LINUX Unplugged - Episode 237: One Ping Only | LUP 237

Episode Date: February 21, 2018

Canonical’s Ubuntu desktop head and their VP of Product Development join us to chat about the new proposed data collection system they want to build into Ubuntu 18.04 & Cassidy from System76 and Elementary OS join us to talk about their efforts to turn drive encryption on by default.Plus a BIG announcement at the end of the show!

You might be familiar with Wine, but are you familiar with Twine? It emulates OS2 binaries the same way that Wine can emulate Windows binary. It's named such to continue the fine tradition of programmers producing good code and bad product names. And it comes from the one, the only, Ryan C. Gordon, a.k.a. Iculus. So you know it actually might be a bit legitimate. He just posted this to his patrons on his Patreon page. And Wes, good news. They've got Unreal Tournament.

Oh boy! Of all the things, right? That's what he goes with. But he's pretty fired up about it. He actually says this is a big deal. And Ryan does have quite a bit of experience porting games and 3D applications over to the Linux desktop. And, you know, I got to be honest, this does speak to me a little bit at a deep nerd level, not because I'm planning to use OS 2 for anything, but in a way, like, you hate to see this stuff die. And when it's all digital, like, we have the means to preserve this stuff, and games and whatnot are art.

That is definitely true. Even if you don't care about any of that, it's kind of just a fascinating read. He dives into a bunch of details about the progress he's made so far, why it's difficult, and why it might not be that difficult overall. Yeah, so I expect any week now, Popey will be taking the Twine Challenge

and running everything on his desktop through an OS2 emulator. I, hang on. Wait, what? OS2? Yeah, it's an OS2 emulator yeah os2 yeah you want to take the challenge poppy i can't get my head around this wimpy was more of an os2 guy than i was yeah i've got arcanoe on really ink pads yeah you were a big os2 fan eh wimpy well what do you say yeah there you go but you take the challenge you take the challenge. You take it. You take it.

I'll give it a go. I switched from OS 2 to Linux. There you go. There you go. And now you can switch back. This is Linux Unplugged, episode 237 for February 20th, 2018. Oh, welcome to Linux Unplugged, your weekly Linux talk show this week that's so packed with goodness. Well, we're going to give you an extra side. My name is Chris. My name is Wes. It's going to be a side of announcement. We'll tell you more about that in just a little bit. But first, this week, we'll cover some community news. We'll tell you more about that in just a little bit.

But first, this week, we'll cover some community news. The good folks over at KDE just got a surprise donation from the Pineapple Fund. We'll tell you about that. Our friends over at Canonical want to know a little bit more about how your computer's set up. So we'll talk directly to the horse's mouth about that. I do love the horse's mouth. I always think of Mr. Ed. That's right.

With the peanut butter. Oh, so tasty. And then later on, our good friends over at Elementary OS and System76 working on Pop! OS are doing something that I think a lot of you are going to agree with. They're turning on disk encryption by default. But this isn't a simple implementation. And there's a lot of user challenges to work through and edge cases that have to be thought through. So we'll talk to them about turning on disk encryption by default when you install elementary OS or Pop! OS in the near future. Gnome's got a new tool to check on your system. A big bogus Linux vulnerability is getting all of the attention this week. OpenStreetMaps has woes. And then we're going to wrap it all up with that side. It's going to be a tasty side, maybe a berry flavor. It's an announcement here at the network. Something big on the build-up to scale is coming back to Jupiter Broadcasting.

You got to stay tuned. You got to listen to find out that. You know it. Toasty, tasty little morsel. You know the drill, Wes. You know the drill. So, Wes, before we go any further, it is our duty to bring in that virtual lug. Time-appropriate greetings, Mumble Room.

What's up? Hello. Oh, hello. All right. right so how many of you are using the mumble snap today just say i all right all right hi sure whoa impressive dude i'm all of a sudden i'm having i'm having fomo i'm just feeling like i should be i should be catching up wow all right we'll talk about production testing we're gonna put it through its paces this week. All right. Well, let's start with a little bit of good news. The KDE project is extremely pleased to announce that they have received 200,000 U.S. greenback donations from the Pineapple Fund. their cause to make free software accessible to everyone on all platforms, which is good because I was pretty convinced until they made that statement that they were going to use that money to fund proprietary software.

So I'm pretty glad they made that clarification. Close call. Yeah. The money is going to help them realize their vision of creating a world in which everyone has control over their digital life and enjoys freedom and privacy. Well, apparently they're going to buy out Apple and Google. And I think this is great. You know, the Pineapple Fund says that KDE is a necessary community project, which just has a general benefit to the public and advances the use of free software on all platforms. So that's why

they were all in. $200,000. The Pineapple Fund has been busy recently contributing money. I don't know a lot about the Pineapple Fund, but I need to do some more digging. I did a little bit of reading, so I have a rough idea, but is anybody kind of familiar with Pineapple Fund before I run my mouth about it? Anybody want to save me and just eloquently describe in a few short, beautiful sentences? Eloquently. What do you think, producer Michael? What do you think? You got a shot? Well, I mean, it's just like, it's a bitcoin based uh philanthropist basically right and when they came to the free software foundation they actually donated bitcoin to the free software foundation open bsd is one of the beneficiaries

but in this case uh for kd i i believe they donated cash they converted it to cash cash yeah uh yeah pretty interesting pretty interesting so you can find it all out. They've raised $53 million and donated it to 58 different charities so far. I like that. I think that's pretty cool. I think that's a great use of cryptocurrency too. You know what I mean? And if you donate now and then they can use those funds down the road, well, today as we record, Bitcoin is back up to $11,000 probably because of manipulation via Popey's huge wealth.

That guy. I know. But it's going to a good cause. Now you can feel good about that and not just feel more poor. Yeah, exactly. Thank you. Thanks to Popey really. I think that might be Mr. Dustin Kirkland you hear there coming in a bit. So let's talk to Dustin and Will Cook.

They're both joining us from Canonical. They're both joining us from Canonical, and you may have heard of an email that Will sent out to the mailing list recently over for the Ubuntu development, in which he says that they're looking at how to focus future resources around engineering and realized, you know, we could use some information, some data, if you will. Like what version of Ubuntu people are installing, if they have a network connection, the type of CPU that they have, how much RAM, how did they lay out their disks, what packages did they install, what GPU do they have, who built their computer, these kinds of things that they don't actually currently collect. But whenever you start talking about collecting additional data from users, it causes quite a bit of reaction. So I thought instead of us just rampant

speculation style here on the old show, but that was going to be so much fun. Dude, I'm happy to do it. Maybe we'll just save that later. But first, we'll get the information from Dustin and Will because they're in this thread. And this email came from Will Cook. So guys, welcome to the show. And Will, why don't we start with you and kind of let's hear your version of what you guys are proposing? Sure. So I mean, as you said, data-driven development. This is what we're all about. We need to know where we should be focusing our efforts, what things people like, what things people use. And, you know, they should get the lion's share of our engineering efforts so that we can fix the bugs that are most important to those people.

You know, when I first saw this, I had a couple of different reactions. My first reaction was, oh, people aren't going to like this. But my second reaction is, you weren't collecting this already? You're not already collecting this information? That seems like information that would have been collected from day one. Well, yeah, so, you know, from day one, we've always had an app port running, which is the thing that pops up and says something went wrong. Would you like to report an error about it?

That's always been there. PopCon was there for a little while. PopCon's been in Debian since forever. But the raw data about what sort of hardware that we're running on, yeah, we haven't ever gathered that. So the thing that you're also suggesting – well, actually, I have a follow-up question to that. The one metric I think that's probably getting the most strong reaction would be location information.

What kind of specific location information will you be collecting? Well, so we talked about this internally before we sent the email, and we decided that it would be useful to everybody to know where people are in the world. If we find out that 90% of our users are based in India, let's say, then we need to be focusing on the translations for India. If we find out that everybody is in the U.S., then, you know, we need to be making sure that the English translations are up to date. We're not gathering IP address information.

The location will be the location that the user chooses at login. So, you know, there's no sort of nefarious snooping on where we think you are. This is purely you tell us you're in this country. We take that on face value, and that's what we record. And so it's not tracked to like a specific user and location so you wouldn't necessarily get um chris f in arlington washington when you look back at the metrics no it's like purely country level you know literally top top level country level information so yeah okay um and then the other thing so you mentioned it really in there quickly as PopCon. PopCon is a tool, if I'm correct, that's sort of monitoring the user's packages that they install to give you guys over a canonical and aggregate overview of the most popular packages.

The idea there, I suppose, would be, well, if we have an idea of what the most popular packages are, then we know where to dedicate patch time, backporting time, resource development time, integration time. Is that what PopCon's about? Exactly, yeah. And we have the archives, and people hit the archives in order to get packages. But let's say that we could look at the web logs on those servers, which we don't, but if we could do, we could see that people were installing a specific package. A lot of people were installing a specific package. That doesn't tell us whether they install it once and then uninstall it, or they install it and they use it every day, or they install it and they use it once a year. That's the sort of information that PopCon gives us. And with that information, we can look at promoting packages that are in universe, which is the lowest level of support that we offer, up to main, which is something that our security team get involved in.

So if everybody's installing a specific package from universe, they're using it every day, then we can look at promoting that domain. And then the security team and whoever it is that's maintaining that package will spend or will be able to spend a lot more time making sure that security bugs are fixed, making sure that the latest versions are packaged, keeping that up to date for everybody. So, yeah, that's extremely useful information for Dustin, but Will, one of my kind of bigger picture questions I have for you is the flip side of this is you've also stated that you plan to make the data public. Wouldn't that also mean that you plan to reveal exactly, roughly, pretty damn close, how many Ubuntu installations there are, how many people are using Dell laptops versus an Ensureware laptop? Like, isn't this going to result in a lot of speculation being answered? Because then you'll have real numbers. People have, like, well, Ubuntu has X amount of users, and there's never really been a big public number released about that. It's been—well, I'll jump in here, actually, at this point.

