Locked In with Ian Bick - A Corrupt Cop & a Good Cop Sit Down Face to Face — Nothing Is Off Limits | Kyle Overmyer & Michael Smith

Episode Date: July 20, 2026

Kyle Overmyer was a cop who crossed the line — battled addiction and ended up in prison. Michael Smitty Smith was a Philadelphia prison guard and cop who spent his entire career on the right side of the badge. In this episode of Locked In with Ian Bick they sit down face to face for the first time — and nothing is off limits. They go deep on what creates a corrupt cop, how former officers are treated inside prison, what prison actually does to people who have worn a badge, whether someone who betrayed the badge can ever truly earn trust back and the moral dilemmas that reveal exactly who each of them really is. _____________________________________________ #corruption #cops #truecrimecommunity _____________________________________________ Thank you to NOCD & CASH APP for sponsoring this episode: NOCD: visit https://www.treatmyocd.com/ to book a free 15-minute call _____________________________________________ CASH APP: Download Cash App Today: https://click.cash.app/ui6m/6pao71et #CashAppPod Cash App is a financial services platform, not a bank. Banking services provided by Cash App’s bank partner(s). Prepaid debit cards issued by Sutton Bank, Member FDIC. Cash App Visa® Debit Flex Cards issued by Sutton Bank, Member FDIC, and The Bancorp Bank, N.A., pursuant to a license from Visa U.S.A. Inc. See terms and conditions for the Sutton prepaid card, Sutton debit flex card, and Bancorp debit flex card. Discounts and promotions provided by Cash App, a Block, Inc. brand. Visit cash.app/legal/podcast for full disclosures. _____________________________________________ Connect with Kyle Overmyer: Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/kyle.overmyer.16/ Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kyle-overmyer-ba-cei-345b55203 Book: https://www.amazon.sg/Prison-Prodigy-Power-Purpose-Reborn/dp/B0GX2CT7GB _____________________________________________ Connect with Michael "Smith" Smitty: Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/share/1EPRh9W5yE/?mibextid=wwXIfr Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/smittymike2999?igsh=NG1ycThxcTljZDc2 _____________________________________________ Hosted, Executive Produced & Edited By Ian Bick: https://www.instagram.com/ian_bick/?hl=en https://ianbick.com/ _____________________________________________ Timestamps: 00:00 Introductions & Backgrounds 04:45 First Impressions: Cops Crossing the Line 07:00 The Meaning of the Badge After Crisis 09:45 Corruption: Could It Happen to You? 13:13 Mental Health in Law Enforcement 17:13 Accountability & Protecting Problem Officers 21:27 Understanding Corruption: Causes & Consequences 26:47 Department Responses & Second Chances 30:33 Cops, DUIs, and Public Perception 34:49 Losing Faith in Policing? 37:54 Treatment of Officer-Inmates in Prison 44:43 Can Prison Rehabilitate? Programs & Second Chances 50:16 Re-Entry and Life After Release 57:00 Earning Back Trust & Second Acts 01:00:55 Why Honest Dialogues Matter To advertise on the show, contact [e-mail] or visit https://advertising.libsyn.com/LockedInWithIanBicka Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Shopify thinks ahead of us, you know, and it thinks about the customer more than anything. Every day I'm thinking about some other new business. But Shopify is doing it to me because it's so easy to use. It's like I can't stop. I'm addicted. Start your free trial at Shopify.com. My guests today are two men who have both been on the show before, but never together. and never like this. Kyle Overmire was a police officer who crossed the line,

battled addiction, and ended up in prison. Michael Smitty Smith was a Philadelphia prison guard and cop who spent his entire career on the right side of that line. Today, they are sitting across from each other for the first time and nothing is off limits. Corruption, prison, the badge, redemption, and the questions both of them have always wanted to ask someone like the other. This is a conversation most people in law enforcement,

will never have publicly. Kyle and Smitty, welcome back to Locked In. This is Smitty's third appearance on Locked in. Yes, third time. Yeah, I don't know. Only Leroy's been on three times or more. So you're number two for most appearances. And then Kyle, I met back in 2023 at our original studio when we first started out.

So I'll let you guys introduce yourself, Kyle, if you want to tell the audience who you are. Yeah, so my name's Kyle O'ermeyer, a little bit about me. I had 20 years in law enforcement. In Ohio, I was one of the youngest elected sheriffs in Ohio at the age of 34. I eventually fell to addiction after being diagnosed with arthritis, ended up with the 43 count indictment, looking at 15 years. I ended up pleading to 15 felony counts.

I served four years in the state prison from 2016. to 2020, got out in COVID, short time. I was homeless, frying chicken. And then I ended up focusing, and being my purpose in life was addiction, mental health, working in that field. Up until here recently, I'm going to actually pivot back to law enforcement. I'm going to be working as a National Director of Business Development for Optimum Technology based out of Ohio, working with software, focused it on law enforcement again. And I am also a best-selling author of releasing a book in April here of this year called Prison Prodigy. You got to pick it up.

I know Ian grabbed one and he was delighted with it and you can find it on Amazon. So that's a little bit about me. What about you, Smendy? I'm a retired Philly cop, retired corrections officer from Philadelphia County, CFCF, and retired kitchen officer from Greaterford and SCI Phoenix, the state prisons in Pennsylvania. All together, about 20 years, I was hurting a line of duty when I was a Philly cop.

I'm also the boxing manager of Johan's boxing gym and also train kids. We do various programs with the Bucks County, chiefs of police, pal program, the Autism Cares Foundation, Parkinson's program. We were also run an able force with adults with disabilities on Saturday, on Saturdays. You know what I think will be interesting with today's episode, too, is that you have the experience of being a cop and also a correctional officer.

So my first question is for you, Smittya, what was your first impression of Kyle and historian just sitting across from someone that went out a completely opposite path than you? I'll say this. When I went, I was asked to come on and they told me about Kyle's story and all. I was looking at it as being ticked off. Like, how can someone in law enforcement go that way? Because I'm very much against it. But talking to him and seeing what he has become afterwards and the stuff that he's doing for. everyone. I actually got to give them his props. Like, I'm impressed. I'm happy.

