LINUX Unplugged - Episode 44: Bedrock: A New Paradigm | LUP 44

Episode Date: June 11, 2014

The founder of Bedrock Linux joins us to discuss their ambitious distribution that lets you utilize the userland of all your favorite distributions at oncePlus Alienware slaps Linux users in the face with a dead fish, your feedback, and more!

This is Linux Unplugged, episode weekly Linux talk show that's yabba-dabba excited to talk about Bedrock Linux. My name is Chris. And my name is Matt. Hey, Matt. Episode 44, and we've got the founder of Bedrock Linux on the line waiting for us just to get to him. He's been patiently here all pre-show. We've had a fun pre-show today. And I'm excited to kind of uncover Bedrock Linux a little more. It's a pretty interesting distro that we reviewed on Sunday's Linux Action Show.

I believe it was episode 316, if you haven't seen that one. It's not required reading, but highly suggested reading if you want to be well-rounded. And we'll also get to some feedback, and if we've got some time. Matt, something's got me upset all day. Alienware has slapped Linux users in the face. They've taken a trout that's like two days old,

and they just slapped us all in the face with it. And i can't believe it so we're going to get to that as well plus we've got some steam updates and a couple other things so good show today i'm excited about all this stuff so uh i figured maybe if we were uh if we were so inclined we'd start with our feedback and our first email this weekend we'll get to just a couple of emails and then we're going to get right to the bedrock linux stuff but I had a couple of things I wanted to start with. And the first one came from John. And John wrote in to kind of rib us Arch users. He says, Hey, Chris and Matt, I just have to tease you for beginning your show by talking about Arch regressions, and then go on to worry about Mint having potential to break. Currently, Linux Mint

works, and there are a few problems I have with it. Yeah, it might not work right on other distros, but I, and I think he's talking about Cinnamon, I honestly doubt if Clem even cares about that. A quick look at the Linux Mint website will tell you they are self-sustaining distro, and they are self-financed too. Maybe this is Mint's way of pushing back at the ultra-accelerated pace that distros like Arch rev up. What is wrong with Debian's style of a revving a distro? Maybe it's an issue of two different worlds. One world that's building a future of Linux, and then there's the world that uses Linux to do things unrelated to the development

of Linux. Those who want something that works because it's been rigorously tested. Cheers, John. So, Matt, do you think maybe this is the Linux Mint's push back at this crazy rolling distro world that we seem to be moving towards? I think maybe inadvertently.

I don't think it's done on purpose or with any type of real direct pushback. But I definitely think that they're going for some stability, and they're also catering to a different audience of people. Yeah, and I think there is a bit of like two worlds at play here too. And I also think it's a good point that Linux Mint doesn't really need Cinnamon or Matei to be used anywhere else. I mean it's in their benefit and best interest if it does, and I'm sure they want to see it used elsewhere. But they are self-funded by their users, and so that allows them the flexibility to really focus on just building what they think is best for them, and if that means creating their own desktop that only they have, if that's what Clem believes is the way to accomplish that mission, it makes sense that's what he's going to do.

So yeah, I think it's interesting. We'll see. We'll keep watching it. I actually am really glad they're doing it. I think it's a grand experiment because I've always speculated, like, if I had a perfect Linux distro, it would be something kind of like what Linux Mint is doing or like Elementary does, where only it would be more user land updates, really fresh user land, but really stable-based stuff as much as possible.

And that's essentially what we're going to see from Mint. So it's an experiment that I've been rattling around the back of my brain for a long time, and now we're going to see it come to life. So my cookie wrote in. My cookie. He says, hi, Chris. And we got this a lot, and this is just a nice, concise question, so I wanted to get to this. On a previous unplug, you hinted that Chase might end up on Linux Mint after thinking on what to choose. Yet, once I watched the episode, he ended up on Ubuntu. Why did Chase choose Ubuntu over Linux Mint? Now, I wanted to get to this here because

we've talked a lot about how to Linux here in the show. And the current format of how to Linux is really the representation of months and months of thinking, like in Chase, you know, thinking about switching. And so we've come to a lot of, we've had a lot of discussions and conclusions outside the show.

And then what you see in the show is the manifestation of all that work. And the essential reason was we figured a lot of people watching will be starting there. We're not sticking with any one particular distribution. And Chase essential reason was because we figured a lot of people watching will be starting there. We're not sticking with any one particular distribution. And Chase kind of felt like, because the choice was so

overwhelming, he was willing to hold off on making full-gone conclusions and try out Ubuntu, see what he thought, and then also be willing to try other things. So you'll have to stay tuned to find out what happens there, my cookie. But one of the biggest pieces of feedback was, why didn't you put the explanation

in the show? It's because we'd already decided before the show, and it's just a process. And we wanted to make it quick, because we feel that's where a lot of people are going to start. So thanks for asking, my cookie. Matt, before we get on, before we get on to the rest of the show, and we've got one more email, I want to stop right here and thank Ting. That's right.

