Lions Led By Donkeys Podcast - Episode 403 - The Sand Creek Massacre

Episode Date: March 2, 2026

SUPPORT THE SHOW ON PATREON https://www.patreon.com/lionsledbydonkeys US Forces lie to the people of the Great Plains, convince them they are under the protection of the US government for the purpose of negotiations and commit a crime so horrible that it forces congress to investigate. *correction. Several Medals of Honor have been revoked. Specifically in 1917. This had nothing to do with conduct but rather a changing of criteria of what was considered worthy of the medal. SOURCES: Grinnell, George. Bent, George. The Fighting Cheyennes. Grinnell, George. Bent, George. The Cheyenne Indians: Their History and Lifeways. Hatch, Thom (2004). Black Kettle: The Chief Who Sought Peace But Found War. Hoig, Stan (1977). The Sand Creek Massacre. Hoig, Stan (1980). The Peace Chiefs of the Cheyenne Brown, Dee. Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee: An Indian History of the American West Bensing, Tom. Silas Soule: A Short Eventful Life of Moral Courage. Report of the US Congress Joint Committee On The Conduct of the War. 1865. https://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=moa;idno=ABY3709.0003.001;rgn=full%20text;view=toc;cc=moa

Hey everyone, it's Joe. If you like what we do here on the show, consider supporting us on Patreon. Just $5 a month gets you access to our entire bonus episode catalog, as well as every regular episode, one full week early. Access to all of our side series that are currently ongoing and our back catalog of those as well. Gets you e-books, audiobooks, first dibs on live show tickets and merchandise when they're available, and also gets you access to our Discord, which has turned into a lovely little community. So go to patreon.com slash lions led by donkeys and join the Legion of the Old Crow today. Hey everybody. Welcome to the Lions Led by Donkeys podcast.

I'm Joe. With me is Tom. Nate is away working on his debut album, which I insist on calling a mixtape. Tom, how are you doing? I'm doing good, man. I had a week off from recording last week where I got deeply, deeply into playing Majong and I'm currently platinum ranked in the world at Majong. So today, as of the day of recording, is the Chinese Lunar New Year, Happy Year of the Horse,

bad times for us. God damn it, that's got to be bad omens. But yeah, I'm doing good. The weather is starting to get nice in London, well, despite the fact it like rained constantly the other day. but I'm in a good mood I've got some good news recently which I will reveal in due time

on the podcast but yeah I got told by the doctor the other day I have perfect blood pressure I'm doing good nice I'm happy to hear that you're getting into mahjong because you do smoke enough to be a Chinese grandfather yep I'm happy to see that

your Chinese grandfather maxing I think give me a couple of months and I will be ingratiated enough to be playing backroom mahjong games in Chinatown for money. So, you know. Hell yeah. I look forward to that arc of yours.

I've got to be like John Claude Van Damme in Bloodsport. Yeah, we took a week off of recording, which we almost never do, because I went on a very short holiday hung out with Nate in Switzerland, which is a lovely country for everything other than by savings. I came home immediately got sick upon arrival, as one does. But I don't feel like you can hear it too badly anymore. No, you sound okay. Yeah, it was nice.

It was nice. I spent a weekend with the delightful like travel turbo cold that you get from being trapped in trains and planes with hundreds of strangers. And, you know, I laid in bed. I watched the Olympics and I drank entirely too much cold medicine. You're sitting watching the ice skating with the hat man sitting. beside you. The hatman is saying like, oh, Alyssa Lou didn't really hit the triple axle right. I will say that drinking entirely too much cold medicine when you live in the Netherlands does not have such an ominous undertone to it as saying in the United States because we can't

get anything good here. Like, I think I told the story on the show before, correct me if I'm wrong, but last year, I was very sick. It wasn't the flu or anything. It was just like the normal seasonal bullshit that gets passed around, but I felt awful. And my mom tried to mail me Mucinex from America, which contains a controlled substance of some kind. I'm not sure which one. There's probably like a thousand things in there. You can't buy over the counter of the EU. And it was seized by Dutch customs. And they sent a very threatening letter to my home. Yeah, I mean like the UK, you might get a bit of a grilling. But yeah, a couple of So like two weeks ago, I pulled something in my back.

It was like in my, kind of in my traps and I couldn't look to either side. So I was like, oh, I took some ibuprofen. And I was like, I think I had to go on site to do some work and went to the pharmacy and was like, oh, I need the good stuff. Can I get some neurofen plus, which is like ibuprofen and coding? And they're like, oh, we don't actually have neurophan plus. Here's the generic stuff that's like a fourth of the price and just as strong. Let me tell you, that shit worked. You can get coding over the counter in the UK?

Yeah, yeah. No, it's not like, oh, you know, sipping that perp. Yeah, sure. Yeah, you're not getting the scissure up. But like back home in Ireland, because I used to work in a pharmacy, like, you get absolutely grilled trying to buy NureFN Plus because it's really addictive. Yeah, yeah, it's got coating in it. Like, I remember when they changed the laws and you had to like properly grill people and it was like, oh, is it for yourself? Yeah, what are using it for? blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, don't take it for more than a couple of days. And it's like, you know, we are really kind of living in the kind of minimized version of America where it's like, no, we will just give you oxies like their skittles.

And over here, it's like, if you take more than four of these days, you will get shot with a gun. I don't remember if they made codeine a controlled substance in the United States. I haven't lived there in a lot of years, Americans, please remind me. but I remember when I was a kid, you'd get straight fucking lit at the CVS over the counter like aisle. You could develop some problems

in that aisle. Walking out with Gucci Main pre-prisoned and he's like, what's that guy? Oh, he just got a cold. He's just taking mucinex. Yeah. I mean, you could get triple Cs.

You could get fucking DXM. I mean, this is all just like picking it up off the shelf and buying it. No problems. Huge issue for, uh, society at large. You shouldn't take those things without a doctor. But you're feeling good, Tom. Are we all good here? Now I'm ready to feel bad. I got to ask you a question, Tom. Okay, hit me.

Have you ever heard the Sand Creek Massacre? Uh, no, but I feel like I'm about to hear some things that won't make me happy. You are correct. I will say we're going to introduce some probably some of the scummiest motherfuckers we've ever talked about in American history today. So far, big ass. districts there. For a little introduction, the American Civil War is a time of terrible tragedy and crimes. And through it all, it was a titanic struggle for the future of the United States and most importantly the destruction of the concept of chattel slavery. The union was so obviously the good guys that we, Americans, in general, tend to overlook the horrible shit that they did during the course of that victory.

Whenever you hear the word massacre and civil war put together, it's like, oh, we're in for a fun time. This is like, I'm re-watching the Sopranos at the moment and got to the famous episode in season three called Pine Barons that involves the Russians. And then there's just that little bit of like, one of the Russians pointing to a photo on the shelf and it's him and his friend in Russian military uniforms

and drops the info that they fought in Chechnya. And it's like, oh, this is the first Chechchette war. Oh boy. Kill 60, Czechoslovakians. Czechoslovakians. It's what Polly Walnuts says. Okay, I still haven't seen the Sopranos.

It's on my list, I promise. And even the most basic American history education, say in our grade school, whatever, on these issues, tends to gloss over them at best or simply lies about them at worse. And you probably assume

when I talk about glossing over things or lying about them, that I must be talking about Native Americans, and you are correct. Before we get to those, I need to cover three things. First, a content warning. Massacres right in the episode title. In case you thought that word suddenly meant something else. We're going to be talking about some pretty terrible shit.

Now is your chance to get off that train. But as always, I don't encourage this. I encourage you to listen because hearing about bloody history in America, where the majority of our listeners are from, if the metrics are telling the truth, or anywhere else for that matter, it can't hurt you. It's armor for the future because history doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme quite often. Yeah, by the end of this episode, I'm going to be even deeper into my America caca bag. Next two episodes. Oh, fuck off. I should say this is not a series. Consider it something of an anthology. Oh, thank God.

recording lines up by robots in between those two episodes. Second, if at any point you hear me use the word Indian, it's because I'm quoting someone else who uses it, normally because whatever I'm quoting is from the 1800s, and I'm not talking to any of our really shitty relatives over a Thanksgiving table. Thirdly, context. And I don't have a fun pun for you today, Tom. Time to wander into the massacre of context. Broken upon the wheel of context. Like, anything to do with the native peoples of the United States?

We have a lot of history to go over that involves U.S. government, fucking them over for a prolonged period of time, which I should point out, continues until today, and most certainly will. In the case the Cheyenne and the Arapaho, the two main tribes are going to be focusing on today, we have to go back to the mid-1800s and the area that they called home, generally what we know as the Great Plains. Just for some previous context on this as well, because this is not the first time that we've covered topics that are connected to this.