And because I had the mindset of just blasting you. I ain't lying. And when I was telling people that I'm coming on, you know, people were saying that. But it goes to show you. It's like that saying, I was saying it this weekend, the gym, clothes makes the man. Everybody looks at the outside of peers. Everybody looks at the outside of peers. Everybody looks, judges as a person.

of their actions, but they don't really get to know the person until they talk to them. So I'm like, I'm happy, like, you know, from the things that you said. And I wish you the great success in the future. Thank you, Smitty. Yeah, I appreciate that. Now, Smitty, do you think that same logic applies to suspects you may have arrested or even inmates you've encountered? I actually involved a lot from when I first started.

I was, what, 23, 24? Or, to be honest, I thought all the inmates' convicts were pieces of shit. Like, you know, you get what you deserve and everything else. But then as you get older and you think about it, I guess you wise up a little bit. And you see they made a mistake. The same mistake that I could have made driving through a stop sign and or texting somebody's, driving through a stop sign and I kill them. They make me a bad person.

I just made a mistake in life, you know? And, you know, I ended up, we would have to do time. And that's how the first day in the academy, they do tell you not everyone's guilty, you know. But when you're in your 20s, you still have that gung-ho feeling and everything. When I went back to the state prisons, you see people can change. There's people that got college degrees from Villanova University. and they made it out and doing, you know, they're successful. Kyle, what does a badge mean to you today after going through your journey?

Well, so my father was in law enforcement for 38 years. He was actually a captain at the same sheriff's office. I became the elected sheriff. And even though that I was arrested by my own brothers and sisters, I never turned my head or disrespect to the badge because I took accountability for my actions. And then I allowed myself to learn more about myself that I wasn't Superman. I was a human being that was, you know, I could become an addict like everybody else. You know, just because I wore a badge didn't make me better than everybody else.

And it wasn't that I was weaker. It was I just didn't deal with my disease and my mental health issues. And it's interesting today. I go back into sheriff's offices and I teach critical incident training. I speak to first responders all across the country. And I even something else, I actually sat on Governor Mike DeWine's board in Ohio, ex-offender reentry. And now I'm working with the corrections officers and Ohio Department of Rehabilitated. and corrections. So I even have more respect for the badge than I did before because now I've been on both sides and I understand it more. And like I said, now my life's going back around full circle and I'm going to be able to work again with those men and women on a different level, you know, in law enforcement. Smitty, looking at, you know, Kyle's story and, you know, what he went through. And I'm sure you encountered corrupt cops in your day to. and even corrupt correctional officers.

Could you ever imagine crossing that line yourself, either in the past or presently, if you were still in office? No way. I just, I wouldn't be able to. You did say, say it'd be like corrupt cops. Luckily, I never came across that in Philadelphia. And I actually, I'm very happy about that.

Everyone I worked with was, they were good. never saw any type of BS, any type of false arrest, never seen people planning stuff, never seen anybody take money. And me and my partner even had been in situations where we locked up a drug dealer and they had $30,000 cash on them. And we could have just took it,

but I could never have, me and my partner, we could never have done it. I'm not like you like another time first day in the academy in the prison academy uh this officer pain barrow-chested guy right and he was our instructor and he said don't ever embarrass your family by being on the front page of the daily news or fill the inquiry and that's something i could just never do like embarrass my dad's name or anything like that Is there cops that have done it? Hell, hell yeah.

Luckily, I've never seen it. Now, as for corrupt CEOs, I've never seen it personally, but I've heard about it. And I've seen them get, you know, walked out. And, like, I just have no respect for that whatsoever. I just can't. You jeopardize everyone's life.

Like, that one, who was at that one NYPD cop that had a podcast at one time, to me he was a total bum he was telling he was telling the one cartel when the cops would raid his uh raid their houses

so they already knew when they were going to get raided and he actually did time i believe he might have did 15 years i'm not i don't quote me on that but like if i him to this day if i ever seen him came across him i was spit in his face because you can get another officer killed doing that, you know, and that's something I don't have. If you wear prescription glasses, you know the struggle.

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to opiates after, you know, being diagnosed with arthritis and then the trauma of a fatal shooting, witnesses and children drowned and totality of everything. That, my own mental health and my own, it was my own fault that I never asked for help. And that's what forced me. So over the last years now, I've been, you know, clean for over 11 years now and even stayed absent at which, you know, Ian, you and I both know there's more drugs in prison than there's in the streets. I stayed clean and I continued to.

And a lot of that is because I'm a father or grandfather and now a husband again. And I would never put my family's name or myself or anybody in jeopardy or disrespect him again. But I know I'll never wear a badge again, but I will always respect that badge. If I can add, like what Kyle went through, I believe police departments in the city should actually do more for cops with that with mental with the mental health aspect if people only knew what we went through or have seen like I've seen a baby in a toilet that still affects me to this day um dead for days flies flying on it with the placenta still in in that toilet with that baby I've seen brain matter splattered on the steps I've had a gun pulled out on me where I had to fight for my life

Those things, you replay that every day in your life. And they tell you, oh, go talk to EAP. That's what it was. Right. Right. You know, and then you talk to them, and it's just regular Joe's, that's never even been through any of that bullshit that we just went through. Then you don't want to come home and tell your family

because you don't want your family getting worried about that. So I, no doubt, and suicide is very high in police departments and in corrections. and the city and the unions need to do more for that, for that aspect. And like addiction, a lot of people get addicted from the doctors giving them those prescriptions. And it's just a sad all-around case. I agree. And kind of a rebuttal to you. Yeah.

