Living The Red Life - Hiring & Writing Perfect Copy For Your Business w/Kevin Rodgers

Episode Date: September 23, 2024

In this episode, seasoned copywriter Kevin Rogers shares his vast expertise in the world of copywriting. With years of experience, Kevin has become a trusted voice in the industry, known for helping businesses craft persuasive, data-driven copy that converts. He discusses his journey from stand-up comedy to copywriting and how the skills of engaging an audience on stage have translated into his ability to captivate readers through effective copy. Kevin emphasizes the need for entrepreneurs to take an active role in the copywriting process, explaining that while delegating to experts is essential, business owners must provide clear direction to ensure the copy aligns with their brand voice.Throughout the conversation, Kevin highlights the common mistakes business owners make when hiring copywriters, particularly when it comes to recognizing bogus professionals. He also dives into practical strategies, such as the importance of refreshing ad copy regularly and understanding the different mindsets required when writing for platforms like Facebook versus Google. The episode wraps up with Kevin stressing that hiring a skilled copywriter is an investment that can drive significant returns, as great copy directly impacts sales and conversions.CHAPTER TITLES1:06 - Meet Kevin: A Veteran in the Copywriting Space2:40 - The Importance of Delegating Copywriting to Experts4:46 - The 90% Rule: Getting the Right Lead and Hook5:30 - How to Avoid Hiring a Bogus Copywriter7:23 - Why Data-Driven Copy Matters More Than Ever9:05 - Writing Ad Copy for Facebook vs. Google: A Different Mindset10:20 - Finding the Balance Between Selling and Creativity12:45 - Copy Tweaks That Skyrocket Conversions15:00 - Emphasizing Ad Refreshes: How a Small Boost Translates to Big Gains17:45 - Why a Good Copywriter is an Investment, Not an ExpenseConnect with Kevin Rodgers:WEBSITE - https://copychief.com/IG - TherealcopychiefYT - Copy ChiefConnect with Rudy Mawer:LinkedInInstagramFacebookTwitter

Can you talk through how to find a copywriter and how to hire them, how to make sure you don't get a bogus one? Rule number one, do not post on Facebook that you're looking for a copywriter. Say goodbye to your DMs. These people can barely reply to me in a readable form saying, I'll write the copy free and if it does this, give me 20 grand. It's not transactional. At the end of the day, what people want to feel when they read copy, that this person's walked in my shoes and they get it and they can help me. My name's Rudy Moore, host of Living the Red Life podcast, and I'm here to change the way

you see your life in your earpiece every single week. If you're ready to start living the red life, ditch the blue pill, take the red pill, join me in Wonderland and change your life. What's up, guys? Welcome back to another episode of Living the Red Life. Today, we're going to talk about coffee, which if you don't know what that is, it's selling via words. It's a big, big piece of business. In fact, it's something I say I've made millions of dollars

because I got great at coffee. And we've got Kevin joining us today. He's one of the OGs in the coffee space, if you don't know who he is. And he's actually helped me find lots of amazing copywriters over the years. So Kevin, welcome to the show. Good to be here, Rudy. Appreciate it, man. So let's start at the baseline. I say one of the biggest problems most entrepreneurs have is they

can't write good copy. And I got lucky that I became really good at it and wrote lots of million dollar funnels for myself. But I think it's the first step. And I say a lot of people are doomed to fail if they can't either write good copy or find a good copywriter. So can you just explain, A, if you think that's true and agree, and why that's true? I think it's true for a couple of reasons.

Some people are good. And in some ways, the business owner is the best person to, I wouldn't say write the copy, but drive the copy. Right. So it's it really is a partnership between you and the copywriter. You know, they're the ones who geek out on copy and study what's working, what isn't. And they're good writers, though they wouldn't be in the business. And so just not everybody's a good writer, just like some people just aren't good at math.

Their brain doesn't work that way. However, you know, the business owner knows why they started the business, why it's uniquely qualified to help the people it helps. And so if they work with a copywriter who can take everything that's in your brain and put it into a very lucid, clear offer, that's exciting. Then you hit a home run yeah and i think that's like the biggest so i you know i have a big mastermind coaching group and we do see a clear difference of like we have half of the people that can go away and start writing their own copy with some of our coaches supporting them and then we have some people that like it's kind of like you you're banging your head against the wall and it's just like hey that's not your skill set right and everyone should know what