Go over to linux.ting.com. That'll save $25 off your first device, or $25 off your first month of service. And we got an email, came in from Brad. He says, Dear Chris and Matt, bam, I've switched to Ting. I've been saving up for a phone so I could make the switch. And I finally accumulated the scratch and bought a Nexus 5. Booyah. I've been getting boned by T-Mobile for years now, and now I'm free. Free, I say. I mean, it was like walking in McDonald's and paying for nine hamburgers and only eating one every month.

What the? Who does that? I activated my phone entirely online in like 10 minutes, and like Chris likes to say, Bob indeed was made my uncle. With Ting, I'm totally only paying for what I use, which isn't much. And currently, with the last discount, I get the first month for free. I actually ended up only, oh, I'm sorry. I only ended up owing them a buck.

Seriously, a buck. A friggin' dollar. So thanks, gentlemen. If you're ever in LA, I owe you a coupious amount of beer. Sincerely, Brad. And his last name is pronounced Kale. Like the healthy snack. So go over to linux.ting.com to check it out, Ting.

Why is Ting different? Because there's no contracts, there's no early termination fee, and like Brad said, you only pay for what you use. It's a flat $6 plus whatever the man's gonna put on top of that. He's gotta get his cut, he or she. The man's really not an actual person.

And then it's just your usage. So your megabytes, your messages, your minutes, whatever buckets you fall into after all that's added up, that's what you pay. And be like Brad. I recommend, go get the Nexus 5, $349. That's you own it price. That's not you spreading the cost out over two years. That's what you own. And just like when you bought yourself a computer, you'll want to own it. It's your device. That's what's great about Ting. You get this Nexus 5, one of the best Android phones out there, even still today, $350 when you go to linux.ting.com. Then it's $6 a month after that. That's all you pay. Your usage plus Ting has an

awesome dashboard that lets you manage it. And best of all, if you ever get stuck or if you want to have multiple people on your account, you'll appreciate this one. They have rocking good customer service. You can call them anytime between 8 a.m. or 8 p.m. Eastern at 1-855-TING-FTW, and a real person answers the phone. And that person is not like a, oh, hi, thanks for calling Ting. Please hold, or what's your problem? No, that person's like, hi, thanks for calling Ting. How can I help you?

I'm actually the person that's going to help you. And yes, a real person just answered the phone when you called a company's support number. It's incredible. And like Brad said, their control panel is so awesome. Matt and I have both activated and deactivated multiple devices all through the online control panel with zero problems. It's awesome. And if we ever did get stuck, we know we have that customer service. It's really nice. Linux.ting.com. That'll tell them, hey, thanks for supporting Linux Unplugged. I really appreciate you guys keeping them on the air. That also gives you a chance to try out their savings calculator. Just

plug your current bill in. Now think about this too. When you're plugging your bill into their savings calculator, put the numbers in that you actually use, not what you pay into. Because that's a gimmick that your cell carrier has tricked you into thinking is the way to pay for things. When you're doing their savings calculator, put your actual usage in there and then be astonished at the difference. Linux.ting.com. And a big thank you to Ting for sponsoring

Linux Unplugged. You guys rock. And go over to their blog, too. They've got another behind-the-scenes video they just posted up that you guys might want to check out. So, Matt, join us on the mumble line is the founder of Bedrock Linux, Paradigm. Hey, Paradigm, welcome to the show. Welcome to the show. Thanks for being here, man. We really appreciate it. So So tell us, when did you start working on Paradigm? On Bedrock, you mean, I assume. Oh, yeah, sorry, Bedrock. Yeah, I think we're both tired.

It's been a long day. So I started, there isn't really a good firm starting date. I didn't realize what it became when I started playing around with it. Yeah. So I'm guessing around 2008 to 2010 was when the idea started formulating before it got anywhere. And then the first public release was 2012. And I gather like a lot of projects, it was really like, this is just something I want.

Like, I'm sick of having to pick between Debian and Arch or whatever. You just looked at it all and said, I want all of it at once, right? Yes, exactly. That's bold. And how has the response been to this? Because I know, I mean, I've seen presentations far back as 2012. But yet, I still don't see a lot of talk about it. I am seeing more these days. So do you think response is improving? Are people starting to grok the idea? I think the main concern, the main thing keeping people away is that it's still labeled alpha. I think the main concern, the main thing keeping people away, is that it's still labeled alpha.

There's still a lot of work that has to be done. I expect that when we're past that and it's a stable release, if there's going to be more attention, that's when it's going to happen. I'm okay with the slow development. Sure. It's actually kind of a good thing in a way, isn't it? Because it sort of slowly brings in more people and sort of doesn't make it an insane base that's all of a sudden using your code. So would you mind, in your own words, summarizing what Bedrock Linux is and what makes it different for maybe folks who didn't watch the Sunday's Linux Action Show? Sure. I'll try to use a different phrasing than I did when you quoted me earlier on the show Sunday. So when you use a Linux distribution, what they actually do for you is provide a lot of software that

they've packaged. It's all out there. The question is whose packages you put together to make sure it all works. But you have to pick which group of packages from which distribution. If you want something stable, you know, like RHEL or Debian. If you want something cutting edge, you can go something like Arch and so on and so on. Every distro has its own advantages and disadvantages. The idea behind Bedrock Linux is that you can install software from any of those distributions so that it runs natively just like it was needed for the distro. No VM overhead, no containers restricting what you can do. Just if you want parts from different distros at the same time, Bedrock is one way to go about it.

