LINUX Unplugged - Episode 225: Hacking the Community | LUP 225

Episode Date: November 29, 2017

Red Hat, Amazon, Facebook, Google, IBM, and others come together to push common sense GPL enforcement & a whole batch of community news.Plus we call out the Register, DRM’s dirty little secret & how Linux users can make a difference.

Wes found something that might change my life for this week's episode. Game changer. The peak of the show right here is a Raspberry Pi powered grocery bot. You take it with you. It's like a Raspberry Pi companion. It's built into a case. It has a handle. It has a mustache.

It has a camera. What a mustache. It is a great mustache, actually. Why don't more Raspberry Pi cases have mustaches? And anyways, get this thing. It's basically got like one of those little barcode scanners and a buzzer and it helps you keep track of the groceries that you need and have picked up and you just take it with you and scan the barcodes

and you can add them to your grocery list and then you can get the report on your mobile device when you're at the grocery store so when you get you like have this thing in your kitchen you pull oh i'm out of milk and you scan the barcode it adds it to your list and then the next time you're at the grocery store. So you have this thing in your kitchen, you pull, oh, I'm out of milk, and you scan the barcode, it adds it to your list, and the next time you're at the grocery store, you have all the items, right, the exact item, the specific item. Buy barcode, I mean, yeah,

right? How great is this? That seems really nice. Because take it to the next level. Imagine that, here, Beard here, right? Beard gets online deliveries all the time. I've done it a little bit myself with our local Safeway grocery store. It's great. It's so the way to go, yeah? Yeah.

And imagine now taking that to the next level where you could have this thing next to the fridge, and you scan the barcode, adds it to a list, and then when you're done, you just hit send. It sends a whole list off to the grocery delivery service, and in a couple of days, a whole new batch of grocery shows up at your door. You would totally use this. Come on. I would.

The thing I would like to see more is AI integration to suggest new groceries to me. Oh, like based on your grocery profile. Yeah. This is Linux Unplugged episode 225 for November 28th, 2017. Oh, welcome to Linux Unplugged, your weekly Linux talk show that honestly, a little meat drunk this week. My name is Chris.

My name is Wes. Hello, Wes. And Wes, as luck would have it, the beard's here too. Hello, beard. Happy half birthday to me. That's random. That's random, but it's going to be, you know what, a day of celebration here on the Unplugged program. That's right. He looks good for his half age too. He does, doesn't he? Nominally this week, we're going to talk about DRM, about sort of the historical impact I think it's going to have, and how Linux users could take a small but important step today to make a change. We'll talk about that later on in the show.

But before then, we got some news. We got some community news we're going to get into, and we've got a Gentoo challenge. How's it going over there, by the way, Wes? Are you getting the virtual machine fired up? Yes, I am. So as the show progresses, Wes will be installing Gen 2 from a Stage 3 install. That's right. Getting a base system running, and then throughout the future

weeks of the Unplugged program, each episode, another piece of the Gen 2 puzzle will be clicked into place. And we'll see how many episodes it takes to get Wes Payne to a fully functional Gen 2 system. I'm excited. So starting off right now with Episode 1. So 2.25 marks Episode 1 of the Gen 2 Challenge.

Right now, right here. We're going to need to get a jingle for this. We're going to need a Gen 2 Challenge jingle. So if you have any ideas, send us one. And we're going to, in the background, we'll be doing that as we go through the news, and we'll check in with you towards the end of the show and just see how far you got, okay? Are you good with that? You feel kumpskes? You'll check in with you towards the end of the show and just see how far you got okay are you good with that you feel kumskies you kumskies with that i'm totally kumskies all right well then before we go any further then

you know what we got to do we got to bring in that virtual lug time appropriate greetings oh oh hello oh hello everybody it is good to see you thank you thank you for being here now we got so much to talk about this week there's a a big story. It's one of these licensing stories that makes like a lot of headlines and a lot of people glaze over when it comes out. But I think it's definitely worth talking about today. Breaking news, ladies and gentlemen. This is CNN Breaking News. Press release from Red Hat over at redhat.com. Facebook and Google, IBM and Red Hat have committed to providing a clause to their GPL2 software that they ship. And this clause has some familiar elements to it. You may have heard us recently discuss the Software Conservancy's agreement they got with about 200 Linux kernel copyright holders to try to work out with companies. Yeah, right. Smooth things out before you sue them.

We'll try all other avenues before we sue. It was essentially this agreement that took some clauses from the GPL-3 and applied them in a signing statement to the GPL-2 software. Well, now Red Hat and Facebook and Googs and IBM have taken it a step further. Red Hat writes on their blog, this is going to committed to extending the GPL3 approach for licensing compliance errors to the software code that each licensed under the GPL version 2 and LGPL version 2 and version 2.1. They're calling it a common cure rights commitment. Boy, that's thick.

But what it essentially says is we'll try everything else first. We'll work with you. And Karen Sandler, she runs the Software Conservancy, she was quoted in an article from the Register that says, yeah, she's really thrilled that companies are doing this, that they're willing to take on dialogue and upping their commitment to enforcement in a way that is going to actually work long term.

And in the article from the Register, they quote Red Hat saying, Red Hat explained that legal proceedings generally produce poor results in the free software and open source community. And that litigation should always be avoided. be avoided. Why I like this story is because it's a victory for the nerds. It's a victory for the engineers. It's a victory for the people who create things and make things and write software. It's a victory for the kernel developers because this is their preference. I'm not here to tell you which approach is right i'm here to tell you that the kernel developers they seem to appear to prefer this approach and that's good enough for me good enough for me they want to work with these companies first

before you try to sue them because when you sue them they react badly they retract from their involvement in open source and they make shit worse for everybody. Yeah, right. Getting the lawyers involved doesn't make new things happen or improve anyone's experience or the software at all. It's just you're in the legal system. And I felt this way for years. We had Greg KH on the Linux Action Show and this is something that he and I personally talked about.

It wasn't necessarily in the interview but it was something that he and I talked about off air was that these discussions take years and years and years, but generally result in a internal advocacy for respecting open source licenses. And that sort of blossoms into a change of culture for a company and how they interact with open source projects. And when you sue them, what happens is you smack them in the face.

They retract from their involvement open source because all of a sudden it becomes a business risk and you shut them down say it again you poison the water you poison the water and and the thing is is i don't really i don't really have a dog in this hunt but i know that the people that are writing the software do and this is how this is the preference they have so it's really really great to see google and facebook and ibm and red hat all kind of go this way and the elephant in the room is well what about this whole software freedom law center versus the software conservancy lawsuit that's going on which a lot of people thought was sort of brought on after this big agreement i don't know i don't know but i think this is a really great move also unrelated uh fuck the register this is a

ridiculous stock image that they have used for this post oh yeah it's some attractive girl staring at her clock making some stupid face that you'd make for like Instagram. And they've slapped it on a story about GPL license laws where they're quoting Karen and they're quoting other. When you look at the Twitter preview, it looks like this is a stock. This is supposed to be an image of Karen Sandler, which it's not. And this is a weird image. It's a it's just inappropriate. It's the register recently has been really pissing me off with inaccurate coverage.

And then now this. I don't like it. I don't like it. I know they're trying to get clicks, but do a better job. Do a better job. Anyways, I think this is funny enough. Actually, looking at the Twitter feed for Karen Sandler, somebody pointed out what a bizarre stock photo the register used. Somebody pointed out what a bizarre stock photo the register used.

Because when you look at the preview on Twitter, it totally looks like that's supposed to be Karen Sandler because it's coming from the Software Freedom Conservancy Center. And they're talking about Karen getting quoted in the article. And then there's this picture of the stock girl who is wearing glasses that don't even have lenses in them and is staring at a watch that's too big for her wrist. It's just a really obnoxious photo. Anyways, it's good to see Red Hat and all those companies work together. And I bet the real story here is how that happened. How did those companies wind up in a room together to do this? And what was the thing that started the conversation?

What was the seed to get Facebook and IBM and Google? See, that's the conversation. What was the seed to get Facebook and IBM and Google? See, that's the thing. They're big people with their own agendas. Like if it was, yeah, if it's Twitter and Facebook or Microsoft and Facebook, but Google and Facebook, there's something bigger going on here. There's a bigger story here that we, the peeps, don't get to know about. And hopefully it

speaks well to uh you know their their desire to continue good relationships with the open source community both using and contributing back yeah yeah i kind of kind of been sick of the licensing stuff to be honest with you i couldn't it's important but it's like at the end of the day that's not what we get excited about we want to get excited about the software it's like exercise yeah like i know i need to do it and so i have to push through it all right fine i'll go for a fucking walk but i gotta tell you i don't really have any interest in doing it like this licensing stuff it's there needs to be a grok law of of 2018 that is concise and needs to tell us why this stuff matters. So that way I can quote them. So that way I don't have to read through all this shit and then tell you guys about it.

Because it's just like slogging. I know. First world problem, right? Speaking of first world problem, how do you finance your open source project? How do you make money doing open source? How can you do open source full time? Well, we found a guide this week. Did you find this or did I find this?

I'm not sure. I don't remember either. I think we may have both stumbled upon it. Maybe, maybe. This is a handy financial guide for open source projects, and it's up on GitHub. And in the pre-show, I was talking with Dan from Elementary OS, and I was telling Dan that one of the things that I actually really respect about Elementary OS is that they're brave enough to ask for money for their hard work. And I think initially people push back like, well, what is elementary OS doing? What are they doing? There's an Ubuntu respin, obviously misunderstanding all of the hard work that goes into it. But the people that get it want to pay, they want to support

something like this. But how do you ask for money? How do you do that in a way that isn't offensive? And in a way that doesn't seem unreasonable for something that is free by its very license? And so this is a massive guide. This is actually legitimately worth your time. And it breaks it down into 16 different areas. 16 different areas. Number one would be you can just take a donation button. And you're going to get the pros and cons about each one of these.

