LINUX Unplugged - Episode 231: Most Expensive Linux Distro Ever | LUP 231

Episode Date: January 10, 2018

We slay the Gentoo challenge monster & give you our first take of the most expensive Linux distro we’ve ever tried. What does nearly $100 of Linux get you? We find out!Plus tons of community news, the perfect Linux workstation coming soon & more!

Who says you can't have fun in your terminal? Wes found SSH Tron. Multiplayer Tron in your terminal. That's awesome. You just SSH to sshtron.zacklotta.com. We'll have a link in the show notes. And you can play multiplayer Tron in your terminal window. I love it, Wes.

Good find. SSH Tron for the win. That's it right there. You didn't even know it was missing from your life, but it was. Show's over. We're done. Yeah, we're just going to be busy playing this, so entertain yourselves. This is Linux Unplugged, episode weekly Linux talk show that's ready to kill the Gen 2 challenge in its face.

My name is Chris. My name is Wes. This should be it right here. This should be the final Gen 2 challenge episode. But we'll have to wait and see because first we have to get through a packed show. Yes, my friends, 2018 is starting off with a bang. We'll give you a snapshot on where Linux is specifically with Meltdown and Spectre. Then we'll get into a couple of new releases that might be some of the best open source software

you're not using. It's great. Then I say the perfect Linux workstation is Nye. The absolute perfect desktop to run Linux is Nye. And it's well under $1,000. We'll talk about that. Plus our friends over at Elementary have a new app. Looking pretty good. And then the register says, buckle up. It's going to be the year of GNOME.

And it's going to be the year of Ubuntu. And they got a couple of notes on how it's going to just be a blowout year. And we'll talk about that whole Lenovo firmware bug that cropped up while we were off the air. We'll touch on that. And then Telegram's got a cryptocurrency. And then, Wes, it's back. Linspire returns. Our old friend, the. Linspire returns. Our old friend.

The old Linspire. Remember Lindos? Then Linspire? Remember Zandros? Yeah. They've only been merged together and relaunched. Linspire 7.0 launched this week. And I paid the $80 license fee to download it.

You got your hands on it. And give it a shot. Look at you. I bought it so you don't have to, because you can't just download Lenspire. No, no. You have to buy a $79 license, which includes an install media,

which works out to be $94, all told. The things you do for the audience. So I'll give you my take on the new Lenspire. I mean, so I went into it with with a bit of a bias like 95 95 and then i started to use it yeah it might be the best xfce desktop i've ever used hey boy wow i mean i don't know i'm it's early days but it it blew me away if i could get it installed and running it it'd really impress me. So we'll tell you more about that.

And then, towards the end of the show, at least my god, I hope so. I hope, Wes. Fascinating. It is the final chapter of the Gen 2 Challenge. Well, yeah, we're switching everything over to Linspire. Gen 2 was 2017, so, Wes. The most hated segment of all time. But you know what?

Damned if we didn't actually get a little morsel out of this segment. Wes and I were talking about it before the show, and we genuinely walked away with a lesson. What the hell is Gen 2 for? What good is Gen 2 for? What's its place in 2018 in Linux? And I think we figured it out. And I think it's extremely important. In fact, I think it's sort of like as important as Linux itself is. So we'll talk about that. And we'll hopefully wrap up the Gen 2 challenge. But before we go even a moment further, we got to say holla to

our virtual log. Time appropriate greetings, Mumble Room. Hello. Hello. Hello. Hello. Happy New Year's, everybody. Take a moment from playing SSH Tron, and let's update everybody on Meltdown and Spectre. You and Beard touched on this last week

because it was sort of like this awkward, there's something coming. The pre-release, yeah. Really, it wasn't supposed to be announced until today. Today was the day the embargo was supposed to be lifted, and today was actually the day we were supposed to learn about Meltdown Inspector. In a different universe. Yeah.

Yeah, so we have some great coverage coming out of JB. I'll just say that right now. Later today, the Ask NOAA program is doing a special on Meltdown Inspector, and NOAA is bringing on Brandon Johnson from Red Hat to talk about their work with it, which I think is going to be an extremely interesting insight. And then later in the week, Wes and I are doing a hell of a roundup on Meltdown Inspector. There's still a big part of the story that hasn't been told. We're going to have a complete timeline, a concise timeline of how everything went down.

Lots of interesting tidbits there. So there's more coverage to come. So with that said, just a quick just state of the union for Linux as we record this episode. In brief, Meltdown is a CPU vulnerability. It works by using modern processors out-of-order execution to read arbitrary kernel memory location, which could include personal data like passwords, SSL key information. And then there's Spectre, a second issue. Spectre breaks down the barriers between different applications. So you could theoretically use it to trick applications into accessing arbitrary programs, not kernel, but arbitrary program memory locations. Spectre is harder to exploit than Meltdown, but it's also harder to mitigate. It's more of like a design issue. So it's going to be something we'll be hearing more about through 2018. There's probably going to be more patches coming upstream from Linux. So it's probably just the

beginning of this story. As far as Meltdown is concerned, this is where we have some of the most traction with patches. Work is continuing, though. The latest updates of the upstream stable Linux kernel 4.14.2 have current patches. Some people may experience boot problems with this release, however, so don't jump to get it. 4.14.13 will be out in just a few days.

And patches have also been added to the. 4.14.13 will be out in just a few days. And patches have also been added to the old 4.4 and 4.9 stable kernel trees. Yeah, I've seen a lot of questions expressed about those backports, though, so if security is really your concern, it'll probably be best to have the most recent kernel available. Yeah, and Greg

Cage has sort of been advising that, and 4.14 and 4.15 are getting those. There's still a lot of things that are happening. And it's obvious that the kernel team had more time to prep for Meltdown than they did Spectre. It's a totally different story. There's really no official, like, blessed Greg KH Linus Spectre patches at this point. There's different distributions that have solutions, but there's nothing that's been blessed by upstream yet.

It's really all still shaking out. Yeah, yeah. I've been seeing Red Hat issue kernel updates for the 2-series Linux kernel. Oh, boy. Yeah. Canonical has been updating people on the status of their patches for Ubuntu,

same with other distributions. And there's been reports of performance impacts on certain workloads, specifically cloud workloads that have a lot of, say, disk and network IO. And where security is particularly important. And that's sort of going to be the big story, don't you think, Bashful, long term? Absolutely. There's some people that are reporting up to 40% CPU spikes. And there's a ton of stuff where when they have auto scaling set on for something like Amazon or whatever, and then all of a sudden their bills are just bouncing way up because what used to be an adequate workload for what they had deployed is now auto-scaling up, and they're getting hammered with the bills. Yeah, yeah.

And I think we'll probably talk more about this on TechSnap and get deeper into that, or on Coder Radio maybe too. I was thinking about it, but this is going to really impact the Jupyter Broadcasting development audience. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And, you know, really it's no fun for especially when you when you go into something like cloud computing. So that way you can budget like a certain set cost. And then all of a sudden, like you got to have a bar.

Yeah. So we'll get more into that later. But I also wanted to say, if you've been speculating, I know this affects all kinds of different processors. What about GPUs? The answer is, yeah. Yeah. NVIDIA graphics drivers have been updated to address vulnerabilities.

In the show notes, we have linked a Ubuntu security notice that covers 1710, 1704, 1604, and 1404. And it's the same thing. Jan Horn discovered that microprocessors utilizing speculative execution and branch prediction may allow unauthorized

memory reads via side channel attacks. And guess what? NVIDIA's GPUs take advantage of that little trick as well. So you got to get – Sounds fast. I mean, yeah. Yeah. You got to get NVIDIA driver 384.111 to get that fix on Ubuntu. Good to know.

Yeah. So there is – oh, and then also there's news today or yesterday that – but it's been updated today that Microsoft has halted the Meltdown Inspector patches for Windows 10 after AMD machines were reported as unbootable. Ooh. Yeah. It seems like there's a lot of difficult patches. And as always, it's – you know, patching is – sometimes it's trivial. Sometimes it's like, OK, two packages got upgraded. But especially when it's your kernel, you got to be careful.

It's interesting that Microsoft can really turn the dial on this one. So they can just go, all right, well, we're going to continue pushing patches, but not for machines with AMD processors. They can get really granular on what client machines receive updates. They have a very tight control. It's that cloud connectivity, Chris. Oh, oh, oh. So yeah, not a good day for our Windows users either. Ask Noah if you're on the live stream. Comes on right after Linux Unplugged now.

We're doing like a Linux blowout afternoon. It's perfect. You just sit down in the afternoon, hang out with us for a couple of hours, and have a great time. That crazy guy is working on integrating Mumble with the phone call system too. Oh, that's fantastic. Yeah. You join the virtual lug during the show and then you just hang tight

and you can participate in Ask Noah right with your same Mumble setup. And so, yeah, he'll be taking calls and be discussing Spectre and Meltdown with his guests. So that'll be coming up more. I think go over to techsnap.systems and subscribe to our feed there because I have a suspicion

that this is a story that is just beginning. And there's going to be a waning period where people sort of get tired of it. But what we're going to do with – I would suspect what we always do with TechSnap is we continue to monitor story and find interesting nuggets that maybe aren't getting reported on very much and just continue to follow it for a while. Three, six, nine months. Pieces of this are going to be popping up. Yeah, exactly. So long term, you'll probably see a lot of coverage there. Now, anybody in the mumble room want to talk about this big story before we move on?

Oh, Bashful, you said you had some crashes at work. I didn't see that. Yeah, a couple of the guys are doing some testing for our internal stuff. And there's like a reg file that you actually have to import, and they've now said don't do it because we started getting a bunch of systems dropping out due to that. So now we're just waiting. We had to go and pull it back out, and now it's just a wait and see thing. Yeah. Yeah, I have a sense that, you know, and it's unfortunate.

