Lions Led By Donkeys Podcast - Episode 40 - The Assholes of Holocaust Denial

Episode Date: February 25, 2019

On this episode Nick and Joe dive into the insane world of Holocaust Denial and why these people shouldn't be debated, they should be attacked. Support the show: https://www.patreon.com/lionsledbydonkeys Buy some merchandise: https://teespring.com/stores/lions-led-by-donkeys-store Follow us: @lions_by @jkass99 @nickcasm1 Sources: Deborah Lipstadt. Denying the Holocaust. https://www.ushmm.org/antisemitism/holocaust-denial-and-distortion https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/ideology/holocaust-denial https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2917150/

I'm Henry from Fortress on a Hill. We're a leftist veteran podcast that aims to expose the reality of the U.S. military's many wars abroad, the horror that it puts on the people that live in those places, and the damage that military service does to Americans. role giving oversight to the military? Fortress on a Hill aims to change that. Fortressonahill.com or wherever you get your podcast. Now, back to Lions Led by Donkeys. A former leader of the American Nazi Party is running for Congress in Illinois. As the only Republican on the ticket, it looks like he is about to win the primary next month. His name is Arthur Jones. He has never disavowed his Nazi views. Here is what Jones said at a rally in Kentucky last April. And we warn all of you that the language you're about to hear in this segment is offensive.

The white majority are fed up with all of these lying, cheating, feeding, warmongering, child molesting, political pimps and whores of this corrupt and decadent two party, Jew party, queer party system. Arthur Jones, that Republican candidate for Illinois' third district, joins us now. Mr. Jones, it is shocking to hear how vocally and unapologetically racist you are. Are you a Nazi? Well, for the past 15, 20 years, I have not had anything to do with any national socialist organization on a formal basis. But do you call yourself a Nazi? I don't call myself a Nazi. I call myself an American patriot and statesman.

OK, well, let me give our viewers some details about this just so they can decide for themselves. You've been part of anti-Semitic groups since the 1970s. You go to neo-Nazi rallies. We have pictures of you there. You are, we're part of the white people's party. You dress in Nazi garb and you celebrate Hitler's birthday. You're a Nazi.

Hello. Welcome to another episode of the Lions Led by Donkeys podcast. With me in the room today is Nick. Welcome back, sir. I do this. Yeah. So I was really disappointed. Like, I just opened the door five minutes ago

to Girl Scout Cookies. Oh, yeah. And I really wanted to buy Girl Scout Cookies, but it's 2019 and everybody's paying direct deposit and I never have cash. Right. So I couldn't buy any you figured they'd get with the times yeah like why can't i just like paypal my girl scout cookie

dealer like that you're really weird i got my i got your fucking goods tell you yeah let me slide into that paypal mom's in the background like sweetie let, let's go. Get away from the strange man who's drunk in his pajama pants. He stinks. All right. So this episode, we're doing something we've never done before. Let's talk about the Holocaust. I think it was in a party. That's a bad party.

This party sucks. I wasn't even invited, but I had to go. Did we talk about the Holocaust? It was in a Q&A. We didn't talk about it, but it was in the Q&A for five minutes possibly. All right. So more specifically than just talking about the Holocaust, we're talking about Holocaust denial. Yes, and that was in the Q&A.

Yeah. Which is why I've titled this episode The Assholes of Holocaust Denial. Nice. Now, before we actually I've titled this episode The Assholes of Holocaust Denial. Nice. Now, before we actually get into the actual episode, a little disclaimer. I'm not debating Holocaust Denial. No. I'm not going to do it. No.

There's a good reason for that. I'm not going to try to prove any of these people wrong. Because debating and refuting their points means that their argument is worth engaging, which it is not. It's not worth shit. It absolutely is not. It's not worth it. I operate under the idea that I do not debate bad faith actors. There is obviously welts of proof that the Holocaust happened.

Right. We're not here to debate that. of proof that the Holocaust happened. Right. We're not here to debate that. Instead, we're going to mock them for being vile pieces of shit. Cause that's what we do here is we mock this is lions.

Lions. So before we get there, we have to break down the different kinds of Holocaust denial because this comes as no surprise. Anybody who's used to conspiracy theories and stuff like that, there's multiple different shades of this crazy it has its own brackets just breaks off into bullshit the first kind is outright denial that is the holocaust was faked it didn't happen um these are the what i will call the holocaers because anybody who's a truther, you know, they fucking suck. Yeah. Name a kind of truther that we've ever talked about in our conversation who isn't a piece of shit.

9-11 truthers, you suck. School shooting truthers, I hate you. Fucking Jade Helm truthers, I hope you get lupus. Those are the funnest, though. They are. At least they're like mostly at least the Jade Helm truthers are hope you get lupus those are the funnest though they are at least they're like mostly at least the jade helm uh truthers are mostly like harmless yeah except they were you know the governor and shit actors yeah yeah um so this is the idea that the truthers is the idea the whole thing was some kind of false flag uh by the world

controlling jews to gain the world's sympathy to so they could form their own country and to encourage other jews to immigrate to israel at the time was the palestinian mandate um this obviously means that all survivors are liars or paid shills working for a big Israel I don't know and all the confessions at the Nuremberg trials are fake um they're not but you know uh because they're either faked or another thing I saw was they were extracted under torture so they can't be trusted it should be noted that Adolf eichmann was arrested and well was kidnapped slash arrested by the israeli massad in the 60s when he was away hiding in argentina and brought back to israel and he did not just admit to the holocaust being a thing uh he's like oh yeah we planned it from

the fucking top down but here's the paperwork to prove it I really want to know where a lot of these people go, like, just off the rails to go, eh, it's not real. So, I mean, this should come as no surprise to anybody that a lot of it is just anti-Semitism. Oh, yeah, for sure. There's a fair amount of it, which is, like, neo-Nazism, obviously. That should not surprise anybody either. Like, you know, obviously the KKK buys into this shit. All the patriot movement type people that exist now buy into this kind of shit.

