LINUX Unplugged - Episode 42: Fine Wine or Sour Ports | LUP 42

Episode Date: May 28, 2014

Liam from Gaming on Linux joins us to discuss the Witcher 2 port fiasco, and why Linux’s reputation as a gaming platform could be on the line.Plus a heated Manjaro discussion, your feedback, and a BIG announcement!

This is Linux Unplugged, Episode weekly Linux talk show that's still celebrating Towel Day. My name is Chris. And my name is Matt. Hey Matt, you know it is episode 42, so it felt only appropriate to give a shout-out. And guess what? What's that? Big show today. Big show.

Big show today. So, Liam from GamingOnLinux.com and also a writer for Linux Voice joins us to discuss the Witcher 2 controversy. He took to the web, he wrote on GamingOnLinux that we need to stand back and push against these kind of ports because these could harm the long-term viability

and perception of Linux as a gaming platform. So he's going to come on and Liam will talk to us about his opinion on why maybe The Witcher 2 is a bigger problem than perhaps we were

originally suspecting. And then if we get through all of that after our email and feedback as well and the follow-up on the poll from last week, I have a really big announcement to make. Huge announcement. Big. Big announcement. Biggest announcement ever.

Wow. I don't know. That might be overselling it. But it's probably in the top three. Forever as of yet or whatever. Yeah. Well, I'd say it's in the top three. Cool.

Yeah, we'll see. We'll see if we get to it. I don't know. I don't know. We got a lot to cover this week, Matt. We just might not'll see. We'll see if we get to it. I don't know. I don't know. We got a lot to cover this week, man. So, you know, we just might not have time. We'll see. Alright. Well, I wanted to start

with our feedback this week, and we got a whole, whole, whole bunch of emails, and some people have been complaining that the feedback segment's a little long. So I've trimmed it up a little bit. So I just wanted to start with a couple of follow-up items, just real quick. The first one is, we had Jonathan Thomas from the OpenShot project on Linux Action Show on Sunday. And he mentioned in our interview with him that he would be doing an update on the development status of OpenShot 2.

Well, he has posted that update, and you can find it over at openshotvideo.com. We've got it linked in the show notes. He also gave us a shout-out for his interview on Episode 314. He loved our shirts. That was pretty cool. That's awesome. We all had matching shirts. So he also gives us a video preview of OpenShot 2.0.

I'll play a little bit of it. It's got quite a soundtrack to it. Yeah. Yeah. It's looking good. So he's got about almost a two-minute clip here of the new editor in action, working, moving clips around. The timeline looks like it moves real slick.

And then later on in the video, he'll show how the UI is fully customizable. You can dock all the windows around and stuff like that. So kind of exciting. You can watch the full video over at openshotvideo.com and get a little preview taste of how it's coming. He says there's been 56 commits in the past 30 days. He says the OpenShot development is the most active it's been yet. Things are moving forward at a very fast pace.

And he included some recently completed tasks. So if you've been following this closely, you can go check it out. And one of the things that he mentioned is he was having some Windows build issues. Those look like they have been mostly nailed out. And we got a comment on our YouTube page. Somebody said, yeah, the reason why I use OpenShot is because I've been planning on that cross-platform compatibility. That's going to make it work for me.

There you go. Alright. I'm going to move into our mumble room here, our virtual lug. Hey guys. So guys, we're going to read an email here from Tennessee Frank, who kind of writes in a little bit in the defense of Manjaro. I think we had like an after show discussion. We're like, oh, Manjaro.

And so I think we kind of spurred some people to write in. And Tennessee Frank says, hey, Chris and Matt, love the show and try to watch live when I can. But he can't always watch live, of course. We understand. He says he wants to. Right now. Yeah. Oh, well, hello, Tennessee Frank.

He says, I wanted to stand up for Manjaro. He says, I know a lot of Arch users don't really like, they kind of hate on it. They say it's not Arch. And granted, they do have their own repos now. And they aren't quite as cutting edge as a pure Arch install would be. But for those of us who don't have a PhD in Arch, it gives us a way to access all the Arch goodness and the AUR without all the issues associated with doing a proper Arch install. I've tried just about every Arch-based KDE distro out there, including Antergos,

and thus far, Manjaro is the only one that worked well for me and gives me Bluetooth support and Wi-Fi right out of the box. I think that's a big one. I really think that those who use pure Arch really need to get over it and accept those of us who use Manjaro and the other offshoots as fellow Arch users, even if we didn't build our own system from scratch.

We're using Pac-Man, same as Arch users, and we do appreciate the power of Pac-Man, and hopefully with the help of distros like Manjaro, we'll learn enough to move to pure Arch installs sooner or later. Until then, let's try to play nice with each other and stop all the hate. Besides, there are plenty of Windows users for us to hate on. LOL, catch you on the show. Keep up the great work. Tennessee Frank.

So there was one defensive Manjaro, users for us to hate on lol catch it on the show keep up the great work tennessee frank so there was one defensive manjaro and then we had a second emailer just kind of in the same vein right in to say uh this is carrie and carrie said about arch manjaro and wi-fi hi chris and matt love the show i just have a small rebuttal about the comment that why would people use manjaro instead of pure arch i wish i was on the mumbled channel that last tuesday because i could have said this. But a good reason why, and I think many other people use Manjaro instead of PureArch, is because of the Wi-Fi drivers.

Trying to figure out how to install Wi-Fi drivers is difficult enough, but I don't have easy access to an Ethernet dongle. In the new age of extremely thin laptops, I'm guessing... He says this is in the age of new extremely thin laptops where you almost always need an Ethernet dongle now. I'm guessing that Debian, Arch, and many other Ethernet by default distros will start running into this issue more and more as these laptops become more popular. Although, maybe this is an issue of non-free software. So that's an interesting angle, too, of the hardware support. Don't you think, Matt?

Well, you know, I mean, so I've actually had one instance was not with Wi-Fi. It was actually with an Ethernet situation to where Integros was not seeing it, which is essentially pure Arch for all intents and purposes. Manjaro did. Normally this wouldn't be a big deal except for the one little bit that if you want to install the operating system, you kind of have to have Internet. So that was kind of a deal breaker for me. So, of course, on that machine, I went with Manjaro. On most other machines, though, whether it be Integros or Manjaro, I've never really had a problem with wireless stuff.