There's not only the performance issues, but there's apparently some stability issues and other side effects. And at the same time, you know that there has been developers and other people that have just been working their butts off to get this stuff out in time, especially when it was disclosed earlier than it should have been. this stuff out in time, especially when it was disclosed earlier than it should have been. So you got to take a moment and say thank you to these people, these unnamed faceless people who were working over the holidays, working through Christmas and New Year's to try to get this stuff together. And it might not be perfect yet, but my God, where would we be without them? Right. It's definitely a scramble and there are people doing the scrambling. Yeah. So you got to, in one moment, you got to go, okay, thank you guys. Appreciate the hard work you're doing out there.

It really just sucks. We did CPUs wrong. Everything is ruined. And we all have to pay. It's all bad. Actually, it's funny. We're going to get back to that in a moment. We're going to go back to the good old days before processors were broken.

But before we go there, I want to give a shout out to two open source projects that I bet you're not using that you really should be. And I'm guilty of this myself. So I may be projecting, but first project that had an update since last episode is Shotcut, a really good video editor on Linux. I don't understand why we don't talk about it. It has one of the features that Rikai and I like the most in Final Cut X, which is it renders preview stills and waveforms in line with your media. So it's all together and it makes it easy to skim and preview. Yeah. And it's got good performance. And they just added a feature that I am particularly interested in. It's an audio spectrum visualization filter, which we use for a lot of our audio-only shows,

and we use a series of Python scripts and whatnot. But this may be a way to do one-offs in a new and interesting way. So Shotcut just had a new update just a couple of days ago. It's released 18.01, and it just, it's I think maybe the best open-source video editor you're not using. And it doesn't have as much hype as some of the other ones, but it's just been so steadily awesome. So Shotcut, shotcut.org for that. And then I know you're not using this one because you all keep talking about Evernote replacements and killers.

And the reality is we've had an Evernote killer for ages now. It's even been an app pick on the Linux Action Show. Oh, yeah, I remember that. And it just got even better. So just a couple of days ago, an interesting naming scheme again, 1801.1 of QOwnNotes has been replaced. Now, this is a plain text notepad with Markdown support and own cloud slash NextCloud syncing integration. And one of the things they've recently added that I'm all on board with, and it is a full featured, really well done application. Don't let the queue throw you off if you're like a GNOME desktop or Unity user or whatever. It is great.

It is a well designed, cute application. But one of the things that they've added recently that I really appreciate is they've – you've always been able to kind of create like to-do lists and whatnot. But now you've actually got the ability to check items off in your notes. So you can create a list of these are the things I've got to do today. And then when you're done, you can go in there and check them off. That's awesome. It's a simple thing, but it makes such a difference for my note-taking application. I use the shit out of this for like about to hit the road and I need to do a checklist of all the stuff I got to bring, all the equipment we got to bring to go do like

a live show. So useful. And the fact that you can then sync on the backend with different open source solutions, you can do small little like note windows that just take up tiny bits of space, or you can do like a full featured thing that allows you to browse your tags and your different categories, and it has multi-column live preview of the Markdown. You can go all out, or you can just have it be this tiny little window on your desktop. It's one of my favorite Qt applications for Linux. It is better than an Evernote replacement because it's using Markdown, it uses NextCloud, and I don't know why we don't talk about it more. So I just thought since they had a new release release they just pumped out a new version that now lets you check things off it's time to install that just right now because that's half of what i would do right yeah that's

a that's a great app pick i've been looking for a placement for zim wiki for a long time i think this is it yeah this looks terrific yeah i've even been wondering if we couldn't use this for production of our shows instead of using Slack and Google Docs or whatever else. It seems like this has just got a lot of potential. So I think 2018 may be the year of QO notes for me. I have to give some love to my NextCloud instance first. Plus, there's a new version of NextCloud that's just around the corner. So I may let that land first and then do this.

But I feel like it's happening but I feel like it's happening. I feel like it's happening, Wes. Apparently, you can also import from Evernote to QO Notes. Oh, yeah. Yeah, so stop talking about Evernote alternatives because QO Notes has been here for a while, and they got the new update, 18.01.1, which just came out, and I love it.

I think there's tools like that that we don't really fully wrap our head around yet that make Linux a competitive desktop. But you've got to have great hardware too. It's not just about getting a great LTS release or getting a great rolling release and getting your favorite desktop, you also need to run it on the best hardware possible. And we've all seen different solutions for the ultimate Linux workstation, the ones you build yourself. Dell just recently updated the XPS 13, which looks like a killer laptop. I thought you were just supposed to use a Raspberry Pi,

and that was the end of the story. Is that not? You're telling me that we can do more? Oh, well. Well, there's a machine on the horizon that Wimpy and I have been talking about to each other offline for ages now. And we finally, with CES in full swing, have details on what I think is going to be 2018's perfect Linux desktop. 2018's perfect Linux desktop. And it's a NUC. It's the Intel Hades Canyon NUC with the dedicated, quote-unquote,

Radeon graphics that comes on the Intel CPU. Oh. And then you combine that with Thunderbolt 3 ports, super fast disk, the latest Intel processors. Wimpy, what do you think? This has got to be the desktop of the year right i'm really hoping so and i'm going to find out by buying one the day they go yeah i'm very tempted to it it's a weird situation to be in so we talked about this a little bit on user error episode 40

i've been follow i've been tracking the the rumors about this device for some months now. I have its predecessor. So this is, I have the Skull Canyon NUC. And I'm in a weird position where I've been so happy with the Skull Canyon NUC, I've been pining for its replacement almost since I got it. Because I was like, if this is so good, what's the next one going to be like? And here it is. We've now seen it announced at CES 2018.

And are you satisfied? Yes. I mean, there is nothing about this specification of this device that I'm unhappy about. I'm really looking forward to getting one. Yeah. Yeah. I don't find it wanting. If I was going to be really nitpicky,

the only thing I would say is I can't upgrade it to 64 gigs of RAM. I can only go to 32, which is what I have in the current NUC. But then the flip side of that is when I get this one, I will just be able to pop my old one open, remove the two M2 SSDs, remove the two um m2 ssds remove the ram plug them into the new one plug my um razor core into one of the thunderbolt ports and power it on and i'm back in business on a whole new hardware platform yeah that's you know almost instantly yeah the one other thing i would have asked for is uh two is because it has one Thunderbolt 3 bus, two Thunderbolt 3 buses, like maybe four USB-C type,

would have been amazing. I do like there's double nicks there, though. Yeah, that's true. And if I put my storage over Ethernet instead of over Thunderbolt, then that's probably fine. There's six display options on this, right? Because there's two Thunderbolt 3, there's two mini display port, because there's two thunderbolt 3 there's two mini dvi yeah sorry mini display port and there's two hdmi the hdmi are both hdmi 2.0a with hdcp 2.2 i mean it's

absolutely specced to the max um oh there is a third you're right there is a third usb-c port on the front of it so there is technically three usbc ports it's just one thunderbolt three bus bus yes also internal headers for usb ports really yeah it's it's totally tripped i i really love it i it's um it's a bit fatter than the one that i have but then again the skull on the new one is illuminated with red and blue um led so you know you can't really go wrong yeah yeah it's uh it's still smaller than a mac mini i think yeah the the thing i want to see is power v usb uh c yeah that's just too much of a machine for that though i think it takes uh this machine draws um i mean 6.32 amps with uh similar capacities that do it yeah maybe maybe i don't know six six amps is a lower power model with the 65 watt model you might be able to power over usbc but

the the larger one that's 100 watt i don't think you can do over usbc yeah i can't i can't imagine my usbc charges all capped at like 65 watts, I think. I'm just reading the specs. It's a 120-watt adapter, 19 volts at 16.32 amps is what the specs are for it. Man, I really like this thing. So not only is it tiny, but it's quiet too, right? Yours is pretty quiet, Wimpy. Yeah, my NUC is quiet.

Obviously, my 1080 ti and a razor core is a little bit right louder yeah but thankfully through the magic of directional microphones you can't hear it so when you see you but you have the ability to dynamically switch between the external gpu in the razor core and the internal intel gpu correct yes in fact up until two days ago that's how i was running things so when we spoke about this a few weeks ago i had uh one of my monitors uh exclusively powered by the igp in the nuc and the other monitor exclusively powered by uh the 1080 Ti in the Razer Core. Right. And the acceleration was on one monitor with the 1080 Ti.

And it's a seamless X session. There's a little bit of magic in the way you need to set this up. But I can drag windows between the two monitors, and you can watch the 3D performance drop off as you drag it from the NVIDIA accelerated screen to the intel accelerated screen but um over the weekend i've actually changed my setup so i now have uh display ports out of the back of the 1080 ti to both monitors so i'm not using the internal igp at all now i'm driving both monitors just off the ti and i've actually had the happy

coincidence of a performance boost through doing that which i can't explain but what do you think what do you think about the do you think there's going to be an advantage to this dedicated uh bastardization of an intel processor with an amd gpu i mean that's that's sort of the big story about this knuck yeah i mean it certainly um got a lot of people's sort of the big story about this NUC. Yeah, I mean, it's certainly got a lot of people sort of scratching their heads and excited in that you've got an Intel CPU package with an AMD graphics SKU bolted on the side. And a SKU that it could be possible to use entirely free graphics drivers. Yeah, absolutely. So you referred to it as radeon graphics but

specifically the branding here is this is rx vega mobile graphics um and i i don't know much about how the consoles are manufactured the the ps4 and the xbox uh 1s and 1x but they obviously have a combination of intel cpu and um radeon graphics as well so i wonder if this is an evolution of that package and maybe this is this is maybe the smallest games console that's yet to hit the market no kidding and maybe future games consoles are going to be built around similar architecture well have you seen that they're pitching it, the 999 US Greenback version, as a VR-ready machine? Yeah, yeah, I have.