By the mid-1800s, most of the native tribes had already been uprooted or driven away from where they had lived generationally, at least to some capacity. How this would generally work is natives would live somewhere. They have probably lived that way, and in that place, for as long as any of them could remember, white people would discover something that they lived on that they decided was worth something. They would start then moving in. Native people would defend themselves. White people would then get soldiers from the government to come in alongside civilian militias and begin wholesale slaughter.

These native peoples then would eventually be forced to sign a wildly unequal treaty that either gave up any claim to the land and move them somewhere else, or they would be given a slightly smaller piece of land within that same general area, which would then shrink over time until they were, nothing left and they two were moved somewhere else. And when I say moved, I mean, forcibly relocated under a threat of violence. And in most cases, violence happened anyway. These are clearly genocidal acts. Yeah, the entire context of the 19th century in America is America and Americans having the same energy as the guy who like, you punch him in the face

because he like harassed your girlfriend at a bar and he pulls a gun on you. Yeah, pretty much. Mm-hmm. It's, I'm trying to think of, of a different analogy here. As if America is not like that anymore. Also true. Yeah. American Caldrican best be described as people will claim their property as your

own and then kill you over it. And then it is your fault when they kill you over what they perceive as to be their property. Something that is hardwired into society to the point that your average American thinks it's totally fine to murder someone for, like, stealing you. your TV. Yeah, it's because America were the originators of crying while shooting and then exported it to America 2, aka Israel.

That is correct. And that's what happened in this case too. The tribes of the Great Plains were slowly pushed off their land thanks to the Oregon and Santa Fe trails, which in turn existed thanks to the California Gold Rush. Once word of gold got out, every dip shit

in the U.S. would west, trying to strike a rich while mostly just striking disease and poverty. And the best case scenario, we're still forced to live in California. Can't trust California, too many Armenians in it. I got the black, long Dutch, but I got all this beautiful legal cush. My main issue with California isn't like the average American complaining about California. There's simply too many Kardashians for me to trust it. I love that you're turning into Dr. Oz. Now, you know what the difference between me and Dr. Oz is? I'm not at the Epstein files.

Come at the Armenian bakeries. You best not miss, motherfucker. Every moron with enough money to get on a wagon train began to flood west. And obviously, in between California and the East Coast where the majority of these dickheads came from, was where a lot of Native Americans lived. And it wasn't uncommon for these same morons

to decide about halfway through this horrible journey that, you know what, being on a wagon train really sucks. Let's jump off this motherfucker and move into this completely free and empty land that we happen to be driving through. I say, Mabel, why we go west, why don't we hop off this wagon and eat those berries off that gorse bush? Thank you, Dutch. No, that's more uncle. Yeah, it's fair. Over time, these growing numbers of morons began building their moron towns, which are generally known as Colorado today.

This in turn sparked a native response to these guys stomping through their backyards and claiming it as their own. And like I said before, the U.S. government eventually responded, sent soldiers into the area, eventually starting a well-worn Western trope of the far-flung frontier army base. These soldiers would in turn ride out and commit some of the most heinous crimes of American history. After doing this for years, we end up with something called the Treaty of Fort Laramie in 1851. The treaty, at least according to the government, was meant to allow the passage of settlers through the land of several native tribes in exchange for land guarantees and promises of cash, supplies, and various other things.

With, of course, the threat of military force, should they not agree. You might recognize this as strong arming. The treaty gave the Black Hills area to the Lakota Sioux and the Northern Platte River, what today would be like chunks of Wyoming, Colorado, and Kansas. to the Cheyenne and Arapaho. Longtime listeners of the show probably already remember that time we talked about what happened in them,

their Black Hills. If not, go listen to our series on the Battle of Little Big Horn to get caught up on that. Fun fact, it has a good ending until it doesn't. This lovely little arrangement only lasts a couple years,

thanks to another gold rush. This time and at the time was Western Kansas and northwestern Nebraska territories. People flooded in, not just from the United States, but Europe as well, as the population of the area skyrocketed to around 150% to what it had once been before. This created the concept of Colorado out of thin air. Denver and Boulder were built to absorb the 100,000 or so people who settled on the land,

and within a very short amount of time, they managed to get the U.S. government to create the Colorado territory in 1861. Like, this is within three years, give or take. As you can imagine, this massive increase of white assholes in their backyard in an area already populated by native people led to quite a few people getting shot. I mean, by this logic, I think the Armenians could pressure Gavin Newsom to, like, create Yaravan too. MicroState made entirely of phone shops. Well, to be fair, the sequels are as good as the original. And Gavin Newsom, when it comes to Armenians, really does love to relitigate ancient history, doesn't he? Hey, East Coast, West Coast beef squashed by Eric Adams and Gavin News. I'm siding with the Turks.

Like, I'm willing to look into a lot of the modern nation state of Turkey and Azerbaijan's claims over Armenian land. If I could also get a hustler bracelet from Eric Adams. This is what I'm saying. Eric Adams should have sided with the Armenians because who loves hustle more? Armenians are Turks. Man, that just says nothing to do with what we're talking about today. But like, Armenians are so bad at influencing politics outside of Armenia that we couldn't even turn Eric Adams. And that dude was corrupt for everybody. We're so bad at this.

Like, in Armenia, all of our politicians are, quote, allegedly corrupt, right? I have to put a weight bearing allegedly there due to the implications. But like, the second you leave the borders, it's like, man, why don't you use your powers for corruption for good? But they just can't do it. They just can't. And after people start getting shot, of which, like, I'm not bold-sizing this. I'm really just trying to move along to our topic. This violence is 100% the fault of settlers.

We've talked about this on countless other series and episodes that talk about Southera colonialism. But in Raphael Emkin's original definition and explanation of the concepts of genocide, settler colonialism itself is a form of genocide because it is inherently destructive. and eliminationist. So I don't want anybody to think that we're yada yada yada yawning our way through this. It's just that we've talked about it countless times before.

If you're curious about more of this and the concept of like Native American Shatter zones and other things like, I am available to speak to your university classes and high school history classes. I've done it before. It's always remembering the concept that like displacement prefigures, you know,

um, murder like kind of before people are like killed en masse. They are first displaced from their I suppose like locale so other people can move in. This is like yeah, it's the same thing. Yeah. And again like

in any kind of settler colonialist eliminationist violence, this whole thing could simply not happen if the settler colonialist did not move in. Yes. First you displace people and then displace them to almost like a controlled zone where there is specific territories. where they can exist quote unquote freely,

then what you do is you slowly kettle that space more and more in order to, you know, eliminate those people. Something that is not happening right now. Someone could say you're making an area where a certain group of people could be concentrated. And we get the same formula that the US military and government used before in this area.

Soldiers are moved in to protect the territory because territorial politicians are claiming things are unsafe due to the Native Americans, these soldiers then shoot the Native tribes until the Bureau of Indian Affairs, which is the government agency involved in managing quote-unquote Indian territory. Agency still exists today moves in to administer this land. These guys are generally used, but not always, as diplomats between the U.S. government and native tribes.

They're always given the title of agent, which makes them seem like, more important than they actually are. The BIA agents are generally fucking terrible. It probably goes without needing to be said. They go in, they speak to Native tribes and they offer them treaties

always with the threat of military force behind it. They're always offering more than they're going to give. Even in these wildly unequal treaties like they're offering money, supplies, like seeds, so Native peoples could farm very rarely do they actually get the things involved in the treaty virtually never and one thing

that's worth noting because like some people um those people being morons will critique native americans for engaging with the bureau of indian affairs because it's like oh could you not see what they're doing it was like well if you have a choice of either i am going to be shot by the army or engage with this kind of institution with the small semblance of hope of like living a kind of safe existence like what do you expect them to do? I'm honestly baffled that that guy exists. Oh, yeah. I know that they do because we live in a world where there's always a kind of guy who exists.

Anybody who says that says it from a place of immense privilege and safety. That goes like, shut the fuck up. That's my debate to you. I'm begging you to shut the fuck up. Especially if you happen to look like Tom or I. This was the treaty of Fort Wise in 1861. This treaty pretty much undid the last one and caused even more problems. At this point, this cycle had been going on for generations.

And native people and their chiefs are really starting to decide, fuck this. If I'm going to be screwed over, my people are going to fight it out. And this is not a universal thing. We've talked about this a million times. No native tribe is a monolith. bans, tribes, clans in the case of the Cheyenne. They generally operate independently.

