LINUX Unplugged - Episode 80: ARMed with Arch | LUP 80

Episode Date: February 18, 2015

One of the core developers of Arch Linux ARM joins us to chat about this rapidly developing platform, how Arch is used in ARM deployments & their relationship with the main Arch project.Plus an update on Ubuntu Phone & the first fully sandboxed portable Linux desktop app is demoed this week. How is it different than what we’ve seen before? And how far away might it be? We debate.

Speaking of breaking, how about a little breaking news? This is CNN Breaking News. Coming in from the beard himself, GetGamesGo.com, never even heard of it, but I guess they're known. GetGamesGo.com is having a 75% off Linux game sale. And some of them are just Steam codes, some of them are direct downloads,

some of them are DRM free, some of them aren't. Anyways, I'll have a link in the pre-show. I don't know how long it's going on. They take Visa, MasterCard, and PayPal. And it's GetGamesGo.com and 75% off. Linux game sale. I mentioned it. Check it out.

See? See what I do for you? Now you can go get some gaming going for your 75% off. No? No? That didn't work for you? All right. Okay.

I'm just scrolling through the list. All right. How about this one? All right. This is CNN's Wolf Blitzer, and you're in the Situation Room. American TV. Hello, guys. I'm here reporting on CNN at getgamesgo.com,

where I can report there is indeed some sort of catastrophe going on. I believe it is a cyber attack, a glitch in the computer. All Linux games are 75% off. Situation. Situation. That's right, Wolf. This is quite the situation. We recommend you go over to getgamesgo.com.

I've never heard of them before, but holy crap, 75% off. Hackers be crazy. What? Did you be crazy! What? Did you like that one better? Actually, it's gotten me kind of interested to go to that website now. So, I saw Wimpy posted, or someone posted some screenshots of Mate on PPC. Yeah, that's pretty popular, isn't it? Wimpy, what's going on there?

What the hell? What did I do? Oh, pc yeah yeah yeah this is not something that i've had a huge amount of involvement in this is um community developments so a couple of people in the ubuntu mate community have ported ubuntu mate to power. And this whole underculture of people that are sitting on PowerPC equipment have suddenly turned up and we've reinvigorated these computers that previously were struggling

for a decent operating system. So there's these guys turning up with PowerPC G4s, PowerPC G5s, and Amiga X1000s, and all sorts of funky stuff. People are just hanging on to these old Macs, and then they're just putting Linux on it. Well, not just old Macs, but other equipment that's based on PowerPC. Like anything, we all gravitate to something that you know at some point we really love i still have a real soft spot for the ibm thinkpad 760 which came out in about 1998 and it's an old piece of cruft now but it was the first really

decent computer i had yeah so i i think of it fondly and i imagine these guys that have got these power pc equipment they know it and they're able to make it work for them and some of those g5 um yeah rigs that they've got are really quite pokey and we're very expensive though some of those g5 rigs they bought you know they might have spent eight grand on some of those high-end production rigs yeah and and you know these guys that have got eight core systems with eight gigs of ram so back then this would have been you know a significant investment and um yeah they've got um ubuntu mate running on it with uh qmu running and they're doing you know multiple ubuntu mate sessions running within there they've got all the 3d gaming going uh the whole the whole nine yards So what I'm working on at the moment, so I've actually bought an iBook G4 off eBay secondhand.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. To help with the PowerPC testing. And last week or the week before, did the PowerPC enablement in the official canonical build infrastructure for Ubuntu Mate. Wow. So I don't know if we're gonna get over the finish line but we've started to put all the bits in places to introduce it as an official official architecture that though wow i mean when you go down that route

that is big that's so that's a new arm of the distro and wow although you know i think about it um there is an old g4 tower that is kicking around here somewhere that just does nothing because it's worthless. If I could throw Linux on it. ISOs available. ISOs are available. You could say that it's Wimpressive. Oh, don't. This is what all my school teachers used to put on my school reports

thinking that they were being clever and original. What was it? What was it? Hey, Ron, did you hear that? Wimpy basically called you a dick then. Yeah, yeah, he totally did. He totally did. I'll see myself out.

It's okay. Welcome to Linux Unplugged, your weekly Linux talk show that's getting ready to flip some old power PC equipment on the side to fund its rv ambitions my name is chris and my name is matt one of these days matt i will be broadcasting this very show from the road i can't i can't even i can't even say it's gonna happen before episode 100 matt one day one day chris will be in the jupiter broadcasting mobile studio broadcasting the unplugged show and we'll have like a real plug meetup with real in-person microphones. This week, we're going to have a great show. A project that you may or may

not be familiar with, and maybe not familiar with as well as they should be, is the Arch Linux ARM project. Now, I don't really know what you would use Arch on an ARM device for, but I have a few ideas. So one of the members is going to join us to give us a little bit of background, tell us what some people out there use Arch and ARM devices for. And we're going to pick his brain, and we're also going to have the Mumble Room ask any questions they might have.

And then in the second half of the show, something we've talked a lot about is delivering applications on Linux, something where you could make an application and move it across distributions, maybe have it secured from the rest of the system, sandbox, so that way if the application has an exploit, it can't really go very far. Well, this week, we saw the first demo of a fully sandboxed application on the Linux

desktop, thanks to advancements in Wayland and a lot of other things that we'll get into. And it was actually a video game, a OpenGL video game that was fully sandboxed, fully portable, and demoed this week on Linux, and we're going to talk about that and how far out it might be. It might be closer than you think. So to get started, Matt, why don't we bring in that mumble room. Time-appropriate greetings, mumble room. Hello.

Hello. Hello from Trinidad. Hi. Hi. Well, hello from Trinidad. So why don't we get started front and center. Let's put Popey right up there on the spot uh i just wanted to pick your brain poppy on any updates uh since we talked the the launch happened the flash sale was very flashy and um i'm just curious if you got any updates for us on how it's gone and maybe we're going to see any future sales yeah we had a flash sale for the ubuntu phone

the first ubuntu phone the bq um last last week on Wednesday, just after the show where we discussed it. And hence all the sales. Yeah, they sold out pretty quick in the morning. And so they ran another sale in the afternoon and they sold out then as well. And I think they sold out in minutes, you know, really stupidly quickly. I don't think they quite anticipated how many people were going to buy them. But there'll be more flash sales. There'll be one this week at some point, BQ have said.

So keep an eye on the Ubuntu Twitter account and the BQ Readers Twitter account for more info. Any early feedback or responses or anything like that? Are you guys just sort of like listening and collecting data right now? What's going on right now at Canonical HQ after the phone finally shifts yeah or i guess it hasn't shipped yet but sales have gone out so i guess they're not right we don't really have them in consumers hands until what a month or so well some are there's 30 of them for the people who came to london and they've been giving us loads of feedback you know some of it we didn't go and ask for they just started posting photos and screenshots and problems that they've had or things they've liked,

and we've been gathering all this information, like stalking them all on their social media accounts to see what they're posting and gather that feedback and give it back to the developers. But also some of them have been filing bugs and giving us log files and stuff when there are problems. So it's been a really useful exercise because they're using it in the real world.