Just personally, my own experience. At the end of the day, as far as people that don't like Manjaro or do like Manjaro, honestly, if you're a Manjaro fan, hey, that's awesome. Don't worry about what other people think about it. If it's working for you, stick with it. Don't sweat it. And to that, Matt. Rod Corpse, go ahead. You wanted to make a point. Yeah, but it was mainly

to talk about the elitism of Arch people. And it's not that Arch users say you're not using real Arch. It's that Arch users say, specifically the people who are in the community helping people, is if you're not using Arch, you shouldn't be coming to Arch people for help. So people who are Manjaro have a completely different kernel. They've modified their kernel and put extra pieces into it.

That means that there's many aspects where it's just going to create breakage when you have Arch packages in a different distro and then claim that they're compatible when they're actually not. And then you go to the Arch packagers and maintainers and ask them what's the problem. And you're like, they're saying the same thing that the Ubuntu people would say to Mint users. You're using a different distro.

Stop expecting us to help you with a different distro. Go ahead, Popey. I think you're about to say exactly what I was just thinking. Yeah, I think Ron hit the nail on the head. We get exactly the same thing with Ubuntu in our IRC channels. We get Mint people coming in or Mint users coming in and saying, my system's not working and I'm using Ubuntu when in fact they're using an Ubuntu derivative Mint.

And it's not just Mint, it could be any derivative. And I think this is one of those growing pains of any derivative of another distro where they don't have a wide variety of support. They often direct people to the upstream support channels or people inadvertently go to the upstream support channels and they find that upstream tend to get lost because it's not actually upstream that they're running. Riley, I wanted you to get your repo point in about Manjaro. Go ahead. Yeah, the main thing that really bugs me about Manjaro is how they manage the repos and how they test the packages. Because I know there's no way on earth with a small team that they have that they can test all those packages, hold them back for two weeks and call it stable.

There's no way. I'm sure they test some of them, but to hold a package back just two weeks and call it stable and call it in a day, this doesn't make sense to me at all. They'd have to have tested on a pretty large scale. Nine people with about 10,000 packages. Yes, exactly. There's no way they can do that. Wimpy, go ahead and give me the dev perspective on this.

Well, Rotten sort of hit it on the head there. There has been some aggravation with the Arch developers and the Manjaro developers where we change things because we're rolling release and then we

get accused of deliberately uh breaking manjaro when when packages roll into manjaro at offset intervals because the the way that things trickle from arch into arch is controlled and i don't know that's matched with manjaro but um also what um was it riley was was saying is also true. I got a lot of flack from some Manjaro users when I released Marte 1.8. And they were all stating that, you know, in two weeks when it all trickled into Manjaro, it would be stable. And I was making the point, well, I wasn't going to do anything in two weeks. So what was going to make these packages more stable in two weeks time other than the passage

of time right and exactly then you just have to wait two weeks in order to get that next patch this is the key question about manjaro for me um uh this if i have yet to have heard a great answer to it because to me it seems like one of the few distributions that could pull off a successful testing branch like this would be distributions with the size install base of Debian or Ubuntu. Because such a niche of your base is going to be running on test and then a niche of that niche will have all the packages installed. So even with 10,000 users running on a test version of a distribution, a small subset of them are going to have the package installed that you have installed. So even with 10,000 users running on a test version of a distribution, a small subset of them are going to have the package installed that you have installed. So it could literally come down to maybe 100 people use that same package. Maybe those people issued the update in that two weeks time period and tested it. And if maybe they ran into a bug, maybe they reported

it. So now maybe you're down to a dozen possible people that would actually do that. So to me, the only way to prove a system like that is with massive scale and demonstrated ability to catch bugs before they ship. And I don't know if we've seen either one of those in Mangiero's case yet. I think that they just wait for packages to be in-house for two weeks. So they see there are are enough stable that nobody says there's something wrong with this. I think that the two weeks help because Arch users, there's a higher chance of Arch users to report a problem. Wimpy, could you touch on the testing process for Arch there? Yeah, so this doesn't apply necessarily to the

community repositories, but the to the community repositories, but the core and extra repositories, there's a testing. So everything that goes into core and extra has to go into testing first. And it requires a number of developers to then sign off on those packages, meaning that you've actually used those packages out of the testing repositories and agree that they work and they don't break things. So that's the testing that happens within Arch. So when things land in Arch, they have already gone through a testing process.

So further delaying the packages with a derivative distribution doesn't actually add anything to the testing. The real benefit would be to have a distribution that got maybe more people testing. Well, quite. And what I do is I'm putting most of my packages into community and there's no official testing sign-off there unless there's a rebuild

because of an underlying library change. But what I do is I host some development repositories and the users that I'm in contact with through google plus and other you know online forums they actually run these things for for weeks or months in some cases before they actually make it into um you know production releases so it's well tested yeah but the other thing i wanted to touch on is that there has been occasion where there's been security

updates that we've applied in our that haven't trickled through immediately into Manjaro. So you've got a bigger attack window. Right. But still, though, in relative to some other distributions, turnaround times, a pretty tight window. Yeah, I mean, there's an ad hoc ARK security team.

Oh, yeah, that's a good point. As Matt points out, Manjaro is a desktop. I always found that to be such a crap answer. I just, I can't. Yeah. I mean, I'll give you the other stuff, but that a good point, as Matt points out. Manjaro is a desktop. I always found that to be such a crap answer. I just, I can't, yeah. I mean, I'll give you the other stuff, but that was, come on, you know. Yeah. Well, there's other flaws with Manjaro, too. We can go through if you want.

Well, I didn't want this to be a Manjaro, I mean, because these guys are writing it in defense. And I guess I wanted to say this is a, I mean, I think there's a place for hardware support, like Matt says, for offline install. That's obviously, there's a need for that when it comes to installing Arch. I mean, out of all of them, you're not going to run Manjaro. Most of my PCs are Arch, but there's one specifically that I don't want to screw with. I leave it alone. I run Manjaro on that for a reason because I'm not updating every bloody day. Because quite frankly, you really, to be proactive, you need to actually be in front of that and paying attention.

Yeah, there is almost an inherent benefit in having slowed down updates just for that purpose. Yeah. So for myself, it's a distro that serves a purpose in that regard. Do I want it on all my machines?

Not necessarily. I like different flavors of things for different tasks. I guess the reason why, because I don't want to hate on Manjaro too much, and I was thinking maybe we should dedicate an episode where we kind of really get into this and maybe there are some

things that does better than other distributions and i i you know i mean it sounds like there's some legitimate concerns about the way they do testing and and and yeah so it sounds like we could have a pretty good robust we might be able to dedicate a whole episode to i don't know what do you guys think should we do an episode on this maybe i think that's a good arch an arch based just uh you know conversation with entire ghosts and chakra and stuff like that. Yeah, maybe we'll let this topic air for a few weeks so we think about it because we've got some stuff planned for the next few weeks. And then we'll come back to this and we'll dedicate a whole show to it because I think that could be – because like the chat was pointing out, Shaka Raka Raka Bing, you know, they do something interesting where they just support a subset of Arch packages. And so they have their own approach, right?