You can have bounties. You can have crowdfunding one time. You can have crowdfunding donation button, and you're going to get the pros and cons about each one of these. You can have bounties. You can have crowdfunding one time. You can have crowdfunding reoccurring. You can have merch, books, advertising, sponsorships. You can get hired by a company to work on a project. You can start a project while you're currently employed. You can have grants, consulting services, software as a service, freemium licenses, dual licenses, open core foundations, maybe VC. There's a lot of options.

Yeah, and it shows you examples of like all of them too. So Dan, I know you just had like five minutes with the article, but did anything jump out at you? Any warning signs? Or do you think this is maybe a solid guide to point people at? No, I've been, I've been poking through it, um, while you guys have been doing all the rest of the show and it's really comprehensive. She does a really good job going through and saying, you know, Hey, um, this is what's good about this, but this is also what's bad about going this route and gives a lot of alternatives.

Yeah. You get a sense of a lot of research. I mean, a lot of research when it's like, she must've gone out there and surveyed a lot of open source projects and seeing how they're doing. Yeah, absolutely.

But I think, you know, one of the things that is kind of glossed over, I guess, but that I would definitely recommend for anybody thinking about how to fund their open source product is to try as many as they can, you know, as long as it doesn't go against your project goals. Because she does talk about like with advertising and stuff, like maybe that conflicts with your project stances on, you know, how they feel about whatever. But just try a lot of different things and see what sticks. Dan, what do you think about this advice for an open source project is think of you're asking for contributions, not from random strangers, but from community members you've engaged with, which means you're going to have to up your community engagement. You're going to have to up your community game, but you're not asking for the drive-by donators. What you're asking for is people that have engaged with the project, that become fans, they're advocates of the project. They use it themselves. They find

importance with it. Those are really the people you want donations from because those are the ones that are going to be motivated to keep the project alive, right? Yeah. I mean, I think that's the big, you're going to get your recurring stuff from them right so you're uh merchandising or if you're on patreon or anything like that those are definitely the people that you want to look at for things like that um i can tell you though that uh our number one uh method of revenue right now is the pay what you want on our website and it's um it's a lot more than what we get from patreon really Really? More than Patreon, huh? Even though Patreon is reoccurring. Now, that must be cyclical, though.

That must be tied to release cycles because – Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, which when you do that, now you have to predict, you know, what does that money actually mean per month. Doesn't that make staffing significantly harder? There's so many hard things to predict because you don't know if, say, the elementary OS released based on 18.04 is going to be a huge hit or not. Maybe

all the attention will be on stock Ubuntu. Yeah, so in that way, you kind of have to look at what past releases did, and you can only guess based on what information you already have. So if you haven't been fundraising for a few years already, you don't really have a base to go off of, you know, it can be scary at first figuring out how much money do you even really have. You also have to, you have to sort of

sum up your worth and say, how valuable am I versus the other things that are out there? And that can be, you have to be pretty humble when you do that, don't you think? Yeah. And I think that's a huge part of your marketing as a project is actually pitching your value proposition. What do users get by supporting you? Why should they do it? Why should they do it continually if you're raising money on something like Patreon? That's one of the cons that she points out in this list is on something like Patreon, it can be unclear. Why do people want to continually give you money? What is it exactly that they're funding? Yeah. And she points out that it usually taps out. They're like, there seems to be like sort of a maximum that you're going to get there. And that's just about

as much saturation as you get. And I would say too, just been doing this now for a while, it would, and something that I could do a lot,, lot better at, and creators like Philip DeFranco are much better at it than I am, is diversify constantly. Always be looking for new avenues to try merchandise or not. And this is something I think people fuck up a lot is don't do it from the standpoint of how the hell do I milk these people for all they're worth. But think about it from the standpoint of people who get what I'm doing are my target. I want to sell to people who I'm already engaging with. And what is it that would – and this is a douchebaggy term, but this is really how you got to think about it. What would delight them?

What would get them like fired up? Like, yeah, that's a a great idea like could you do something funny with a t-shirt then that's merch that's worth selling you know if you're just going to put a basic bitch logo on there and put it over the which i've done plenty of times you know why are you bothering you know you they could go make that themselves these days if they really wanted that you know i'll offer something different there if you're going to diversify. And it involves a lot of reflection. It involves a lot of understanding of what your target audience wants and what they're generating value from. And when you understand those things, you can tend to sell well to those people.

And it's not because you're selling them. It's because you're providing something they already want. And you just have to kind of connect with where they're at and do that. And that may be bugs. It could be a bug. That could be a bug bounty program. It doesn't have to necessarily be merchandise. There's a lot of options there.

So definitely take a look at this guide because myself and, of course, Dan feels this way, but I know a lot of others do too. I want to see more people making money from open source than we've ever seen before. Wouldn't that be a thing like if by the end of 2018, it's considered a viable business few years are going to be a great opportunity for people that can self-produce and generate their own sources of income and diversify multiple sources of income are going to have the best chance going forward. And there would be a huge benefit to open source if one of the ways you could make an independent living as somebody who has some software development skills is by developing open source software. And this guide could help people figure it out because it's a bunch of really hard learned lessons over the last decade, all compiled into 16 different categories. And

it's stuff that when I read through this resonates with my personal experience and resonates with stories I've heard from developers in open source. And so it's one of these things where it's a rare opportunity to get about a decade's worth of hard-learned lessons in one solid read if you're trying to do this yourself. And my personal bias is, really, I just want to see more people making money developing open source. Well, I actually would like to see a little bit of a different approach also taken because I feel that a lot of projects start with this concept of just designing the software that they are passionate about.

Of course, that is all that open source is about. But I think there's a big difference between making a business and making what you love. You can sometimes merge the two. Sometimes you shouldn't. Sometimes you shouldn't, really, to be honest. There's a reason why i don't have a star trek podcast the whole the whole thing is when you decide to make it a business you actually have to come up with a business plan that is viable and this is actually

the problem number one for most people in my opinion when they come up with their open source projects like they start with the ideas of how can I get donations as soon as they start seeing the project getting some traction. And they're already succumbed into a place that they can't really charge well for their product. If you're a business, you need capital first when you start developing. You do an investment and you expect the return of that investment. And people don't even contemplate how much of that investment they're doing themselves is worth it. That's why they don't have a way of calculating the price that they should be charging. Yes, that's very true. I've been there myself.

They actually don't look out for how to actually start seeing, for example, if there's actually people interested, the people that are willing to put their money where their mouth is. Oftentimes, they go around and ask, would you like to see that happen? People say, yeah, I would buy that. And then it's done and people don't pay. The developer goes like, oh, I got fooled on this. Of course, people could get it for free. They would get it for free.

Bashful, you have some thoughts on sustainability and some pushback on it. And then I'll go back to you, Daredevil. Go ahead, Bashful. All I was really going to say is you look at some people, like the sustainability loops back to what you were saying before with why they're asking for donations. So that was kind of like one little point was just that maybe that's the approach to take.

Then the other point was the pushback. Like, for example, I don't know if you're familiar with what happened with the Caddy project. No, could you give me a background on that? Yeah, a little bit. So Caddy is an HTTP2 server written in Go. Mark Bates is the author. And it was open source. And he basically started building out or attempting to build out a business behind it

and the only form of sponsorship was like an http header that they just injected in there so a lot of people got super po that there was they thought it was going to be like a closed source thing they didn't like the header which in some ways i can sort of see but then they uh he just basically got raked over the coals trying to find a way to monetize and continue on with the work. And you think there's some entitlement there? Yeah, I think so. Because if you look at like people get something for free and you could even take that and look at it from the point of view of like support and,

you know, a lot of people are doing this in their spare time and they almost expect you to answer like immediately or they expect you to fix the bug immediately or add the feature set uh you know and along those lines and it's kind of like now now now whereas you know anyone may have like five different things that they're trying to do and it's not necessarily just that one project or if you look at some of the other people like even like uh like wimpy and them like who work full-time for canonical they've got certain obligations there plus you know he's got mate and all the other stuff that he's got his fingers in like he's i don't know how he does it to be honest wimpy you are a machine that's for sure yeah uh uh daredevil i wanted to let you

finish your thought though because i know you were you were kind of wrapping that up That's for sure. the developer gets paid to write code, not developer gets paid for releases or for versionings or licensing. And a lot of these models that people come up with open source is like, oh, I'm about to download and everybody chooses what they want, but I'm about to download, so I give a donation. It's equivalent of paying

for the current version or current license. And that is kind of what leads to most of the problems. So if you actually come with a value proposition of code gets written upon payment and this is what it costs to produce these code then you could either only invest in it if you effectively got the money and in that way you could support sustainably your development and it would be like any other contract stallman

has talked about this over and over the idea is to get developers to get paid to write code so that then the ownership is true. The person who paid for the code has ownership over it. So Dan, do you think as a project there is messaging here that if you just position the project and make it clear that these are our resources, this is our availability, is that the solution to entitlement, Dan, or is it deeper than that? Yeah, I absolutely think messaging is super important. I mean, you know firsthand that a few years ago we had some terrible messaging and came on your show to try to fix it because it was so bad. And, you know, had huge pushback, and it still burned us to this day.

Yeah, yeah. Just recently in a Reddit thread you and I were talking about, somebody brought it up, and it's like, come on. Yeah. Yeah. You know, just recently in a Reddit thread, you and I were talking about somebody brought it up and it's like, come on. Yeah. It's just ancient history. But definitely, you know, figuring out how to navigate around. These aren't these are not the good ways to communicate.