Now, if you were starting Bedrock today, 2014 of June, would you start with something that was more Docker-based? Or do you still think that this is perhaps a different approach or a better approach than just straight up containerization? So I actually just added today a new frequently asked questions thing on Docker since that has come quite a bit. Right. Docker is doing something different. Docker is purposefully containing things so that they can't interact with each other. There's a lot of benefits to this. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, but it's a very different goal. If you're using Docker, you can't, for example, say install some program and then run man and get the man page for it. You have to actually go into the Docker container for it. So no, I would not switch

the techniques. I still think that the technique I'm currently using is about the best way to go about it, given the resources I have at hand. And I think the thing to underscore here is this isn't virtualization. And so it is native metal performance. And I could have an application running from an Arch client and an application running from a Firefox client, and they could interact, they could pass data amongst each other. Yes, exactly. For the most part, it all feels native. Like if you don't realize, if you don't do anything to point out data usage, it feels like any other distro. So does this get massive on the disk? Do I end up essentially with the equivalent of a full Arch installation, a Debian installation, an Ubuntu, a Fedora, whatever I decide to install as a client?

Do I need to have just a ton of disk space? That is definitely an issue with the techniques we're currently using. We have some ideas on how to fix that in the long term, but we're not going to get them done anytime soon. Yeah, I mean, how would you even go about that? The main concern with that is actually telling the package managers that certain dependencies have been met elsewhere, and you have to go do a lot of work specific to each package manager

to get that done in an automated fashion. It's also not entirely clear that a given library will meet the needs from a different distro. So what ends up happening on Bedrock right now is that you'll have multiple versions of any given dependency if multiple things need them.

They're not shared. But there are some theoretical things that could be done if it's a high enough priority. Could I run multiple versions of the same distribution? So could I have 1204 and 1404 as clients and mix and match between those two? Sure, yeah. Jeez Louise, that's awesome.

That's so awesome. I think I look at Bedrock Linux as maybe a powered desktop Linux user's perfect scenario. Is that who you're targeting in your mind when you're developing this? So the key target audience for Bedrock Linux is myself. If other people want to use it, great. But I'm just trying to make it for me. And it's for your desktop? Or server.

Do you run it on a server? Or laptop. I do. I'm not convinced it's the best option. I think something like core os will give you a lot of advantages what bedrock does isn't as helpful on a server because things aren't just like they don't need to interact quite as much as they would on desktop but it works fine okay well i've got some uh some functionality and usage uh questions for you so i'm going to uh and

also i'll move us up into the main mumble room, too, so they can jump in and ask questions. So I guess where I wanted to start with is, are there already tools in place to do all client updates so I could execute a yum upgrade and an app get dash upgrade and a Pac-Man upgrade from one bedrock command? So we had one that did that, but I decided I wanted the name of that utility used elsewhere. We ended up dropping it temporarily. In the long term, we want to have, we have a project that we're calling the Package Manager Manager, or PMM. And in theory, you could run some PMM commands that would do that. Okay. And then I kind of also had a question. I noticed, how do you choose the kernel? So my Bedrock installation was using an Arch kernel. Is that something, that installation, you just pick the distro's kernel you want? Originally, I think the first alpha,

I recommended compiling your own kernel, which kept a lot of people away. But after some experimentation, I realized that for the most part, any Winix kernel works in just about any distro. You might lose some features like system tap. But yeah, you can just use whatever. So my recommendation is that you install a kernel from

a client and just use that. And so how many people are working on the Bedrock Linux team now? I'm the majority of it. I think well over 90% of the lines of code currently in there are mine, but there are a good number of other people who contribute what they can when they have time.

If I had to give an estimate depending on where you draw the line, it's maybe five total. Wimpy, go ahead. Ask your question. Hi there. I was just curious. What problem were you setting out to solve when you first created Bedrock Linux? So there's a famous story with RMS having trouble with a printer, which is why he started the GNU project. I had a similar issue. I was using Debian Stable at the time.

My printer broke. I got a new one, and the drivers didn't work, and I had to spend a lot of time making that work. When I realized if I could just get this one package from Debian CID or Arch, that would solve that completely. And so I did that. I set that up, and I just kept iterating over it from there until there's its own distro. Thank you. I also like the story you shared where there was a bug with Compiz,

and one distribution had one part of the solution, and the other distribution had the other part of the solution, and you're able to bring those two together. And I've been in that scenario myself, especially, though. See, the reason why I asked you about the desktop question is because I have very, very much been in the server space where we were just on the pre-show talking about Red Hat Enterprise 7. And so many times I've been on a CentOS box or Red Hat Enterprise box, and I've just thought, if I could just manage this one set of applications through apt,

or if I could just get this PPA, or whatever, it would make so much of my work easier. And Bedrock sort of seems to me to have the promise, if I could base the core Bedrock kernel on a CentOS kernel, so essentially I'm CentOS on the whole stack, but Bedrock's