And then, of course, you've got Antegros, and then you've got straight up Arch. Chris, actually, Shakaradez, Majaro Dez are actually former Shakaradez. I think there was like some kind of in-house fighting that happened or something, and they split off and just did their own thing. Yeah, so maybe, all right. They're not on ArchDerivative anymore. As they say, let's put a pin in it, and we'll come back to this in a couple weeks, because we do have Liam here, and I want to get to Liam to talk about With a Witcher 2. And also, we got an email in.

Okay, this is a little weird. I'm not upset. It's just a little weird. We got an email in and this is the first time this has ever happened. It's not addressed to me. It's not addressed to Matt. It's addressed to the mumble room. So mumble room got an email this week. So we're going to read that here in a minute. I was like, Oh, they're not even, not even writing to talk to Matt. No, that's cool. But, uh, before we get to that, I want to thank our first sponsor this weekend. That is the great folks over at DigitalOcean. And the month of May is almost wrapping up. So if you want to go out there and use UnpluggedMay to give us a little boost for the

month of May, I would love it. And why would you do that? Because you're going to get a $10 credit over at DigitalOcean when you use UnpluggedMay. So what is DigitalOcean and why would you want a $10 credit? Man, I am so glad you asked me that question. It's like you knew exactly what to ask, dear audience. Well, let me tell you, DigitalOcean is a simple cloud hosting provider dedicated to offering the most intuitive and easy way to spin up a cloud server. Now, our audience is fast, but on average, users can create a cloud server in about 55 seconds, and pricing plans start at only $5 per month for 512 megabytes of RAM,

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I could very easily see DigitalOcean as sort of our remote data center for maybe an off-site Bacula machine or an off-site own cloud box or an XMPP server or whatever we would need where it would be really easy for everybody to connect to. I could easily see using DigitalOcean for that. And I love the fact that I could write a series of scripts and even integrate it with my Puppet setup to manage my DigitalOcean droplets. And because they have Docker so tightly integrated, you can actually use Dooku to publish applications

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and really use. And the benefit of these SSD drives up on a Digital Ocean Droplet is you can get such good performance and IO contention is a total non-issue. And what I mean by that is back in the day, to get the kind of performance I get from my DigitalOcean droplet now, I would have to have a RAID array of at least three or more disks to get the kind of performance I can get now off of one single SSD drive. And DigitalOcean's pricing structure is so straightforward that if I need to expand that SSD size, it's clear to me exactly what I'm going to be spending, and the value is absolutely reasonable. So go over to DigitalOcean.com. Use the promo code UNPLUGGEDME when you check out.

See what we've been talking about. Go check out what an awesome product can be built using Linux technologies like KVM, of course, the Linux kernel, all riding on top of amazing hardware. DigitalOcean.com, and a really big thank you to digital ocean for sponsoring. Okay. So we got this question for the mumble room. Not for us. Comes in from James and James says, I have multiple machines,

both for work and personal. All right. So get that mumble room in your head. And I use them on a daily basis. My question is how do you, the virtual lug handle multiple systems with documents, config files, projects, installed packages, et cetera? I find myself sometimes freaking out that my laptop is not exactly configured like my workstation

and that sometimes I want to work on something from home. So you, virtual lug, how do you stay organized between multiple machines? Anybody want to take this first? BitTorrent Sync. Ick? BitTorrent Sync. Ick? BitTorrent Sync. That's how I do it. Yeah.

That's a good tool. I've been using a lot of BitTorrent Sync myself. Anybody else? And, you know, you just got to make sure that you're using the same thing on both machines, you know, as far as secretizing, like,

Google bookmarks or Firefox bookmarks or what have you. And then, of course, password manager. So, Wimpy, are you syncing like your.config files with BitTorrent Sync? All sorts of stuff, but yes. So if you search on GitHub, there's a tool called Macup, M-A-C-K-U-P, which is a Python script, and it was originally designed to sync dot files and dot folders to dropbox but recently they've changed the way it works so that you can actually back

it up to other cloud backends and also just to a random target directory so i have a bitsync folder called profiles and all of my dot files get backed up in there using Mac up and Mac up has a backup and restore facility. So I have my main workstation. I back up all my stuff and it auto creates the symlinks to all the necessary places. And then when I go to a new machine, I just sync down the profile and then run Mac up restore. And it sprays all of the symlinks back in the right places and all of my stuff is configured and ready to go. Very nice.

So I use that for the.files. Do you have any problems with mismatched versions of software and reading a config that is meant for a different version of the package or something like that? No. I mean, I run Arch on all my machines and they're all, you you know if not at the same version very close to the same version so i've never encountered a problem with it no

that's pretty interesting you kind of have my uh my interest peak so that's uh and that's uh rika's got that linked in the chat room it looks like right now so i'll go grab a link to that and throw it in the show notes all right so anybody? I saw Dropbox mentioned a couple of times. Poby, you've been trying SyncThing? Yeah, I... Without wishing to get too aggressive, I find it incredulous that Linux

and open source people will accept BitTorrent Sync into their life. It's a proprietary closed platform. And you have no idea what's going over the wire so so i use sync thing and uh it's fully open source free software it's written in go it's on github and the developer is super active and very responsive to issues and uh bug reports um it's it does pretty much the same kind of thing as BitTorrent Sync

in that you can sync a folder between multiple machines. They could all be behind a firewall. They could be opened up to other people. But the key point is there's no third party that could control it or shut it down or monitor what's going on. Now, Wimpy, you kind of had a response to SyncThing versus BitTorrent Sync, right? Well, only in as much that because Popey was banging on

about SyncThing a few weeks ago, I actually created the SyncThing packages for Arch Linux in the AUR. Oh, well, thank you. I'm using your package then. Yeah, and I am actually using SyncThing, but at the moment it doesn't quite do everything i need right for me to move over to it but i think in due course i will migrate to it but bit torrent zinc is the thing that got me away from dropbox so that's an improvement yeah yeah yeah uh all

right well we're gonna get to liam here in just a second i know he's been he's been patiently waiting while he eats a box of cookies because it's uh getting late where he's at really quick though and you still have time to vote i'm just curious. This hit the last subreddit this week. I just wanted to just really just that maybe you guys would like to see the results so far of the desktop environment straw poll that we launched last week. Gnome, when we recorded the episode, was ahead. It has now fallen to the second position with 20% of the votes. KDE now dominates the poll with a solid lead at 23%, so 3% over GNOME. And we've gotten a total of, wow, 1,469 votes so far. And I'd say, so here's your top five, ladies and gentlemen. Number one, actually, I'll start at the bottom. Number five, Cinnamon.