And then, you know, maybe if we could go in, like guys like myself and you, and maybe go in and speak to somebody. these officers because we actually had the experience. Maybe that would help and hinder some of the addiction, suicides in the future. I think we've got to be more proactive, Smitty. I agree with you. A lot of the people who come on the show talk about carrying things they can't shake. And sometimes the hardest thing to carry isn't what you did. It's a thought. Does that disturbing thought I just had mean I'm secretly a violent, terrible person? What if the darkest corner of my mind is the real me. And no matter how far you've come, it just keeps coming back. For millions of people,

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Struggling with, like... With addiction or most of his issues stem from. If you saw anything abnormal, would you have checked him on it, confronted him? Absolutely. Like, if you wouldn't, then you're putting his life in jeopardy and yours. Matter of fact, there's a viral video of that cop that was drunk.

It came out a couple of days ago. The guy did a stop or something, and the cop was completely drunk. And his partners were saying, oh, he's tired. I forgot what his partners were saying. But the dude ended up getting fired. It just came out. And, like, that's a problem. Like, you just, your reaction time is slower.

You're not thinking straight. And you can shoot somebody thinking you're seeing. something, you know? So, um, it's just, it's sad. Kyle, do you think some cops protect other cops that are maybe battling addiction or alcoholism or have done something wrong? Oh, I do. I mean, it's, it's, Smitty knows this. It's the, it's a brotherhood thing, you know, a lot of times. And, you know, to go back what like Smitty was talking about myself, even, I was more of ashamed of my addiction. I didn't want anybody to think, you know, here's the share of,

if he's the leader of this organization that I was, I was weak. And it felt like it was almost a weakness, you know, I mean, Smitty, you went through the academy around the same time. We're at the same age and everything. We were taught, look, just look at it, go about it, and bite your tongue and keep rolling. Am I right? You're right. And that's the same mentality I had. And I hope it continues to change that it's not like that, that if we, those officers truly need help, they ask for help you know and uh i can always say woulda coulda shoulda but i want to be sitting here with you in or you smitty talking about my journey and in this conversation if i wouldn't have been through that and now today and smitty and i talked earlier that's what i do anytime somebody

calls me on the phone i answer and i try to help people and i think it was i'd say this i think it was God's plan for me to go through this. Now, Smitty, if you had a partner that even thought about making the wrong decision, would you still be able to trust that partner? Not at all. Not at all. Integrity. Like, you're, I just could never, I, honestly, God, like, I thank God, all my partners were, like, clean like me.

I wouldn't be able to deal with it. I would check them. Like, there ain't no way. Because you get a criminal, there's no reason. You'll just catch them another day. It's just a cat and mouse game with everything. Planting drugs or, like, what are you even doing,

having drugs to plant, you know, or planting a gun or anything like that? Just catch them the right way. That's the better satisfaction. for a person, you know. What do you think makes a corrupt cop, Smitty? It's probably always been in them. They had evil intentions from the get-go.

Also, it could be addiction. I mean, you know, there's cops that gamble. Yeah. You know, cops that drink. You know, they... they're not making out overtime. They have bills to pay. They have tuition to pay, you know,

and they think, they don't think they're going to get caught, but eventually you'll end up getting caught. What about you, Kyle? I agree with many, a lot of it. Sometimes it is addiction, but it's also greed. Right. Absolutely.

You know, we didn't make a lot of money, you know, being cops, and you see a lot of these guys out there being drug dealers. They're driving around in nice cars, living a better life, and we're out there busting our homes, protecting and serving. And I think that happens to some guys, and they always want to be one-up in life. And, you know, I mean, I can remember a lot of cops that I knew one cop. He would be at that convenience store scratching scratch-offs every day. I'm sure you saw him on duty and got addicted.

And then he's calling his bookie on the phone and, you know, place in bets. And then he's in deep. And that's what happens with these guys. There was a cop in Philly in the 23rd. He ended up transferring to the second district. And he had a gambling thing. Scratch house. Yeah.

Impact caught him. Impact is like cops that you never even see. They usually pluck them right from the academy. And they're the ones that do integrity checks on you. They might put a dime bag of crack in your. car and you're supposed to check that police car before you right before you start and then when you end yeah right and then you got to write it up up yep yep you know so this dude was robbing homeless people for their change homeless people wow right and impact played as a homeless person and they got

him wow and he had about 16 years on the job why because he wanted to play goddamn scratch offs what you Mm-hmm. Sarsis. My name is Shannon Maldonado. I'm the founder of Yawi, a gift shop from the lens of artists and handmade objects. I chose Shopify because when I was testing other platforms, it was definitely one of the most user-friendly. It was important to me to think about where we would be in the future. All of the tools for reading your sales like planning inventory, they're just right there on your dashboard.

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what did you think your definition was of a corrupt cop? Exactly what he's saying. And, you know, my criminal activity didn't, wasn't anything like planting or, you know, setting anybody up ever. I mean, I gave a lot of guys breaks. I always said first one's on me, next one's on. You know, and, you know, you get a bag of marijuana and you throw it down the, down the sewer.

I'm sure you did that or get a crack pipe and you step on it and say, hey, clean it up, you know. And corrupt cop, it would be setting people up and, you know, selling drugs, you know, like we talk about. There's guys doing that. That was a corrupt cop. That was my definition, you know. And I always played by the rules. I never wanted to be like that. And I always wanted to be the picture perfect law enforcement officer, then become the sheriff.

And my addiction got the best to me. Now, how do you feel that cops, you know, refer to you as a corrupt cop, even though you might not have been the one planting evidence or doing those types of things that you just described? I think everybody's entitled to your own opinion. Does it offend me? No, no. I know who I am today. I made the changes.

I took accountability for everything I did. And I'm trying to make up now by giving back and helping people. And if they want to call me a corrupt cop, that's up to them, Ian. And I know who I am today because I can look in the mirror. Do you feel like your actions did count as corruption? It can. Yeah, in a sense. Yes.

But I think if you go into the whole, go right all into everything, the meat and potatoes about what was going on with me, it was my addiction. It wasn't that I was a bad person or a bad cop. My addiction made me that is what it did. Kyle Lovermire wasn't born a corrupt or a bad person. The drugs made me bad. They really did. And I took accountability, and that's why I work on myself every day. Smitty, what do you think is worse?