actually managing the user land, I could essentially accomplish that, couldn't I, Paradigm? Yes, and in fact that's what I'm doing on the server. It's exactly the reason. It's mostly dev being stable, but I do have occasional applications from elsewhere. Go ahead, Crossroads. So I was wondering how you'll handle the Inet system. Will you use Systemd or will you write your own custom init system for bedrock? That's actually a really good question. Currently, one of the main areas that

bedrock clinics has issues is init. Most things just work as long as they're not closely tied to init. When bedrock started, there was no systemd. Most things were system 5 or similar and that ended up working quite nicely system d i have to be careful my phrasing here say it's really picky about how it does certain things and it doesn't want to play with bedrock very well so we have to come up with some new uh solutions to that particular issue currently bedrock linux uses its own busybox based in it which is super duduper limited. But in the long term, we're going to try to make other init systems options, just like you can have for the main user lane, whatever packages

you want. I'm going to try to make it so that you can use whatever init system you want. Wow. Riley, go ahead. Yeah, so I was wondering, have you had any issues with the bigger disk shows getting mad at you pulling down their packages and

installing it on Fedlock when it's not really that disc show. I remember a while back that Canonical got mad at Mint for accessing their repos and servers. No, we didn't. Sorry. It's just that's misrepresenting what happened. isn't what happened but go on

but yeah but the broader question is have you heard have you heard any put have you got any pushback from upstream distros yeah accessing the servers i've i've not had anyone uh be upset by by that yet uh i think we may not be big enough yet to get that attention if that's something that's coming later off the handle. However, the question is really, what is the distro that you're using? Is Bedrock Linux just acting like a hypervisor? You're really using some other distro, in which

case you're using the software they're providing and the repos they're providing for that purpose. So there's some arguments to be made. Right, because it is their user land. Yes. Yeah, it's just not their kernel, which, what's the difference if you downloaded Ubuntu and swapped out the kernel? It's almost the same

from the distribution standpoint. Go ahead BluePhoenix, I know you had a question we wanted to get in. What about switching the init system like Gentoo does? Some applications, I mean, Gentoo uses OpenRC, but like if you're going to use GNOME, then you can switch to SystemD. So the trouble with Unite stuff is it gets really complicated.

Specifically, things like Upstart and SystemD, the way they're designed is really inflexible, given what Bedrock Clinics is trying to do and some of the tools we're using. given what Bedrock Clinics is trying to do and some of the tools we're using. Like, SystemD will actually check when it's starting if you're using some of the techniques that Bedrock Clinics does do, and then refuse to operate. So it's not as simple as just switching it out. It's going to be a bit more work. I see Heaven's Revenge has a question. Go ahead, Heavens.

Okay. Well, there is a situation in which I can't quite wrap my head around. Let's say you start from a base system. And of course, you know, you usually start with installing X, at least before you used to go distro or desktop environment first. You'd go X first, then maybe the toolkit, and then maybe the desktop environment. What happens when you go a stable X, pull something bleeding edge, like a bleeding edge KDE or GTK from Arch, and then go back and switch to a stable desktop environment where that is trying to find updated API calls in the stable version of the toolkit that you're using? of the toolkit that you're using.

So if I followed that correctly, your concern is going to be met by the fact that if something has a dependency that will be provided by the same distro, which is one of the reasons we have to take so much disk space because we have multiple copies, a lot of dependencies. So if something is using a given toolkit and they're sad it's missing, they'll end up having their own, so that

doesn't happen. Very good. Is it in a static? No. Literally, there'll be multiple copies of something like GTK. So if something wants one specific version of GTK and something else wants a different version, they'll both be installed on disk and you'll both see those versions. I know some people are going to scoff at the disk space usage there,

but that seems like if you want to do this kind of thing and disks are cheap, that seems like a fair tradeoff for what you're actually getting. So when you install KDE, do you actually install KDE in all of its complete dependency tree from that specific repo or distribution and then have little kind of hierarchies within their own cheroots? Yes. own cheroots? Yes. If you install something like KDE, you'll get the entire, if you're installing it using that given distros package manager and it does its own dependency resolution the way it typically would natively, you'll get all of those dependencies. It's like if you were running that distribution and you just installed KDE, it will do all of the actions it would do when you perform that action. So if it, if you, if there's a meta KDE package that installs 300 dependencies,

it would do that. I was thinking of excess shared containers, which they share a little bit more interdependencies between them, but I guess they're very, very inter-independent of each other. Okay, so I wonder how... Oh, go ahead. Yeah, how closely independent they are or how much they're interacting with each other is configurable given the way they're using it. So if you want to try to do something like that, you can. By default, I'm trying to find a sane compromise between things not conflicting with each other and things just working, interacting the way you'd expect. All right. I want to get a couple more questions in before we go.

So I wanted to have Crossroads kind of finish this up with his last two questions here. Go ahead, Crossroads. Okay, so my first question is how does Bedrock handle GUI? So when you have a GUI running, how does that work? How does one particular client display a GUI? It talks to Exaorg or Wayland the same way it would natively like it doesn't they're not contained it doesn't know

that it's not there it doesn't know that the version of X.org it's talking to happens to be different from what it's used to and my last question was if you could take a time machine five years in the future where would you want to see Bedrock or where do you see it being in five years

I see it being roughly where you see something like slackware here's a popularity like people know it's there not everyone uses it um however it's you know obviously be very different from slackware in terms of what the project's doing i expect i'd like to have a niche number of people who are using in a community but i don't expect it to take over everything. I like that. And so I think we have a lot of people that want to know how they can help contribute. Where should they go to get involved or see if there's a way they could help? So on our website, I have, I think, a quick question item on that. But basically, you can look at our issue tracker. There's something you think you can take.

