon, so we should pick our title. Well, I just

want to point out that on next week's show and future shows, I should be on my new honking desktop with that case I just got today. Excellent. It's probably going to run gen 2 10 to 1 maniac mode engaged chugga chugga chugga chugga gen 2 all right uh yabby titles uh and also you can toss it in the discord like i have if you like for a title suggestion. I installed Discord and I don't even know what the freaking room is. Dev Pipewire is title number one right now. Chris hates us all.

Great suggestion. Popey's porn problem. That was good. Do you notice how Popey just admitted to watching porn on the show? And then he left. Oh, that's terrible. That's the best thing ever, actually. We should call it Pipe Out the Crap, Pipe in the Light.

Yeah. Oh, beard. Hey, Chris, what's the link to the Discord? Discord.me slash Jupiter Colony will give you the invite link. And if you just want to use the web app instead of the electron, it's Discord app.