Yeah, I think that's exactly right. And everything that we've put out so far has been uh our best guess interpolation on roughly how many users uh have downloaded the iso from the ubuntu.com mirror not the mirror run by your local university because you know obviously we don't we we don't we can't count uh package updates or ISO downloads from mirrors, for instance. So in a way, yes, there will be a lot more information available about the general usage of Ubuntu, how and where. I actually hope that there's some interesting conclusions that can be drawn by people outside of Canonical. conclusions that can be drawn by people outside of Canonical. I often look at the stats that are published by Docker Hub. If you go to, you hit Docker's API, you can see pulls of the Ubuntu image or the CentOS image or the Debian image or the Mongo or the MySQL image. And I think part of

that is, you know, obviously those are statistics that were anonymously gathered by your usage of the Docker binary fetching an image from Docker Hub. But the fact that that information is also available for others to consume and graph and plot and interpolate is, I think, that's part of the important social exchange. That is an interesting idea. So I want to ask you a couple of specifics about that really. So what you're really talking about is essentially making all this data public and then making JSON feeds or some sort of queryable feed available so people can pragmatically generate graphs. That brings me to the infrastructure question. All of this I'm on board with it. In fact, like I said, it kind of seems like it should have been done from day one. The part that I take pause with is the backend

implementation of storing this data and verifying that it is being abstracted away from user identifiable information. How is that being put together? Because it seems like we're late in the 1804 game right now for that to be built, but I'm only looking at it from the outside. Sure. So that backend infrastructure is not yet implemented. And in fact, right now we've put this out on the Ubuntu Devel list. We'll post it to the Ubuntu Devel list, which is where we discuss proposals such as this. Even if we started transmitting that information and just sent it to a dev null, you know, nothing to catch it just yet, that would be okay in that eventually we will have that infrastructure in place and set up. Of course, we're based in Europe and have lots of users in Europe. And everybody knows the GDPR

requirements come into play this year. And so Canonical as a company, as a business, we're under the regulation of the EU and we're taking this very seriously. So there should be every bit of confidence here that this data will be dealt with as anonymously as possible. And not just because we feel that we owe that to the free and open source community, but also because it's EU law, frankly, at this point. Yeah, okay. I mean, that, yeah, they, I completely forgot about the new rules coming into place, and that does make sense. So my question then, I guess I go from that to, and I'm not sure if this is maybe a Will question or a Dustin question, but let's assume this all gets worked out, stuff gets built in, the option in the installer is there where people can uncheck it.

How does it affect distributions that are based on Ubuntu that are maybe using the Ubiquiti installer? Sure. So I will throw a spotlight on that first point. This will be as easy to disable on any machine as clicking one box to uncheck. And that disables all diagnostic information. So what we'll describe, there's basically three sets of information. One is a set of pretty generic statistics about a machine. How many disks, how many network cards, what sort of CPU. What that enables us to do is to ensure that the Ubuntu experience is optimized for the sort of moving target of what does the system hardware that Ubuntu is running on generally look like, where are the outliers, where's the sort of center of gravity.

That bit of information is more or less a one-shot, here's the hardware profile. Can we underscore that for a second? Because that was something that wasn't totally clear to me. Because the way it's sort of worded in the email to the mailing list is it sort of sounds like when I think of user collection metrics, I think of Windows 10 telemetry, and I think of almost constantly sending, as I use my computer, sending back information. But with the exception of package installations, it's essentially a one-shot data collection. Is that accurate? That's right. So where'd this all come from was

we were looking at the Ubuntu installer and we were debating as to whether some of the installation options made sense anymore. Does anyone, there was a checkbox at the very beginning which says automatically download updates while installing, which I always check because sure, I want, when I'm done installing, I want to have all the updates. And so I asked the team, hey, do people check that box or not? I'm curious. Can we just get rid of that box and automatically download updates while installing? And as it turns out, we don't know.

We don't know how many people check the box that says install the MP3. Yes, I want MP3s to work on my Ubuntu machine. We actually don't know how many people opt to encrypt their hard disk. I'm really keen to hear from the elementary OS guys about their disk encryption plans. It's sort of a place where I geek out about. We didn't actually know. And at that point, we started looking at just the installer and being able to know what does the average Ubuntu user select as their base set of installation options. Are there some options we could just get rid of because they just don't make sense anymore?

And in doing so, we combine that effort with another set of questions we had around what desktop apps are installed on the most Ubuntu machines, as well as what are the buggiest apps in the Ubuntu archive? And we realized all of this really comes together in a general send diagnostics or don't option that we see in every operating system, be it Windows or Android or Mac. We'd like to do that tastefully, and we will do that tastefully. And I think the fact that we're offering to share that information publicly hopefully makes it valuable to the average Ubuntu user.

The average Ubuntu user will see a better Ubuntu experience. Sure. I mean, it just seems like it just clearly gives you a better path to follow when you can see, oh, look, everybody's uninstalling Thunderbird. It's just Thunderbird's getting removed from almost every system. And I go back to something we covered this week in Linux Action News, is 1804 is going to feature a minimal install option, which removes like 80 packages, including Rhythmbox and Thunderbird and a few others that I don't generally use. And of course, Canonical would have no way of

knowing if anybody's using that unless they turn something like this on. And you can see what options people are doing during installation. But, Dustin, I just want to underscore and make it super crazy clear for everybody listening because I think this is a really important point. The only ongoing data collection, if somebody checks this box, is if an app crashes and it will submit the crash in the background now. That's right. And if package states change and then those statistics will get submitted.

That's the only ongoing collection. That's right. So when a package crashes, AppOrt catches that crash and would send Canonical a crash report. And Will can talk about how we've used that, how that has helped identify some pretty major breakages in Ubuntu, and we've been able to stave that off early. People who enable the proposed repository will start catching those packages if you have proposed, and then we cannot roll out that buggy fix to the masses of millions of Ubuntu users. So yes, that would be ongoing.

The other one would be a periodic, and I don't know what the period is, I don't know if it's daily or weekly, but think on the order of daily or weekly, anonymous submission of the packages installed on the system. So that's PopCon. PopCon is what we're going to use, which has been in Debian for ages. We've been using PopCon, but we suspect that the number of users who go out of their way to enable PopCon on Ubuntu is probably less than 5%. And so it's not very representative. And you know who does enable it? Geeks like you and me. Probably not the Ubuntu user at large who's never heard of PopCon. So our statistical bias there is quite high. So what do you know? Vim and Emacs are super high on the PopCon statistics list. Meanwhile,

VLC is relatively low. Who would have thought? Yeah. So to your point about using that data to catch stuff, Will, is that sort of, to Will here, is that sort of this, is that sort of Dustin being polite and saying this one of the reasons why we're not shipping Wayland in 1804 is because of this data we've collected with the app crashes? Yeah, absolutely. If you go to errors.ubuntu.com, then you can see the sort of crash reports that we're getting in there. And, you know, at the top of that list are the buggiest applications. And that is what we look at every day. And those are the bugs that we focus our efforts on.

So, yeah, absolutely. This is invaluable information for our team. Look at that big, huge jump right there. Oh, Wayland. That's great. Yeah, I don't think I've ever actually looked at the graph there at errors.ubuntu.com. That is pretty cool. So what's next?

This is exactly – Go ahead, Dustin. Eras.ubuntu.com is exactly the sort of information that we make public, that we collect and we make public. And I think this is – we're not hiding what we're doing with this information. We're trying to make Ubuntu better by studying graphs like this. trying to make Ubuntu better by studying graphs like this. So this is obviously pretty important to get into 18.04 because that's the next big one that people are going to be using for five years. So what's the next functional step?

You guys are collecting feedback. Do you start actually like building out the code on the client side? Do you start looking at mocking up ways for users to possibly disable this after install? Yeah, the mock-ups are public. In that same thread that Will started on Ubuntu Devel, Canonical's lead UI UX designer, Matthew Paul Thomas, replied with a publicly visible Google Doc, which is the design doc for the overall Ubuntu installer.

It's 40 or 50 pages long, but if you control F, search in there for diagnostics, you'll land somewhere in the middle of that document, and you can see the rough mock-ups from our UI UX team as to what the wording will look like, where it will fit into the flow of installing Ubuntu, and how it's enabled and disabled. So I guess I just, I have, well, one piece of advice, if I could for a moment, if I could be so brave, is to make it clear that if there's some way to keep it short but make it clear that it's not this crazy ongoing metric collection, I think that's what people are worried about. But the question, I guess, that I think of from an end user perspective is, so say I go buy a Dell Sputnik XPS 13. I would assume that Dell is probably going to turn this on by default, and I don't go through that installation process as an OEM customer.

What is going to be my opt-out option in that scenario, and how likely is that feature to ship? Will, you want to talk a little bit about how this will be enabled, disabled after the fact in the system center? want to talk a little bit about how this will be enabled disabled after the fact in the system center sure sure so yeah you go to uh the gnome control center gnome settings and in there there's a privacy tab or option down the left hand side uh and in there are all the usual privacy stuff which exists today and there will be some extra ones in there uh we're still working through the designs as dustin said we're working with design on how granular we get at that point um do we allow people to individually toggle the apple reporting and the um and the popcorn results or is that going to be confusing to the

average joe and it should just be on or off yeah these are decisions which which need to be made but those um those settings will exist. They will exist on day one, and they'll be there to switch on and off as you choose. Right. So the Apple-based approach would be the binary, send statistics or not, keep it simple. It's just one thing. The slightly more Linux approach would be, well, let's actually dissect that. Would you like to send crash reports? Yes or no. Would you like to send package information? Yes or no. Would you like to send hardware information? Yes or no. So you like to send hardware information? Yes or no? So I think we're going to work through that, but as I said, we're soliciting feedback, and we're keen to hear from your users and your listeners as well.

