LINUX Unplugged - Episode 29: The Klementine Squeeze | LUP 29

Episode Date: February 26, 2014

A cautionary tale for anyone thinking about starting their own Linux distribution, and then we’ll put it all out on the table and discuss our ideas and goals for Howto Linux, and take the live feedback of our virtual LUG.Plus should we trust Valve? Your feedback, and more!

This is Linux Unplugged, your weekly Linux talk show that's just putting it all out there this week. My name is Chris. My name is Matt. Hey there, Matt. I'm totally pumped up. We've got a special guest in studio right now. Hey there this week. My name is Chris. My name is Matt. Hey there, Matt. I'm totally pumped up. We got a special guest in studio right now. Hey there, Chase. Hey, guys. Hey, Chase. Hey, how's it going? Yeah, I'm glad you're here today. Hey, you know, it's a beautiful day. It really is. And the best time to be doing a show is inside when it's a nice day. Yeah, well, at least we have the window cracked so we can get some sort of fresh air. Have

I told you how much I love this effing jam? This music, this Mr. Jankies. Ronald Jankies is the man. I know. That's why I have him on my boobs today. That's not the only reason. I mean, we're going to be talking about how to Linux and brainstorming with our mumble room. You know, I figured if we're doing a show about Linux, why not have some of the preparation and some of the thought that goes into it and some of the logic and reasoning that goes into making a show out in the open, too. So essentially-

Wait, no. Chris. Our source is going to be out there. Not a good idea. No? No, because then you're going to be spreading the secrets of the secret sauce. That's true. And then what's going to happen, Chris, is you're going to get these copycats.

They're going to try to do- Chase, I got to stop you right there. I don't know. I don't know. The secret sauce isn't in the mechanics. Wait, what? It's in the content. Oh, yeah.

That's right. I know. I know. I forgot about that. Sometimes I forget that, too. What? Content? Content? content. Oh, yeah, that's right. I know. I forgot about that. Sometimes I forget that, too. What, content? Yeah, like this week. Content's king. Actually, I'm really kind of excited because we just

got our first test challenge coin in. I felt it in my hands. I touched it. How did it feel, Chase? How did it feel? It was hard, yet smooth. And it felt good to the touch. I'm talking about the coin. How did the coin feel? Oh, the coin was great.

Yeah. Okay, good. Put a bump back. Yeah, thank you. Thank you very much. So if you guys didn't know, I don't know, maybe you live under a rock, that's okay. I won't hold it against you. I'm just a little judgy.

No, I mean, this coin, by the way, the picture doesn't... The coin comes with every last shirt. It does. Every last 300 shirt. And by the way, there's one thing that shirt it does every last 300 and by the way there uh there's one thing that you're not seeing in this picture what's that the other side the other side well the other side we're still perfecting the other side but uh uh we're planning right now to have a the jupiter broadcasting logo on the other side it's

cooler than the other side of the pillow wow that's true though i do agree with you so uh if you've gone over to teespring.com slash last 300 in order to shirt that you'll have one of those there coins very soon. Each shirt comes with a coin until we get to too many shirts. How much time is left on those shirts, Chris? Like two weeks. I'll go check right now. I was going to say, this is one of those things, you guys.

Like 13 days, I think. Remember, there's not going to be another one of these shirts. Nope, this is it right here. This is a limited edition. One week, five days. We've sold 673. We have a goal of 754 to unlock them. Now, this is it right here. This is a limited edition. One week, five days. We've sold 673. We're at it. We have a goal of 754 to unlock them. Now, here's the thing. The goal will be reached.

You don't want to be left out. You think it will? Oh, yeah. Yeah, I think so at this point. You don't want to be left out because if you're left out... You're not going to get a coin for one thing. You won't get a coin. Or a shirt. Or a shirt. Yeah. And not only that, you don't want to be that guy at LinuxFest Northwest if you're coming out. Or maybe just in public.

Do you guys know what a challenge coin is all about? Yeah. Tell me right now. Go ahead. All right. So let's say, for example, you're at a nice establishment to have some drinks. Let's say like a swanky beer joint where I walk in. There's wood paneling everywhere.

Picture it. It's Sicily, 1982. You've got dark mood lights, smoke in the atmosphere. I sit down with a gruff look on my face. You have former baristas that are now working the bar. Right, okay. I'm picturing it right now. You got a nice picture in your underwear? Yeah, it's great. Looks comfy.

So some of your Linux buddies, they come in from the show. You know, hey, they had a long day walking the floor. But how do they know it's really me? Well, they know the beard. Well, I mean, what if I shaved? Well, you're wearing the shirt. And my hair's messed up. You're wearing the shirt first off. Okay, that'd be a clue.

So they walk over to you and say, hey, Chris. And you're like, hey, guys. Hey. And you reach into your pocket. And I've got to find out if they are actually in. Like, do they know? So you reach into your pocket. Right.

And then you pull it out. Yeah. The coin. Right. And then you put it down. Slap it down on the table. And you slap it on the table. Yeah.

Yeah. What if you're that one guy that doesn't have the coin? You know what happens to you? It's embarrassing. Do you know what happens to you? No. You're buying the drinks for the whole group. That's what the challenge is.

The challenge is you need to have the coin. I see. So if I get a Jupiter Broadcasting Last 300 shirt and a challenge card, I'm actually saving money. You're saving money. It is a benefit. It is one of those things. Forget the healthcare. I should have hired you to do shirt marketing, Chase. That would have been great. You're saving money. It is a benefit. It is one of those things. Yeah, I should have hired you to do shirt marketing, Chase. That would have been great.

You're welcome. So we've got – so coming up on the show today, not only are we going to talk about how to Linux, but I did an interview yesterday with Brendan who is working on a new distro called Clementine OS. It's based on Paro OS. And if you might remember, Paro OS was shut down after it was bought by another company, shut down. And then Clementine OS was sort of like the phoenix rising out of the ashes of Paro OS. And then it got into some legal trouble. A lot of speculation, including was Apple behind it, was floating around the web. We didn't cover it because we didn't know the whole story, but we got a chance to talk with one of the guys behind that

whole thing. So we're going to talk about that. And what I got from the interview when I walked away from it was like, oh, this is a warning now that if you're thinking about getting into making your own distribution, there's a whole new class of stuff you have to think about because of the size of the overall Linux ecosystem. And I think if nothing else, walking away from this interview, that's what I took with me. So we'll play that in a little bit. But as is perdition, gentlemen, we should start with our feedback. And there is a great clip that was sent into the show by Jacob. We were recently talking on LAS and on Unplugged about the high amount of commercial development that is now behind the Linux kernel, and that only 20% of Linux kernel development is done by quote-unquote volunteers. Well, Jacob linked us to a great talk

held by Greg KH. Now, if you're not familiar with Greg KH, not only does his last name initial sound like Colonel Hacker, but he's a longtime Colonel Hacker, so it works out really well. And he was holding a talk recently, and he talked about this phenomenon

where a lot of commercial companies are behind Linux development, and I'll play it because Jacob linked us right to it. Who's doing the work? Other people reported 80% of the work done in the Linux kernel is done by companies. Paid contributions. Some people

think it's a bad thing. I think it's really good that 20% is done by people who aren't paid. This is their hobby. The problem with that 20% is if you start doing patches, you will get hired and that will be your job. This is their hobby. The problem with that 20% is, if you start doing patches, you will get hired, and that'll be your job. This used to be my hobby, now I have no hobby.