But not everybody buys into the outright truther denial phase. You see a lot of the second kind, which was people died, but it wasn't a genocide, which is actually the same kind of denial we see about the Armenian genocide. Right. These are – I'll just call these deniers. That is the final solution to the Jewish question was actually the expulsion of all Jewry from Germany.

And that was originally the plan. So they're actually – that is as truthful as they get. Okay. That was until the von c conference which like they literally put in paperwork that like we're gonna kill all the jews right so their whole thing is uh yeah people died but it was a war people died yeah you know germans were dying too like that kind of shit or it's like um you see this uh but like i said the armenian genocide like they didn't die. It was just a forced migration.

You know, people die when that happens or, you know, Americans and the Native Americans. Right. That wasn't a genocide. It was just a forced march

and then we took away all their food and they died or you see this with- Put them in terrible areas. Right. You see this with Soviet Union people, like people who like

Stalin apologists Oh, yes. about the whole of Domar that, sure, it was a famine, but it wasn't engineered when, you know, there's definitely- Soviet Union people, like people who are like Stalin apologists about the whole of Domar. Sure, it was a famine, but it wasn't engineered when there's definitely – it was an engineered famine in the Holocaust. And this isn't a Holocaust-specific thing, but these guys are bad. Obviously, they all are. So they exist around the world of – it wasions those gas chambers didn't exist uh they were for delousing what yeah um and uh those death camps

all these work camps and concentration camps those were transit camps because remember they're being expelled they had to gather them all in one place oh Oh, yeah, transit? Yeah. Okay. See, these are the type of people where the deniers, they hide remotes for the TV. Assholes. Just doing things to spite people. Pretty much. I changed all the contacts in your phone to superheroes. I actually did that once.

I did that to somebody when they were drunk. It's not a bad thing to do when they're drunk. Why is Superman calling me it was actually it was the first sergeant i've had worse like the dick on my leg oh man i think i'd rather have the context yeah that's fair um and there's there's another kind of the denial that like some like yeah yeah there's their jews died but like the other people didn't because like remember like roma gay people um black people yeah gypsies communists all types of disabled people those those people are all targeted in the holocaust as well uh so you see different shades of the denial um which is patently absurd like there's literally paperwork

that shows like the different kind of badges that they had to wear. So there's different spectrums of the denial crazy. And then there's this weird, the Jews had it coming camp. What? That is, these people totally think the Holocaust happened, but they deserved it. Who said that? It was one of those, the Jews brought it on themselves. How?

This is because the Jewish world agenda forced the Germans to do this. They had no choice. The Germans had to stop international jewelry. You know what? Those bagels and the gold you hold around your neck, you bastards. You got to go with all those banks and stuff or whatever other things they used. Like there's other parts, like there's other parts like there's there's other parts of that one as well but like they have a penchant for saying also like the jews helped during the holocaust like that that they were like in the ss and like you know the jews were

camp functionaries they were you know they're called the sonder command yeah the sonder they didn't have a choice and and normally all this pretty much all the sonder commando were killed as well yeah i think there's a really good book on Sonderkommando. It was one of the five surviving ones. And I believe he was in Auschwitz-Birkenau. He was in Auschwitz. And most Sonderkommando only held a job for about three months, and they were killed. Yeah.

And the Sonderkommando's first job as a Sonderkommando is normally to dispose of his predecessor's corpse. And he survived as a Sonderkommando for three of his predecessor's corpse uh and he survived as some sound recorder for three years which is insane did a good job i guess i don't know i think it's because he was he had a specialty and like the ss oh he wasn't he a doctor no i think he was an engineer or something and they kept him around because like he was useful yeah um but yeah they use that idea like they're uh you know collaborate uh collaborationist and even the state of israel doesn't believe that uh now um there was some mixed feelings about the sonder commando until a couple years after the war when like the the reality of it can like know these guys were victims too yeah um it's it's like um i think they helped with a rebellion yeah they did yeah and auschwitz

too uh auschwitz auschwitz uh auschwitz birkenau is auschwitz too i i flip-flop on the name yeah uh but they staged a rebellion using like smuggled gunpowder it's like one of the things in auschwitz they had the you know the annihilation camps and they had work camps and one of the work camps was uh they made like gunpowder and stuff and they squirreled it away a little by little and i believe they blew up a whole crematory yeah they did uh and they you know they all died but they were they knew they're all gonna die anyway oh yeah um and you see that as a special brand of like anti-semitism um from certain like you you've probably seen this on facebook and i'm sure a lot of our listeners have, and I know I have, where there's that shitty Facebook meme

from all of our weird reactionary boomer friends from the army post that thing about George Soros being an SS camp guard or something. Besides the fact that the dude was like 10 years old at the time. Like they try to sell like, oh, he's like the Jewish Uncle Tom or something, which is absurd. But you see a lot of that for the Jews had it come in camp. I don't have a clever name for them. And here's where I believe the most dangerous of these groups are.

