LINUX Unplugged - Episode 91: Open Source Kollaboration | LUP 91

Episode Date: May 6, 2015

Aaron Seigo joins us to discuss the Kolab project, open source’s genuine answer to Microsoft Exchange and other groupware solutions. We also discuss the Roundcube project’s fundraiser & possible integration with Kolab.Plus our Virtual LUG reviews Ubuntu 15.04, and we discuss what’s so desktop focused about Ubuntu 15.10 & much, much more!

Let's start with a nice positive story, a nice positive note. I noticed the Linux Foundation posted this up over at Linux.com about an 84-year-old volunteer who's never worked in IT, but he spends his free time rebuilding laptops, loading them with different versions of Linux, and then shipping them off to different areas in Africa. It's with an initiative called Free Geek, and the Linux Foundation made a

video of it. So let's watch it. I think this is pretty cool. I'm James Anderson. I'm 84 years old. Through the years, I've always done repair work. I've enjoyed just taking things apart and seeing how they work. That goes way back to childhood when I took apart an electric plug in my grandmother's floor lamp and promptly blew out all the fuses. I'd had a computer since the days of what we called then transportable computers, a luggable computer, weighed as much as my wife's sewing machine that I carried around. So I've owned a computer since probably the mid-1980s, and I've always been interested, used them, although I'd never been an IT person at all, never had any training in it.

I work at Free Geek. I learned about Free Geek from my friend Bob, who was a neighbor. I had just returned from working for 13 weeks in Zimbabwe. I saw the need for computers among young people who were studying and who seemed deprived to me of the opportunities that computers offered them. So when I heard about Free Geek and its program of receiving donations of used computers and the possibility that through rebuilding them, I might be able to provide computers to some of those young people. After a couple of years here, I moved into rebuilding laptops. And since I've been rebuilding laptops, we've sent well over 100 laptops to various African nations to be used in schools and by non-profit organizations.

Freegeek makes a huge point of being open source. So every PC computer here goes out with Linux based, and that's hundreds and hundreds and of... This is just one room with our laptops waiting to be repaired. All of these that are working will go out with Linux-based operating systems. My continuing goal in being at FreeGate is to provide the laptops for Africa. And the kind of problem solving that's involved. You've run into an issue with a computer, and I find it very rewarding to solve that problem. I like the tinkering, but above all, I just simply enjoy the community. It's an unusual place, and the results are very rewarding. So as long as I'm able, I think I will be here on Fridays. As long as they'll let me, and I have no indication that they won't. That's pretty neat.

You know, what I want to do is I'd like to go find those places and talk to those people. That's pretty neat. I don't know if they do those around here, but I think there might be something like that. I want to do that as a job. I know. It's pretty cool to take those old machines that people don't want to necessarily use and send them somewhere, make them be of pretty good use. So that is pretty cool.

Anderson began in 2006. It's pretty cool. After he and his wife went to Zimbabwe to teach math. Didn't Noah do an interview at scale with an organization in Southern California? I was doing something like that? Yeah, there's a few. We see them at every fest we go to. Yeah, it's getting more and more of a thing.

We're like, oh, I just don't know how to get involved. I don't know much about it. But I know that there's a local group here that takes old computers and puts them at libraries or something. They're not sending them off out of the country. They're putting them here local for students and stuff. So it's pretty neat. Welcome to Linux Unplugged, your weekly Linux talk show that's just simply counting down the days until they install Linux on the Apple Watch. My name is Chris.

And my name is Matt. All right, Matt, that'll conclude all of our Apple Watch discussion probably forever in Linux Unplugged. No, I can't say that. But definitely this week, we have a huge show for Episode 91. We've got a couple of things to follow up on that I think are pretty important because we pre-recorded last week. So I want to get those in towards the top. Then Mr. Saigo, friend of the show, joins us in just a little bit to discuss what's going on at Colab and the RoundCube project, which is, Roundcube is an incredible open source web mail project. I just recently backed their most recent crowdfunding initiative.

We're going to talk about that, maybe discuss how it compares to some of the other popular projects out there. So Saigo will be joining us to talk about all that. And then towards the end of the show, we're going to get the MumbleRoom's reaction to the Ubuntu 1504 release. There has been some strong reaction in some areas of the internet, specifically in regards to the SystemD implementation. We'll get into that in just a minute. And then we're going to look ahead at Ubuntu 15.10.

It just got its name. They just announced a new focus on the desktop. We'll try to figure out what the hell that means and if it actually is going to make any bit of difference. So we've got a lot to talk about today, a lot to get through. And not only that, we have a bust in Mumble Room. Let's bring them in right now. Time appropriate greetings, my virtual lug. Time appropriate greetings. Good evening. Hello, everybody. Hello. Hi, guys. Oh, Wimpy and Popey, you guys snuck in right as we got started. Hello, guys. Good to

have you here too. Time to do, let's do a victory lap for a member in our audience. This just came in just about five hours ago from PM Nocturnal. His freshly minted MacBook Pro 8.1 edition. It looks pretty nice. And he had this to write in. I just thought this was perfect because we've been following this kind of thread for three weeks now. He says, I just convinced my family over to, or converted my family over to Linux completely. The last was a MacBook Pro used by my bro. The moment it was updated to Yosemite, things started to slow down horribly. It took 30 effing seconds to start Firefox on it. He was fed up and it went, and in one night I installed Linux Mint 17.1 Cinnamon Edition. And he said, quietly kept. I'm not sure. I guess he just means

it quietly kept it on there. He was so happy to see the way I customized it to work with his workflow. He now owns a small photographic and AV studio.

Now all I need is quality audio and video editing apps. He's willing to learn new apps. GIMP is what I made him use in Mac. So editing on

wasn't a problem under Linux. iMovie and GarageBand is what's stopping me to make the complete switch for him. He started using KDN Live and he started to like it and yet there's not much like iMovie and GarageBand is what's stopping me to make the complete switch for him. He started using KDN Live, and he started to like it, and yet there's not much like iMovie. I hope he'll eventually switch over for audio, but I can't think of a good app.

I'm searching things like KX Studio, AV Linux, but suggestions are welcome. He says also, we'll get to suggestions in just a second, but he says also, just a tip, if you're converting a Windows user to Linux, just hit them with quality Plasma-based desktop. Manjaro is good, yeah. He likes Manjaro. And for Mac users, go with Linux Cinnamon rather than GNOME and install Plank and customize it. That's worked for him. Well, it's each your own.

So audio apps. I'm a big fan of Oaken Audio and Audacity, which Audacity just recently had. I read an interview with the developers. There's some really interesting stuff happening with the project there. They are finally working on a new UI for Audacity, which would be really welcome. And it seems to be like it's got some serious legs. They just recently did an update after a long time that introduced real-time effects preview. So Audacity is getting pretty serious.

The UI, I think, is doing it a disservice because it doesn't look like a serious app. It looks like a 90s Linux app that was always missing features compared to the proprietary alternatives, where now it's actually a pretty serious contender. It just has that legacy UI. So take a look at that, PM Nocturnal. But Matt, do you have any suggestions for audio stuff? You know, I've been using Audacity since as long,

literally as far back as I can remember, since my earliest days of using Linux. And, yeah, the UI is definitely one of those things to where it grows on you after a while. Initially, I thought it was, even back then, I thought it was horribly ugly. But now it's like I can't even fathom them changing that. It would feel somehow wrong. But as far as other applications, that's pretty much my primary one. I can't really see using anything else. It just does what I need it to,

but my needs are pretty minimal. Mumbaroom, anybody have any comments on audio and things like for studio work? Nobody's going to mention Ardour, really? I figured somebody would come to the defense of Ardour. Yeah, this is your more serious end production software, where if you

have multiple tracks and devices coming in, real-time audio recording. With real-time effects and all of that, Ardor is serious business, and it's definitely worth taking a look at too. I think we've mentioned this before, but I don't mention it very often because we don't use it here at JB1. So I don't have a lot of hands-on experience with it. I think if I did, I'd probably promote it more. I think my hang-up, because I've looked at wanting to get into it at one point but i think when i look at it i see all these options and i'm just i i'm a little overwhelmed i want but at the same time i want to take i want to take a weekend and just dedicate myself to trying to learn because i'm sure i can but i feel like it's

trying to learn it's like trying to learn blender incredibly powerful but it's like i'm i'm just too too much of a noob i guess yeah lightworks is't know. Yeah, Lightworks is like that too. And that's a really hard line to walk if you're going to have a serious tool to do production and work. They are often too complicated in a lot of ways. Right, right. That's just the nature of the beast. I don't know if you guys noticed, but today it doesn't really affect us Linux users yet, but good old games. The guys over at GOG, guys and gals, I shouldn't say guys, the folks, the people,

launched Galaxy to the public today. It's only available for Windows and Mac, but I suppose eventually they seem to be indicating that they'll be also releasing for Linux. What is Galaxy? I didn't know until this morning, to be honest, because it's not really on my radar.

But think of it as a platform for DRM-free games similar to Steam, with auto-updates, downloading from the library, social interaction. And one of the key components is it does not require online connection. Now, it is not open source, but it is predominantly featured focusing on DRM-free games. Anybody in the Mumble room see this and have a reaction to it? We talked about it today on Tech Talk Today and it seems to be that the people who are for this are people that

like Steam but have a good set of games they have from their good old games library don't really want to have to have online play, want to still be able to do the social thing for multiplayer and things like that. Well, I'm on their page now i'm looking at just under the news section for gog just kind of get an idea of it you know sounds really awesome unfortunately their their news page for it is really doing it a disservice because all it shows me is a banner with gog.com galaxy

and some space and then and then the verbiage i i would i would really be interested in maybe i don't know seeing the beta in action on a YouTube video. So they want to make Steam, but for GOG games. But they're going to do a couple of features, like rollback. So if a game update makes something you don't like, you can roll back to the previous version. I like that. No, I love that.

