Living The Red Life - Joe Foster, The Founder of Rebook, Reveals His Life Lessons

Episode Date: November 27, 2023

Only a Handful Of Companies Make It To The 1 Billion $ Mark. Rudy believes that one of the best ways to learn is to study Billion $ Brands, the outliers, and reserve engineer how they did it.In today's episode, Rudy does exactly this, the incredible story of a world-leading apparel brand - Reebok. Join its founders Joe Foster and Rudy as they dive into the story and how they once conquered Nike and Adidas to race to the top. Learn the lessons going from 9 million to 900 million in just 4 years, how they expanded globally, and the failures along the way.During this episode, Rudy breaks down practical lessons Joe and Reebok experienced you can apply to any new or small business, and, the lessons that kept Reebok on track over several decades before Joe's exit. Just a few gems you'll learn in this episode include:The growth from 9 million to 900 million in 4 years (crazy!)The ups and downs of a global, billion-dollar $ brand.The BIG breaks, and big setbacks during Reebok's journey,Everyday lessons you can take from the giants, and apply to your business or start-up.What's happening now for Reebok?What's next for Joe, the founder, and what he's working on right now (Maybe you can help with?!)Grab your favorite Reebok swag and take a seat, this episode is a sprint to the top! (Literally!)Connect with Rudy Mawer:LinkedIn - www.linkedin.com/in/rudymawer/Instagram - www.instagram.com/rudymawerlifeFacebook - www.facebook.com/rudymawerlifeTwitter - www.twitter.com/rudymawer

In the mid to late 80s, we overtook Adidas, we overtook Nike. We became the number one global sports brand. We were a $9 million business when we moved into aerobics. And then when James Fonda bought a pair of Reeboks and used them in an exercise video, we were a $900 million. The only problem is that just as we got into America, my brother, who was a very keen athlete, unfortunately used to push himself far too much,

and he got cancer and he died. It made a lot of changes. A lot of things had to happen, but we made it through. What is the biggest thing you'd tell your younger self? It's difficult when you actually, whatever you do, you get number one. It's difficult to say,

but I guess I would have concentrated more on. My name's Rudy Moore, host of Living the Red Life podcast. I'm here to change the way you see your life in your earpiece every single week. If you're ready to start living the red life, ditch the blue pill, take the red pill, join me in Wonderland and change your life. Hello and welcome. Welcome back to another episode of Living the Red Life. Very special guest, someone that I never thought I would have on this podcast, but I'm very privileged to have

on, Joe Foster, the founder of Reebok. And you probably have noticed Reebok, you probably wore Reebok, and I'm sure today we're going to cover some amazing gems, stories, and lessons growing one of the most successful sporting apparel brands in history. Joe, welcome to the show. Thank you for the welcome. It's great to be on your show and it looks as though it's going to be absolutely fabulous. And I'm sure I'm going to learn an awful lot, if not tell other people an awful lot. But thank you for the invitation. No, my pleasure is all mine. We are recording this on Thanksgiving because we're both British. So you wouldn't normally get an episode recorded on Thanksgiving. But we're both British. We actually you guys live an hour away from where I was born

in the UK. And obviously, the UK is where it all began. Right. So I would love to maybe kick off with the founding story and how it all began and then became this worldwide sporting phenomena. I suppose I've got to England as an old country, so we've got a lot of history. Our family, the sports footwear business, our family has been in that since 1895. My grandfather, he founded J.W. Foster, which nobody knows of today, but in his day,

he knew all about influencing because by 1904, he had four world records in his day he knew all about influence and because by the by 1904 he had four world records in his in his shoes and by 1908 he had gold medals as well so it goes back that far he died though in 1933 i wasn't born till 1935 but i was born on his birthday. And that means that I had his name. He was called Joseph William. I am Joseph William, or Joe for short. But to not knowing him, and of course, by that time, his two sons, my uncle and father, had taken over his business. Unfortunately, they didn't communicate well at all.

And if you know the story of Addy Dassler and Rudy Dassler, they didn't communicate. Rudy left the company and set up Puma. With the Fosters, my father and uncle, they just kept feuding. So that didn't do any good for the business. Jeff and I, at the age of 18, we had to do national service. And that gives you a little bit of a different perspective on life. And when we came back and we recognized a failing company, they were losing the business. It was just going down. And although I tried to get my father to understand that there's not going to be a business here, we've got to do something different. He just said, look, when I've gone and your uncle's gone, this will be yours. You can do what you like with it. And all I could say to my father was, we don't want you to go,

but this company, this brand will be gone well before you've gone. It didn't make any difference. So Jeff and myself, we decided the only one way was to set up our own company, which eventually we did, and we set up in 1958 Mercury Sports Footwork. So that was our start. From there on, many things happened. It's pretty incredible how, I think that's one thing about the British, they're stubborn and they just push through, right?