Corruption or covering up corruption in police departments? It's actually a good question. Because that's an interesting question. Yeah. I probably would say covering up corruption. Because if you cover up the corruption, you're covering up everything. Like you're the start of it. if you don't cover it up, there won't be any corruption, you know?

That's actually a good question. Like, if there was rumors of a certain corrections officer that was dirty, I would just stay. I stayed away from that person. I didn't want to be around him. The inmates that he was around, I didn't want to even. converse with them like I just had don't want to be part of it and unfortunately in corrections there is a lot of corrupt CEOs and it's sad as you guys know drugs don't come in from the inmates you know right I saw it in prison right

they come in from the CEOs to people that work in the prisons and you might and in the and in the visiting room and all that also but for the most part it's the own corrections that's bringing that shit in you know and do they do a lot about not in philly not in pennsylvania you really don't get any time for it or anything like that wow um you get walked out the state police will be called and you're charged you ain't getting time you'll get probation is it's a joke you know and it goes back also to what you said greed you know guys aren't making any money right so they got they have an opportunity to bring the pack in and they're going to do it.

I saw it happen. I saw people get walked out. But I also saw COs get time in Ohio, actually. Right. Yeah, in Pennsylvania, there's relaxed. Yeah, it's interesting. I saw them, you know, get time in Ohio. I broke my hand three years before I got married because of a convict beat up.

I'll say his name, Lopez, Officer Lopez, and I said this, and I believe in the first podcast, he. And I actually, me and him would always talk, right? We'll have smoke breaks together. We'll talk. And he was like, yeah, fuck these inmates, man. Fuck these inmates. All right, cool, right?

And next thing you know, there's a response to his block. I've run to it and I, you know, I was in D block. He was in C. And I get to his block and his head split open like he got stabbed in the head. And I'm like, oh, shit. I was like, Lopez, what happened? He goes to guy and sell whatever, right? And I get in a cell, the guy squares up.

We fight. Boom, boom, boom. right i break my hand he gets locked up um find out the what was it two days later three day when whenever lopez came back they did they searched us and he had cigarettes all in between his legs and i found out that he beat that guy's family from the outside took his family took he met his that that convict's uh family on the outside took their money and never brought the shit to in. So that dude, dude hit him with a fist. And I broke my hand because of that. I could even shake people's hands at my wedding because my hand was broken. So. But that just was to show how it comes

in. Yeah. Now, what do you think, Kyle? Because imagine if your department, you know, I'd covered up your situation, gave you a pass, maybe even, you know, just let you resign and never got arrested. I'm sure there's some departments where this type of behavior happens and they do, you know, Just exactly that. Sure, at the time, you know what? I would have probably loved that. But sitting here today, I'm glad it didn't happen. Because I needed to go through that, Ann, to get where I needed to be in life.

If I would have continued to be like that and somebody would have covered up, it would have just hurt the sheriff's office. It would have hurt myself, my family, because it would all caught up with me. And, you know, of course, I was mad when I had 43-counted diamond. in 15, facing 15 years in prison. But today, I'm grateful because it didn't get covered up. And I needed to go through that to get to this point in my life to be who I'm supposed to be in life. So, yeah, you know, always, you always look back and you're like, oh, yeah, it would have it would have been great, but it wouldn't be because my life's great now. Now, say it was one of your officers that was going through it. What would you have done?

would you have reported it and sent him to prison or would you have given him another chance? Well, if it was addiction, I would have tried to help him. I mean, that was my problem. When I went through some of the trauma that I talked about, the shooting, the drownings and stuff, I was too busy taking care of my guys and I neglected myself. So I was always proactive about anybody having any kind of mental health or if there was any kind of drinking problem. I was always proactive. you know but if it got to the point that he crossed the line or she crossed the line

then i had to done the right thing you know and uh i mean i terminated plenty of people i mean we're doing some things that they you know they shouldn't and even close to being criminal activity so um you got to do the right thing i agree with smitty it's just it's about doing the right thing smitty what do you think about some of these cops that you know will get a DUI or we'll get fired from one department and easily get rehired at another one that came about somewhere i heard that somewhere oh i've seen to happen many times yeah i mean look what happened with the guy that shot um the woman with the boiling water that cop who's serving life now oh he was he was fired from uh one or two other departments i remember that case oh that happened

like a year ago and that was and that was a woman who was struggling with mental health issues yeah right yeah but there's a lot of cops that i've seen it yes you're right and that have gotten a DUI or or just been fired for whatever. How do you feel about that? With that, I mean, you get, you get caught. You're done. Like, because you're supposed to uphold that law. I mean, I might get a lot of flack from it from retired cops, active cops.

But fuck that, you know, that DUI, that DUI next time could kill somebody. You know, have I drank and drove? Yes. Was I drunk as hell? No. If they did a breathalyzer on me, maybe 0.3. But that would still be, you still get in trouble for that, you know? Even one drink could change your breathalyzer, you know?

you got to know when you got to know when to stop you're up you're held at an upper upper um regard when you're in law enforcement everyone looks up because

teacher police officer they're the ones that make the news any regular Joe janitor from George Washington High School gets locked up for DUI, does that make the news? No.

The police officer does, you know. So you got to live your life in a higher regard. You got to walk around like that. What do you think, Kyle? What do you think, Kyle? Well, I guess I think it's a case-by-case scenario. And, you know, maybe you get a guy that, you know, gets a DUI. They're willing to do a program.

Let's rehabilitate them. Get into the deeper root of the problem. Are they struggling with PTSD? Is that what caused it? I think it should go case by case. And I understand where Smitty's coming from, and I respect what he says. But we got to remember police officers are Smithy. We're all human too, you know.

Did I drink and drive? Yeah, I did. Could I have been busted probably? Like you said, you don't know. The breathalyzer could say, okay, you're over the legal limit, you know? Right. We were both young and dumb and, you know, full of what, you know? Right.