Nobody cares about VR. No, of course not. That's unfortunate. Yeah. So, the other thing about the NUC that I really, really appreciate, besides its size and its low-noise profile, is that they've really built the storage ideally. So the core platform is set up so that the M.2 slots,

and there's two of them, I believe, and that the Thunderbolt controller, by the way, are hooked up directly to PCIe lanes right off the PCH. So you have super high bandwidth, hungry things like disk or Thunderbolt peripherals that get dedicated PCIe lanes right to the CPU, which means your disk is sitting right next to the CPU. It's got a fast track lane to the CPU. And so you combine the latest Intel CPUs with storage that's wired directly to the CPU, and it makes for a very fast combination. to the CPU, and it makes for a very fast combination.

Yeah, and right now, in fact, on the model that I have, the M.2 SATA ports are both MVME, and they've both got their own dedicated lanes, so the disk performance is excellent. What I'm really excited about in this model is I've currently got one USB Thunderbolt port, and I have the 1080 Ti connected to that. But I also have a HDMI capture card that I can connect over Thunderbolt 3

and mimic a third screen through this capture device, but I can't have both running at the same time. So I'm now kind of excited by this one because i could have both of those things um connected up i think this is going to be like i say and another one at the front i think this might be you know the i find the xps 13 extremely appealing yeah maybe dell can convince me otherwise uh i've invited barton george from dell on the show next week if it works for him to talk about the new dell hardware but you know with uh with the price of bitcoin dropping i'm going to be more selective you have to you have to watch 2018 is going to be more selective and i'm if i can only buy one machine i think it's this one i i actually had one of those

new xps 13s in my shopping basket on Sunday evening and the additional accessories I wanted. And I was sitting there hovering over the buy button, thinking to myself, this will make my fourth XPS 13. Do I need a fourth XPS? And I eventually decided to bail on the purchase and decided that I didn't need a fourth one of these just yet and i'm kind of glad i did because then the next day this device gets announced and i think it's going to come on the market in march which is ahead of the projections that i'd seen yeah rumored of around june so yeah i'm gonna i'm gonna hang on to my money and and get one of these in march i've been trying to convince wes of this for about a year is I'm becoming a big fan of the powerful central desktop that is permanently attached to my large NAS storage.

So I can run services like Ambienplex directly on my quote unquote workstation. And then on the edge, my edge devices can be phones, can be low-end 2012 laptops that don't need to be all that powerful because I can either remote in using X to go to my machine and then have my full power available. I've set up a series of queue jobs where I have different folders in Dropbox, and when I drop files in there, they sync to my powerful workstation and kick off different jobs for me. And so my theory is invest in a central desktop, like a NUC that could be attached to local NAS storage. I mean, this thing's going to have dual gigabit networking. I could just dedicate one of those to an iSCSI or NFS purpose and then the other one connected to the rest of the networking then you

could hook up external gpus when i need to game and when i quote unquote need to game and uh if i don't i could just use the baked in amd gpu which is going to be great which will support free sync could have an entirely free open source driver stack. And it's going to be the ideal machine to be running during the Wayland transition, I suspect. Oh, yeah. And it's just refreshing, especially when you've run a bunch of random machines with different manufacturers doing the motherboard and doing all these internals. As Wimpy said, it does just feel tricked out and it feels like a proper computer that you can be proud of. The other thing that I'm taking some comfort in, and I bet you agree, Wimpy, is this appears to be a product that Intel is going to continue to invest in because the NUC now has been around

for ages and they've been steadily improving it. So it's something where you could buy the Skull Canyon NUC last year and you essentially had full confidence that there was going to be another NUC for you to upgrade to. And that's also kind of nice because when you're buying some of these machines, sometimes different OEMs will start up a product line and they'll have it going for a year or two. And then their upstream ODM changes things up and they have to cancel that product line and launch an entirely new product line. And there's no congruency there. There's no, you know, continuance there. Yeah. Now, while I appreciate that this new Hades Canyon NUC is not cheap by any means, I think the 65 watt model is going to – is rumored to be $799 and the 100 watt model is rumored to be $999 but what i'm able and that

comes without discs or um ssds and it comes without ram and it comes without an operating system but those three parts are interchangeable for me so i'm going to take the ram and the ssds out of my old model and plug them into this one i don't have to buy those this time and your e gpu as well i'm going to plug my e gpu in and i'm off to the races yeah so i actually anticipate the upgrade is going to be the time it takes me to unscrew one remove the parts plug them into the other and put the lids back on that's what i'm talking about a few minutes that's what i'm talking about and as a work station as a work station where you work and you want it to be reliable and you want to have minimal fuss that's that is even if it only works for two models even if you can only pull this off from

from the skull canyon to the hades skull canyon, the Hades, even if it only happens once, that is so worth it. That kind of smooth, keep going about your day kind of, it's going to take you the time to reassemble and disassemble. That is so valuable. That's what I'm talking about. Like the same thing here is we bought early on when the NUCs were brand new and they were those cute little squares. Yeah, I've had a couple of those too.

Yeah, it was the same. I have some of those. Yeah, it was the same thing as we were able to move the parts between them. And that brought a certain like glue and duct tapeness to them. Like we could just stick them wherever we needed them. They weren't always even the best machine for the job. But because they were so flexible and so easy to move parts in, you could just stick them wherever you needed them. And it is supremely useful.

So, yeah, this will probably be the generation I buy in. I kind of wish I got the Skull Canyon. It just didn't really work out. But I think this will be the year, hopefully. So maybe we'll have reviews. I'm sure you'll have a review, if nothing else, on the Fantastic Ubuntu podcast when it returns. Well, that's still undecided of course of course yes of course it is some break we are we are very much pre-curry

at this point has curry been scheduled no no we haven't yet okay all right but we are in full christmas new year break not even talking about it to one another at the moment. Amazing. I can't even fathom. What a world. I can't even fathom. What a world. Yeah, it's some sort of utopia.

Speaking of utopia, why not switch over to a mobile utopia? Go to Ting, linux.ting.com. It's a smarter way to do mobile because you only pay for what you freaking use. I know. They just take your minutes, your messages, and your megabytes, and they put them all together. And they're like, okay, guess what, Holmes? $6 for the line. And then your usage. That's it. That's it. What about weird fees? Do I have to sign a five-year deal to get that sweet price? No contracts. In fact, you could try it for a month, and you could say, screw you, I'm out of here. And there's no termination fee. In fact, if you want to turn it on, turn it off, you could do that. I have two MiFis from Ting,

one that I leave on all the time and then one that I only leave on when I'm traveling because it's CDMA and I'm like, eh, you know, but it's great for when I'm traveling. I just go to linux.ting.com. I log into my S, I turn it on. It's so straightforward. $6 a month for the device means that if you need a, like a go-to line for a, for a monitoring device for, for something in your it bag, it's easy. But if you want to use it as your full service, it gets, you get, you feel like you're hacking the system. You know, you feel like you're, you're hacking the system. Cause you can, you can download your audio books and your podcasts, and you can pin your music on wifi. And then if you don't take calls while you're driving, I mean, like for me, like when I'm

going, when I'm commuting just between work and home, I'm like some sort of like new age non-cell using guy. Like you wouldn't even think I had a cell phone. I don't talk to anybody on the phone when I'm driving. That's crazy. And don't even text me. I'm using the, I'm using iOS 11. You know what I turned on?

You know what they got in that thing? What do they got? What do they got? They got this, they got this, this system where it automatically using the accelerometer and the Wi-Fi chipset, when it notices that you're blasting past Wi-Fi access points like a maniac, the phone

goes, oh, you're driving. You're driving. Let me turn on do not disturb mode. Well, isn't that nice? So people, when they text me, they get a message back going, homeboy's driving. Do you really need to interrupt him? Is it that important? What?

You got nothing else to do right now? What's your big deal? Yeah, why are you so bored? You're so important? Get your life on. So they get like this thing that comes back, tells them to shut the hell up so they don't bother me. So you're happy already right there.

And I don't have to deal with nothing. I just listen to my podcasts. Driving along. Never spending a dime on cellular because you just pay for what you use. $6 for the line, you pay for what you use. Go to linux.ting.com

and I got a suggestion. You need a phone? Do you need a phone? Yeah, oh, who doesn't? What do you got? Me? Do you have the Pixel? I do have the Pixel.

You don't really need a phone. But I mean, maybe I need a phone. You will when you... What about like a backup phone? Well, when you drop that a phone. But, I mean, maybe I need a phone. You will. What about like a backup phone? Well, when you drop that thing. Or when I smash this to tiny little bits. So everybody knows that some of the best Android experiences are the Motorola devices. Check this out.

Motorola G5S Plus. $250 when you go to linux.ting.com. No contract. It's new. It's a multi-network CDMA and GSM. So you can just pick whatever works best in your area um and you can even deactivate and reactivate it's got 32 gigs of storage goes up to 128 gigs with s with a external sd oh i love that i know more phones need to have micro sd

also has turbo charging so you can charge you can get six hours of battery in 15 minutes nice it has a super high resolution so 5.5 inch screen but it's a 400 401 ppi density yeah yeah it's and it's got a fingerprint unlock all metal design android 7.1 with uh android 8 update coming soon they sound like uh flagship features without a flagship price chris 250 25254, you completely own it outright. No contract, no agreements, nothing. $254, you completely own this phone. You get a great Android experience. 8.0 is coming down the pipeline.