Go ahead and let me know and go at it. If you see some other issues that are missing from there, you can look at our issue tracker. If there's something you think you can take, go ahead and let me know and go at it. If you see some other issues that are missing from there, you can add them. I think the biggest thing, though, that can be done is to actually install it and use it and let me know what issues you find. Because I can't fix issues that come up in workflows different from mine. Like, I don't actually use many desktop environments. So if there's some issue with those, I wouldn't be aware of them. So, yeah, just use it and let me know how it goes. Very good.

Well, you are welcome to stick around and join us anytime too. The Mumble Room is always open when we're doing the Unplugged show. And I'd like to get your guys' thoughts on this next topic we have coming up too. And we'll discuss more in the post show. So it's been great. And guys, go over to the show notes. We've got links for Bedrock Linux. And I think, I don't know about you, Matt, but Bedrock Linux to me is like one of the most interesting distributions in 10 years.

Oh, easily. I think it could actually set the pace for the way things are done in the future. Maybe not exactly the way it's being done currently, but I think it does set a pace and a different set of expectations that we could watch expand over time. I like that. I like that sort of Slackware has sort of a really soft spot in the community's heart. There's a lot of passionate Slackers out there and, you know, I think it's

still a distribution that carries some weight. Every time we talk about it on the show, we end up hearing from somebody. That's not a bad goal at all. I'd be very happy to have a distribution at that level. And I think it's possible. Bedrock Linux offers something that I think will really appeal to a certain set of Linux users. So you heard the man.

Go out there and try it out. Go to Bedrock Linux's site and download it and deploy it and bang on it for him. It's not necessarily for those of you who are maybe not a little more gray in the beard. It takes some Linux skills, but if you've got some

or if you want to challenge him, you can go do it. And you can always try it out in virtualization too, so you can always snapshot and whatnot. Speaking of which, Matt, I want to thank our next sponsor on the Linux Unplugged show, and that is DigitalOcean. Go over to DigitalOcean.com and guess what? We've got a nice June promo code, UNPLUGGEDJUNE,

to get you a $10 credit over at DigitalOcean. DigitalOcean is simple cloud hosting, and they're dedicated to offering the most intuitive and easy way to spin up a cloud server. Users can create a cloud server in about 55 seconds, maybe less if you're a pro, like our audience. And pricing plans start at only $5 a month for 512 megabytes of RAM, a 20 gigabyte SSD, a blazing fast CPU, and one terabyte of transfer in DigitalOcean. It has data center locations in New York, San Francisco, Singapore, and Amsterdam. Man, I'd love to be the IT guy that gets sent to work at the Amsterdam data center. And of course, their interface is simple. Their control panel is intuitive, and power users can replicate it on a much larger scale with their API. And you're seeing people take advantage of that in really cool ways. There's so many great things I could talk about with DigitalOcean.

I think what I'd like to focus on is how much I really appreciate how they've rocked so many aspects of this. It is a combination of their dashboard that I talk a lot about. It's a combination of those SSD drives, which is an early investment. I think they really saw the light on that. It's the really great utilization of KVM to get the density on these things so incredibly high. And one of the other things that's really fantastic about DigitalOcean is they have been on the cutting edge of Docker support. Docker 1.0 came out yesterday. DigitalOcean is already down with it, man. And the great thing about DigitalOcean is they're making it really easy to deploy some really great open source tools and things like GitLab. You can deploy GitLab to

a droplet on DigitalOcean in no time. It's things like this where you can make a template image and then redeploy it when you need. And they have hourly this, where you can make a template image and then redeploy it when you need, and they have hourly pricing, so you can take this template, get it up and running, bang on it for a few hours, and shut it down. And with our $10 credit when you use Unplugged June, that's going to last forever. I mean, it's this value combined with this technology, and it's the technology that we all support. It's the technology that we all love. Combined with their investment SSDs, these data centers all over the world, they really are a really cool company.

And they're doing something different. They have a different recipe than everybody else. And that's why developers and Linux users and power users and people that just want to learn alike are all responding so strongly to DigitalOcean. Go to DigitalOcean.com and use the promo code UNPLUGGEDJUNE. Go get a $10 credit. Try out the $5 rig for two months you'll just get it for for two months for free that's a terabyte of transfer you can use and just put

bit torrent sync up there put own cloud up there just begin to take back and control a little part put subsonic up there shoot i don't know put plex up don't know i don't know about that maybe put a vpn up there maybe you put a vp Then you could do it. Well, here's what I did. And I wouldn't necessarily go with that direction in the media, but I think so far. Well, we have some folks that do have Plex up there. You know, it could work, right? It could work, but I would want to make it secure. Yeah, you want it to make it secure.