And that's the problem. But there's some of them that these guys that are getting DUIs, what else are they dealing with? Let's talk to them about it first before we, we jump to that termination and end their career because they're human. But they do wear a badge. I understand that. And teachers. And we all both know teachers and cops and doctors and attorneys. Why do they get put on a front page of a paper?

Because it sells. Right. That's what it sells. Like you said, George Washington High School janitor. They don't care what he's doing. They don't care. Because they're just replacing the next day anyhow. Right.

So that's kind of my, you know, input about that, Ian. You guys would not believe the DMs I get. Every single week, someone messages me saying, Ian, I can get you Martha Stewart, or I know Jordan Bellford personally. Or I've got 6'9 ready to do your podcast. Then comes the best part. Just send a deposit to lock it in.

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or situations like Kyle, does it make you lose faith in policing? No. I mean, Kyle's thing, he had, you know, arthritis is knees and he got addicted to the pain pills. that's more of a thing where you go, what did they call it? The farm, like they get help, you know. Now, the police department in Philly does do that, right?

Even when I was on, if you went to them and said that, but like what Kyle said, they'll look at you as a weaker person. That's why a lot of people don't go to EAP. You're right. You're right. Like before, and I said this in the other podcast, like in 2020, when I left the prisons, I was going to shoot myself because of the shit that I had to go through from my former co-workers

telling the inmates that I was a Philly cop, you know, and seeing on Facebook some of the people posting shit, like, it just gets to, you know, especially like, and that's why I told, I told my wife, I was like, I'm too old. It's time to move on. When I retired from that state prison, I didn't even have a job lined up. Didn't even have a job lined up. I just retired, you know?

And luckily, I found a good job. And then the Johan boxing gym fell right into my lap, like just fell right into it. And it's funny. A lot of people say the best job you have, had in your life cop because it's like the circus the greatest show on earth you see everything you come across everybody you're either helping somebody or you're locking somebody up you're making somebody feel good or you're making someone feel bad at joe at joe hands you're making everybody

feel good like you see the smile on the on those adults faces with the the adults with disabilities and then you're seeing their family members smiling, like hitting the heavy bag, doing the battle rope, doing squats. I love my time as a cop and corrections officer, but what I'm doing now. I guess like with Kyle, everything happens for a reason. And I always say to my kids, your life is like a book. You have a new chapter all the time. It's how you finish that book as your ending chapter. And, you know, if that thing happened in 2020, I would still be at SCI Phoenix.

You know, things happened for a reason. So. Now, Smitty, after meeting Kyle and, you know, encountering all the inmates you've encountered over the years as an officer, do you think Kyle deserve to go to prison? What, for his addiction problem? Yeah. I mean, I really don't know if he

how he got the pills or anything like that. I mean, addiction is bad. You know, I had a lot of family members that overdosed on heroin. They weren't, they didn't start out as bad people.

They, you know, they did things to how they got their money. Diction's bad. It's just, It's just bad. And honestly, I blame everybody on addiction. I blame the U.S. government.

I blame the pharmaceutical companies. I blame the doctors. Like, I'm calling them all out right now because it's the absolute truth. And why is that? Because it's all about the money. That's all it is. It's all about the money. Kyle, do you think you deserve to go to prison?

Yes. It's what made me right, Ian. did I think that when I stood in front of the judge and I asked for treatment, she said, I'm going to give you the best treatment of the state of Ohio and send you the four years? No. But as time went on, I realized that's what I needed. I mean, not all the people that go to prison and you've seen it. That isn't what's right for people.

That isn't what's good treatment for them. But I turned it into the right treatment for myself. So I deserve what I got. And I took it like a man and I held myself accountable like I do today. Yes, I deserved it. I had to go. And that's how I got right. I found peace in prison and I found the true Kyle O'Liver.

Now, Smitty, as a former cop and someone that was a correctional officer, how would you have treated Kyle in prison, seeing that he came from law enforcement? Honestly, like shit. I believe that. I believe it, Smithy. It's all right. Now, do you base your answer off of, say, you haven't read his case at all? Or are you basing that off of, say, you followed it religiously through the news?

By not even following it from him just being an officer, you know, because he took that oath. Now, I treat him like shit. I wouldn't be telling the only people I would tell the inmates about someone's jacket would be the child molesters and rapist. Like, fuck all them. Like, I had done it. I don't care. I don't want them on my block. But I wouldn't... I would do what I was supposed to do on the block.

You know, you need toilet paper. I'll give you a toilet paper. If you need, you know, if you're indigent... Right. Do what my job was supposed to do. I'm not going on my way for you and all. You know? I probably would ask.

you why the fuck you would do you know do something like that though no doubt i've had but i asked a lot of convicts why they did that because i want to get in there what they were thinking in their head sure and you and watch what their actions are with how they look at you and how they speak to you and everything else if they are remorseful or they just don't give a shit you know right so Kyle is this how you were treated on day one no no so as soon as i got so i i i started my first 30 days we were in solitary confinement because it was a high profile um they sent me to protective custody at first and um of course somebody had a bag of pills waiting for me already they knew i was getting off the bus and they said first one's on me next one's on you i said they're going to be

at first or next then not i didn't spend a whole lot of time at protective custody so i went and signed out to uh gp in general pop i did my time at gp and then um i only had one problem with one of the LTs in there, the lieutenants. And then eventually at the end, he figured out that I wasn't that bad of a guy. I was making changes. I was helping people. And he apologized to me when I walked out those prison doors. Today, I still talk to the deputy warden.

And he's got a quote in my book about what kind of person I was in prison and what I became today. So I showed my true colors. but I think what they liked about me, I took my lickens, you know. I took accountability. I was very transparent about my case and who I was. And, you know, I had no, anybody could read my paperwork. I mean, there was no snitching in there for any means. And it was just me being an addict and letting my addiction control my life and it turned

into utter chaos. So most of those people in there, they were. respect me. And like I said, Ian, I'm back in, you know, speaking to those guys in prison that are struggling and giving them hope today, you know, and working with the Ohio Department of Rehabilitation and Corrections today. So I feel like they respect me today. They, they, they showed, I showed them, I can change. How did the other, the convicts treated you, though? Oh, very respectful. Of course, I got tried. You know, I handled it. Right. You know, I have background in boxing, wrestling.