Now, Wimpy, you had a question that those of us maybe with a Nexus 4 or Nexus 5 device want to know about. Yeah. So I've got the Nexus 4, which I've just had for a few days because I wasn't successful in the flash sales last week, and I wanted to learn more. wasn't successful in the flash sales last week and i wanted to learn more so i've noticed there are some differences with what the nexus 4 ships with versus what the bq ships with for example the the scopes implementation on the bq phone seems to be a little bit more tightly integrated and

it's got this today scope and i was wondering if canonical are going to bring that same software enablement to the other devices uh so yeah they should be uh the i mean the idea is that each um manufacturer or carrier or oem can um tailor the experience and add their little layer on the top and some of what you might see in screenshots and videos of the bq phone might be bq specific stuff you know for spain or for um bq's customers or based on deals that bq have with partners and that that kind of stuff we probably wouldn't put on other devices but the generic stuff like the today scope and and nearby and other stuff then that should go into the store and it should be available to anyone it just it just hasn't yet been done i did ask you are you asked me earlier on telegram and i pinged everyone and they said

it's it's currently in process yeah i'm being a bit of a stooge here but you know it was it was topical for me i have to say uh having played with it i get the scopes concept and i'm just disappointed there are not more scopes built in for the core apps so uh because they're really so here's a bit of feedback for you poppy scopes to me are like a cross between widgets on android and google now and i don't know if it's because i live outside north america but google now for me is completely pointless it doesn't actually do anything useful doesn't tell me anything that I want to know so consequently I go to great lengths to disable it on my Android devices and I have to say in just a couple of days of using Ubuntu phone scopes actually deliver the promise of what I thought Google Now was supposed to do which was

to keep me informed about the things that i wanted to know about because i'm i've chosen to follow it or because it's geolocated around me and and it makes me aware of my surroundings i'd like to see more scopes particularly things like the there's a decent text messaging app but there's no scope for it and the killer app on on ubuntu phone as far as i'm concerned is telegram because i've moved all of my immediate friends and family over to it and there's a scope for that and an app for that and it's brilliant but the text messaging app lacks a scope and there's a scope for telegram yeah oh yeah so it shows you your most recent messages and the people you contact the most, that kind of stuff.

But we made a change in the way that apps are packaged so that you can bundle an app and a scope together at the same time. So when a user or a customer installs it, they get both and they share the same data set. And that Telegram is an example of one of those. And I agree with you. We need more of those. Yeah, that's fascinating. I can't wait to play with it on an actual device. And we won't know anything about that until more like June, right?

That's kind of the word. What, for the U.S. market? Yeah, I think Christian Perino teased to OMG Ubuntu a couple of weeks ago that we hope to announce something in June for the U.S. market. So far away, Bobby. Sorry. That's all right. It turns out making phones is hard.

Who knew? Who would have thought, right? Okay, so I wanted to kind of spend a moment to reflect positively upon Linux as a general bit of real-time feedback as an exercise from the chat room and the mump room. And I'll start, as a general bit of real-time feedback, as an exercise from the chat room and the mumper room. And I'll start, and then I'll have maybe Matt chime in with something that he would miss.

So every now and then, you have to spend a little time away from Linux. Less and less these days, but every now and then it happens. Maybe let's just say for the sake of argument, you're on the Windows platform. So that way we can all just kind of focus on one thing. What is it you miss the most from Linux? I was inspired by a thread I saw a day ago on RLinux and it's a lot of great responses. And I would like to be curious about your response. So I'll tell you mine. Just as like one of the first things I notice when I sit down at a Windows box that I miss when I'm sitting down at a Linux desktop is that you have to click to focus and then scroll in order to get scroll to work.

Like you can't just bring your mouse over any random window and scroll it under Windows. It has to be a focused window in order for the scroll to work. It turns out I use that all the time with multiple windows and stuff. I always am scrolling Windows without wanting to actually click them. Like maybe I have my web browser up and I'm also looking through a directory, but I want my web browser to be the active window, but I still want to be able to scroll the list of the file directory. You can't do that in Windows. You've got to click the Explorer window and then scroll

it. That is just one of the first things. There's a million things but in terms of things that bug me when I move away from Linux, that's one of the first. Matt, do you have one that comes to mind? I think the most annoying thing to me personally would definitely have to be the fact that I can't just do a couple button clicks and get the launcher that I want.

Or even just the menu layout in general is just obnoxious. I mean, that's been the big stuff that I've noticed. Yeah, were you thinking, Popey, what, like KitKat? Because there's like a program. No, I mean, years ago I used to do Focus Follows Mouse or Sloppy Focus or whatever you call it. On Windows 2000, there was a tweak for it. Focus Follows Mouse or Sloppy Focus or whatever you call it, on Windows 2000, there was a tweak for it from... Focus Follows Mouse, though, is... I don't know.

Yeah, I don't know. I thought that's basically what you... You can either have it raise the window or not, and if you have it not raise the window, put your mouse over it and scroll. I mean, yeah, it's not built in. It's not easy, and it didn't work all the time. What about...

I love that. When you're not on the Linux desktop, what are you missing the most? Opening a terminal with Ctrl-T. Yeah. Because I just find myself doing that all the time. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, Wimpy, you too?

Terminal? Yeah, yeah. The terminal is the best hotkey utility ever created. So fire up a terminal, and then you can just ping off and manipulate everything on the system from a few keystrokes, and it's deeply frustrating to not have that on Windows.

Yeah, one of the nice things about it, basically every Linux desktop now, is there's a built-in launcher of some kind, and some of them are better than others, and then it's nothing like that. You have the start menu, but it's not quite the same thing. Eric, do you have any that jump out at you for things you miss when you step away from Linux?

Yeah, well, you mentioned the terminal thing. I also was thinking about you know, in terms of the terminal, I was just thinking it's nice to have that F12 for like Yakquake or Guake for the terminals to just pop down. So like if I nice to have that F12 for, like, Yakquake or Guake for the terminals to pop down. So, like,

if I need to get to the command line, I have to type windows R to open that up. So it's just... It gets really aggravating, but also, being able to tile my windows where I want them, Windows arrow snap only does the left or the right halves.

It won't do it in quadrants at all. And I like that. You know, the big one, I'm surprised nobody's mentioned, the obvious one, package management. Oh, duh. Right? How did I not mention? Oh, my God. I feel ashamed now.

And then, of course, another big one is the virtual desktops. The Windows is getting those things as well. I mean, 10 is addressing a lot of these things, isn't it? I believe also the scroll wheel thing is fixed in 10. It does, but it doesn't really properly address package management. You still miss a proper launcher, though. Surprisingly, the thing I miss in Windows is Pulse Audio. Really?