And in fact, you don't even have to have a profile to use it unless you want to get game achievements and things like that. So it sounds like the two killer features then, if I'm understanding correctly, is the big one is, you know, if you just really don't want to deal with the profile, you don't have to have one if you don't want to have the achievements and whatnot. And then the rollback feature, that alone, honestly,

I gotta tell you, that's pretty sweet. Yeah, it's... WWNSX, what do you think? Like, with the Steam backlash a week and a half ago or so there was um someone made an app or someone's been working on an app where it conglomerates like this it would make this steam and then origin all in one sort it's just too much to run on one system like i have steam i already have, then I have

to have this. And then, on top of that, on Steam, if you buy something from Ubisoft, then you have Uplay running at the same time as Steam. It's a good idea if you want to focus solely, like, on GOG, DRM-free, you know, hopefully

when they get more Linux titles. But to me, it's just like, I already have enough, you know hopefully when they get more linux titles but to me it's just like i already have enough you know i'll probably maybe get it but i do like some of the things like they're pushing like the optional auto updates that you can roll back that's really good yeah i guess i'm starting to i was starting to lean towards it well you know i watched their video and their video is very like much like consumer choice and like uh free freedom of this and like here let me like uh i'll just like that gets towards the end of the uh of the video about 50 50 seconds into the video to use we call this freedom of choice our client application will offer convenient game updating as well as the

option to stay in touch with friends but we will never force it on you never require you to have it to play your games we call it the optional client regardless of which digital store you buy your games from we don't think you should be locked into it we strongly believe that you should be free to play together with all your friends without any third-party client apps or accounts required we call this cross play welcome to gog galaxy the drm free online gaming platform so that's how they pitch it pretty good that's actually okay now that's pretty good yeah right you know immediately i realized why i care yeah i mean that's that's my big that's always been my big gripe with anything. I like that.

And I like that it's optional. So the only way I could see this possibly working is if I only have Steam in this. There's no way I want more than that. I don't want Steam, just Zara, and whatever the else is. And thankfully on Linux we don't have this whole crap show, but yeah. Although it is kind of funny to where, you know, we get rid of that pesky DRM stuff so that you can run this on your Windows computer kind of mentality, which is kind of like what? But outside of that, I like the message. I like the idea.

I like the fact that they are at least at some general level providing folks with a choice, and that's cool. I'm going to grab a video that Micah89 in the chat room just linked here. This is the first look from Calliehead Pro or Craighead Pro. Sorry, Craighead. I don't know. Hey, I'm Craig of Craighead Pro. Sorry, Craighead. I don't know. Hey, I'm Craig of Craighead Pro. There you go. Nice. It looks like he's on Windows 10. So, yeah. Moving on, I would say it looks like a web app

on a desktop. So it looks like your GOG library. The fact that they couldn't make this available for Linux is a joke. Yeah, that's kind of my... I mean, if you're going to be pushing the whole DRM-free freedom choice, come on. You've got to go all the way with it. This is their Galaxy client?

This is their website? Oh, that's it. This is... You're telling me they couldn't have released this for Linux? This is super weak. It's not like it's really that visually like mine. It looks like it's just a website. It looks like a Chromium app with a web page inside of it. It probably is. You know what would be funny?

Is to actually build that and then email it to them. This is starting to feel like good old games or GOGs. I like them a lot, but they're lackluster. If you want to be a serious contender in this game, you've got to be like Steam and Dessert. You've got to have a Linux client. A, number one. B, make the client seriously worth it.

Don't do this crap MVP stuff. Actually show something that's worth my time. I just disappoint. Well, visually it's meh at best. I mean there's that factor. But also, as you pointed out, the fact that they're not releasing it for Linux. I mean just from a brass tacks financial point of view, fun fact, if you're in the indie game space or you're in the not EA or not, you know, some of the bigger guys out there

that are running games on disks and things like that you buy from stores, you probably want to make sure you're hitting as many markets as possible. And Linux is where the growth is. So they might want to get on that. And, you know, you talk to indie developers and they say Linux is a small but passionate

and growing section of their business and they want to be in there now as they're growing their business. It makes a lot of sense for them. I'm sure GOG will eventually come around with a Linux client, but after seeing that, I'm not so sure I'm waiting anymore. I'll just continue to download from their website. I just bought

one of the Star Wars games a couple days ago from them. Well, as you pointed out, if anyone wants to build their own, they can. They just simply, I forget exactly how you do it from Chrome, but it's usually pretty easy. You just pop out a thing and it appears on your desktop. There you go. You're done. You know what? I'm going to build them. I'm going to create it for them and then I'm going to send it to them.

I'm going to send them an invoice. It would be like the Linux port of the GOG Galaxy. Okay, Kofi, are we being too harsh? I think it's interesting because GOG still has a user base which is 90% Windows and Mac, and they are going to get a Linux client available. I think they're meeting a need that Linux games is a process of refinement. Steam, it gets the massive user base over but it still contains their drm which isn't what everyone should be content with um i think if i don't know if gog is going to be the people who

make it they make what everyone wants but as long as there's people trying to work on it we could can't we only just make progress? Yeah, I do kind of – I grok what you're saying. But it's kind of – I kind of hate that argument on the other respect because I would say GOG's small Linux share would be due to the fact that they've completely ignored GOG, even teased a Linux market to some degree pre-Mac announcement for many years. And so it's kind of like saying, my tomato garden really sucks. Yeah, yeah, guess what? I don't nurture my tomato garden. Yeah, obviously it sucks. I mean, that's obvious. Yes, of course their Linux market share is tiny. There was demand for them to enter this market well before there was ever Steam for Linux. I just, I understand that just sheer

numbers-wise, the Linux share is small, but they could have been with their DRM-free stance, with their huge DOSBox compatibility, and here's the other thing. Before you completely, just before you completely give them a pass, also consider that in this same time, while

Steam passed them up and got a Linux client out there, there's this other group that came along called the Humble Bundle. And the Humble Bundle not only showed us how you can get games over to Linux, but how you can actually get developers to do ports, and in almost all cases, native ports over to Linux. And that's another opportunity that GOG completely missed. They got lapped by the Humble guys. Now there's a full-time Humble store, and they're making great profits, and GOG totally missed that opportunity because they never had

their head in Linux. They never figured it out. But if they would have followed some of these things, they could have been these guys. GOG would have been perfect for those kind of bundles. That would have been perfect for them. Plus, they could have filled in from their back catalog as well. They didn't see it, and I'm sure they don't have the resources, but I don't want to give them too much of a pass. We too often do that. And in reality, sometimes companies make mistakes and they miss market opportunities. And I think GOG has done that. And now they're at a continual disadvantage in the Linux market. And so it continues to perpetuate that priority for them. One area I think they still have an opportunity to recoup

from, because I do agree that they missed an opportunity but i see another one what they're doing with this client itself is is great i love that unfortunately it's on the it's just it's not available for us if they would simply pull the trigger and export an icon to their desktop like i suggested with with chrome and make it available to everybody i honestly feel like that it's like okay so we've created an atmosphere now we they may not have the resources to encourage a lot of porting of games. They may not even have an interest in it, but at least the client is there. At least it's like, okay, now we're different in Steam. Come bring your games over to us, and we can actually encourage this other atmosphere.

Just having something on the desktop is nice. Just that is nice. And then other game developers might be like, oh, hey, I would like to have an opportunity to provide my games to where they don't have to have an account. This is different than Steam. That's cool. Let's check that out. That's all they got to do. It doesn't require a lot of effort on their part.

It doesn't take a lot, right? It doesn't have to be much. It just has to be slightly more useful than the web. Like, that's all you have to go for. So, like, Steam walks that line pretty closely, right? Steam is, in a lot of ways, it's the insides of the Steam Chrome are just a web page. The outsides, though, are written in the native platform. So, like, in the case of Linux, it's GTK, and you can theme it, and you can go in there and set the dialogues and create libraries and where you want downloads to go.

You can opt into betas and the settings. Like, there's interfaces for your microphone, for doing TeamSpeak, and for your social settings. All perfect, all in the Steam client without ever having to load your web page. Right? So the Steam client does a brilliant job of walking the line of standing on top of their web technology. So that way they don't have to write two different stores at the same time. But then yet wrapping it in a Chrome that gives you a lot of extra options and benefits that absolutely make it worth having the Steam client. Not to mention like the downloader management and all

that kind of stuff. I think that's all GOG really has to do, and that bar is not that high. Steam's not that great. No, it really isn't. As much as I enjoy Steam games, I would be thrilled pink to see GOG rattle Valve's cage a little bit. Great! I'm all

for that. It has to have some kind of functionality. And I'm sure they'll work that in there. Oh, yeah. And like I said, I have not written them off at all. Hopefully this is their cold cup of coffee. And that they're going to say, oh, wait, we really need to get on this.

As soon as one hits the AUR, I'm going to install it. There you go. Which will be five minutes from now. You think? I wonder. Wouldn't be that hard. Alright, so before we go any further, I want to take a minute and talk about our friends over at Linux Academy

who are sponsoring this week's episode of Linux Unplugged. Go over to linuxacademy.com slash unplugged speaking of that, and that's where you're going to get our Linux Unplugged discount, which is fantastic. Go to linuxacademy.com slash unplugged, and you'll get a 33% discount on the Linux Academy content. That's an incredible discount. 33% is nuts.