And these are the people that get traction. These aren't the people screaming from the rooftops at like the international Jew is lying so they can extort money for Israel. These aren't these people. These are the revisionists. stort money for Israel. These aren't these people. These are the revisionists.

These are the people who don't try to, they normally don't try to argue the whole narrative. They try to fudge little bits and facts here and there. Like Hitler didn't order it. It just kind of happened. You see that a ton because there is no written orders from Hitler saying, kill all the Jews, signed a Hitler.

Right. Hearts. Smiley face. It doesn't fucking exist big x little o but like he had functionaries that operate under his verbal commands to do so right they have said they have said that um there's proof of that um but that's one of their big arguments is like well that was like a reinhardt hydrix thing um and he did it on his own because he hated jews like these people must completely forget the fact that mine conf was ever written because like he it's in bookstores today yeah yeah it's actually i believe it's now public domain like if the copyright wore out so now

nobody can make money off of it really yeah oh it may have been part of the deals like nobody wants to be the guy who well some people want to be the person that makes money off Mein Kampf. I think I've only seen one person actually publicly buy it. Imagine being the person that goes to Barnes & Noble like, hey, do you guys have Mein Kampf in stock? That's probably the person I saw. Imagine being that guy. I mean, now I get it. Imagine being that guy.

Like, I mean, now I get it. Like, if you study history and you study, you know, the Nazis, you're going to read Mein Kampf because you want to know how Hitler thought. Like, because you don't want to be the person that just thinks he's this tiny mustache twirling insane person. Like, you want to know how he ended up there. I think at that point I'd order on Amazon. Yeah. You get it in a nondescript unlabeled package.

Or you'd fucking pirate it because there's a million pdfs out there so you don't give some weird publisher money um but yeah i mean though these are people that um who bring up i can tell well you know six million jews didn't die in the gas chamber which is true they didn't no um six million jews around it's like 5.7 ish is like the number that people have accepted, but they round up to six million. Right. Has died. No, not all six million were killed in the gas chamber.

That's not an argument, but that's how they get into the conversation. It's not like they use the gas chamber for fucking everything. Right. I mean, there was certain annihilation camps, Auschwitz being the biggest, that I think conservative numbers put at least a million people down in auschwitz oh yeah um but then there's like um entire massacres done in the eastern front uh uh by gunfire of tens of

thousands in a couple of days mass graves yeah they i think they even had like mobile uh yeah this eisen group and death squads they have a mobile they had mobile killing teams they had mobile gas chambers like there's an entire industry of death um so this is some fucked up shit well that that that's why these people are the most dangerous like because like these are the people that end up in rooms surrounded by people and being supported by people who are legitimate. I mean, these are people like, yeah, the Holocaust happened, but it wasn't that bad. Because look at all the shit that Stalin did. Or the Allies killed civilians too.

I hear that all the time. Which, sure, but none of those things are related. You can be upset about the whole of Domor and not like deny the holocaust yeah like genocide is bad that's not like a political spectrum here it's a group of people fucking shouldn't be but it is or like you'll see i mean especially now with the resurgent of um the historical revisionist like ultra right is like they gloss right over that and they just talk about soviet union's atrocities which happen they're horrible right uh but that like the what about ism to try to like look away from the holocaust is which so you can like no let's

focus on the good things of national socialism no let's fucking not so i had a as you a lot of you may know i was a reenactor and uh say it dude all right so i did cosplay for a little bit here and there and uh i ran into a group of people that sucked giant dick i fucking hated them one of guys, I can't even remember his name, but he was a huge piece of shit. He bought a Zyklon B container. Right. Because Zyklon B was used for the gas chambers. He's like, he brought it to all the shows for everybody. He's like, look, it was used, like, real fucked up.

Like, this dude was an asshole. I bet he cosplayed his SS. He did. They always do. He did. asshole i bet he i bet he cosplayed his ss they always do he did and that's like a some of the things you see about like historical revisionism when it comes to the ss or the german army you know the wehrmacht in entire like well they were just professionals they weren't nazi members like no they were yeah like the ss was literally under the command of the nazi party it was not under the

command of the wehrmacht. Right. But that's why these guys suck. I mean, they, they weaseled their way into legitimate conversation. And then like when you confront them on that, they're like, well, I'm just asking questions.

And that's like, whenever anybody fucking says that to me, I hope to get fucking struck by lightning or something like, Oh, I'm just asking questions. No, you're just stirring the shit. Let's see who's like listening.

It's a litmus test. It's like one of those things that like i've i've had that when i was in the army where someone says like really something really fucked up and racist around me to see if i bite or did like to see if like i'm in in their camp see who grabs yeah and like it's a litmus test like so uh i mean you know the whole doma is bad too you know like just to see if they can change the conversation or see if you can be like yeah it's true like no killing six million people is always bad it's always bad right unless six million people are nazis very true i'm always for killing six million nazis that would be a bad thing um well with that out of the way let's talk about some of these individual assholes. Ooh, individuals. In America, the Holocaust denial was in a large part birthed by a man named Harry Elmer Barnes.

He was a fairly mainstream historian and a decently respected researcher. Until at one point of his life, his brain turned to liquid. I imagine part of maybe some glue, Elmer's glue. Just huffing that shit. So Barnes worked for what was known, and this is in the 20s, worked for the Center of the Study of the Causes of the War, which was a German funded think tank whose entire goal is to explain that the

Germans were the victims of aggression in 1914 and the Versailles Treaty that ended World War I was morally invalid. Not off to a good start, Elmer. No. As you can tell, it was a propaganda tool. And he

worked for German propaganda for the Weimar Republic and he stayed there until it obviously became no longer cool to work for the Nazis once they came to power. Following the war, Barnes claimed that there was only two falsehoods made during World War II and about World War II. That was one, Germany started the war in 1939, which I suppose is on brand for him, since he's still arguing they didn't start World War One into the Holocaust.