Fingerprint reader, 401 PPI screen, and you pay for what you use. It's obvious. Linux.ting.com. Go there, get $25 off the device. Or if you want to bring one, if you've got something that's compatible, check their BYOD page. They'll give you service credit. Linux.ting.com. And thank you to Ting for sponsoring this here unplugged program. on the Medium blog that Elementary... I think that's how it works. I don't get Medium, but my vague understanding is

you can have a Medium blog, and Elementary has a Medium blog. And over there, Cassidy wrote about a new tool that's coming to Elementary desktop users, and I thought, who better to pick the brain of than regular friend of the show, Mr. Dan the Rabbit.

Woo! Yeah. So Mr. Dan the Rabbit. Woo! Yeah. So Mr. Daniel Foray joins us from the elementary project with what I perceive to be, has to be, the only scoop on this, right? Nobody better to go to than, well, except for maybe Cassidy since he wrote the post. Shit. Well, we got Dan.

So Dan, what can you tell us about what may be renamed to something that may be named code soon okay so i guess the big the big thing about it is it's not really necessarily a new thing it's a new old thing so we've been working um we released our scratch text editor in like 2011 right like when we did uh luna way back in the day and hacking on this thing for ages kind of came to a point with it where we sat down and kind of thought about okay what's the point of this app like what is it supposed to do is it for notes is it for hacking on code is it you know what what's what do we do with this app? And we finally decided, you know, this is an app that we use

every day for programming. And so we're going to rebrand it. We're going to change all the defaults and we're going to make it a great code editor and not just a generic text editor. I think this is, this is great. It looks good too. Now I have so many questions that come to mind when I hear this. So first of all, do you, okay, boy, I don't want to forget them, so I'm going to tell you what they both are. Number one, do you think people are going to use this over, say, Atom or Visual Studio Code or Sublime Text or Insert whatever? And Gnome Builder.

Yeah, or, and Gnome Builder, yeah. And do you perceive that a large, do you perceive, I guess I should say, that a large portion of the elementary OS user base are developers or are they more end users? This seems like – I don't know. This is – I love it. I think it looks great. I think it's a great idea. But I also wonder if it's a little bit of a of a of a result of a of an echo chamber or a bubble um i mean well to answer the first question uh definitely at least um we use it

all the time and we hear about people who use it because they're they're filing issue reports and tweeting at us and stuff like that um so we know that there's a good amount of people that prefer having a native app to like a cross-platform or electronic app. Sure, yeah. Yeah, I would be one of those people, yeah. Yeah, just for performance and integration features. I mean, there's niceties in code that you get.

So in the latest version of Terminal, we have style schemes now. And if you use the Term terminal plugin in code and you change your style scheme in the terminal app the terminal plugin and code will match the new style cool so there's a lot of little niceties like that where it's the apps are integrated with each other and they feel native so there's there's come some compelling reasons to use code instead of using a different uh text editor app like adam yeah but uh and your second question was i'm sorry what was it well i mean do you see a large portion of your user base um wanting

something like this do you see a lot of developers on elementary or is it mostly just you guys that are the developers on elementary well we're definitely um we're working with a new large third-party ecosystem of developers. We just crossed 70 apps in App Center. So a huge part of our focus and our mission lately has been making sure that we have a really great developer story for them. I see. And including great developer tools out of the box, I think, is part of that story. Right. Of course.

You want to make it easier for people to make applications for elementary desktop users, even if it's not a huge portion of the user base. There's going to be some people that are using the desktop to create applications for those users. That makes a lot of sense. I think it looks great. So can people get their hands on it right now? Or is this like the final, like, quote,unquote code version when it's completely become code? Is that going to be something that is in a future release? Well, you can go pull Gitmaster.

It's open source up at github.com forward slash elementary forward slash code. That's easy. Yeah, super easy, right? Hey, that's easy. Yeah, super easy, right? But we are doing the stable release of code will come with our Juno update, which is the next release of elementary OS. So Juno is going to be based on 1804? That's correct.

Oh, man. You know, I want to ask you, like, how long until after 1804? But I know you don't have an answer for me. But just to set expectations, do you want to, like, set any kind of expectations how long Juno may be until we actually are downloading and installing it on our systems? Well, I can tell you that we're testing 1804 daily builds right now and that we've been building all of our apps on 1710 before that in preparation. So we have a lot of major migration work and regression testing already done. So we're really hoping to get as close as possible to that 1804 release date uh maybe give a little padding so that we're not overlapping with their press releases but um we're we're really gonna try as hard as possible to get it out right away you know it's interesting it's awesome daniel yeah go you yeah it is it is really

good thanks and i i think um i've i've been looking at elementary OS in a different perspective as Ubuntu is getting better. For some reason, like I look at 18.04 based on GNOME and I think this is going to be the development workstation to compete with. 18.04 is going to be Canonical's second crack at shipping a GNOME desktop. And I'll say that 17.10 is essentially the beta test for 18.04. And so they're trying out a lot of stuff in 17.10. And what you're going to get with 18.04 is the best of what worked. On top of that, Ubuntu is enjoying quite a bit of brand recognition at the moment, quite a bit of industry support. And from all indications,

snaps seem to be also increasing in industry support. So these things are all coming together, I think. And plus, then you combine things like the new XPS 13 and this NUC that's coming along, it's going to just be an undoubtedly great solid Linux workstation. To me, it seems like 18.04 is going to be uniquely competitive in its draw to developers and the Sputnik-type users that Dell has seen success with their sales. But at the same time, elementary OS seems very poised to sort of take advantage of some of the same momentum. And it could come down to your desktop has less rough edges than the GNOME experience and that's enough to sway a certain percentage of people. It could come down to the native applications are more appealing to a certain set of users than having everything as an electron on your Ubuntu desktop.

And so I am really interested in the Juno release because it's going to be released in such a competitive year for Linux desktops because – and we're not even talking about like the work that Fedora is doing. And so it's just going to be a fascinating release to watch. And I am, I think, at least I hope, I think you guys are going to be better positioned. The closer you are to the 1804 release, the better positioned you are to be considered an alternative. And code and things like that I think are a really good step in that direction. I'll tell you what, when things get closer, if you want a very particular beta tester, let me know. I'd be happy to kick the tires a bit to give you some feedback because i'm really excited about the release definitely definitely and i'd love to talk to you more about it on the show too as we come up with more announcements of what we're going to be working on we're going to try to um we recently

kind of switched uh loki over into maintenance mode and we had been doing these uh monthly updates posts for yes right so i like that going forward um we're going to be trying to make at least monthly posts about all the new features that are coming into juno as they land i i think if you are and not you i mean just like the proverbial like people out there that are that are releasing distributions if um you didn't watch what happened with 1710 and did Rock's blog posts that communicated where they were going with 1710 and how dramatically that impacted the perception and reception to Ubuntu 1710, then you're asleep at the wheel. If you are running

any distribution out there and didn't learn a lesson from how that communication made a huge difference, then you probably ought to just give up. Because I know it's difficult because it takes a ton of effort to make a great blog post like that. It takes somebody who actually knows what's going on. You got to get screenshots. It is more effort than we'd like to admit it is. But the rewards are so high and

um you guys are getting there with these i i've been i've been i didn't expect it throughout the loki release i did not i didn't expect the updates on what's going on and every time they've they've landed on the blog i've been like that's great that gives us something to talk about it makes it makes the distribution um a relevant topic for the week. You get an idea of what their focus is. It's like you can observe something over a longer period of time

and get a better idea. Yes. Yeah. So good on you. I'm glad to hear it. Sounds like you guys learned some of those lessons watching the 1710 release too.

And boy, I just, I feel bad for the distributions that haven't figured that out yet. Well, good, Dan. Keep us posted. I'm looking forward to hearing that. Now, that out yet. Well, good, Dan. Keep us posted. I'm looking forward to hearing that. Now, the Register has a story where they make the case that it's going to be the year of GNOME and that when you add in Flatpak and Snaps, it could be a new revolution for the Linux desktop.

That's right. It only took our first episode in 2018 for us to call it as the year of the Linux desktop. Boom! Thank you, Register. So I guess we should mention since our last episode where I was on it in 2017, there was a bug right as we got off the air that became public that 1710 was causing some issues on some Lenovo laptops. was causing some issues on some Lenovo laptops. And apparently it was the Intel SBI driver, which allows for BIOS firmware updates, which is, I guess, not primetime ready.

And so that's still kind of going on as we talk about this. So 1710 has been a great release, except for that whole laptop thing. I haven't followed it closely wimpy is there any do you have any anecdotes or any additional information or status of where it's at right now before i move on from it uh yeah i tell you what i'll paste something in the discourse discord just quickly yeah all right that's that's the link to the the ISO testing for the re-spin of the 1710 ISOs for Ubuntu and all the flavors. So that testing is happening now, and the release is scheduled for Thursday, the 11th of January. And, boy, so 1710 has been unavailable that entire time?

It has for main ubuntu yeah yeah um so but the the thing is is that everyone thinks that this is an ubuntu problem and no it wasn't the case other distributions have had this problem it's just at scale more people right experience it with ubuntu it's an intel sbi driver issue right so it's it's really anything anybody that turns on in so the the the it's ubuntu's fault narrative has been well canonical are the ones that decided to turn that feature on because it's it's actually turned off by default upstream lots of things are turned off upstream that are turned on yeah boy isn't that true sure. Yeah. So it sounds like 1710 will be, again, like I said, in some ways it's like you do this now to figure out what not to do for 1804, right? So it's like you catch this now before it's in the LTS.