That's going to be $50 for a quarter. Now, why do they do it like this? Why is this system set up like this? Because they're always adding great stuff. Really, really, really great stuff. I could tell you all about Linux Academy, and I want to do that. But a lot of you have heard about Linux Academy. So for those of you who have heard this spot before, stay tuned

because there's something that is for you specifically that I want to get to. But first, for those of you who are new, Linux Academy is the place to go to make yourself sort of break through that level, to train yourself on that next skill set, to learn that next thing, to transition from one distribution to another. It's an online self-paced learning system. It's an entire platform created by true Linux and open source enthusiasts who got together with their friends who are educators and developers, and they created the Linux Academy platform

specifically for this purpose. That's all they do is cover open source and Linux technologies. That's why they're great at it. It's their passion. It's their focus. And they have scenario-based labs which give me the confidence and will give you the confidence and Linux technologies. That's why they're great at it. It's their passion. It's their focus. And they have scenario-based labs which give me the confidence and they'll give you the confidence

because you work hands-on in these scenarios. You'll receive access to these labs. They'll put you in the middle of tasks common to an everyday environment. You'll work in the advanced lab environments and complete the scenarios from beginning to end on live servers.

So you'll walk away from that having experience and confidence when you need to go apply that to a job. That's more than just training. That honestly, for me, reduces anxiety. That means I'm not doing this stuff for the first time. Plus, you don't have to worry if you get a little stuck. There's instructor help available. You can choose from seven plus Linux distributions. They'll automatically adjust the courseware and the virtual machines because they spin up virtual machines as you need them. And this can be a good cost savings if you're going to be learning some

AWS stuff because you don't have to worry about getting dinged on AWS, which I've done. And something for guys like me who've now been a member for Linux Academy for a little while, they've added Nuggets. And I like this because I have found that even though I've been using Linux for longer than I'd like to admit, I still could do things a little bit better from time to time. And there's just a lot of ways to string things together. And this is where Nuggets come together. There are single how-tos that walk you through doing specific tasks that don't belong on a course, don't really go with like a large range of things. It's a single video lesson. It's somewhere between two and 60 minutes and it

teaches you like one specific thing on how to do it. It's pretty cool. And those are nuggets and they just added them recently. So speaking of things they've added recently, if you've been a listener for a little while, you're probably familiar with Linux Academy. You might even be a member. At least I hope you are. Well, I think this is something pretty cool, and it's going to fund open source development. So I want to tell you about it. It's called the Linux Academy Founders Club.

And this is where you can go. You can become a member. You get access to, like, content as it's being developed. You get major swag from time to time, access to site beta features. You get special recognition in as it's being developed. You get major swag from time to time. Access to site beta features. You get special recognition in the community, different areas. But you also get to vote on something really neat that they're working on. It's their open source grant program.

Any open source licensed project can apply for this. And they're going to give up to $5,000 for the project that their founders club votes on. That's amazing because these guys truly care about this kind of stuff, and they want to give it back, and there's a pretty good chance that one of those open source projects is going to be in our audience. So I'm going to have more information about how you can get that soon. The RHCSA just also recently went live. DevOps Essentials is available now. 50 Video Nuggets just recently went up.

The OpenStack course is just, they're always updating new stuff. I think that's probably the area I should maybe visit, to be honest with you. But I love that I know it's just always constantly getting refreshed. And so that means I'm always getting value

of my membership, which I do pay for my membership. You go over to linuxacademy.com slash unplugged, sign up, get our 33% discount, and you also support this show. And then you get to try something out really great that might even help take your skill set up to the next level. They have in-depth resources. You're going to be super impressed.

Go over to linuxacademy.com slash unplugged. And a big thanks to Linux Academy for sponsoring the Unplugged program. Well, two critical courses that I don't think most people are aware of that I think are probably two of the most important. The first one is I've Never Touched Linux a Day in My Life and Where Do I Get Started. That's a good one. I love that course. I mean, I forget the proper name for it, but that's essentially what it is. It's like it is literally you park anyone in front of it and they will actually walk them through it.

And the second course is, okay, so I've got some certs. I've studied for my certs. I'm ready to go. It's basically designed to help you find work. That's awesome. And that is designed to help you find work. Yes. That's awesome. And that is an actual proper course they have. Those two get you in the door and it gets you out the door.

You know what makes me pumped to do these spots is when I get the – I'd love people to keep sending them to me. When they say, hey, I went to Linux Academy. I got my certs. I got a job. Yeah. That's really cool. So cool. So we have Mr. Saigo joining us in just a moment, but producer Rotten Corpse is here, and I wanted to get an update on a software project that he's involved with,

so I asked him to join us to give us a little update on UGIT, which just shipped version 2.0. Mr. Corpse, what's new with UGIT, and what the heck is UGIT? UGIT's a download manager. It's a multi-download, so you can do a queue of downloads. You can get a ton of downloads all at once. It makes it a lot easier to just manage a large list of downloads that you're doing. And this is a project you maintain? Yeah.

I'm not the founder, but I'm the project manager of the project. And we've actually made a lot of changes. There's a couple thousand line changes, and there's been almost a couple hundred. I think it's like 180, 175, somewhere around there, commits to it over the course of about a year or so. The biggest change is the fact that we've separated the UI and the application core so that the whole core is separate from the GTK toolkit

so that allows us we could eventually put QT on it or something like that but we haven't set that up but the whole goal is to be able to do that at some point we've also made it where like the We haven't set that up, but the whole goal is to be able to do that at some point. We've also made it where, like, it used to be with, like, the 1.0 branch, there was a requirement for the plug-in to do with certain features, like multi-threading and mirrors, so, like, multi-source downloads. We no longer require that plug-in, although we still offer the plug-in, and we even improve some features with the plugin as well.

So now there's the core engine, which is run through curl and area two as the plugin are now separated both as plugins. So you can choose whichever one you want. You can even, if one of them fails, you can actually make it revert to the next one in a sequence. So no matter what, the engines will be there to do whatever you want them to do. And what's the shenanigans I hear about an Android app? What's this crap? Yeah, we created an Android app for UGIT.

It's actually not based on the 2.0 version, but it is basically all the features that people love about UGIT is in the Android version as well. That is super cool. And you can use it to download crap to your Android device, like your SD card or whatever? Yeah, you can download anything you want. One of my favorite parts is that with my RSS reader, I can just copy the URL and have U-Git running, and then it'll immediately start downloading to the app. That's neat. That's great. Well, very cool. I love it because when I'm going to download a big ISO

or a whole bunch of stuff or a big batch of stuff off of archive.org, I often will just throw it into UGIT. That way I can just close my browser and not worry about it. There's actually a new feature we added as well that helps people who want to do a huge batch. We have a system called Sequential Batch where it'll automatically scan the list of what you want it to do a huge batch. We have a system called Sequential Batch, where it'll automatically add, it'll scan the list of what you

want it to do, and it will use wildcards to find out what, like to just go through a sequence of the numbers of, like, based on dates or something like that. Now we actually have it where you can do multiple wildcards in the same list. Well, that sounds like somebody could nicely abuse a CDN with that one.

Very nice, sir. Very nice. The CDN Punisher. You should, you know, if you did it right, you could repackage this and sell it to guys like Alan as a CDN stress tester. Alright. Alright, Rod Korf. Thank you, sir, for the update, and it was great to see you at LinuxFest.

We'll have a link to UGIT in the show notes. Alright, so we'll have, we have just aIT in the show notes. All right. So we have just a speaking of LinuxFest Northwest. I also wanted to mention Jupiter Broadcasting is going to be at OSCON in July, July 20th through the 24th. See Noah and I at OSCON as well as Angela and Paige. And I don't know, maybe some others as well. We'll probably be taking the train down or perhaps maybe taking the whole family down.

So OSCON is the O'Reilly Open Source Conference. I think this is the last year it's going to be in Portland too. So this may be the last year I go. So if you want to meet up with us, join us July 20th and the 24th. If that's not going to work for you, also coming up even sooner, Southeast Linux Fest, June 12th through the 14th at the Sheraton Charlotte Airport in Charlotte, North Carolina. June 12th through the 14th, Southeast Linux Fest. I'm not so sure if I'll be at this one or BSD can because they both are on the same day or weekend. But I'm pretty sure Noah and producer Q5Sys will be at Southeast Linux Fest.

And we'll have a big presence there, a live stream powered by Obes. And we'd love to have you stop by and say hi to us. That is a great, great, one of the best Linux Fests. Not the best. I mean, come on, guys. Linux Fest Northwest in my backyard. But if I live down south, something tells me this might be the one. Southeast Linux Fest or SELF, June 12th through the 14th, come say hi to the JB crew.

And speaking of SELF, our buddies over at the Arch Assault Project have a shirt to help fund their initiative to get to self, to meet the community. They're releasing their first Arch Assault shirt in prep for Southeast Linux Fest. They are selling them at teespring.com slash archassault dash at dash self. Not the best URL ever, but it's teespring.com slash ArchAssault-at-South. If you like the ArchAssault project and want to help them get to self, they'd love to sell a few shirts, and I'll have a link in the show note for that as well. And it's a nice shirt. It's got the ArchAssault logo right here on the front.

Oh, that's cool. Yeah, and I'm an Arch fan, of course. Everybody knows that. And I used to be a pen tester, so it's kind of cool to have that. So I'm definitely getting one. And then on the back they have, there is no security on this earth. There is only opportunity. General MacArthur.

Pretty hardcore. Pretty hardcore. And it's just – they're selling it for basically no profit, $15. So maybe buy two because they're not going to make any money at $15. Yeah, no, that's true. I would have gone a little higher. You know, don't you? I think buy two because they're not going to make any money at $15. But it's worth it. I would have gone a little higher. I think buy two would be the way to go. You do know at $15 you don't make nothing.

Teespring.com slash ArchAssault dash at dash self or just find the link in the show notes. And good luck to the ArchAssault guys. They were put on a good show there last year. And I think you should definitely check it out.