I mean, for myself, I'm actually looking at doing an own cloud slash BitTorrent sync situation. Totally, totally. Because I really want to make sure I have access to my documents no matter where I'm going. I'm also looking to drop Dropbox. So this is a project I've taken up recently. And I was originally just doing it, just the BitTorrent sync part at my house. But as soon as I started putting stuff up on my DigitalOcean droplet,

then it was like, oh, wait a minute. Now I can get to it from my Android phone when I'm on the road without having to mess with any firewall stuff on my home router. And then it's like, oh, and then I have another sync point that's up in the cloud, and it's like essentially off-site backup for me it just all these things started to click into place so check it out you guys all right so i'm a little upset i'm a little i don't want to i don't want to be all ranty and ravey i hate what i hate when i'm grumpy and i know you guys do too so let's just jump in real quick we're just going to do our Valve update.

So Alienware got on my S list today. They had a little E3 announcement. Guess what? Ladies and gentlemen, Alienware will be shipping their first Steam machine in December, despite the fact that Valve has supposedly delayed them because they're taking a little shortcut. Alienware's first Steam

machine will be shipping with Windows. Of course it will will It's Dell Junior I mean what do you expect They did it again Matt They did it again They switched to Windows They're shipping what they're calling the alpha version of the Steam machine Running Windows

And the Alienware developers Have and this is a quote Scripted up a new UI That makes the Windows interface more usable From 10 feet away And will make it easy to launch Steam Big Picture Mode There you go. Well, you know, it's Alienware. I mean, nothing they do really surprises me, especially once Dell kind of took them under their wing.

They really went a totally different direction at that point. It's really disappointing. And I mean, like, not only is it... It's negative in the freedom dimension. That's a given, but also, like, I can, in a way, understand, like, maybe, like, they were working hand-in-hand with Valve,

and Valve's like, yeah, Alienware, we're gonna do this, you'll be our partner, and then all of a sudden Valve's like, actually, you know what, just kidding, we're gonna bump it to 2015. That's, I mean, that happened, right, Valve? So we're gonna bump Steam Machines, and maybe Alienware was like, actually, you know what? Just kidding. We're going to bump it to 2015. I mean, that happened, right, Valve? So we're going to bump Steam Machines. And maybe anyone was like, well, that's great, Gabe, but here I am with my wiener out and nothing's happening. And now I'm kind of stuck to deliver. I've got all these R&D guys we've paid for.

We've developed a product. We've got all the shipping and marketing. Oh, and by the way, we've been working on a Windows one just in case your product sucked anyway. So we're just going to go with our plan B. I feel like that's what happened. Well, and it honestly makes me wonder which is really the plan B. Really think about that. If they were able to roll it

out that easily... Well, I think they've been working on this from the beginning. That's kind of what I'm saying. Or maybe they hacked it together. I don't know. Maybe they did hack it together. But to me, it feels like how do you just go, well, yeah, we've had some of our developers hacking together UI for this so we'll

just go with that and you know got big picture mode this is yeah I don't know this is really disappointing and this is this is typical crap and I don't know I just I'm a little worried I don't like this is not a good start for the whole steam machine thing this is not this is not how I wanted it to begin well it

just sounds like Dell half-assing things all over again. Yeah, I was going to say, that's all they've ever done. But now the headline is Alienware refits Steam Machine with Windows. You're seeing that at VentureBeat. It's on Engadget.

It's everywhere now. That's the headline. That's the headline now. And it sets the tone. And so that's going to challenge Valve to have to step up their game when they are ready to release and absolutely just really blow people away.

And that means getting in the headlines quick and early to recover from this. If they're scripting a new UI or whatever, why are they doing that on Windows when that would be easier to do on a Linux system? Yeah, I think – Because Dell. I think Valve blew it. I think Valve blew it by engaging with other companies. Valve should have just nutted up and just shipped a machine themselves and not shipped it until it was ready. And it should have been the Steam machine from Valve and not worked with guys like the Cube guys that blew it back at CES last year and these guys that are blowing it now.

This is not the first partner that's blowing it. And this is a big deal. If they blowing it. And this is a big deal. If they screw this up, this is a big deal. Well, I think these guys just don't care what operating systems they're shipping with. They care whether they can supply the games that people want to the people who will buy Steam boxes. And the truth is that if you are going to ship

a Steam box today, you have to have more AAA titles. I agree. And Linux just doesn't deliver there. So they either have to wait, and possibly another company could sweep in and ship with Windows, and everything that Valve supplies with SteamOS is actually available for Windows already. Probably no one

will stop you if you want to ship a set of box with that boot straight to Steam Big Picture. A Steam box running Windows is a failed product on launch. You know why? Because we already have those. Those already exist and they haven't gone anywhere. It needs to be a

differentiator. The Steam box applies to somebody who wants to have a more appliance console-like experience. They don't really even mess with their PC very much. Maybe they have like a laptop. They don't even game on the PC. That's who I see a Steam box running Linux appealing to is somebody who wants a different solution because we already – we've had big picture for over two years now. I don't know, a year at least. Yeah. And it's gone nowhere, right?