Same with the Wi-Fi crack issue and now Meltdown Inspector. Just have a go. 1804 is going to ship with crack patched and this issue figured out and the Meltdown Inspector patches. Right. So there really is a logic to the process. But the register proposes that canonical dropping Unity was the biggest single story in Linux for 2017, and they think that Ubuntu without Unity will continue to be a big story for the foreseeable future because with Ubuntu using GNOME Shell,

and remember this isn't Chris saying this, this is the register, with Ubuntu using GNOME Shell, almost all the major distributions out there now ship primarily with gnome making gnome shell the de facto standard linux desktop which um if i if you were gonna if i were gonna rewrite that i might say making gtk more like the de facto toolkit but yeah you're probably right about that i've i've got opinions about that article yeah and i'm just I'm just going to start by saying these are not colored by my involvement in the Marte project at all. This is me talking as a Linux desktop enthusiast that has an appreciation for Linux desktops across the board. appreciation for Linux desktops across the board. And if you look at the big applications that people are using on the Linux desktop, Firefox and Thunderbird and LibreOffice and Google Chrome

and Skype and Slack and Spotify, just to name a few, none those are gtk3 applications none of those are gnome applications yeah chrome so i i don't i don't necessarily agree this is going to drive developers to creating gnome applications that's a fair point. currently budgie but eventually cute cinnamon is another one you know so it does give a common toolkit target but i really don't think that developers who want to target the linux desktop are suddenly going to want to learn the complexities of gtk3 at all known builder is not enough to make it make that happen personally i don't think so. I think that if developers are going to come to Linux, you just look at the big applications now. You've got Adobe with brackets.

You've got Atom, Microsoft Visual Studio Code, Microsoft Skype. These are all Electron applications. Spotify's Chromium Embedded Frameworks, which is a similar framework tool. I think if we're going to see the large software vendors bring their software to linux it's going to be through a more portable cross-platform framework like electron right yeah these moves may have helped several years ago but electron is still the easiest path forward right the most maintainable but it does have to count for something i mean if you have the ubiquity of gK and GNOME, and then you bring in Flat and SnapPaks. Oh, yeah.

I mean, the story there is there is a common target now in a way that we've never had with Linux. Yes, definitely. Definitely Snap and FlatPak give you a way to target the Linux desktop in terms of easing your package and packaging and software delivery in a way that third party developers who are not in the Linux bubble have had before. What about the horrible irony, and this is my personal opinion, that our friends over in Plasma land may have better solutions. Here I am. I'm not using gnome three because I find it to be laggy and crashy, which I do not have that problem on my,

on my machine at home. I'm running the plasma desktop. What about all the KDE fans out there? Because this is, this sucks. This sucks for them. If no, every major does.

No, no. For the same them. No, I don't think it does. No? No, for the same reason. You have the open source enthusiasts who will be developing GNOME applications or KDE applications and working on KDE or working on GNOME or similar and related technologies. And then you have projects, because not even Firefox, although Firefox looks like it may integrate with GTK3, it's not a GTK3 application. It only takes hints from GTK3 as to how to style and theme. And the same is true for LibreOffice and the same is true for Google Chrome and Chromium. Those are probably the biggest applications people are using on the desktop right now.

And the same is also true for all of the Electron applications. now and the same is also true for all of the electron applications it was only on november the 27th last year the gtk3 support landed in electron upstream and even today with electron i think it's 1.8 point something beta 3 that's still linked against gtk2 so they're not releasing you know new versions of electron that are linked and built against GTK2. CentOS and Red Hat Enterprise Linux and Ubuntu all shipping GNOME desktop plus then some of the most popular derivatives, Ubuntu Mate, Elementary OS, Solus. They're all using GTK desktops. The foregone conclusion is, well, that's our new target now. GNOME 320 or later is our new target. And give it time.

In 2019, it may be a foregone conclusion that you just target GNOME 320 or something. I think elementary are the exception to the rule here in that they've actually got a growing community of application developers targeting specifically their toolkit, their design design language and their desktop environment and i don't and the key word here is growing you know because it's clearly growing because every time daniel comes on and talks about this yeah the number of apps has gone up by 10 right and we also know that isn't an untruth because we can see it. But I don't think that this is true for those other desktops and their application ecosystem. But I'm not saying that the Linux desktop is in a state of decline. I think it could be in a very healthy place. But I think a lot of the applications that we're going to be using aren't going to be native to the desktop environment that we're currently running.

I do agree. Yeah, and I think it's just a market reality. It's where it's the same. It's not actually, it's not a Linux. It's not unique to Linux. It is something that Mac users are also going through and Windows users. Slack is an Electron app on Windows and it's just as much as it is on the Mac and just as much as it is on a Linux desktop. It's not something it's unique to us it's a it's a bigger story it's a bigger

market dynamic that's going on than linux and so i think it's i think you're just absolutely right because of those forces at play but i'd love to hear what daniel has to say because i know he has opinions about this i've spoken long enough oh boy do i have opinions now i you know um that one of the big problems i think is actually um coming from a design perspective instead of a toolkit perspective because even gtk apps that are built for gnome don't necessarily work on other desktop environments for example gnome games requires some system settings that are part of GNOME in order to configure where the library gets stored. Or GNOME Builder shows two maximize icons on Elementor OS because it expects that in GNOME there is no maximize icon.

Yeah. Oh, that's brutal. It's so basic. It's so 90s. It's so basic. It's actually pathetic. But I can't call this a GNOME problem because we have the same problem the other way. People who are writing apps for elementary OS are expecting to use our style sheet because we have special features that they take advantage of, style classes, things like that. So when you use our apps on GNOME or even on Mate, they're really broken. on GNOME or even on Mate, like they're really broken. And the guys in Pop!OS have been doing a lot of work in their style sheet to try to maintain compatibility with apps that have been targeted and built for elementary lives. Sure. Yeah. Now, it to me seems like this is the downside or downside is probably too harsh. This is the side effect. This is the action reaction when you try to create a platform. So Gnome Builder is meant for the GNOME platform, right?

GNOME software is meant for the GNOME platform, GNOME games. All of that is meant for the GNOME desktop platform. And we all remember when the GNOME folks were talking about building even GNOME OS. Remember when GNOME OS was going to be a thing? Like they're not building these things for people running Mate or Pantheon. They're building these things for people that are running a modern version of the GNOME platform. And if you're building a platform, just like you guys are building a platform um that's just isn't that just how it goes yeah i don't think any amount of toolkit or packaging work is ever going to solve this problem the only thing that you can do to solve it is as

a design and development team decide that you're going to forego any form of desktop integration you're going to forego rules in human interface guidelines you're going to forego any form of desktop integration. You're going to forego rules in human interface guidelines. You're going to forego special platform features and special design features. And then you get new Skype. Right. You're going to build something that's either completely non-native everywhere

or people are going to have a bad time on different platforms. You're completely correct. All right. Well, we got to move on, but great point. And we can pick it up in the post show if we have more. But let's talk about where you can get it right. Digital Ocean. DigitalOcean.com.

Go over there, create an account, and then use our promo code DEOunplugged. You apply that, it's one word, you get a $10 credit at Digital Ocean. DigitalOcean.com is an easy way to get cloud resources on demand when you need them running on top of Linux. Everything's SSD. DigitalOcean.com. Go spin up a machine in less than 55 seconds. Every single machine is SSD because they're an all-SSD cloud. They have an intuitive API that's really easy to work with and a lot of open source codes

already built around it. But better than that, they have the interface, the dashboard for days. Digitalocean.com. Use our promo code D-O, unplugged. I'm just going to mention this because this is one of my personal goals for 2018. And I say I'm not a resolutions guy, but if there's something about just starting fresh, I'm taking advantage of monitoring and alerting, collecting metrics, monitoring performance, and receiving alerts so I can optimize the Jupyter Broadcasting backend. And it's just built in. No additional cost.

DigitalOcean.com. Go spin up my favorite machine. They got machines as cheap as $5 a month. So like our $10 credit, it's going to get you two months for free. DO unplugged. But my favorite system is $0.03 an hour. $0.03 an hour. That's insane, right?

But it's a beast. 2 gigs of RAM, 2 virtual CPUs, 40 gigabytes of SSD, and 3 terabytes of transfer. You can do whatever you want on that. Oh, boom. DigitalOcean.com. Use our promo code D1Plugged. Also, a quick plug for a community documentation, how to use ProxySQL as a load balancer for MySQL on Ubuntu 16.04. And I'm going to add an addendum.

Consider also private networking. DigitalOcean's private networking feature with proxy SQL. You're welcome. I just saved you some money. I just made things way faster. I just made your whole thing look like a boss-level enterprise product. You're welcome. Yeah, right.

They just help you and they push you into doing the right things. You designed it the right way. You have the right tools. Proxy SQL, with their private networking it's that's like money in the bank at digital ocean.com go create an account then use the promo code do unplugged big thank you to digital ocean for sponsoring the unplugged program all right so i want to talk about briefly telegrams cryptocurrency plans mostly because wait say that what yeah what yeah the telegram open network it's going to be a third generation blockchain network yeah not a first gen not a second gen west third gen third gen who gets to decide that everybody did you did you

know that kodak today announced that they're uh did you see that this is getting crazy you just you just you just put cryptocurrency or blockchain in your product name and your stock goes up 44%. Kodak is announcing a crypto coin. So yeah, the Telegram open network is coming at your face soon, Linux users. I know a bunch of you are a bunch of Telegram users. It's going to be a third generation blockchain network building on the work of previous cryptocurrencies to provide something groundbreaking. They got a white paper, which is step one when you have a cryptocurrency. You got to have a white paper.