Other kernel developers have known to burn out and start other hobbies, and then they turn that into a company, and then they go back to kernel development. It's happened a lot. I think that's a great point. That's essentially the point he makes there, is if you're a hobbyist, and you're doing this this and you're actually good at it and you're working at that level at the Linux kernel level with guys like Greg and Linus Torvalds, it's likely not going

to be a hobby for very long. And that's a big part of why there is a small amount of hobby developers on there because, like he said, it makes sense too. You see it in a lot of things. Whenever somebody starts as a hobby, I started podcasting as a hobby, and now I do it as my day job. And it is true, in a sense, too, that I don't really have much of a hobby anymore. That happens to you, though. Yeah, yeah. It's just the way of things.

But great point, and a big thank you to Jacob for not only finding that talk, but for linking us right to that time so we could share that with the rest of the audience. Okay, so Roy writes in. He says, I've got some ideas on why Linux is having troubles in the enterprise. Which, I didn't really feel like this is a big problem, but he's talking about specifically on the desktop. He's not talking about on the server. He says, hey, Chris and Matt and Assembled, esteemed Mumble Room attendees, and of course, Chase. Oh, yeah, of course. Yeah, I see that he said that. Yeah. I wanted to comment about a topic you guys discussed

in last week's Linux Unplugged about what could possibly be the reason that the Linux desktop did not get into the enterprise yet. So the obvious reason is the business application support, but web-based applications tend to allow enterprises to provide the business applications via all the browsers. However, the most critical business applications

that business enterprises use, Linux has failed to deliver, is a decent mail client, quote-unquote, that works with Exchange. This is the first entry point to the enterprise. We need a mail client that will be able to sync with Exchange. Let's take mobile mail apps. The only reason mobile mail is getting into the enterprise

is that the mail client is able to sync up with Exchange. And I would agree that was a critical feature for Android and iOS. He goes on to say, for any other business application, even a native one, there's a decent solution like Zen Desktop. But if I can't get my own mail client to run natively on my Linux Desktop, what's the point of the Linux Desktop at all? Keep up the good work. Roy. Boy, well, you know, there's two things to consider here. First of all, the business you're working with, if you're using Exchange, you can use the web client. Actually, if you use it

within Firefox, it's actually, even under Linux, it's actually quite usable. Yeah, and the later versions too. That's true. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, exactly. The later versions. Now, older versions of Exchange, it's not pretty, but it does work, and that is to use Evolution and the Exchange connector. Right. And really emphasizing it's not pretty, but it does work. And that is to use evolution and the exchange connector. Right.

Uh, and, and, and really emphasizing it's not pretty and really emphasizing older versions because it's definitely pretty hit and miss. Yeah. Not really a great solution, which brings me back to going back to the web client. Honestly, you know, if you're going to be in an exchange area, I mean, I don't know. I mean, I guess you could run outlook in like a VM or something. I, it's just, it's messy over or something. Yeah. Cause I mean, I work for Microsoft shop and I use exchange all the time in a, in or something. It's just, it's messy. Yeah, or Crossover or something. Yeah, because I mean, I work for Microsoft Shop, and I

use Exchange all the time in a browser. It's not really that bad. Chase, have you, when you worked at Nielsen, did they use Exchange there? Were you an Outlook user? Yeah, yeah. It was heavily embedded, and we also had to use them. It was so embedded that we used it on our BlackBerrys and then onto the iPhone. I mean, it was just like,

it's so ugly. And I wonder, is that going to be the case for, you look at like Google Apps and Zimbra Mail and a lot of these things, to me, Exchange seems to be the solution for a lot of people

that want a local mail system. But as a lot of people go with a hosted mail system, Exchange just seems like one of the many options. But when you abstract away the actual hardware and you're not managing the software and you're only interfacing it with some sort of remote sync

protocol it doesn't have to be exchanging no it doesn't no there's many different options out there now so it might not be something that in the long run matters as much but it definitely exists today and i could see like if you have to emulate your one of the programs you use the most it is kind of silly to then use linux if you're stuck with that so i see what roy's saying i don't know i think i think what we can identify, especially through all the feedback that we've gotten, is there's a lot of little things, or in some cases they're not so little,

but it's not one thing. It's not Outlook. It's not AutoCAD. It's not any one particular thing that's holding it back. It's everybody has something that they've built around the Windows platform that they just now have as an expectation of doing business. But all of those things eventually in technology sunset.

And so Linux will be there. That's true. Although it's really tough to get through to a Microsoft shop. I found that it's very challenging to try and actually get through that because it's like, well, you know, we could go that way, but we know what to expect if we go ahead and suck it up and pay the licensing. Yeah. That's the problem.

Well, we got these guys here and they know how to do it already exactly if we ever want to fire them because we don't want to pay them enough we can just hire some other microsoft guy to come in here and run this for us and it's cheaper to pay the licensing and the retraining our existing folks and i mean i think that's a lot of it too yeah yeah i i i think there's um i think that there's that's part of the momentum equation that windows has on the desktop and server in enterprise is that staff momentum. You have staff training. Yeah. But to be fair here, here I am going to be doing a how-to Linux show.

I don't know. Maybe I'm the one of the minority who has a freaking open mind about becoming retrained and becoming cross-trained and learning more about more operating systems. There are a lot of Windows guys out there who are just so focused in on Windows. It's like, F everything else. I'm a Windows guy. I'm like, whatever happened to being educated and learning about everything else? And not to offend everybody in the audience, but I also see the same thing happen with Cisco guys,

where they get Cisco trained and then they're so focused on Cisco they can't see outside of the Cisco product space. And so everything's a Cisco brand. Everything's a Cisco solution, a Cisco implementation. And there is something to becoming an expert at one thing and really deeply understanding it. But at the same time, I feel like it's a little better if you can zoom out a little bit and generalize a little more and sort of see new trends and sort of take advantage of new technologies. It should be honestly about using the best tool for the job. Right. There you go. Regardless of operating system and software package. I completely agree. Speaking of the best tool for the job, this would be a great spot to mention our sponsor this week, DigitalOcean. Go over to

digitalocean.com and take advantage of our promo code Linux UnpluggedFebruary. It's only going to be working for a little bit longer. February's almost over, actually. It's over Friday. Yeah, that's not true. They'll keep it working for you. Digital Ocean loves you guys. But seriously, if you don't know about Digital Ocean, they're a simple cloud hosting provider dedicated to offering the most intuitive and easy way to spin up a cloud server. Users can create a

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A CPU, and this is the part I love, a terabyte of transfer. Jeez, man. I know. It's just a fixed cost. You know exactly what you're going to get. You know exactly what your bill's going to be. The value is right there. It's super simple.