And we already have that, and so now Alienware is going to bundle up and package something with a too expensive price point because they are charging more for this because of the Windows license. They said it in the press release. They're going to ship something that's more expensive that will play mediocre game graphics based on the specs of this thing. And what? It has the Steam box name. It's a stinker all around.

I think it has to do with support. No, it doesn't. I had an Alienware that they sold with Ubuntu on it, and then I had an issue with the CD drive. When I called in the tech support, when they found out I was using Ubuntu, the first thing they said is we don't support Linux. And I ended up getting it escalated, and it was a hardware problem because of the case design, but their first response is, we don't support Linux. Even though they sold it with Ubuntu on it. So, go ahead, Rod.

I could be wrong, but doesn't Valve have a rule, like guidelines that you have to agree to in order to call it a Steam machine or a Steam box? I don't know. I know that the press is calling it a Steam machine. That's what I was saying is they need to draw the line and saying if you're going to call this a Steam box,

you need to make sure it runs Linux and not Windows. Well, you know, if you look at the headline, it says Steam machine, but I think that's a very, it doesn't matter. What matters is the perception that headline creates. Steam box, Steam machine, it could be, that's interchangeable for the impression it's going to create. And despite how much I dislike companies doing this, can't Steam contact the companies who are putting that headline out there or the media organizations and tell them that's not what this is?

Please remove that. You're talking about our product, the Steam machine. That's not that. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I can answer that question. Ubuntu. You're talking about our product, the Steam Machine. That's not that. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I mean, maybe if it's – I mean, Canonical does that. I can answer that question.

We're talking about Ubuntu, so. Go ahead, Matt. Well, I can answer that question. I receive those all the time, and usually after I'm done laughing at them and sending them to my inbox. Yeah, the point is that send me a cease and desist. Until it's legal, they can bite me. That's the philosophy of most editors. Unless there's a real compelling legal concern from the legal department, no one cares.

It's an interpretive statement. So the title being the Steam Machine. Well, it's running Steam and it is a machine. That can be interpreted. They can then fight it out in court or they can accept the fact that there really isn't much to it. Right. And the thing, too, is like Valve is not going to want the bad PR. But I want also – the thing is, the way

Alienware is positioning this is they're even calling it Alpha. This is Rev. 1. We're shipping our first version with Windows and then later, potentially, maybe, possibly, kinda, we might put Linux on them in future versions that we won't be calling Alpha anymore.

We just want to see if the concept works, even though it won't be anything like the final product. We want to see if the concept works. Even though it won't be anything like the final product, we want to see if the concept works. And so that's why they're calling it a Steam machine, because eventually maybe it kind of could possibly run SteamOS. You got to wonder, does anyone else here smell Microsoft stink on this? Because they do have a real tight relationship.

This is what I've been saying. Microsoft and Dell are known to be very simpatico together. I don't think this is a Microsoft thing at all. I don't think this is a Microsoft thing at all. What's that? I would agree with Heavens. This is not a Microsoft thing at all. It's just better.

Currently, if you are going to ship, like I said before, if you are going to ship a Steam box, it's easier to do it with Windows because of the library to games. You will appeal to wider audience. I think people who do it with Windows because of bigger library to games. You'll appeal to wider games. I think people who do it don't care absolutely at

all about what operating systems they're shipping with and we care too much The truth is probably somewhere in the middle. We care too much about Linux to have a clear perspective on this.

VR Mac, you want to give us a dose of reality? Go ahead. I think the thing that this all boils down to is the fact that Dell's a business and regardless of if they have any sort of alliance with Microsoft or whatever conspiracy you may think, they're a business and all they really care about is making money and they see this

as an opportunity to get a profit. This is a really good opportunity for them, too, because as we know of, X for PlayStation 4 and Xbox One, guess what they're using? x86 chips. Yeah, I just... This is the future of gaming consoles.

Yeah, but Dell isn't very good at making money in the consumer space anymore. I mean, they're kind of laughed at these days. Or converging. This is now become the ultimate Dell product, where they half-ass it, they start ambitious, and then they cut it and cut it down. This isn't going to

be a successful product. This is already a product that nobody wants. I mean, it's like, okay, fine, they want to go with Windows, great. Give me specs that I actually give a rat's butt about. Then I might at least acknowledge that they're actually trying, but they're not. The problem is, when it runs Windows, you fundamentally have a complicated

Windows PC that you have to manage. That's why Windows, the old traditional Windows mobile, failed. It was too complicated for that type of device. You have to have a device that is dumb, stupid. I just want to effing play some video games. Simple. I press a stupid little alien glowing button, and it boots up this shiny Valve OS, and it boots right into this big picture mode, and that's all it is.

It's nothing else. It's not Windows that's been scripted to have a 10-foot interface that you can launch big picture. People don't want that. It's going to be a failed product. When they plug in their controller, they're going to have to install some drivers. Yeah, it ships with the Xbox 360 wireless controller too.