That's what I noticed with a lot of the Brits. And it's incredible that you took that and then turned it into what it is today. And it's also funny that my mom was a gold medalist in triathlon, and I do a lot of talking about the correlation between business and sport, right? And the discipline and all the core values that make a great athlete also make a great business. So maybe that's another discussion for another day so let's fast forward a little i know that you started in the uk expanded overseas what were some of the biggest uh kind of breaking breakthrough moments for the brand over all the decades that

became helped you get to where you got to and becoming so famous around the world when jeff and i uh broke away from the family company and set up our set up mercury we then got all our problems when you set up a company it's what can go wrong we couldn't everything we couldn't register we couldn't register the name and there's a nice story in the book shoemaker's that how we changed that to Reebok. Four years into our business, Adidas told us that, oh, they thought that our silhouette was infringing the three stripes

because we had two stripes and a T-bar. So that was another one, but what we did find that, we looked at this, first of all, we thought, oh dear, what do you do? These are problems. Then we recognized,

no, they were opportunities. They were not problems, they were opportunities there was not problems there were opportunities it was an opportunity to find a better name which we think Reebok was a better name and also we changed our silhouette and we changed to a vector which is very recognizable now and the that Reebok silhouette is a much better silhouette than we had so it all the way through it was a question of what do we do where do we go how do we rather than worrying about things as a problem it was like saying oh this is an opportunity however when we started adidas had arrived in the uk and had taken the soccer market on

that's for your usa people because we know it's a football with but soccer in the end. They'd taken the soccer market. It would cost us too much to go into it. So we went with the family sort of area that they'd been in, which is track and field. So we went to track and field and running. And when we had really become number one in the UK with that, we thought, what do we do? Do we expand our product line and try to go into soccer? But that, again, was still very expensive.

Or do we expand our territory and go somewhere start doing global work or abroad and for me i knew a guy who'd been chief top coaches at yale frank ryan he was kind of bit old he had worked with fosters but i knew that america was the place because in every university and every college, they had coach. And coach was a god. Coach was a god. And the teams, excellent. You could go to college on a sports scholarship.

Wildly different to the UK, right? Like I played sports at the UK college scene and you had four people watching. And here it's like a major, an Olympic event. It is because we went to Notre Dame. Notre Dame over there, of course because we went to Notre Dame. Notre Dame over there, of course. We went to Notre Dame earlier this year, and we actually went to South Bend, where Notre Dame is, and we got a good tour.

And there was the 80,000-seater stadium. So, yes, so that was it. However, 1968, the government want us to export. So they're going to pay for our flights, our stand at the NSGA show Chicago, and half of our hotel bills. Wow, that's a good idea. We'll go to America. 1968, I went to America.

Okay. I had six failed attempts to get distribution. Six failures. Again, we look at failure as a lesson. We look at it as an opportunity. But I eventually got in there in 1979. 11 years. Took me 11 years.

I was having fun, even though we weren't really getting anywhere. But I got there. And we got there because in our early days, we didn't have computers. We didn't have cell phones, anything smart like that. You had to rely on magazines. Magazines were usually the way to advertise specific magazines in the UK. It was Athletics Weekly, which all the athletes used to read. And in America, running became a category. Everybody seemed to want to go out because all you need to do is buy a pair of shoes, have a vest and a pair of shorts. It was the cheapest way to keep fit so they started running

then from people starting running events started to arise 5ks 10ks half marathons so a lot of people started running and with that with the growth that another magazine runners world runners world well everybody bought runners world it started off as a single page, and it ended up in the middle of the 70s as a 60, 70-page, full-color, everybody buying this, and we were advertising it. Bob Anderson, who was the editor, thought he could tell everybody which was the best shoe to buy, and he did. Nike, of course.