I had no problems. And I even did some time that people that I had a piece in putting them in prison. And believe it or not, we broke bread. And I became closer with them. Even when after I was homeless for a short time, I got my first apartment. It was back in the hood where I used to kick doors in. I'll never forget a couple dope boys come rolling up in the driveway. And they popped out.

And I'm like, what's up? They're like, first of all, welcome to the hood. And you're one of us now. Those guys respected me, because I did my time, you know. Street credit, I guess, you know. Right. Ian, you know about street cred, don't you? But it is.

And, you know, being on both sides, many, I'm not going to a lot. It's a beautiful thing. Right. You know, I understood that I judge some books by a cover. You know, I was guilty of that. And now I understood people, addiction, mental health. You saw it. A lot of people.

that were incarcerated and struggle with addiction of mental health. I'm sure you saw it. Oh, yeah. And a lot of them truly aren't bad people. They made bad choices because of those problems.

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Shopify thinks ahead of us, you know, and it thinks about the customer more than anything. Every day I'm thinking about some other new business. But Shopify is doing it to me because it's so easy to use. It's like I can't stop. I'm addicted. Start your free trial at Shopify.com. ...at they never dealt with. Smitty, do you think the prison is designed to treat law enforcement officers differently that are incarcerated? Or is that something that the inmates set up amongst themselves?

In Pennsylvania, well, in Philly, they put you in people in people. right away. If you sign out, like there was one, it was a Philly cop, D1 Pod 1, he might have lasted two days. Next to you know,

both his arms were broken. Like that, but that's Philly. You know, Philly's a whole different animal. I'm sure if the same thing, like in Rikers Island, a cop goes in there and he goes,

JP, like he ain't making out of there alive. Rikers is crazy. Upstate, there was one, there was a state trooper in there for rape. He must have had 35 years in already. And the other convicts told me that dude had a fight every day when he first got there, every day.

And he was a big guy. He was a guy that would feed the hawks. He had pet hawks. He would grab a mouse from inside the block, go outside in between B-yard, go like this, wave it, and the hawk will come right down, and he'll feed it to the hawk. And he would smoke a cigar all the time

because we were allowed to smoke. You're allowed back then, 2016, 2017, smoking was still allowed. So after 40 years, he's still in there. If he's not dead, you know, no one bothered him. But when he first got there, I'm sure, especially in Greater Ferd in the 70s and 80s, that was ran by, you know, JBM.

I mean, well, not JBM, the Blackm, and the nation of Islam. So I'm sure he had his shit kicked out of him. Do you think it depends on what the cops are for? So say it's a corrupt cop that's, you know, helping the drug dealers tip them off when the cops are coming. They might have a better chance than say like the corrupt cops that's there for raping someone.

I'm sure they'll get hooked up by whoever's with that cartel. I mean, whoever the drug dealers are, be like, yo, look out for him. I'm sure that happens with something. something like that, but a straight piece of shit cop that raped somebody or, you know, another one in Philly, uh, karate guy, too. He raped, he raped a chick. And he was a decorated cop and he got sent away.

They also, in Pennsylvania, they will, if you're high profile, they'll ship you to another state also. So you might go to Ohio, Minnesota. to somewhere out there. Except for Bill Cosby, they didn't do that. No, no. But he knew people from the neighborhood. Bill Cosby.

There was people from Richie Allen projects that were still there. So. Now, Kyle, I think the public, you know, when they hear about high profile people that go to prison or say a cop like yourself and they hear protective custody, they think, you know, that's a very sweet setup.

What was that like for your experience? It was controlled movement. A lot of it was gang members that dropped out. Yeah, they dropped out, snitched, or they ran up a big, you know, bill on getting substrips in the prison and they couldn't pay their debt. There was doctors. There was cops. There was politicians. But it's not sweet.

It's controlled. And you're dealing with sometimes the worst of the worst. in there, you know, and they're still up to no good. And I liked general population way better in a state prison. That's what I liked. And I thrived better. I could get into programming. I could move. I could go work out every day. And I could just do my time, my four years, because four years was long enough. And I don't want to be cooped up in protective custody. So it's not a sweet spot. Explain the layout. You know, like in the feds for me, when you're in protective custody or even administrative segregation. It's just a cell. Yeah. You know, half the size of the one we're in right now.

And that's it. There's no movement except for 30 minutes a day, Monday through Friday. Well, yeah. And, and, you know, so we had individual cells, but it was like on its own little floor. There wasn't much to it. And then we were only out on the yard, like very limited time. So it was like, you're right. You're like, you're in a big box is all you are. It's a box. When you're in general, pop, you can move. So there's nothing sweet about it at all. Now, Smitty, do you think there's something wrong with how inmates are treated just based on, you know, maybe their celebrity status or just being a cop? You know, sometimes the shoe is used for punitive reasons or protective custody. But say you're a cop that's no different than one of the inmates in there that have committed a crime, but they're being treated a lot harsher.

What do you think about that? It's prison. I mean, you got to have mental toughness. You don't have mental toughness, he ain't going to make it. You got to do what you got to do to survive in there. I'm sure if Kyle or a dude came at him with a whack inside his cell, Kyle would fight back, you know, and I'm sure try to kill that guy too. Now he just turned his 15 years or four years that he did into a life sentence.

I mean, that's the mentality you got to have. know. To survival of the fittest. Yeah. It's all it is in there. It's alpha male world, except for a couple of betas that pranks around. No. Now, Smitty, do you think that prison could actually rehabilitate someone, especially after meeting Kyle?