And by the way, DigitalOcean also has hourly rates if you want to test an application. I recently put up a Pastebin competitor on there. I've got a BitTorrent sync for all our unfiltered supporter shows. I've got a calendar I'm throwing up on there. And I've been getting emails from folks in the audience telling me what they're using it for. I'm getting all kinds of great ideas. People are throwing up their XMPP server on there. Another guy's got his personal resume up there.

It's kind of like an interactive website. There's tons of great things you can do at DigitalOcean because they have this droplet system where you can deploy a droplet of like, you can take an Ubuntu 1204 machine with Apache and MySQL are ready to go or an Archbox or a Centbox or a Fedora box with Docker pre-installed and you can load up your own Docker images that you've built locally on your own machine. It's really great. And if you use that promo code Linux Unplugged February, they'll give you a $10 credit. So you can try out that $5 rig for two months. DigitalOcean has data center locations in New York, San Francisco, Amsterdam, and Singapore.

Their interface is simple. Their control panel is intuitive. And power users can replicate that control panel with their straightforward API. So go use the promo code Linux Unplugged February over at DigitalOcean.com. See what I've been talking about. It's so cool to see Linux technologies be utilized by a company like this. They pair it with tier one bandwidth. They put it on top of some SSDs and they really let KVM rip. They got them super tuned in. It's really great. It's an awesome experience and it's super great for it. Super

easy to manage. DigitalOcean.com, Linux Unplugged February. Go try them out. Get that $5 rig for two months. And it's a great training experience too, because this imaging system lets you back it up, and if you screw something up, you can restore right back to it, just like you could with VirtualBox or something. Only this is a real machine up in the cloud that you can throw things at, test in production. It's awesome. DigitalOcean.com,

Linux Unplugged February, and a big thank you to DigitalOcean for sponsoring Linux Unplugged. Nice. So speaking of transitionary technologies, Dwayne wrote in with a response to something our guest last week, Michael Hall, said, where he wrote in. He says, hi, Chris, Matt, and Chase.

I really enjoyed episode 20. What's that say right there? Wait, it does say Chase. It does say Chase. It does say Chase. Yeah. It's there. He said he really enjoyed episode 28. It does say Chase. Yeah. He says... It's there. He says he really enjoyed episode 28. It was eye-opening.

Michael made a point about the major players not having identical versions of their operating systems on both tablet, mobile, or the desktop, except for what Ubuntu was trying to do. This is about to change quickly for Android. I recently downloaded Android x86, and it runs well on my laptop which is a dell inspron m5010 with an amd 2 gigahertz triple core processor 4 gigabytes of ram and a 500 gigabyte hard drive and a amd 4200 graphics he says with more work i can see it as a real quick os to go to for anybody with an intel or amd class processor with an nvidia ati or intel graphics as long as you have a gmail account you're good to go.

We've talked about it before on last, but you can find it at android-x86.org. Matt or Chase, have either one of you played with the Android x86 project where you can actually download an ISO? No, I have not. I've downloaded it, but I never actually installed it because I was toying with the idea, but I found that there's certain limitations to

it as far as what you can do with it. It's something I want to dive into. I've played with it a little bit and Android is just really not meant for a desktop. I could see it maybe with a skin. It was tried before. It didn't like Motorola have their, what was it, Atrix, right?

Where you could dock it and it becomes a computer and a phone. But they heavily modified the UI in that use case. Yes, they did. And so this is sort of the secret sauce to the Ubuntu Touch approach is this UI transmogrification when you switch into the different use cases. Look it up, kids. You got the transmogrifier that sits in there.

It's a kernel extension. You got to compile it or use DKMS if you just want to be able to update your kernel on the go. It'll just rebuild your module for you automatically. And then when you plug it into your TV or your laptop or whatever it is, it just transmogrifies. Right? Don't I have that right?

Transmogrify. Yeah, I think I got that right. Yeah. And I think that's a little bit better of a solution, but we'll see how far they can close that gap. What the question will be is our desktop, this is my main concern, and we'll see, are desktop applications in that perfect world going to live in this uncanny valley where they're not quite a desktop app, but they're not quite a mobile app,

and they're just not quite there yet, and it's kind of hard to really put your finger on what's not quite there about it yet, but you can just kind of feel it. We'll see if that ends up happening. If they can avoid that scenario, I'm looking forward to it. But Android x86, I think for that to take off, Google's not going to make it happen. It's going to take a company that could really own

that and unfortunately have to put some kind of UI on top of it. And then would you even get Google to stamp it with their Google mobile services? Never going to happen. I wouldn't think so. Not unless they got some really big player who was really like buddy-buddy with Google. All right, well, why don't we do a little Valve update?

Ooh, yes. First thing is not that the Unfilter, or Unfilter Show. Chase, look at you making me say that. See, this is what happens when you only have me here for Unfilter. Oh, now look. Oh, getting crap. I'm getting crap. No, I was going to say we don't try to break news on Unplugged, but we are going to break a little news today because Portal 2 has just come out.

Portal 2 beta for Linux was released today. You can go check it out. And on that whole Valve vein, Anno wrote in. He said, I'd like to comment on the VAC topic from last week's show. Now, we covered this last week, this little DNS hashing, scanning that Valve was doing, trying to catch people cheating Valve games. He says, I manage a medium-sized game server, and we have been fighting hackers and cheaters for years with a VAC-like system.

These cheats usually work at a low level by injecting their code into the game memory, so you either have to combat them at this level or detect them higher up and target their specific behavior. In this case, it was DNS entries. The inherent problem of all the anti-cheat systems is you can't open source them or disclose too much information about them and what they actually do because hackers would use this information to implement a workaround. If Valve said they'd check your DNS cache loud and clear, hackers would only need a

few days to change their cheats and not two weeks. Instead, you'd probably agree to this in the fine print you signed up when you agreed to the Steam terms of service. At the end of the day, you have to ask yourself whether you'd rather play games with cheaters or allow Valve to scan your computer in questionable ways. Personally, I'm completely fine with this because playing against cheaters frustrates me to no end. Best regards. I know. Hmm.

Yeah, I don't quite know where to fall down. I'm not comfortable with Valve scanning my DNS cache. I'm not either. I mean, but at the same time, you know, if you're doing anything kind of weird, you should probably use a different computer. Just put that out there. Yeah, I mean, I'm not worried about so much that.

I just don't like the principle of it. It feels like an invasion of privacy. But what is the solution here, though? I mean, what is... A dedicated computer for Valve.

I mean, really. I mean, I think that's... Sandboxing? Yeah, sandboxing would be okay. I don't know. Maybe. It feels like this is actually

a limitation in the underlying operating system privilege model and not maybe necessarily and so and and the only solution for companies like valve is to come up with their own ways to sort of circumvent those limitations i i don't i don't know i i understand this is what they have to do and maybe this is just the this is just the trade-off gamers have to make is okay

my games are going to be wrapped up in DRM. Okay, I can't, I don't quite own them. They're actually stored in some sort of cloud storage that lets me install them when I want to, assuming my account hasn't been closed. Okay, I'll buy off on those things. I can accept those limitations. And now you're asking me to also accept the idea that, well, this last week it was DNS cache scanning, but how long until it's all the processes running on my box? Or, well, now we need to watch your network packets because now they're being really tricky. And where did we draw the line?