Number four, XFCE. Number three, Unity, number two, Gnome Shell, and number one, KDE. Not too surprised by this. A little surprised by KDE. There's only 8% between Unity and KDE, between the third and the first one. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Now, I don't want this to come across as offensive, because I actually infrequently switch over to KDE and enjoy it quite a bit.

So I think KDE is a fantastic desktop. I think it's cool. You can customize it. I think Qt's great. However, that said, I kind of wonder if maybe the popularity of KDE is because KDE has been so damn solid since the 4.1 days that people have just kind of put their arms up and been like, ah, I'm sick of everybody screwing around with me and changing everything on me.

I'm just going to get KDE figured out and I'm just going to make it work. Now, I'm not trying to say people are settling, but I am kind of saying maybe people are settling. I don't know. I don't, because I actually think Katie's great. So maybe not, maybe people see what I see in it and they just love it. But anyways, uh, why don't, uh, I'm going to grab by Liam here. Who's been, uh, waiting, uh, very politely and I'll pull him down to our,

uh, our little restricted, uh, casting room where we can hang out. It's kind of like a, a green room. Imagine velvet padded walls, Liam. So Liam, thank you for coming on Linux Unplugged at last minute notice. I literally pinged you two hours ago on Twitter. So you're a good sport. I really appreciate it. Hey, no problem. So, GamingOnLinux.com. I love it. I read it at least

every Saturday. You recently had a post like all the great games that came out that week in Linux. I think you had that two weeks ago. It was a great read. I enjoyed that quite a bit. And on – let me pull this up.

You recently wrote a piece kind of covering this whole Witcher 2 fiasco. Would you be a sport and kind of update our audience in your own words on what is the big upset around witcher 2 and um what kind of started off this whole controversy yeah sure okay um well it's a bit of a bit of a harsh stance to take really but i think it is an important one the the port basically it was a lazy port there's no way to get around that The Witcher 2 is not an old game it's not like it's using old tech that the developers aren't familiar with

it originally shipped for Windows in 2011 is that right? yeah, you're talking a couple years nothing and we had another game System Shock 2 now that was ported using Wine. That's like 15 years old.

That is completely different. Now, Linux users are obviously very technically minded. We know all the ins and outs of everything, basically. We're going to find out if something like this happens quite easily, as we did. So what happened, right, if I have this correct, is it gets announced on Steam, people start downloading, they start noticing really odd performance issues, especially if they're on ATI and Intel. They basically can't play the game, right?

Yeah, I mean, that's it. When it first came out, it only worked, well, they said it only worked on NVIDIA hardware. Right. That was the first iffy thing, really. Yes. Yeah, that seemed a little strange. And then people started investigating why the performance was so bad. In fact, some of you even claimed it ran better under Wine.

So people started doing a little digging, and then they discovered, wait a minute, there's an actual Windows EXE in here. little digging and then they discovered, wait a minute, there's an actual Windows EXE in here. And when you launch the game, this Eon wrapper is essentially performing the function that Wine would perform and running a Windows executable in sort of a little cocoon environment, correct? Yeah, it's pretty much that. I mean, the virtual programming, the guys that did the port, they claim they do make code changes and they specifically tune their software for every port. But when something works vastly better in Wine than the port itself, something's not right. Now, I got to be honest with you. On my system, I don't know if I would have known it wasn't a native port. So I think if you have the right setup, if you have basically an NVIDIA card with a proprietary NVIDIA driver,

I mean, I probably played it for two, two and a half hours without issue. I haven't played it beyond that, so I don't know if it becomes unstable later on. So for me, I was kind of like, oh, cool, a game I didn't have before is now available on Linux, and I kind of just stopped the thought process there. But the point that you brought up in your article is this could set a bad perception about Linux as a gaming platform, right? You're worried that maybe Windows PC switchers will look at it and go, oh, Linux? You mean that platform that has all the emulated ports that don't run as good as the native games if I ran Windows on the same box?

You're worried about that kind of perception, right? Well, yeah. For Linux to grow, for Linux gaming to grow, we have to have games. And if developers keep coming along, pushing games out like this, then people that switch from Windows or Mac to Linux are going to notice the difference. They're going to start talking about it. Well, isn't this already happening on the Mac?

Because when I think of a lot of Mac games, I think of crappy Windows ports. To be honest with you, this seems to be an already problem that plagues the Mac platform, and they're selling them through the Mac App Store. Yeah, it's a funny thing. The guys who ported the Witcher actually do a fair few of the Mac

ports, and they're also not very good. So let me ask you this. Are you opposed to the idea if let's just say we live in some sort of magical pony land where happiness is abound and they can just out of nowhere develop a really solid wrapper where, I mean, really it's actually a pretty good performing game and they've really done some magic there. Are you okay with that kind of port or is it a principle thing where it needs to be native code? Because I've been sensing it's a bit about the technology too. It's not just about the functionality of the game. Is that right? Originally, yeah. My

complaint originally was that they didn't port it natively at all. It was using a wrapper, but then so many people made comments about the performance and that it doesn't matter as long as it works. And that's true. If it works, that's great. That's what we need. But the point about this is it doesn't work for a lot of people and the wrapper is the source of those problems.

Right. Yeah, and I could see that reputation thing becoming a big problem. But don't you think in a way the overly verbose reaction from the Linux community will sort of promote that image because we're drawing so much attention to it? Oh, yeah, definitely. I mean, some people have just gone way too overboard. I mean, one of the developers came on and sort of tried to speak to people on the Steam forum, and he got destroyed by people.

It was horrible. Yeah, I saw that. One of the Eon guys came on, and he said, you know, we consider it to be a good middle ground because these shops simply just don't have the budget to do a full native port. And so this developer says, look, it was either this wrapper or no game at all.