All right. So I know I've been teasing it for a long time. And I want to clear room for it. So I wanted to just take a moment right now. And right before we bring Mr. Saigo in, I want to mention DigitalOcean because I think they're so awesome that we've got to just take a minute and mention them. And then we'll start talking to Aaron. I love DigitalOcean. I love them. I love them because my son,

I was really, really excited to get him to try a Linux rig, and the candy that got him to swallow it was Minecraft. And then I'm like, okay, well, we have a Minecraft server for the Jupyter Broadcasting community, but it requires a slightly older version of Minecraft, and I'm not so sure I want him on the public just yet. So I went over to DigitalOcean, and I set myself up a Minecraft server. It was just a really straightforward process. It took no time at all because I get root access to my own cloud server up at DigitalOcean

and it is super intuitive and very easy to get started. So I knew I was going to get a great Linux rig. I knew I could throw Minecraft on there in no time. I got started in less than 55 seconds and pricing plans, they started only $5 a month. Then'll get you 512 megabytes of RAM, a 20 gigabyte SSD. Yeah, they're all SSDs, by the way. One CPU and a terabyte of transfer. Now, since I'm doing Minecraft, I decided to go with two gigs of RAM. And I think I have a 40 gigabyte SSD. It's really straightforward, the pricing structure. And they even offer hourly pricing if you just need to do some software testing or something like that. Just go spin up a droplet up there, throw something in a Docker container and bang on it for a couple of hours and you're done.

And the thing I love about that is they make it really easy to deploy Docker containers. So you could be working locally on your laptop or your desktop, and when you're ready to actually test it, maybe you want to throw it on a public IP, you don't want to have to bug IT to open up a port on the firewall, just throw it up on a DigitalOcean droplet for a couple of hours, have the public tester bang on it, get your test results in, and then shut it down. It's really cheap. They have an incredible interface to do all of this, and this is sort of the secret sauce here. It's very intuitive, and power users can replicate on a larger scale with their straightforward

APIs. You can even automate that process, and that's starting to get pretty powerful. They've got data center locations in New York, San Francisco, Singapore, Amsterdam, London, and a brand new one in Germany that's gorgeous with great connectivity, really a central point over there. And when you look at all of this, you're thinking, okay, this is a pretty good package. And I'll tell you from a technology standpoint, I'm all in. It's based on Linux. They're using KVM for the virtualizer. It's SSDs for the I.O. so you get super high-end I.O. You don't need a full fiber-attached RAID full of 10,000 RPM for 15,000 RPM spinning rust.

You just have a great SSD, and it's really easy to expand that. They can do that inside the interface. You don't have to reload the box or anything like that. You've got one-click deployment of applications, Ruby on Rails, Docker, GitLab, Ghost, WordPress, all the good stuff. One button deploys it. And then on top of all of that, they have the best tutorials on the internet. And I'm just going to say that because I, you know, it's like, I noticed this started to happen with Arch a few years ago. You start to search for stuff. And a lot of time the Arch wiki result shows up.

Man, Arch has pretty good documentation. That's good. But even before I used Arch, like I knew Arch had good documentation. Like everybody knows that, right? That's what's happening over at DigitalOcean, because they started to pay their contributors up to $200 to write these tutorials. And then they realized, okay, well, now we need an editing staff. So then they invested in hiring editors to curate and edit the how-tos, and they keep them relevant and current. And when they roll out a new technology like FreeBSD, they roll out a whole host of tutorials to match that. It's an end-to-end thing they do. It's a complete product, complete package, and it's super respectable. And they do it right. Here's the best part. You can get a $10 promo. You can try it two months absolutely free when

you use the promo code DEOUNPLUGGED. You create your account, no credit card required. You just apply it. DEOUNPLUGGED, one word, lowercase. That'll give you a $10 credit. Go try out CoreOS. It is a game changer. CoreOS is going to change the enterprise. You can go try it out. FreeBSD's up there. I don't know why you'd want that. They've got Ubuntu, Fedora, CentOS, all that good stuff's up there. You can go deploy applications. It's really

good. And you could even go baller style where like, you know what? Don't even bother with starting to just deploy the whole thing. Ubuntu, Fortuna 4, up to date with the entire LAMP stack. MySQL, ready to go. Boom. Done. You've got it.

Seriously, it's a great way to go. Use the promo code DEOUNPLUGGED. And a big thank you to DigitalOcean for sponsoring Linux Unplugged. You guys, freaking maniacs over there with all this stuff. I'm really impressed with the pace of innovation. I don't know how they do it. I talk to the people on the inside, and not only do they do it, but they kind of do it with a good attitude. It's kind of remarkable. I think it's because they're on the East Coast.

Maybe that's what it is. Yeah, that definitely helps, sure. I think on the West Coast, we don't quite work at that same speed. Well, Matt, I'm super excited to welcome Aaron Seigel, friend of the show, and his new jingle, because he's a return guest. Mr. Aaron Seigel is now working for a new

company. Is it Colab? Colab Systems, Aaron? What's the full name? Yeah, it's Colab Systems AG. Colab Systems AG. And here's what I know about Colab. It's a free software platform of sort of like an exchange competitor or like a Zimbra competitor, but a little more open, really respected for privacy is sort of the hubbub on the street.

And it's something that's like always been on my bucket list to try. And I was pretty excited when I saw you moved over there, but I don't actually get the connection. You know, when I think of Aaron Saigo, I think KDE, I think of the Vivaldi tablet. I don't know if I necessarily thought Colab. So what are you doing at Colab, and how has it been? Yeah, so, I mean, the connection is, I guess, long-term. When Colab first started, a lot of people that were involved in the project were also involved with KDE. There was a crossover there already, so I kind of knew some of the guys behind it.

And this is back in like 2001, I believe. And so when it first hit 1.0, I actually deployed it, tried it out. It was usable. It was not what we have today, but it was there. And it was definitely a step up. When Colab Systems started, it was started by a very good friend of mine, Georg Griever, who lives in the same city that I do now, which is handy. And we'd often talked about doing something together sometime. And late last year, the opportunity came up. He said, remember how we've always said

we should maybe do something sometime? Well, how about it? So I'm there doing two things right now, which is on the one hand, I'm helping with some of the technology, you know, the architecture of certain pieces of what goes into Colab. So on that side, my official title is Senior Technologist. And I work with a couple of other guys that are just fantastic, including people like the lead architect for the entire shebang, Yaron. So that's been great.

And the team in general is just fantastic. Just so I kind of am tracking my understanding, is there also like a hosted Colab company that is separate but somehow related to Colab Systems? Yeah. So we started as a proof of concept to show that, you know, what can Colab do? And so we started Colab now. And it just so happened that it was launched within about 24 hours or so of the Snowden revelations. Right. Yes.

Which was just complete coincidence, we promise. But we had a real focus on privacy, and one of the reasons why it's hosted and managed entirely within Switzerland is the legal framework here, which has a lot of privacy, a lot of respect for people's privacy, and all the routes for things like requesting data and whatnot are not only very strict on the side of the consumer, the individual, but also it's a transparent process. So we never have a gag on us that says, oh, you can't talk about it. In fact, here, the federal government once a year releases a complete report of every single wiretap, et cetera, request that they make.

They obviously anonymize it, but they say when, where it basically happened and for what reason, what law was enacted in that. So transparency is a big thing here. So, yeah, so Colab now, we've got a lot of people from all over the world that use that single system. And that's our hosted version of Colab. And, of course, a lot of people use Colab on-site, our hosted version of Colab.

And of course, a lot of people use Colab on-site. People who are larger institutions, especially they hire us to do support and we have Colab Enterprise for that. So this is really anybody that needs like an exchange type solution where you have a group where with calendaring, email, task lists, contacts, resources and roles, and all these kinds of things, right?

It's a complete solution for this. That's right. Notes as well. And so resource booking, all of those fancy, dancey features. And the client side is all cross-platform. If you have a Windows phone, BlackBerry, iOS device, Android, like most of the rest of the world, you're covered. If you run it on Windows, Mac, or Linux, you're covered. So you choose the client, we run the servers.

And so Colab has been around, I'm sorry, I think you mentioned it, but did you say 2006? Well, Colab itself started in the early 2000s. Colab Systems itself has been around in its current form for about four years. Okay. So now I want to fast forward to this week where I saw you did – or you were involved with Colab's announcement for RoundCube's next funding initiative. They're calling it RoundCube Next. They're doing it on Indiegogo. They have 58 days left. They've raised $13,629 of a goal of $80,000, 17% funded right now.

How is Roundcube connected to Colab, and what's going on here? Yeah, so we obviously need an amazing, world-class, kick-ass web app to sit in front of it. I mean, if you don't have a web interface, you don't have a group or a server these days. And Roundcube, I think, has got the best interface out there. Well, the rest of the world agrees with you because it's the most popular free software webmail app on the internet. Oh, interesting. We know over half a million installations, and some of these are serving entire ISP,

ASP communities. So there are millions of people literally every day who access their mail, their contacts, their calendar, etc. through Roundcube. So the connection between Colab and Roundcube is we needed something that was great. And before we were using something called Horda, which had its limitations.

And Georg, who I mentioned earlier, my good friend, founder, CEO of the company, he got together with Thomas Brudeli, who lives in Switzerland as well, as it turns out, and they sat down on a veranda with some beer in hand, as one does, and said, hey, we need a good web app. You make one. How can we make this work? And so what ended up happening is Thomas and the other, the second most important developer in terms of contribution and whatnot,

both ended up working for Colab Systems. So for the past few years, we've actually been paying for the large, the lion's share of Roundcube development, which we've been very happy to do because it's an amazing product and we need it. So we have no problems with giving back like that. I don't know if I was quite aware of that level of involvement. That's actually pretty great. And so, of course, the number one thing that the Internet does is says,

well, what about, and they'll pick their favorite dark mail, mail pile, etc. Do you have any comments on where Roundcube fits in to some of these others that have also sort of gotten more popularity post-Edward Snowden? Yeah, so I think that the more options we have, the better. It's always, I think, for granted as long as they're free software. Not all the new things are. But what we can say for Roundcube is it has 10 years of history it works now and we plan to

push it forward even further I like the way you're doing this too the primary funding is like okay we get this primary funding we're going to get this core figured out we get to more funding we're going to get some of these other things that are really nice to have figured out that would be really great then there's these stretch goals that are like the filter

the road warrior, the chatter, the organizer. It's just an interesting way to sort of display this. What do you think, Aaron? Are you so far pleased with the traction, $13,000 in two days? Yeah, I mean, that's fantastic. We're looking for a total of $80,000 to get the core done, and we're trying to be realistic about what it takes.