Because it seems like reading DNS cache, I realized they were just hashing it and then sending a hash to Valve. I get that. But where do we start saying, OK, that's too far? If we're OK with the DNS hashing, what are we not okay with? Screen grabs, just straight up screen grabs on my machine? Do you need to monitor my machine when I'm not playing games so that way you can catch me installing the cheat before I ever run the game?

Is that what we're going to come to? Well, you know, like Punkbuster, a great example, is that actually takes screenshots of gameplay. Yeah. You know, so that kind of situation's already been happening to gamers for a long period of time. Okay, so at what point do they need to analyze every setup.exe that runs on a Windows box? They do that.

They actually, Punkbuster actually does monitor what you're running in the background. That's so creepy. I think it's been doing that for a long time, hasn't it? It's been doing it a long time. You know what I say to that? Go ahead. Get it out of here. That's what I say to that? Go ahead. Get it out of here. That's what I say to that. That is no good.

See, for myself, it's the same way. It's like, okay, TSA kind of thing. Don't like TSA. I don't fly. I mean, there's nothing I can do about it at this point. I think it's the same thing here. I can either not use the game, or I can set up a dedicated box. Do what I do, Matt. Just get the $50 Fast Pass, and TSA

does not race you. Does Valve offer a $50 FastPass, and TSA does not race you. Does Valve offer a $50 FastPass? No, unfortunately they don't. Yeah, there you go. And that's driver's license. I just wish they could be – I realize they can't because of the nature of what they're trying to combat. I just wish they could be more transparent about what they're doing. But, yeah, the transparency is the key.

People need to know exactly what they're doing. But then again, it goes back to the whole thing. If you give out too much information, then the hackers know what to do. Right. And it is kind of a marketing buzzkill. Say, hey, this is great, by the way. We're totally scanning your stuff. Yeah, that is not a great bullet point, is it? No. No, it really

isn't. I mean, from a marketer's point of view, that would just suck. You know, the other thing, like Danny Tech is saying, is this is why things like the Humble Bundle and this is why it's really important that Valve doesn't own this entire thing because even though we like them today, when they have SteamOS, they can go even further than they have in the past.

And, you know, it's good to have alternative options. Yeah, this is true. This is true. Alright, well that concludes our Valve update. Yes. I just wanted to have an extension. I gotta go. I gotta go play some Half-Life. I'll be back later. Yeah, it does kind of make me want to play a game when I hear it. All right, well, before we get to the how-to Linux discussion,

why don't we play my interview with Brendan, who is working on Clementine OS, which is kind of on pause right now. So we'll play that, and then we'll come back. So I'll have links to this, too, in the show notes if you guys didn't catch all of the drama that went on. But if you guys remember, this happened about 30 days ago. The developer of ParairOS posted on Google Plus that the Mac-like distribution had been sold to another company and as part of that sale could no

longer be downloaded. So then from that, the Clementine OS project was started. Brendan was an enthusiast and an advocate for the distribution. He wanted to sort of continue it in his own way with some modifications to make it better. And he received a letter from an American company that forced him to abandon the project. He did later say it wasn't Apple, but there were still some people that thought it might have been. So he joined me yesterday to get the details on that. I wanted to get you on because, you know, a little while back, there was a few stories going around on the net that I didn't really feel like we got a good picture on what was actually going on. And I thought maybe we could start there and then kind of work our way out. So were you one of the guys that worked on ParoS or worked with the ParoS project?

No, I just was using it, liked the OS, and got discontinued. So I wanted to continue the project. So what you were creating was sort of, you essentially cloned a lot of that project and started your own OS based on that. Yes. Okay. And that was called, or is called, Clementine OS, right? Yeah. And it was Clementine, and then we had trouble.

So now when I say Clementine, I replace the C with a K now. Okay. We're Clementine Music Player. So this is still around and it's still alive? Right now it's just a private thing for just me because the site, I had some apparently copyrighted files and stuff of PairOS and got into some legal issues. So can you tell me a little,

what happened with those legal issues so can you tell me a little what happened with those legal issues was it okay well we had um if you went to our download page in pair os we had the same exact download cd cover and everything we just replaced it with our images and everything well that was fine but then when we went and we're trying to replace the other images when we uh pictures of like the laptops running the OS. We tried cropping out the screenshot built-in and cropping one of ours over it, and it didn't really work. So we just posted it with their screenshot, and it had the Pear logo and kind of got into legal issues there. To clarify though, were legal issues brought to you from the Pear OS project or by the company that bought Pear OS?

The company that bought it. But you can't say who they are, right? No, I can't. Is it a company I'm familiar with? Yeah. If you're in the Linux world, yes. Yeah. Okay.

Interesting. So, and I don't think it's been made public who bought Paroes, but so that company contacted you and said, you need to stop using our branding. Yeah. They like got an email and it was from a lawyer all legal issues and terms and i was so i just immediately took it down i didn't want to get in any trouble i see so they're not necessarily taking up issue with clementine os they're more taking up issue with uses of their assets so does that mean the project might not be dead um it's actually trying, working on trying to get more, uh, some, um, coders into it.

So yeah, I'm trying to bring it back. Okay. All right. So 100% it. So, uh, I think, you know, a lot of people might remember Paro S it looks a lot like, uh, um, uh, uh, I guess it was 10. Yeah. And, uh, is, is Clementine OS or Clementine going to, with a K going to be essentially

continuing that transit, uh, tradition? Yes, but we're probably going to, with a K going to be essentially continuing that transit tradition? Yes, but we're probably going to go with a different look than what pair did. Yeah. Like give me a hint. Um, well, it's going to use the latest gnome and the 14.04 based,

but it's going to have the same window style and everything, but it's going to have kind same window style and everything but it's going to have kind of like an elementary os bar clear but it's going to have the our clementine logo and stuff where the pair used to be so you what is it that like current distros on the market today lack that you feel like you know so when i think of something like this i think of for example elementary os uh what would you say those types of distributions lack that inspire you to go on and go out and create your own distribution well what i think it lacks is um when i try installing elementary os everyone says it's stable when i try installing on any of my systems i always have issues

it just it does not work i have tons of issues with it so it's that old i gotta i got an itch and i need to scratch a problem yeah so it takes a bunch of configuration to get it working and a lot of people i i think it's from and my grandpa my dad's side where he's a into linux he thinks it's because it uses an older kernel yeah so that's where a lot of people thinks it's at yeah um so i want to try to have the latest kernel on this always have the latest so you still have we would be built on top of ubuntu yes but i will update the kernels myself yeah yeah well that sounds pretty interesting uh and it's it's been a story that hasn't quite exactly faded away so it's good to get a little idea of what happened around the whole paros

situation and and the one thing i think all those distrust lack is where ParoS filled it in was like, all of its easy-to-use programs, like a lot of people have issues with PPAs, adding those in Terminal. Well, they introduced a program called PPA Manager and it added and removed and installed programs with ease. And all that's GPL code, right? Yeah, that's all GPL. So yeah, we are going to recreate those programs.