And these are the good ways to communicate and being able to express to people about how you want to meet their expectations and you want to provide the features and, and that it isn't that you don't care because they want to know that you care about them and that you're trying, you know, and, and to explain that, you know, this is, this is the best that we can do with the resources we have. And if we had these resources, then we would be able to do that thing and, and try to make it a negotiation. You're so right, Dan, because you guys have been a case study of that. So, I mean, that is 100% legitimate experience that you have, and I cannot disagree with that.

It's kind of funny if you think about it because I can't really think of – I'm going to give a second before I say this out loud. But I can't think of two other projects that are better at explaining why the hell you should pay for them than Elementary OS and Ubuntu Mate. I really, you know, like, so Wimpy's posts. I'll tell you what I like about Wimpy's posts for the Ubuntu Mate project on Patreon that have inspired me now for a couple of years and I still haven't figured – I still haven't gotten my shit together on how to do this for Jupyter Broadcasting. But Wimpy will say, you know, we spent $126 to this guy or whatever to develop this feature and we spent $100 and whatever with this project and we sent this much of your money to this project. with this project and we spent we sent this much of your money to this project wimpy we did you have an intentional rationale behind those posts to specifically say this is the value you're getting from your contribution was there like a is there like a like some some reflection you did

to say i need to tell people what they're getting with their contribution is he there That was such a good question. It really was. It was a great question. That's okay. That's okay. Go ahead, Eric. I know you want to jump in, so I'll jump to you. Go ahead. Yeah.

Well, I mean, I can speak to a lot of this. I work full-time for an online education company, but on the side, I own an IT consulting business. Oh, okay. education company, but on the side, I own an IT consulting business. And that consulting business recently, actually a day before yesterday, just lost our best client. Because even though I took time off from my day job, like took vacation time in the middle of a day to go and help with what they considered was an emergency emergency it ended up being something fairly simple but to them it was an emergency and so i i left my my day job to go help them out and it ended up being windows 10 home edition was their problem they they bought a computer that i didn't

recommend and they got windows 10 home instead of windows 10 pro and uh to be honest i went into i went into the situation not having having my my ducks in a row because i tried to pitch switching to linux getting away from all that um from from all the licensing with microsoft and that kind of thing and and supporting open source and you know they they basically fluffed it off as uh well you know that that linux thing that's just for nerds i've been there yep i'm really sorry that sucks you know, they basically fluffed it off as, well, you know, that Linux thing that's just for nerds. I've been there. Yep. I'm really sorry. That sucks.

You know, losing a client, too, is like the worst thing ever, especially when they don't follow your recommendations. That is the worst. Yeah. I'm sorry to hear that, Eric. Wimpy, sounds like you have your situation sorted, sir. Do you remember my question i do yes um it always helps to remember which key you've bound to push to talk i love it i love it well it's good it's good to hear you and yeah please run with it um yes uh my intention with

the those messages that we send out is to uh exactly explain to the patrons uh how the money is being spent but more importantly the value that that has to the project and oftentimes uh the way that the money is being used is to fund development that the teams that are involved right now who volunteer their time freely wouldn't have time to do if they weren't incentivized or compensated in some way in order to work on those projects. Now, do you agree with my assessment that the way to think about a patron or some other sort of reoccurring contributions to an open source project is if you reframe it as they're your client and you need to constantly remind your

client why their contribution or their patronage of you is useful. Like you're communicating to them on an ongoing basis. It's almost a sales position. It's really sort of doing sales but in a more genuine way. I don't mean to like douchebag it up a little bit, but don't you feel like it's kind of like a client relationship that you're reselling your value to? It really is. I mean, there are months when I don't get the time to post a patron as, as detailed as I would like, or as regularly as I would like. And when you get a couple of months off the back like that, you do see people, uh, reigning in their support. So

they'll reduce their contributions or they will opt out entirely. So it is very much a client management relationship in that respect for, for some people at least yeah and uh i don't know those are just sort of sort of my insights and i think uh wimpy's and dan's insights that if you want to try to if you want to try to monetize a open source project or something like that just things to consider and uh boy you know i'd love to see more people be successful i try to back as many people as i as i as i can on patron you know that's it's getting to be that point. Absolutely. But I try to because I really want to see more people be successful and want to see people do this long term.

Sounds like we have more thoughts on this, so Eric and others, let's take it up in the post show. Save it, please. Remind me because I will forget by the time we get there because right now I've got to stop and take a moment and thank Linux Academy. And to be honest with you, I'm so excited about freaking Linux Academy that I'm not going to remember what we wanted to talk about

because it's finally here. Finally, a platform to learn more about Linux that's been created by Linux enthusiasts, that's been developed by developers that really, really know their ass. Like they can build complicated systems that match courseware and distros and virtual machines, and they all bring it together

in a platform that teaches you everything around Linux to make money and to be more successful in your career. It's Linux Academy. Whether you're an experienced sysadmin or new to the world of Linux, Azure, and AWS, OpenStack, and DevOps, a sharp skill set is an absolute necessity to succeed. Meet Linux Academy, an online Linux and cloud training platform that uses self-paced video courses and hands-on labs to give you real world experience for a wide range of skills. Train for your certification, learn the latest DevOps tools, and grow your skill set to do better work. Linux Academy is not just a video library. Our scenario-based server labs and quiz system allow you to learn hands-on. We also have full-time

human instructors who answer questions and help you earn that certification or promotion at work. We add new training every week so you'll always be up to date on the latest tech. Sysadmins of every experience level use Linux Academy to stay on the bleeding edge of the Linux ecosystem. You should too. While you're laughing, the hackers are dropping malware into your system. Go to linuxacademy.com slash unplug to get a free 7-day trial and support the show. Try out their hands-on

labs, their testing for certs, their courseware, their downloadable comprehensive study guides. It's amazing, you guys. Old, young, or I should say young Chris would envy old Chris, which is present Chris. It's complicated for the Linux Academy. I mean, it's one of the things I just couldn't even imagine when I was getting started.

Linuxacademy.com slash unplugged. Oh, thank you, Linux Academy, for sponsoring the Unplugged program. So the folks over at ours decided to review Ubuntu 17.10. It's about time. review Ubuntu 17.10. It's about... Scott Gilbertson posted on November 27th, just a couple of days ago, at 4.30

in the morning, his review of Ubuntu 17.10. Now, what do you suppose that's about, 4.30 in the morning? That's really something. And I find it to be interesting to just get sort of an outside-the-bubble take on the Ubuntu 17.10 release. That's sort of what I thought was fascinating

about this sort of outside the bubble. And there's a couple of elements of this review that jumped out at me. What was his name? His name was Scott. So Scott writes in light of the gnome switch, this really seems more like a homecoming than an entirely new voyage.

More like a homecoming. Yeah, I kind of agree. It does kind of feel like more like a homecoming than an entirely new voyage more like a homecoming yeah i kind of agree it does kind of feel like more like a return to home yeah um and a return to community inspired design and building and packaging right and feature sets one of the things that when uh when dustin kirkland was going around and doing the survey and asking what people wanted on Ubuntu, the thing that really stood out to me is this feels like old Ubuntu. This feels like old early days Ubuntu is what the whole entire thing felt like that to me. So I completely agreed with Scott Staker. It's like more of a return really. He goes on to write a couple other interesting points. He goes on to write a couple other interesting points.

A recent call for community input on the new Ubuntu desktop theme seems to message a point about the new Ubuntu desktop, one that's more community-centric. And then he writes, Canonical got rid of most of its design team. So in one sense, it has no choice but to farm these things out to the community. Poby, I don't know if you wanted to,

in your personal opinion, did you want to respond to that particular line in this review? Because that's a bold statement right there. Canonical got rid of the desktop team. No more designers working on the desktop. And their only option now is to cheap it out and go to the community for a theme. What do you think of that?

Yeah, it's not the first time I've heard people say that. And people have said in the past similar kind of things about how we don't have a design team or the design team don't care. There's always some reason. There's always some ulterior motive for why we're asking the community for input. It can't possibly be that we're just asking them because we value their opinion as users and experts in the field. Like that can't possibly be the reason why we're asking. Yeah, it does seem to be like there's an assumption, right? Just an assumption.

Yeah, it does seem to be like there's an assumption, right? Just an assumption. Now, do you – would you acknowledge that it does – I think some of that comes from like this recent restructuring at Canonical where people just? So they just make their assumptions from the outside that, well, they got rid of the Unity 8 folks. They got rid of the people working on artwork. And now they just have the core team of people that we hear about. And that's it. And so they have to do this. I mean, the perspective seems reasonable to me just completely from the outside. To some degree. You know, we did downsize to some degree back in April.

And, you know, did downsize to some degree back in april and you know that was a struggle and there are people who were lost through uh all areas of the business um so some yep certainly some people were lost from design and some people lost from the desktop team and some people lost from all other parts of the company it wasn't just you know if you worked on unity eight you're out the door and that's it there were people lost from all over the place and and that was difficult for us um but the thing about unity 7 and and theming and stuff we haven't we haven't made a lot of effort in uh unity 7 changes for a number of years. Like we haven't, it's been mostly maintenance mode for some time

because our focus was on other things like the phone, for example. And we spent a lot of time cultivating a community around the phone. And now we're no longer doing that. We've refocused back on the desktop. It's not like we stopped asking the community for input. It's just that our focus was on something else. And yeah, we've refocused back on the desktop it's not like we stopped asking the community for input it's just that our focus was on something else and yeah we've refocused so his comments about you know returning home and coming back to the ubuntu of old that's not

unsurprising given that we're no longer working on things that uh you know some people thought we shouldn't have been working on in the first place and right right i think when you look at it in a wider context uh you look at people that are also on the new community site that are discussing, what do you want to see from Mir? What do you think about a Unity 7 remix of 1804? When you look at what the discussions that are taking place on the new community portal or hub, what should I call it, Poppy? Hub.