Yeah, right? Really, really, really. It's the fact that I can send it over to the network instead of it just being on one machine. Easily as well. So, and how easily and how often do you actually take advantage of that feature? Not often, but it's a neat feature.

Yeah. Even along those lines, being able to quickly change your input route, put device when it comes to audio. You can't do that very easily in Windows. You can't. You have to go to the control panel and mess with a few things, input or output device when it comes to audio. You can't do that very easily in Windows. You can't. You have to go to the control panel and mess with a few things,

and you can't do simultaneous outputs or simultaneous inputs or anything like that. You have to choose one and stick with it. Very interesting, gentlemen. All right, so moving on, I'll link to the main thread in RLinux. They had a whole bunch of good ones in there. Package management was the one that jumped out at me, and then, of course, millions of other things. Nobody said wobbly windows, unfortunately.

I'm sure... Oh, oh. There it is. In that case, the cube. Yeah, desktop cube. Okay, very good. Yeah, burning your windows when you close them, that kind of stuff. That was cool. Yeah, that still...

Not was, Matt. Not was. Is cool in my world, Matt. Is cool. Hey, you know what else is cool? Our first sponsor this week, that's Linux Academy. Head over to linuxacademy.com and get our special 33% discount. Linux Academy is a great resource to go train yourself up on something.

They have step-by-step video courses with everything you're going to learn, downloadable comprehensive study guides. A lot of the materials you can just download and pop in your MP3 player and listen in the shower or listen on the road. As a podcast, it's great supplemental learning material they have learning plans you can set your availability they have seven plus distros you get to choose from and all of the courseware will adjust to those distributions and they have some really good stuff because the thing is is the guys behind linux academy are really passionate about the source material they don't run courses

on photoshop they don't run courses on autocad they focus in on this material because this is their world. Linux enthusiasts, educators, and developers came together to create Linux Academy. And it's successful because of that. Because once you get in there, once you start using their dashboard and see how easily it is to wrap your head around what you're going to have to do, how each section is broken out,

how they have all of the courseware, how everything's kept up to date. If there's changes in Docker, they make those changes in their courseware. They have live streams where you can ask the educator questions, and those educators are currently up to date. They're deploying this stuff. And you get to deploy this stuff, too, because they have scenario-based labs. So if you're going to go do an NGINX implementation with, like, an Amazon S3 backend storage, they're going to have a scenario that actually has you use those utilities, including provisioning that storage and setting that up

and getting all of that to work with every application you're going to be using to do that storage and talk to S3. You actually get to work with this stuff, so you have a real idea of how to use it when you're out in the real world and you're ready to go get trained. And they have a good community, too, that constantly helps lift you up if you slow down a little bit. And really, I think one of the other things that I've liked a lot about is I can go in there and kind of jump around and see what's new and interesting to me

because I honestly really haven't had a chance to play with some of the stuff as I've got out of consulting a little while ago, and it's great. Like when I'm ready to jump into a new language like Ruby or Python, they have courseware on that, including a whole set of courseware on AWS.

I mean, they've really got some great stuff. And they're adding stuff like new live labs two to three times a week right now. And they also have accounts for groups. So if you have a business and you want to have a group of you on there, that's a great way to work together. They've got Python, OpenStack, Android,

Linux courseware, Red Hat specific stuff, which is always extremely valuable. PHP, Android, it's really good. DevOps, Ruby. I mean, the list goes on and on. I just go over there from time to time and just check out some of their new stuff because they're always adding stuff and they're really good about updating the community in the news section when you log in. Just go try out the dashboard.

So go to linuxacademy.com slash unplugged and go poke around. It's a great opportunity to take it up to the next notch. They've got lots of great resources for you to try it out. And I want to do a little PSA. So this weekend is scale. And I don't know how many folks, let's see, anybody in the Mumba room going to be at scale this weekend? It's going to be February 19th to the 22nd.

Nobody. One of my coworkers is. Okay, very good. Well, Noah will be there. He'll be there this weekend, and he'll be there Sunday live during the Linux Action Show. So you can hunt him down. So Scale is the 13th. This is going to be the 13th annual Southern California Linux Expo.

It's going to be at the Hilton Los Angeles Airport. And you can bump into Noah and say hi to him. And he'll be tweeting from his Twitter account, at Colonel Linux, where he's currently ranting about how much he hates PayPal. Right there. Oh, yeah. You know what I'm going to do? I'm going to give that a favorite. I'm going to give that a favorite right there.

I think I might as well. I've been on that side of it. Oh, me too. Oh, you've done something odd. We're just going to go and hold on to your stuff forever. Yeah. So he'll be tweeting if you want to meet up with him. And then during the Linux Action Show, he's going to try to do it live from the floor.

And if you can get a hardwired connection, hey, if anybody from scale is listening and you want to hook Noah up with a hardwired connection, we here would really appreciate that because he wants to give you free coverage live from the floor. And he's also going to be there conducting interviews. So if you are there and want to hook up with Noah, you can email him, Noah at JupiterBroadcasting.com and talk with him. And he'll probably get you on camera. And then so here's – this is a good time for me to mention this. So this – because we're doing this, scale is landing during the beardpocalypse.

I don't know if you guys know about this, but we are currently – starting Friday, Jupiter Broadcasting goes nearly dark. There's a beardpocalypse. I don't know if you guys know about this, but we are currently starting Friday. Jupiter Broadcasting goes nearly dark. There's a beardpocalypse. We're running on a reduced staff. Reduced staff next week. I feel like we need an evil bumper set for this. I do have a few things. I could try out a few things and Matt won't be able to hear them, but Eric,

here, you tell me if you think is that appropriate? No? Okay, how about this one? Next week is Jupiter Broadcasting's Beardpocalypse! There we go. Perfect. Yeah, all right. It's the Beardpocalypse next week.

And so there's going to be a reduced show load next week. You'll hear more about that soon. And one of the things we're doing is Linux Action Show on Sunday's release is going to be a retro-blasted action of the Linux Action Show on Sunday's release is going to be a retro blasted action of the Linux Action Show where we've gone back through your best of submissions, dusted off the ones that didn't suck, and then we kind of gave them a massage and then put them

in a righteous position of hindsight and then allowed you to re-watch them. You're welcome. And I show up from time to time with random anecdotes and tell you about people I love. So that'll be on Sunday's Linux Action Show that'll get released into the feeds. We will be live, though, on Sunday, doing scale coverage.

We just will not be releasing it that Sunday. It'll be the following Sunday where we do a scale extravaganza and we put all of Noah's on-location live coverage and pre-recorded interviews in one episode. We make it the master scale episode, and that'll be it. So if you followed all of that, good job. If you didn't follow all of that,

screw you, I'm sorry, there's nothing I can do about it. It's complicated. Welcome to the world of production. And then let's talk about something that's really going to rock, and I don't even need to ask the Mumble Room, because I know every single one of those Moes in the Mumble Room is going to be at LinuxFest Northwest in Bellingham, Washington April 25th through the 26th.