The Cheyenne have quite an interesting government, we'll talk about in a second, but still, they tend to work together sometimes, not other times, like any society, they have disagreements and arguments. So despite the treaty being signed, the majority of Cheyenne chiefs had refused to sign it. The Americans obviously didn't care about that. If a single chief signed it, that was good enough for them. And they pretended it was perfectly legal. while the anti-treaty faction of Cheyenne said those minority of chiefs did not speak for them. Because this is important, they didn't. And the reason for this has to do with how the Cheyenne government and society functioned.

In general, the Cheyenne Society had two branches, the military societies and the Council of 44, the Council of course being like the administrative government. The military society is what it says right on the tin. The Council of 44 was a gathering of four chiefs from each of the ten bands of Maine-Shayan, who then managed the day-to-day governance of the tribe at large, which included approving and rejecting treaties. Obviously, the U.S. never dealt with Native people's government in an equal capacity, or in any way that ever respected how things are meant to work. Because, most importantly, that would require them to respect their right to exist at all.

So when the Council of 44 refused to sign the treaty, the government agents from the BIA simply bribed a few other chiefs to get some names on a piece of paper and called it good. Because like in most cases of genocidal violence and genocidal administration, there's always some thin veneer of legality over it. Yeah, it's also a point as well when looking back at history, particularly when there is very clearly like one side who is suffering from the other. a lot of people fall for. It's a kind of weird version of the idea of the noble savage in that like there's some sort of like ethnic consensus throughout a group that is being, you know, subjected to colonial violence, etc. And not really looking at the complexity of the way history actually is because history is the

same as the present is like you will have people who will have their own personal motivations or personal kind of ideas of how best to either survive a situation. or benefit from a situation. So it's like, keep that in mind when we're thinking about this sort of stuff because it's like,

a lot of people will probably be like, oh, they all were just subject to this kind of colonial violence writ large. And it's like, no,

it's much more complex than that. It's always more complex in people think, especially in a colonial project that goes on for so long in the grand scheme of things. And quite a few bands of Cheyenne just ignored the treaty

because they didn't recognize it. They continue hunting on the same lands they always had, and fought settlers or soldiers that dare to move in. Violence increased with the white population, creating a slow simmering war over the years as more and more bands of different tribes joined in. We call that here on the show

the greater unifying theory of fuck that guy. Because it kind of goes without saying that the Cheyenne and their neighbors also had their own beefs with one another. They are geopolitical bodies in their own regional way. They have their own issues with each other for territory hunting rights and whatever else any other group of people have problems with.

But when white people move into the neighborhood, that heads be like, look, we'll deal with this shit later. In this case, there are a lot of tribes who want to return to their guns, pissed off about how badly they'd been screwed over by their treaties and a reality that they forced them to live in. Because, and we've talked about this before, when native peoples are forcibly relocated, they're always forcibly relocated to a piece of land that white people deem worthless. That could be, there's no hunting game on it. The land is. completely infertile, whatever it might be. So whenever they're moved to a place, all of their lives get worse. And this has been going on. This is the 1860s we're talking about. This has been

going on for a while already. Yeah. Also, to bear in mind is like, they will get moved to a place that like the colonial Paris has deemed as useless until a single nugget of gold shows up. That's exactly what happens in the Black Hills. Yeah. Yeah. And in a lot of cases, especially down the road, the pieces of land they're moved to are engineered to be worthless and not sustainable for human life. It's a long death. And the U.S. government does this on purpose.

Like, that cannot be stated enough. Maybe one day we'll do a longer series on that when I really want to make people sad, but just know that whenever they're moved. And the native people, they know this. They've seen it happen to their neighbors. It's happened to them. This has been going on for as long as any of them, remember.

So, you know, eventually, they get pushed too fucking far. And for a lot of tribes, a lot of bands, the thing that really makes them turn back to their guns is someone else standing up. It gives them a rallying point because they know that standing up on their own and getting their own weapons is effectively suicide. They need an alliance to be able to maybe not win. They know they can't win, but to win a victory in their own definition, that is continue surviving. Or at least fight the government to the point they get a treaty that is at least in their benefit a little bit. bit. In this case, after the Cheyenne started punching speed holes and settlers, they began meeting with members of the Sioux, the Comanche, the Kiowa, the Arapaho, and others, and started talking

about joining forces. This became known as the Colorado War, as bands of warriors rated settlers' wagon trains and farms while settler militias and U.S. soldiers just did their best recreation of death squads across the planes in response. Though admittedly, the U.S. military in Colorado, was it exactly too good at that either? Remember the years we're talking about here? The U.S. military footprint in the area is quite small. The American Civil War had kicked off already, so soldiers had to get fed into musket-based meat grinders in the south. That didn't mean that nobody was around to do frontier violence, though. Also because of that, the U.S. government was slightly more willing to meet with native leaders, at least for a little bit,

hoping to get a peace in the region. That would always be temporary. and would allow them to focus on the war against the South. So there are times like in 1863 when President Lincoln himself meets with chiefs from various different tribes, promising togetherness and lying to their face is what I'm saying. At one point, Lincoln gives literal letters out to peace-minded chiefs to show to the BIA agents and soldiers in their area

to say, like, look, your president says, I'm one of the good ones, like we should work together. And in a lot of cases, though she's her literally carrying a letter from the president of the United States are murdered by soldiers stationed in the area who just kind of don't give a fuck and know that neither does the president. I just got to say about Lincoln, fuck that big ass bitch. He's the only president that I think that I would legitimately lose in a fight, you know? Yeah, he's got reach on you. He was also like a really good wrestler. Yeah, there you go.

Dude, they had grabs. Going up against Abraham Lincoln and no gee, BJJ. No Gie BJ is just wearing the cotton onesie that you wear in the frontier with the butt flap. Yeah, he just, like, he's scooting along the floor towards you, get you like on the ground in an arm bar. Top hat does not come off. I'm going to throw a technique at Lincoln that's going to hit him so fast. He's not even have time to tap out. It's called the John Wilkes booth.

No, Abraham Lincoln going for a double-legant take down. The top hat just hits you straight in the dick. Now, these murders would have, of course, infuriate the tribes, namely the Cheyenne, who'd find some white people to kill in revenge, as you would imagine they would. These revenge killings would get plastered across every newspaper in the West, but obviously in the context of this episode, Colorado, sparking outrage. More people, namely settlers, would get their weapons, infuriated by these stories and go do more killings, which would, of course, fuel more revenge killings.

By 1864, the Union government had pulled so many soldiers back for the war that Cheyenne warriors were nearly able to lay siege to Denver, which obviously isn't a major city at the time, but it's a sizable town. They drove settlers off their lands. They drove those settlers back into Denver and Boulder for protection. They began to do serious damage to the wagon trains that kept the whole territory functioning as well. The governor of the Colorado Territory, a guy named John Evans, set a letter to Washington, D.C., asking for their Colorado volunteer units who have been off fighting the Confederates to be allowed to return to Colorado to fight the Cheyenne. Secretary of War Edward Stanton turned that down.

Obviously, the logistics involved of pulling a bunch of dudes off the front line and sending them back to Colorado in the 1860s. There's a real big pain in the ass. It would have taken a really long time. Not to mention, no, he's entirely sure where anybody is at the warfront, at the Civil War. Instead, he authorizes the governor to create a temporary unit to fill the scamp that become known as the Third Regiment of Colorado Volunteers. They'd be allowed to serve for 100 days to stabilize the situation.

These men became known as the 100-dazers, and Governor Evans gave them explicit orders to destroy, quote, any hostile Indians. This term hostile Indian is used a lot to mean those not under the thumb. of the government, pretty much, not on reservations once those really began to swallow populations and not friendlies, meaning those living where we tell them. With that, we need to change gears a little bit and talk about the commander of the Colorado Military District and the commander of the third Colorado, Colonel John Chivington. Chivington is a strange guy who will only get stranger as this episode goes on. He was born where else but Ohio. He fought as a soldier in DeCumse's war,

before seeing the light of God and becoming a Methodist minister. Not a good sign. Yeah, well, we can all have our complaints against the Methodist or any other branch of religion, but... No, I think any military commander having a come-to-Jesus moment is not good. Well, in this timeline, he fights in the war as a young man, goes back home, then finds God. He spends the majority of his life up into this point as a minister.

he moves west to Kansas as a missionary for the Wynet tribe. And obviously I'm not saying it's a good thing. He was a minister to a native tribe. But while he was there, he wrote some very promising things about his ideas around native people. It's still the 1800s, so a lot of it's foundationally racist. Yeah. But, you know, he wasn't pro-violence against these people.

He didn't say like, oh, they need to turn and accept our Christian God or face the blade or whatever. He thought violence against them was a sin and it was ungodly. He moved to Nebraska doing much of the same. And what is interesting here is he served as a minister during the times known as Bleeding Kansas as an outspoken abolitionists. Using the same through line, which a lot of abolitionists were, finding the route towards almost equality, but at best, you know, abolitionism through the Bible.