The new community hub. When you look at all of the discussions that are taking place, then the theme discussion fits in as just one of many wide ranging discussions that are now taking place. But when you look at it in, it's in just, if you look at just the theme discussion, it looks like, oh, we're, we're tossing it to the community. And when in reality, you guys are seeking input on like three or four different topics that I can think of just off the top of my head right now. And it's a change.

You're right. What it is, is it's a behavior change from, from the, from the last few years. It's an adjustment to a behavior change. Yeah. And part of the reason why we changed and rebooted the community website was

because it didn't lend itself particularly well. I mean, something I've said to other people recently is that a lot of this engagement happened over the last few years. You just didn't see it. It just wasn't particularly visible. It was buried on IRC channels. There were conversations happening in an Ubuntu desktop IRC channel on Freenode, or the conversation was happening on a mailing list somewhere. It's public, but nobody found it, and it wasn't particularly easy to engage with. Modern projects are using things like Slack, like discourse, to make it easier for members of the community to get on board

and voice their opinion and say, yeah, I'd like to help. If the way you get on board is, well, first of all, you've got to sign up to this mailman mailing list, then people are going to be like, no, screw that. I don't even use email anymore. Right. And so part of this is planned. You know, we wanted to make it easier.

The onboarding process, the whole reason why the community hub exists is to make it easier for that onboarding process the whole reason why the community hub exists is to make it easier for that onboarding process so that we can start having initiatives which are you know new design or get involved in a new flavor or what should we do about this feature or what should we do about this particular piece of software it's to make it easier for people to engage with us and people are engaging as you've said can i ask you something i'll go ahead go ahead i'd just like to add to that as well what makes contributing to the themes so sacred why is it that all of the community members that contribute translations or file um bugs or submit patches or work on the upstream code that ubuntu and many other distributions are made of why is it that that

kind of contribution is fine but suddenly asking people to work on themes is suddenly taboo and you're you've sold out you've thrown it all to the community you don't care anymore i guess i guess that because the fantasy is that canonical has like these super high-end developers that are secretly using max with adobe photoshop to create themes that we don't have? I don't know. No, I don't think it's that. I think it's that for some reason, people have it in their head that design is not a thing that people contribute for the love of wanting to contribute. You have to pay designers. That's the only way to get good design is you have to pay them. Yet software developers, people who provide patches, people who do translations, people who write documentation documentation they can all do it for free for the love of it in their spare time but designers no you have to pay them and i think it's a ludicrous assertion that these are entirely

separate different people that have to be paid i'm not saying never pay them but the the assertion that for some reason we shouldn't be able to ask the community to give us help in the areas of design in the same way that we ask people to help us translate, patch, test ISOs, and write documentation I think is bizarre. Okay. All right. That's a pretty good point. Yeah, it's just a sort of reframing of how you think about it. So, Dan, I think you and I would agree on one point. The biggest point of branding could be the theme. Like this is where Ubuntu could really kind of be. You see it and it's obviously Ubuntu.

So it's not really even it's not a theme. It's an experience, isn't it? It's like the Ubuntu experience. And it seems like owning that is pretty critical to have a desktop that's truly an Ubuntu feeling, like it's the heart of Ubuntu. Yeah, and honestly, I mean, you know, my personal stance is themes are dead. You know, it doesn't really, like, style sheets are API these days. You know, they're important for applications. And I think your style sheet and your icons are just as important as any other component of the desktop environment.

You wouldn't say, I mean, you know, when Canonical decided to stop doing Unity 8, they didn't say, okay, community, come up with a new desktop environment. You know? Right. Like, it's important work that you just don't hold a contest for. You know? There has to be a direction and a vision. And, and they said, Hey, we're going to go with, uh, you know, GNOME and then took feedback on how are we going to present GNOME. Right. And then, uh, they didn't leave that up to a vote or hold a contest or anything like that. Right. It was, well, let's take the feedback into consideration

and let's, you know, do surveys. And there, it was much more of a directed effort. And I think that's probably what people are objecting to is it kind of seems like it's like, ah, you know, do surveys. And it was much more of a directed effort. And I think that's probably what people are objecting to is it kind of seems like it's like, ah, you know, we don't care. It's just paint, you know? Yeah, but what if, and I know this is a long shot, but what if you can end up with something that's like 90% there and it's pretty damn good and you take your own internal team

and you round off that last 10% and you make it great. And then you, over the next three LTS releases, I mean I'm talking a really long-term scale here, you make it specifically the Ubuntu-branded desktop theme. But it starts with – the thing that I like about going to the community about this is, well, let's get the most modern takes on what makes the best theme. Let's get the ARC people involved. Let's get the Mocha people. Let's get everybody, people that are loving the Pop! OS stuff. Let's get everybody involved that's loving all that stuff and get the best, most modern version

of a Linux desktop theme that we can get because GTK3 can be beautiful. And so let's just see the most latest version of that. Yeah, but the problem is, like like in reality, what you get is everybody just upvotes like trendy crap that's broken, you know, and it's like nothing that somebody actually put time into.

I think, um, you know, the decision that was made to, uh, have Sam do the server icons is like a no brainer. Like not doing that would be a huge mistake to me. So what,

what I would, you know, if I were someone that had power in the ubuntu canonical realm is that i would say hey you know all this great design work that we did for unity 8 let's um rally a community around building a style sheet that lives up to that ideal and let's let's build what we all you know invested in you know but for gdk3 that's really a thing though i mean that's the thing that you got to take on and and maintain and then and then and then and then really own for years and years and years especially when you ship it in an lts you know and whereas if you start with edwardia and then you make edwardia good and usable by human beings, you're almost all the way

there. I'll say this. I'm not really on my machine at home that I use all day long and all night long on my non-work days. It's an Ubuntu LTS 16.04 Unity 7 with the ArcDark theme. And I forget the icon theme, but I'm not using the standard one. But the thing that really strikes me about the old theme that comes with Unity 7 is it's extremely glanceable. Like you can just look at the icons and you know immediately what they are. They're large. They're readable. It holds up. Unity 7's theme today holds up.

It holds up in high DPI even. It holds up. It holds up better than some current today holds up it holds up in high dpi even it holds up it holds up better than some current themes hold up surprisingly it's it feels dated but it holds up and so in some ways because they sort of they did they did own that and they really they really kind of took that under their wing you know years later it still works it still holds up it's just feeling old these days so i do follow you dan and i i I do completely agree that if you could, you wouldn't just sort of dump that investment in the Unity 8 design. You wouldn't just jettison it. You would somehow incorporate it in the future product. as having a light fork of Edwardia and then over the next, say, two or three releases,

carefully iterating it. That, to me, seems to be a, I don't know, a more sustainable approach. You know what I'm saying? Like something that it will take longer, but it would work much longer. It's something that's usable much longer. Yeah, I think the argument is that

it requires a significant investment and the the one of my favorite quotes um from a design article was you know design's not something you sprinkle on the top like a little bit of je ne sais quoi as a junkyard pissing down an alleyway you know it's just like it's something you just throw on there like ah whatever yeah i suppose so yeah it's you you got to invest in it and cultivate it just as much as you care about the actual meat of the code of the applications and i think that's the thing is people want to see that it's invested and cared about and not like an afterthought and and i know that those guys actually do really care about that

stuff i think that it just needs to be communicated that way. I suppose, Eric, you have a good point. Eric in the mumble room says, well, look, this is the definition of anti-not-invented here. Right, Eric? Right. I mean, for years, Canonical was that company that if it's not built here, then we're not using it. I mean, that's very reminiscent. Or at least that was, I think, the impression, yeah.

Right. I mean, that's – right. Yeah, exactly. That was the impression. But, I mean, how is reaching out to the community anything but being like an apple who embodies that completely? I mean, here, why don't you be a part of this thing? Why don't you help us create icon themes and, and wallpapers or whatever the case may be and, and be a part of this product, be a part of, you know, 1804. Hmm. So, um, I guess, I guess we probably really just

have to kind of leave it here. It seems to me, unless anybody else has any closing thoughts on it, it seems like we just leave it here and we just wait and see what happens but uh well good point everybody just one yeah just one extra point um i don't it's i think it's because people often are going a little bit back on the notion between code or design which things should actually get contributions is that if you pick up a pen and a little bit of paper, try to draw something, you'll probably see that you failed miserably. And it's hard for you to actually have that notion when it's about code. So people often think that they're going to get crappy design.

And so they tend to value and think that the only way is by actually acquiring talents and having the company do so. And the other point on four recommendations, when it's like getting extra feedback from the community, it has been the inconsistency that makes Canonical's voice a little bit kind of low, and in that way, community responds not with an open heart immediately. It takes a good amount of time until they actually, okay, feel more, okay, they are actually being honest here.

It's not just another move. It's not going to change in a couple of weeks type of thing. Yeah, and that could be something that changes over time too, don't you think? Don't you think that's something that will ease over time potentially? I think yes, as long as the management is done in such a way that actually fixes problems that existed before. As a developer, I had once a really bad experience when I actually spent time investing in a piece of technology

that Canonical did invest in, and then just, bang, disappeared. And, you know, that experience, if you have that over and over, you don't come back, right? Yeah, yep. And it's one of those things where you have to be resilient and you have to kind of do smooth transitions. And I think they're doing that now.

I hope they continue with that path. Well said. So I want to move us on because I still want to talk about DRM because I think that's sort of a super important topic. And there's been some major developments this week. But I do want to do just a quick bit of follow-up and go back to last week's episode if we could. And the CEO of, you guys remember we talked about Linus, the auditing tool last week? And it was Sisyfy, is that how we decided? C-I-S-O-F-Y? Sisyfy?