What's the most constructive way for them to get involved if they're fired up about this and they want to constructively contribute? Well, let's point them to the launchpad bug tracker. Okay. I do have one question. Yeah, go ahead. So is there anything being done for de-averaging? I just think about my personal use case where I install Linux and a lot of times it gets to be Ubuntu in a lot of old machines,

that it's not the primary daily driver. And of course, that will definitely skew the statistics saying, hey, we have a bunch of old machines. Yeah, people firing things up to try it out, things like that. I think that's super important information, actually. I think it'll all come out as we start treating this data, millions of records potentially. I think it's super interesting. If there are still people using Ubuntu and expect Ubuntu to run on an ancient Dell netbook or something like that, I think that's important.

The data will show 32-bit lives. 32-bit lives. What I really wanted to know is, if you have, you can disclose, what type of strategy and if that information will also be released. Because de-averaging is definitely one of the hardest things to do properly when you have large data sets. So I'm interested to hear that side, because for me as a developer, right, I can go into that list of information you're releasing and i would be able to say oh so people are building for these low-end computers

better not use these new fancy features but reality is my target user base would still be on the fancy computer so the the question is marrying my app for that to sort of pare this down the question really is uh will will you publicly be disclosing the math being used to average all this stuff out sure i i don't i don't see why not i predict uh no fewer than five master's thesis written in 2019 based on uh ubuntu.com five thesis and 25 conspiracies dustin uh so producer michael i want to give you the last question, then we should probably move on because I think Producer Michael has a good one. Yeah, I was just wondering if – the data itself is interesting, and the opt-out is something I actually think is potentially beneficial in another way that might not be considered in some people. considered in some people. But I was wondering if you have it so that someone has to opt out and they check it to opt out, would that information be sent to Canonical as well so that people would

know how many people opt out versus continue? One ping only. Yeah, that's the proposal right now, that there's one ping that says opt out or statistics equals false. Once again, we throw away the IP address and the location information, but the simple ping of this user declined is important in understanding the statistical validity and the statistical power of the, and those are statistics terms, of the data set, actually. If you don't know how big the data set is, it, it, the data is, is only, only so, so useful.

I agree. Yeah, I agree. So let's start the ridiculous outrage right now. Canonicals even tracking me when I tell them not to track me. There you go. I said it first. So now you can make fun of anybody else who says it.

It's a spyware. Guys, this is all fascinating. I'm really curious to see where this goes. Is there any other points you wanted to get out there before we move on to some of our other news? So I'm just curious, how much would this impact trying to get more OEMs to try to deploy Ubuntu on their machines as an option? Will we know until we see the data? That's really the thing.

You know? Potentially, it has a lot of potential because they actually would have data. I've been around Canonical for over 10 years now, and in the early days, it was trying to convince Dell and Lenovo and others to take a chance on this crazy open-source

Linux distribution at a time when Windows and Mac sort of dominated the market. There was no Chrome OS, there was no Android. And it was super difficult to show the size of the free and open source community. I think if nothing else, even non-Ubuntu users hopefully can understand and appreciate that this sort of information will help all open source projects make their case that, hey, we do deserve, we, the open source community, do deserve a seat at the table at any OEM, ODM discussion, you know, and hardware enablement, you know, from your latest Bluetooth and Wi-Fi and graphics adapter just working out of the box with Linux. All of that has to happen upstream. Someone has to pay for that development. Some product manager somewhere has to make the case that there's enough Ubuntu, there's enough Linux users out there to make this justified. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. That could be a huge contribution if you think about

it. That could really be a massive like amount of data because one of the things that seems to be definitely true just from an observational standpoint is nothing puts the stress on a project like Ubuntu shipping it by default. Once it starts, I mean, you know, you can have with all respect to the projects like Fedora and others that will ship Wayland and ship the GNOME desktop for years and do a really good job of getting that shipping. But there's nothing like Ubuntu shipping something by default because it puts a whole nother category of stress on something. And it's way more eyes. It's way more different flavors of users. It's a totally different world.

flavors of users. It's a totally different world. And so if we could start to, as the community, get data from this huge distribution, massively beneficial, even if you're not using Ubuntu. And the fact that you guys are going to make it clear and easy to uncheck the box, I just really can't find anything to be super upset about this.

And I would love to. I love me a good rant. That'd be a great story. Yeah. It sounds pretty solid. So guys, thanks for coming on here, Will and Dustin. I really appreciate hearing it from you directly. Thank you very much. And I'll be keeping an eye on how this all goes. We'll see where things develop. What do you think, Wes?

Yeah, I think you're absolutely right in that we have this wonderful open source ecosystem, and so it seems like there will only benefit any number of different projects. It is the era of data, and it's another way to contribute now is data and if it can be done in a tasteful way that doesn't like... Up front and... I like that the location stuff is country level too. That makes me feel way better about it. I like it.

Alright, well we'll let you guys know though. It'll be something we look at in our 1804 review so we'll know when it ships, whatever state it does ship. Let's keep going though. We have so much more to get into. I want to take a moment and thank Ting for sponsoring the program here. Ting is pay-for-what-you-use mobile, a fair price for however much you talk, text, and data you use, with nationwide coverage, no contracts, no sneaky agreements, anything weird like that in there.

It's just simple pay-for-what-you-use. I think I pay somewhere around $40, usually just below that for three lines. Average Ting bill is $23 per phone. And you know what, Wes? It's their birthday. Is it? Happy birthday, Ting! I know! And to celebrate, they're giving away shirts

because you get presents for Ting's birthday. That is! I actually should ask Kyra who did their swag for that because that is legit. And I wouldn't mind getting that same person to do some swag for us. Coder Radio? Damn near 300 episodes. I got to get some good.

I got to. That's some legit swag. So the first 100 customers at Ting get that. I don't think I'm in the first 100. But I've been there for almost four years. So I got to be in the range. I don't know. I wish the first hundred, but I've been there for almost four years, so I've got to be in the range. I don't know. I wish I could be a Ting hipster.

Anyways, they're still giving away some, so maybe I can still get one, and you can too if you go to the Ting blog. But start, do us a favor, start by going to linux.ting.com. That'll take $25 off a device or $25 in credit if you bring a device. They've got a great control panel, fantastic customer service, and tons of devices to choose from. And really the best customer support ever. Linux.ting.com. Go follow them on the Twitters, too.

That's how I found out about their T-shirt giveaway. They're TingFTW on the Twitter. Linux.ting.com. And a big thanks to Ting for sponsoring the Unplugged program. Boom-a-da-boom, boom-a-da-boom, boom-a, boom, boom. I like the drums there, Wes. You knew where I was going. I sure did. Wes was air drumming while I did that. Dude, that's almost worth putting a camera on you just for that. All right. Well, so you heard Dustin mention it there, and I teased it in the intro. The crazy cats over at Pop! OS and Elementary got together and decided, you know what we need to do?

We need to collaborate on making it possible to ship encryption turned on by default on future System76 machines running Pop! OS and Elementary OS installs. So to tell us about this crazy work is Cassidy and Dan from Elementary OS and System76 in Cassidy's case to tell us all about this. So guys, where do you think we should start? Cassie, should we start with you and tell us about the work, sort of the collab work between Pop OS and Elementary on this here thing? Sure. Yeah. Okay. Let's do that. Tell me, so how did that kick off? I mean, I know you are kind of, you're kind of in a good position there being involved in both Elementary OS and working for System76 as an employee. But that didn't necessarily mean this had to come about. Right.

Well, obviously, I'm a secret agent for Elementary within System76. It's a long play. That's a long play, Cassie. It's a long play. No. So, yeah. Like, I've been using – I had been using elementary OS at System76 for quite some time. And, you know, anytime you can collaborate with another project, it's a good idea to think about it.

Yeah, really, especially if it's something like working on an installer together. That seems to be, like, a solid sort of collection of resources and efforts. Yeah, and so we had, we've done a little bit of collection of resources and efforts. Yeah. And so we had, we'd done a little bit of collaboration in the past with like app center. So elementary developed app center and pop OS is using it as a pop shop, which is just a really simple front end for the repositories. Okay.

But we decided, you know, elementary had designed this spec for an installer and we'd actually, we'd been working on it for years, just kind of as a back burner. Like, hey, someday when we get the resources to do this, this is what we want the experience to look like. Yeah, okay. And System76, when they kicked off Pop! OS, they were kind of thinking the same thing. Like, hey, we have a chance to really tailor the install experience. You have the people's first touch of Pop! OS and System76 with an installer.

And they looked at the elementary spec for our installer, and they liked it. And so we got together and hacked on it for a week. Okay. Fair enough. So we did that, I forget when the first Hackfest was, but that was a few months ago. I forget when the first Hackfest was, but that was a few months ago. We did a first initial Hackfest, went over the spec, and went over the designs that we had already designed. We updated them.

The elementary guys worked on the front end, and the System76 people worked on the back end. And it got off to a great start. I think we have an upcoming blog post about that. That one's not published yet. But after working on that a bit, we decided to get back together, and this was last month, to continue working on it and discuss kind of where we are and what we want to do next. And is that when the topic of encryption came up?

Precisely, yeah. So a lot of System76 customers actually require full disk encryption. So that's high security environments, some of the strictest security requirements. They have to have their entire disk encrypted. And that's something you can't really do out of the box well today.

It requires you reinstall the OS. So what we would have is we'd have customers who were getting the OS or getting System76 hardware, then downloading the OS, flashing it to a flash drive, wiping their computer, reinstalling. And then probably forgetting to install the PPA. Right. It kind of defeats the purpose of, you know. An out-of-the-box experience.

Out-of-the-box, right. So it was really important to System76 to have encryption out-of-the-box because that's a big requirement for a lot of our customers. Okay. So we started thinking, you know, if we're working on this installer, we have an opportunity to ship encryption out-of-the-box. And so that's what that blog post was about. And figuring out – and really, you know, when I went through this, what I realized, Cassidy, is that it is way more complicated than just checking a box by default. Like you have stuff in here about recovery partitions and essentially like escape hatches. Can you talk – so what is the – what's the big – what's the big problem by turning this on by default? Because obviously if it was just checking a box, that probably would have been done five years ago.