Yeah, Nike. But the problem is that Phil Knight was importing his shoes from Japan and Asia, and the demand was for millions. As soon as Bob Anderson said, this is number one shoe, everybody wanted it. But the failure was that Phil Knight could not increase production to the level of the demand. So that was a bit of a failure. The year after, Bob Anderson, in his wisdom,

changed his number one shoe to another one it may have been new balance it may have been a ton he changed it and the same thing happened they couldn't get the shoe some sort of light flashed and he thought we don't we're doing this wrong so instead of telling everybody which is number one he decided on star ratings so five stars downwards and five stars you can have probably four or five shoes at first. And at that point, we recognized that, yeah, we're in this business. We know what we're doing. We can make a five-star shoe.

And, okay, again, it's a longish story, but that short, we did get a five-star shoe. And that was really the big thing. I'd been, it was 1979. I was in Chicago in February. The shoe edition comes out in August. But I met up with Kmart and they wanted 25,000 pairs because things were growing. But I met a guy called Paul Fireman. And he was a bit tired of his business,

which was Boston camping, selling tents and fishing lines and all the other things. He'd been doing this for 10 years, and he was going nowhere. And he said, Joe, you get a five-star shoe, and I'll be your distributor. By the time August came along, and I phoned Paul, I said, can I go down and check out the magazine, Runner's World, see how we did? He came back about an hour later and said, Joe, Aztec, that was our trainer. He got five stars.

But not only that, your spike tracks you, I think that was called Midas, or no, the relationship was called Midas, and you tracked spike. All three have got five stars. We come into what you were saying, what was the time, what was the end. That was one big event. We got five stars.

So we had been pushing to get to the American market, but nobody really knew about us. As soon as we got that credibility, as soon as we got a five-star rating those ratings that was different they wanted our shoe yeah but we were a bit like a bit like phil knight we had although we had a small factory in the uk but we knew the demand we couldn't we couldn't get anywhere near even came out when they wanted 20 000 per that would have taken us nearly six months to make it's like impossible so i got some help and i got some help from from barter they they made the shoes for us and a bit of a disaster but the good thing was we got some shoes on the market yeah yeah and eventually we ended up

in in asia and we got the right product at the right price and that so we started growing but throughout our whole sort of life as a as a new in those days a new brand we'd had to look for white space so big that we needed to look and say we moved into track and field which was better for us rugby league which was north of england so we moved into those spaces now we just just arrived in America and we're growing nicely as a running company as part of this expanding business. But this white space, what happened is our guy down in Los Angeles, Arnold Martinez, his wife, Frankie,

she's coming back home full of all this excitement at these classes she's going to. And I was saying, Frankie, what are you you're doing oh we're doing aerobics yeah and yes yeah and arnold said what's aerobics i know you've got to go back to his other 1980s i remember you yeah what's aerobics so she told him that's we're actually exercising to music and we love it. Next class, Arnhold goes down to see what's going on. He saw the instructor there in a pair of sneakers. We think they might have a new balance.

And half the class in the same sneaker, the other half just barefoot. And Arnhold, he thought, why don't we make a shoe? Why don't we make a shoe on a woman's last, out of glove leather, nice and cushioned, just in women's sizes? And so he went off to Boston, where Paul Feynman's in Boston. He does the red eye up there to Boston. And talking to Paul Feynman, look, we're doing this.

And Paul Feynman said, whoa, slow down, slow down. Why? We're a running company. Why do we want to be making shoes, dancing shoes for girls? And he told him to think about it and come back. But Arnold didn't. Arnold went around to the back door, saw our product manager, and he did a better job there with steve licker and steve

got him 200 pairs of the shoes he wanted and he gave them to the instructors down in l.a and that was it and some of the girls and as soon as this hit the whole thing started to explode the girls yeah not only wore them for the classes, they also wore them on the street because it was so common. Yeah, fashion. And then it becomes the fashion effect too. And then when Jane Fonda actually bought a pair of Reeboks and used them in her exercise videos, that was it.

That went viral. Absolutely. And we were a $9 million business when we moved into aerobics. In 40 years' time, we were a $900 million business. Crazy. Crazy. There's a lot to unpack already. So if you're listening, I always look, I interview a lot of amazing people,

some of the best in the world, and I love to always unpack things people miss. I've already unpacked a ton. Number one, I teach this a lot too. You get punched in the face all the time, but successful true millionaires and billionaires, they have that belief and that consistency to just keep moving through it. You said 11 years, most people would have quit way before. They said, America doesn't work. We're just going to stay in the UK, do what know we're going to stay small stay to our roots blah blah