Okay, so this means that he's one of the good guys, yes, Joe. Oh boy. Joe? Joe. He is honestly one of the greatest villains in American military history. But I do have some legitimately interesting good guys coming up that Chivington should have had a lot more in common with. But hold that thought.

It was because of this when the Civil War started, he immediately ran to rejoin the military as an officer. Now, the Methodist Church aren't Quakers. They don't have a strict theological adherence to pacifism. according to the Book of Discipline, which is important to Methodists, I'm sure if there's a Methodist listening, you could tell us more. They find violence for any reason incompatible with the teachings of Christ. So it's not like he was like excommunicated or whatever the Methodist version of that is for rejoining the military, but he was no longer allowed to be a minister because being a minister and a soldier were incompatible to them. Because of this,

Evans, the governor of Colorado and Chivington's close friend, offered him a position. as a chaplain so he could continue being a minister. But Chivington refused. He wanted to fight because he saw the fight against the Confederates as a crusade against slavery. Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, there's the word for everyone waiting to hear it. And he became a major in the first Colorado. From here, Chivington actually has a role in an episode we've already talked about. It was a patron episode called the Failed Confederate Invasion of New Mexico.

He became something of a hero at the Battle of Loretta Pass because he accidentally stumbled upon the Confederate supply line and destroyed it, duming the Confederate invasion plans. This catapulted him above his previous standing. It didn't hurt that the Western theater of the Civil War was in reality quite small. So he became a quite literal big fish in a small pond

because he's also a great big fat guy. Great big fat fish with a stupid beard. I fucking hate this guy. You will too, I promise. Oh, I'm getting there. He was a vocal supporter of Colorado statehood, and like I said, he was a friend of the governor. And now he added a new title of War Hero to his resume. So suddenly, Chivington is entering the political arena and a place that might become a state soon.

Like, the Colorado political lead is very, very small. And he manages the weasel his way right in there. So before long, Governor Evans had been trying desperately to get D.C. heavily involved in Colorado. because that would add to his pro-statehood argument. And one of the ways of doing that was stoking fears about native violence, which in turn would force the government to send more resources his way. Chivington joined in, despite the fact that he had wrote a lot of shit about how you needed to treat your neighbors, in this case, the Native Americans, as your godly brothers and sisters.

I hate to see a heel turn at this period in time. Especially for who would have thought you turned to a genocidal fascist for political gain? I'm certainly, we'll never see that again. Chivington is the commander of the military district and the commander of these 100 dazers, standing right next to the governor saying that, yeah, these are the greatest threat to Colorado, you know? It's the greatest threat and internal enemy to the legitimacy of our statehood and stability of our society. That's right. Things that will never happen again.

Thank God for that. And Chivington, you know, he believed that he was really close to being quite possibly Colorado's first congressional representative when statehood happens. And he thought the thing

he needed to really push himself across that finish line was another military victory. Because remember, it's a civil war. There's a lot of dudes leaving the military with good resumes and entering politics.

He needed to up his resume. Evans was promising him war against the native peoples. On top of being, scheming politicians, they're both violent genocidal racists. Now, like I said, Chivington had never been like this

before. Evans always had. But like Chivington, he changed for political game. Once getting to the point that everything he wrote before shit, even his religious beliefs, all that went straight out the goddamn window for a shot at that first congressional seat, possibly.

Absolute power corrupts. Absolutely. Evans promoted Chivington to command and charged him with, quote, killing all of the Indians you come across. Chivington saw no issue with this, or at least he didn't voice any. It should be pointed out here that Chivington is also a fucking terrible military commander. Even his big break at the Battle of Gloria at a pass was a complete accident. He didn't mean to find the Confederate supply line.

He stumbled across it. And even then, even though he did destroy it, he failed to capitalize on it, earning him a lot of blame from soldiers and officers who were actually there. I hate the concept of a. military fail son who's just failing upwards constantly. It really helps when the governor is your best friend. On top of what we're eventually going to talk about in the case of his new command, he just didn't give a shit.

According to his peers, he paid such little attention to his soldiers under his command that the officers under him just were left to do whatever they wanted. And really, whatever they wanted, boil down to what they thought they had to do to do their jobs. Because they were getting no direction from Chivington. He couldn't be bothered to track what they're doing

because he rarely left Denver because he was hanging out with Governor Evans and plotting his future in politics. And to make all of this much worse, the soldiers under his command and even the officers in the third Colorado were about as bad as they could possibly be. That's because think of how the hundred dazers were formed.

The prime fighting men of Colorado had already enlisted and were sent away to fight the South or were already in other Colorado units, leaving the dregs of frontier era Colorado to fill the ranks in this very, temporary unit. And look, as a person who could be best described as former bottom of the barrel soldier,

I'm a dregs man. You could still turn these guys into something resembling a line unit. It just requires time and training. I'm struggling to conceptualize the dregs of the Union army because it's not like they're really turning people away. No, I mean, if you got all your hands and enough teeth to pull open a cartridge, like you you got a contract buddy wait wait joe all of your hands that implies more than two yeah well you or the irish were coming over you know how many hands you guys got that's what they

actually uh you know stole from us through the proper you know institution of the united states is they didn't know people had three hands at that point the secret irish third hand If you got to ask, you can't afford it. Hey, the turdand is what we use to steal from you. That's right. And, you know, that time in training, something that requires more than a hundred days. So, like, from the very beginning, these guys were not going to get a lot of attention or drilling. And according to every account that I read regarding these soldiers, people just call them a armed, slightly uniformed mob.

And they never really given any training. they're just kind of assumed they know how to fire their guns when they show up to work. They are even below the standards of militia, I should point out, because your standard of militia in the days of America when such a thing existed, they at least met for training every once in a while. It was mandatory. The officers and men of the Colorado Military District were, by all accounts, incredibly bored in itching for a fight.

If you're going enlist in a temporary unit meant to fight Native Americans, you can imagine the kind of guns. that that attracts. If they were alive today, they would join ice. It's not good to have a group of soldiers kind of being bored surrounded by a quote-unquote enemy that they have no repercussions from killing. Yeah. So this is not good.

It's not. One of its commanders is a guy named Ned Wein-Coop. He got a reputation for ascending scouts far outside of his area trying to find natives the fight, but instead only success. seated in pissing off tribes that we're not at war with the United States. The fact that the third volunteers hadn't seen combat became a joke with veterans insulting them and calling them the bloodless third, which only pissed them off more. Other times they join forces with local BIA agents, namely a guy named Samuel Colley

and his trading partner, John Smith. Smith wasn't a BIA agent, but he was affiliated. like Collie and him were working together, let's say. I shouldn't have to explain again how big of a piece of shit these guys are because they work for the BIA in the 1800s. And fun fact, we've actually had several native fans right into the show to tell us that the BIA is still staffed by dickheads. I guess that isn't such a fun fact. My bad.

Please keep writing it. Yeah. Smith was a bastard even within the framing devices of the BIA. He worked on the planes for over 20, fun. years and made himself fantastically wealthy, stealing government aid that was meant to go to native people within the area that he worked in. This happened so often that the native people who dealt with him called him Lion John. Nicknames used to be so much cooler. And since he was affiliated with the BIA though, they had no choice but to deal with him anyway. And while all this is going on,

Collie was writing to Governor Evans telling him, wow, these people sure are violent and want war with me. I have no idea why. So I really wanted to go into more about the thieving that these two got up to, but like, it's really outside the scope of this episode, but I should point out that it's thought that the two of them stole like $40,000 worth of government aid and supplies to natives, not adjusted for inflation. That's a fuckload of money. Yeah, that is a lot of stuff, a lot of money. Like, I'm surprised even had that much stuff for them to steal. Well, they were, they were stealing stuff from the government and strong arming native people into, hey, I can get you this if you give me that.

Like the stuff that they had that they thought was worth something they could sell. They have like a Rick Ross amount of money on the Great Plains. Like they woke up in a new Bugatti parentheses horse. You know what I mean? Like these guys are absolute fucking pieces of shit and were absolutely stoking more violence by their activities. And also like Rick Ross, they are essentially prison guards. Yes, I mean, they are cops effectively.

And soon, Winecoop and his men were acting as security for him because he kept writing to Governor Evans talking about how dangerous everything was. Everybody's threatening to kill him. And I should point out here, Winecoop is not a bad guy, kind of. But he is a great example of, let's say, a man of his era. He's originally from Philly. He moved out to Kansas and was appointed Arapaho County's first sheriff. And while doing that, he decided he didn't make enough money, so he ran a protection racket for the local brothels.