132-page white paper that came out on Monday. They're going to kickstart a new cryptocurrency that will rapidly scale to meet the needs of its users. The wallet could launch as soon as the fourth quarter of this year with the Telegram open network open to the rest of the users in 20 freaking 19 it's a proof of stake model um which is similar to bitcoin's proof of work model my god this i bet you're gonna i bet you will see at least another 20 of these this year because the technology is open source if you've got a large user base, like if, if, if this, if Jupiter broadcasting

had the listener base of NPR, why not launch the Jupiter coin? Yeah. Oh yeah. You know, you download, you download a week's worth of episodes and you get a coin. Then you can trade amongst each other. And of course, then you have an exchange where you can convert it to other cryptocurrencies or maybe even legal tender. And, uh, there's a little bit of a skiff you know a little percentage right off the

top the telegram takes or the jb coin takes uh i mean how long until a linux distribution uh if if if if if this was if this was i mean it's just like where's the stop where's it end like you're gonna have distros that have cryptocurrencies i mean mean it's just – they're going to have 200 million grams in circulation. 4% will be held by the development team. 52% will be held by Telegram to avoid speculative trading. And the final 44% will be distributed in private and in public in sales. So will you be part of those sales, Chris? Are you going to be buying?

Are you going to be investing? That's just the thing. Like if you're going to get in on a cryptocurrency, I mean, you got to figure like this is probably going to be a semi-successful cryptocurrency. It's probably going to be a way for bot makers to make money. It's probably going to come up and down. You could probably speculate in day trade with it. The Telegram coin. With the Telegram bot that you also wrote to buy and sell telegram my goodness

so i have a question yeah uh telegram's a russian company right yeah well this is how they're going to break away from the control of the putin government well hasn't uh russia like banned a lot of cryptocurrency stuff recently no no no they're no not quite what they're doing is they're going to start regulating it which is really the stamp of approval for businesses to start using it. Well, I thought they were blocking a lot of cryptocurrency exchanges, though. happens is you get a headline like Bitcoin being blocked in China, Bitcoin being blocked in India, Bitcoin being blocked in Russia. What that translates to is the government's financial components are doing a review of how they can integrate cryptocurrencies into their fee structure. And then once they figure out how they can regulate and tax it, they turn it back on. And now all of a sudden businesses have been given a predictable model. They know how the

government's going to react to their cryptocurrency revenues and they go for it. So I actually think this is a result of the recent evaluation of the Russian government. This is sort of like this is the end result of those recent headlines. I see. It is a crazy time we live in. See, now we need Jupiter coin. How do we – let's get started on that. I know.

I know. Or Ubuntu coin or Budgie coin or Solus coin. Ask Noah could have the Ask Noah coin. Every time you call in, you get a coin. Oh, man. Noah probably doesn't want me to tell the story, but I'm going to tell it anyways just to tease the Ask Noah show that's coming up next. So Noah was cleaning out the kids' room. You know, his parents every now and then just got to go into a big purge.

And like two years ago, and his kids are young, especially two years ago, right? He gave his kids as like stocking stuffers paper Bitcoins, like not a whole Bitcoin, but like a fraction of a Bitcoin. Yes. Which were worth like $25 at the time. And so the wife and him were looking at all the different stuff that they'd gone through and they found like these, these two or three Bitcoin paper receipts. And so Noah does a little check on them and each one's now like worth $250 or something like that. And he's like, good work, kid. He's like, this is my life, man.

I just got like Bitcoin, like just hanging out all over. I got loose change in Bitcoin. That bastard. But it was a pretty funny story of, you know, you just, you get in on something early enough. So, you know, set some Bitcoin aside. Or what you should do is if you've got Litecoin, set some Litecoin aside and plan to buy Telegram coin with your Litecoin. There you go. That'll probably do it.

That'll probably do it. All right. Well, I feel like we should get into Linspire because I want to finish up the Gen 2 Challenge and I don't want to run out of time. You guys remember Linspire, right? Do you remember Linspire? I do. You might remember Lindos. Yep. Lindos, which was a common covered topic early on in the Linux Action Show. It was a commercial distribution which changed hands a few times. It started out when it became Linspire as based on Debian. And the idea was to give a familiar desktop to Windows users. It was even kind of promised to make it easy to run some Windows applications. Then later on in Linspire's history, it was rebased on Ubuntu, and it continued to try to be like a user-friendly distribution.

But eventually, it was sort of a commercial failure and it was purchased by another distribution called Zandros and then discontinued back in 2008. So this is how far back we're going. Now, I was a particularly heavy Zandros user for a small period of time because Zandros was a Debian-based distribution with out-of-the-box, like during your setup, Active Directory support. Oh, wow. And full complete integration with Crossover Office. So it associated EXEs and autoruns.infs and everything with crossover. So you could actually take the Office 2003 or whatever it was back then, the Office XP installation CD.

You could put it in the CD-ROM drive of your Linux box and insert it and the autorun installer would come up as if you would just put it in a Windows box and walk you through the complete installation of Microsoft Office which be involved in a shop that needed to be able to open up XLS files a Windows box and walk you through the complete installation of Microsoft Office, which being involved in a shop that needed to be able to open up XLS files and use Outlook with

Exchange, that was a huge feature for me. So I was a big Zandros user. And in 2008, it was kind of a bummer to see that Zandros decided that Lenspire just needed to end. Fast forward to the end of 2017, though, and a company known as PC slash Open Systems LLC announced that they had purchased Linspire and its community edition, Freespire,

and would resume development of these two Ubuntu-based distributions. Now, just in the last week, Linspire 7.0 and F FreeSpire 3.0 were released. Now, Lenspire is being sold as a commercial product, which PC slash open systems is hoping to bundle with hardware, or you can buy it. Now, FreeSpire can be downloaded today free of charge. FreeSpire is like a re-spin without all of the proprietary components of Lens buy it. Now, Free Spire can be downloaded today free of charge. Free Spire is like a respin without all of the proprietary components of Linspire. So what are those proprietary components? What do you get if you spend $799.99 USD? What do you get if you if you spend what actually works out to be $94 when all is said and done because they're going to ship you media and charge you for $10 or so for shipping. So what do you get for $95 when you download Lenspire?

I had to know. Like this distribution that's been around since the beginning of my podcast. That's a burning question. Like what do you get for $95 of an Ubuntu re-spin? So I decided to pay it so you don't have to. And I've been loading it during this show. In fact, the installation is complete. Whoa. I'm going to do a restart right now so we can kick the tires.

Right here live. Anything could happen. I got to tell you, I played around with it for about an hour before the show, too. So these are early impressions. But I played around with it for an hour before the show, and I really went into it expecting it to be complete and total shit. And was, well, first of all, if I'm giving you my complete and honest impression, I thought I was using the Plasma desktop at first. Really? It uses LightDM for the login manager. It's based on Ubuntu 16.04. It uses LightDM for the login manager.

It's based on Ubuntu 16.04. And when it booted up, I thought it was like a Plasma 5 desktop that's been reworked to remind you of the KDE 4 days. But not in like a bad way, but like, you know, in a tasteful way. And it wasn't until I opened up the terminal and looked at all the running processes that I realized that was the next thing I did, that I realized I was actually on XFCE and that I was using Thunar and it wasn't the Plasma desktop at all. So here it is right here. It's the, you get, this is a light DM login and I've already set up my user account here. So I'll log in and there's out of the box, a couple of things that you don't get on FreeSpy.

Number one is Chrome. So Chrome is the default browser out of the gate. Let me clear off. So I'm running it right now under virtualization because I didn't want to put it on my physical hardware. But, I mean, I know it's a little hard to see it all, but tell me if that doesn't look like a KDE Plasma desktop right there. Oh, yeah, I can definitely see what you're talking about. Yeah. So it threw me for a loop just a little bit. I was surprised, but then quickly impressed.

It's got a nice menu launcher. It's got a couple of things pre-bundled in that I like quite a bit. It's still shipping Pigeon. It's got VLC as the default media player. Skype is pre-installed. We're going to come back to the Click and Run store here in just a moment. There's a couple other things I was surprised by. Bleachbit is installed by default. Really? That drive wiping software. Yeah. Unet Booten is installed by default.

And VirtualBox, as well as all of the LM sensor stuff, is installed. And GDEBI, my preferred package installer on Ubuntu desktops, is installed by default. I actually think that's pretty great. Also, a very simple firewall configuration is installed by default.

I guess the best way to describe the theme is it's very Plasma, don't you think? Yeah, it is very Plasma. It's also kind of using like the Mac OS, old Mac OS X icons. It's not bad. I mean, I wouldn't call it beautiful, but it's not offensive. And it's fast, right? It's very, very fast. And it's out of the box,

Samba and NMD resolutions working. So let's talk about click and run. This is interesting. This is really interesting. It's, well, do you remember the big thing about click and run back in the day was it was the first Linux app store. Right the day was it was the first Linux app store.

Right. And it was even the first Linux app store that supported payments. That was the huge thing about Click and Run. And I was really curious to see if it had held up, if it was still populated, if they had current applications. Yeah, has it just wandered off into the weeds? And what is Lenspire without click and run? Right. Yeah, that's how much of this,

is it Lenspire in name only or is it really a continuation of this noble lineage? Right. So I wanted to find out and that was, well, I was surprised by what I discovered, but it actually kind of makes sense. I'll tell you about it here in just a second, but first let me mention Linux Academy.