Hold on. So so he he worked for the propaganda on German side, pre-Nazi propaganda. But I mean, there's still definitely a strong belief that he was being paid by the german government um during or just before world war ii it almost seems that way i mean he was i've i honestly even neo-nazis have never explained i've never even heard like neo-nazi revisionist alt writers try to tell me that the germans didn't invade poland and start world war ii i've never heard that before i've never heard it either honestly i'd like to i mean i would really like to take a deep dive how that brain works yeah that big healthy brain that thinks that way uh i i did see someone say yeah germany definitely invaded poland but it was because a judeo-polish conspiracy

against nazi germany they had to snuff it out. What? Yeah, I... Where did they get this from? That brain is so smooth, you can skip it across the pond. One of Barnes' close friends and someone he called a, quote, distinguished historian is a Frenchman named Paul Rissonier.

Rissonier is a survivor of Buchenwald and Middle Brow Dora concentration camps. He is also known as the father of Holocaust denial. Really? What? This one blew my mind. It's blowing mine. So Raisinier was not Jewish.

He was a French resistance fighter. And he was arrested. And he ended up in the camps because as a member of the French resistance fighter. And he was arrested, and he ended up in the camps because as a member of the French resistance, he was actually smuggling Jews out of France away from persecution. That was the thing. He never says that the Germans were not anti-Semitic and they weren't brutal.

I mean, he wanted them out. He worked for the French resistance. But the thing is, he was forced to build a V1 and V2 rockets and like the, the, the camps that are the, the work crews that worked on those rockets were notoriously awful. It was some of the,

uh, like the most brutal work you can do for the Nazis. Um, he saw beating starvation disease and outright murder by the SS and the camps. Uh, he eventually escaped, which is, he like and outright murder by the SS in the camps. He eventually escaped, which is he like jumped out of a moving train. At one point of the war, the Germans were moving concentration camp survivors on trains.

They called them like trains to nowhere or like death trains because they had no idea where they were going. They just needed to move them. So the trains would just go around in circles forever and ever and ever. Sounds like a shitty album name. Trains to nowhere death train uh well like what they there's no food no water no nothing on these trains and as the the war rapidly collapsed they know where to send all these people because like it always blew my mind how they thought they were going to win the war but also have this massive infrastructure involving in like slave camps and death and shit but like um they're trying to find a place to put

them so they just the train just bounced around endlessly until people just died and he eventually jumped off the fucking thing and survived barrel roll yeah do a barrel roll um so this is important to point out not all german concentration camps were annihilation camps. Not every camp had a gas chamber. He was not the one that had a gas chamber. Does he have like a work camp? Yes. Now, death through work and death through starvation and death through disease was absolutely part of the final solution. I mean, the Nazis wanted to kill everybody, but not everybody needed to go immediately.

That's why he never witnessed the selection process that happened at Auschwitz. The Nazis wanted to kill everybody, but not everybody needed to go immediately. That's why he never witnessed the selection process that happened at Auschwitz, for example. Oh, okay. You get off the train. If you're me or you, you're going to go work, period. We're not going to die right away. But if you're a woman, child, older person, sick, any kind of deformity, unless you're a twin or something like that, they can use for medical experiments. You were marched directly

to the death chambers. I think they said within one hour was a turnaround. And these gas chambers can hold... So according to the ones I... the numbers I saw, if they operated all of them once, which they normally did not all

five gas chambers i believe there were on auschwitz they could process 4700 people in a 24-hour period wow so he didn't see that he saw a death row over work which is still a mechanism of genocide it's that i mean like forced marching is a mechanism of genocide that's how the vast majority of people died during the armenian genocide was just march until the fucking desert until you die um that's what he saw but um he that ended up being his entire argument he didn't see it so it didn't happen really uh he didn't uh like he lived through it uh but he swore and wrote multiple books this dude is like a fucking endless goddamn machine of putting out books i'm a little jealous of his ability to put out content that logic is flawed oh man oh my god

he and this is something you see in the revision, the revisionist camp. There was no Nazi policy of genocide. The final solution simply did not exist. And that is not true. Yeah. I didn't see my parents. Fuck. Right.

But you were conceived. Yeah. Therefore I must be Jesus. Wow. I almost want to get one of his books. So one of the people that, translated all of his books was the guy we just talked about. Oh, Elmer. Really?

Yeah. Because this guy's French. He's the one that translated most of his books. And thankfully, all of his books sold terribly. And he had been tortured and beaten so badly by the SS during his time in captivity. Because remember, he was in a concentration camp. Yep. He suffered health problems until he died in 1967. A complete and broke asshole.

You know what the last thing he was working on before he died? The history of Israel. What? Yeah. This dude is a roller coaster. And Rissonier is a special kind of asshole because while i can respect his work in the front in the french resistance for smuggling weight right i don't know how many jews away from a certain death i don't know but because of him and because of his

books and because of uh his arguments and because of the fact of his past of being in those camps he is cited to this day by Holocaust and I was like well he was there and he didn't see it he started off so good I know it's like if he would have just been fucking executed by the goddamn Gestapo as a resistance fighter like most people were he'd been a fucking hero

yeah instead he died an asshole he had like he had a slump during his career and he stayed in that slump yeah sometimes the slump is just your life. Which brings us to our first educator-turned-denier, Austin App. Austin App. App. He was a professor at LaSalle University and taught medieval English literature.