Then, long since being accused of corruption, lost his reelection, got ran out of town, and went to join the army. And the crazy part here is, he's not a bad guy in this story. Because it's the 1800s and America's very foundation is about the lowest bar it could possibly be. And we'll get to why Winecoop isn't a terrible guy in a second, but this kind of shit is happening all over, to the point that Major McKinney, the deputy adjutant general of the Kansas department, wrote his superior, General Samuel Ryan Curtis,

worrying that Chivington's men were committing such blind, wanton violence and thievery against the native people that he was worried that it was going to cause a general uprising. And he was 100% right here. Yeah, there's an acceptable limit of folkery that you can engage with

without angering, you know, the local population to the point of they want your guts for garters. And remember, the context we're talking about here, imagine doing something something so fucking insane that the local U.S. Army General in charge of subjugation of the native people's like, you've gone too far. Like, just remember that's the context we're talking about

here, whenever the army complains about something. But remember how I said Winecoop, the former corrupt sheriff slash brothel strong man was, and guy who was helping the B.I. commit what amounted to armed fraud was kind of the good guy. Well, during one of his unauthorized missions into native land, he met a Cheyenne chief named Black Kettle. These guys end up getting along great. Okay. Tell me more. They kind of broed down. Winecoop had been under strict orders to make only war.

Negotiation was not on the table. Remember what Governor Evans' orders were to Chivington. He meant them. But Wine Coop simply ignored those orders and sat down with black kettle for a couple of days. He traded supplies with him. He hung out with him and his warriors and his civilians. And in return, not only freed several white settlers had been captured, but got Black Kettle and his other chiefs to agree to travel to Denver for peace talks.

Peace talks that nobody in the Colorado government had agreed to or wanted. But, you know, Wine Coop is like, why not? This is a huge possibility here. Yeah. For this high crime of negotiating peace, he lost command of Fort Lyon. And command was instead given to getting Major Anthony. But Winecoop will keep popping up in the story. Eventually, Chivington and Evans were convinced.

Vince that these talks were a good idea and they sat down with them in September. They don't go well because that tends to happen when 50% of a negotiating table doesn't actually want to negotiate. The reason for this is that Governor Evans wasn't actually trying to get anyone to come to the peace table. Rather, he was trying to see which native peoples were involved in the war and which ones weren't. As he put it in his letters, he's trying to figure out their mindset. We already know that both he and Chivington, who was also president at the talks, want war to further their political careers. But you can also tell because the peace talks mostly consisted of them, just threatening the chiefs

who came and not offering them anything in return. Like, when the chiefs straight up said that he was worried that Chivington or Evans might kill him or some of his men during the talks because of their attitude. And the Americans just kind of shrugged and say, maybe we will. Come and see, find out. Even after all this, Chivington tells the gathered chiefs say, hey, you really want peace? We can negotiate later. This winter, when you all kind of like circle the wagons for the winter, as native people

generally did, they stopped moving around to last out the winter. Come to Fort Lyon, camp outside, we'll give you aid in supplies, and then we'll negotiate. We'll have time. And as Evans pointed out, like, you guys, you fight in the spring and summer, we can fight in the winter. Remember that. This is a little bit more a threat on top of it as well. Now, the chiefs were not happy with his arrangement at all, but Winecoop again came out and

said, look, guys, just come to the fort. We'll figure it out. Black Kettle trusted him, so they agreed. By November, groups of native bands began appearing around Fort Lyon. But now Wine Cop, remember, he had lost command. And Major Anthony tells him to get the fuck away from the fort because he has standing orders from Governor Evans and Chivington to shoot any native people who dared get too close. That was when Winecop, who was waiting for his stage coach that would eventually take him to Fort Riley, Kansas, and his next command, rides out to meet with Black Kettle, telling him to camp about 40 miles away and a bend on Sand Creek. Winecoop says that Anthony wasn't aware of the agreements and the arrangements in place,

and it would simply take time for Chivington Nevens to come from Denver, straighten the whole situation out. And to be clear here, Wine Cop thinks this is true. Winecoop has no reason to lie to him. Black Kettle agrees and some allied Arapaho under a chief name Newatt go with him, leaving behind their warriors who flatly refuse to go along with him. with them. This is a greater schism in Cheyenne society between the council and the military societies, which we'll go into later in our next episode on this general topic. But there's a cultural shift

happening. And this is the council being more peace minded and the military society's ideology effectively boiling down to, these white motherfuckers can't be trusted. We have to kill them. Yeah, it's kind of a real split in like possibilities. And I can't really blame. either side, to be honest. Both sides have their merit. That's the only both sides is the I'm going to do on this episode. Winecoop asks his men to hang out, flying American flag, along with a white flag,

to show to everybody that they meant peace. And this is something that Black Kuddle agrees to because he had actually been given an American flag a year before and told him he would never be threatened as long as he flew it. So that's exactly what he did. Owing to the fact that most of the Cheyenne warriors from the societies refused to travel to San Creek

meant that Black Kettle's band was mostly made up of the very old, the very young, and women. They camped out at Sand Creek, waiting for future negotiations, which would almost certainly move them closer to the fort, just like they had agreed to. The tribe is working under the idea that they are under the protection of the United States.

It's almost like they have intentionally moved them there to collect them in one place, making it easier to route them and kill them. Quite possibly. This is when Chivington shows back up at Fort Lyon on November 28th, with the third Colorado at his back, all of whom are only a few weeks away from their enlistment running out. And remember how much they're desperate to do some killing. Being the ranking officer, he begins to order soldiers from the first Colorado and the first

New York, who are also stationed there, to be put under his command and then order them to ride out to Black Kettle's camp. He tells his officers that they mean to destroy the native camp, and several of his officers immediately warned him not to do this. They were there for people. and they're under American protection. One of these men in particular might be my favorite person from American military history and a man that does not get enough attention,

Captain Silas Sol. Also, sick fucking name. I was about to say, that is like a fucking 40K name. Soul is so interesting to me. He was born into a hardcore abolitionist family and worked with them as a child and teenager

to smuggle slaves to freedom as a member of the Underground Railroad. He was known as a conductor in the Underground Railroad. After this, he moves to Kansas to join the armed abolitionist Jhawker movement and actively fought slavers. He worked with

John Brown and helped get abolitionists out of jail. Yes. The only reason that Silasol was not involved in John Brown's activities that led to his death was because John Brown told him not to. Silasol

plotted to get John Brown out of prison, but he was executed too quickly. But he wasn't too late to try and save several of John Brown's men. He had a whole plot. He had some shooters ready to go to get them out of jail. But the men refused to be broken out of jail because they wanted to be killed to be martyrs for the cause. So Sol allowed them to do that.

Soul was also known for being incredibly smart and being able to convince people of changing their views regarding slavery if they sat down and talked to them. Though if he failed, he was just as comfortable with violence. Ha, ha, yes. He carried a bowie knife and a revolver on him at all times and used them frequently against slavers. Oh, hell. Why is there not a movie about this guy?

It gets better. And simultaneously worse. And I also have no idea why. I have no idea why there's not more attention paid to Silas Soul. It was for this reason that he quickly joined the Union Army when the Civil War started because he saw it as a war against slavers. And as a young officer, his men absolutely loved him. he treated them like equals like they were people

he sat down at eight dinner and drank with them joining the Union Army like you're joining the US Army after 9-11 This has nothing to do with anything but he was also known for being in close correspondence

with American poet Walt Whitman Of course Walt Whitman had correspondence with the weirdest fucking people that's just like when you look at like all the writers and poets and like generally like people who are known

creatives for the next 80 years. They just had the weirdest connections like fucking William Faulkner, Walt Whitman, Mark Twain. They were just writing letters to anyone. If you got them a letter, they would write one in response. But Sol and Whitman apparently had been writing each other for peers. Walt Whitman, unlike another person who was famous for responding to correspondence, is not in the Epstein files.

That is correct. Yeah. I knew we were going there, too. Unlike Chivington, who remember was also an abolitionist, the same thought process that led Seoul to his ideology didn't suddenly give him a blind spot regarding native people. Seoul also took part in the fighting of the Confederate invasion of New Mexico and was really fucking mad that afterwards he was sent

to effectively occupy native land and police native people rather than fight more Confederates in the South. We can, of course, argue how good a man can be owing to the fact that he was taking part in the subjugation of native peoples. By no accounts did he take part in any of the wanton slaughter that you generally think of when you think of the American West, but file this in the whole, how can you be a good man in a horrible organization folder?