Absolutely. With the right programs. With the programs. And I was going to actually bring this up because it's actually happened to a guy, former convict that I know. The programs, when I came through at CFC at this was back in 98,

there was hardly anything to help. I believe the return rate is 80% that you go back to prison. And one thing I think they should start doing, ones that are sentenced

and about to go home. Like the lifers, they can go home too anything can happen but they should have programs as in how to set yourself up when you leave is there any programs like that now

is there any programs how to teach you how to pay bills how to be responsible like that like life things that they never had in their life before you know they might in the hood

you might never even seen a bill everything cash you know what do they have now that will set them up to be successful out there that's what they need to start doing besides the programs of you know all the programs they have that in pennsylvania like you can get a college degree from volanova university you can get certificates from temple you can get an h-vac license a barber license be a chef a lot of the restaurants in center city or former convicts the suey chefs guys right Yeah, they have all those programs, but why are they doing with their money?

I don't think there's any programs that will help. And we're doing some of that stuff in Ohio, actually. Are you? Like, you were homeless when you left. Yeah, yeah. Like divorce. I went through a divorce, bankruptcy. Yeah.

And it was in the middle of COVID, which was even worse, you know. Right. You remember that time. Yeah. So, no, you're right. We got to set people up for success instead of failure. Right. And that's why the recidivism rate continues.

to be high. Right. So in Ohio, we're doing that with reentry is what we call it, reentering back into society. So we've been getting in there. I work with a guy who's got 23 years he did in the prison system. And he has created a program. He goes back in some of these prisons and he works with these guys before. And then when he gets out, he's got reentry housing for him. Then he's, he takes them around to set up a checking account, gets employment. And I think it's a beautiful. beautiful thing. And I know you like it too because it saves taxpayer money. And it sets people up for successful lives. Right. And to be honest, that person that committed that crime and he did his 20 years and he gets out, he has nothing, he doesn't know what to do.

What do you think he's going to do? He's going to commit another crime. And that, and the next victim could be actually you. And that's what people got to look at. Right. Nope. I agree. you know. Kyle, do you feel like you'd be able to approach a prison guard about, say, any issue you had, especially now after listening to Smitty's perspective of how he would have treated you on day one. Did you run into any issues? Like that, say you needed, you know, an extra roll of toilet paper or basic necessities. Were you worried about asking guards for help or assistance?

No, and I think I didn't because coming from that field, because, I worked in corrections for four years prior to being Road Patrol, then Detective Bureau and everything. And I still looked at the aspect, I trusted them. You know, I can go up and ask them. So I never had any issues like that. And I'm very grateful and thankful that they didn't treat me differently. But no, I never, never did have any issues and probably never will,

but I'm not going back to prison either. So, smitty, do you think that everyone deserves a second chance? If you asked me this 20 years ago,

25 years ago, I would have said no. But I see people can change, you know, so I believe second chances can be done.

I'm even, even the juvenile lifers, um, them getting out. Absolutely. like 40, 50 years locked in. The only problem is when they get out, they've been locked up since they were a juvenile.

They don't know what the hell to do. They never had to pay a bill in their life except that $15 cable bill, you know, from the prisons or fill out a commissary slip. But absolutely second chances. Do you think there's some crimes that don't deserve that? Oh, yeah. Anyone who touches a kid,

rapes, any of that. They actually should be buried at six in green. Six of green is six feet under grass. Like any of them. Because there ain't no rehabilitation for them. There is none. They're sick in the head. Every one of them.

Actually, every one of them should have a death penalty. I don't care of you. Even if you're looking at child porn, death penalty. You know, I have no problem with that. I will even pull the switch. Kyle, what about you coming out of prison? You know, you have a second chance at life now, but did you feel like that in the beginning coming out? No, not at first, but I'm going to tell you what.

It was very trivial, but it was very meaningful when a guy gave me a chance to fry chicken with my first job. I'm like, I'm getting a second chance already. And that was at 9.50 an hour when people were. coming in to while I was frying chicken from the community, taking pictures of me creating memes to tear me down. But I'm like, man, somebody's already believing in me to fry chicken. I was actually getting a second chance. And I'm grateful. I've gotten so many, I mean, where I am today, I mean, you couldn't have wrote a better book, you know what I mean? Because I have clearly gotten a second chance. I'm sitting here with you guys and, you know,

being able to convey my message, you know, on a national level with Smitty and you, Ian. And so, yeah. And I think second chances are deserved, but I agree with Smitty on the sex stuff. I'm not down with any of that stuff at all. I just, I think there's a really tough time fixing those people. Now, you're in a very public position. How do you earn trust back? Just in general, not necessarily, you know, running for public office again, but, you know,

just in life. speaking of I am actually I was on the ballot recently in in my county I actually am now set on the Delaware County Republican Central Committee which it was tough but there were a lot of people there that came to me because they saw what I was already doing in the community that I was out helping people I have changed and put forth you know effort but I think a lot of it was I didn't only talk it, but I walked it too. And they see that I'm being genuine. You know, I'm not out there. You know, of course, we want to make money like what my hat says, you know, you got to get rich. But also, you got to give back too. And that's how I've really probably gained

a lot of trust. I help a lot of people that are struggling with addiction like myself. I, you know, I go in and speak in the prisons. But I also try to help out with the homeless population. too because I once found myself homeless. So I think by those actions and continuing to, you know, be out there, that's how I've gained trust. But I also got out in front of some people in my own community. I apologize. I took responsibility. And I've been transparent about everything I did.

I think that's how you do. Be honest. Be honest. Like somebody says. I started or not in 2013. and we make bike apparel. The best part of Shopify for me is our ability to run the business as essentially non-technical people. We're able to admin everything on the back end, front end, and sell things online easily.

If Shopify were a bike accessory, I think it would actually be the bicycle. It's the thing that you do the thing on. We run the business on Shopify. Start your free trial on Shopify.com. I started or not in 2013. and we make bike apparel. The best part of Shopify for me is our ability to run the business as essentially non-technical people. We're able to admin everything on the back end, front end, and sell things online easily.

If Shopify were a bike accessory, I think it would actually be the bicycle. It's the thing that you do the thing on. We run the business on Shopify. Start your free trial on Shopify.com. I'm Keana and I leveled up my business with Shopify. Once I figured out that Shopify was a thing, I never turned back. I can create a site with my eyes closed. Shopify thinks ahead of us, you know, and it thinks about the customer more than anything.