blah blah blah and that would have been the difference between you probably fizzling out one day versus becoming what you became so that's a big thing and i think also the some people don't want to innovate and you have to know when's a good time and a balancing act between innovation and doing too much. And it's looking at trends, looking at how do you expand and go to that next level. And then I think the third and final one is that there's a few pivotal things you can do a certain stage or on a big podcast, right? In these days worlds, but back then the magazine example, right? Or getting it on a famous fitness celebrity, for example, like those things are often underlooked, right? Everyone's focused on ads and social media, which is exactly what I teach. But then I have a whole department and a weekly meeting. I call it billion dollar branding, where I'm looking at what are those few big lottery ticket swings that could transform our business that would take 10, 20 years to do from general marketing. So I love just to pick up

on all those things. Yeah, this is what happened to us. It was looking for the white space or not being worried. So we actually uh got got into a role which we pivoted we were running company but we pivoted we didn't have any problem with that and of course that that allowed us to grow to the point where we could then go into other sports like american football basketball tennis so we then expanded it into that area and during that expansion we overtook adidas we overtook nike and we became the number one in the mid to late 80s we became the number one global sports brand which was amazing so again we'd touched onto something we'd arrived at something being the number one something that probably we never even dreamt of

yeah the only problem is that just as we got into america my brother who was a very keen athlete unfortunately used to push himself far too much and he got cancer and he died just as we arrived in it made a lot of changes a lot of things had to happen but like we say nothing runs that smooth it's not as though everything is clockwork it doesn't you get these big problems but we made it through and that's great and of course i stepped back in 1989 and just took it easy went to tenerife and in the sun and got some nice wine and whatever you do. And then we got computers. Then we got cell phones. Then we got Google and we got Wikipedia.

And they start telling me just how Reebok started. And there's a photograph of Joe Foster, the founder of Reebok. I don't know who he was, but it certainly wasn't me. And all the stories about how we started Reebok, all wrong. They just said, oh, Jeff and Joe Foster took over the family business and changed his name. No, we didn't. So I wrote a book.

Yeah. And that was Shoemaker. And what about, I would love to hear just quickly before we talk about the book, four years, crazy growth, right? Just tell us about that. I've grown crazy companies. I've ran 100 companies doing hundreds of millions of dollars,

but I can't imagine that amount of growth. Tell us a little about that. Once aerobics really took off, as it did take off, we didn't need any salesmen. For four years, we didn't need any salesmen we did for four years we didn't need a salesman those orders fulfillment operations and logistics that's right all of a sudden we became a woman's company and the women took to us like possessors and that was it and the orders were coming in thick and fast and our biggest problem, we'd got over finance in this. We'd been able to find somebody because orders were coming in so big.

Yeah, finance didn't become a problem. What became a problem was production. How do you get the volume? We can go back to the Runner's World story with Phil Knight trying to get the shoes once the demand came in. We had the same problem. However, we moved on a few years.

Nike had got big, but Nike, they had a slowdown period and their inventory, they got too much inventory. And we were struggling to find production. Unfortunately, Nike pulled out of about four factories in South Korea, just when we needed it. And that really saved our lives. we moved it because if we hadn't have found that production we would have starved the market then others would have come into the market and instead we owned that aerobic market but it was tremendous the the growth was incredible we actually starved globally but we kept usa going because we knew that we if we keep usa going it will roll out and it did it roll out everywhere what was the oh my gosh moment there had to be something

during that whether it was the first order or whatever what was the holy cow i think that with the robux it was some the explosion and i'm still back in the uk i'm now concentrating on global and paul fireman and martinez and the team started to build out there and and when i go out there what are we doing this everything was just aerobics yeah we did have a running line what every time i turned out there i'm just seeing aerobics. And the whole thing is taking off. And I guess the biggest wow was we decided that we would exhibit. We were exhibiting at the NSGA show in America, but we decided we'd go on the other big global one, which was in Germany.

And that was called ESPO. And we were the first to put a stage show on. Normally, the stands were there and the people would be coming in, buyers would come into the stand and all the salesmen would be selling. It's the usual thing at a big show, whatever it is, different industries have different shows. So we went down there, and because this was aerobics and aerobics was a big thing

we decided to put and we were the first ones at the show to put music on so we yeah sure and every time like i teach you stood out in that show of all boring booths and then like whatever right and we would put a 10 minute aerobic show on every hour every time on the hour you could not get near our, you could not get near. Our stand, you could not get near. There were hundreds and hundreds of just come in to watch the aerobic show because you've got the girls up there and the guys, they just love that. So these were real wow moments in our history.