What would you prefer? What would, Liam, writer for gaming on Linux.com, what would you prefer, no game at all or a port like this? Personally, for me, I mean, this is just speaking for myself, I would have personally preferred no port to what I've got. It's about the reputation for you. Well, it's not just that. I mean, I went out and actually bought it myself as a gamer to write

about it to video it i can't even run it wow yeah that would be very easy yes i got lucky right i bought it on sale at 80 off and i had an nvidia machine to try it on i didn't even try it on an intel rig here at the studio uh i i actually have an nvidiaIA machine. I mean, I'm using the proprietary drivers. I get about 9 to 10 frames per second on the lowest settings. You know, honestly, I would rather the developers just work with, like, wine. And just like, here, if Linux users want to play our game, use wine. I don't know. Well, that was the stance of the guy behind ID Software. That was what he said originally.

He said that for Linux gaming to succeed, something along these lines, that people need to push wine, basically. Yeah, I mean, no, I just mean in some circumstances. I don't want to have a whole bunch of emulators, or whatever, not emulators, but you know what I mean. I guess I kind of wanted to wrap on this question and ask you ask you if uh if you think this has set perhaps a bad taste in developers mouths now uh probably has a bit yeah the the backlash of it has probably not made them very happy i imagine yeah yeah all right well uh i'm going to drag you up to the lion's den uh and we'll let the virtual lug uh toss some questions at you and see if they have anything they want to ask you. So virtual lug, Popey, why don't we start with you?

Is there any questions you wanted to ask before we jump to the next segment? Yeah, I'm not so fussed about having a wine port. I mean, as in I don't mind. I like limbo. I don't mind. I like Limbo. I don't really care that it runs under Wine or Eon or whatever any of these enabling technologies are in the same way that I don't care that Minecraft runs under Java. I don't care what technology enables it so long as it works. And it depresses me that the Linux community would be happy to file a bug about their keyboard not working or their mouse not working to their distro. But when a developer of a game comes along and uses a third-party enabler to make their game work on Linux,

rather than file a bug and say, hey, you're in a friendly and respectful way, rather than saying your game doesn't work very well on my platform, they go full bore hassling the person on SIEM. And I think that's just the wrong way to approach it. Yeah, that was the wrong way. I agree there. I do see that.

That was the part that kind of went dirty that leaves the bad taste. Daredevil, I wanted to get a chance because you say maybe we're looking at this the wrong way. Yeah, I agree totally with Popey. And also, it's like this is not a matter of Linux. We're talking about if the problem was that developers didn't acknowledge the platform. They're starting to acknowledge. When they started to develop for Windows, they also had quirks, and they had to deal with it. Same way when they go to consoles.

That's true. If you look at it like old DOS games coming to Windows, man, what a wreck that was for a while. Yeah, it takes a while. And it's just a matter of going and reporting bugs and saying, like, look, this doesn't work. Maybe even if you buy the game and the game doesn't work, pay attention to the license that you accepted. Maybe the license is like Windows license,

that if it doesn't work for you, you can actually get a refund. Yeah, if you're going to use a wrapper, I think that should be SOP. Now, Rotten, I think I like where you're going. You're saying maybe developers could take advantage of that open source ecosystem. Yeah, I was just saying, like, if you had, if the game developers decided to use Wine as the platform instead of using something that's, you know, the Eon thing or making their own, if they used Wine, they could actually be helping Wine in general.

So even other apps that are not gaming apps could be benefiting from the completion stuff that they're fixing for their stuff on Wine. Yeah, that's kind of what I was saying. A Photoshop or something could be, at some point, usable because Wine would be so far

expanded on. Right. It would make it viable for future games too. Yeah. Riley, go ahead on you know, expanded on. Right. It would make it viable for future games too. or whatever. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. So,

Riley, go ahead on, maybe you think they took the wrong approach. I'd like to hear your thoughts on that. Yeah, my main issue

with all this is how they, like, how people discovered it because they didn't, like, originally say it was a rapper

and said, oh, hey, here's a good one for it and by the way, it's going to be this amount of money but it ran horrible

and it took people like, having to, like, look's going to be this amount of money, but it ran horrible and it took people having to look at it to figure out there was a wrapper. You've got to be upfront about those things at first and make people be more accepting about it. That was the position I took on the Linux Action Show, but then I started thinking about Liam's point about

creating a bad reputation for Linux gaming, and then I thought, you know, geez, if you're putting it right there in bold letters in the description, this is a wrapped game. It's almost like you're screaming attention to the fact that the games on Linux are a bit of a second-class citizen in some cases. So I do, as a buyer, I want the disclosure.

As somebody who wants to see Linux advance as a gaming platform, I'm not so sure I want our games branded with their weaknesses necessarily. Is that one screwed up thing or what? It's the way they brand it. Like if you branded it with, you know, it's a wrapped game or something like that, it would be bad. But what if you said, you know, wine enabled or powered by wine or something like that?

People who know what that means would recognize that, but it wouldn't have some kind of stigma attached to it. means would recognize that, but it wouldn't have some kind of stigma attached to it. Yeah, it would be nice if wine carried a cachet that was like powered by wine. Oh, wow, this game is powered by wine. It would probably work on my system, not

powered by wine. Oh, crap, it's a nasty port that's just the winner's version. It becomes a brand you almost want to be associated with. And Colonel Lynx, I think that's sort of what Kernel Links was trying to get at. I'm not positive, but I suspect he thinks that rappers make games look like Linux was an afterthought. Well, so my thought, so here's the thing, is let's not forget what Wine is. Wine exists so that we can run window software on linux it's not when you say something

like powered by wine it's not like it's some sort of you know fancy game engine uh that was developed to give an advantage to gamers even though like you were saying in certain use case scenarios that seems to be how it works out but the reality of it is it's it's a compromise it's it's developers use it because they don't actually want to commit to linux and that bothers me well what about like no that's that's that's not true wine exactly is something that empowers linux users to run software that wasn't written for their platform it's a it's a brilliant piece of software it's still a hack job though it's still a hack job no no it's but it needs to be continued. That's why the more

work we put into Wine, the better it gets. And like, for example, the gaming thing, yeah, it's an afterthought, but it already is an afterthought. That's why Wine makes it possible to make that afterthought a reality. Yeah, and maybe you couldn't have Wine be like this prestigious brand,

but you might be able to have a pretty good reputation. I mean, just look at DOSBox. Like, when you hear good old games are selling a game and it ships in DOSBox, your first thought is, oh, well, I know that's probably just going to work flawlessly, because DOSBox just handles that for me. And Wine could get to that point, I think, where Wine

has a... oh, it ships with Wine? Well, I mean, I know that's not native, but I know because it ships with Wine it's just going to work flawlessly. Just like we think about DOSBox games now. I'd rather have an afterthought than no thought. Go ahead. Exactly. Go ahead, Colonel.