Medieval English? Yep. That's right. That's pretty sweet. And that's the last time App will ever be sweet. So in 1973, App laid out his eight axioms, as he called it, which according to him were incontrovertible proof that the Holocaust was not real. Now, if you were to name this book as offensively as possible without using a racial slur,

because I don't feel like getting banned from iTunes or losing all of our listeners. Okay. Also Cause I don't feel like getting banned from my ads or losing all of our listeners. Okay. Also, I don't feel like being an anti-Semite. What do you think he called this? If I didn't see it, I didn't happen.

It was called the 6 million swindle. What? And those axioms are one immigration, not extermination was Nazi Germany's plan for dealing with the quote, Jewish problem. 2. No Jews were gassed in any concentration camps, including Auschwitz. 3. Jews who disappeared during the years of World War II and have not yet been accounted for did so in territories under Soviet, rather German, control. 4. The majority of Jews who were killed by the Nazis were people whom the Nazis had every right to execute as subversive spies and criminals. Five, if the Holocaust claims had any truth, Israel would have opened its archives to historians.

Six, all evidence to support the figure of six million dead rests upon the misquotes of Nazis and Nazi documents. Seven, is incumbent upon the accusers to prove the six million figure and eight jewish historians and other scholars have great discrepancies in their calculations and the numbers of victims which is like they he just revisited the six million figure like four times right um yeah those are all incontrovertible proof arguments over right that's right yeah those jews had to come in they're criminals yeah so his book sold well good bad so this is a pamphlet um pamphlet i couldn't tell you how much he's how many of them he sold but he is considered this guy is considered like the father like the like the father of american denialism because remember he's a fucking college professor right um and this was back in the 70s right 73

so like the height of the hippie movement okay i'm still it's almost kind of impressive he hits every kind of denialism in so few words also it gets better so have you heard of reason magazine you're not in magazine you're not as no you're not as unsufferably online as I am. So let me you've seen Reason Magazine if you don't believe it. It is more

commonly known as that like really annoying ass website all your grating libertarian friends share on Facebook constantly.

Okay. Like Some shit that I have to block a lot. It's something you wouldn't read. And I can tell you, I have not read many Reason magazine. It's like it's a libertarian think tank magazine with questionable funding.

Guess who wrote for Reason magazine? Austin Aft. Our boy Aft. So that's right. And Reason not only exists to this day, they're doing better than ever. not only exist to this day, they're doing better than ever. And so, despite the fact he's a Holocaust denier and was openly pro-Nazi and writing about... Yeah, he was writing about the plight of the poor German people

after World War II, calling it, quote, one of the worst mass atrocities in human history. Reason not only still has that article available, its website has him listed as a contributor, even though he's been dead since 1984. You can look it up right now. Reason Magazine supports Holocaust denial. Go fuck yourself. Jesus.

And I still remember in high school when one of my teachers, she was teaching us how to basically run a business. It was actually a pretty good class, except for the part where she tried turning everybody in her class like libertarian she'd make us watch videos and be like see see see taxation this theft kids yeah and then she talked about like uh drilling fuck what was it it was uh fracking there we go oh right right all the fucking time and i just feel like i just want to learn how to so i can go home man you're not giving me a lot of faith in the california public school system you shouldn't have had oh speaking of california we'll get to you so also thanks to app and reason magazine we now have the Institute for Historical Review, a Holocaust-denying think tank based in California.

Yes! We have something. So the IHR goes one further than Holocaust denial and runs pretty much full-on screaming into neo-Nazi territory. Their website looks like it was made on Angel Fire Circa around 2003. And it still exists. screaming into neo-nazi territory uh their website looks like it was made on angel fire circa around

2003 uh and it still exists uh on its front pages they're selling books like uh titled hitler churchill and the unnecessary war the holocaust industry and america's second crusade because if it's one thing they hate more than jews it's arabs this is awesome. Holy shit. What the fuck? The IHR was so sure the Holocaust didn't happen. They once had a challenge. They bet $50,000 and nobody could ever prove that anybody was ever killed in a gas chamber. Holy shit. I think everybody can see where this is going. Did they give up money?

Enter Auschwitz survivor Mel mermenstein the sole survivor of his entire family and uh survivor of auschwitz he submitted a notarized firsthand account of watching his mother's sister and hundreds of other people being ushered into a gas chamber number five on the auschwitz two camp otherwise known as auschwitz birkenau pretty damning. Yeah. You saw it. Okay. Also, you know, all the first-hand accounts of all the guards and everything, but the

IHR refused to pay, saying he had to be lying. So, what do they need? Well, here's the thing. Mermenstein brought his fucking ass to court. They owe me. Suing him for breach of contract, libel, slander, and various other things. The Superior Court of Los Angeles County, Judge Thomas Johnson, ruled that the Holocaust was known as judicial notice. Now, that's a law speak for being such common knowledge, no more proof needs to be found.