We're going to try to get as much of the Jupyter Broadcasting crew out there and have as big of a party as possible. If you want to party with us, you better show up early because I think we're going to be partying Friday night and then Saturday and Sunday we'll do a live Linux action show on Sunday. Saturday, I plan to kind of get up and go around and maybe not sit at the booth the whole day this time.

I don't know. Yeah. We're going to try to get extra space, Matt, so we can have a good spot for HowToLinux and Women's Tech Radio. We'll be doing some interviews for some shows at LinuxFest Northwest. That's going to be a big show to go to. Most of the

Jupyter Broadcasting crew is going to be at that one. If you want to say hi to people, we'll have swag there, of course, and all that kind of stuff. We'll have stuff to give away. It's going to be a good show. You can book it now if you want. It's April 25th and the 26th, Ballynam, Washington. It's going to be a pretty good party. And no food illness. This will be

the second year in a row. I'm going to make sure it's going to happen. I'm going to wear... I'll be the guy in the really weird mask. I still remember that one year like it was yesterday. Oh my God, yeah. Alright, I just had a quick question while we have everybody assembled. It came in

from the subreddit from RDP5008. Hey guys, I finally decided to try Guake, and I'm loving it. Now if you're watching the video version, boom, that's Guake right there. Bam, bam, bam. It just drops right down. It's a terminal that I just hit with my tilde key. Bam, there's Guake. Boom, there it is. And he says, I've been seeing

some alternatives in random posts online. Is Quake the original, or are there other worthy alternatives? Please educate me. I'm running Linux Mint 17 Cinnamon on my laptop, Archwith Gnome on my desktop, and Ubuntu 14.4 Ubuntu on my HTPC, and I want me some drop-down terminals. So, he was curious about drop-down terminal

alternatives, and I realized I'm kind of a Quake bigot, I guess. I've never looked outside of Gwake. Gosh. Unless I'm on KDE. Yeah, right. I think I'm going to fall in the same category. All right, Wimpy.

You know of one, right? I know of two others. Lay it on me, brother. One in particular. Okay. Okay. There's one called Yagwake. Yeah.

It's another Gwake. Right. I've not used that. But there's another. It's a KDE app. So, yeah. All right. There we yeah, I use it all the time. And there's yet another one, simply called Tilda, which has all of the features of Gwake,

but it uses more modern underpinnings for managing configuration and such, and it is significantly lighter on memory resources, and I've integrated that into ubuntu mate 1504 so when you install ubuntu mate 1504 you zap f12 or tilde and you get a drop down terminal all themed and matching the ubuntu mate desktop well now so i would recommend tilde oh okay so tilde yeah i saw that also recommended in the subreddit, so I will give Tilda a go. T-I-L-D-A. And the site on Sourcefort does not seem to be working, but I'm sure it's in everybody's repo. And it's also on, guess what? Surprise, surprise.

There's also an ArchWiki post about it. Everybody's shocked about that? Yeah, shocked and stunned. Yeah, all right. I'll put a link to the GitHub page. Oh, yeah, this looks nice. This looks really nice. I'll put a link to that in the show notes for people that want to grab it.

It only runs in 5 megs of RAM, so I like it for that reason. Whoa. Part of music in the chat room mentions XFCE, drop-down terminal, and queue terminal has a drop-down as well. So there's a couple more. Okay. I mean, Wimpy, do you happen to remember what Quake's memory usage was comparatively? It was several times that.

It was about 30 megs because it's a Python application and it uses the old G-Com for settings and what have you. I'm going to look right now and see if I can find it. Yeah, I'm 28.6 right now. Are you really? 28 megabytes of RAM? Yeah, it bounces between that and 30. Yeah. I'm going to look right now. Yeah, I'm 28.6 right now. Are you really? 28 megabytes of RAM? Yeah, it bounces between that and 30. Yeah. All right.

I'm switching. That tears it. That is crazy. I never even thought to look at that. I pride myself on stripping the stuff down. I'd love to switch. I'm sorry, what was that? You pride yourself on what?

I pride myself on stripping it. I pride myself on running down hard to the metal as I can. So I think I'm going to switch. This looks really cool. Are you still on Mate, Matt? Oh, yeah. Oh, man, I've not looked back. I did. Elementary kind of lulled me over on one of my old laptops that I had.

It barely runs, but I got it going. I was like, oh, that was cool for about 10 minutes, and then I kind of, you know, but all my other computers run Mate. It's just what I do. So before we get on to Arch Linux ARM, right, ARM, ARM, Arch Linux, did anybody want to touch on the elementary OS topic?

I know Rotten Corpse, you mentioned you wanted to bring it up, so I was going to open the floor. I don't want this to turn into, like, a dog pile thing on the project, though, but if there's any follow-up, I'm happy to bring it up, so I was going to open the floor. I don't want this to turn into a dog pile thing on the project, though, but if there's any follow-up, I'm happy to hear it. Well, I don't want to attack him or anything, but there was a part in the interview where Noah asked him, do you know

how much of the money has been sent to Debbie and Ubuntu? Because they were talking about the entire operating system. and the answer is nothing i thought it was like i thought it was like a couple hundred dollars or something no their bounty source actually bounty source is not really that good of an idea because the concept is it's good but it's also broken because they you're you're not paying the project you're

paying the developer who fixes that particular bug. So if someone just comes in and fixes it, that just fixes that one bug and you're paying for that bug. But that doesn't even mean that that bug is a really good fix and that the project will even take the fix. So they don't get the money and they maybe don't even get the fix in the first place. But there has only

been like roughly there's like, okay,k get like 35 bucks don't you feel like this is kind of like saying that the poor people aren't donating to to people more like i mean they're they're they're they're clearly saying they're not making enough money as it is well no they made well they allow themselves to call other people cheers for not contributing well also and it's not that they don't have the money. They spent $1,300 fixing bugs in Pantheon files.

I mean, if they just gave anything at all to Ubuntu or Debian, that'd be fine. It's not about the money anyway. It's the fact that they say that they don't know when they do know, and it's nothing. And also that they are still claiming that, for one, they're claiming that they're asking for money for the entire operating system, which they're not actually putting money into the entire operating system. They're also saying that you're not cheating us. You're cheating open source. So implying that not paying for elementary is somehow cheating the entire open source ecosystem, and that's just absurd. WW, as a user of the OS, you wanted to chime in?

Yeah, you can consider me an ex-user. I'm going to move to Kaboom 2. I've talked to the mumble room throughout the week in depth about this since even before this happened, and I've talked to some devs that have tried to contribute to the project and been spurned away. And I'm just kind of done with what I've seen, how the community has been managed, like Eric has said in the past, and things like that. I'm just going to move on to something else and maybe even think about getting more technical knowledge on Linux to do my own distro eventually or to contribute more to other distros.