Right. So, yeah, the biggest, I mean, there's kind of two things. There's the technical implications and the UX implications. Sure, yeah. The technical implications are that you can't ship a computer that's encrypted out of the box and have it actually be acceptable because the OEM then has the encryption key. Right, and they've probably generated it from some sort of standard image, so if they have some sort of flaw in their process, it could become predictable.

I would imagine that's something to worry about too, is like you have to make sure you're encrypting it in a way where the user owns the password. Yeah, and there can't be an opportunity for the AOM to get that password because then it's just useless. How do you do that when you're shipping it pre-built? So we

started talking about this idea of a recovery partition, and this is something other OS's do, but it's where basically you have an install media as a small partition on the drive out of the box. And this gives you, you know, if you totally screw up your system and need to reinstall, it means you can just reboot into the restore partition and reinstall without having to go get a flash drive or anything. And with that comes the ability to reinstall the OS as soon as you get it.

You could still technically be reinstalling the OS when you get it, but it removes the need to go get a flash drive and download the OS again and everything. So with our installer, the idea is you can, when you receive the computer, you open it up. And as far as the user is concerned, it says, you know, hey, do you want to encrypt your drive? And you can say, yeah, sure, that sounds great. And what it's actually doing under the hood is reinstalling the entire OS. Wow. But you don't realize it. And then you reboot and you're off and you set up your user and you're good to go.

So it's still pretty close to the old out-of-the-box experience. They don't have to go through the full installer. They get boot started halfway through. But under the hood, it's all still new. Yeah. And so this installer has a mode. So it has an OEM mode, and then it must have just a regular end user mode.

If I download the ISO and I install Juno or Pop!OS, I get the installer that lets me do it at the time of installation. But then there's been allowances made for the OEM to set it up, and the settings that the OEM sets must translate through reinstallation, I would assume? Yeah, that's the idea, is that we precede as much information as we can. So if you choose a language or if you choose any settings that you choose, get restored back when you reinstall. New packages, different PBAs? I'm not sure what all that is right now. And is this going to be available in elementary OS as well as pop OS?

Hopefully. Eventually. Good man. You don't want to say for sure because it's all like future stuff. Yeah. Our standard line is, you know, when it's ready. Yeah. I see that actually.

It's literally the ending line of the blog post. Yeah. So the goal would be to ship it in the next version of elementary OS and pop OS. I think in both of those cases, we both, System76 and elementary, have a backup plan of shipping Ubiquiti as is if, you know, things don't get done in time. Because I think we're both aiming to release in April or as close to that as we can. So, you know, there's that a little bit of a time crunch, and you've got to figure out if it's worth shipping an entirely new and less tested installer or shipping the old. Well, to that point, there must have been some discussion between the teams there where you're looking at the things you need to accomplish. where you're looking at the things you need to accomplish. And I don't, because I wasn't there,

the top three on my list, installer, wouldn't have been there. So why was installer number one? Like, what was the background to say, we've really got to address this problem? And I'm particularly interested from the Pop! OS perspective because to me it seems like the majority of the Pop! OS customers are going to experience the OEM install. They're probably using Pop! OS pre-installed, but the installer was still a high priority. So do you have any background on sort of that and kind of what the goal is there?

Sure. With Pop! OS, I mean, it is definitely, it's made for System76, like, first and foremost, but we definitely want it to be usable by anybody out there. So installing, you know, the first experience you get when you're installing is still your first experience with System76 if you didn't buy a computer from System76. So when you buy a computer, you're going to the website, you're getting the packaging, you're opening it up, you're getting the first experience of the hardware. So you have a good first experience there. But when you're installing Pop! OS on some other machine,

your first experience is really the installation. So we wanted to make sure that no matter how you experience System76, it's a good first experience. Sure, and if I go through that and I go, damn, that was pretty smooth, I might think, I wonder what else they do that's smooth like that. Right, right. It's, you know, the whole interaction is important. like that. Right, right. It's, you know, the whole interaction is important. Yeah. And then even with the OEM installer, or even with the OEM installation, when you get it, you still do go

through that first setup right out of the box. So you're still actually going through part of the installer process. Sure. Especially with the full disk encryption, that was really important that you would have, you would actually have to go through an installer process. It can't be a user setup if you're going to fully encrypt the disk. So encryption by default, I think everybody in our audience is going to be pretty on board with that. I heard from Noah that sometimes folks have issues when they're updating like NVIDIA binary drivers and whatnot. Did you run into those issues and have to sort of test through that? I mean, we're always doing constant testing on things.

We have a QA team that does that at System76. But it's kind of to the point where technically it works really well. The people who know it doesn't work for them have an option to just not encrypt right out of the box. But I think pushing it by default, it's secure by default. Protecting user data by default is what you should be doing in today's day and age. So I think it's important to get it out there by default. And that also helps, you know, add a whole lot more testing in after we obviously test it at System76. That also adds a lot of testing out there in the real world if it's shipping by default.

Yeah. And when you think about it, laptops are becoming more and more the primary machine for a lot of people doing work. And so that's really where the use case is to encrypt your data. Maybe if you have a desktop that's 75 pounds and sitting in your home office, I don't know. But for a laptop, like, you know, you're always working on your laptop. And especially I can imagine, yeah, many clients, you know, that's a – Many standards required. Good on you guys. I think people are going to really like this.

Thank you. And it's pretty cool to see the on you guys. I think people are going to really like this. Thank you. And it's pretty cool to see the collaboration there, too. It seems like a natural fit. I'm waiting for the day when I can buy a System76 machine in the currency of my choice with elementary OS pre-installed. That is going to happen. It's going to happen. Of course, the currency of choice. We'll see.

We'll see. It's always changing. But good stuff, guys. I'm glad to see it It's going to happen. Chris, the currency of choice. We'll see. We'll see. It's always changing. But good stuff, guys. I'm glad to see it. Hey, Dustin here. I just want to add kudos to the Elementary OS guys. That's fantastic. I've spent a lot of my career working on disk encryption and encryption in Ubuntu,

and I applaud you for the work and development that you've done here. I think it's fantastic. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, I agree. And it's going to be great to get more end users banging on this for everybody. That's the thing. As Linux users, we

love to talk about how secure our operating system is, but a lot of times it's far behind unless you know what you're doing. So this is a great step. And you know what else? The takeaway story is the big story is the 1804 installer and distros that are based on 1804 and their installers are about to get a lot more interesting in this next release cycle. There's new things that are coming.

Just really quickly, too, while we're talking about new things that are coming, did you see GNOME Usage? GNOME Usage and GNOME 3.28, speaking of 1804, and another distro shipping GNOME 3.28. There's a new app in there. It's called GNOME Usage. It's sort of basic at this point. It really kind of shows you two things. It shows you your resources and your storage. What else is there?

That's kind of it. And it's current. It's real-time, like what's happening right now. It's not, like, historical. Processor usage, memory usage, network usage, and storage usage. It actually looks decent, though. It's something that's actually been in work for two years, as Joey points out, over at OMG Ubuntu,

and it does not replace GNOME System Monitor. Don't worry. Your beloved System Monitor is still there. In fact, it's getting a couple of new features, including improved support for dark themes in GNOME 3.2.8. So there you go. Even though I'm recording this on a Plasma desktop,

still giving you some GNOME updates, right? Hey, we can do that here. We may have done the Plasma challenge and found it to be, well, all of us except for Popey. Rumor has it Popey moved off. Like some sort of vagabond. Shut your filthy mouth. No, I didn't.

Oh, really? I'm still using KDE Neon like a champ. It's great. In fact, I haven't even rebooted since i installed it no kidding i actually wouldn't have either but we had a power outage over the weekend here at the studio so a couple of my kd machines did have to reboot okay all right well there you go the rumors before the show were false there's been some false gossip wow i don't know i don't know if we've ever had i don't know if we've ever had a challenge stick like this before

you know i'll say this, too. The other day, I had my machine up for a while, and I went to go resize some windows, and it was still fast. That sounds like a small thing, but it's all it takes to make me happy is that the fact that I can resize windows and it's not super slow. Responsive to the last. You know what? It has been, and I really like it. Well, there you go. A little update there and some new toys coming to the GN. You know what? It has been. And I really like it. Well, there you go. A little update there

and some new toys coming to the GNOME desktop in 3.2.8. Lots of goodies coming down. Just a couple of weeks away, actually. I was going to say coming down the river. Yeah, this sounds like the future. But it's like just... It's basically tomorrow. It's like a few episodes out.

Just, boy, we have so much to get to. I'm excited. You know what else is just a few episodes out is Scale. Scale's coming up really soon, too. And then shortly after that is LinuxFest. Where will we find the time? You sure you don't want to jump on LadyJupes and just come down to Scale, Wes? I mean, I'll put out the couch for you.

Now that is very tempting. You know, I'd take a little road trip on LadyJupes. There's nothing like traveling in Jupes down to California. I'll tell you what. You know, you could keep Levi company. I was going to say, if there's Levi involved. All right. Well, before we get into the rest of the community news,

including that bogus Linux vulnerability, OpenStreetMap woes, and my big announcement, let's talk about DigitalOcean. Simplicity at scale. It's a platform you can spin up infrastructure on in seconds. Everything is SSD based, and they just recently revamped the pricing. And this just in from the back office here, Wes.

Some big news. Chris really blew it. Wes was here when I got the note, which you can hear is a physical, is actually a physical. It's so fresh and clean. It's a physical note. And I believe my exact words were, oh, God, I am such an idiot. That's exactly verbatim. Yeah, I got an email here printed out for me.

If you guys go to – if you're a new customer, you got to be a new Dio customer. Sorry. This is a new customer only thing. If you go to dio.co slash unplugged, for 60 days, you can get $100 credit at DigitalOcean. What? Yeah. I usually say a $10 credit. They upped it a little bit because they've just recently rolled out a whole bunch of new features.