And I don't disagree with, I'm glad, don't get me wrong, I am very happy that the wine project exists. I think they do a lot of good, and I think it works very, very well in a lot of cases what i'm getting at is that the the the mentality behind the reason wine exists is because i mean at the end of the day wouldn't it be better if the and i'm not saying that this would happen but wouldn't it be better if developers said we're going to develop for linux because we're just because that's that's what we want to that's the open platform and that's where we see our development and so i'm glad that wine exists, but I still feel like it's a compromise. Right. I agree with,

I agree with you, Colonel, that that will be an amazing thing if we lived on that planet, but we don't, we live on planet earth where developers don't see that as their primary goal. Their primary goal is to get as many people buying their software as possible. And if that means,

if that means getting it onto people's machines via a shim, a layer that enables them to do minimal effort in order to deliver it to as many people as possible, then well done then. Well, and that's how a lot of software development is done too. I mean, let's look at a lot of platforms like Android. There's layers of it. And I think too, I see it as a transitional thing. Because I think like Popey's saying, we do live in the world right now where it's suicide if you only targeted Linux as a large gaming shop. It might work as an indie, but as a large gaming

shop, you'd literally have to shut the doors. So you can understand their business perspective of it, but it doesn't mean that maybe that will be the case in 10 years. I mean, we're looking at this, you know, we look at this in a very, you know, maybe occasionally at a five-year perspective. But the reality is, is that unlike a commercial operating system like Windows or Mac OS X, there is a much longer curve potential for Linux. And 5, 10 years could be short term for Linux desktop. That could be, you know, who knows? So who knows what it's going to look like in five, 10 years? Maybe it'll be the other way around. Maybe there'll be some sort of shim that people are using to run GL games on top of windows properly. We'll just have to find out. But yeah, I don't like the precedent. I don't want to set the reputation because I don't want Linux to get in the spot

where the Mac is right now, where, uh, now, where the drivers aren't so hot, which is the fact the Linux drivers are already better. It won't. If you look at Steam now, compared to Steam two years ago, where there was Windows and Mac, then along came Linux, and Valve made a big thing about being available on the Linux desktop.

And now it's pretty obvious that the whole reason for that was a stepping stone towards SteamOS. In fact, if you look at Steam now and you look at the categories of applications available in Steam, there is Windows, Mac, and the last category is SteamOS plus Linux. So it's quite clear that Linux is seen as a primary goal for Valve, and they are pushing it to developers as much as they can. So I don't see Linux becoming nearly like OS X. That's the difference. Yeah.

Yeah, you nailed it. Exactly. That's exactly how I see it too. Linux is a much more serious platform for Valve. And it's because of that long tail where, this sounds so corny, but it's literally the advantage of basing your platform and product around Linux is in a very real sense, you get to dictate the future of your own product where when they're attached to Windows, they're attached to whatever the crazy shenanigans Microsoft wants to pull off. And that was long-term. It's not viable for them. And it would make sense. I mean, could you imagine if I was Gabe, man, I would

be up at night worried about what's going to happen to Microsoft and Windows because that's where all my money's coming from. So of course I'd want to take that under my own control. I think he wasn, and that's why we're looking at SteamOS and Linux ports of all the games. Right. Yeah, exactly. And so I think

that's why I'm not as worried about these kind of shims now, because I don't think we're going to get stuck in Mac land for exactly the reasons Popey just said. So that, our friends... Woo, that's loud! Woo! That's our Valve update. Ooh. Ooh. Boy, did you feel that one, Matt?. That's our Valve update. Ooh. Ooh.

Boy, did you feel that one, Matt? Could you feel that Valve update? I felt that clear down here. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, okay, so, Liam, thank you very much for joining us. You, my friend, are welcome to not only stay for the rest of the show, but join us anytime. I know it's a little late where you're at, but join us anytime.

The Mumble Room's open. And we'd love to have your input. And keep up the great work at Gaming on Linux and the writing for Linux Voice as well. We'll have links to those Twitter feeds in the show notes if folks want to check out Liam and Gaming on Linux. So, alright.

I have a big announcement to make. So everybody knows that we've been working on a show. Another Linux show. How to Linux. And so that is not what I'm going to talk about today. That's very close, though, too. So it's very, very close.

I check the site often next week, potentially, if everything goes as planned. But maybe the week after. Who knows? How to Linux is very close, though. But I i'm gonna tell you about something else i'm doing another show that has been it's been on my mind since we canceled jupiter at night and i i jupiter night if you're not familiar because it's a long time ago and not a lot of people watched it one of the reasons why we canceled it it was a it was a nightly show. Every night, except for Fridays. And man, oh man, is that a big commitment.

But I like the idea of it. I've always liked the idea of doing a daily show. And I like the idea of doing a daily tech show. Because I think a lot of you guys know, especially if you've listened to the back catalog of Linux Unplugged, I'm not super happy with the state of journalism, specifically in the open source and Linux arenas. I think it's pretty crap.

And I think the journalism that I do like, like there's daily tech shows out there I respect a lot, like Tom Merritt's Daily Tech News Show. He's a really good show, and he does it on his own. He's funded through Patreon. And I have a lot of respect for his work. But there's, you know, even in that case, even in Tom's case, where he has a really good show, I don't want to offend people,

but there's sometimes a valley bias when you're in the valley. And there's a Google and Apple bias. And all of these networks have tech shows, but they're looking at them from the perspective of a Mac user or a Google advocate or a Windows user, right? There's nobody that's looking at it that is thinking about things in terms of open source, in terms of community. And a lot of times, a lot of times what drives me so crazy is they'll be covering and talking about a technology that's already existed in open source for years and they have no idea it even exists because it's just not on their radar and it's not giving it fair coverage. So I was thinking about a daily show that would start next week called Tech Talk Today, Monday through Thursday at 9 a.m. Pacific, noon Eastern, 7 p.m. GMT.

We'll do a daily show Monday through Thursday, and that'll be just sort of kicking off the day, the broadcast day at JB1 every single day, released for download a little bit later. We picked 9 a.m. because it gives you, there's a, there's a sort of a lull between online streams at that time of other morning shows. It also means on the East Coast, it'll be lunchtime, so people might be able to join us during their lunch break. And I think we can also then get the show out in time for people's commute. And it'll be 7 p.m. GMT,

so folks over there can maybe listen after dinner. So I think that's going to be, it's really an experiment. I mean, because a daily show is a lifestyle. It's a huge commitment. It really is, it's crazy. And what I want to do is I want to have a rotating cast

of friends who join me. I mean, sometimes I might just do it solo, but I want to have something where we get to hear from different voices, from our hosts, from folks on Mumble. And I would even love to have, yes, yes. Yeah, I see you're starting to get, I see where I was going earlier, aren't you? Yeah. Yes, because I was doing a little teasing on the pre-show and I know this one, this last one might be crazy, but gosh, it'd be fun to even sometimes have people in studio. I mean like,

obviously like I'll have, I'll have Ange and Chase and studio from time to time and, uh, those kinds of things. And, you know, obviously called Matt on Skype. So we'll do all our regulars.