So that's actually good. So Daredevil, I mean, he would love to cap this entire thing off, but now some rumor mongering. Go ahead, Daredevil. No. Go ahead. I think this is perfect. I'm just saying, guys, it has been a while.

The problem is mostly the people. Apparently the looks are good. The technicalities could be improved. And the problem is on the people. Apparently the looks are good, the technicalities could be improved, and the problem is on the social aspect. I see a fork coming. Pay attention. We'll see. I think this distribution, what it is, is that

what we're watching is can a distribution be truly just led by ultimate design. And if that is the distribution's purpose and you fork it and you don't have those people, well, I don't know. Okay, what's the point?

But we'll see. I'd be really, I would be skeptical. Well, one possibility, and this is horrible and I hate myself for even mentioning this, but I think one possibility that could happen is someone forks it and essentially waits for elementary to do a UI update. And then they say, oh, that's great.

They take the code, they update it to their fork, and they sit there. Nothing happens. And that happens. That's how I see them overcoming the design thing. It's a horrible thing, but, you know, karma's a beyond. And maybe the fork becomes the upstream, and they start sending packages

and stuff up to them. You never know. It could happen. But the other thing is, just one more thing is that people typically are saying that, why are you getting mad at people wanting for money? And no one's doing that. It's not about the money. If they ask for money, great, feel free.

If they sell it for money and they don't actually give out binaries for free, that's fine. There's a lot of dishers that already do that. I don't care. out binaries for free, that's fine. There's a lot of districts that already do that. I don't care. It's not about that. It's about them telling people that they are doing something wrong when they're actually just doing what they said they could do.

Yeah, and I think that's a messaging thing that they'll work on. And this is what I point to when they say, we don't need community managers. Oh, yes, you do. Oh, yes, you do. It seemed to provoke a – you had an interesting piece over at Datamation. People should go check out boutique distributions. It kind of fits in with this whole thing.

So check out Matt's article over at datamation.com. All right. Well, so we got to – let's talk about Arch and Arm here for a sec. I mean this is – come on. Come on. This is why we're gathered here today. So real quick, I'll mention our next sponsor and then we'll do that. DigitalOcean. Head over to DigitalOcean right now.

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You could write the first Ubuntu phone scope. Oh, my gosh. You should do this, actually. You should go over to DigitalOcean and write a scope for the Ubuntu Touch phone thingy to manage your droplet. That would be so awesome because they got a straightforward API. You can do that. You can manage your systems. You got your DNS management, your snapshots, your one-click installations, all through this crazy great interface, all sitting on top of Linux, powered by KVM, all riding on top of SSD drives, so that way you get that I.O. performance,

then connected to tier one bandwidth. It is an amazing package, and you can try it out two months for free when you use the promo code D01plugged. I love it. We're going to tell you more about our super cool video conferencing system that we built for last that's all fancy HD, great audio quality, high fidelity, all powered by DigitalOcean droplets. We'll tell you more about it in an upcoming episode.

And it's like when I go to deploy some infrastructure on Linux now, this is just where I go. It's so fast, it's so great, the value's there, and it's all under one account, DigitalOcean.com, DO Unplugged when you check out. And a big thank you to DigitalOcean for sponsoring the Linux Unplugged program. All right, so let's bring in Warhead here. Hey, Warhead, welcome to the Linux Unplugged program. All right, so let's bring in Warhead here. Hey, Warhead, welcome to the Linux Unplugged show.

And first of all, start with your first name, because I don't want to just have you on the Internet known as Warhead. And tell us a little bit about yourself. Don't worry, I've already been known around the Internet for about 10 years as Warheads anyways. Okay, good. My actual name is Jason Plum.

Okay. And I'm one of the core developers. Well, Jason, I'm really glad you could make it because this is getting to be a pretty interesting category, and it's one that we want to spend a little more time talking about from time to time on the Unplugged show. And maybe we could start, could you give us a little background on the Arch Linux ARM project, like when it's been around and anything like that that you care to share with us? Yeah, sure. So in 2009, before I was actually involved with the project, a little thing that some of you may have heard of called the Shiva plug came out on the market.

Oh, yeah. And at the time, the only thing you could get was Debian, and a particularly aging version of Debian at the time as well. And then after that, a commercial piece called the Pogo Plug came on the market after that, and you had a very specific set of chains, and everything went out of date rather horribly fast. But at the same time, people went, this box literally is the same thing as the Shiva box, and I can get it for a reasonable price.

What if I can run the full-blown Linux instead of just what they gave me? what if I can run the full-blown Linux instead of just what they gave me? And that's where the original project of OpenPogo came along. That was where you would have our binaries that you would use on that through an originally a mix through IPKs, so it was sort of in the Debian behavior, and then we became Plugbox in early 2010, and that's when we actually became officially a port of Arch to the ARM architecture.

And at the time, we only had ARMv5 support. Now, this isn't necessarily... So could you help me understand the relationship between Arch Linux ARM and Arch Linux? Because it's not officially part of Arch. Is that correct or am I wrong? No, you're very much correct. We are not the same distribution.

If you go to their forums and ask about our stuff, they will point you at us. And if you ask us about NVIDIA, we will point you at them. Either which way, neither one of us knows how to fix those proprietary bits if we aren't familiar with it. It's just kind of how it is. But we actually got our name as it is today in early 2011. And before we did that, we got permission from the Arch Linux team and everybody involved there to use the name Arch Linux appropriately and contacted ARM and got their rights to actually use the ARM name and the logo, obviously unaltered, so we can actually call ourselves and label ourselves Arch Linux ARM. So we are a complete port that is separate from Arch Linux,

but we derive 90% of our package builds directly from the ABS trees, AUR, et cetera. And then anything that we do differently, we put into our GitHub. Okay. So that sounds actually pretty clean and pretty manageable, really, from the standpoint of somebody on my side. And Wimpy, you wanted to kind of mention something from the Arch developer side? the Arch developer side? Yeah, when I was first working on the Marte packages for Arch Linux, I was aware that Alarm take the packages from the ABS tree and cross-compile them and build them into their repository.

So it's still running here. I've got four Alarm boxes running in a cluster here that were doing that initial building work and i built all of my packages on arm to make sure when i released them into the official repository they'd build cleanly and just flow into arch linux arm and i know other developers are mindful of that and do some testing before they release things and there there's good bug reporting coming back the other way from the alarm team into the Arch bug tracker if we release something that doesn't build on ARM. Very good. So Warhead, what would be

so this is when I told a few folks that we were going to be chatting with you on the show today, they said this is the response I got is, oh, why would you run Arch on an ARM device? Like, what's the advantage there? And so, Warhead, what are some typical use cases for Arch on there? Okay, so what's the biggest problem that you see with an Ubuntu install? From somebody who has used Arch and you know that when you install Ubuntu out of the box, what's the biggest difference between an Ubuntu or a Fedora 20, et cetera, and a base Arch install? It's not even necessarily the age.