Yeah, good. Our own image. That was an interesting idea. code right yeah that's all tpl so yeah we are going to recreate those programs yeah good our own image that was an interesting idea i that's a great example of something that para has brought to the table aside from the aesthetics that look a lot like the mac is that it had it was solving some of these gaps and other distributions have attempted like mint has attempted to solve these problems too but so it sounds like you know one of the things i really wanted to get the bottom of in this conversation doesn't sound like um they were necessarily going after you for having a clone of the distribution but just for art assets that are being used so it sounds like if you guys get everything in place you're in the clear to continue development yes and that's why we changed the name we just put a

k in front of it because we also got legal notice from the clementine project for the music players so i changed the name real quick and they're they're okay it. We emailed them with the name change, and they said, you can keep the Clementine name. Yeah, just place it with a K. We're okay with that. So that worked out. Oh, good. This is a fair warning to anybody thinking about launching into this kind of stuff.

You got to go. You have to think about everything before you name it and all this. You have to Google if there's any names out there. Exactly. Yeah, you really do. You've got to be careful. Well, good. I just wanted to kind of get the story straight.

Is there anything else you want to touch on before I run? No, I don't. The one thing I want to say is everyone keeps saying Apple bought it, and they did not buy it. Right. Just to say that. Not Apple bought it. Now, did you feed that a little bit by making a joke online? Did you crack some jokes that people kind of took too seriously?

A bunch of people in the Parallelist community were, oh, Applebot. And then posting things to articles like Applebot Parallelist. And I'm sitting there like, it has nothing to do with Apple. They're not big enough. They would have to be bigger than Ubuntu. And they're not. Yeah. Well, I thought that might be the case. But that was pretty funny the way that kind of lit up online. So it's good to get that clarification too. Just rumors. Yeah.

Very good, sir. Well, thanks for coming on and clearing things up for us. All right. So I wanted to – I thought sort of the takeaway I had from that chat was, holy crap, it's harder to make a distro these days than it used to be. And you see he stepped into an art landmine, and then he got contacted by another project in their name. And none of it's all that surprising in retrospect, but it's something you definitely got to think about. And I think a lot of people, they sit down to make a Linux distro. They don't really – they don't consider this kind of stuff.

I don't know. I think the main thing to really consider here, too, is that it's a little bit like ripping DVDs. If you're doing it in the quiet realm of your own home or your own home office or even your own office, you probably are fine. But as soon as you put that out on the internet for the masses, trademarks, copyrights, various registered stuff, you really do have to do your homework. And Google is not going to cut it. You'll actually need to really do a proper search. Yeah. Yeah.

It's more than just a Google search, right? Good point. All right, well, before we get to the discussion about how to Linux, I want to thank Ting.com for sponsoring this week's episode of Linux Unplugged. What is Ting.com? Ting is mobile that makes sense. My mobile service provider and Matt's mobile service provider. Oh, yes.

Rocking Ting for a while now. Here's how you get started. Go to linux.ting.com. You could be like Mr. Chase, who was just over here experimenting with the Ting SIM just a few minutes ago. Yes. Pulling the Ting SIM out of my Nexus 5

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over at ting.com slash blog, where they have videos posted frequently with Ting staff members. Today, they put up an interview with one of their executives. Brad, what he thinks about making prepaid Ting accounts, where you pre-fill a Ting account and then you just kind of run through that. And he talks, he hints a little bit about some cool stuff Ting has coming up, too. And I love staying informed and in the loop about the companies that I'm voting with, with my dollar. I like to know what they're actually up to. And this is a great example of how Ting keeps really keeps you informed on what they have coming up. You're not sort of left

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and a big thank you to Ting for sponsoring Linux Unplugged. You know, once I'm out of my contract, because right now I'm stuck in a contract. Once I'm out, I'm jumping. You should. I mean, I want to make it happen. If you get the itch beforehand, they have that early termination relief. It looks $75 per line.

And they'll apply it right to you. That'll pay for like Ting for like months. Once I get to that threshold where I don't have to. You do it, dude. You do it. I think it's like what, six or 12 months out. Because, you know, they knock $10 off every month. They try to get you to stick with them for a little while.

It's the worst. And Ting just is like, you know, we're not doing any of that. No. We're going to get rid of that. That's awesome. All right. So let's bring in our virtual lug here. And let's start a little around the horn about the How To Linux show we have coming up.

We announced it in the last 300. And we've got some work. We're working on like several things at once with the show. Yes. A lot of work. I mean, more work that is being done in the pre-planning of this show than probably any other show that I've ever done, ever. Every new show I launch, it's more and more every time. And what's crazy about this, so this is kind of serving as like we're just going to put essentially a lot of our ideas and concepts behind making this show on the record.

That way down the road when this show has been out there for a while, people can go back to this and sort of get an understanding of its roots. And the reason I want to do this is I would be really thrilled if eventually HowToLinux could be looked upon as another source of living Linux documentation, in a sense. So we have a lot of options and outlets out there, you know, HowToForge, there's Stack Exchange websites, there's the Linux Documentation Project, there's Linux Questions, there's all these sites and they're all really good and they all serve a purpose. I would like to not replace any of those, but add to those another medium, another way for people who are sitting down at the computer and they want to solve something. I want everybody who has no idea what Linux is to everybody who knows what Linux is and knows they can accomplish that

task and they just want to get it done. Yeah. So to really understand how to solve that particular problem, what I realized is discoverability is going to be a huge, huge, huge aspect of this show. Huge. Because it's got to be people are like sitting down at YouTube and they're looking for a guide on how to do something they're sitting down at google and i think part of that i think a key part of that is going to be keeping it to a short length like i'm talking 15 minutes no more than 30 minutes per episode we're going to get to the

point we're going to show you how yeah because you want somebody who's like browsing a list of results if they see an hour-long show they're going to look at that and go, oh, I got to get this problem solved. I can't burn an hour watching these guys jerk off in front of the camera. I want my problem solved, right? And I think just mentally, that's a blocker, where if you see 15 minutes on that video and this is a problem you want to solve, that's 15 minutes of time well spent.

It's a totally different value equation, in my opinion. Yep. And every question that we bring to the table for the show, we're going to give it the same care and same quality as the next question, meaning we're not going to shortchange a question just because it could be a little bit more difficult or a little bit easier. We're going to give it the same care. And that's the kind of envision that I have in my head for this show where it's going to be solid it's going to be good where you're not going to have to think about right if it's in the title that's what you're getting that's what you're going to get you're not going to have to search maybe halfway through the video to find the real topic it's going to be boom right

in your face yeah and i the other thing i think combined with that though is i like the idea of i don't know if these two things are a conflict. So I'd love to hear what the mumble room thinks about this. I also like the idea of a multi-part series. So part one, you take a topic and then you break it down into chunks and you say, here's the introduction. Here's starting at ground zero, like, you know, set up and pour your foundation. Here's the next part where you're now building on top of that foundation. Now here in part three, we're actually putting it in production.