I'd love to have some folks in studio and, uh, it's going to be because it is daily. It's going to kind of allow for the show to meander a bit. And I want to kind of underscore something. It's not going to be just the tech news headlines. I mean, a lot of times it will be a topic and discussion derived from the tech news of the day, looked at through the perspective of a Linux and open source user.

And not like it's going to be heavily biased in one direction, but it's going to at least, that perspective will at least be considered when these topics are discussed. And I think sometimes that can provide a special kind of insight that gets missed in the daily analysis. So the show is going to be able to do that on a day to day basis. I'm going to be honest with you guys, though. This is going to be my show. OK, this is just going to be something I'm doing. And sometimes when there's not going on, I might talk about barbecue.

I mean, really, this is going to be when you're doing a daily show. Huh? Yum. Yeah, I know, right? Yeah. I mean, that might be okay, right? So I don't have all the details totally worked out yet because, you know, like one of the things we're considering doing is maybe having a, I don't know, it might not be, well, I don't know if it's going to be video yet. I'm still working that out because we can do a lot quicker turnaround if it's audio only. But I have a feeling we'll do video so that way we can put it up on YouTube and stuff like that.

So it'll probably be video and audio. It'll be audio focused though so that way we can do quick turnaround. The daily format, you know, what I kind of am envisioning is we're going to do discussion. We'll have at the beginning talk about one or two big topics. Essentially, instead of hitting you with all the stupid crap, uh, we'll just talk about the one or two stories that actually matter that day, have a little discussion around them, and then take mumble feedback and calls towards the latter half of the show. I've also got some plans I'll talk more about in the show for the days I can't make it. So that way we'll still have a broadcast. I've got something kind of fun planned there that longtime fans might recognize

that I've wanted to do for a while too. So we've even got kind of a good filler for the days where maybe for some reason I can't actually get in the studio and do a show that morning. Because man, 9 a.m. is early. I mean, let's just be honest. I was actually, the first time I thought about it,

I was like, should I do it at 6 a.m.? Nope, nope, take that right off the table. Can't do it at 6 a.m.? Nope, nope. Take that right off the table. Can't do it at 6 a.m. So here's kind of the second big shoe that drops on this. There's going to be advertising maybe. I'm thinking about maybe doing, I don't know. It depends on if advertisers are interested. I was also considering making a community spot where maybe we could do a discounted community ad for something going on out there or distribution i don't know i don't know it'll depend on sponsor interest because one of the other things i think i want to do is i think i'm going to make this a patreon funded show and it's it's more than just about the show on patreon uh and and we might base the

funding on a certain levels there won't be any sponsorships. It'll be ad-free. But what I want to do is I want to create a funding source for the network. So essentially, this Patreon that I'll be setting up will be a general fund that the revenue from that fund will go into the JB1 studio. Upgrades, facility upgrades, hardware. And it'll be a way for the community to use Patreon to fund the Jupiter Broadcasting Network, help our growth because we are, you know, we have exceedingly new, higher new expenses. I mean, just from where we went from moving to JB1, recording out of my house to a dedicated townhouse with staff and new equipment. I mean, it's just our expenses are beyond what they've ever been. We knew that would happen. But the question I have to ask myself is, do I want to press more on the advertising side or do I want to experiment with Patreon? Because like I said, this show itself is a grand experiment. I mean, a daily show? I don't know. Can I do it? Can I fund future developments of the network through a Patreon model?

a Patreon model and as a thank you we create a daily show and we create an exclusive club of folks who are supporting us through Patreon and we'll set milestones up so you'll know what things we bring into the studio, what the different milestones get us and I also want to see if we can do things like potentially get the funding to a level

where I could finally go on the road and do a road show. I've been talking about taking shows on the road for over a year now the problem is we need a good financial position to be able to stand on do a road show. I've been talking about taking shows on the road for over a year now. The problem is, is we need a good financial position to be able to stand on. And right now I'm really comfortable with our advertising model because we have a very small selective advertisers that we genuinely all of the hosts really love and we're happy to talk about. And I feel like right now we have a good balance between content and ads. And I don't, I'm not totally opposed to adding more ads, adding more ads.

But I think maybe the better route to go is through the Patreon system because it has been a smashing success for Unfiltered. People have switched over to love it because the financing is right up in front and center. You know, just like a Kickstarter project. It's right there. You can see where we're at. You see what our milestones are. You see once we reach each milestone, what we get.

There's a content distribution system built in just for folks who are patrons so we can have exclusive content through this portal for them. It's a really cool system. If you want to see it, how we do it for Unfilter, just go to patreon.com slash unfilter.

And right now, through Patreon, let me see, you know, I'll pull it up on the screen right now because I think we're over $2,000 now getting raised on Patreon for Unfilter, which to me, this is a huge, because, you know, this is going to fundamentally change independent media production. Because it really makes the show accountable to the audience. When you have a crowdfunded show like this, it's no longer picking the content that gets the most clicks that then generates the highest numbers for advertisers. It's about generating content that makes that 181 people happy. Think about the difference in content creation when you're trying to make 181 people happy versus as many freaking clicks as you can get so that way you

can charge advertisers. That changes the fundamental recipe of a show. And I want to apply that to a daily show where we talk about tech, we talk about news from a Linux and open source perspective, and that money is used to fund the future growth of Jupyter Broadcasting. I don't know if it's possible. Like I said, it's an experiment. And I want to start it on Monday. So that's really soon. Because, you know, it's something we've been thinking about for a long time, but to actually pull the trigger on a daily show like that, I don't know if I can do it, but I'm going to give it a go.

I'm excited about it. How long would this show be? About 15 to 30 minutes, depending on the topic of the day. And would it be only working weekday or weekends as well? Monday through Thursday. Ah, so the American definition.

Well, I hate working on... The daily show definition. Essentially what it is, because Fridays are all packed with behind-the-scenes business stuff that I need to be off-air for, like phone calls and emails and stuff like that. I have to say, this is the first I've heard of it, and it sounds brilliant.