And then we went on from there. We put on a pro celebrity tennis match in monte carlo and we got all the top hollywood people we used to get those people coming in and i've got a few names we've got a few names what we've got here we've got john forsyth i don't even remember him he was in the blake carrington and dynasty lynda evans she was also in dynasty joan collins he was in dynasty frank sinatra there sean conrad roger moore jane c chuck norris uh robert de niro michael cain uh charlton heston veronica hamill legends right all those realistas and they were coming down to play tennis in uh in monte carlo so

a lot of warm moments and and it was an incredible time. And what about the, I guess, biggest challenge or lesson, right? If you could go back to yourself, I like to ask this question, knowing everything now about business, growth, marketing, or life, right? What is the biggest thing you'd tell your younger self? It's difficult when you actually whatever you do you get number one it's difficult to say what how are you going to change that but i guess that whilst we might have known a lot about influencers i would have concentrated more on influencers to get the

brand these days if you're starting off doing what we do you need to find out how you might have the best products in the world, but nobody knows. So you've got to influence people. And the easiest way, of course, is to have a celebrity and you get that association. And that's the influence. And we got a number of celebrities and we didn't pay any money. And that's going back to the late 80s, mid to late 80s.

We didn't pay money. Now you've got to pay a lot of money. Now it's an industry. Being an influencer is an industry and they make a lot of money. So if you don't have the money, you've got to be ready now. And I guess I would just start in, I'd have to be ready to get part of the company. Yeah.

There's many celebrity brands now where they bring on the celebrities, give equity, right? But it helps them blow up versus a regular brand that doesn't. It's interesting. So that's the way I would sort of look at life now, that we need to expand this company. Well, and you saw the power of that because you fell in with it, with the aerobics, right?

That's what kicked it off when it was on all the workout DVD dvds but you just didn't you didn't plan that or pay for it but that shows the success of it and that's what i always say it's like this whole like i teach a lot of this influence and celebrity marketing that's what i do and i say this has been around for many years it's only now with social media it's a bigger thing but it's been around for many years. It's only now with social media, it's a bigger thing, but it's been around for so many years. And that's a prime example of it happening organically that created a ripple effect that got you into aerobics. And then that helped the whole company grow. So it's always the psychology of human beings wanting to resonate with the person they look up to and the person they want to be. That starts from a childhood when we would read superhero books or watch them on tv so it's it's been around for many generations

yeah it's not new it's just in a different way you just just have to understand what were the different uh avenues are uh no you know um podcasts and there's such a lot. But Reebok, in the early days, it was really sports stars. So the sports stars were the big influencers. But with Reebok, we moved into music. We moved into Hollywood, film stars. And they were our influencers, and it worked very well. And what about, let's fast forward just as we come towards the end today,

what is obviously you're speaking, you're on big stages, podcasts, corporate events. What makes up your day now? What are you excited about? I know you're obviously the book side, but I would love to hear after all that success, what's the big thing for you now? I think the big thing is that once you're part of a brand like reebok and you're a family and you give birth to

it you really want to keep seeing that it's doing well and it for a period it was sold to adidas and adidas did not take care of it but two years ago abg authentic brands group they took it over they bought the brand and one of our influencers from the past shaquille o'neal shaq is he's a 15 owner of abg and he loves the brand and this is great so now they brought him back in and with other guys there they're now going to rebuild the basketball side. And I think it's very interesting and very challenging now to see that Reebok is going to go through a big – it's going to explode again. Good. I'm ready. Yeah, because ABG, they have distribution globally. Yeah, they're monsters. Yeah.

They have over 50 brands, but it's good to see that now the Reebok brand is going through this explosion again. It just is. It's a phoenix situation. It's really coming up, and it's going to be. So that excites me. And, of course, it ties in a lot now with Shoemaker, because I wrote Shoemaker just because I needed to put the story straight.

I needed to say, no, it didn't do that, I didn't do that. But what did they find out? And the universities have had us into events to speak to the MBA students. And because there's such a lot of information, there's such a lot you can learn if you're in business from reading this book. From all the problems problems from how to look at these problems and what to do finding the answer looking at them instead of being a problem it's this is an opportunity so it was good and that's now that's what we're doing in america a lot we're talking about and we went to universities and and colleges and and I think we'll be there quite a lot in 2024 talking about the book.