I mean, we want to make sure we have enough resources to really make this happen. At the same time, we're going to continue to maintain RoundCube 1. We have to for clients as well. So, you know, it's a fairly big commitment on our part to make this happen. And it's great to see the community of users, you know, pitch in. In fact, we actually just today had cPanel pick up one of the,

actually the high-end perk, and they all should be joining our advisory board as a result of that, which is great. And that's another part of this, right, is it's not just us looking for you to fund what we're doing, but there are two perk levels, which are really aimed at people becoming more involved.

So one of them is the backstage pass. It's for individuals. And the idea is that you get access to kind of the day-to-day ongoing what we're doing. I mean, we do it all in the open, but this is a bit more than that. And you will be looked to back. So we really hope our dedicated users pick that one up, and a number already have. And then we've got the advisory committee,

which is really aimed at large organizations that use Roundcube as part of their business. CPanel fits that perfectly. And it's an advisory committee that, as one does, you look for sage advice and wisdom from those who rely on you. So this is we're trying to make this a full kind of virtuous circle kind of thing. I see one potential flaw with all of this. One huge flaw, Aaron. I don't know if you've noticed it kind of stands out like a sore thumb underneath your promo video says Aaron Sigo.

Zero Facebook friends. It's very sad sad it's just like Aaron has no friends and I realize probably you don't have a Facebook profile but that's bad marketing I feel like that's kind of sad that's right feel sad about me all right so just along the same line of questioning about the Snowden stuff um what about the popular demand for things like integration of GPG and things like that? Do you see a place for features like that in a fundraiser like this, or is that something outside of that or something down the road? What are your thoughts? So all of those stretch goals, you know, the chatter, the organizer, yada, yada, yada, those are actually all applications that will be added to Roundcube next when it's all done.

How fast we get there really relies on the kind of support we see. And amongst all that, GPG support is actually on the roadmap. It's a bit further down the roadmap because we want to be able to use their calendar first before they can use GPG to encrypt it. So there's a certainG to encrypt it. So there's a certain order to the madness there. But that's already something that's on our roadmap. In addition to that, so I mean, this is also what's kind of exciting to me,

and we announced this at the CoLab Summit as a CoLab initiative in general, but RoundCube is also part of this, where we feel that we've done a really good job with asynchronous communication, mail, calendaring, yada, yada, yada. And one of the things that we're working on really hard this year to bring to the Colab side and we'll be putting into Roundcube next as well is the synchronous side of it. So that's things like IM, instant messaging, which you'll be using Jabber for,

WebRTC video chat. Oh. Yeah, the whole deal, as well as hold onto your seats, collaborative editing. Oh, oh, oh. So this is why we actually had both WebODF and LibreOffice at the CoLab Summit. In fact, I have a handy little gif of one of the lead ODF developers and Michael Meeks

sitting down together and smiling over some beers after dinner. So, yeah, this is something we take very seriously. Oh, this makes me very happy. So these are all stretch goals that we have that we'd love to hit with the RoundCube Next. And we have a roadmap that goes all the way through this. all the way through this. And so I suppose this is, if this happens,

then you have Colab, something that's becoming more and more relevant, really, to the open source world, especially, again, post-Snowden, not to overuse it, but it's true, and you would have a truly first-class mail client. That's, I mean, at the end of the day, that's what we'd be accomplishing here, is we would be integrating the best in webmail with the

best of open-source groupware collaboration. Yeah, I mean, if you look at it, whenever we talk to people about Colab these days, in their minds they often go in one of two routes. One is compared to Exchange, on the one hand,

and on the other hand it is compared to Exchange on the one hand. And on the other hand, it is compared to Office 365 or Google Apps. And so we realized that the future is in this integrated online services kind of area where we can offer that full range of messaging and document editing on top of all those other things. And there's people in the channel going, but we all want GPG. And yes, it will come. One thing is that we want to do it right. There's a lot of people selling snake oil out there right now saying things like, oh,

we encrypt it on our server. I know of one group that's doing that actually well, but they only do it with email. But there are others who are saying, yes, we encrypt it, but they hold all the keys, which makes it almost useless. Doing this right is non-trivial. And one thing that we commit to within Colab and Roundcube is when we do something, we try and do it right or not at all. So we will get to to gpg um support for

sure it's like i said it's on our roadmap um and we're committed to doing it properly uh so uh it's uh it's over on indiegogo right now uh indiegogo round cube next is what you'd want to search for when you get over there we'll have a link in the show notes as well so if i wanted to get started with colab aaron um you know, just maybe for an on-premises installation or something like that, what would be a good spot to check that out? How do I get started? Is there a distro that comes preloaded? Is it

just easier to just set something up and install it? Go hosted? What's my best option there? Yeah, so if you go to colab.org, there is documentation. As you were talking about earlier, documentation is awesome. We've got pretty extensive documentation for many distributions, especially the more popular ones.

It is add a repository, run your package manager's foo of choice, and you get the packages put in. And there's a small post-installation routine that you run to put in, okay, what is your domain name that you want, et cetera. So that's really the easiest way. Personally, when I'm trying out a new version, I fire up a VM on my machine and install it there. So that will get you the community version, which is exactly the same as the enterprise version. There is some version drift between the two of same as the enterprise version. There is some version drift between the two of them depending on release dates. But we're not open core, we

hold nothing back. If you get the community version, you actually get a very good idea of what the enterprise version gives you. And by not open core, you mean you're not just the core is open, everything is open. We only do free software. It's an ethical position for us as a company. So it's kind of like the red hat thing, and that's all we do, no matter what. So that would be the way to go. Go to collab.org. Check that out.

We just released 3.4 recently-ish, and Collab Enterprise 14 is based on that as well. So that was not so long ago um so we've got some really fresh good stuff there um yeah and you've got the usual slate of irc channels and uh mailing lists and whatnot very cool aaron well uh anything else you want to touch on before we uh bump along and i was thinking if you want to stick around for the rest of the show uh uh we could do a we could discuss more of the GPG stuff. Rotten, you wanted to ask about the Road Warrior. Go ahead and fire that off before we wrap up.

Yeah, I couldn't find a description of what that stretch goal meant, so I was just wondering what does Road Warrior entail? Yeah, see, we're teasing you. We will actually explain what all the stretch goals are over the next week. So as a way just to kind of continue that communication. So, yeah, the road warrior is actually the collaborative editing. He's the guy who's on the road and he needs to edit documents while he's going. Cool.

So that's a good pick on that one. Yeah, before we go on, two really cool things, I think. One, you mentioned Docker earlier on. Yeah. One of the things Docker earlier on. Yeah. One of the things we're doing in talking about deployment is we're actively working and coming to a near conclusion of the process of Dockerizing the entire thing. Interesting.

So that you'll be able to run, I mean, Colab is a swarm of microservices, really, right? Yeah. We have an LDAP server, IMAP server, SMTV, blah, blah, blah, blah. Each of those goes into its own Docker container. So you can install them all in a single VM or machine, or you can split them up one on each machine, set up fallbacks between the different services, et cetera.

And Docker is going to make that, we think, a lot easier. So that's one thing we're doing that's really cool. Another really fun and cool thing that we're doing, well, I think it's fun and cool because it's ironic and funny, Another really fun and cool thing that we're doing, well, I think it's fun and cool because it's ironic and funny, is in two weeks at the Microsoft Platinum-sponsored Plugfest event in southern Spain, we will be demoing Mappy, extended Mappy, with Colab, which means you'll be able to plug in the old crappy Outlook directly into it. No. And it'll just go. So an Outlook will just what?

Think it's talking to an Exchange server? That's right. We're doing that with the OpenChange people, which is why we had the lead OpenChange developer at the Colab Summit. That's huge. That's huge. Being able to say, I mean, the number one thing when I went into an office and talked about Zimbra, the first question was, what's the Outlook story? Every single time. People that have worked in Outlook are like, I know guys that they literally spend their entire workflow inside frickin' Outlook.

They're meeting hounds. And they have to have it. That's going to be huge, Aaron. Yeah. And I mean, we were a bit concerned because, you know, from the free software perspective, Zarafa was pretty much the only ones who had this and they've dropped support for it. So we will become the only truly free software group or solution out there with this. And we're really happy to work with the open change people to make that happen. So yeah. And for the really big institutions, they should come talk to us about things like boring things,

like data loss prevention and audit trails, which we're also bringing online, but probably not as interesting to your audience here, but for the corporate audience. But necessary, yes. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Cool.

Wow. That is really exciting. And audit trails, I can tell you, in industries I worked in before, that is also sometimes an essential feature, and one that lacks in most software packages right now, even when the ones that tout their audit trail functionality. Yeah. Tell us about it. Auditing, audit trails and data loss prevention means we keep an extra copy of your email somewhere on a disk. Yeah, we got really good logs that you can go through. All right, cool. Well, that is really exciting.

And Aaron, you are – I know it's – what time is it where you're at right now? It's late, right? It's like 11? Yeah. No, it's after midnight. Okay. So you are free to leave if you want to go crash or welcome to stay with us. We're going to get the pulse from the Mumble Room on their reactions to Ubuntu 15.04 in just a moment.