And then in part four, here's how you secure it, lock it down. And if you have it internet facing, you're not going to, you know, expose your home network to attack. And this way you don't have to worry about, all right, all right. You can watch one piece if you're only interested in that one piece. And you don't have to worry about, all right, well, I'm about, what, 15 minutes in. I have to remember where I was. And then when I come back and watch it, you don't have to worry about that.

Or if you decide, okay, I'm going to watch the building part, and then in a month I'll come back and watch the securing part. Right. And so I don't know, though, and I'd like to hear the mumble room here. I don't know if these two things are a conflict. Is it a super short show, but then also broken out into multi-parts? Do those things go together? Conflict if you do it in a situation where the multi-part series is not on a continuous basis. So let's say the show is weekly.

One week comes out with an episode that starts a series. The next week is not the continuation of that series. Instead, there's a separate section on the website where you get each video separated. So it's not like someone goes in and says, hey, I want to watch this, but then they see that that's not something they want to watch. They're not going to just skip a whole month of videos that apply to that series. I'm trying to track back. So what you're saying is, so one week comes out, that episode is the introduction video

and all the other videos associated with it are released at the same time? No, they don't have to necessarily be the same time, but they should be on the same page or the same section. So the next week, it's a different topic.

So if someone's not interested in that topic, they won't just skip the continuous weeks until the series over okay so how do you think youtube playlists could play into this well i think like if you have a multi-part series then you could go ahead and throw those into a playlist and have that playlist a part of the account you know i'm saying where people can go if they want to watch the whole thing they can if they just want to watch a certain part of it like the 15 minute segments you're talking about then yes they could they have that option they could do it both ways and fate you wanted to kind of mention it from a new user perspective well when i was a new user i didn't even know about the resources that exist in order to find how to solve my problems and you

kind of get directed towards the forums and you may or may not get responses and then you have to read documentation that contains a whole lot of jargon you're not familiar with so just having a video in the first place is was when i started using links a few years ago that was the best option for me but most of these videos they weren't very professional and they were scattered it's not like they did them for as a job they just did them when they wanted to show somebody how to do something so even if i mean having a concise video is a wise choice, but even if they were a little bit longer, I think a lot of people would get benefit from it

just because it shows them how to do something the right way the first time. Yeah, the thing is, I think part of the reason why, you know, we've been looking at the particular time frame of 50 to 30 minutes is, you know, we're very conscious of the audience and how, you know, people have busy lives, and, you know, they don't want to have to sit in front of their computer for an hour to watch a video or a how-to video. You want to get to the point. And also, attention spans sometimes can drift off after 30 minutes or so. So we want to quick hit you, and we're trying to figure out you know how do you do a large project

and spread that out i mean obviously we're going to be shooting these yeah we don't want to have to like skimp and like right and like uh and like sort of gloss over certain details because we could i mean if we're only going to give an entire topic 30 minutes we could probably fit that into an episode of last but we want to be able to feature something that you know just as just as a total random example but let's say it was, you know, setting up a LAMP stack, which I don't think would be top on our list, but let's just say that's one of them. Wouldn't it be great to actually start at like the very beginning, you know, get that system loaded up, get those packages installed, get those

dependencies, get all that figured out, get your web server set up, get your modules figured out, and that's, you know, separate episodes. And then at the end of it, you secure that thing down. And then maybe, okay, though this this is more work but the other thought that crossed our mind was when it airs because really what we're trying to build up as a back catalog so we're looking at this from the perspective of people are coming across this for years down the road not just you know that week but so they would air in a weekly basis and at the end of that set so maybe it's a three episode set or a or a four-episode set of how to do something, then one single video in like a master RSS feed of like completed episodes where everything is just in one long connected video could be published separately.

So people would have an option to watch the individual stages as they come out, or they could wait till the end of the whole run and watch one contiguous video. You can say like, you know, episodes five through nine is about doing X, you know, things like that. And at the end of that run, they're all available as one single download or individually. Yeah. But if there's someone who doesn't have an interest in that particular topic, that means four episodes that they're not going to watch. Well, right. Well, and that's the thing though. I mean, we're going to be doing a how to Linux show and that's the thing though i mean we're gonna be doing a how to linux show and and that's one of those things where we're gonna run into i think regardless of what it is right but instead of having the four episodes where people are that one topic that people are not going to watch you could have different episodes that they would have different topics that would get more people watching it but how do you have how do you have the nature of the show i mean

to do stuff and people aren't going to be interested in a lot of it. That's true. A lot of people aren't. But if you do a series in the sense of episode five, part one, part two, and part three, you still get the series separation, the part separation, but you don't have to have a train of a month of people not being interested in the show, and they might forget it at that point. But at that point, why even slice it up? I mean, if you're going to do it in that route, say 5A, 5B, and 5C, there's really no point in slicing it up. It causes more work to be done in the production side

and more work to be done in the actual shooting side. Right. So two things. I think the number one thing, which is just based on just experience, is if we were developing an application and you could list out all the features of that application, the number one feature has to be short length, I think. Just because that's like you're not getting a lot of people in the door unless it's short. So you kind of – so I think that's the number one hard point we're up against, and that's just based on discoverability data that I've just watched over the years. And the second thing to that end is I kind of feel like there is definitely that scenario where people are not going to be interested in the how-to run for that period. But at the same time, I don't really see a great solution to that problem.

I don't really see a great solution to that problem. It kind of seems like this is just going to be the nature of this kind of show because if you break it out like we're talking about, you're not going to get around that. And the problem is the benefit of sort of taking it slow is we can incorporate people's questions into the set as we're going. So that way, like if we miss something in one set, by the time we're recording the next set, like the, you know, so say we record episode one and two back to back. And then by the time we sit down to record episode three and four

to continue that, we can incorporate people's questions and sort of make the how to even better. But the other thing it lets us do is it really lets us give air to the topic and really let it like, let's look, if we had to cram, I guess what I'm trying to say is if we could take one topic and, and really just serve that topic for four episodes in a stretch, we're going to get to all the nooks and crannies of that topic. Whereas if we have to do a completely new set every single week, just the production demands of pumping that out will mandate that not as much time is spent on that topic. not as much time is spent on that topic. Chris, I know you thought about doing another show at some point, but have you ever thought maybe doing two parts per week,

maybe like one on Tuesday and one on Thursday or something? Yeah, we are kind of considering that too. The production is harder there, but it's something we're kind of kicking around as that might be a way to sort of speed the process up. Also, you've got to keep in mind, too, you might want to do very distro-specific things, too, like make an entire series about one specific distro. So you can have an entire open-series-related show

doing build-server stuff, things like that. Now, I've got to ask a question here. Obviously, here's the noob of me coming into play. Would that be because you have a preference to that particular version of Linux, or is that because you think that would be a more generalization for the viewer? Because the one thing I want to be very, very careful about is saying, well, I think this particular version of Linux is better than this particular version of Linux, and then you have infighting

for people who will have their own favorite versions and distros. I've always kind of pictured rotating around. That's what I picture too. Wait, let Popey get a chance, because he's been wanting to say something. Go ahead, Popey. Sorry, let me just interrupt playing Portal 2 on Linux.