Every day I'm thinking about some other new business. But Shopify is doing it to me because it's so easy to use. It's like I can't stop. I'm addicted. Start your free trial at Shopify.com. And I'm an honest human being, you know, I'm not corrupt anymore. No, Smitty, you've encountered a lot of, you know, cons or ex-cons that have said they've changed, I'm sure, in the boxing gym too, that, you know, I've come along the way looking for that second chance. Would you trust Kyle today after hearing what he said and would you give him a second chance? Yeah, absolutely.

It's funny because our pal program that we started, uh, We have a guy who actually did a little bit of time at Greaterford. And we needed another coach. So I was one of the coaches for this power program, and I thought of this guy, Anthony, right? That's his name, Anthony. And I walked up to him and I asked him, because he actually did time at Phoenix.

And he was so happy that I asked him this. Why? Because that's what he wanted to do was give back to kids because, you know, he did a couple years of state. So the funny thing was you have to be certified from under USA boxing. And he had a felony and he denied him. And I fought for him. I actually, he didn't know this. I had to call Colorado, talk to the person and tell him, what is a better person to have that someone who's been through it.

Yeah, I'm on the law enforcement side and I've seen it, but how can I even tell these kids to turn their life around? When I have someone here that's turned their life around who's actually a very successful tattoo artist

who has a big following and he has his own tattoo studio in Bluebelt, Pennsylvania. And he got married. He turned his whole life around and he's real into his body Like he is like built like a Mac truck and I gave him that chance. And he told his mom and his mom was so happy.

Like, you know, like Fox 29 News came and he did a thing on our Pau program. And he's like, mom, look, first time I'm on the news and it's not for something bad, you know. So like people deserve a second chance. And it was the best decision I ever made. Because when we first started about PAL program and we told about each other, right? I told him I was like, I don't want those kids to know what you did until they get to know you. A month later, he told him who, what, you know, what he did. And then how he succeeded after he got out.

And he's a success story. And I'm like, we're very grateful to have him as a coach at a gym, you know. And it's interesting to bring up the PAL program. we have one in Lancaster Isle, and I go in and speak to the kids there. Yeah. I'm very, I'm very, yeah, it's a great program. Right. Yes.

Yes. Yeah. Kyle, why did you want to have this conversation today? What do you think the public benefits from having these dialogues? Well, I think it's great because there's both sides. And there's a lot of experience here between the two of us. And I think it sheds some light on stigma. sometimes people don't know the truth because it's always in the newspaper or social media,

which you know there's a lot of false statements and fake news out there. And I just think this kind of conversation, it sheds a whole new light, and it actually gives more respect and understanding and clarity to corruption, addiction, what's behind those prison walls, and also second chances. As you know, Ian and I both know about second chances, you know? Yeah, and I think that's one of the themes I really love on the show where you can have former, say, correctional officers or police officers interact, especially with me because I was formally incarcerated,

because there's so many people that are anti-police, especially ones that come out of prison. I hate the cops, this and that. And I think just having these types of conversations, I mean, we have more law enforcement officers now on the show than inmates. And I think those are some of our best episodes, because you get something different every time, whereas maybe a lot of the prison stuff is kind of repetitive.

But I think the law enforcement episodes are great. Smitty, same question back to you, what you think the importance is of having these dialogues. Understanding of both sides. I think, like what Kyle said about with the false. So like when you see a video on the news of a cop shooting or a cop, they're saying it's a bad job that's only 10 seconds of the video they didn't you see the whole minute of it before that the why because it sells it's it's they don't give you what led up to it right negativity sells

then the cop gets locked up and then the cop goes through trial then the cops found not guilty because they show the whole goddamn video in the courtroom and the jury finds them not guilty um a lot of people don't understand that and some of the people putting out false stuff for social media is like sheep following everyone like why don't you just fact check everything that's what i do someone posts or something and i was like all right let me search this right and it's complete opposite of what someone started and usually is someone who starts it is so they can get views because they get shared a thousand times you know so this is actually important have both people's point of view. And also I like that at the beginning of this

conversation, Smitty was honest enough to say, man, I don't like this guy at all. Oh, absolutely. And now he likes me. Right. But that's what this conversation also is about, too, that people have these false assumptions of things. You know? Right. And the stigma and, you know, opinions. And then you know what opinions are like assholes, you know? Right.

We all got one. But I liked how it began and it resonated with me. And it showed what a good guy you are and how genuine. You're not only honest, but you know what? You're open-minded too. Right. Now, somebody, if you didn't know what he was in prison for and didn't even know we went to prison or was in law enforcement, what would you have thought of him, just off camera, you know,

having a conversation with him. a good guy. Yeah, we hit it off right away, do. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that goes to show kind of like a bigger message, you know, in the world today. Obviously, you know, it's important for people to know who are sex offenders or rapists or maybe even a murderer in some situations. But, you know, I think that the baggage of labeling someone causes a bigger rift than some people may think.

It's close. It's like that saying, a close makes the man. They don't find out who the person is inside. They only look at their first appearance. You're right. Until you talk to that person and then you find out you might have similarities, you know. Awesome. Well, I appreciate you both for, you know, taking the time to do this.

We'll have the links to your organization, Smitty and your book, Kyle, and everything you've got going on in the description. And for the audience, if you haven't watched your individual episodes of these two, we'll have those linked as well. And if anyone has any, you know, thoughts of more of these. types of episodes we'd love to hear them yeah thank you thank seeing yeah yeah thanks it was an honor and a pleasure as always you know yeah with you too smitty yeah it's good to to be able to keep the relationship over the years with you guys i met smith what was it 24 week first i think yeah yeah

and then kyle 20 23 early on yeah we've stayed connected yeah um and smitty you want to have some uh ketchup up on your eggs yeah oh do you put ketchup i do i do see there's two of us i love ketchup on Oh, that's communism.