They've made their pricing even more competitive, and they have new flexible droplets. At $15 a month, you can mix and match resources, the most appropriate for your application. They have their big memory and CPU-optimized droplets. And, of course, my favorite, the $0.03 an hour just got – all the droplets got better. If you've been listening to this show for a while and you built a machine on DigitalOcean, go upgrade it. You just have to shut it down, do the upgrade thing. The reason why you have to shut it down is because they'll

even re-expand your file system. I mean, like, it's the full full upgrade. It's so great. $100 credit, though, they've had this offer out here for a couple of weeks and I forgot to tell the audience because I didn't read that paragraph. So go get on it. Get set up.

Experience the joy. They're probably sitting around going, why is nobody taking advantage of a $100 offer? We don't do that very often. Ever? So I'm just an idiot. Anyway, so you go to do.co slash unplugged. You get the $100 credit and you can try out something over there for whatever you want. I mean go build a –

Yeah, splurge. Enjoy yourself. You want to build a GitLab? You want to go build a NextCloud instance? You want to try out something over there for whatever you want. I mean, go build a – Yeah, splurge. Enjoy yourself. You want to build a GitLab? You want to go build a NextCloud instance? You want to try out something? Just do it. DigitalOcean.com. And they also have a ton of really good documentation.

You hear us mention the ArchWiki all the time. I would say only number two to the ArchWiki. The only number two to ArchWiki these days is DigitalOcean's documentation only because they're paying people to contribute. And so it's good quality stuff and it's really well structured and they have like a style guide and all that stuff. And it makes it really easy to read and follow. And that's just one of the perks of being a DigitalOcean customer. That's why Docker and Slack and Jupyter Broadcasting and many others are DigitalOcean customers. DigitalOcean.com.

Go use our promo code D-O-Unplugged or D-O-C-O-slash-unplugged. And hopefully you still have time because it was a limited time offer and I forgot to tell you guys for a couple weeks because I speed read. You know how sometimes I mispronounce stuff? Yeah, it affects all things of life, including giving you a $100 offer. I apologize. Go to D-O-C-O-slash-unplugged and get a $100 DigitalOcean credit. I can't even believe I'm saying those words outged and get $100 DigitalOcean credit. I can't even believe I'm saying those words out loud, $100 DigitalOcean credit. I wish I was a new customer, except then I wouldn't have been enjoying DigitalOcean. You've got multiple email addresses. Come on.

All right. So let's just really quickly talk about this bogus Linux vulnerability. It's got Stephen J. VanHoff Nicholas really fired up, and it takes a lot to get him fired up these days. So GoSecure, a company that's trying to make a name for itself, has claimed to have discovered Chaos, a stolen backdoor rising again. That's their title for it. It's a pretty good name actually. And here's sort of the dirty secret of this horrible vulnerability called Chaos that GoSecure has discovered. It just simply brute forces an SSH login.

So you just basically get compromised if you have a bad password. If you got a good password, it's not taking advantage of any zero-day exploits. It's not using some sort of side-channel timing attack to read the memory and parse together your password. It's just simply using a password database. Or just use keys. Yeah, I know, right? It's just in from 2006. From way before.

Once your system's already been spread wide open because you used a bad password, then things tend to go wrong. It opens up TCP port 8338, which is accepting raw socket connections. And then once it has a bad password and it gets on there, port 8338, which is accepting raw socket connections. And then once it has a bad password and it gets on there, if – oh, I should mention, it can only open up port 8338, by the way, if it has root access because it's Linux, which means you also have a weak root password. So if you have a weak user password and a weak root password, then it can get on there and cause some problems.

And it's called Chaos, and it's getting a lot of print this week. So if you hear people talking about a new Linux vulnerability called Chaos, don't worry. Just make sure you have a good password or use keys like last time. Yeah, I suggest password 123. Just set that as root enable root login over SSH. You'll be fine. All right. I don't want to get too down about this, but I actually kind of want the mumble rooms take on this because it seems like it's a problem for anything that wants to take on Google

or Apple or what Amazon or Microsoft is doing. And I'm talking about OpenStreetMaps. It's a pretty great product, and I really like the way it displays information. I kind of prefer, like when I'm looking at certain areas, I was checking out Pasadena recently trying to figure out if I could bark Lady Jupes anywhere down there. And I just found the labeling

system better and more accurate. Not accurate. I don't know, like... It's more useful, but it's missing data that it would be nice to have in certain... Yeah, like it's got some data that other things don't have, like – It's more useful but it's missing data that it would be nice to have in certain – Yeah, like it's got some data that other things don't have but then it's missing a bunch of – yeah. Yeah, OK.

Thank you. And so a former contributor wrote up an article about some of the problems that he sees with OpenStreetMap. And he's a big fan of OpenStreetMap. So this isn't like a takedown piece. It's him being concerned about it. And he talks about unclear usage policies, about how they sort of discourage the use of the free map. But then if you ask for it, they'll let you. But then if you use more than 5% of their bandwidth, they'll shut it down.

They really want you to use their data to generate your own map. And then there's things in the back end, like the geocoder that figures out different areas and helps you search is really bad. It's way out of date. It expects very syntax like an exact address and you can't say things like bagel places downtown seattle um and then the killer one is there's no moderation or review model which as you could probably imagine for something like open street maps to be difficult yeah introduces a lot of problems throughout the entire system including vandalism, bot abuse, all sorts of things. And then of course getting the data is hard. It almost – when you read this, it feels like the author tries to wrap it up on a positive note and says these are all warning signs and if we take immediate action, maybe we can save the day.

He calls them roadblocks uh boy when i read this i i read this as open street maps is screwed it seems impossible this day and age the data that you need the proprietary information the fact that once you build something like this people come and vandalize it can open source do this is this just something that open source can't do you know how do we do imaging how do we do earth imaging well go ahead with me wasn't it wasn't we oh oh whoever was go ahead um so open street map has been around for a long time i remember interviewing someone from the project many years ago on the ubuntu podcast um when we had little

mapping parties because there were just great swathes of emptiness around our towns and cities in the UK and they were talking about maybe by the end of the year we'll have all of the UK mapped and there were you know entire continents that hadn't been mapped yet but people came together and they worked together and they fixed those problems. And a lot of these are, you know, you need more bodies. They need to recruit more people to help moderate the submissions that are happening. And I fixed things. There was a road that was wrong near me and I just logged in, tried to remember what my password was, fixed the road, done. And that's fixed for everyone forever who's using that map.

I think they need a bit more of a recruitment drive to get more people involved in using it they need to make the tools easier to use for sure because it is a little bit janky to to to do this and have some incentive for people to to moderate these things and make it easier for people to get access to the data if they can solve all those those are mostly technical but also getting more people involved i i think they're fine. I'm more a glass half full and I know you're quite a glass half empty kind of guy. But I think this is solvable.

All of this is solvable. I certainly hope so. I tend to think that more bodies on the problem is only a part of the issue. I think some of this is like technology because you think about it, it's a data issue. I think some of this is like technology. Um, cause you think about it, it's a, it's a data issue. And, and the more Google, Google's at a point now where they have

millions of Android devices that are using Google maps, constantly setting real time feedback to Google maps. Like how do you ever come close to anything like that? You know what I mean? Like, so, so part's a, like they talk about their geocoder in here is sort of out of date. And I guess you could somehow, maybe somebody could donate a new geocoder. Maybe Nokia could come along

or something like that. I think that makes it very, one, my takeaway from a lot of this is that they need to be clear about what they're trying to do and not do because it can be hard, right?

Like they can't, maybe that's something they can't do, but they can still be really valuable as an open database for all these things, even if it's not going to be Gmaps level interface. I mean, technically they can just use Google Maps data anyway

because Google doesn't own the concept of the data that they collect data around, you know, usage of that stuff as they own, but they can't own the map itself. So they don't provide access to the data. So the open street map guys can't just like poke at Google and get the data out and they would get cease and desist because some of the data isn't theirs anyway. It's licensed from third parties. But other people have tried to do in the same way that Android devices crowdsource a lot of the location and traffic data and so on.

Other people have tried this. Mozilla tried this. They had a thing that was baked into Firefox OS. And actually you could optionally, I think it was called Mozilla Stumbler, you could install on your phone and just leave it running in the background. And it would just constantly send updates about where Wi-Fi access points were and try and locate where you were. So they could put all these dots on the map and show where roads are and all

that kind of stuff. It's possible, but you need a critical mass of people who are going to do it. And obviously, Google, with a critical mass of billions of devices, are already way out ahead. I wonder if it isn't a bit of the same. And they also do one thing that I don't know of any voluntary organization or anybody else doing. They actually go to governments and ask for maps because governments have maps, infrastructure, detailed, just the data set governments need for defense.

They have it. All right. Fair enough. It's usually public. But hopefully, I think that overall, if it's not going to help as much in the terms of maps, but in other things, the new GDPR ruling actually goes and says that you as a citizen or as a customer have the right to ask for the data that is about you. So that essentially could make it easier to compete by you having the ability to export all of your data and importing a second service. To Dan's point, like the hours that places are busy, if you could even get a thousand users to export their hours when they go to stores and import that, that would be useful. If you could even just get a small fraction. You just have to be able to get that enabled,

but you know, because they've got it by default. Yeah. Yeah. It still feels a bit like the Spotify problem in that Spotify is attempting to monetize music streaming when Google, Apple, and Amazon can just do music streaming as part of their overall offering. And if it costs them to do music streaming, it doesn't matter because they're selling you the block- block into the platform. And I wonder if that is the same with maps. It is so expensive and it requires so much overhead to keep good competitive maps that perhaps it's the vendors that have a platform incentive to have mapping like Google, Apple, et etc., that will be the best at it. And, I mean, I hate to say this,

but maybe it's just not our bag. Go ahead, JJ. So I would say, like, for those who don't want to be dependent on Google services, such as those who root in ROM, their devices, they would probably see more incentive into seeing these open map platforms. Yes. And also-

But is that enough? Is that enough, JJ? Is that enough? Because I'll give you an example. I would like to have an open street map that I could go to where I could get really good, like super specific information about cellular signal. So I knew where I could go to get really good data signal. I would like to know where cops often hang out at,

so I could mark that on a map. That's something I think that would be extremely useful. And just for me personally, I'd also like to know where I could park for 24 hours without getting towed. And I'd like to mark that up on a map. And I don't think Google is ever going to do any of that. I mean, you're partially describing Waze there.