Hold on a second. That gets it. There we go. Yeah, yeah. Very good. I'm inclined to agree with Ron. Actually, I like the idea that you – episode one starts a series on a particular topic,

and you could do what a lot of – I've seen Unity 3D introduction videos and Minecraft videos do, where they record for a significant chunk of time to give the topic plenty of detail and go into real depth. But you break it up. You just break it up into 10-minute slots, and you cut it and put it out as a playlist. Now, the first episode goes out as episode one, and then, as you've said, 1A, 1B, 1C. And then the following week, there's some completely different topic. It's not related to the previous week.

It's not a continuation from the previous week. There's no dependency on you having watched any of the previous episodes. It's something new and fresh. dependency on you having watched any of the previous episodes it's something new and fresh and and that way you fulfill the being able to go in depth on a topic you can punch out lots of episodes because you record it all in one long one hour stint but chop it up into pieces um so you you know you get the continuation of a playlist and the thread of one topic um but you also get the benefit that you don't have to keep recording lots of different episodes that nobody is going to watch because they're all on a theme that nobody's interested in the question so question here uh playlists are

very youtube friendly of course but remember this is also going to be a downloadable show. Right. And so if I, for example, in my podcatching feed had 1A, 1B, 1C, and 1D, that's four things that are in my feed instead of one episode. Mm-hmm. So how would that be handled? I would like to kind of go against Popey's idea. I would say if we're going to stick to one topic a week, two parts one on like yeah one day and then another day of the week to see still get that community feedback and questions that you can answer as chris wanted to do yeah the problem is i don't want to have i don't want to have to wait a week to find out part two if this if this is an in-depth

thing i don't want to have to you know i want the immediacy of being able to go into plenty of detail about the entire topic if I have time to do it. I don't want to have to have a 10-minute topic and then wait a week for the next 10 minutes. I'm going to zone out. So, Ick, why don't you chime in with sort of – you had a comment about the nature of podcasting. Yes, it's basically an on-demand medium. about the nature of podcasting yes it's basically an on-demand medium so what you're gonna have is people picking and choosing what they want anyhow uh whether you know they're going to want to watch this whole series on a particular topic or they're going to want to skip over that and just wait for the next one sadly you know you're not going to be able to please all the people all the time

with that that's true. Q5, you had a comment about the distro. Yeah, I think if you use a distro, like let's say we're talking about how to set up Nginx and OwnCloud on a box somewhere where we're using Debian as our example. We can run the whole how-to with using

say Debian as the example, and then at the very end, have a short blurb that says, okay, now if you're using Arch, you may have to change things here, here, here, or if you're using Slackware, you might need to find Slack build scripts or other things. That way you can focus on one distro, get the information out there, and then also touch on if you're using another distro, here are some things you might want to take a note of before you go down the road. And Fate, you wanted to also comment about distros?

Yeah, I was actually going to suggest the same thing. If you focus on one particular distro from start to finish and exclude acknowledging other distros, then you're targeting a subset of a subset, and I don't think that would be as beneficial to people as trying to be as all-inclusive as possible. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Hmm. as all-inclusive as possible. So I kind of, you know, I love the idea of maybe like a sort of like a middle ground where it's you split it up, but it's two releases in one week.

The problem with that is right now resources. That might be something we'd do, you know, maybe a couple of months down the road. I don't know, because that would require probably that we have our editor in place. On Popey's point point instead of 10 minute segments uh when you're structuring the show and you're writing the notes uh you could um write them as different segments like you currently segment last right now right and then choose you know depending on uh how many segments are available for that particular show how you're going to do the release structure i mean it's it's one of those things that maybe the show,

and this is, right now it's all very fluid, but maybe the show needs to be a full-length show, not small. I think that's a problem. It is a problem. But I guess it all comes down to the topic at hand, right? Yeah, I was just thinking, even the segment idea is kind of hard because sometimes that part takes five minutes and sometimes that part will take a half hour.

Right. Yeah. So that's challenging. Right. I mean, I think obviously at the beginning of the show, I say episodes one through five, I doubt that we're going to get into anything that requires multiple parts. Because remember, this is a how-to Linux show. We're taking baby steps here. We're taking baby steps with me.

remember, this is a how-to Linux show. We're taking baby steps here. We're taking baby steps with me. And I don't see us getting into something that's going to require a baby step approach, at least in the beginning. Because, you know, remember, we're trying to appeal to a general audience, not just the advanced audiences,

but also the people who are wanting to learn more about Linux. And if you're going to give somebody a five-step process for something to learn more about Linux, you might lose them going to give somebody a five-step process for something to learn more about Linux, you might lose them already because they'll be like, wow, really? I need to go through a five-step course to learn about this particular thing that I want to do?

I don't know. I think that's looking at it from the wrong angle. I think it's more going back to what Iq was saying of the on-demand nature of it, where a lot of people look at it and say, well, I don't need to know how to install a package. I know how to install a package. What I need to know is how to set up this part of it where a lot of people look at it and say, well, I don't need to know how to install a package. I know how to install a package. What I need to know is how to set up this part of it. And I think that's the advantage of having it broken up a little bit is people can pick and choose the components that meet their skill set.

Yeah, that's true. Well, like when I'm looking up something for Kdenlive, for example, that's actually something I've run into. I can use video editors in Linux six ways from Sunday, but there's always like that. It's always forget like the process of compositing. I always forget that. So I have to like look for that piece of it to remember how to do it. And I don't want to watch an entire show on it. So I think having the segment definitely helps.

Okay, I kind of want to bring up this concern is, okay, playlists are very YouTube friendly, but what are we going to do when we put it on, let's say, the Jupiter Broadcasting website? Right, that's the, yeah, I think basing around playlists only gets you so far. I think that is a problem. SMA, SSA, what did you want to say?

SMASA. SMASA. Yeah, SMASA. I just wanted to say that you want this to be an archive of how to do different things in Linux, so I don't think you should really be that strict about how long each individual show is. You should try to do whatever it is as fast as possible, but still be effective and leave that up to the topic. Yeah.

Yeah. I think that's going to have to happen either way. I mean, I don't think like we could just cut it off if something was going wrong because the content will always sort of drive that. And that's it, you guys. That's all we have time. That's all we have time. Sorry.

We really want to show you how to get that started, but we're going to have to run. But we ran out of film, you know, and the camera and the batteries. Yeah. Yeah. So, boy, I don't want to show you how to get that started, but we're going to have to run. But we ran out of film, you know, and the camera and the batteries. Yeah. Yeah, so, boy, I don't know. So it sounds like this is still something I want to kind of try to refine because I think this is a key part to how to deliver this show. And I think part of it is, like, there's two audiences we're trying to serve. One is the weekly people that will want to tune in and see what we're working on,

and the other was going to be the people who will be coming across the archive in a year from now when they're trying to implement that project that they want to get done. It's too bad you can't do chapter breaks like on a DVD. Right? We'll release each one as a DVD.

You could release a playlist file on the website included with a zip or a tar jizz or something. Although, I mean, is this even a podcast format? You had to say it like that, didn't you? Yes, tar, gz, jizz, whatever. Okay. Okay, all right.