Furthermore, the judge required them to write a letter of apology to Mel and every other survivor of the Holocaust and pay him $90,000 instead. Holy shit. Of course, they neither paid him or ever wrote an apology. Really? Yeah. Also, there was a back and forth because Mel wrote an entire book about it, did interviews. So the IHR sued him for libel, for bad-mouthinghing him which then they had to drop because he realized like i was literally proven in court to be libeling this guy yeah asshole don't worry

california yeah don't worry 1985 somebody fucking firebombed their offices and they lost everything really yeah they lost 90 of their inventories on tapes books and all the other sort of bullshit it's the first time that 90 of something was lost and still nothing of value was lost. Also, like, there's all the people involved. Because, like, who would have thought a fucking weird think tank full of neo-Nazis and Holocaust deniers was full of assholes? They were, like, embezzling from the... Somebody embezzled, like, $7 million from them. Also, how the fuck did they have $7 million?

Where? I don't know. It was probably in the office. Like in the drawer. At one point, somebody fucking sold their entire mailing list to the Church of Scientology. Because if you're dumb enough to believe this shit, you might fall for fucking Xenu too, you stupid fuck.

Oh. You might fall for fucking Xenu too, you stupid fuck. However, the IHR is that the only time Holocaust and I would end up in court. Would they do this? This brings us to one Ernst Zundel. Zundel was German national whose dad fought in the Eastern Front of World War II. Not a strong start there. No. His dad also was a volunteer he was not drafted really yeah he's the ss i believe this i will fight for this he uh so he then uh at the fall uh you know at the end of world war ii west germany is now a thing he ran to canada when he was 19 so he didn't get drafted by west germany oh my god uh once in canada he then founded samis dot publisher uh which specialized on publishing books like

uh titled with wonderful names like the hitler we loved and why what the fuck did six million really die yeah see he unfortunately he picked the wrong fucking country to come to because this old man's insane ramblings you're thinking uh might not have much of an audience you know his biggest audience was across the border of the united states oh my god his mailing list reached up to 30 000 people now this is a mailing list this is before the fucking internet and he still found 30 fucking thousand people imagine if he existed now 30 000 assholes yeah it's just like the entire donald subreddit oh like and uh the problem zondel was he picked the wrong country this shit's illegal in canada really uh so at one point what and especially west germany oh yeah he was shipping tons of stuff

to loyal readers west germany's like we're getting all this shit shipped from canada canada followed it back to his fucking some sums of that publisher where the fuck you want to call it and literally uh made it illegal for him to mail things uh after that they realized uh that inciting uh so like unlike the united states inciting things like racial hatred saying like i mean most of the people that we mock online that shit's like illegal in a lot of places right also another thing that's illegal is spreading out like outright falsehoods provable falsehoods is illegal like fake news against the law um and he's eventually about to trial for it i i want to bring up something on the uh it's illegal to like in west germany fuck

i can't it's not it's in my head all right so one of my reenactor like people that was in charge of one of the groups he was in the army back back when West Germany was a duty station. They had to be in West Germany at all times. He was reenactor at the time as well. They'd have to go underground to black market, buy some German shit. The swastika is still illegal in Germany.

I imagine during the intense denazification programs in post-war West Germany, probably more illegal. Oh, yeah. Like, even selling any of these books that I named, illegal. And, you know, it's weird.

I'm caught in a crossroads. As a writer, as someone who says offensive shit all the time on this podcast, I'm against censorship, but at the same time, like, I get it. Like, this should be illegal. That's understandable. Like, I do not like this should be that's understandable like i do not believe that and that's another thing he was once arrested in austria for holocaust denial

really yeah because it's fucking illegal uh i believe it's legal and it's illegal in like uh a few other places as well um uh you know it's it i i don't like censorship because you know that can that can come flying back in your face but at the same time like fuck him i don't like censorship because that can come flying back in your face. But at the same time, fuck him. I don't care. Fucking throw him in prison. Yeah. So he was eventually brought to trial.

And the charge against Zundel alleged that he, quote, did publish a statement or tale named, Did Six Million Really Die? that he knows is false and likely to cause mischief to the public interest in social and racial tolerance, contrary to the criminal code. So there's charges you know this is fucking bullshit, and you're doing it anyway, which is kind of funny.

Is he still on trial in Canada? Really? The interesting part, I put him in a weird place, not only did he have to prove it, he believed it. He had to believe it was right. He had to prove it was right. See, my eyes are closed. It didn't happen. So if you think a trial against a well-known neo-Nazi in the Holocaust denier was going to be normal, you'd be very wrong. At one point, the prosecution brought Holocaust survivors as

witnesses because, yeah, I mean, millions of them exist. Why not? And they told horrible stories about watching family members being led away and never returning, watching people be marched off to the death chamber, shit like that. To this, Zundel's attorney

remarked, quote, if those who disappeared might not have just been let out a nearby gate what yeah that's a fucking yikes for me bro who's his attorney it was he's an asshole too yeah you know and i understand so i understand attorneys have to have a legal mandate to defend people. But you didn't have to fucking say that. Right. I feel like they should have something where they can go. I'm not saying that.

Do you? If. Yeah. If you're the defense attorney here, you just argue that he believes it. Right. You don't argue that the family members are just let out of that gate. That's insane. That's literally fucking nuts.

As you can tell from this fucking brilliant argument, he was convicted. But because of technicality, there was a retrial. In 1988, he called out the big guns. Fellow Holocaust deniers David Irving

and Fred Letcher. Irving, a historian himself, found himself in court once in England as well. So he sued the author of a book titled Denying the Holocaust, a woman named Deborah Lipschott, because he was called out by name in the book for being a massive asshole. And he cited one passage in particular for his slander and libel lawsuit. And it said, quote, Irving is one of the most dangerous spokespersons

for Holocaust denial. Familiar with historical evidence, he bends it and conforms it with his ideological leanings and political agenda. A man who is convinced that Britain's great decline was accelerated by its decision to go to war with Germany. He is most facetal at taking accurate information and shaping it to conform to his conclusions. A review of his recent book, Churchill's War, which appeared in the New York Review of Books,

accurately analyzed his practice of applying a double standard of evidence. He demands an absolute documentary proof when it comes to proving the Germans guilty, but he relies on highly circumstantial evidence to condemn the Allies. This is an accurate description of not only Irving's tactics, but those of deniers in general. End quote.