they're great at and not great at and then we tell them like look if you don't delegate this and find a copywriter um you're never going to be successful because it's like having like i try and teach them like imagine you the only way you made sales was for a cool center and all the sales reps so like it's like that's what bad copy is right 100 yeah i mean you got to trust somebody to be your voice yeah uh and you know look the other thing is uh two things with business owners number one they're visionaries which means they have a lot of ideas and they're trying to, I suffer this myself sometimes writing my own copy for 10 years. I want to tell them everything that the thing can do for them. But what a copywriter will help you do is understand the two or three things that they

really care about and emphasizing those and let everything else be a bonus or a surprise. And the other thing is you're busy as a business owner and you know a writer needs some headspace a good you know two three four hours to sit down and get in the zone and do that work and if you've got people pinging you and waiting on you for other stuff it's really hard to make that happen yeah i just when i used to ride all my own funnels, I would do them on airplanes and I just wouldn't buy Wi-Fi intentionally. Right. I would do them like late at night or weekends when most of the staff are off. Because, yeah, I mean, like and now I have, you know, I grew to 110 employees last year.

So I go like I couldn't imagine like it's hard for me to even write like a sentence to an employee at Lindy. We're going on these days like I can't spend in six hours on a landing page. I'll be like I sentence to an employee at Lindy where we'll keep going on these days. Like I can't imagine spending six hours on a landing page copy like I used to, but, but I will tell you like learning that skill is so good. Cause even now I kind of like act as a copy chief to my copywriters and I'll give them a lead in and a hook. And, and honestly, I think that's like 90% of it. Like if you get that right, then good copywriter can take and run with it. But it's hard to find the copywriter that can like really give that like strong lead in hook

and like stuff. So I would love to ask you, you know, if a lot of our audience listening in, they're probably listening to this already and going, oh crap, maybe this is me. I've got crappy copy. What do I do now, Rudy, listening to this? I'm not very good at writing copy.

Can you talk through how to find a copywriter and how to hire them, how to make sure you don't get a bogus one? And also for my audience and a lot of entrepreneurs, they don't have the old school, I'll pay 10 grand sort of thing. They need someone that's maybe cheap and dirty to start hourly

so can you talk us through those 100 rule number one do not post on facebook that you're looking for a copywriter say goodbye to your dms and you'll you'll feel like these people can barely reply to me uh in in a readable form so this is what i do a lot of i connect business owners with copywriters that i that i vet that i've trained i know their experience level i know their uh availability i know their pricing i'll tell you what the sweet spot because that's the other thing you're going to get is a bunch of people saying, I'll write the copy free. And if it, and if it does this, give me 20 grand. That's not the relationship. It's not transactional. It is a relationship, Rudy, as I'm sure you know, and that's the difference. Right. Um, and I'll tell

you what the sweet spot, here's the problem for a freelance copywriter that, that when you understand it, things start to click when they're newer, they're super hungry and they have more talent than experience, right? And if they're doing a bunch of one-off, one-night-stand work for clients, they're not getting performance data. They're not even knowing if their stuff went live some of the time.

So what they really want is to see their stuff in action and learn how it did and hopefully be able to reiterate and have it do better. That's how they learn. That's how they grow. Well, it's funny. I've hired a bunch of copywriters and I literally say to them, send me, you know, the examples. But I'm like super data driven. Like we have a 12 page data dashboard. I get hourly reports. I know every lander click for a sales rep revenue for cool ball like you can't probably ask me a stat i don't know but so i ask them i'm like say i say send me the examples and then all the data for those funnels and landers and 99

percent they say either they don't know or they're old people they work for never told them and i'm like i'm like just lost you know it's insane right it's insane i know it's a problem that shouldn't exist and we did our copywriters actually have to do a weekly report in our company on all everything they're doing so they have to work with the tech team to pull the click-through rates to pull the best ass to pull the landing page pull the bounce rate to pull the heat maps of where people are dropping off and every you know i've hired hundreds of copywriters half of them hate me because i work them too hard and don't give them long half of them love me and say it was the best job ever because they learned so much and like been pushed and grown and and literally in six months a have more than they've learned in six years.