It's the sheer amount of decisions that have been made for you. Yeah, yeah, of course. Sure, but couldn't you say, I mean, there's ways of paring that down. There's things coming along. Okay. Is it not the rolling nature that is appealing to some people? Is that not part of it? No, the rolling nature and being able to keep up with upstream packages

at the speed at which Arch itself can keep up with those is definitively the advantage of being able to run Arch on an ARM device, especially where you have kernels that are evolving at a weekly pace. We have some of our devices that are actually running RC kernels that get rebuilt every time Linus tags. Yeah, and this area is under rapid development. It is in ridiculously rapid development. And now we're finally getting manufacturers

to listen to us and begin doing the mainline work. Marvell was traditionally a problem in that area and they've been kind enough to listen to us after several years of going, please, please, please, can you try? And they've enlisted the help of the guys over at Free Electrons, and it's where you see a lot of the Marvell tree, the NDEBU architecture stuff coming in from their work. That's fascinating. And so has it been just the size of the community over time has gotten larger?

Has it been the persistence that you think has made them start listening? What has changed that attitude on their part? As more consumers get the devices and, say, somebody gets an older Android tablet that they can now run Linux on. Now, tablets being a really special case because of the nature of the drivers, but the Poco plugs, the NAS devices that you may have floating around the office or have

given to one of your clients in the past, the various other things that are available, I mean, the entire generations of the BeagleBoards, the BeagleBones, of course the Raspberry Pi 1 and 2, the entire Odroid line, everything that Olimex makes, I cannot leave them out. They have created a demand in a market space that didn't exist before.

And previously, you were, as a manufacturer, working almost exclusively with corporate. And you're dealing with things that are going to be put in place and then maintained at their state and then replaced in the near future. Whereas now you're getting a consumer device who, generally speaking, these are people that are technical and they want to go and see, hey, how well can I make this work in a low power environment, be that from a power usage standpoint or a low CPU power, you know, which way do they want to look at that aspect? And they're realizing that to really keep up with the Linux world, they can't sit in or a low CPU power, you know, which way do they want to look at that aspect? And they're realizing that to really keep up with the Linux world,

they can't sit in the dark ages and just plug their ears. And Mum, if anybody has any questions for our guest, tag me, Mum, in the chat room. I guess what I wanted to kind of get out of you is I'm trying to, I'm still trying to place all of this in my world, in context in my world. And so I'm curious from you, Warhead, what is sort of one of your favorite implementations of an ARCH arm-powered, maybe it's a server, maybe it's powering a combat robot. I don't know, but could you give me an example of an implementation where you've been like, that is a great use of that technology? I may set the mumble room off, but I do know of at least three drones that are running us. Hey! There you go.

Personally, I have a Zeiss LNAS 325 under my desk that runs the lighting control inside my house, runs MPD that streams out to my Chromecasts, and is one of my primary sources to feed my Chromecasts through my Plex. That's pretty neat. And RottenCrofts, you had something on ring for noobs? Yeah. Is the Arch Linux package or the structure in the noobs for Raspberry Pi, is that an alarm build? The original images were made by us.

The foundation was not able to keep up. We issued a new image on a monthly basis, and they generally updated the image every three months, and at that point it was a month behind every time. So now we are only available through the NetInstaller type, which uses a download to get the

tar to actually do the install. So that's why we don't make SD card image files anymore because their CDN apparently couldn't update fast enough. But the NOOBS has an install, doesn't it? There is now a

net install NOOBS SD card image, yes. But the here's my NOOBS image that has all the distro bits on it? No. We are no longer a part of that image okay okay very good so warhead if i'm listening at home and i'm thinking okay maybe i want to start playing with this i know i can get a device that's not too much money i could load linux on there uh what's your favorite what are you recommending people grab the raspberry

pi what do you tell people to try if they're going to jump into this i think it really depends on what exactly they want to learn what are they already familiar with when it comes to Linux? Personally, if you want something low power that has all the options that you want to be able to get to, the Odroid C1 is an awesome choice. If you want to learn about how all the components interact and maybe can take some of your knowledge from Arduino and immediately apply it over into running with Linux and having all the GPIO and SPI access that's very direct and has a lot of existing documentation through sites like Adafruit, etc., then the Pi and the Pi 2 are possible options. But if you're looking for sheer capability, the Odroid line currently outclasses everyone on the market except for the Chromebooks.

Ah, yeah, I'm noticing in your forums it seems like a lot of people like the Odroid. A lot of people are using that in there. Well, you get a very performant device, and they come with the capability of using eMMC 5.0, which is a ridiculously fast storage medium. The Raspberry Pi 1 and 2 have the same SD controller that runs at the same speed. And also the Ethernet is much faster on the C1 as well. Yeah, because it's actually attached to a bus designed for Ethernet. Ah, big difference there.

A lot of people talking about the C1 on the ArchLinuxRM.org forum. So it looks like that. Yeah, the Odroid C1 hits the price point of the Raspberry Pi. Even if you take the direct comparison between the Raspberry Pi 2 and the C1 that have been done all over the place on the net at this point, it definitely comes down to exactly what you want to do with it. There are some things in which the Raspberry Pi does win. Unfortunately, most of our users

would prefer the performance and behavior that you get out of the C1. Yeah, that makes sense. And it seems like that would be a good way to go if you want support from the community, too. Right. And again, it's all which way you want to go, but yeah. Warhead, thank you for the fascinating insights. I'm just kind of getting

my head wrapped around all of this, and I appreciate any kind of info. Is there anything you want to touch on before we run? Yeah, just remember that it's not ArchArm. It's not ArmArch. It is ArchLinuxArm. If you want to abbreviate, it's Alarm. Alarm. ArchLinuxArm or Alarm. I like it. And I'll put a link to the

board you were talking about up on your site there. Well, check in with us from time to time and keep us up to date on cool developments and stuff. Well, the appropriate people know how to reach me. Very good. Well, check in with us from time to time and keep us up to date on cool developments and stuff. Well, the appropriate people know how to reach me. Very good. Well, and one of these days I'm actually going to get around to setting up a Raspberry Pi in here because I have one from the same person who got in touch with you. It's a little birdie.

Yeah, I think you have a U3 floating around somewhere too. Yeah, maybe so, maybe so. Oh, I guess, and mandatory, I should ask you, where do you want folks to go to find out more about the project? Oh, that's very simple, archlinuxarm.org. There you go, archlinuxarm.org, and we will have a link in the show notes. I might also put a link to Jason's blog in there and the team link on the wiki as well. All right, well, Warhead, you, sir, are more than welcome to stick around.

We're going to shoot the breeze on the first actual sandbox Linux application that seems to be portable. But first, I'm going to tell you about my cell phone provider, and that's Ting. Go to linux.ting.com right now, won't you, and support this show. You also get a $25 discount off your first Ting device or a $25 credit. Ting is mobile that really does make sense. No more contracts, no more determination fees, $6 a month, and then you just pay for your usage.