Yeah, sounds right. Michael is the CEO there, and he pinged me and said, hey, just a couple of extra bits of information about Linus. It just hit its 10-year birthday this month as we happened to just randomly cover it. That's super awesome, dude. And also, Linus can run as an unprivileged user. In the episode episode i decided to run it with sudo uh and but he says if you do that if you run it as an unprivileged user uh the report is just stored in slash temp and i really i really appreciate it he also said that

some of the plugins are completely free uh and they're they're indeed others that are commercial they're built by companies um he says also we advise using a cron job with daily comparers for easy detection of new findings. And he linked to a linux-audit.com article for that. If you didn't catch last week's episode, I definitely recommend it. We talked about Linus, a tool where you could audit your own system and

see what's changed, see what's going on with that. How's the Gentoo Challenge going over there? I have a whole bunch of things happening right now on the screen. I don't even know what these are. What are we seeing build right now? What is this? Right now we are updating the world set. So Wes Payne over there, Mr. Wes Payne, son of a bitch,

he's the one that, I don't know if you guys, if you've caught all of the episodes of Linux Unplugged, as we were wrapping up just a couple episodes ago, it wasn't that long ago, Wes suggested that we do a Gen 2 challenge. And so what we have done is we've created a virtual machine here in the studio that is building Gen 2 right now as we record this episode. And that's what you're looking at if you're watching the video version right now of the Unplugged program. video version right now of the unplugged program uh if you're if you're listening to the audio aka if you're the majority of the audience um just envision a lot of gcc crap going across the screen and um you've basically got it so i just wanted to give a mention for two reasons one is a

completely selfish reason and the other is because i just love talking about these events and um i can't help but i can't help but talk about them texas linux fest coming up, and they have their call for papers right now. So it's going to be in June. So you've got a little bit of time to plan for this. It's going to be at the AT&T Conference Center in Austin, Texas. And they have a whole range of topics, but they have their call for papers right now. This is their eighth year.

And they've never been. It seems like a lot of fun could somebody tell me how many how many people go to this thing how many people go to texas linux fest and uh is it um june is it worth being in austin in june like really be honest with me is it at tweet me at chris elias is it worth being in austin at j It just doesn't – it feels like it's got to be a really good event to be in Austin at that time. And then just a little PSA before we wrap up the community news segment this week. You Fedora users, to pay attention just for a moment, Fedora 25 has entered the end of life status, a.k.a. no more updates for you, in just about a week from when you hear this episode so now would be a really good time to upgrade to fedora 26 or maybe fedora 27 yeah fedora 26

should be really solid right about now and 27 is getting there and uh your upgrade should probably go pretty smooth if you have a pretty straightforward system my upgrades have gone smooth for many releases now fedora 25 will be um doa in just about two weeks so upgrade to fedora 26 or 27 now if you're a fedora user because your time is running out we need to have like an end of life theme like if we could if somebody wants to make us an end of life clip i'll play it on the to make us an end-of-life clip, I'll play it on the soundboard for distros that go end-of-life. Because I think we should just have a segment like, if you're running this version of Linux, you're no longer getting patches.

If you're running this version of Linux, you're no longer getting patches. Yeah, right? You can just follow this show and know when you need to update. There's no master list, right? So we should just put it all out there. Just let everybody know. I don't know. Then I hear from people, maniacs, like I think maybe Joe or somebody. Somebody I know. I'm not going to say it's joe resington i'm not gonna say it's probably yes

but it's probably joe are running like ubuntu 1404 or something i know i know just absolute absolute animals just animals i can't even understand it i can't even understand it bashful you had a comment about the funeral march towards Old Distro. Go ahead. I was just going to say you wanted a sound clip. Just run the funeral march. Oh, I get it. You know, like the brr, brr, brr. Bingo.

I feel like we need something unique to the show, though. You know, like some podcasts have people submitting clips all the time, soundboard stuff. For sure. I got an empty soundboard right now, and the only thing on the Linux Unplugged soundboard is the intro and outro theme and the flashback. I got the flashback, which I feel like is good, right? That's good.

But I don't have anything more. So if you want to help populate the new soundboard for 2018, you can start sending clips into the Unplugged program. Is the bell not a part of the soundboard? Is that a real bell? It depends on the show. It depends on the show it depends on the show you know people ask don't should i reveal do you guys feel like i should reveal if the bell is real or not no keep it a mystery i'm gonna keep it a mystery because i know some people uh have uh have looked at the audio waveforms to try to determine if the bell is real or not and uh i don't want to say no

i don't want to say you'll. I don't want to say. You'll have to guess yourself. You can load this up in Audacity. Load this episode up in Audacity. And you take a look at it yourself. DigitalOcean.com. Go over there to support the show, DigitalOcean.com, and use our promo code D01Plugged. One word.

That's it. One word. And you get $10 credit over at DigitalOcean.com. Wes Payne is the perfect DigitalOcean customer because every time I have a conversation with you, Wes, every single time you're like, you know, I could just do that on a droplet.

I kind of had to actually... You know, that's true. I kind of had to argue with you to just load a virtual machine on your laptop to do the Gen 2 challenge. Whoopsie. Because you're like, you know, we could just do it on a droplet, and then I could use the HTML5 console, and then I could reload one of those rigs with Gen 2. Like, you had a whole plan in, I don't know, less than 55 seconds, which ironically is probably how long it would take to spin up a droplet. You like that? I like that a lot. DigitalOcean.com. You create your account, you use the promo code D-O-Unplugged, you get a $10 credit. Now, the rig that I love, my personal favorite, three cents an hour.

I'm just letting that marinate for a second. Three cents an hour. That's like nothing. That's nothing. You can find that just walking around outside. I mean, you know, I'm not saying the burger comparison. I'm not saying the coffee comparison or the heroin or weed, whatever your habit is. I would get that. And I'm not saying if that's a soundboard bell

or a physical bell. But what I am saying is you can get a great deal if you go to digitalocean.com and you use our promo code D-O-Unplugged. They got 40 gigabit connections coming into the hypervisors. Of course, the host machines run GNU slash Linux, running KVM for the virtualizer.

And they got block storage. If you're basic and you just want something that shows up as a slash dev slash SD device, go with the block storage. That's what I do when I want to have it as my home. So when I set up a DigitalOcean droplet that I'm going to remote into and have like Ubuntu Mate,

I use block storage for my slash home. Now if I have a rig that I'm using for like web storage or additional files or sharing with co-hosts, that's where I use Spaces or object storage with DigitalOcean. They have an API, so when the machines during – for our production, I need to spin them up or shut them down. I do it all through the API. I don't go to the website. I love it.

And if you're in a project, they have – if you're, like, maybe, like, I don't know, just randomly going to put this out there, just a crazy idea. If you're in an open source project, you're working with some people they got team accounts team accounts they got team accounts you can easily manage your cloud with your team by inviting others team accounts digitalocean.com use our promo code do unplugged and take advantage of a ten dollar credit and enjoy spaces i wonder are they still offering that oh shoot they're still offering oh shoot our promo code DOUNPLUGGED and take advantage of a $10 credit and enjoy Spaces. I wonder, are they still offering that? Oh, shoot. They're still offering.

Oh, shoot. Oh. So here's what you can do. You go to digitalocean.com, you create your account, use our promo code DOUNPLUGGED, you get the $10 credit, and then you go sign up for a two-month trial of Spaces for free. It's good stuff. It really is good stuff. You know, the thing about DigitalOcean

that strikes me, and maybe they should make this like their slogan or something, but it's easy enough for development, right? All right. Like, you can spin it up like you said,

API, super simple dashboard. Right, seconds. You don't have to think about it. It's not difficult. Like serious CPU and memory and bandwidth, seconds. Yeah. It's crazy.

But it's stable enough for production. Like, when you're ready to go full bore, putting it out there for the world, boom, no problem. Oh, boom, no problem. DigitalOcean.com Use our promo code

DOUnplugged and Godspeed. Go create some infrastructure. You know, I had a good comparison. That costs less per hour than long distance used to cost per minute. Wow. And also super solid old man reference. Yeah.

Nice. Digital ocean.com promo code D O unplugged. So I used to be, um, one of these, uh, one of these guys who was, uh,

not so, uh, not so concerned about the DRM. You just wanted your media. Then I went and watched a talk by this cory doctorow guy this son of a bitch totally changed my entire position how to speak it happened randomly too and i have a uh i have a uh i have a vlog about it not to be that guy but i have a vlog about it where i went there and i i saw the talk and i went well shit now i now i completely changed the way i feel about this so i I want to frame our discussion here with what hit me and what I walked away with. And just I think it helps us think about this DRM problem.

a lot of inventions throughout humanity that are really there because they were able to stand on the shoulders of giants we even have a saying for it standing on the shoulders of giants and if you look at open source i mean that's what these open source all of our open source desktops are all standing on top of the frameworks and libraries and kernels and stacks that everybody else has built. Everything is standing on the shoulders of giants that we rely upon. If you look at the internet, it's the same fucking thing. It's standing on the shoulders of giants.

And DRM locks it up. DRM locks up knowledge. It locks up intellectual property. It makes it ephemeral. It makes it something that's only available in the present and something that is inaccessible to future generations of humanity. It locks up knowledge. It is the antithesis of the open internet, of open standards, of open source, of sharing knowledge. It's the antithesis of what the internet has brought us, this fundamental communications platform that humanity can use to educate themselves and grow. DRM is the opposite of all of that.

And the EFF has been fighting against DRM and the laws behind it for a decade and a half. And things are not going well. So Cory Doctro, who I think is the premier thinker on this topic, who has, he holds talks that will change the way you think about this, and he writes posts on the EFF's DeepLinks blog that will really make you think. And the headline is DRM's Dead Canary, how we just lost the web and what we learned from it and what we have to do next or what we need to do next. And the thing about DRM is it's not about copyright protection.