I personally cannot argue regarding this due to personal biases. Exceptions that prove the rule. Yeah, we all have layers like an ogre. It's like an onion, Joe. That's the, that's the... That's the Shrek joke, Tom. Yeah, I know. I know.

I was six when Shrek joke. I came out. Fuck you. Fuck you. God damn it. However, when given orders to attack Black Kettle's camp, Silasol refused, saying, quote,

any man who take part in such murders knowing the circumstances like we do is a low-lived cowardly son of a bitch. He told this to his commanding officer. Oh, hell yeah. This guy rocks. Two other officers, Joseph Kramer and James Connor,

also objected. Silas Sol was like, organizing the young officers to refuse to take part in this. Chivington threatened to hang Silas Sol on the spot for inciting a mutiny if he didn't back down. And Silas Sol told him, no. Try me, bitch. Yeah, let's fucking go.

You wouldn't be the first old white man I've stabbed with this knife. Sol told Chivington to his face, what you're ordering is mass murder. Chivington flew into a rage saying, quote, damn any man who is in sympathy with the Indians, to which Silas Sol said, Then Damn Me. Someone make a fucker movie about this guy.

On the 29th, after a long night of drinking, Chivington ordered his soldiers to surround Black Kettle's camp, giving an order to kill anyone they saw. According to eyewitness accounts explicitly stating that no prisoners were to be taken. Silasol again flatly refused to send his men into combat, or slaughter, and ordered them to stay where they were or he would shoot them. They obeyed their commander. Silasol's company did not take part in the slaughter. Unfortunately, soul only commanded one company,

and Chivington begins bombarding the native village with artillery. Men begin firing their rifles and pistols. Other men charge in on horseback, and absolute utter violent chaos takes hold. Remember I said Chivington's a bad commander? Well, he's surrounded a village and sent men on all sides down. into it while hitting it with artillery. How many Native Americans are in the camp?

Anywhere between four and six hundred. Okay. And how many people did Chivington have? About 400-ish. Okay. However, Silas Sol and his men refuse to take part. A few other men from other companies also refuse to take part, mostly inspired by Silas Sol's men sitting there and refusing to move. So 400-ish.

But also remember, there's no warriors in this camp. These are all civilians. Yep. So before long, the American soldiers are shooting one another by accident, all while trying to kill innocent people within the camp who are all running for their lives. So soldiers in Chivington begin to think this is actually a battle. They're getting shot at,

which is a belief that continues to this day in some places. Hence why, when you look at it in some corners of the world, internet, maybe your local university, it's still called the Battle of Sand Creek. Yeah, it's great to see the military prowess of the Dregs Regiment. Yeah, you know, blue on blue. Quite literally, because they're blue jackets as well. There is no battle, though. I cannot stress this enough. There's a few guns present in the village, as you'd expect for hunting and the like,

but the warriors aren't there. There was even a guard posted to watch the village horses. That's how much these people believe they're under the protection of the same army that was now killing them under the flag. Mind you, that they were flying. According to George Bent, a mixed race frontiersman and oddly Confederate War veteran, who was

camping with black kettle. A guy who is just like modern day incomprehensible politics like this guy would have had the best flags in his bio. George Bent is an interesting character and we'll talk about him on our next episode as well. He was Cheyenne

mixed with white. His dad was Cheyenne, his mom was white. And when the Civil Wars started, he joined the Confederate military because the Confederate military officer of the unit that he joined had fought with his father during the Mexican-American War. And it was like owed him something. Also, add into the fact he's Nick Cheyenne and now they're fighting the U.S. government, the Confederates had a lot of lying to native populations about things that, how things would look if they defeated the union and things of that nature. Bent fights in a couple of battles and then fucking desserts.

Lova. According to Bent, the village thought it was so safe that when they heard the hooves of the American cavalry, they thought it was a herd of Buffalo. Like they never saw this coming. The pro-Sivington and therefore pro-Army side of the story says that the native people had built rifle pits. Sometimes in their tellings, they call them trenches in order to fight from. However, virtually every other witness statement, including that of Silas,

soul, who is literally right there, he's watching it take place, says that there is literally nothing that could be considered a defensive work built at all. And I know who I'm going to trust in the situation. However, when it became clear what was happening was happening. The older men in the village ran for their guns and began firing back, trying to buy enough time for the women and children to run away. Others grabbed knives and hatchets or any weapon they can get their hands on and charged at the soldiers trying to fight them off. But it's hopeless. There's there's no, they don't stand a chance. The defense does not last long.

And what follows is just unspeakable slaughter. Men, women, and children are butchered is the only way that we can describe it. Their bodies are mutilated. According to some eyewitnesses, American soldiers were scalping people while they were still alive. And they took dozens of scalps.

They cut off genitals, ears, and fingers of the dead and strung them on their horses to take back to Denver as war trophies. There were a few white people in the camp, traders and friends of the tribe who tried to intervene and they were ignored. Chivington didn't have them murdered.

However, anyone of mixed race, of which there were a few, fell under the order that there was no prisoners to be taken. Obviously, we know Bent survived, but so did his half-brother Charlie, thanks to the fact they knew a guy named Jim Beckworth, who was an old mountain man from the area who was working for Chish,

Chivington as a scout. Other mixed race people they caught in the Cheyenne camp were arrested, taken out back, and shot. Bacch, no. As soon as Chivington got back to the fort, he relayed the story to his commander, calling it a glorious victory by his, quote, noble soldiers. He claimed to kill 600 warriors, which was an outrageous lie. Crimes against humanity aside, if it was true, would have been the largest victory over Native American warriors. in American history almost. He and his men paraded

into Denver as conquering heroes. Throngs of civilians greeted them and some of the body parts that they had cut off the dead bodies were used as props in the local Denver theater performances. Oh, that's fucking disgusting

and so grim. Jesus Christ. Yep. America is a nation founded on blood and must be destroyed. Especially Denver. A sentence I never thought it would leave my mouth. I hate Denver now. I always hated the Colorado Avalanche. Now I have a good fucking reason. Yeah, it started here and it ended when they made South Park. Yep. Norma Jean's new album, Denver must be laid to waste. The death told the Sand Creek massacre will never really be known for

certain, but it's thought to be between one and 200. So Chivington is a bloodthirsty psycho, but he's also a fucking shitty liar. The American side lost 24 killed and 52 wounded, virtually all of them from friendly fire. This is also tested to by Silas Sol's testimony that native fighting took very few American lives, if any. And we would probably never know what happened here

if it wasn't for Silas Sol, who immediately, upon witnessing what was happening, took notes. And as soon as he could, he sent his testimony to the only other person he knew in uniform that might be on his side, Major Winecoop. Obviously, there were native

survivors of this massacre, but nobody in the American government or America at large was going to listen to their testimony. I hate having to point that out, but when you're a government based on racial genocidal policies, you're not exactly going to listen to the complaints of your victims. Other officers on Seoul's side did the same. Other witnesses, namely a different mixed-race frontiersman named George Greer, who had managed to run away, put pen to paper, and sent it to Winecoop as well. Eventually, Winecoop sent what amounted to be a dossier to Washington, D.C., about the slaughter at St. Creek. Within weeks, the official report of a resounding victory was shattered. By 1865,

both Congress and the military launched an official investigation into the massacre. But the most important one was the investigation conducted by something called the Joint Committee for the conduct of the war. We actually talked about this before on our episode about just general corruption during the union effort in the Civil War, this body was formed to just look into the conduct how things played out, both on the battlefield and logistically,

to make sure that so much underhanded shit wasn't taking place, right? Now, remember, this investigation and this Congress, for that matter, and 99% of the people in the army, were virtually all in favor of genocetal warfare against native people, as we know today.

I love when the cops investigate themselves. But here's the interesting part, Tom. They were all fucking horrified about the evidence that was gathered by Winecoop. Ah, interesting. Another important thing to remember here is the concepts of war crimes, genocide, crimes against humanity. This doesn't exist yet. And it certainly doesn't exist in the United States for the purposes of criminal charges against a serving officer of the U.S. Army fighting native people.

Chivington had done something so grossly terrible in their own eyes. It broke the operating system of American military justice. Really, the only way he could have. ended up facing criminal charges, ending up in prison maybe, was if they found him to be violating an order of some kind, because that's what military justice looked like in the 1800s. But he didn't violate an order. Governor Evans had ordered him to do what he did. The concept of an illegal order, so horrible that you were honor bound to disobey it, did not exist yet either. This put Silas Sol in an interesting spot, because he's called to testify by the committee, and he willingly does

so. And the committee purposely make sure not to fuck him over by asking him directly if he disobeyed an order giving to him by Colonel Chivington. Because the committee knew he'd be admitting to a crime. So instead they simply

asked him like what happened before, what happened during, what happened after, and made sure not to ask like were you ordered to take part? Yeah. Because they would have to arrest him. Yeah. Interesting. like it's kind of, it's fascinating kind of like reading between the lines of like the intentions of the inquiry and like by specifically not asking him, did you disobey an order the intention of the whole thing?