Which is owned by Google now. Yeah, but still, it's... I mean, but there's still demand for those who want to be free from Google services, such as yourself trying to go away from Google Photos. There are plenty of people who've built things on top of OpenStreetMap, like, you know, building, you know, whether it's making access to data about, you know, like you say, where's parking. There are people who've built cycle maps. There are people who've built canal maps in the uk so you know where all the canals are and it wouldn't take a lot for someone to you know build on top but as you've mentioned it's difficult getting access to that map data without like rebuilding all the

tiles yourself um or you know licensing their api so that that is a difficult problem you know i have a question yeah go ahead would you guys be willing to pay a bounty per se right so you would introduce into the platform a bounty that says i would like these such such region to be mapped you know and this bounty coverage a few kilometers whatever right and ultimately then there's people that could attempt to actually map out that thing by trying to get that the winning of that bounty and that's a fascinating idea that is a really as long as you have the moderation to prevent abuse of people just going out and wandering outside their house for 10 minutes or strapping a phone to a dog and letting it loose in a field.

What you do is you build an AR game, right? Yeah, exactly. I kind of have the sense that maybe I should try to reach out to some folks at the OpenStreetMap project and get their take on this too because this is Sergey's take, right? And so I'd like to get their take and see where they – so if time allows or if anybody out there has a connection, let me know on Telegram or Twitter. I'd be more than happy to chat with somebody from the project and get their take on it and see where they're going with this because

like Popey was saying, there is so many great just esoteric uses that people have built on top of OpenStreetMaps. It is worth it just for that to continue. I mean, I have my crazy reasons, but there's also really good reasons like biking and hiking and others. So I would love to talk to somebody there because this is one of those projects where if there was anything I could do, I'd pay a bounty. If there was anything I could do, if I could run an app on my Android phone while I drive Lady Jupes around the country to help improve their maps, I'd be more than happy to do it. So if you have anybody out there, if you're a listener to this show and you know anybody out there that maybe I should talk to, I'd love it if you could help make the connection. Because geez, if I don't like the

way, if I just don't prefer the way they render the maps, I just prefer reading open street maps than I do Google Maps. Not that there's really anything super wrong with Google Maps. I just prefer the way they look. They do look really nice. Yeah. I like them too. So, you know, you hate to see something like that fade away. And it makes you wonder, like, what other things? Like, what if one day we all got off our arses and decided we wanted to have an open source music streaming service? Could we do it? Impossible.

What if we wanted to have, like, a peer-to-peer video streaming service to take on YouTube? Could we do it? I'm not convinced we could pull it off. But OpenStreetMap is one of those things where we already have a beachhead. There's a bunch of data plugged in there. We already have momentum. So if there's anything we could do as a community to come together. Let's not lose that.

Yeah, let's keep it going. Let's keep that rolling. And I'd love to talk to somebody over there about that. LinuxAcademy.com slash unplugged. Go there to sign up for a free seven-day trial and support this here show. It's everything you need to learn more about Linux. When I was first starting in IT, because IT is like dog years. I don't know if you thought about this, but I was recently thinking it's kind of like dog years. Like 10 years in IT is like 25 years in the banking field.

And one of the things that's so crazy about – because I'm in – I'm just past my mid-30s now. So it's not like I'm super old. But it is nuts to my face. It is nuts to my face that when I first got into IT, the way we would look stuff up, and I'm 100% honest with you here, is about once a month, a couple of us from the department would get together in somebody's car, and we'd go out to lunch. And then after lunch, when we're full and may or may not have had a beer in us, we would go to the bookstore, and we would buy a book, a couple of books each. And then we would bring these books back and we would stack them on the shelf and we would never use them unless we were really desperate.

Plus, you probably got grease on them from the fries from lunch. You know me too well, Wes. I couldn't even imagine a resource like Linux Academy. And it would have at best been some sort of half-assed feature that gets added on to some other training platform. So, you know, somewhere for corporate training or learning about Active Directory management or how to fix your sync. And then they would have thrown on a few Linux courses. Go learn some more, Chris. We'll pay you some money to go do that. And that would have been it. Later on in my career, what I did have some access to was community college training courses that would be taught off of campus or on campus,

depending on the course, that were about Linux, but they weren't really about the career track that I was on, but they were just checking the box. My employer wanted me to have continued education. We were deploying Linux servers. I needed to do something and they wanted results, so I went and took basic Linux courses like Linux Plus and Introductions to Linux. Meanwhile, I'm sitting there setting up Linux firewalls and Samba servers. It just didn't match. That's where Linux Academy completely changes the game. Linuxacademy.com slash unplugged. You sign up for a free seven-day trial. It's everything you need to learn about any category of Linux from the basics all the way up to the high-level stuff like Azure, AWS, OpenStack, all of that.

They have courses that are also created specifically to help you get certifications if that's the route you want to go. They have self-paced in-depth video courses and they have virtual labs they spin up on demand. And if you ever get stuck, they have a real human being that can help you. It's completely different than anything that I saw many years ago. And it's the kind of tool that's come along now. Now that Linux has enjoyed some success in the marketplace, somebody had to come along and create this. And I'm so thankful it's Linux Academy

because it's created by Linux enthusiasts, educators, and developers that came together to build the Linux Academy platform. And you can try it out seven days for free at linuxacademy.com slash unplugged. linuxacademy.com slash unplugged. linuxacademy.com slash unplugged. So, you know, I'm going to get into an announcement here, but I just wanted to do an infernal poll with the Mumble Room. If we were going to make a decision today, guys, would you say go back to IRC or stick with Discord?

This isn't related to my announcement at all, but it's something we were talking about, Wes and I, in the pre-show. Can I guess the first vote? Yeah, go ahead. I vote IRC. Go back to IRC. Yeah, and I think I can back that up pretty well. Alright, okay. Let's hear it. Let's hear it, Mr. Noel. What is it? So, I think

anytime you look at a community, you have to look at the lowest common denominator to which the community can centralize around. And I think in the Linux community, you have to look at the lowest common denominator to which the community can centralize around. And I think in the Linux community, the open source world, Red Hat organizes their community on IRC. And sure, there are people that are organizing on Discord and Telegram. We've seen, you know, when we go to these events, a lot of the Ubuntu people are organizing on Telegram. So certainly there are other platforms in use. But the lowest common denominator, the one thing that exists in basically every Linux company and every open source community

is IRC. And I think that there are some, from a production standpoint, we're tempted to play with some of the new toys because it looks better on screen. There's more animation, but I think that direct community engagement is something that is so valuable it's worth giving up anything potentially else just to have that. All right. So I agree with everything you said. I'll give you the counter argument. Discord is born in a mobile era. You can use Discord in your web browser. You can use Discord on a Windows box, Mac box, Linux box. You can use Discord on a phone. Phone, Discord is born of a Slack era where you have contextual rich chat with URL previews, image previews, emoticons, voice chat integrated. It's how IRC would be designed today if it had access to all of that feature set. I would agree. I have all of that. Oh, go ahead, Bobby.

Mine is voice chat. I have everything you just said in IRC. I thought you would be the Discord guy. Are you serious right now? IRC sucks to set up on a phone, though. I was going to send to you to defend Discord. If you have the IRC Cloud app on your phone, it's in sync with the IRC Cloud app on your desktop. The only thing missing from the list that you just gave is voice chat so what do you

think do you think we should go back to irc for jupiter broadcasting you should use slag i would also i would also just i would also just piggyback onto that and say that the i would say that the vast is there anyone that exists in the discord is there anyone that's in that community that doesn't already set up an IRC system? Like, I think a lot of those people, a lot of the people I see in the Discord, they're the same people that are in IRC, so they've already set that up, and yes, there is, I would agree with the gentleman

who said that it's a little more difficult to set up on the phone, but, and I'm using Quassel, and that also is very simple to set up on the phone. Okay, I'd like to hear from Wimpy, just from, and Rotten, let's go, Wimpy, if you're available, just because you've been a longtime observer of JB, you've sat back, you have some distance from this. I'd kind of like to hear your thoughts if you're there. So I'm in the Discord and IRC, but I pay more attention to IRC because the irc chat is easier to engage with than

discord chat whenever i go to discord there's pages and pages and pages of irrelevant stuff and i can drop in and out of irc and as popey says i use irc cloud as well so what i have on my desktop and my mobile phone is the same if anyone tags me in any of the channels I'm subscribed to, I get notifications on my phone. All right. Okay. I can't argue with any of that either. Producer Michael, I wanted to give you – oh, Wes, did you want to say something? I was just saying, does IRC Cloud have a free plan?

I think so, yes. Okay. Yeah. I am also an IRC user. I would be curious for the opposite number. I like the comparison idea, but I wonder too how many people have set up IRC just for JB but already have Discord from other things. That is a great point. Okay, Producer Michael, I wanted to give you a chance, and then maybe I'll come back to you.

They both have problems. Discord and IRC both have problems. I mitigate the problems with IRC in the same way but not with IRC Cloud. I use Matrix and Riot.im. Oh, man. You fancy bear. You can use Riot.im without actually setting up your own server as well. So you can just use the Matrix.org stuff.

So you're kind of in a roundabout way saying IRC, and if you want the fancy features, there's ways to get that. Well, I mean, in the sense of doing the displays and the previews, as far as the communication aspect, IRC is easier because a lot of people will say it's, it's harder to set up, but if you're just brand new to it, you can just go to a,

you know, Kiwi IRC or something like that, where you just link to someone directly to a thing. And then instantly in the chat, there's ways to do that where you can't do that. You cannot do that in discord. And then there's other ways in, like, if you don't have a Discord account, you can't go to a Discord

server. So there are aspects that, like, the only thing I would say is the previews and the log is not available directly in IRC. You'd have to do some way to mitigate that, such as, like, Matrix or IRC Cloud. Okay.