In fact, that's total 100% bullshit. That's used car salesman bullshit. bullshit. That's used car salesman bullshit. What everybody would, and this is Corey's words, everybody on the inside of the industry secretly knows that DRM technology is completely irrelevant.

The technology is irrelevant. It's fundamentally flawed. And I'll get into why. But it is fundamentally flawed. It is impossible to keep DRM safe. But DRM law is everything, and this is not a U.S.-specific thing.

The reason companies want DRM has nothing to do with copyright, nothing to do with copyright. Nothing to do with copyright at all. So let's look at Netflix, because it's just an easy example. But there's so many other things beyond Netflix. DRM has so many other implications besides online media. But it is the one that we think of, and it's the easiest one to relate to. So let's go with Netflix. They send you an online streaming movie that we think of, and it's the easiest one to relate to. So let's go with Netflix. They send you an online streaming movie

that's been scrambled, and they want to be sure that you can watch it, and that you can even maybe save it to your hard drive and play it back later. But they want to make sure it's protected, so they need to give you a way to view the movie at some point. That means they have to unscramble the movie for you.

And there's only one way to unscramble a file that's been completely encrypted. You have to use a decryption key. So Netflix has to also give you the unscrambling key. But if you have a key, you can't just unscramble the Netflix movies and save them to your hard drive. So how can Netflix give you a key but control how you use it? Netflix has to hide the key somewhere on your computer. Like in a browser extension.

Like an encrypted browser media extension. Hiding something really good, hiding something well, is hard. Hiding something well in a place of equipment that you give to your adversary to take away with them and do anything they want to it offline is impossible any tiny flaw in that fragile in that in that fragile wrapping around these keys any tiny flaw that you can exploit and they're free. And once that flaw has been exposed, anyone can write an app

or browser plugin that has a save button that can just exploit it immediately. And of course they've seen this over and over again. We all know this. With all kinds of different schemes, yeah. And Corey's writing this in a way that maybe people aren't familiar with the situation. He does a really good job. But yeah, it's super good. Once the flaw is exposed,

anybody can get access to it. And this is a fact. The companies know this. They can spend millions of dollars developing DRM. And it gets broken in days by teenagers or hobbyists with equipment. And it's not because DRM makers are stupid. They can have brilliant people making DRM. It's because the idea is stupid.

Trying to store a decryption key on a system that your adversary controls is dumb as shit. It's the dumbest thing you can do in security. Think about that for a second. Trying to store the key to your system on a hacker's computer, that's the

stupidest thing you could do. And that's what DRM is trying to do. So this is where the law comes in. Uncle Sam's law comes in. But the best thing is, it goes way beyond Uncle Sam. It all comes back to your old buddy, your favorite,

the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. In 1998, Congress passed that son of a bitch, and Section 1201 provides for felony liability for anyone commercially engaged in bypassing a DRM system. And get this, if you're commercially doing it, you know, like some of these Cody box manufacturers? Five years in prison, $500,000 fine for your first offense. How many congresspeople do you think had actually used the internet when this law was enacted? $500,000 fine for your first offense. How many congresspeople do you think had actually used the internet when this law was enacted? I know, right? 98?

Even non-commercial bypass of DRM is subject to liability. And it also makes just even talking about DRM exploits legally risky. And yet use of Section 1201 of the DMCA to threaten security researchers who discover flaws is widely used too. And the beautiful thing is, is thanks to U.S. trade representatives, I mean, you know, hoorah, everybody. They've convinced other countries around the world to adopt a version of this rule as part of our trade policies. So you want to do trade with us? You got to protect intellectual property. We don't even need some of these huge like TPPs. We just, you want to do trade with us, you got to protect intellectual property. We don't even need some of these huge like TPPs.

We just, you want to work with us, you got to respect it. This is where the W3C comes in. These sons of bitches over the W3C have really sunk us all. And this is where I think Linux users may be able to eventually, it's not just Linux users, actually. It's any platform users, but I think it has to start with Linux users. Could maybe change the tide, move the dial, whatever stupid little saying you want to give it, but the W3C and the implementation of EME, encrypted media extensions,

is really what enabled all of this. It was sort of the final straw it was the it was the what is it was a straw that you know whatever the fuck in 2013 netflix and a few other media companies convinced w3c to start work on a drm system for the web this drm system encrypted media extensions eme represented a sharp departure from the w3s normal business practices. First, the EME would not be a complete standard. That's a huge deviation. The organization

would specify an API through which publishers, i.e. businesses, large corporations, and browser vendors, Google, Apple, Microsoft, and Mozilla, would make DRM work. and browser vendors, Google, Apple, Microsoft, and Mozilla, would make DRM work.

I want you to think about that for a second, because that means you have to be on the approved list. You have to be Google. You have to be Apple. You have to be Microsoft to make this work. The actual content encryption module, the CDM, wouldn't be defined by the standard. That means that EME was a standard name only.

If you started a browser company and followed all of the W3's recommendations, you still wouldn't be able to play back a Netflix video. That's the killer.

If you followed all of the W3 standards today, you wouldn't be able to play the video. That's not a fucking standard. It's not an open web or anything like it't be able to play the video that's not a fucking standard it's not an open web that's not a standard you have to get Netflix's permission

to play back that video regardless of what that's not a standard and that is a oh man what it basically means is you are enshrining the current browser monopolies. Because you can't now create a competitor to Chrome or Firefox.

Yeah, absolutely. And play back encrypted media extensions. It also twists things a little bit. It's not like you and Netflix establishing a trust relationship. It's them and these companies you happen to use as the middleman. Right. Right, my middlemans. Yeah, you're right. That is also really creepy. And a web which every publisher gets to pick and choose which browsers you can visit their sites

is very different from the historical web. I think we should... Yeah. Historical, the traditional web. The old days. Technologies that have stood in the way of this permissionless interoperability, for instance, patent encumbered video, have been seen as impediments in the way of this permissionless interoperability, for instance, patent-encumbered video, have been seen as impediments to the idea of open web, not

standardization. Look at Flash. Steve Jobs' thoughts on Flash's open letter, iOS's refusal to implement Flash, the really limp attempts to implement Flash on Android that never went anywhere. Flash died not because we don't like it, but because of mobile.

Because mobile wouldn't do Flash. That's why Flash dies. It's dying, right? And now it's essentially gone. It's because mobile refused to implement it because it wasn't a standard. And now, thanks to mobile, projects like YouTube DL allow me to download video from over 200 websites because they're all trying to be mobile compatible and they got to serve this shit up as an H.264 file. And this is the opposite of all of that. This is actually the this is like enshrining flash forever. This is what does not flash this time.

This time it's encrypted media extensions, which each manufacturer, Netflix, Hulu, they all get to brew their own now. This is the opposite of what the W3C used to be about. This is the opposite of what we used to expect from an open web. When the W3C starts making technologies that only work when they're blessed by a handful of entertainment companies,

they're putting their thumbs, they're putting their fists on the scale in favor of ensuring that the current browser giants get the majority and enjoy a permanent regime. How many times have you heard somebody say, well, I use Chrome because it works with Netflix before Firefox could? Yep.

You know, this has a lot of parallels with the whole net neutrality thing that's going on now, too. That's interesting. You're right. It kind of does, doesn't it? Yeah, it kind of does. Only this is worse because this is locking up intellectual content and creative things that humanity has created and wrapping them up in a DRM that is only accessible once a certain vendor has blessed it. And it's cute for modern day companies that want to make a great profit and impress their

shareholders. But what about 45 years from now? What about 65 years from now when we want to look back at the classics? Well, what if all that shit's wrapped up in DRM? How does that impact humanity? And I hadn't thought about this. There seems to be an unavoidable harsh reality to me. The W3C wouldn't be doing this if it wasn't for WebKit and Chrome's dominance. If Mozilla Firefox was the predominant browser, this is my personal opinion, but if they were the predominant browser, if they had a 70% market share right now, would we be getting this W3DRM encrypted media extension standard rammed down our throats?

Or would they have to do something that was open to the general web? Something tells me things would be a lot different. We're only in this position right now. We're only getting screwed. And it's not like we're getting a little screwed. We're only in this position right now. We're only getting screwed. And it's not like we're getting a little screwed. It's like humanity. It's like Disney on a whole new scale. It's Disney for all of the content.

It's Disney's copyright imperialistic behaviors for all intellectual property. For as long as the DRM technology is possibly valid and these companies are around to ping a request, this DRM technology is possibly valid and these companies are around to ping a request, this DRM is going to work and it's going to screw over people for years and years and years. And I don't feel like this would be possible if Firefox had 70% of the market share. Now, I say this completely understanding that Firefox supports encrypted media extensions

and I understand that they are, but I feel like they had no option. They didn't. They really didn't. So when you think what can we do, well part of me feels like what we could do is we could all switch to the new Firefox. It's pretty fucking great.

Firefox Quantum 57, I've been running it since it came out. It is faster than Chrome. It just has less load on my system. Like I can load up Firefox and have it load a whole bunch of tabs in the background, and it doesn't feel like my system is doing anything. Like it just feels like, I don't know, like I look at my cores, you know, because I always have like the little system stats up in the bar,

and I'm like my cores are just sitting there like at nothing, at nothing. Meanwhile, I'm blasting through Firefox pages like a maniac and all my tabs are loading up. Like when I do that, when I got like 16 tabs, 15, 10 tabs on Chrome that I close and then it reloads, like it might, all my CPUs are pegged for a while. And I'm like, Oh, awesome. Look at Chrome, man. Look at that. It's multi-process, multi-core. It's so awesome. Really browsing now. Yeah. But now when I launched Firefox, it does the same damn thing,

and it uses just a total, total, total, like 70% less of the CPU. I think it's getting pretty damn competitive. And you look at, like, they're so serious about some of the technologies that they're investing in that, like, Rust is an ends to a means. Rust, the programming language, is an ends to a means to what they're trying to accomplish. And Rust itself is a technological miracle. So maybe now is the time as Linux users, we make the hard cut. We start using Firefox and we start advocating Firefox like we advocate the Linux desktop. And I think this is the key piece. If we can advocate the

use of Firefox, like we were able to advocate the use of the Linux desktop, maybe over time we could start retaking a little bit of that market share. And you were so inspired, Wes, by the new release that you ended up putting that shit on your phone. I did. It's true. You maniac. Are you going to set it as the default browser? Right now I'm picking, but I think I will. I think I will.