So that's what we're going to shift gears. And, of course, if you want to stick around and sort of just do freestyle Q&A after the show, you're also welcome because I'm sure people have lots of questions. I wanted, though, because we haven't – because of LinuxFest Northwest, we didn't normally dedicate time like we would to review Ubuntu 15.04 outright. And so I wanted to start the process here on the show to kind of start to make up for that and get the MumbleRoom's reaction. Because I actually have limited experience with 15.04 at this point. I've been using Ubuntu Mate. I do have a few thoughts and I have a few observations and some funny reactions that I've noticed in the reviews. Plus 15.10 is coming up. But first, got to thank our friends over at Ting.

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jelly. But you can get in on Ting's wireless plan. They've got a bunch of great devices. They're unlocked. You own them outright. You can get a $9 GSM SIM card and put in any device that supports SIMs, or you can get a device directly from Ting. They've got everything from really great value feature phones up to the highest end smartphones linux.ting.com go there to support this show linux.ting.com also gets you a 25 discount off one of those devices i just mentioned if you have a ting compatible device and you probably do because they have a

huge gsm network now and a huge CDMA network, if you have one of those devices that works on those networks, that $25 will go to a service credit. That service credit will very likely pay for more than your first month. That's how great Ting is. $25 will probably pay for more than your first month. It did mine. Even if you're a super crazy talker or something, I don't know. I don't know.

I don't know. I'm not judging, but I'm just saying, geez, really? That's kind of ridiculous. Get Skype. No, I'm kidding. No, really, but it will seriously... Plus, they have an early termination relief program, too, if you've got a contract right now. And then it really starts adding up. Linux.ting.com

and a huge thank you to Ting for sponsoring the Linux Unplugged program. All right, so, Mumble Room, anybody want to go first with their reactions? You know what, actually, I'd like to ask Wimpy, since he shipped a distro based on it, and then the other people can fill in, but Wimpy, if you don't mind,

what are your initial reactions to the Ubuntu 15.04 release, either from more of a lower-end perspective or from a perspective of the user side? Well, from my own point of view um i really like the 1504 release um i in some respects i prefer it to the 1404 release and this is really from an ubuntu mate perspective and that's because you will have noticed that debbie and jesse released a few days after 1504 so consequently a lot of the work that i've been doing in debbie and which has flowed into ubuntu was done as part of the debbie and lts strategy so it's kind of a shame the one drawback of 1504 is it's only got

that nine month support window because in terms of amate implementation it's really solid yeah that's exactly where i'm at right now so it's going to be a shame to see that one you know uh go away in nine months time yeah but i think for ubuntu as a whole um on the desktop there were some improvements in Stockabun too, but it's really the under-the-covers stuff that's really evolved in 1504. So SystemD, for example, is one area where there's been change. And then in the server side of things with things like Snappy and Juju and Mass, there's been some big advancements.

So I think it's actually quite an important stepping stone release to where Chronicle want to get to. Let me pick one thing out that you mentioned there, and maybe I could rope Popey in here, because according to the register, everything's fine except for Ubuntu is now full of Systemd. Listen to this. The initial review line starts, SystemD is here.

It's arrived in Vivid, the latest just-released distro of Ubuntu 15.04. Essentially, Popey, apparently, Canonical has condemned us all to SystemD now. How are you feeling about that? So the day that I switched from Upstart to SystemD was an ultimately uneventful day. I followed you on Google+, I remember.

As it should be. It was a package update, basically, right? Right, and I switched back the other way and then switched forward again. And actually, in 1504, if you really, really want to, you can use Upstart. You don't have to use SystemD. So it's not compulsory to use systemd so you know it's

it's not compulsory to use systemd if you're that way inclined i did not expect the switch to happen so soon so in terms of like full switchover is there still some sort of like compatibility happening or like or is everything truly like systemd scripts and it's all 100 done well the desktop is but the phone isn't so the phone is still using upstart for user sessions so that will switch probably in 1510 but there's a whole bunch of stuff that that needs to happen for that for that to you know actually work um but yeah we did it for 1504 that'll happen for 1510, no doubt. Also, in 1504, upstart's still used for X sessions as well. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's not too surprising, I suppose.

So there is a little upstart still in there for some things. But it boots unbelievably fast. Unbelievably 1504 boots fast. That was one of my initial impressions. In fact, Wimpy, you nailed it when you said, I wish 1504 was going to stick around longer because I like it a little bit better than 1404. I like it a lot better than 1404, actually. Yeah, I do.

It's the system that I'm installing on all my stuff now. I've kicked the LTS thing into touch, 1504. So are you just going to replace it later then? Well, for those machines that have already got installed, just an upgrade. And for those that I'm installing installed just an upgrade um and for those that i'm installing fresh just going straight to 1504 uh anybody else in the mumble room want to jump in with their impressions uh matt if you have any impressions on 1504 uh uh feel free you know i'm always one of those people tends to like hold off until it's been out until just to the point

where the next release is and then i'm popping into the new one i'm still on lts's on both my boxes it works for you. It works for you. Yeah, it works for me. But the speed thing has piqued my interest because that does sound appealing because some of the machines I use I do like to turn off and have them boot up reasonably quickly. So that's cool. I like that. So you know what you ought to do then, Matt?

You ought to hang out and wait for 1510. I mean, I hate the way this happens. I hate that they just got out and now we're talking about 1510, but we've gotten the code name for Ubuntu 1510. I mean, I hate the way this happens. I hate that they just got out and now we're talking about 1510, but we've gotten the code name for Ubuntu 1510. It's going to be called Willy Werewolf, which is kind of silly. What? Wiley. Yeah, I read about this.

Wiley, sorry, Wiley, yes, Wiley. Willy was a joke I was making earlier, totally unrelated, and it got stuck in my head. Wiley Werewolf, because Wiley is supposed to be somebody who's wise and crafty right so uh yes uh and i with an october uh time a frame and uh this the scuttlebutt is um uh to focus on the desktop what does that mean poppy so there's uh the usual you know desktop release in10, which will have all the usual updates. And probably I'd imagine the new kernel with live kernel patching without having to reboot.

That'll be nice. And all the usual updates, you know, Firefox, LibreOffice and all that. But also a few other interesting things as well. I feel like you're burying the awkward teenage lead, though. And that is this is where we begin to see, the converged desktop come together right this is right isn't this bits of it yeah i mean there'll be the i mean we've already got the unity next iso which we've had for for months but then we're going to integrate snappy into that here's what i'm trying to get at yeah here's what i'm trying to get at yeah here's

what i'm trying to get at is uh i hear it's a phone tell me what you want to talk about because you're telling me nothing you're saying you're saying i'm saying it's a focus on the desktop i'm reading it's a focus on the desktop from several news outlets but then when i ask what's going to happen on the desktop i hear snappy packages and i hear a live patching kernel which are awesome but they're not desktop. I'm just curious. I don't care. It seems like the focus is on desktop. I'd be kind of interested to see where that direction goes

because I have been one of these people who are really curious where Canonical is going to take it eventually. And I know that it's more like the 16 series before we're going to see Unity 8 probably be default and things like that, but, man, I'm just curious. So I don't know if you were listening to Mark's... I haven i haven't heard that yet uh well maybe you should have i plan to no he mentioned that 2015 there'll be a convergence device yes uh before the end of the year so in fact i have i did pull the quote i did manage i did manage to grab that he said i would like to

announce that we're going to ship a device this year with a manufacturer that will fit in your pocket and be a phone and give you a desktop experience. That PC Pocket experience is real on Ubuntu. So am I to interpret that as sort of the focus on the desktop is the beginning of things to make that device possible towards later of the year?

Yeah, it kind of goes from both directions. So from the desktop moving towards Snappy and also from the. So from the desktop, you know, moving towards Snappy, and also from the phone moving towards the desktop. So yeah, having a converged device by 1510, yeah. You know what I really wanted is I wanted you to say, Ubuntu Teen Wolf is going to focus on a brand new software center. That's what I wanted you to say, software center.

That's what I wanted, follow me. But I know it's not going to happen. It's okay, I got to wait till you guys are all done, because then I'm sure you're going to have to write it in whatever is fancy for click packages. Well, no, it already exists. On the phone. The click store already exists on the phone and on the

Unity Next desktop. You can open the click store on the desktop right now. I guess so. And I guess apps work either way. But do you see that eventually becoming like a full-on replacement to the software centers? Like all of the applications that I would get from the software. But do you see that eventually becoming like a full-on replacement to the software centers? Like all of the applications that I would get from the software center would be in there too?

Yep, exactly. Oh, okay. The Snappy store will be the place where you get apps. And you could install a separate store on there as well. So eventually then Ubuntu software center would probably just kind of go away.

Yep. Yeah, okay. By God, we need it, Popey. Save us. It was actually funny. I looked at the change log for Software Center, and there was one change back in January this year. And then the last change to Software Center was April the previous year. So, yeah, Software Center hasn't had a huge amount of love recently.

But it makes sense if you're moving to something new, I guess. So any other thoughts on 1504 before we wrap up? So the weird thing for me is I've been running 1504 for months. Sure, yeah. Because I upgrade early and I'm running it as my daily machine. So on release day, I'm like, all right, yeah, everyone else is catching up. Yeah, I know. Because when I'm usually going to do a review,

I try to run it for quite a while before the review. So sometimes I'll start sort of late beta RC just to kind of start to get a feel for it. And so it kind of does take away a little bit of the excitement on release day. It's like, yeah, okay. What release day usually means for me is I get a few more package updates. That's usually what release day? He's like, yeah, okay. What release day usually means for me is I get a few more package updates.