Some of that is, is me working towards that conclusion, but it's only because nobody in the committee asked. You kind of have to put two and two together. Yeah. For his part, Schivington insisted that the official version of the story, the one that he gave is true. And everyone else is simply a fucking liar. He went so far as to accuse Winecoop, soul, and others as conspiring against him to make sure he never got promoted to general

and ruining his political career. Somewhat incredibly, in the dark corners of dickhead historians, some of whom might be writing the histories at your local schools in the United States. This story is told if it's actually true. And Chivington was simply an honest, noble man doing hard work

and was hung out to dry by some kind of cabal of junior officers. Some of those dickhead historians are listening to this episode and writing angry comments and emails to us as we speak. And to that I say, fuck you.

Come at me. Once again, try me bitch. Nate and I often joke, but not really joke on this show about for the US to investigate someone for war crimes means you're so insanely guilty that you've left the military with no choice but to do something about it.

But this is worse. Chivington had done something so unspeakably cruel to the American mind of the 1800s that Congress decided it needed to be looked into officially in the middle of the Civil War. Oh. A mass murder that may as well taking place on the fucking moon to people in D.C. was just horrible. Think of like where Sand Creek is to the D.C.ite's mind. They wouldn't be able to find it on a map. That is how they were so completely sure how guilty Chivington was.

But what is he guilty of? Chivington didn't kill anybody. And if he did, it's a war. Yeah, it's military justice and law in the 1800 just was not equipped to deal with this. But even in terms of like civil law, like Native Americans weren't viewed as on the same power as, you know, white people. So it's like, well, remember how does civil law apply if Native Americans are in citizens of the United States? Yep, they're actually a very good point. This fell into a blind spot.

And I'm not saying like Congress is just racking their minds, trying to find a way to find Chivington accountable and just came up blank. Like, no, I'm not saying that. I'm not fucking stupid. But it's very clear here that Congress would have pressed the military to charge him with something because of how like how personally outraged they were by his conduct. There was just nothing they could charge him with. Put him in front of the firing squad for it.

His boots aren't shiny enough. In cases like this, I fall into what I'll call the Nuremberg Doctrine, which is, we're so certain you did something horrible. We will write the law up on the spot so he could fucking kill you for it. You got guilty vibes. So you wore your saber on the wrong side. Okay, off with your head. Yep, yep.

But Chivington wasn't facing criminal charges. Like I've already said, those crimes didn't exist yet. Those charges didn't exist yet. Those ideas weren't even glimmer in Raphael Lempkin's eye yet. It's also as well, like the function of like, I suppose a congressional inquiry is not necessarily the end point of bringing criminal charges. It's more so like, oh, we need to find out what happened in order to form the basis of if there is a second legal step needed to be taken. Yeah, this committee's job is to investigate conduct, not bring charges necessarily, though they can. recommend them, and they pep. And before anybody says anything, this is a problem that the U.S.

would have after the Civil War as well, where they didn't really have the legal framework to hold people accountable for, let's call them, gross crimes. Not treason, because there's generally an amnesty in place. People are allowed back into the fold if they swear allegiance to the United States. Not saying I agree with that either. Different conversation. For example, there's a prison warden in the Confederacy. We did an episode on in Andersonville. And they considered his administration of that prison camp so abhorrent that he was executed. But that was about it. So when it came to executing one of their own, there's nothing for that.

But investigation into his conduct was damning. The committee found that Chivington, quote, deliberately planned and executed a foul and dastardly massacre. And that he, quote, surprised and murdered in cold blood, Indians who had every reason to believe they're under the protection of the United States. The U.S. government apologized officially for what happened to the Cheyenne and promised to work on a treaty in the future that would include reparations for the crimes of Sand Creek. The U.S. government apologizing to Native Americans. I think that would happen in the 1860s, but would not happen in 2026.

And I should point out here that this is a treaty. between the United States and native people. It doesn't go anywhere. There is an official apology, but the reparations never show up. We could assume that lying John fucking stole them. I don't know. That's about as good as it gets

as far as the government's concerned. And while Chivington could have possibly been recommended for charges under military law in the results of the investigation, maybe some kind of technicality, like dereliction of duty or something like that, if I'm really going to stretch it. But instead, he resigned his commission

became a civilian. And that would have protected him enough because if you're a civilian, can't be charged military crimes. And then there was a post-sivor amnesty, which meant he was immune from any kind of wartime prosecution anyway. In reality, the repercussions he faced for his role in commanding this massacre was reduced to his reputation being ruined for the rest of his life. And to be clear here, he really didn't do a whole lot to remedy that

because he continued to be a massive piece of shit until the day he died. For starters, one of his sons died in a, quote, mysterious drowning incident. and then he swooned his own daughter-in-law and married her. Oh, no. And then she had a petition to court for a divorce because Chivington just abandoned her. He tried to sue the government to pay him for damages because of the investigations that ruined his reputation. And when that failed, he tried to get the government to pay him for personal property that had been damaged by native people during his slaughter of them. Both of those lawsuits failed.

He married another person, stole money from her family, abandoned her too. He tried to run for office in Ohio but had to bail because everyone kept bringing up that whole massacre thing. And that was real downer for voters because remember what he did was considered disgusting, even to Americans. I'm not saying that Americans had like standards about the things happening to native people. But like a lot of societies living through a genocide, they don't want to look at them. They don't want to look at the crimes. They need to be in arm's length. And when we're suddenly reading in the newspaper about what,

happened at Sand Creek? Oh, oh my stars. How could this man do that? Yeah. Finally, he returned to Colorado and got a job as Denver's corner, but got fired because he got found that he stole about 50 bucks from a dead body. I thought he was going to be actually stealing the bodies, but that's a little bit better, I suppose. He died in 1894, pretty much as an outcast. John Evans, a governor of the Colorado territory, was removed from office by President Andrew Johnson, who took office after Lincoln was assassinated. Imagine doing something so fucking brutal

that Andrew Johnson fires you. Good God. Oh, God. Now, Winecoop leaves the army. He goes on to become an agent for the BIA, at least for a little while. He was one of those guys who joined an institution to change it for the better,

because he believed in the mission, as stated, but not in practice. So, of course, that means he resigned within three years when he finally understood that the institution was unchangeable and only existed to brutalize native people. But don't give him too many props because he's still

Wine Coop, because he was already a sheriff once, a corrupt sheriff. He wanted to be a prison warden. So yeah, Winecoop is more layers than your average ogre. Now, the real ending of this story is the story of Silas Sol. Seoul testified against Chivington

and was one of the main reasons why this investigation even got off the ground the first place. He was not long for this world though. No, not my homeboy, Silas. Two months after he gave his testimony, two weeks after the end of the Civil War, Silas Sol is still serving as an officer in the army, but had been relegated to being a military provost, which is for people who don't know, it's kind of like a military cop.

It's a duty that nobody really wants, and Sol himself said it was given to him as a kind of punishment for being the U.S. Army's first ever whistleblower. On April 23rd, 1865, he responded to the complaint of soldiers drunkenly firing off guns in Denver. And when he walked over to see what was going on, he ran into a guy named Charles Squire, who had a gun out. Soul shot him in the hand, trying to disarm him. But Squire then shot him in the face, killing Silas Sol. Squire had previously been a soldier under Chivington's command and was an outspoken supporter in his defense. If that isn't weird for you, Tom, it gets weirder, Squire was arrested for the murder of a military officer, but the officer who arrested

him, because shit was weird back then, an officer arrested him, brought him to like a hotel room for detainment, and the next day they was going to transport him to the jail. And that night, the arresting officer dies of a drug overdose. What? This allows Squire to escape and run to New York City. What? Yes, let me just like smoke. some opium while my prisoner is chained to the floor. It's generally believed that he was murdered by a third party. Oh, we're getting like some Jack Ruby shit going on right now. We are.

Because after this, despite being wanted for murder, Squire lives quite openly in New York for a while. He works jobs. He has like pretty powerful connections in local government and his family is quite wealthy. But eventually he jumps on a ship, goes to South America. there he dies in 1869 in a freak locomotive accident

that ends with his legs being crushed because that's just how guys died back then yeah nobody's well actually people are still dying of freak locomotive accidents it's just like happening in Spain now yeah that's true after which point his body was transport back to New York City where he was buried with full military honors

despite the fact again that one of the last things he did before going AWOL was murdering an office officer. What the fuck? It's the official stance of the state of Colorado that Silas Sol was assassinated for his role in the investigation and that Squire had been paid by someone to do it, probably Chivington. Jesus Christ.