I've been kind of fiddling between them. Really? I might try it. Really? I will. I think I will. I've been kind of fiddling with them. Really? I might try it. Really? Yeah. You get the sync going, you know, it's a good time. Mr. Daredevil, you want to wrap us up on this topic before we move on? Yeah.

So I actually think Firefox is a little bit in just as bad position as Chrome and as Google in here, actually. They were just as much as pushing for DRM. The only big difference is Google can decide to do whatever they want with Chrome, and we could potentially attempt to override whatever is being done in Firefox because of its more open dynamics, we should be able at least to,

by just injecting contributors over and over, take actually more ownership of the code and actually get that to a point that we have to say now all those cases are difficult and this started way before we were talking about drm it started when we started talking about awesome js yeah the web assembly because if web assembly starts being okay and people were mostly oh because of the performancesembly starts being okay and people were mostly, oh, because of the performance was good, it meant that people were willing to compromise with the ability of the JavaScript code that runs in their browser in exchange of speed. That's actually when the

problem started. Not so much DRM. DRM is just a consequence of that, I think, and us actually wanting to use those services. And just as a final point is, well, if it comes down to have a way to the browser work out a sandbox that is isolated, that does run these DRM for this company and that other company, that we can make sure that it's only that one, at least this should give us the option of, okay, I want to access this service. I already compromised to this service. Now I'm actually allowing them to execute this

code, but at least it's isolated in that context. That could be an implementation that would be more okay with than maybe what's actually been happening now where it uses more of the holistic system because it requires that for the rendering and everything.

Yes, it sounds like you're advocating for something more, you know, trying to put the user back in control rather than the system where we're left being, you know... Absolutely. A hard-like system is what I would really love to see, but, you know, that day is never coming at least.

So far, I have to just resign to cubes. That's basically verifying myself. I feel like Mozilla didn't really have much of an option in implementing this stuff either, because if they didn't, then they're not providing what their users want, and then they're, by consequence, going to lose market share. Yeah, no, I think you're right about that.

And I think, Chris, you were spot on just with the dominance of Chrome and WebKit and just like how used are we to all the proprietary stuff Chrome bundles in for us and we just use it and it's like, it's useful. Oh yeah, I can cast to my TV, all these things, but it just really hits home that these are things that are not open or are not part of the open web.

Well, and what I feel like is if there's anybody that can swallow rough edges or deal with inadequacies, which really isn't even fair to prescribe to Firefox. But if there's anybody that can, it's Linux users who have come up through the bad years of the Linux desktop. And we're kind of like, I know I have. I will just speak for myself. But I've spent the last couple of years just sort of kicking back, my hands behind my head, leaning back in my seat going, finally, it's here. I've got the same proprietary crappy application that everybody else has. No compromises.

I can do everything everybody else can. Finally, after all these years of the Linux desktop advocacy and fighting for it, I am on application parity. And that's what Chrome gave me. Chrome gave me application parity with all the other mother effers out there who have had something I haven't had for all these years. But the reality is it's like Walmart. Walmart can be convenient as hell here in the States, but the reality is you're killing other businesses by using Walmart.

You know what I mean? Yeah. And it's time to start shopping with the independent mom-and-pop shops. And I feel like we as Linux users are more equipped to do than just about any other type of computer user. That's my personal opinion. I feel like if we could give the market share to Firefox, just even just another 10% and build and advocate,

you know, you go home on the holidays, maybe switch people back to Firefox. Yeah, absolutely. Is that crazy? And I've seen a number of relatives too running older Firefox versions that haven't updated. So that's also a good time to just like go get them on the new hotness. And also Firefox seems to be making moves to like double down on privacy concerns.

There is more things coming to Firefox in future versions that are going to be pretty good. You know, like isolating out like tracking to like each site gets their own silo of information and things like that that I think are going to be compelling, not in their implementation details, but in their overall approach. They're going to kind of take the iPhone approach and we don't need to use the cloud services. We just want to sell the individual product and protect your data. And I think that sales pitch

could really sell for the web browser. Mozilla has a unique relationship with the web and what their motivations are as a result, especially compared to, you know, someone like Google, who obviously needs the web, but has other motives in mind. Mozenrat says that's all well and good until Walmart goes and purchases all the small mom and pop shops. Damn it, Mozenrat. Fair enough. Shut up. Damn it. All right. Well, before we get into the Gen 2 challenge for the week, let's take a moment and thank Ting. Talk about voting with your wallet.

This is a better way to do mobile. In fact, Ting recently posted on their blog a super concise description of Ting. Ting is a no-contract carrier that offers pay-for-what-you-use rates as opposed to requiring customers to select a plan. In this way, mobile isn't a high fixed cost. A Ting customer's bill can vary with how much they use each month. As a result, the average bill on Ting is $23 per month. And you can get started with a $25 promo code if you go to linux.ting.com.

And I couldn't say it better than myself. You know, I've tried to. In fact, it's so simple to explain that it almost feels like you have to unexplain the way the other competitors do it. It's just a smarter way to do mobile. You pay for what you use. It has nationwide coverage. They have a CDMA and a GSM network, and you can probably guess the towers that those networks are. So you just pick the one that works best in your area. They got a control panel that lets you turn stuff on and off as you need it. They can get a SIM for like nine bucks. It's even available on Amazon Prime. I mean, it's just awesome. Linux.ting.com. It really is a better way to do mobile. Whether you want to have a security device, my buddy Chase from Unfilter, he has some Ting mobile devices, SIM cards in his security cameras.

And, you know, they send him like, I don't know, like four pictures a week. Well, why would you pay for like 20 gigs of data? That's insane. When you're maybe using eight megabytes a week, right? And that's the perfect, you can get that SIM card and you can put it in an Internet of Things device. You could put it in a phone. Oh, it's perfect.

You could put it in your daily driver. The use cases are just all over the place because there's no contracts. There's no early termination fees. So if it doesn't work for you, just turn it off. It's $6 a month for the line. And then you can manage all the different features

through their dashboard. I think it's perfect for people who really you know just where that expense is not you know where it's somewhat trivial and you just need to get stuff done it's just the perfect backup internet connection your main thing goes out you still need to go get those files and do stuff boom ting six dollars a month if you don't use it that's all you pay when i was doing just 100 it contracting i had it ting wasn't a thing then? Yep. The dark days.

I remember this. I had a plan. I almost won't even admit this, but you have to understand I was billing like $120 an hour. So understand that. I had a plan that was $120 a month that sat in my drawer just for when I was traveling or when my internet connection went down or for when I was traveling or when my internet connection went down or for when I was at another client that had like crazy firewall rules or I needed to do like external testing that I just kept in my laptop bag all the time it was always powered on and it was

probably I mean I probably used no more than one gig a month on that thing wow I would do wow I would do it so different now. I got three lines now on Ting. Linux.ting.com. Go there, learn more, save $25 off a device or off your first month by going to linux.ting.com. Thank you to Ting for sponsoring

the Unplugged program. So, Mr. Payne over there has been installing Gentoo throughout the show. how's it going so far west how do you we're still compiling so i'm checking in right now and what are you building at this moment uh same same position we were from last time i'm sorry what yeah that's right i'm sorry what that's right so you're saying i literally have nothing new to talk about that's true yeah we're just uh we're updating the thing Wes, is I planned this whole segment.

This whole segment. Well, it's gone well. So we've got all of our file systems formatted, right? What did you do? Did you go extend it for? XFS. Oh, really? Atta boy.

Why not? I mean, I'm not trying to slub it here. No, XFS is my thing. I really think that's the way to go. Good job. Okay. So you went XFS. Did you do like a home partition?

How did you? Yeah, I would just keep it pretty simple here. So everything's just. So you went XFS. Did you do like a home partition? No, I was just keeping it pretty simple here. So everything's just one partition? Just one partition. Then you have a swap? I would never run a real system that way. Do you have a separate boot? No, not yet. Really? We might add that on there. And you have a swap? No, no swap either. I didn't give it that

much brain. I wonder if you could do a swap file instead. I'll probably add a swap file, yeah. Yeah. Hmm. So what do you think, Beard? Is this sort of unimpressive? I have an important forward-looking question that is going to decide how long this process is going to take.

Desktop environment? Yeah. Yeah, I think we should talk about that. That's a good question. I chose not to do systemd as the init system, so openrc is where we're going with this. I figured if we were doing the Gen 2 challenge, but just regular C, userland, all that stuff. Fair enough, fair enough.

So after this, we're going to get our use flags configured, everything there, compile the kernel, and configure the rest of the system. I have a suggestion. Well, I don't even know if I want to say this out loud. I feel like we should have talked about this off air, but I have a suggestion for the desktop.

What do you think about the latest Enlightenment? Oh. Yeah. And what about Wayland and the latest Enlightenment? Do you want to try it? That might be interesting. Is this stupid? Here's the thing.

We have enough time. So people that are Gen 2 users could let us know. Is this completely dumb? Should we go in latest Enlightenment and the latest Wayland and just roll with that? It might be fun. Check it out. That would be great. That would be great.