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going to have that super dialed in. linux.ting.com supports this show and gets you a discount off your first device. Thanks to Ting for sponsoring the Linux Unplugged show, and thanks to you guys for supporting our sponsor. So the first fully sandboxed Linux desktop app was showed off this week. It's pretty exciting. It has a few requirements.

No X11. Right there. Totally impossible if you have X11. Cannot do it. It cannot be secured enough. Got to have Wayland. And they also have to have KDBus, which means you gotta have a super modern kernel

and totally up-to-date systemd to allow desktop integration to fully be filtered down to the kernel level. So recently, using the big strides made in Wayland, loaded on Fedora 21, we can start to see some true genuine sandboxing. And this is over on Alexander

Larson's blog. He's a developer. And right here, he's going to start on a Fedora workstation, a build of Neverball, running inside an absolute minimal sandbox. It is absolutely independent of the host distribution, has no access to any system or user files other than the ones from the

runtime and the application itself, has no access to hardware devices other than DRI for GL render, because that's what's been allowed, no network access, can only get input via Wayland, can only show graphics via Wayland, can only do audio out via Pulse Audio, and of course all the other benefits of sandboxing,

like can't touch other stuff on the file system. And as you would expect, as he starts it up, he builds the container right here, so he's just done all of that, and now he's about to fire it up, and he runs it from the GNOME launcher, and from the GNOME launcher, it starts up in a sandbox environment, and now he's playing Neverball in a sandbox. That is so wild.

And in theory, he could pick this up and move it to another distribution if they had all of the same things like Wayland, KDBus, SystemD, and all of that. It is so crazy, John, to think back to when we had the whole monkey suit bet and all that and where all things are evolving to now with Wayland and everything and what Wayland's making possible. Well, that's what I found really striking about the entire thing is that this is possible, like, almost before all of this technology is laid down. It's like, here, we're going to do KDBus. Obviously, you couldn't ship this today, but it's getting close.

Popey, go ahead. What did we get wrong? Something on the details? What's the matter? No, no. I'm confused as to how this is the first, given the Unity Next desktop ISO that's been around for months has had siloed applications like this already. So I'm confused how this is the first. This is the first one of the kind of version that we've been talking about for several episodes,

like this whole start with the GNOME application go all the way down to the kernel sandboxing. Right, which we have on Ubuntu, which is why I'm confused why this is the first fully sandboxed Linux desktop app. No, no, I guess I didn't mean to make it sound like it's the only one. I mean, this is what we've been talking

about for a few weeks. It's going to be coming. Right. So it's the first one using this implementation. Yes. Yeah, using Wayland under context, using Fedora and all those things. And using KDBus. It's nice that they chose that game, actually. I'm sure Ubuntu's is very nice, Yeah, using Wayland under context, using Fedora and all those things. And using KDBus. All that. But I'm sure – It's nice that they chose that game, actually.

I'm sure Ubuntu's is very nice, Popey. I'm sure lots of people use it. How does it – now, is the sandboxing under – is it Ubuntu? Is it legitimate sandboxing or is it AppArmor-enforced profiles? It's AppArmor. So it's not really sandboxing. Why not? If you go through the steps that he's got there, no access

to system files, check. No access to hardware devices, check. No network access, check. How it's actually done, though, like, the way, so AppArmor is things happen, it's checked against a set of rules and then denied, whereas in sandboxing those things just don't even exist for the application. I mean, it's not really, I mean, at the end of the day it's kind of the same thing but

fundamentally like the application under app armor can be aware that there is a device out there it just is denied access to that device whereas a sandbox application would be completely unaware that there's even a hardware device to begin with i think you're splitting hairs but i suppose yeah i mean i i app army i mean if you wanted if but if you wanted to if you wanted to say that you could say susa had sandboxing 10 years ago when they first shipped at uh open open susa or when they first shipped a susa enterprise with with app arm i mean that's not it's interpretation of a definition i at the end of the day i'm kind of leaning with where chris is at and that i mean one one's missing these things and another one's comparing them

based on rules that seems like a fairly distinct thing. How we label them, we could label one, you know, Pepsi Challenge 1 and then Pepsi Challenge 2. Just kind of put that out there. I'll tell you the difference. The reason why I'm talking about this one is because this is the first one where you could see this. This is something you could pick it up and move it between distros.

Right, you don't have to have AppArmor profiles. It's not Ubuntu specific. This would move. You could pick this up and have the same stack on an Archbox And run Neverball on the Arch desktop And that's kind of the big piece Interesting, right So I don't know, now the question is

How do you deliver that? Yeah, yeah And it's all up in the air, who knows It's dependent on a lot of technologies as well Which need to be there Not as widespread yet. Very nascent technologies right now, yeah. So I think it's interesting to watch, but I think, like you're saying, it's not going to be – probably not even this year maybe because you figure there's no way you're going to get out in the next couple of distro release cycles.

No way. So if you think of it in terms of distro release cycles, it's a ways out. It's not coming. If you think of it in terms of distro release cycles, it's a ways out. It's not coming. Well, and this particular implementation is, as you put, it's a ways out. Where Ubuntu's implementation and their vision of doing essentially their vision of it is available to everyone now. So, I mean, there's some benefits there, too.

You could go AppArmor up your Ubuntu rig right now. You betcha. And I also, just from somebody who had to implement AppArmor and SELinux, I always found AppArmor to be a little easier to use. Yeah, I have. I actually prefer it. And better branding. Hey, one last story that just – because every now and then I like to prove that Richard Stallman was absolutely right, and we probably should have been listening to RMS all along. You laugh, but I'm going to tell you.

You know, the sky is falling. I don't know. Yeah, that's cool. No, did you hear about the equation group where the Kaspersky Labs guys over in Moscow have pinned hard drive firmware-based malware square on the nose of the NSA, and it kind of makes Richard Stallman's point that all the firmware in your machine should be free. I'm just saying. Oh, no, I agree with his vision. That's just the implementation that I have concerns about.

But now, in defense of his vision, he's been spot on for a while. I mean, like really spot on. But, okay. I just wish there was a way to give him another spokesman maybe in front of him that is more presentable to the company. I mean even Richard Stallman has to use a hard drive. How can you – how can you like – how can we as just regular like just humans, how can we possibly think about the firmware in every single device? Can't be done. And that's the problem.

single device like can't be done and that's the problem that's the rub is is you're basically forced into um you know uh living living in a cabin in the woods and just saying screw everything or you know basically accepting a certain level of it and i say accepting with a shutter i hate the idea myself but you know there's a certain level of we're here and unfortunately our ability all we can do is make everyone known know it, and hopefully folks will gripe enough that something will happen. Maybe enough open source projects will get together and create a multi-billion dollar company that can start reproducing these pieces of hardware without that stuff. I don't know. I wish it would happen. I really do.