I somehow knew I'd get that response. It was not intentional. Well, why not having it so you have one episode, say, the lamp stack. You have one episode about the introduction, and that gets people to say, this episode is about this. And then on the show notes, there are multiple parts. They can jump to different posts. So everything is still self-contained in the one episode, but it's split up so people can see what they can get to the sections that they want to. And in this way, you could you could benefit having it archived on the website and archiving it on YouTube and doing playlists and having it all organized however you want to in different mediums.

That makes sense. It kind of sounds to me like you want to fulfill two requirements. One, which is have the people who are going to download a chunky video and will be happy to sit there and go through it and pause it and, you know, continue and jump ahead or whatever. Yeah. Whereas you also want the short attention span YouTube audience who will watch a 10 minute video and then, you know, disappear and then maybe come back for the next 10 minute video in, in the, uh, in the series. That's three 10 minute videos in a playlist or one, uh, 60 minute video. So it's basically a 60 minute video. You chop into three, put it on a playlist. You're done. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I like what Popey was saying. Um, like for your actual website, you put the one final episode and then you put the split parts on YouTube. I don't even, I don don't even i don't really i don't really like designing any aspect of this show for youtube i don't even like thinking about

youtube makes me so frustrated riley's been trying to get a point in about production go ahead really yeah so that's what i was going going back to say about youtube too is like you have to make sure the production is good on it and you do keep people entertained because a lot of the shows like it's the people who are doing it often like kind of weird sometimes yeah my my observation uh you know from some that i've checked out is they're too slow um uh and they're they're spending way too much time sort of with the introduction and and the and the talking about themselves and all this kind of stuff instead of just hitting the ground running. And I really look at it from that mindset of somebody who wants to come in and

solve a problem. And I really think that's the person that, you know, in terms of who we can help and who we can provide, you know, more resources for people looking to switch to Linux, I feel like that's the person to serve. But I still want to make it palatable to everyone else too in some way. So I think, yeah, go ahead. I was saying, you know, this really isn't necessarily a podcast. We don't really need a format in a method that would go out to a podcast catcher or anything. We do.

I don't know. I think maybe that's where I was thinking, maybe still having a final version that is sort of a longer show type format. Well, and I think from a podcast version, one of the advantages is that it allows you to build up your own personal library of stuff we know and stuff we're sharing. So you may not even really need to watch that video right away. But then later on, think, oh, crap, what was that one thing? And then you have it stored locally. Some people do want that local media. They don't necessarily

want to watch it online. Hmm. All right. Well, it sounds like we'll do some more discussions, but thanks for giving us a lot to think about, you guys. That's good input to take there and kick around. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. All right. Well, we got an email from Todd. He wrote and says, hey guys, I've been going through this long

experiment to get rid of Google in my life and trying to find Linux devices for mobile use is hurting me right now. I've settled on CyanogenMod He wrote and says, or the Yolo phone or something like that, then you could share their feedback on the show and put it in the show notes. I really want to buy an open Pandora 1 gigahertz model, but that's a lot of money to spend on something that might or might not work out. If a listener was able to give some feedback on its use for messaging, SIP, and Linux apps in general, that'd make it a lot easier for me.

He's also going to post in the Jupyter Colony and on the G Plus Jupyter Colony. Well, I live in kansas so i'm trying to get more google in my life the fiber kind yeah all right so john wrote in i call it the possible downsides of acceptance he said so i definitely agree that getting more people to use linux is great for the desktop and linux as a whole but what if say for example canonical dominate the linux space and slowly inched towards a closed-source system like Windows or Mac OS?

Do you think that this is a potential issue? If something like that happened, then real Linux would be stuck where it currently stands, in which a big-shot OS that dominates the market would then enslave all of their users and all of the new stuff that Linux people are left out in the cold. What are your thoughts on this matter, John? So I don't think this is really quite the same.

I think I hear this comparison a lot, and I don't think this is really quite the same, and it really kind of comes down to license, I think. I mean, I think you look at companies like, or distros like Mint and other things, it kind of proves that in a sense. So where Mac or Windows could come in and sort of brace and extend and then dry out all the competition, that's not really an option for things that are based on the GPL as much. It's a possibility, I suppose.

But then that would be the market deciding, right? I think they're confusing the word, the joke about Mark being a dictator with an actual dictator. Yes. Welcome to Putin OS. Yeah, okay. All right. But, John, so I wouldn't worry about it. dictator where the actual dictator yes welcome to putin os yeah okay all right uh but john so i wouldn't worry about it i think the license has shown that that that if anything things rise and fall and and then at the end of the day it's all gpl code and that's kind of what matters in the

end well lots to think about and we'd love to hear your thoughts on the how-to show as well and probably the best way to send us your ideas, because the Linux Action Show inbox is ridiculous right now. I bet it is. Yeah, we got so many emails. But if you want to shoot your ideas to at HowToLinux on the Twitter, twitter.com slash HowToLinux, we'll be monitoring that for ideas and suggestions. And we'll also be eventually posting notifications when the show gets closer to launch. And when we're doing stuff stuff we'll be posting it there. Not a lot happening at the moment because the show

is still obviously in the early stages but that'd be a good spot to follow so that way you can get updates but you can also send us ideas, topic ideas, format ideas and all that kind of stuff at HowToLinux on Zitwitter. Alright, well thank you very much MumbleRoom for joining us.

You guys were great as always and gave us a lot to think about. And thanks to Brendan for writing in or for calling in and talking to me about the Clementine OS project. And Chase, thanks to you for joining us. Hey, you know, it's always fun being here. You know, it feels very comfortable for me to be here with you guys. So thank you so much for having me here. Well, you keep that seat warm because you'll be sitting right there again tomorrow for Unfiltered. Yeah, why don't you put that other chair together so I have a much more comfortable seat. Why don't you put that chair together? Come on, man. I'm in a folding chair here.

You're sitting in like my naked. I know. Well, this chair is no good either. This chair is no good. Yeah, fair enough. Well, Matt, if all goes as planned, on Sunday we'll be chatting with one of the new folks at the KDE Design Group who are working on the next version of the Plasma desktop to make it look even better.

So that'll be a good chat. And did you see, by the way, the Numix folks made the official announcement about their new desktop they're going to be working on? That's so awesome. You can find that on their G Plus feed and go check that out. Also, don't forget you can join us live on a Tuesday at 2 p.m. over at jblive.tv. Go to jupiterbroadcasting.com slash calendar

to get that converted to your own local time zone. We also have our Mumble room. You join the chat room, do Bang Mumble, and you'll get the Mumble server address, and you can hang out in our virtual log and chat with us in real time and we have that open to everybody if you're working on a project and you want to spread the word just let us know and uh we'll have uh we have a lot of good stuff coming up we got a lot of good stuff in the way in the works great pretty excited in the way and don't forget to go to

teespring.com slash last 300 get yourself a shirt and a challenge coin all right everyone well thanks so much for tuning this week's episode's episode of Linux Unplugged. If we don't see you on Sunday, we'll see you right back here next Tuesday. Bye!