And I think following that data is like, is everyone being like, oh, copy sounds good or it doesn't? And as you know, sometimes it works when it shouldn't. And sometimes when you think you've got this piece, it's a total flop. Yeah. And that's why AI is adding a more confusing element to it, because if you don't know the difference, it sounds pretty good. Yeah. And that's why AI is adding a more confusing element to it, because if you don't know the difference, it sounds pretty good. Yeah. But it's not going to connect in a way. It's not going to get the details right. It doesn't have experience or experiences. And that's at the end of the day what people want to feel when they read copy that this this person's walked in my shoes and they get it and they can help me yeah and that's why coming back to what you said earlier like you know i think

the business owner can often if they're a good writer and they've got that side of the brain and stuff they can often write amazing copy like my first landing page that did millions i had so many copywriters come in and try and beat it never could because like i'd been a personal trainer for seven years before and so you've spent like hundreds of hours one-on-one with a client like subconsciously learning how they talk and their pain and it's just something that's very hard for a copywriter to to replicate so um i definitely think there's that there should be that synergy um and honestly what's kind of interesting too is some of our best copywriters and a couple have come from you

have gone on and become like actually great employees full time and like managers. And sometimes it's been a mistake in hindsight where they burn out because they weren't like good from, like they had the capabilities, but all the mindset leadership stuff

they didn't have but some of them actually gone on and become great like marketing managers once they started using all the data and and seeing all the pieces connect and some of them have made massive differences in my facebook ads and the ads because the ads these days the technical setup i say i could teach to anyone in 20 minutes it's the creatives that that make 90 of ads successful um so copywriters can have such a big impact across strategy ads everything right 100 everything and the more they know the better they can do yeah and so yeah that's this rule one if they're not to, they're not asking you questions. You talk about hiring, how to vet them, right? They should be asking you questions.

You need to go look for the answer. If they're not like you, Rudy, and walk around with every stat in their head all the time, they're going to be asking you things and you're like, damn, I should know that. Well, most entrepreneurs don't too. Like literally everyone in our mastermind, one of the first things is we give them an Excel sheet and show them how to start just pulling like the basic data on their

own stuff too you know yeah yeah and so that's their the the best ones are super hungry always curious uh and just driven to to beat the current controls in those numbers like you said you hired hundreds just to try to beat your control um and again that's how they learn they can't you know hand copying uh sales letters and all these things they tell copywriters to do to get better it's just practice you know they want to practice with purpose and make it real. So, you know, that, I mean, give a, give them a writing test, Rudy. Like that's the best way to, uh, find a good copywriter is, you know, have a call with them. If they seem like they know what they're talking about, get an idea of budget, uh, make sure you're, you're aligned there and then just ask them to do a simple copy test. And that's, again, more important than ever

because of ChatGPT. You got to make sure that they're the ones writing it, that they understand how to speak in your language and your voice. Yeah, it's funny because I've had long-term copywriters now with me a while. So I've not actually really hired a copywriter in the last like year.

So I can't imagine, like now i can't imagine it because i'm sure half of them are doing it all in chat gpt and we actually i we have hired one part-time guy to help on some social stuff but we actually encourage for that we said we want a copywriter that understands how to use chat gpt to condense time and do this kind of splinter method i teach where you take about one piece and make tons um but yeah i think probably really reading it and making sure it flows well saying that's the easiest way to catch if someone's using chat gpt wrong as if it sounds robot right so so i'm sorry go on and soon they're going to be marking things that this was written by a human and if you're building trust with your

audience and it's getting tagged that way that's going to kill trust why yeah i think seo is already starting i think youtube will start and then i think it will roll have a roll-on effect to email probably to right well it'll be low on so it's definitely interesting what what about so you know one more level practical then so okay everyone's listening they're like i want to start someone you know i've got a small budget maybe 10 hours a week to do you know some basic emails ads maybe a mini lander or whatever um where do they like where do they go to find this person email me directly i got them all in a lot and they're they're waiting waiting for an opportunity to to work with a client like that um kevin at copychief.com copy chief is the community i've

run for 10 years and this is what we do i started it because people were always asking me for good copywriters and copywriters are always asking where do i get all these great clients so i was like here everybody just meet in this forum and it's been 10 years and now we train them up and we work with them and uh and then we back them up so if you hire a copywriter through me they're in my community and they're working with high level copy chiefs they're getting their copy reviewed and looked at so you're not just hiring one person, right? You're hiring a whole team essentially. And what should someone pay? You know, as I know, obviously it's going to massively range, but what should someone, you know, someone's low budget starting out, what are they going to look to pay to get someone to do some bits and pieces as a test to get,

get them going in the whole world of hiring a less as copywriter yeah i mean to start um if they want me to like vet them and walk them to their door i charge 2500 for that service and then i stay with them after they hire people uh and then what they negotiate with the copywriter is between the two of them i'm not an agency i don't take a cut from anybody um and i even guide both parties through that because otherwise they're fumble around in the dark together right copywriters trying to guess how much they can charge the company's trying to see how little they can pay and all they need to do is communicate openly and say this is this is what i need to do it and this is what i can afford to pay and if it works it works and if not we send somebody else your way right it's just it shouldn't be that simple um but you know you think for a