He brought her to court over this. During his trial, he represented himself, as any good crazy people do. And he fucking lost spectacularly remember he went into there suing her yeah he came out bankrupted fucking he came out fucking bankrupted and was literally proven by a judge to be a lying asshole on on fucking court documents i literally hope that court like the whole case lasted like five minutes like it lasted an embarrassing amount of time because

like remember the whole like they they tried to turn all of this into the holocaust is fake therefore i'm right so they get put in this position of looking like complete fucking unhinged crazy people which they are but then they end up being on stage talking about how gas chambers never happened and all this other shit like even though there's like literally an incalculable amount of evidence against them they'll stand up and say screaming at the clouds and it just goes on forever so you see the gas chambers were actually showers yeah yeah there's even shower heads yeah see some of the guards are even so nice to give them towels and soap which is actually true and those i hope those guards are dead i hope uh they were the guards who like when

the americans took over a camp they just let the the oh yeah survivors off on i hope they were one of them and i know as a soldier veteran also their shit i'm supposed to believe in the gdp convention i absolutely do but fuck them good way i like that now back to our fred fred lucher who will be the last main story we tell today is he an asshole too oh boy oh man before he suddenly became a holocaust expert lucher founded a the company known as Fred Lutcher and Associates. His company sold their services to states looking to, quote, improve document ascertain the effectiveness of their capital punishment equipment. That's kind of a mouthful.

So let me explain to you thusly. Fred Lutcher was a traveling electric chair salesman. Right. Okay. He sold electric chairs and he built them. He also built, like, gas chambers for certain places, and he built lethal injection mechanisms. Did he have a website?

This is in the fucking 80s. Oh, okay. So, for reasons that aren't entirely clear to anybody, really, he was hired by Ernst Zindel to testify as an expert witness for the price of $30,000 in 1980s money. He came to Zindel at the

recommendation of the warden of the Missouri State Penitentiary. You see, he built a gas chamber for the warden. Really? Was that allowed? Oh yeah, he was a contractor. What the f... He was a contractor. What the? He was a traveling death salesman. He sold.

There's a very good chance if anybody was executed in the United States between 1989 and the 20 years preceding that, Lutcher was involved. It almost seems like he actually bought the six million swindle. Oh, he sure did. Sweet. So Fred jumped on a plane to Poland with his wife. Reading the six million swindle. Why was his wife there? Because he didn't see.

When you have to tell someone you're about to do what he's about to do, you just don't. You just lie to him. And he told his wife that they're going on a honeymoon to Poland. What was he really doing? Well, Fred broke into Auschwitz. What the fuck? And, you see, he had to prove that nobody was ever killing a gas chamber. And he brought his wife with him?

Well, his wife wasn't in Auschwitz with him. But what he did do is bring a camera guy to videotape him breaking into Auschwitz. What the fuck? So he went into Auschwitz's gas chamber with a hammer and a chisel and began to take samples. Because remember, cyanide would show in concrete, right? Right. Okay. Not really, but sure.

Okay. I mean, this is 50 years after this had happened. Right. I mean, World War II has been over 50 years at this point. And he videotaped it, because when you're going to break five international laws, why not make it really fucking easy to get convicted? Why not blow up?

Also, he never got in trouble for this. Really? Yeah, he just never went back to Poland, so that probably helped. I feel like they should still do something. Yeah, we should probably. Something should happen. We probably should have sent him to Poland. You see, Fred was trying to prove that no gas had ever been used in the chamber.

So how did he possibly get these stolen samples tested? Like, no lab is going to touch these. Well, he lied. He brought them to a lab and told them that it was for a court case about an industrial accident. And surprise, surprise, they showed very low levels of cyanide. Because, of course they did. It's concrete, 50 years after cyanide was used. Right.

The lab manager testified as much to trial. You're probably asking, wait, why the fuck did the lab manager testify? He had no idea what fucking trial he was at. Right. He only found out after he stepped off the stand where the fuck he was testifying at. When he listened to other people talk. That fucking sucks.

The manager done the test completely incorrectly to prove gas being used. Because remember, he had been lied to. He tested the entire sample for cyanide. He was given large chunks of rock. And he tested it like you test anything else.

He pulverized the sample completely and then tested what was left for cyanide. He said this was like, quote, analyzing paint on a wall by analyzing the timber that's behind it. So like imagine that we just fucking rip out the the studs behind the wall behind us okay and then try to test those studs to what color the walls are okay i get it also that's pretty good it gets even dumber than that um the nazis destroyed the gas chambers of auschwitz when they retreated what stands today is a mostly reconstruction and i've seen them i mean they look like i get like they they're terrible i mean the bait it's still i would say like i don't know half real uh half original half reconstructed okay um meaning the guy who was supposed to be a

fucking gas chamber expert did not notice that these were not the original fucking gas chambers not to mention this complete public knowledge that these are reconstructions. He's not an expert. He's not an expert in fucking anything. Who gave him an expert? And that's the thing. After this, his career was fucking ruined. The publicity that came from this trial was not good, as you can imagine.