That's what they're going with. Anyways. It doesn't stink with Microsoft at all. Not even a little bit. I know some things about Dell and Microsoft that most people probably don't, and I'm saying yes, it does stink at Microsoft. Of course, you know what? I'm a commenter on the chat room. You never know. Maybe it will be successful, and the

Steam Machine name gets a good name. Yeah, right. I don't think so. Yeah. How about some uh how about some some good linux gaming news right so let's talk about linux taking over the gaming universe again uh i didn't really see this one coming today at least uh uh civilization 5 the strategy game is now native on linux it's an aspire port but it's a native aspire port uh the steam os uh release includes all Civilization V DLC too.

And the expansion pack, including Gods and Kings and Brave New World. This is over on GamingOnLinux.com, and it was posted by Liam, who joined us a couple weeks ago on the show. Pretty big release for Linux. This is one of the benchmark games, and it's out there right now. You can go get it and download it. I actually think I bought it like a while ago when it was on crazy sale.

Sometimes I hedge my bets. And so there you go. That's a big game coming to Linux. And so that's some good news. And I also wanted to share a little love with the Krita project. Krita, am I saying that? Krita?

Yeah, Krita. The QT-based digital painting software is doing a Kickstarter to sort of supercharge development. And the main reason I wanted to give them a mention is because this is one of the most badass apps we have on desktop Linux. And I'm very hopeful that crowdfunding can be a way for the open source community

to fund these really standout applications. And when you have a desktop Linux application that not only has a good history, but it has an ambitious target and has been delivering on a consistent basis, I'm all about that. So I wanted to give them a plug. You can find a link to their Kickstarter project

or you can just go to kickstarter.com and search for the Corita project. It's from the Corita Foundation. They're trying to get to 15,000 and they're at 2,148 right now, 73 backers with 29 days to go. And they got all their goals outlined out there and stuff like that.

So good luck to them. It's a really, really good app. It's one of these apps that I kind of wish we had spent more time with on the Linux Action Show demoing. But I'm just so not skilled at this kind of stuff that it would be embarrassing. But if I was, I would be showing this kind of stuff off. So just give a mention for one of our great desktop Linux apps that's out there.

This is one of the applications that any desktop environment, proprietary or not, would be proud to have. Definitely. So there you go. Good work, guys, and good luck on the fundraiser. They've got a video, too, that you can go catch with some catchy, like, you know, Kickstarter-y music, and they got some

green screen action going. It's nice. Look at this green screen action they got going. Good work, guys. One of my favorite Kickstarter videos is that you always want

to, like, curl up with a cup of tea as you watch them. You know, the whole Kickstarter video thing, you know it's like an industry now. There's, like, people

where their full-time business is recording Kickstarter videos and Indiegogo videos and stuff like that. the whole that's like their whole thing man that's what they do for a living that's crazy i mean if only we knew more people had that kind of equipment and should have thought of that i should have thought of that dang it all right well you guys can find links to all that stuff in the show notes also just a shout out uh two new shows over on jupiter broadcasting How to Linux launched, and episode one is out. And Tech Talk Today is daily Monday through Thursday. Episode six is out today. We talked about Netflix and Verizon round two. It's a pretty interesting spat that

is directly related to all of the net neutrality stuff going on right now and has the potential to bust that stuff open. So we've been covering that on Tech Talk today. We've also covered the best from E3 that's happened so far. And you guys probably heard about that Turing test that was supposedly beaten, but not so much. We bust that in today's episode of Tech Talk today. And you can join us every day, Monday through Thursday at jblive.tv, 9 a.m. Pacific, noon Eastern. And, you know, also we have the. Pacific, noon Eastern. Also, we have the Mumble Room involved, too. If you don't get a chance to join us for Linux

Unplugged, we take calls and your opinion from the Mumble Room and Tech Talk today. Tomorrow, we'll be rounding up not just the tech headlines, but we'll also be covering some of the stuff that happened in E3. It's E3 going on right now, Matt. Did you know? I've heard this. The rumors are true, Matt. It is true. It is going on right now, Matt. Did you know? I've heard this. Yeah, well, the rumors are true, Matt.

It is true. It is going on right now. So anyways, we'll end it right there. So head over to linuxactionshow.reddit.com to get involved. You can help massage the content, if you will, you know, to cup the content and give it a nice gentle boost over at linuxactionshow.reddit.com. It's also a good way to give us your feedback. I've noticed

and we'll see if anybody's still listening because I've noticed that the Linux Unplugged show gets very little love these days in the subreddit. And I understand. It's because you guys are jerks and you don't like us and you hate us. That's right. That's fine. We don't mind, right, Matt? I mean, as long as I'm getting abuse. I mean, attention, not abuse. What am I saying?

I don't want to be abused. Not at all. Just give us a little love, guys. Come on. And the value of this is negative. Let's go along. I kid. I kid. You can also go to jupiterbroadcasting.com, hit the contact link, and send in some email to the Linux Unplugged show.

And join us live on Tuesdays, 2 p.m. Pacific, or go to jupiterbroadcasting.com slash calendar to get that converted by robots in your local time. JBLive.tv is where the live happens, where you can hang out with us in the mumble room or in the chat room and help name our show. Hey, Matt, I'll see you on Sunday, okay? All right, see you then. All right, have a great week, and have a great week, everyone. Thanks so much for tuning in to this week's episode of Linux Unplugged.

See you right back here next Tuesday. See you. you