I'm going somewhere with all of this this isn't just uh this isn't just looking at our uh navel gazes was that the same navel gazing here i am actually i am going somewhere with this but wimpy i know you were jumping in there for a second so i want to go back to you um no uh michael's uh touched on all of those points really i've got nothing okay extra to add other than the fact i recently re-added the um jupiter broadcasting channel to my irc cloud configuration because i can't um submit show title suggestions through discord right yeah so i'm gonna you know what i'll do is i'll put the i'll put a poll out there it's embedded in the show notes if you you want to vote because there's lots of people that can't make it live

that have a position on this that maybe sometimes can, that could vote. What brought this up was the discussion that I was having behind the scenes with Wes just today about, hey, what if for a hot moment we wanted to see if we could dynamically generate a live stream video feed on a droplet. What I mean by that, instead of using OBS here in the studio to capture the chat room, we had a droplet that was headless that was monitoring a chat room and generating a video feed and streaming that to Scale Engine. So I could just connect in with an audio feed from wherever I'm at, and the droplet would actually generate the chat room and the lower third and all of that.

And as that conversation progressed, we realized, well, damn, that's a lot harder when you're using Discord than it is if you're using IRC. And especially when it just comes down to stupid things, like we have disparate rooms in discord for the different shows which is nice because then it's it's very focused but at the same time like how do you programmatically plan for that like how do you switch rooms and capture just that and what if the discord api changes and what kind of information can we get versus an irc room where everything's just in one room and it's text which which is a lot easier to work with server side.

And so then I thought, well, you know, before we go kill ourselves, like what is the interest here right now? There's only been 19 votes by the live stream. If you want to vote straw poll dot me slash one five one one five four nine six. Be heard. Sixty eight percent are voting to go back to IRC on the, and I wouldn't shut down discord, but we would just, we, for the live stream focus, what's up on the, what's up on the live stream? What do we switch back to? How does that play into how title stuff is generated? Is IRC primary

more there? Yeah, I think so. I think it would mean everything goes back to primary being an IRC. Okay. I don't, you know, I don't care either way. I just want to do whatever folks are happy with. Although, could we experiment with Matrix? Matrix is interesting. Matrix is... You can use the IRC with Matrix, so you can do both. Yeah, that could be something down the road to look more into.

Wow. Well, actually, Matrix IRC bridge is fantastic. I love it. Yeah? Like, I've used it for so many different channels. So you're saying go play with that. Go ahead, i just that's interesting that that this comes up this is one of the things that i was kind of dragging my feet on it because i know oh i know it's part of this is partially your fault actually well so i was i heard some rumblings about this and so i was like ah just hold off for a little bit and just see what happens but yeah we were talking about because one of the things that matrix allows you to do, and again, this is where I think there's a discussion to be had about software licenses, right? Because, because it's

open source, it means that I looked at my team here at ultra speed and I was like, Hey, could we do some of these more competitive things from a production standpoint and tie them in? They're like, dude, you don't have no idea how easy that would be if we did it with matrix and we could have these apps and this, that, and all sorts of crazy things were coming up. And so I'd be tempted if you guys did decide to dig into that, I'd dig into it with you. Oh, boy. And handle some of the heavy lifting because I know how much you love dealing with the minutia of the projects, Chris. Yeah, you do.

You do. Yeah. Wes has got some great ideas, too. We really all need to get together and do a little powwow. I completely agree. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. All right. I've been using Matrix with IRC for intergos

IRC for channel for years now huh all right you know what you've convinced me Michael I'm gonna I'm gonna spend a little more time in consideration with that okay so I've got a big announcement that I'm pretty excited about that I want to get into but before I do I don't know. I wanted to make a little space here for Mr. Popey and Mr. Wimpy. Perhaps they would like to pre-tease some announcement. I know Curry just recently happened. The Ubuntu podcast has been on season break. Rumor has it the band may be getting back together. Yeah.

Yeah. That's it. No, go ahead. Maybe. yeah yeah so that's it no maybe uh so yeah we for those who don't know like wimpy and i do this little podcast it's a little two-bit show with uh it's a wonderful show everybody should be listening thank you um and every year since we started 10 years ago we stop recording at christmas that we make our last episode goes out over Christmas, and then we take a break for a couple of months so we can all have a rest.

And then we have a traditional go out for a curry. And then at that curry, we decide whether we're going to do it for another year and our plans for what we will change and what will stay the same. And we make loads of notes and we implement changes in the following week or so. And then we start the new season sometime soon after that isn't that right wimpy that's about it right yes roughly like that yeah what's so weird can i ask you a question about that though okay how many years have you done the show where after the curry you didn't return but you never know oh that's so so far we have a hundred percent success rate of coming back after having a curry

but one year one year one year why not but i have a suggestion for you how about at the last episode of recording you just do it at the curry place and then go ahead and decide right then oh we gotta have a break we get like it's pretty intense it's pretty hard work you to have a break. It's pretty hard work. You can have a break. You can still make a decision and then take a break as well. Yeah, maybe. Doing one half-hour show. Listen, Producer Michael, you wouldn't understand this, but doing one half-hour show a week

or recording two of them every two weeks is a huge amount of work. Also, you're suggesting we have curry at Christmas. Are you mad? Speaking of curry, I would... All seasons. I was just going to say, I'd like to lodge a complaint with my boss at Jupiter Broadcasting. Why is it we never have any sort of discussions around curry? Oh, I don't ever remember being invited to curry to discuss the next iteration of Asnoah or Lass.

I know, dude. It's not just this. There's another... This and another... I am taking two lessons from the Ubuntu podcast, and I will be integrating them into the announcement that I have coming up in mere moments. Really. I'm taking lessons. I am taking two lessons from the Ubuntu podcast, and I will be integrating them into the announcement that I have coming up in mere moments. Really, I'm taking lessons. I'm taking notes.

But yeah, guys. It's good to know that we're so influential. I'm looking forward to it. But I do also want to give a mention to our buddies over at Late Night Linux, episode 31 of Late Night Linux. They had Todd, the CEO of Purism, on to talk about a lot of the questions that I raised on Linux Action News and that Joe's been wondering. And the guys over there just did a great job

of asking Todd the questions, and Todd did a great job of answering them. So if you've been following the Librem 5, or if you've followed my journey with some of their stuff, I want to just totally give you a recommendation here. Go check out episode 31, a fantastic interview with the CEO of Purism about a lot of the things that have been on many of our minds.

So that's episode 31 of Late Night Linux. Ubuntu podcast could be coming up, but I'm going to beat all of them with my new release. I'm very, very happy to announce the return of an old favorite to the Jupiter Broadcasting Network for a limited time. I'm doing something kind of different here, and I think it's going to be fun. It's just to the lead up and just a little bit after scale. For a limited time, I'm bringing back Tech Talk Today to the Jupiter Broadcasting Network, and you can go over to techtalk.today. Now, I know what you're thinking. Why Tech Talk Today? and you can go over to techtalk.today. Now, I know what you're thinking.

Why Tech Talk today? Why do Tech Talk today when you could relaunch Plan B or come up with some other Linux-only show? It's a good question. You know, we put Tech Talk today on hiatus in September of 2016 so we could launch User Air. And I thought, surely, somebody will come along, like that Joe Resington asshole or Tom Merritt and they'll launch another tech show. You know what?

They're bastards, aren't they? Those bastards. You know. I sure do. that's outside the Silicon Valley bubble that maybe even by some weird luck, somebody on the show has used open source software once in their life or knows that they're using open source software. Surely by 2018, such a hero shall come along. And yet no such Batman has arrived on the scene.

And it's always really bothered me. I've gotten on the soapbox more than a few occasions about tech journalism on this show. There's lots of good tech shows. There really are. There's too many. There's too many tech shows. But they all have a really strong Silicon Valley bias. They typically can't see beyond the apps on their smartphone, to be honest with you.

And it drives me crazy. apps on their smartphone, to be honest with you, and it drives me crazy. And so looking at the near-term future of Jupyter Broadcasting, we definitely have a content problem. I'm going to be traveling to scale. We're going to have LinuxFest Northwest. And if things continue in the direction that they're going, I'll have more interviews at companies like Microsoft and others that don't really fit into Linux Unplugged. They don't

fit into LAN. They don't fit into Coder. So I'm going to launch a limited run of Tech Talk today. Something new, just one season. In fact, I'm doing seasons. That's one of them. Whoa. Yeah. I'm stealing that from Open2Podcast. And they invented it and I'm taking it. I'm doing seasons and I'm going to do 10 episodes a season. So I'm just doing 10 episodes and I really would like you to give it a listen because I'm doing seasons, and I'm going to do 10 episodes a season. So I'm just doing 10 episodes, and I really would like you to give it a listen because I'm going to use this as an opportunity to have a fun romp, really just – what did you call it? Self-referential tech coverage. What did you say earlier?

It was almost like it could have been a tagline. Something you liked about Tech Talk today was the fact that it didn't take itself too seriously. It's a good, fun show. I can't remember the words you used, but I should have written them down. And that's what our goal is. We'll have some curry later, and we'll think about that. But because I'm doing a season, I'm going to have a bit of a story arc to it. You know, it's really going to be about getting my butt down to scale. And Noah and I specifically are

going in with some things that we want to accomplish, some objectives ahead of time. Like eating curry? Yeah. Yes, absolutely. That'll be in there as well. So I'm relaunching a show for a limited run. It's just going to be a lot of fun. I'm going to experiment with some stuff. And we're going to talk lifestyle stuff, culture stuff, tech news with somebody that comes with the perspective of the open source community.