Linuxacademy.com slash unplugged. Go there and sign up and get a free seven-day trial. It's a platform to learn more about Linux, a full-featured training library with everything you need to know to learn. Everything you need to know, everything you need to learn new skills or advance your career if you're ready to kind of move forward. I think probably my favorite feature about Linux Academy would be the learning paths because you get content that has been specifically engineered by their instructors for specific career tracks. And then as you go along this track, they'll spin up

like virtual cloud servers for you at SSHN and use these things really in production. They've got hands-on scenario-based labs to give you experience on real servers. They have practice exams and quizzes to help you prepare for certifications, so that way you can really take this stuff and apply it. And if you ever get stuck, they've got human beings that can help you prepare for certifications, so that way you can really take this stuff and apply it. And if you ever get stuck, they've got human beings that can help you, real instructors that are standing by, full-time people on Linux Academy staff to help you. That's something that all of these other training sites

that have Linux as a feature can't match. Now, if you go to linuxacademy.com slash unplugged, you can sign up for a free seven day trial so you can get a taste of what their content is how the platform works and the big thing that i figured out within the first 24 hours of signing up for linux academy was things that were nebulous as like god one day i'd like to figure out how to even try to learn this thing. Things that were like categorizes that in my brain went to, oh, if I go to Linux Academy and spend four hours or six hours, I can understand how this entire thing works now. That is such a huge shift. And it's so empowering because even when

you don't have a specific thing you need to learn, you can go there and you can say, well, I got two hours. Right. That's sometimes that's the hardest thing. You have to learn how to learn. They've done a huge amount of that upfront work for you. You can just sit down and concentrate on actually learning. And then they give you a bunch of great study tools and lesson audio and personal notebooks that you can use offline. And they have iOS and Android

apps to learn on the go. It's a great combo. LinuxAcademy.com slash unplugged. Big thank you to Linux Academy for sponsoring the Unplugged program. LinuxAcademy.com slash unplugged. Big thank you, Linux Academy, for sponsoring the Unplugged program. Linuxacademy.com slash unplugged. All right, Mr. West, before we get back to the freaking Linspire debacle that I went down, the rabbit hole of Linspire, how is the Gen 2 challenge going over there? It's going quite well.

Do you think we're getting near a graphical environment? Oh, yeah. Really? Yes. We've got Wayland built. We've got Sway built. Wayland's there, yep. You've got, now, we don't have a completely functional boot system, or we do have a booting system.

I can't remember. It is. Yeah, it will boot. Actually, we're rebooting right now. Oh! All right, okay. Well, so before we get there, before we wrap up the Gen 2 challenge completely, let me just finish off my thoughts on Linspire here. So when I launched the Click and Run store, I was greeted with GNOME software.

The Click and Run store. Yeah, like the defining feature of Linspire. What? Has been replaced with GNOME software. Now, you know, I got to say, it kind of makes sense. It kind of does make sense. If you were going to relaunch Lenspire today, you would probably do this. And if you look at the applications that they've featured here, hot damn.

that they've featured here? Hot damn. MailSpring, Hiri, Brave, Wavebox, Atom, VLC,

and LXD right here on Spotify as the featured application. Hang on a minute. Those are just the featured applications in the Ubuntu software center. They haven't featured those at all. No, no, no.

Oh, yeah. No, and I don't mean to imply that... Can I tell you who produces that list of featured applications? But wouldn't you... I mean, I guess this is the benefit of being based on Ubuntu, but if you're going to... This, to me, seems like the obvious way. If you're going to launch Lenspire today, why bother with a click-and-run store? Why wouldn't you just ship this?

Okay, now tell us, Wimpy. Who does? Me and Popey. Well, good job, sir. Excellent work. So how do you feel, then, about them sort of featuring your work? That's better than I expected. That's absolutely fine, right? They're rebasing on Ubuntu.

They're taking advantage of lots of the underlying technologies. That's absolutely fine. But if you open GNome software on any of the ubuntu derivatives that's what you see today i think i you know i was expecting i was expecting the old click and run i was expecting like the purchasing infrastructure they had set up uh and when i launched it i went oh yeah that's expected to be out of out of place or out of touch well i was disappointed but then i was actually, that's exactly what they should be doing. Yes.

Well, good picks, by the way. Good picks, Wimpy, by the way. I think that's Open Arena is also down here in Recommended Games. Frozen Bubble, Neverball, good stuff. So it is, in a way, a shadow of its former self. It is not – I haven't got a chance to shadow of its former self. It is not, I haven't got a chance to try out the wine integration that they supposedly brought in from like there's Andros heritage,

which does sound actually kind of interesting in a way. It is a shadow of its former self. It is an Ubuntu respin, but then at the same time, it does offer something unique. When I bought this for $80, $95, all said and done, I sent them an email. And I said, hey, I'd like to just have an ISO instead. Can I get an ISO today?

And an actual person who speaks English responded to me and gave me here's a prompt way. Here's a 64-bit link. Here's a 32-bit link. Have at it. Wow. Their support aspect of it is legitimate. It is something that they're actually living up to. There are people responding because I sent an email to the support channel. They're also making some interesting package choices. This is a very nice implementation of XFCE. I don't think it would hold up on a high DPI setup, but on a standard DPI setup, this has got to be one of the cleanest, simplest,

most modern implementations I've ever seen of XFCE. It does seem like a desktop that, especially, I could just take someone who had used a computer before and plop them down there and they would probably get along just fine. They're doing a bunch of other things that I think are kind of interesting. So by default, they are

turning on pre-linking and they're pre-linking a bunch of libraries to try to improve performance. That's a default Ubuntu feature. I was just going to say, I don't know if that's a default ubuntu i was just gonna say i don't know if a bunch of okay there you go um and they also have samba and uh an nmbd pre-running and set up out of the gate they've got um clam antivirus and fresh clam which we can't do in official ubuntu flavors because you're not allowed to ship with any running services right and they've got

clam and fresh clam um running in the background so you've got essentially out of the box antivirus again windows users seem to care about that yes more so it is like a you know like a tricycle for windows users coming over to the linux world there's also a process and a user called whoopsie is this uh what is what what is whoopsie i don't that's whoopsie daisy is that the uh is that a bug reporter yeah it's the bug reporter for contrapsia yeah god my current my current boss wrote whoopsie daisy my uh my my uh my years on arch have um have colored my perception of things like this but i understand why they're there. Also, there's a few other default tweaks.

Default applications have been changed. Obviously, Chrome is in here. Skype's installed out of the box. GDebi, Bleachbit. So it is, in a lot of ways, it is a better out-of-the-box Windows replacement than stock Ubuntu. If you expect your computer to work like a Windows system. Is it not Zubuntu with a few applications pre-installed that you can't redistribute legally? Yes, that is exactly 100% what it is. With Chrome, Codexx and other things. But I think it would be naive to say there isn't a market for that. That stuff you're not allowed to distribute?

There's not a market for it, no. I'm just saying you could do the same thing with Zubuntu because you could install Zubuntu, open the software center, and install all of those applications. Right, but there's something about it being, I think there's something about the idea of it being a prepackaged solution. So when you think about the way you get Linspire, you don't even get an ISO. You go spend $95, and what you get is a thank you email saying that your package is on its way. It's really a story about trying to understand the perspectives and goals of the people who are behind them. Yeah, and it's not my goal. That's not my perspective. But, yeah, what you're basically getting is you're getting Chrome. You're getting Thunderbird with Exchange and Google Sync plugins installed.

You're getting VLC, Clam AV. You're getting.NET Core support, XFS. I don't realize. I don't know why they outlined that. Intrusion detection, Bleachbit. These are the other things. And ICE SSB are the main things that they say are included with Linspire over traditional Linux, a.k.a. Ubuntu. And you also get 12 months of email and phone support with that.

And that's what your money is really buying right it's that support i suppose or maybe the ability to distribute some of that software and then it's based on lts so it's supported until um 2025 is it that's what they say you know yeah how they're doing that also apparently if you're a business they'll spin you custom isos and do outside setup yep yep and they have a cloud version as well that you can buy which is actually cheaper than the desktop version i mean i based on this is based on 1604 yes sir Yes, sir. Yeah. So how are they doing support until 2025? Well, how long is 1604 supported?

Five years. Hmm. Hmm. I mean, it does say until 2025. It says Free Spire is supported until 2021. And Lin Spire is supported until 2025. Okay. Good luck with that then yeah um 2022 is going to be real tough it's an interesting it's an obvious play towards a completely different

market than anybody that would be listening to the show or me uh and um that's kind of why i wanted to try it is when something like this comes along, when Linspire comes along again and it's like what makes it worth $95? I'd also be interested to meet someone who had found it. Oh, I'd heard my grandson had told me I really needed to get that Linux and they ended up finding this. I wonder if it's not more about the story that you're able to tell a potential OEM partner. This is Linspire. potential OEM partner. This is Linspire. You go into the heritage, you go into the fact that it's got wine sort of baked in, which is an aspect I admittedly did not get into in this review, which is just barely a review. It's more of like a first look. And so you have the story of a Linspire

heritage, Windows support. We ship it with Chrome. We ship it with the NVIDIA binaries. We ship it with Thunderbird that has Exchange support. it's a story that you could tell an oem that maybe is more appealing than a free loving all gpl software distro i don't know or at least something they can understand a little bit more right yeah but uh we'll see where it goes so we're we're checking in at the beginning of 2018 they just have their new version 7.0 inspire release we'll see where it goes for the beginning of 2018. They just had their new version 7.0 Lenspire release. We'll see where it goes for the rest of 2018, I suppose. Remember, one of the only benefits when it comes to having non-free software included is they can actually bundle it in a box in a store and sell it. Yeah, or on a machine, which I think is what they plan to do.