couple of grand amounts they can get someone to do something yeah absolutely i experienced copywriters who um work in between two three on retainer to do some emails or uh you know beef up landing pages things like that um yeah so and that's all a lot of people need to start you know and i always i try and emphasize with them like i tell them the same with video too i'm like guys you pay maybe you spend a grand a day on facebook ads they spend in 30 grand a month like some really good ad refreshes every week and like a couple of really cool hooks and video ideas might have a 20 30 boost on your ads and that's like you know you're talking six nine grand with basic math there and you might only have to pay them three or two it's like it's a no-brainer and and you know we started to learn this so we actually

built internal sops where we did weekly ad refreshes for this reason. Because I think everyone with marketing and ads, like in life, they don't fix a disease until they get the disease, right? And you don't fix the ads burning out and the CPAs going too high or CPLs until they go too high. And then it's like, it takes weeks to recover. So like we, you you know so anyone listening like don't just hire a copywriter to do new ads when your ads start sucking because by the

delay it's going to take a month or two to recover you're maybe going to even rush the hire make a bad hire place a lot of stress on the copywriter if their ads don't work out the gate now you hate them and don't want to pay them. And then two more grand. And it's like, you know, businesses, especially in marketing, it's a case of always innovating. I always teach, it's always innovate. And a good copywriter can do that. You're speaking the gospel. I mean, that's everything I want to tell and do tell entrepreneurs.

You know, dig the well before you're thirsty. And it's an investment it should never be an expense after a couple of months of working together by the third month you should be seeing two three four five x return from your copywriter um and what about um what about like last couple of questions as we approach the time here? So people know they can come to you. You can help them place. You've talked about finding good copywriters. I would just love a couple of tips in general because obviously you're a great copywriter yourself.

In today's landscape, because I do think it's changed a lot in the last 10, 20 years, what makes great copy these days with social media? yourself like in today's landscape because i don't think it's changed a lot in the last 10 20 years like what makes great copy these days with like social media and and i think the blend of branding now is more important and people want to buy aren't just like old-school sales letters like how do you teach that these days yeah again just watching the market and understanding you know the great eugene schwartz always talked about market awareness and market sophistication. And everybody's seemingly more sophisticated now because they're being so exposed to so many ads. And so the edge you can have is really look at what other people are, how they're selling similar products to yours.

It's easy to go to Facebook ads library and see how long an ad's been running. How many ads are they running to the same landing page? Obviously that's producing fruit for them, right? So it's easy to do a little research and get an idea of what angles. And then also just having dialogue with your prospects, making sure you're hearing directly from them what really matters. Because as business owners, it's really easy for us to assume what we know what they need, what do they need to hear? And we're not trying to be dishonest or mislead them. But if we're focused on what we know is the core problem that they have, but they're stuck here on the surface of it, there's a major disconnect. And I say it one meaning that sounds so obvious. No one does that.

I'm like, survey. Once every six months, they are down. And I said, even in my fitness business, after like eight years as a trainer, and then a few years running big for millions of dollars, I still learned stuff that was valuable to the audience and the avatar. And to me, it wasn't that important. And I was like, oh, that's interesting. Let's test an ad, you know, in an email just about this topic. And so, yeah, I love that too. So Kevin, great, great stuff. I really appreciate this because I mean, it's such a big key piece to people being successful online.

And I do say like outsource the hardest parts, right? Like there's a lot of stuff in the business you can do. And if you have a low budget, like copywriting is like, you know, if you're building a house or redecorating your house like you can paint the walls but you're not you're not going to do the live electric probably like to me copywriting great example of that where you pay the money for that and paint your own walls if you're trying to save money so uh i i know um you know you've already mentioned it but just final question to wrap today what if they want to learn more about you, find great copywriters, can you just throw that link on the website one more time for everyone? Yeah, just go to copychief.com.

And my personal direct email is kevin at copychief.com. Be happy to have a chat with you and get you some good people. Great. Kevin, thanks so much for your time. This was also a great session and a great um and a great 101 on how to write a good copy find a good copywriter and why copy so important and no one better than yourself to learn these things from so thanks for coming on thank you bro thanks again for sending me so many amazing copywriters over the years uh it's been super valuable for my business and the community

you've got and uh guys go check him out and his whole community if you need copywriters, which you will in your business over time. So Kevin, thank you again. And guys, keep living the red life. Take care.