That's usually what release day means. But overall, it seems to be reviewed pretty well. That register piece, I think, was a bit tongue-in-cheek about the systemd stuff because it's really been a non-story. And it seems to be a pretty positive reaction overall. The meta review would be it's good. Not too many changes, but it's still good. And I think that's not a bad place to be.

There's actually a cool feature that the upstart syntax still works, and when you activate it, it kind of sends a script through systemd. Neat. Corky, you wanted to give Kubuntu some airtime? I'm not a user, but I've been using Plasma 5 recently on Arch, and isn't it 1504 is the first to do default Plasma 5 recently on Arch, and isn't it, 1504 is the first to do default Plasma 5, and from initial reviews, it's just fantastic for a first-time default desktop environment.

That is great. I have also been playing with Plasma 5.3 over the weekend. I found it to be a little buggy, but nice. And... I've only seen good feedback about Plasma 5 in 1504. So here's the... So I'm using 5.3, but I'm doing it under a high DPI display, which makes it a little trickier because KDE doesn't quite...

So what you do is you go scale up your icons and you go scale up the text DPI, and you go tweak about four or five spots in KDE, and it's actually pretty darn nice on high DPI. And the Breeze theme with Plasma and the Breeze icons and all of that stuff look really sharp. The Plasma desktop, I think 5. Now, they're shipping 5.2 in Kubuntu 1504. That's a really good release.

I think 5.3 may be slightly buggier, but also 5.3 introduces a lot of nice new features for laptops. And the new Media Center demo's in there. Yeah, you're right. Kubuntu 1504 is a fantastic release and if you've been looking for a well-implemented Plasma desktop, sounds like that

could be a really good one. And if you're on Arch, 5.3 recently hit the repos and it's really nice. Only reason I went back to GNOME is I started having sound problems again. And what happens under 5.3 is after I get a notification on the desktop, I get another notification immediately after that saying, I have changed the sound device to Intel HDMI out. Would you like to revert? And I have to click click revert and then it goes back to my uh intel uh intel standard h whatever it is hd audio whatever it is and then it happens in a few minutes later

so i just i i between that and a few other things i just went back to gnome but it's really really good ww you had something you wanted to add on Plasma. Yeah, I had nothing but issues with Plasma 5.2 on my Intel laptop with NVIDIA. Once I went from the Novo driver to a NVIDIA driver, I've had

like, I need to track down this issue or see if others are having it. I went to rebooting after two minutes after I hit reboot on the menu. It would just finally pop up. I eventually went

Plasma 5.3 with the back ports, and that works out way better for me. I still think there's some things that need to be polished out, though. We had a meetup back in October. It was a while ago.

Where producer Eric and I met up with some folks from the KDE project in Seattle. And they said, yeah, you know, we're really excited about Plasma 5, but the one that we think is going to be ready for everybody is Plasma 5.3. When Plasma 5.3 ships, start telling your listeners to install it. Because we think that's going to be the one.

We'll have a lot of our art stuff done in that one and all this kind of stuff. And I got to say, it's very nice. It feels, it has right now, this might seem a little brutal, but I had the sensation that it feels like a race car, like a really high-end race car, kit car. Really powerful, crazy fast, the best compositor.

Like, I don't know what it is, guys, but even when I'm typing in frickin' console, the way the text appears in the console feels slicker than the way it does under GNOME Terminal. And I can't even, like, I tried it, and then I logged out and went to GNOME Terminal, I brought it, I'm like, what are they doing differently? And for some reason, it feels smoother under KDE. Like, it is a slick, fast, smooth experience that every now and then completely falls apart on me. Like, I probably had the Plasma desktop crash on me six or seven times. And most of the times, it's whenever I'm messing around with widgets. But I don't even have to be trying a widget.

Like, if I can just right-click on the desktop, unlock widgets, add widget, scroll through the widget list, close it, Plasma crashes. Oh, okay. Like that kind of stuff. And I'll give it this. It bounces right back. It restarts and everything. I don't lose anything. It's not really any big consequence.

It's just annoying. Or my sound constantly changing is annoying. And I feel like it's just a little rough still. But if you are the type of person who likes that kind of experience, that sort of sports car kit experience, it is great. It is in a good spot right now. And it's looking better than ever too, which I'm really pleased with. So, yeah, there you're quirky. There's your Kubuntu airtime.

I don't talk about it a lot because I don't use it. But I did happen to run Plasma over the weekend. And I walked away with those observations. All right, guys. I think we're all done. I think we had a lot to cover. Aaron, thanks so much for joining us. If you'd like, we're going to do a little post-show in just a bit. You can stick around and chat with us. Thank you very much, sir.

And we'd love to have you join us out there live. I mean you, listener, you. Join our virtual lug. Just go over to jblive.tv. We do this show on Tuesdays at 2 p.m. Pacific. Just go over to jblive.tv. We do this show on Tuesdays at 2 p.m. Pacific. You can go to jupiterbroadcasting.com slash calendar to get that converted over to your local time. And then you can hang out in our chat room or our

mumble room and talk with us as we do the show. Matt, is there anything you want to plug or mention before we get out of here today? Nothing too pressing, however. If you want to keep up with the latest stuff that we have going, including How to Linux, which I receive emails on a daily basis about. You can check me out at MattHartley.com, and you can hit me up with contacts. You can subscribe to the email alerts, which will tell you when things like HowToLinux come out.

Yeah. Yeah, check that out. MattHartley.com. I'm excited to hear that people are pumped about HowToLinux. Oh, you should see my inbox. Great. Don't forget, you can fill our inbox, too. Go to jupyterbroadcasting.com slash contact.

Choose Linux Unplugged from the drop-down. Or maybe even better, join our subreddit, linuxactionshow.reddit.com. Makes this show better. Community feedback, stories, topics, votes, all that stuff is great. I'd love to see you live, jblive.tv. All right, everybody. Thanks so much for tuning in to this week's episode of Linux Unplugged. See you right back here next Tuesday! Okay, we have just a little titles business to take care of before we get out of here.

JBTitles.com. Everybody go over there and vote. Or you can still bank suggest. You'll still have probably a chance to get your title in, too. Aaron, it's good to catch up with you. I don't think we've talked since you joined CoLab. No, I don't think we have.

When I saw that move, I thought, oh, that's a good one. That's a good place to go. And man, the timing and all of that, that was crazy. We could have worked out a little bit better. Yeah, I know mean there's so much to be done in this space and yeah i know so many people involved with it already it was a pretty easy transition and yeah lots to keep me busy and excited so uh blame the chat room

is our third position title right now jb titles bang suggest.com. Everybody, bye. So, Aaron, you mentioned open clients for Colab. I haven't looked at Colab. I'm very sorry. You mentioned there's clients on multiple platforms. Are you talking about, like, third-party clients, or are they first-party clients that you guys have developed? They're second-party clients. I don't know what that would mean.

But, yeah, no, we've got Kontakt, which we actually do enterprise support for on Windows as well as Linux. On Mac, we rely on Apple's own apps just because they work really well. And from our feedback, that's what mac people prefer to use so we support web dev web cal or cal dev blah blah blah and all of that stuff is supported as first class citizens in the mac world and then on the mobile on the mobile side it's mostly active sync um with on yeah well some platforms. We do recommend on Android using things like DavDroid because that gives a slightly more privacy-respecting experience.

So it's mostly whatever app the user is familiar with already or whatever app ships with the platform already can connect and you provide instructions for connecting to your back end, right? Yeah, with the exception of contact on Windows and Linux. And what's used on Android? ActiveSync on Android? So on Android, our recommended mix is DavDroid plus K9 Mail. And that gives you access to everything, your contacts, your calendars,

your email, et cetera. But if you don't go that road or you can't go that road for some reason or you just want to stick with what Android comes with, then ActiveSync also works just fine. I have devices where I have one or the other, so I've tried both, and yeah, they work. ActiveSync is cool. Thank you. No, you don't seem like you're going to break it any second. Okay, good. Because I feel like maybe my blood pressure is high right now and I left my watch upstairs so I can't take my heart rate.

But I just tell you I literally have an A and B comparison. Now I know – so here's what I want to admit to right up front before I go any further into this discussion. So here's what I want to admit to right up front before I go any further into this discussion. This only applies to me, and because of my use case scenario where I'm in front of these two computers for an extended period of time every single day except for Saturdays, I just think maybe this only applies to me. Okay? I don't even know if it applies to anybody else in the entire freaking universe. I'm so special. But here, because I'm such a special unicorn, here is what I have observed.

The stable releases of Linux, their updates break everything just as much as my rolling release. No, way more, way more. And you know what? I'm not even going to like couch it. The rolling release breaks way less than the Ubuntu 14.04. And here's what happens. About once a month, I install updates. Now, I cannot recall how long this has been on Ubuntu 14.04,

but we're going on like six months probably, a little more. Here's what I have observed. About once a month, I install updates. And if you have watched the jblive.tv stream and we're not live, you may have noticed we no longer have videos playing. We instead are rebroadcasting our audio stream. Why, you might ask? Because an update to Ubuntu 14.04 broke our capability to play video and same stereo MP3 audio over the HDMI interface, and we can no longer do that because an update on Ubuntu 14.04 broke that.

So now our live stream just is a replay of our audio stream. And now today, I did an update yesterday, I noticed today all of the audio interface, one of the audio interfaces fails to even show up. I had to completely power cycle the machine, unplug the device, power cycle the machine back up, plug the USB device in. And then, of course, I had to go back in and choose all of my audio inputs, readjust all of their levels. And all I did was install updates. The last time I did this, we lost an audio device. The time before that, our video driver got messed up, and it's an Intel video card. Then, almost on a day-by-day basis,

maybe about once a week when I'm busy, I update the Archbox running on my System76 Bonobo. One is an Intel NUC. One is a System76 Bonobo. Both make great Linux machines. It's not a hardware thing, okay? You can take hardware out of this because it's about as vanilla as it gets. The Bonobo running Arch, getting updates on a rolling release, never fails. I cannot do a show

without this Bonobo. It drives all of the visuals. It drives all of the sounds. I can't show a story in a video without this Bonobo. It is literally one of the most, besides the machine that actually records the video, it is the most important machine in the studio. And it runs Arch Linux rolling. And it breaks the least. The Ubuntu machines and the Macs break more than the Archbox does. And I'm not doing anything special. So I don't get why everybody always gets on my case about how awful rolling is when in my experience here, I tell you the systems that are supposed to be long-term support seem to break just as much as or more.