But on the bright side, he did start a very lucrative public speaking tour with who else than the Institute for Historical Review. The publicity on his trial also made people look into him and find out he was not an engineer, which he had been selling himself as for decades. He's not in anything. He's an asshole. He had a Bachelor of Arts. Oh, nice. I'm still, my head's still wrapped around you broke into auschwitz he broke into auschwitz to get rocks like concrete sample dude right and

not not to mention like there's other ways to go about testing it like they tested the gas chambers when they liberated the camps and found like it's so much cyanide yeah also uh i'm not a chemist so i could be wrong here if somebody's wrong please correct me um when cyanide is used it leaves what is known as a prussian blue behind it's something like i think like sulfates heavy salt something like that does to concrete it leaves a blue tinge death chambers are blue oh pretty heavy incidents of cyanide right um and then there's other ways they can test it as well um but so uh now that he was found to be a fraud so i'll i didn't know this but to be an engineer and work as an engineer you have to be licensed depending on the state i

assume but he's from massachusetts he worked out of boston okay uh in massachusetts you have to be a licensed engineer to work as an engineer he was never one of those things but he worked as an engineer at building death chambers and tables and chairs that kill people too. I built this. Yeah. I'm an, uh, engineer. And he was brought to court over it. Uh, he was found guilty and was sentenced to two years of probation. Uh, which,

you know, maybe fuck him, but whatever. I guess that's, he only broke a licensure law. Uh, he claimed that he was found guilty because of Jewish pressure. What?

Yeah. Yeah. Uh, we can all be happy that he was found guilty because of Jewish pressure. What? Yeah. Yeah. Uh, we can all be happy that he died penniless and alone as a telemarketer. Fuck that guy. Um, and you know, we can go just on and on and on about this kind of shit. Like this,

uh, modern day historical revisionist and Holocaust and things like that. Yeah. And it's sad to say that I've encountered not maybe deniers. I've encountered people who are all for it. And yeah, they fall into the, the weird,

um, they had to come and camp or whatever. Right. They literally victim blamed them an entire genocide. It's weird. Yeah. They shouldn't have been dressed like that. I've ran into a few people who believe this too

and it's belief in it is very regional. Obviously there's a large sorry, I don't mean large. I mean a loud small population of people who believe this in the United States. I mean 30,000 people sounds like a lot.

And it is. You don't believe that 30,000 people would be Holocaust-in-Iris. But in a country of 400 million people, it's not that many people. It's not, but at a time where there's no internet or actual... It's insane how well that spread. The reach that it got is insane. It's insane how well that spread. The reach that it got is insane. And there's more people like the former president of Iran, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Holocaust denier.

Oh, yeah. The guy who founded Hamas, Holocaust denier. These are things you kind of expect. Right. I'm still, again, with the whole 30,000 thing. And that was just in the United States. Right. Like, Western Germany confiscated, I think, like 200 packages. Just full of his books and his pamphlets.

That's insane. And, you know, this shit's dangerous. I mean, the Holocaust is one of humanity's greatest sins. Agreed. You know, one of any... I'm, I guess, you know, i'm a little biased because i'm armenian but like the reason why things like this are important to know because like i there is an article that came out the other day it's like 38 percent of people have never heard of the holocaust something insane Yeah. That's insane.

And that number goes up depending on where you're asking it. And one of the things that Hitler said when he was committing one of the greatest sins in human history was, after all, who speaks of the Armenians? Like, it wasn't important. People will forget about this. Like, it's okay they'll get over it and like that's why i did not i'm not i'm not here to debate a holocaust and i'll never fucking debate a holocaust because they're not debated no yeah um and that goes for anybody who

believes shit like that people who deny um the armenian genocide people who deny the Armenian genocide, people who deny the Holocaust, people who deny what happened in Rwanda was a genocide, people who deny that what happened in Myanmar recently was a genocide. Those people do not need to be engaged. Their argument is worth shit.

They're to be attacked and discredited and cast aside the garbage that they are. And that goes for every historical revisionist. And that's why I made – I fucked up, and I'll admit that. During our PragerU episode when I had Justin Rose on, I debated them point by point. And that's fucking stupid of me. I should have just mocked them because they're assholes that deserve to be mocked.

And I'll never do it again. All right. We never need to bring these people to equal footing because they're not. And that's where I'll leave us here today. Redemption. Yeah. I guess this is my redemption episode. I do not need to treat these people like they're good faith actors who want to

debate their anti-Semites, their neo-Nazis, and most importantly, they're fucking assholes. Fuck them. And I don't even think 30,000 people got Bowflex with all the marketing they did. Those adjustable dumbbells are pretty popular.

I don't know. So we'll leave you on that serious note. So as always, you can follow us, lines underscore by. You can follow me at jcast99. Follow me at nickcastm1. He might post once a week. I might. It depends on how busy I am.

If you like what we do here, you can support us on Patreon. Follow the link in the show notes. If you want to wear a shirt, you have to wear a shirt if you go outside yes why not make one of ours i wear mine on the reg hell yeah um you know they're comfortable they don't you know what they cover your nipples they do and you know what they also don't do they don't shrink as much as like because apparently i'm really bad at laundry and i shrink a lot of shit. Yeah. So I got that going for me. And you know what they also,

they don't do, they don't deny the genocide like reason magazine does. Fuck you. Reason magazine. And with that, we love you and we'll see you next week. Later. Hi, this is Nate Bethay and I'm the producer of the lions led by donkeys podcast.

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