But I think we need the feedback because I don't want to do something that's almost guaranteed to fail, especially the thing is in a VM. What is the VM environment again? A virtual box. So that is an important factor here. We got to remember the fact that we're trying to do this in virtual box. Right. And I don't want the virtual box. That is an important factor here. We've got to remember the fact that we're trying to do this in virtual box. I don't want the virtual box video driver to... I suppose if we...

There's a lot of compiling. If we get it compiled, I could then boot into it from my physical machine for actually running the desktop. That might be an option. Did you do a VMDK? What did you do for the disk? It's just a raw VHD. Oh, so you would like grub that up?

Yeah. Grub that up. I like that. I'm going to use that term. So, okay. So you would grub that up, boot into that, and then we could VLC RTMP stream your whole desktop to the OBS machine.

Yeah, we could do that. Yeah. I don't see why not. If we could get enlightenment working, then we could do that. Yeah. I don't see why not. If we could get Enlightenment working, then we could do Enlightenment with full 3D acceleration on the stream. That would be pretty cool. Oh, that would be beautiful. Okay.

That kind of seems like- That seems like the goal to aim for. That kind of seems like the way we should go. So where do you want to go with this? What are you building specifically right now again? I was updating the world set. Okay. When you're done, should this be bootable?

No, not yet. So we're not even going to get bootable in this episode. No, we're not bootable. Okay. Come on, Chris. These things take time. This isn't just a story we're following. It's a saga, Chris.

So this is why people go with these gen 2 uh i was just looking at this um this this branch of different gen 2 systems these these these remixes of gen 2 i think this is why people do this i i i can't believe i used to do this per server back in the day this is mind-numbing to think about this. I mean, I had, I must have had 35 Gentoo servers back in the day, maybe 40 servers. And I used to do this on each one of them? That's crazy.

Well, the thing is, you do them all in parallel, so it only takes the time of one. Yeah, and I definitely use, I use the hell out of DiskCC. DiskCC allowed me to distribute the compiling across multiple systems. And we are limiting this to one system as we build this. So I guess that's a disclaimer.

That's true. Yeah. I mean, if you want the classic, long, forever compiling Gentoo experience. Not doing Plasma, dude. Yeah. No, I'm not doing it. I knew where you were going. That will take months.

I knew where you were going, and we're not doing that. I think Enlightenment or what else, Wes? What would be your Enlightenment backup? XFCE? Openbox? Nice and light. LXDE? Yeah, that might be fun. LXQT. I was actually thinking LXQT.

Mumbler, do you have any suggestions of super minimal desktops to build on Gen 2? i3. i3 would be a good one yeah yeah i i like i3 or sway if we're talking about doing wayland what's uh what about lumina yes interesting i think we should i think i think we have okay we need a poll it needs to be either it needs to either be enlightenment or lumina i. I thought Sway would be interesting, although we could talk about Sway at any time. Well, okay.

I'm okay with three. I'm actually pretty open to a three-way if you want to do a three-way. Yeah, we could always do multi-desktop configuration. Well, no, no. I mean we could do a three-way vote and the audience could decide. And whatever they pick, let's do that. So I think we should – I'm going to embed a straw poll in the show notes for this week's episode.

And we probably won't get a lot of votes because we're way into the episode. But I feel like I'll also drop it in the chat room for the live stream. But I feel like we'll do three options. So it's Enlightenment, Sway, and Lumina.

Yeah. The only thing I... The only one I was... The only thing I... Do we want to... Instead of... Well, no. I feel like Sway we should give a serious consideration.

But we could also talk about it in the future. Yeah. I'm trying to think about LXQ. All right. So let's do Alignment, Lumina, and Sway. And we'll do a dedicated thing to LXQ in the future. That's the way to do it. I think that's the way to do LXQ.

All right. So we'll put a link in or I'll embed it in the show notes. Okay. You go to jupiterbroadcasting.com, look for episode 225 of the Unplugged program, and then vote on which one you want us to go with. And Wes will try to build that, I guess, maybe next episode? Maybe? Yeah, maybe. Do you want to just leave this build going?

Yeah, I think I will. Okay. I'm composing the straw poll right now. It'll be in the show notes. And if you're going to stick around for the post show, I'll let you guys vote that are listening live. But I think that's probably where we should leave it right now. I'm proud of you. You're going.

I'm watching it right now. You're building away. How did you do this? Is this a screen session or what am I looking at here? or should leave it right now. I'm proud of you. You're going. I'm watching it right now. You're building away. I'm really, how did you do this? Is this a screen session or what am I looking at here? Just a, I logged you into the machine

with Tmux. So you're watching it too over there? Yep. Cool. That's right I am. Nice. And then we're taking that and we're capturing that

from an SSH session and putting that up on the live capture. We'll have some better methods in the future. This was just last ditch. Yeah. Well we're actually, it's actually kind of fun for us internally. We'll have some better methods in the future. This was just last day. Well, we're actually,

it's actually kind of fun for us internally. We're like coming up with different ways we could capture your Gentoo build over there because it's like, there's no X session. So there's like, not a lot of things we can work with to remotely capture that and put it on a video capture. What was that like terminal sharing thing?

Ascii Cinema or Bayobu or screen or T-Max or teleconsole. Yeah. What was the first one, Popey? Ask a cinema. Ask cinema. Right, right,

right, right, right. So that's for recording, not for streaming. Yeah. It doesn't seem to have a live stream. Our thinking was we would kind of play with a couple of different options on the pre-show next week and kind of dial in the one that works the best and then just sort of use that.

So if you want to join us live next week, go to jupyterbroadcasting.com slash calendar for that because that's probably what we'll be spending the live stream doing is trying to figure out a stream. I like barely bootstrap Gen 2 system to a live stream. Yeah, I know, right? To system. To a live stream. Yeah, I know, right? But in the meantime, go to linuxunplugged.reddit.com to give us your feedback, your thoughts, and all of that. We appreciate that.

And your ideas on the Gen 2 Challenge. And please, please, please go to the show notes and vote on the desktop environment that Wes should deploy. We need your votes. And if you want a little more Wes Payne, you want a little more beard, you want a little me, you know, just a little me, go check out the most recent user error. Shouldn't disappoint. If you want a little more Popey, you want a little more Wimpy, check them out at the Ubuntu podcast, always delivering a solid performance. And last but not least, check out the whole damn network over at Jupiter Signal on the Twitters.

Yeah, I said Twitters. Deal with it, people. And we'll see you next week. Get the hell out of here. Holy crap. Get out of here. Get it out of here. Well, what do we call this one? What do you call this thing? What do you call it? JBtitles.com, go there and vote.

And if you're in any of the chat rooms, Discord or IRC, please bang suggest. But Eric, didn't you have, you had something we wanted to add to the post show, didn't you? Eric? Did I mute you? No, you're not muted. No, it's not my fault this time. That's okay, dude. I'm just going to give you your spotlight on a large Linux podcast and you just

go ahead and totally AFK. It's cool. Jamie Tadless, I call him. We did just keep on talking. All right, so I need to finish up this poll. So what should Wes install, right? Don't you think that's the way to go? What should Wes install? What were our options again?

I'm sorry. From architect, you should add DWM to that list. Fuck you, Wes. Enlightenment, Sway, and... Yes, Sway. attack you should add dwm to that list fuck you enlightenment sway and um yes sway sway no plasma is not a fucking that looks cute no we're gonna do that separate no yeah separate although i guess let them just no no separate no separate separate um there was there was a third one bst one luminous yeah oh yeah yes yeah what is it calledina. Oh shit, I just hit reload and I lied. What?

Desktop. This is like Groundhog Day. Should Wes... I'm just going to say, should Wes build? Because that's really what you're doing, right? Yeah, you go. No, not... Enlightenment?

I hate it. Sway. Sway, okay. And Lumina. Is that a Lumina? Yeah okay. Illumina. Is it Illumina? Yeah, it's Illumina. Why do I feel like it's not Illumina? I don't feel like it's Illumina.

No A at the beginning. Just Illumina. Illumina. Illumina. Illumina. No, no A at the start. Just Illumina. Hmm.

Okay, what do I search for to get that? Because I'm doing Illumina. Oh, oh, I see. No, I'm not doing an A. Okay, what do I search for to get that? Because I'm doing a Lumina. Oh, oh, I see. No, I'm not doing an A. I'm doing an I. That's what I'm doing. Yeah, so Lumina. Oh, I really fucking hate that.

I really don't like that at all. Okay, so it's a Lumina desktop environment. That would be a good build, though. That would be a pretty quick build, right? So that's pretty good. Okay, so Lumina desktop environment is That would be a good build, though. That would be a pretty quick build, right? So that's pretty good. Okay, so Lumina desktop environment is the appropriate name. I think we should use the full names.

And we should be specific. Which version, Discord, IRC, can you help me? Which version of Enlightenment specifically supports Wayland? Because it has to be that one. We could have also done Mate. But there... No, I'm talking about Wayland here. Oh, yeah.

Is Mate... The newest version should all support Wayland. 22, 21 should. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Drive by right there. You got whip-breast. No, it doesn't.

I love it. I don't know why, but something, Wimpy, you're so polite. You know what? You obviously, you know what? I just love it. No, no. No, it doesn't. Good for you.

Well, okay. So if we're deuce doing whaling, we shouldn't put element... I guess we got elementary OS on the mind. I have been thinking about... I have been thinking about instead of going all in on... Dan's evil mission is complete. Dan showing up here every single week has been making me think like, well, fuck, maybe I should just...

If I'm going to go LTS, maybe I should just go elementary OS because my son's running that already and it's working great for him. It's been working great for him for like two and a half years. So, yeah. Damn it. I blame Dan the rabbit. Okay. So elementary OS is not what I'm thinking of.

I'm thinking of – what is it? Lumina. Lumina. Lumina. All right. I don't know why, though. I get those two confused. So we got Lumina Desktop, Enlightenment, and –

Sway. Sway. Those seem pretty good.