And I'm saying just as much because honestly, I think everybody's going to attack me. But I think they break even more, but I'll say they break just as well as the rolling release machines do. break just as well as the rolling release machines do. So what I do not understand is the constant dogpiling when I go out there and say, actually, I don't think rolling is all that bad. Or like when I wanted to switch Angela to a machine and it was going to be rolling, the dogpile, oh, don't do rolling, don't do rolling, everything's all right. Well, actually, my rolling machines break less than my stable machines. So how do you guys explain this total dichotomy that I seem to be witnessing?

I apparently have like jumped through a portal and I am now a slider in an alternative version of Earth where rolling releases are more stable and long term supports are more disastrous. And yet nobody else is in the same universe with me. I'm over there all by myself. It's always like that, Chris. me i'm over there all by myself it's always like that gris because you know the rolling release distros have more practice in terms of software updates so they can do it a lot more but they found all the problems already the ones that do it every once in a while like ubuntu they tend to just you know run into problems or override config files or corner cases that no one cares about. Rolling has a lot more practice

with updating packages all the time. That seems pretty reasonable. That seems like a reasonable explanation as to why. And you know, I always do rolling nowadays. Slackware is where everything should be. Okay, well here was my theory, Heavens, and this is what I everything should be just you know okay well here was my theory heavens and this is what i wanted to bounce off you what if software has gotten better and so it's now not as hazardous to go to the next version as it used to be is that possible like like linux version 2

was a completely different beast than linux version 4 is now and you know it's a much more mature product now and so is the nvidia driver, you know, it's a much more mature product now. And so is the NVIDIA driver. And so is GNOME 3, much, much more mature, right? So is Chrome and Firefox and GTK. And all of these things in the stack now are just much more mature products. Yeah, but also when you do coding, right, you usually kind of have a backwards compatibility thing with your previous version. So if a version is only increasing or incrementing by one major version each time as a rolling distro versus Ubuntu's maybe skipping two or three versions at a time, they don't have the backwards compatibility or at least the code in order to say, oh yeah, last release we done this. We got to change the data structure

this way. Okay, so here's the other thing that kind of I don't get about the, now I know I think I eventually did get my kernel updated here, so let me double check real quick. So I'll do a uname here. I'm not an RPM fan at all. Okay, no, never mind. So even though I've done a dist upgrade, so I'm on

Ubuntu 14.04 and it ships with kernel 3. mind. So even though I've done a dist upgrade, so I'm on Ubuntu 14.04, and it ships with kernel 3.13.0. Now, I think there is a way to update that, but I'm in Ubuntu Mate. I've done all the... I've done app get update. I've done dist upgrades. I'm on kernel 3.13. Now, this is generally considered not, like, the best kernel of the 3 series, right?

This is considered one of the worse kernels in terms of performance and other things like that. So it's interesting that they chose this dish. Now, maybe they've patched it in some way I'm not aware of, but when I did that choice, I was like, huh,

it seems like, man, maybe they had an off release and they just happened to land on a bad kernel. And then 1504 comes out and the kernel they ship with it has that butter FS problem that I ran into. Like they shipped it with a version that still has the butter FS lockup issue.

And I, and again, I'm like, what are they doing? Like, aren't they supposed to be curating the best kernel? Like they shipped it with a version that still has the Butterfest lockup issue. And again, I'm like, what are they doing? Like aren't they supposed to be curating the best kernel? Like they picked a bad kernel. Like if I was rolling my own distro, I never would have shipped that kernel. And maybe again, maybe they fixed it.

Maybe they patched it. I don't know. But every time I see it, I go, huh, it seems like they're supposed to be doing a really good choice here. And it seems like they've almost just thrown a dart on the board on the current kernel. Like, well, we're going to release around this time. So boom, we'll go with that kernel. And they just, that's all the, that's all the thought that goes into it. Not like, well, this kernel is known to have issues with lots of butterFS instances where you can't mount the root file system. Like, you know, like that didn't, that didn't seem to be like maybe a major issue. And oh yeah, by the way, it only

seems to hit like after three to five weeks of being used. So we'll have a whole bunch of people at 1504 that all of a sudden hit this. Like, that was not part of the discussion, apparently. Or maybe it was, and they fixed it, but it was never noted. I don't know. So, again, with rolling, this is an issue I don't run into.

It just, if it, like, I had that kernel, and then it pretty quickly gets replaced with the next kernel. But now, here on this Mate box, I'm on kernel 3.13 still, which is a clunker. I've got a Mate install, I'm on kernel 3.13 still, which is a clunker. I've got a Linux Mint install for a friend of mine,

and their little Linux kernel version manager is, I guess, the best thing you can get close to that. But if I ever, ever run Ubuntu, I always use the daily builds, the kernels from their FTP server. Just the actual daily current builds of current kernels. I never use what's in Ubuntu's repositories. Ever.

Really? I don't know. That seems like you're asking for it, but I don't know. Well, I run completely their daily.deb files. Screw running the kernels that they put on the refills. You do daily? You do a daily kernel? Yeah, they build kernels daily on their site.

I can find the link for it. Why do you want a daily kernel, though? It's always the best of the best. All right. Bugs that were yesterday aren't a bug now. No, I'm not in a bad mood. What I'm trying to put together in my head is what appears to be my practical experience. And, you know, it's not just like these two machines either.

I've got – here in the studio, we have one, two, three, four computers that are running Arch. Well, I guess – yeah, I'm counting – I guess let's just count one of the VMs right now because we're just really using one of them heavily. And that's, you know, and then I have at my house two machines running Arch, and then I have a DigitalOcean droplet running Arch, and I have another DigitalOcean droplet running Arch that just runs Minecraft, doesn't really do anything.

And all of these, I sort of, none of them are updated at any of the same intervals. Some of them are updated very frequently. Some of them are updated like once every three months, maybe, like the VMs. And none of them exhibit issues like this. And I'm not like doing anything all that savvy. Really, I'm just doing the updates and I'm watching if there's an error, which in fact, there's so infrequently errors that I have to be mindful about watching for it because, you know, it is that one time you relax that it will make a mistake and you can check the news, you can check the forms. So here is what here's my point. I'm rambling.

My point is, in my experience, it really does not seem to be one is more dangerous than the other. They both seem to need equal amounts of lots of love and attention when you're doing updates. And I feel like there is a little bit of techno fear in the community about rolling. I think people are inherently a little scared of software. And I think also those of these are the same people who also sort of revere software developers as sort of unique creators that are sort of a step above everybody else and not just people who have a talent in a specific area. I think it kind of plays into that same kind of culture. And that culture also bothers me because I think it sort of creates like these egos that don't need to exist. Anyways, I'm again rambling. I think all of these things come together where it feels like I'm

pushing up against something that is a bit of a bias. And it's not like it's really, it's a first world bias. It's not like it's that important, but it bothers me. I feel like it's not an injustice, but close to it. And so I feel like I should be rallied to the cause to defend a truth out there that people are ignoring. I don't know why I feel that way about this particular matter, but I do. And I think part of the reason is, is because I was 100% on the other end of the spectrum at one point. I was the Enterprise Linux guy. I was Seuss Enterprise Linux guy and Red Hat Enterprise Linux guy. I tried Gen 2 for a while and I thought it was amazing. And I swung way, way back to Enterprise and I did FreeBSD and I did the

Enterprise distros for a little while. And then I went to Ubuntu. And you guys know the arc of that in the show. I was very much an Ubuntu guy on the show. I very, very hand very readily handily dismissed Arch. And it's been a transition for me. And now I'm at the other end of the transition. I'm looking back and I'm going, okay, I think I made a mistake. And I think I'm seeing the same mistake other people are making. And I'm not trying to preach some sort of gospel, but I'm just trying to open up the way people look at software. Because if you're into Linux and you're into this kind of stuff, it's very satisfying and it's very fun to watch. And I don't think it deserves sort of the constant criticism it seems to receive. And I'm a little ashamed that my show has become one of the platforms to perpetuate that criticism. I think there is a space to criticize. I think it's totally worth criticizing because there are risks because new software inherently can have regressions or flaws. So there's totally a space for debate about it.

I'm not trying to say there isn't. But at the same time, I don't think we should shame software just because it's rolling. And I kind of regret that that's the direction the conversation went now that I think about it when it came in regards because it's rolling. And I kind of regret that that's the direction the conversation went now that I think about it, when it came in regards to Angela's computer. There is a direct analogy to newsfeeds or news that evolves

throughout time. After a news story breaks, it evolves and changes and it gets more clear. That's exactly how a rolling update distro is like. You subscribe to the newsfeed, but the news feed is just packages. You get the newest news every day, and you're up to date, and you're not left behind in the dust. That's very interesting.

That is a very interesting analogy. You're right. It's almost like a newspaper is a capture of the headlines in the state when they're sort of new and fresh. But online news, and especially like what we do here in this show, is really – It's like we collect – it's a longer analysis after some time has evolved. And you're right. It's more – the story is more clear. That is very interesting.

And that's sort of like what it is, right, in a weird way in software. It becomes better and what the software developers are going for becomes more refined yeah they don't have much time to hide bad problems or let's say oopsies that they make they have to live up and be accountable for what they do that's what i like being daily or as up-to-date as i possibly can