But also we're now working on other books. And there's other people's stories as well, because there's some. The first one we just about published, Survive and Thrive, the first book, which has 21 or 22 in it. Evander Holerfield is one. The guy who wrote Bob the Builder, he's another one. But we have some fantastic stories in there. And it's going to be a series because so many people out there

have a story. A lot of them really, when we say survive, a lot have been survival. It's just incredible. One guy who's in there now, he was born in a refugee camp in Russia he's Latvian born in refugee camp oh he's Armenian I'm being corrected by my external hard drive that yeah yeah he's Armenian but his father wrote to the White House continually day after day and he did get a reply.

Eventually, he got a reply. And we said, if you can come here, you can come here for 30 days. And if you can find yourself a job and make a living, you can stay. And they did. And so the guy who came as a youngster, he is now, he's grown up. And of course, he now owns a communications company. And he's making a lot of money. And we have him in the book.

So those sort of stories, they start with disaster. In fact, we were only talking to a guy yesterday or the day before who jumped off the Golden Gate Bridge and survived. Wow. Survived. Crazy. And now he's speaking about committing suicide but not wanting to die. Yeah, I think I've heard of this. Yeah, it's a crazy story if it's the one I'm reading. It is.

Yeah. But he's going to be in the second book. So there's so many of those stories. So this will be a collection. Eventually it will be a collection. But number one is out in about two weeks, Survive and Thrive. So that's what I'm doing. That's what we're spending our time doing.

Yeah. Like I said a little earlier, we grow up listening to stories. Our favorite hero learning through stories. Stories are so powerful and books as well, right? Like to me, I've read hundreds of books and I think that's partly why I'm successful. Growing up in my 20s, I read a book a week, most weeks. And I say there's nothing better than taking someone 20, 30, 40, 50 years of experience and they're putting the best in a book.

The power in that one book is insane. So I'll throw the links to that in the show notes. And maybe if there's anyone listening and they have a powerful story and they want to share that with you to maybe be in that next book i'll try and drop a link in or a contact info so they can submit that to you if that's okay and i'm look i'm excited to listen to some of these stories and read them myself that would be brilliant it would and i'm sure there's going to be so many stories already we're not starting knocking on doors, things, they're coming at us, but we like spread the news. But that would be wonderful.

Excellent. Yeah. Great. Any final words to my audience, people listening today, they're entrepreneurs trying to build the next reboot. What would you say? Any words of wisdom, motivation or tips to wrap up the show today? I think that you've got to be an optimist.

And if you're an optimist, you have a good chance of being a successful entrepreneur. And remember that there will be problems. It's not going to be a smooth ride. But if you think the excitement comes from not being a smooth ride, it doesn't come from everything going. It comes from the the difficulties and those difficulties build your character they also build a remarkable business because you will find

a way that it you have to offer something different and these are the opportunities when something comes along and you you feel ah this is a, you've got to look at it and think, no, this is an opportunity. Turn those opportunities, turn those problems into opportunities. And you'll be amazed at where it takes you. Yeah, you know, that's the, we coach hundreds of entrepreneurs in our program and the mindset and how you handle with it. Really just some people go backwards and they contract and I always say this is part of the journey you don't become a top box though without getting hit in the face a few times and when you get hit right away it doesn't feel

too great but then in hindsight you realize it was part of your journey just like you said and generally I've turned just like you our biggest problems that on face value, if anyone read it, they'd go, Oh, wow, that's, that's really bad. But they've created, they've caused me to create something new that took me to that next level. And every single time, somehow life has a way if you're optimist, and you're creative, and you work on you believe in yourself, life has a way of creating that for you, I found. So it seems like you've seen the same over your career, which is obviously far more expansive than mine. And I'm really grateful for having you on today. Obviously, these are

short, but I actually feel on this occasion, we could go again. So maybe one day you can visit one of our events or our masterminds or come back on because there's so much more wisdom I'm sure you have. So thank you so much for joining us today, especially on Thanksgiving. It's been an absolute pleasure. And like you say, there is so much depth in those stories, changing our name, changing our silhouette. There's stories in there. And they were fun to experience and they're fun to read it and i think that has to be remembered that whatever you do have fun yes have fun you've got to enjoy it

yeah love that okay that's a wrap we'll leave it right there remember whatever you do have fun and be great that's the red light that's how we live our life and joe thank you so much we'll put all the links in the show notes. I appreciate you so much. I know we're going to connect more offline and hopefully make more magic happen. Guys, until next time, go check out those links, follow and read those books, and I'll see you guys very soon. Take care.