Thank you. Well, I wanted to invite you on the Monday show as my co-host. Oh, hang on. I know. I know. I'm just bringing it on you in the air. But that was my intention because I want to, you know, we have great discussions in the mumble room, and you'll be one of many that I want to pull in and just have a one-off,

really casual. I mean, this show is going to be extremely low-key. It's something that you'll be able to pop in you're not going to get hit in the face too hard it's going to like if you had a long day you can drive home to it if you're getting ready in the morning you can listen to it it's not actually to be honest it might be a tad offensive sometimes because i was thinking about just being brutally honest about stuff not holding anything back but like uh i'd prefer it i think that'd be the way to go yeah you know i agree with

that i think that like it's being more relaxed and uh just shooting the breeze but being very tight yeah and having a focus i like the sound of that yeah and it's also it's going to be a great way for folks who like you guys know we have a bunch of shows on the network but you know you don't always have time to listen to every single one so in a sense it'll be a network show too where i can say hey you know this week on bsd now they interviewed one of the co-founders and co-creators of ZFS. So if you're interested in ZFS, you might want to tune in this week. Like we can give mentions to that kind of stuff. So people who will have essentially a master Jupyter broadcasting feed to get updated on that kind of stuff.

So I don't know. I mean, I told myself when I stopped doing Jupiter at night, if I ever started doing a daily show again, I'd have to, like, really commit to it. So we're calling it Tech Talk Today. Tech Talk Today, TTT. And I've already registered Tech Talk Dot Today. So, I mean, that seems like a done deal because I got Dot Today.

It's like, okay, that's the name. Dot Today. So you're selling the name then. Yeah. Yeah, I like that. So anyways. Yeah. Marinate on that, Popey. I'd love to have you join me, and we'll set up times with folks in the Mumble Room, and you guys can come on there.

Colonel Lennox, I'm looking at you as potentially another one, and get Ick on there as well, and Rotten. A bunch of people, it's just as time goes on and we have good conversations in the Mumble Room, I might pull people aside and say, hey, do you have some time? The other thing that's cool about it is we might, like Liam right now, it's late where he's at. I could maybe do something with him earlier in the day to help people across the pond who are staying up really late to chat with us at 2 p.m. at Pacific time. So I think it's going to give us an opportunity to also pull in folks from the other side to get another perspective on things. I'm looking really forward to that. Maybe get a few accents on the air from time to time instead of just my droll. I will warn you, though, there's the times where, you know, it's a daily show. I maybe just didn't have time to line somebody up.

It might just be me complaining about something. Yeah. If you can't have Popey, I'll do his accent for you. Okay. Hold on. As long as we can get Dave trying to get to southern accents. Yeah, or we can do Southern accents too. Wouldn't everyday show be overwhelming and people would just stop watching it because it's everyday and then just can't watch it?

Yeah. No. For some. I mean, that's going to happen for some people, but then for some people, they won't be able to get enough. I think it might be cool because it's kind of like a back thing. The length that he's talking about keeping it at, I don't think it'll be a problem because it's literally like you're doing it while you're washing dishes or something i mean it's really not a big time commitment yeah so i don't think that'll be a problem for yeah you got another 20 minutes in your commute you can round off your

your podcast listening with this show uh i frequently find myself uh lost to find you know interesting content to listen to i'm not saying we'll fit that gap but i hope it does actually let's literally what my goal with the show is just to have an interesting show every day and there'll be some days where it's very tech focused very linux focused and there'll be some days where maybe it's you know a little off the beaten path but i think that's what's kind of fun is to have a show where we have a little room to do that and see what comes of it and see who we meet in the community and all kinds of things.

So I'm kind of looking forward to it. So it'll start on Monday if I get all my ass together, which I better now that I've said something on the air. Tech Talk today starting next Monday. Let's see. So if we're recording this on the 27th,

that means June 2nd, first Monday of June. I'd love to have you guys join us live because I'm going to try to have the mumble room open too so we can get a little bit of a morning call-in effect going where I'll maybe set up a topic and then you guys can kick it around with me. Cool.

Yeah, and eventually we'll go to 24-7 coverage. No, no. We'll see how far we get. Breaking news. I think I would be very happy and very proud if we could find a really cool way to fund the network give you guys a new show

make something that's truly independent media while doing it I mean I'm loving the potential of it and I know Patreon's a new thing it's going to be a new system some people have to go create accounts trust me I've been doing it for a few months now it's a really good system. I'm really excited.

So join me on Monday, Tech Talk Today Live, 9 a.m. Pacific, 12 p.m. Eastern, 7 p.m. GMT. Let's see how it goes. And give it some time because it's going to be a new show. We'll see how it goes. But I want to hear your feedback, too. And I'll set up email addresses and all that kind of stuff soon as well. All right. Well, that's all I had for this week on the Linux Unplugged.

Just some announcements, some discussion, pretty good show overall. And we have some really good interviews coming up on both Unplugged and LAS. If all the timing works out, I'll talk about a little bit in the post show just so that way I don't commit anybody to something they can't make on air. But join us on Sunday for a really good interview about an up-and-coming distribution that a few of you have written in about and asked about, and we're going to talk with the developers, and we'll have a follow-up interview of all the timing works out. We're still trying to get it scheduled in Tuesdays on Plugs. We've got a couple of back-to-back interviews that I think you guys will particularly find fascinating. So join us for

that. If you don't know, you can hang out live in our virtual lug or in our chat room over at jblive.tv on Tuesdays at 2 p.m. Pacific. Just go to jupiterbroadcasting.com slash calendar where we have robots that in the background, they look it up on Wolfram Alpha and then they modify the HTML code in real time and post it on that Jupiter Broadcasting calendar site for you automatically. So you might as well go over there and take advantage of that because why else am I paying all that money for those robots? So jupyterbroadcasting.com slash calendar to get the show time in your local time zone. And then you can always join us live for the Linux Action Show on Sunday at 10 a.m. Pacific. And don't forget, we want your feedback. Go over to jupyterbroadcasting.com slash contact. Choose Linux Unplugged from the drop down. I know. I know. It's crazy. Send us your feedback.

We'll read it on a future episode. Also, hit up the subreddit linuxactionshow.reddit.com to integrate your links and feedback directly into the community. It's like the Borg. All right, Matt. Well, I'll see you on Sunday for a good Linux Action Show, okay? All right, see you Sunday. All right, everyone.

Thanks so much for tuning in to this week's episode of Linux Unplugged. We'll see you right back here next Tuesday. Thank you. you