And he was killed eight days after Abraham Lincoln. Yep. Fucking. I know which one of those I am more sad about. I'm a Silas Sol truther now. This is finally the conspiracy theory I believe in. This dude fucking rules. He's so cool.

Yeah, I fucking love him. There's no good way to end this episode. The slaughter at Sand Creek decimated the traditional leadership structures of the Cheyenne. It killed many of the peace-minded chiefs who were willing to work with the United States, leaving those who rightfully distrusted the Americans, which would only lead to more war, which of course is what the United States wanted. There's no way the story was going to end any other way than what happens when a genocetal superpower is allowed to brutalize people at will.

thankfully something that has never happened again and probably never will. Hmm. Ah, the end, I guess. Silas old was 26 when he fucking got shot. Holy fuck. Yep. When that man was like 13, he was smuggling people away on the underground railroad. Yeah.

I mean, like, you know, in this episode, I suppose we didn't necessarily talk a huge amount from the perspective of the Native Americans. And I think that's a different episode. I'm sure it's one that you have probably thought about riding already. but it's like just the pure kind of like evil of Chivington for no reason at all is just kind of shocking and like how there's so many points where like people could have been engaged with in good faith and we're like no we're just going to kill everyone yeah um i think that's one the things that stood out to me so much because we've talked about i don't even know how many

massacres at this point on the show in the almost eight years we've been doing it in the over three years, you've been on the show now, that this one stuck out to me because it's a massacre that the, like, the U.S. government didn't want and happened anyway. And this is not absolving the U.S. government, of course not. But, like, Chivington and Evans wanted violence to further their political goals of statehood, a state governorship, and possibly Colorado's first congressional seat. Chivington is interesting to me because he should have been sitting right alongside Silasol. if you follow his, not only his previous political ideology, but as religious convictions, if he still had any, but he sold himself out for political gain.

That's why the story between Chivington and Silas Soul is so interesting to me. One man is a true believer, and the other one's a fucking worm. And Silas Soul, despite dying very young, being murdered for doing the right thing, having true convictions, he wrote a lot of good stuff before he went. and one of those was effectively before he died. He kind of explained that he's like, no, you should always try to talk to your enemies and the people who mean to hurt others,

but if you can't turn them with words, you got to shoot him. And, you know, maybe things would have been a little bit differently if you're just gun chippington down instead of Black Kettle's camp, but probably not, you know, there's a few memorials for Silas Sol in Colorado.

One of them is at St. Creek. arguably there's still more Silas soul things in Colorado than there are things commemorating Sand Creek. This really does seem to be something that they want to just not talk about. And another interesting part, because it will come up, we'll eventually cover, you know, Wounded Knee. Wounded Knee has a lot of historical baggage behind it,

which only keeps getting brought back to the surface because Wounded Knee, a lot like San Creek, was reported as a battle. Soldiers got the Medal of Honor for, the massacre at Wounded Knee. Now, the Medal of Honor back in the day was a little bit different than today. It was given away quite easily. And it was pretty much the only medal for military service that existed back then.

But still, several Medal of Honors were given out for the slaughter at Wounded Knee. None were given out at St. Creek. Because even the government was like, oh, God, we can't. And it keeps coming up because, you know, he'd heck Seth. I will limit what I say about him for legal reasons at this moment. he just comes out of nowhere and says like oh the medals of honor given out at wounded knee will not be revoked because they haven't been revoked

I don't think a medal of honor has ever been revoked they fucking should be a lot of other things should happen I don't really know how to end this other than like I fucking hate all of those I hate it I hate it I'm sorry I hope people stuck this out people maybe a little bit squeamish about the topic

or the details we went over I tend to fall into the category of learning about the stuff can't hurt you. It can only armor you for the future. So you can't be lied to about the past. But Tom, we do a thing in the show called Questions from the Legion. If you'd like to ask us a question, you can support us on Patreon. Get access to our Discord. You can ask us on Discord.

Question today is, what was your favorite recent concert you attended? Ooh. I went to see Swans in November. That was fucking sick. I saw... Was the warm-up band Geese? No. No, there was no warm-up band.

Swans played for two and a half hours and played six songs. It was great. All right. I saw dead guy, the following day actually, which was great because they'd never toured in the UK before. Or I had never played in London before. And like for a band that like broke up in like the early 2000s and then released an album last year that is as good as the album

they released 30 years beforehand like fucking incredible. Ooh, what else? On that George R.R. Martin release schedule. Yeah, I mean, and actually that's not fair because their album came out. Yeah. I'm trying to think who else did I see

recently. Honestly, in the last year, two of the highlights both actually in Wembley. I saw Oasis in Wembley. Any fights on stage? No, but I managed to get tickets two hours before they went on stage. Nice. I was in the back of a cab, having picked something up from town and got a text saying like,

oh, do you want to, there's two tickets to Wembley to see Oasis. They're on in like two hours. I live quite close to Wembley, so I was like, fuck yeah, obviously, and they were being sold for face value. And then I saw Lanna Del Rey in the summer last year. Fantastic, really, really good. Unfortunately, I did have to get up at four in the morning to go get. a train to Bristol for a tattoo convention the following day. And if anyone has been to a gig in

Wembley, you will know it's a nightmare trying to get the train after a gig, because it's, there's one concourse that they essentially shove everyone into. So imagine like 50,000 people trying to get the train at once. No, thank you. That sounds like something engineered to make me want to rip my own skin off. Yeah. I'm not much of a concert guy. I know that probably isn't surprised anybody who listens to the show that I am the least of the musically inclined. Joe likes staying inside at home. Why wouldn't I? I pay the rent.

All of my stuff is there. That is the most formally broke opinion that you have. It's like, I pay for a, why would I pay to go out and do something else when I already pay for this? All of my stuff is there. But I think the, actually the last concert I went to is still my favorite one I went to a long time.

You were there. on my birthday. Yeah, last year. After our live show, I believe it was. Yep. Yeah. In June, we went to see a day to remember at the O2 in Brixton. That was lovely.

I had a lot of fun. We missed the Brickson hot dog guy. I did get to bring you to the Yardy Pub, though, which was great, where they only take cash. We had like points of Carlsberg, I think. And we negotiated a price because they only took cash. And I think we only had a tenor. Yeah, I'd like take.

10 pounds. What can we get for 10 pounds? I hate to be fair, the lady who's working there gave me back change as well. It was great. It was a lovely experience. Data remembers one of my favorite bands. They killed it on stage. Yeah. Yeah, it was great. I keep trying to find more stuff to get them to, but a lot of

my favorite bands, they'll do like a European tour once for a couple of years. And I missed like the first wave of them. So they're not going to be background for like three, four more years. Maybe I'll catch him on the next go around. We'll see. What you need to do is during the summer in the UK is when because

outbreak festivals on, which it used to predominantly be like a hardcore festival now, it's kind of expanded out a little bit. They all of the kind of like hardcore and kind of emo bands all tour the UK in the space of like two months because they're all working towards playing outbreak. It's usually the 25th of June. Yeah, there's a festival here in the Netherlands that they hit on their way back to London. I haven't gone to the festival in the Netherlands because it's kind of out in the middle of fucking nowhere. Yeah. Also, the Netherlands is like, do you want to go to a gig in Amsterdam or Tilburg? Yes. That's it. Those are your two options. And getting to Tilburg from Den Ha should not be difficult. It's a small country. Take a train. But NS, our national rail service,

is actively tearing itself apart thanks to, you know, Dutch neoliberalism. So every time I've got every single time I've attempted to get on a train to Tilburg for a concert. My train has broken down and I've not made the concert. Yeah, see, I am quite soon for context I've spent the past year working from home. Very soon I will have to commute every day. And I am not looking forward to having to deal with TFL Monday to Friday. It's not going to be fun. But it is what it is.

We'll see if that is in my future cards as well. But Tom, I believe that's a podcast. You host other podcasts. Plug those podcasts. Listen to Beneath Skin, the show about the history of everything told you, the history of tattoos. And listen to Bloodwork a show about the economy of violence, which Joe will be on very soon talking about a topic that's near a dear to his heart.

Only happy things, I'm sure. Yes, we are going to talk about the economy of blood work, a painting Warhammer figurines. Yeah, we're going to talk about Warhammer figurines and Final Fantasy 8. Yeah. This is the only show that I host. Thank you for listening to us.

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Buy my books. More on that in the future as well. And until next time, build a really big statue of Silas Soul somewhere in America. Build a bronze statue of Silas Soul like Robocop. Staring down threateningly at Denver.