So what do you think? Replacing the studio machines? We're going all Lenspire? 100%. You've been talking it up all day. It's supported until 2025, so it's obvious. Yeah, install once, and then, I mean, will there even be JB by then? Who knows?

Finally. Finally. Actually laughing out loud. I give them credit for responding to my support email requests and actually giving some thought to some applications to bundle with it. We'll see where they go. I'd be curious. All right, Mr. West.

Are you ready, sir? Are you ready, Mr. West? I'm ready. Perhaps the worst idea happened when I went to New York. I noticed you guys didn't do a Gen 2 Challenge check-in last week. I see how that is. I see you save it for me when I'm around, because we could have wrapped this up last week. Well, you've been so fascinated by the whole affair, I didn't want to deprive you.

So how's it going? Sort of like a homecoming. So when I checked in last during the show, you were rebooting. Yep. We are live in Sway. What? Really? You've gotten to graphical mode.

Yes, sir. Do we have a Skycam? Let's see here. We do have a Skycam. You only see this. Holy crap! It doesn't look like much. It hasn't been super configured yet.

Look at that. There it is. There we can almost see it. There it is. That is totally boring and a total... It may be the most boring thing I've ever seen. Yeah, that is really boring. So this is Sway.

Yeah. On Wayland. Not bad. Yeah, that is really boring. So this is Sway. Yeah. On Wayland. Not bad. No X anywhere. Not bad. No anti-aliasing either. No, no anti-aliasing. Why would you want that? So that is a full Gen 2 system boot up right there with Sway. You did it.

You did it. Wow. Good job, Wes. I don't know if it was worth it, but so what was that? Five episodes You did it? Wow. Yeah. Up your shaft. Good job, Wes. I don't know if it was worth it, but so what was that, five episodes? It took five weeks of building software? On and off, anyway. That's not bad, really.

It's a virtual machine. So you probably, if you would have given it a good solid three and a half hours, you could have gotten it. Oh, yeah, definitely. Plus, a lot of that was trying to do the show and read through the handbook, which had been years since I'd read through. So there was some of that. Now I think i think yeah give me an hour and a half and a fast machine we'll be we'll be done we've had a lot of fun with gen 2 over the gen 2 challenge um but wes and i were discussing this and we realized we actually did walk away with a bit of a lesson from this whole thing because because the sort of the the ongoing joke was what good is gen 2 for what's the point of gen 2 even now in 2018 do you really need these

optimizations that you might be able to get when you build your own software what's the damn point of gen 2 and um sort of perfectly on january 6 a uh a great post, a science project, really, make the 486 great again, running modern Linux on an ancient 486 PC. This PC, which was released in 1989, which, fun fact, before the Meltdown problem. Right. Before speculative execution. And this is about as far back as you can go and still have actual genuine kernel support. But just because the Linux kernel supports the 486 processor doesn't mean that any distribution

out there and its packages do. And there was only one system that supported... Yeah, when you're in a situation like this, where do you turn, right? There's only one. There's only one. Gen 2. And Gen 2 was perfect because the issue with modern Linux distributions like Debian or Ubuntu or Arch is that they distribute binary packages,

which we all think is great, but when you need something like a 486, while it's theoretically supported by the modern Linux kernel, the distribution packages do not support it. Debian dropped support for 586 32-bit CPUs in 2016. The oldest supported x86 CPU by Debian is

the 686, which was released in 95, which is when speculative execution started coming along. So you don't want that. No. But the thing about Gen 2 is you can freaking build the packages yourself. And you can install Linux on this crazy, esoteric edge case that most people would never even think of. And if you think about it, that's sort of the beautiful thing about Linux itself.

It's this general purpose technology platform that brings life to devices and enables technology in ways we never even considered before. Right. I think there's this, you know, I'm sure a lot of people are like asking why. Why would you do this? But there's almost there's a sort of that that's irrelevant because, like you say, it is this general purpose. And a lot of interesting things happen when you don't really ask why. And you just sort of are open to exploration. Nothing else could do this.

I mean, some some BSDs, but in the Linux landscape and in the, you know, nothing else could do this. I mean, some BSDs. But in the Linux landscape, and in the, you know... Nothing useful could do this. Nothing that you would want to actually use, and could connect out to the internet, and clone a Git repo, and install Python 3.63, could do this. It has to be Linux.

And Gentoo is one of the few Linuxes that actually could make it possible. Right. You don't have to be a giant corporation who has manpower to build your own distribution or custom compile everything. You have a framework that's been developed over years to make it easy for you to do it. What's great is it takes about 11 minutes for boot up. Just have a cup of tea. You'll come back. It'll be up. They hooked up a Sound Blaster 16. Oh, nice.

And it took a couple of minutes for the music playback to start working. It also took a couple of tea. You'll come back. It'll be up. They hooked up a Sound Blaster 16. Oh, nice! And it took a couple of minutes for the music playback to start working. It also took a couple of minutes for SSH to connect in. And it took about only three minutes to clone a Git repo. And shutdown took about five and a half minutes to shut down.

That's incredible. The whole post goes through how they got uh linux 4.14.8 running on this like a brand's making new kernel too like that right yeah it's just really remarkable it really is so cool they used an old version of damn small linux as well to try to uh to mess around and this you know it's sort of the perfect conclusion to the Gentoo challenge, because it does show you what is Gentoo good for. And it's good for people that are doing things you've never even thought of. Yeah, absolutely. I still think it's a fun playground. I'm going to leave this here for a while, at least just to play with Sway and maybe some other things. Also, just Emerge is great. It's really fun to get to spend a little time especially

you know like i i love linux i play with linux but i also get all of my work done on linux and so this was a nice reminder that like the internals are fun configuring a kernel is fun really getting to know your system i also think like if i was doing a bunch of linux development it might be a system that i would really like to be able to just customize play and have access to all these tweakable sources right there. Beard chimes in with the fact that Slackware can still do high-five 86. Damn it, Beard.

Go check out beard at rec.net. I hear that son of a bitch is streaming more than ever. Mr. AtWestPain right there on the Twitter, and check him out on the new rebooted TechSnap, as well as me. I'm at ChrisLAS. Get more wimpy at the Ubuntu podcast and join our subreddit

at linuxunplugged.reddit.com. This year's show is live on Tuesdays over at jblive.tv, followed now by the Ask Noah program. So it's a whole afternoon slash evening slash insert local time of Linux. If you join our virtual lug,

you can also take advantage of that in the Ask Noah program. So, geez, it's never been better to join us over at JBLive.tv for quite the live experience. Thanks for being here, and we'll see you right back here next Tuesday! Get it out of here. Oh!

Thank you, Virtual Lug. You guys are great. Now we just got to pick a title, and I think we're done. I think we're done. It was a fun show. It was a fun show. I enjoyed the hell out of that.

Yeah. Enjoyed the hell out of it. So one thing... So are you still going to get the install media for linspire in the mail is that still okay good that's almost a trophy i'm gonna follow up when it comes expensive usb stick ever it's probably the bare minimum too it's like just four gigs that could be a title most expensive usb stick ever most expensive linux just that someone that's that there There is the show title right there. What about most expensive Linux distro ever?

Because it really is. I don't know of a more expensive... Where else can you spend $95 on a distro? What's Oracle charging these days? $5 more and you can get Windows 10. Wow. Most expensive Linux distro ever is very long. Is there a tighter way

to say that? That'll do. Most expensive Linux?ro ever is very long. Is there a tighter way to say that? Most expensive Linux? That'll do. Yeah, most expensive Linux. I almost feel like it's got to be long. I don't know. Long and complicated. Breaking the bank.

Yeah. Green light for Linux. You could just do Linux and a bunch of dollar signs. So, hey, Beer, what do I do? Is there a scene for Ask Noah? What do I do when it's Ask Noah time? you turn off the stream and noah picks it up oh that's right what oh hey bang suggests working discord oh there we go so hold on you've done the same you're telling me between between wes noah and beard you uh i guess last week was kind of

crazy there we go martin that's true i I forgot about that. That was crazy. All right. I understand. I thought we would have had this shit fixed by now. It's cool. Well, you were gone, so we didn't have to do anything. If only there was some sort of remote login system on the OBS system that Noah was integrated with where he could just connect in. Hey, I offered to both you goofballs multiple times.

I'm a goofball now. Just give me permission, and I'll make it happen. I'm a goofball now! You always have been. Just give me permission, just give me permission, and I'll make it happen. I'm a goof, what do you mean? How do you not have permission? I installed your remote. Not, not, not, like verbal permission. Like, is it okay that I go and screw with your broadcasting machine? Yeah, it's good.

It'd be good, actually. I mean, could you just solve problems for me? It's gonna happen. And he's gonna blame you anyway, so. That's alright. So we do have to, so I should probably, we should probably interrupt the stream soon, so that way there's time for YouTube to reset. Permissions aren't't granular enough.

Hey, so if people want to hang out in mumble for Ask Noah, where should they go? Like not the best week of that because I have a guest coming on. Oh, right, right. I'll tell you what. If you guys hang out in there and either he comes in late because I know he's on a call with a customer right now. If he comes in late or if we wrap up, I'll jump back and mumble. So what is that? Does that mean stay here, or does that mean...

Are you going to be sending a feed into the mumble room? Can they hear the show, or do they got to still go... God damn it, Noah. Yeah, sorry. Hey, listen, we send a feed to TuneIn, we send a feed to GosnoShow.com, we send a feed to JBLive.tv, we send a feed to KQQRadio.com. There's like a billion ways to do this

You can't escape the show Oh, yeah Alright, alright Good enough, Noah