But I just have concerns that it may be too late. I hate to say that, but you know what I mean. Terry Devlin, you wanted to chime in with something? Yes. I hate to say that, but you know what I mean. Derek Devlin, you wanted to chime in with something? Yes. One is once it becomes a company, and the suggestion Matt just gave, it becomes usually tight to responsibilities to a government.

So it may just result into the same thing again. Could, could, yeah. That said, there is another thing that I sometimes really wonder is we campaign so much because there was a potential. Was that campaign an opening of eyes of the actual potential and then leveraging that? Did it make them aware of it? Yes, because it's like Richard's mission in like 30 years. It's more than 30 years that he has been with this mission. And this, for example, this project is 14 years. So it's off.

It's a baby. That's funny. That's a good catch. I don't think so. I think they're probably pretty clever to figure it out on their own, but that is sort of funny, like a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you had a time machine, the way to prevent massive NSA surveillance would be to make RMS not out there warning of it.

That'd be a great Linux nerd novel right there, I think. That would be to make RMS not out there warning of it. That'd be a great Linux nerd novel right there, I think. That would be, right? With time travel and dinosaurs and you got yourself a cellar. Dude, RMS fan fiction. Why is this not a thing? I think it has to become one. Okay, so one last little public service announcement before we run.

So, as we talked about, and I gotta tell you, maybe I'm gonna have to go find myself some anxiety medications. It's gonna be, it's dramatic, but as we said about, and I got to tell you, I may be going to have to go find myself some anxiety medications. It's going to be – it's dramatic. But as we said, next week is the Beard Apocalypse. And so your Linux Unplugged show episode 81 will be a retro extravaganza of your best of moments. But don't worry. See, these new – it's new in a way.

new. It's new in a way. It's stuff you've seen in your favorite moments, but now available with a self-gratifying feature that we've just implemented known as hindsight. So now you can listen to the things we said with that smug hindsight and nail everything we say. Nails for it.

So we're just going to do that next week because of the beardpocalypse, and then we'll be back in full force with the show in episode 82 but it's going to be a good episode because they're all the ones that you guys submitted a while ago when we did the best of uh for the holiday season there were so many and we threw out a bunch of they're like wait a minute these these are really good we should use these again we're like what would we ever use these for we're not going to do a best of we're never going to take a week off and then

rika's like actually um yeah i gotta leave and nobody's going to be here to edit. And that's the weekend of scale. And I'm like, oh, you know what? Maybe a best of would be a good idea. And so it's not a best of. It's a retro look back. I don't know what the difference is other than it's slightly different wording. Branding. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Matt, so you get to take next Tuesday off, but tune in and listen to all the crazy things you said as like, you know, homework or something, okay? Sounds good. Sounds good. And go check out Matt's article over at Datamation. It was a great article about the danger, or risk, I guess, of boutique Linux distributions. I was like, yeah, totally nailed it, totally nailed it. And you could also comment. Come over, join us live on Tuesdays over at jblive.tv.

Hang out in the Mumble Room, jupiterbroadcasting.com, slash calendar for the local time. All right, everybody, thanks so much for tuning in to this week's episode. Join us next week for episode 81 when we have the retro flavored edition of unplugged We should do a... We've got to get a special group of people to send runs Linux in the field. We need more runs Linux in the field. We need more Runs Linux in the field. Yes. So if anybody's out there when you're traveling or something,

take a picture. I'll even accept a selfie if it's in front of a Linux machine. Send it in to Linux Action Show, jupiterbroadcasting.com with Runs Linux in the subject. I'll have to get you an aerial picture. Yeah, oh, perfect. I need to get up to Ferndale and see, I've been meaning to do this for a while.

I need to get up to Ferndale and see Jed because he's got lots of runs Linux up there. Yeah, there you go. Yeah, that'd be great. That'd be some really cool stuff. A lot of heavy networking. Armed with Arch. Sound the alarm. Those are good. JBTitles.com. Did you see that American prison where they're learning development on Linux?

Yeah, I did. That's pretty awesome. Well, it's shanking more typing. That's one thing we don't have to pay for to educate people on the systems to be able to do something when they get out. Oh, we're paying for it. There you go. Trust me, you're paying for it.

Oh, no, we're paying for them to be there, but we're not paying to teach them to run an OS they don't have to pay for in the first place. I'm the open source Regis. That's what Regis sounds like. Yeah. Oh, man. Hey, that Beardpocalypse music is perfect

because I did have a small heart attack when you played it. Yeah, I'm going to expect it. Your heart just drops into your fate. I'm going to be playing a special edition of Women's Tech Radio today on the stream in a little bit. And, you know, there's some people, they've been interviewing some ladies on there that are big-time Linux users. Like, one of the gals they interviewed

was a big SystemD fan. I was like, what, really? Oh, they started talking about SystemD. I'm like, oh, okay, that's interesting. Didn't expect that. That's cool. Yeah, I was just at a lug meeting last night where a Gen 2 developer was talking about SystemD.

Uh-oh. Uh-oh, here it comes. It's moving on. If it got to the Ubuntu project, you know it's going to eventually get to Gen 2. Those guys at Ubuntu... If Gen 2 starts talking about SystemD, we're going to have another SystemD

flame war in the Gen 2 community. Oh, yeah. I'm waiting to see that. We're just going to get that Gen 2 one. They do have it separated out so you can actually replace OpenRC at the time to be able to do that now. So you can actually replace OpenRC or just install SystemD's binaries so that you can manage remote items through SystemD, journal control, machine control, et cetera. So, I mean, they're using bits and pieces from the user land. You can use it as the init.

You don't have to, etc. ZFS for the wins just posted in the chat room about these bloody HP. Right. So, here's the final report. HP's amazing. HP, oh, they are. I don't have the words actually i don't have the the derogatory superlative that sums up their incompetence um sufficiently so after they've done after trying

to place the order four times and and them and them cancelling it twice okay so on two occasions they cancelled the order we placed so we were like right enough of that nonsense we'll um we'll just cancel the accessories order and we'll we'll find something else my boss has been off in singapore for three weeks doing some business down there and of course you've got every vendor imaginable has got storefront you know uh shops down there so he's been able to go around the bazaars and have a look at everything and actually touch it feel it play with it and and he's come to the right conclusion he's he's bought himself a brand new uh thinkpad x1 carbon yeah that's what he's that's what he's got and that's what he's got, and that's what he's traveling back with, and I think this is a very wise decision.

And then today, we get an email from Hewlett-Packard saying, our order has been dispatched. And then moments later, it's, fuck, mothering HP, 14Z turns up at the office. And we're just like, really? Are you serious? Two and a half weeks after up at the office. I'm just like, really? Are you serious? Two and a half weeks after you cancelled the order and the thing's just turned up and they've billed us for it. How long after the email was that?

This is two and a half weeks after they did the last order that they cancelled. No, you said they sent an email saying it was dispatched. How long after that? Oh, moments. You could count it in minutes. You could count it in minutes. So it's really been the gift that keeps on giving.