So if there's something in there from our perspective, I'm covering it. That'll be the stuff that gets preferential treatment. And it's going to be a fun experiment. And I may try doing a few things in there that you don't expect. So check it out. I would love to have you subscribe. The raw dog RSS feed, plug it into whatever you want. Tech Talk Today or tech talk dot today slash RSS tech talk dot today slash RSS. There is going to be some exclusive content I'll generate for our patrons, too, at the Jupiter Signal Patreon page. Working with seasons sounds interesting. What do you think of that?

You think I'm crazy? No, I think it makes a lot of sense. Ten episodes. Ten episodes up front. Can I ask you a question? Yeah, go ahead. Is this something that you're doing live or is this something that it will be recorded offline and then just published? So a bit of both because predominantly I'm going to be all over the place during these next ten episodes.

Some of it's going to just have to be offline. In fact, I think the majority of it will be offline. There won't even be a YouTube video of it because it's just going to be Chris on the road talking about whatever I'm doing, talking about the news of the day, talking about the events we're going to. It's going to be kind of raw. I like that. I really like that. Yeah, I think that's going to be- Is it like tech vlog today? Yeah, it's going to be kind of a little bit, actually, a little bit like tech vlog today. It's mostly drone reviews, let's be honest.

Yeah. But honestly, I think there's also the perfect opportunity to then have special live events because if we're not doing a live one all the time, like when we do a live one and I'd like to at least do a couple of season, then that's kind of like a special event and we'll make a special event out of it. So I do plan to do some live stuff. But I honestly suspect when Noah was here, he and I worked to install a microphone mount in my truck. I expect I'll be doing a lot of the Tech Talk todays from the passenger seat of my truck while I'm going to do something. I'm going somewhere. I'm on my way to scale. I'm going to an interview.

I'm going to wake up in the morning. I'm going to look at the tech news. I'm going to think about stuff. I'm going to jump in the car. I'll either go park somewhere and do a show or I'll have somebody else driving and I'm going to sit down and I'm going to record an episode. Now that's not to say it's going to sound like shit because you guys know I'm not going to put something out that sounds like crap. So I'm going to also work on that. This will be another way for me behind the scenes to really kind of

iron out the remote recording setup and whatnot, you know, really get some of that stuff dialed in. I like that. And we'll be documenting the journey to scale and kind of uh what that is what that's been like so that'll be where some of the vlog element comes in some of the people i talk to some of the events people we get to you know bump into i'll be in there so i think it's going to be a particular kind of new show at jb even though it's an old show at the same time can i ask a question chris yes will you be changing the show artwork or will you be keeping the thing where you've got the jacket and the shorts and your weird feet stance?

I know, the feet do look weird. I was just looking at the feet, and I'm not quite sure what happened with the feet. I don't really know. Because, Wes, I mean, look, my feet's not that weird. Totally normal. Normal foot. I mean, there's the extra things, but we don't have to get into that. Yeah, it's just webbing.

So what I plan to do is implement a chest-up approach. The artwork. Because it's the weird feet, right? Although, then at the same time, I kind of like it. It's kind of like Noah's dick in his

AltaSpeed logo. It's sort of, you remember the weird feet, you know? So, I learned from noah the savvy businessman that he is you know what people talk about my we're having a conversation about altaspeed and i didn't buy i didn't buy ad spot on on linux unplugged that's right exactly uh but uh poppy if you have um if you have any artwork that you want to mock up for me i'd i'm the last person maybe we can make it just the feet that might be what we need there you go there you go um yeah man so uh scale uh march 8th through the 11th i know i'm just

excited about it i'm curious to see where they go with this thing you know it's uh been going in a certain direction that i wasn't super into and now they've righted the ship and they seem to be sailing in a new direction so i'm curious to go see that but more importantly it's like well where the hell are things going really you've got uh you got that crazy canonical shipping gnome you got elementary os encrypting their drives you got containers for days you've got all these different interests that have kind of really established their places now where's all all of this going? Especially just in the next, I don't know, 10 months, where's this all going for Linux and open source? And those are some of the things that I want to try to answer over the next few weeks on Tech Talk today and on this show. And I believe

that Noah and I will be on the same beat. So you'll hear more about it on Ask Noah as well. I think it's going to be really kind of a fun experiment. And the best part about it is only 10 episodes, right? Like, whew, it's just like, I'll go for it. And then like, you get in, you get out. Yeah. Like, I just, I've never done anything. I'm just gonna do 10 of them and then I'm going to go have curry. I think that's brilliant. What do you think, Noah? Is that crazy? I think there's one crucial part of that missing that you really like. So when you look at the way that you want to do that, I think the important thing is to craft is to get input from outside sources. And I think the best way to do that is to invite me along for the curry.

But other than that, I think it's a good plan. And maybe sometimes do a weekly show with our mumble room. Guys, thank you for making it. I really appreciate it. It was a good show with you. Stick around because the Ask Noah program is coming up, if you didn't know. The Ask Noah show, just moments away. And you can hang out here and join him.

Otherwise, join us live. We do this at 2 p.m. Pacific. The live show usually kicks off around 1.30, 1.45 Pacific. And all of that is converted to the proper time in your local area at jupiterbroadcasting.com slash calendar. And find the Tech Talk Today program, the relaunch at techtalk.today and it's techtalk.today slash RSS for the feed. Give it a listen.

Let me know what you think. We have some special stuff in the works and I don't know. It's fun to bring back. It's back. It's fun to bring back. People, you know, people are still subscribed to that show.

People are still downloading that show. It's still got a subreddit. It needs to come back for even just a bit. Tech Talk yesterday. Tech Talk yesterday, tomorrow at techtalk.today. Go check it out. And then find the calendar for the live shows, our contact page at jupyterbroadcasting.com. And we also have the subreddit, linuxunplugged.reddit.com.

We got all the things. We got all the things. We got all the things. No excuse not to reach out. You got the Ask Noah show coming up, and you can come over here on the Tuesdays and just hang out for a nice old Linux meal. You get the Unplugged program, which is a really nice long live stream. Then you get the Ask Noah show. It's a good Tuesday afternoon. Yeah, we had a long-winded discussion that didn't really answer your questions.

Just ask Noah about it. Just ask Noah. Just ask Noah. Just ask Noah. And then, once you're done listening to all this live stuff, go check out techsnap.systems for Wes and I talking about system administration and network building woes and the Ubuntu podcast as well. And go check out Tux Digital on YouTube because producer Michael is putting out stuff over there.

All right. That concludes the plugs of this week's episode. We're out. You know, every now and then you've got to get them out. You've got to get them out. All right. That concludes the plugs of this week's episode. We're out. You know, every now and then you got to get them out. You got to get them out. Props. It's like a form of therapy.

You just got to get it out. Thank you for joining us, guys. Hope you, and gals, hope you enjoyed the show. Go follow me. I'm at ChrisLAS on the Twitter. We'll be talking about some of our projects.

The network's at Jupiter Signal. That guy right there, he's at West Payne. That's right. I like that. At West. Damn. That's almost as good as bacon, dude.

So good. It might be. I would like to see Payne versus Bacon and see which one wins. Don't forget, speaking of voting, we have the poll in the show notes. Should we go back to IRC or stay on Discord for the live chat and the focus of the show? You decide. Let us know. Let us know.

You can vote. We'll see you right back here next Tuesday I've never installed Linux. You don't need to install that. Don't bother. Don't bother. Don't bother yourself. You got other things to do. Haven't you heard of OS?

It's just the primary platform for your tools. All right. JBtitles.com. Title suggestions. What do you guys think? What should we do? What should we do? JBtitles.com.

Boop-a-boop. Boop-a-boop. Boop-a-boop. Make IRC great again. Metrics talk today. That is a pretty clever combo you came out there with, TechNav. All right, so you all have to go over and subscribe and listen to Tech Talk today at least for one or two episodes, and then let me know what you think.

You've got to give it like a two-episode go because it's going to take me a little bit to find a groove. So go over there and give it a two-episode go for me. Does it be a new RSS feed or will it use the old one? Well, it was going to use the old one, and then there was a bit of a server failure on my part. And as of right now, it's tech talk today. It's tech talk.today slash RSS. The old feed may start working again, and it may not. If you're lucky.

Yeah. I'm sorry. One ping only was my title suggestion in reference to the canonical data collection, which I thought was kind of good, because, you know. I mean, after today, I'm sort of, like, interested in trying to get

one of these either Matrix or Riot to work with IRC. There you go. I'm still trying to figure trying to get one of these, either Matrix or Riot, to work with IRC. There you go. I'm still trying to figure out how. You maniac. So 1 ping only is, of course, I submitted that, so I'm a little particular. I like that, and the Matrix talk today is nice. Matrix talk today.

1 ping only is elegant. I like that part a lot. And it also sort of reinforces the point that it's just one really kind of big data shot. Yeah. But, yeah, I don't know. That's mine, though. I don't really have a strong sense. I would like to see them publish that data.

I would really like to see that data published. I wonder what the granularity will be. Yeah. Yeah. Down to OEMs would be, that's not really what I'd be happy for. It's funny having that Apple thing go automatic. Like when that Apple pop-up first landed in Ubuntu,

people complained and said Ubuntu was more crashy than previous releases. And that's because previous releases didn't have a pop-up that told you something was crashing. And now it does, right? And so there are so many blog posts out there that tell you how to turn that thing off and make Apple go away. And it's so frustrating for me when I'm looking at the errors website and looking at all the crashes and thinking, what are the crashes that we're not capturing? Because people turn that thing off. And so that's why I'm keen at the errors website and looking at all the crashes and thinking, what are the crashes that we're not capturing? Because people turn that thing off. And so that's why I'm keen for that thing to be fully automatic.

So if people tick the box, they just get sent. And then we can look at the crash dumps and we can fix them. Yep. I agree. I agree. Because I actually almost always just dismiss it because I don't want to go through. Because I've had enough of those ask me then to log in or provide an email address or things like that and so I just

I clear it I clear it immediately as soon as I see it because I'm just trying to get something relaunched and get back on air you know but yeah I agree I would be more than happy to let it just stand in the background and not bother me and let me get about my day