Locked In with Ian Bick - Army Veteran Exposes How Afghanistan Deployment Led to a Life of Addiction & Struggle | Jonathan Bittner

Episode Date: February 23, 2025

Jonathan Bittner, Army Veteran, explains how his deployment to Afghanistan led to addiction. He shares his experience in combat, the impact of war, and how PTSD influenced his substance use. Jonathan discusses the challenges of returning to civilian life and his path to recovery. He talks about the struggles veterans face and the process of healing after service. #ArmyVeteran #AfghanistanWar #CombatPTSD #VeteranAddiction #MilitaryStruggles #WarOnDrugs #TrueStory #Redemption Thank you to LUCY for sponsoring today’s episode: Let’s level up your nicotine routine with Lucy.  Go to HTTP://LUCY.CO/IANBICK and use promo code (IANBICK) to get 20% off your first order. Lucy has a 30-day refund policy if you change your mind.  Connect with Jonathan Bittner: Website: https://www.chestnuthilltherapycollective.com/jonathanbittner Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jbittfragrance_reviews?igsh=Yzllc3c2MGxyeGhl TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@jbittfragrance_reviews?_t=ZT-8txzwwC5HEg&_r=1 Hosted, Executive Produced & Edited By Ian Bick: https://www.instagram.com/ian_bick/?hl=en https://ianbick.com/ Presented by Tyson 2.0 & Wooooo Energy: https://tyson20.com/ https://woooooenergy.com/ Buy Merch: https://convictclothing.net/collections/convict-clothing-x-ian-bick Timestamps: 00:00:00 Introduction and Family Background 00:04:15 Choosing a Military Path Over College 00:08:38 Joining the National Guard: Training and Stationing Experiences 00:13:08 Switching Military Deployment Orders 00:17:56 Traveling and Experiencing Afghanistan 00:22:28 First Encounter with Combat 00:27:10 Adjusting to Life After Deployment: Mental Health Struggles 00:31:25 Coping with Guilt and Alcohol Dependency 00:36:05 Emergency Hospital Visit and Substance Use 00:40:43 Trauma as a Gateway to Addiction 00:45:18 Navigating the PTSD Program Transition 00:49:48 Understanding Addiction 00:54:14 Coping with Trauma and Tragic Events 00:58:42 Navigating PTSD Treatment and Medication Challenges 01:03:18 Founding the Honor and Courage Foundation 01:08:28 Overcoming Panic Attacks and Achieving Academic Success 01:12:31 Unnoticed Veterans and Redemption Stories Powered by: Just Media House : https://www.justmediahouse.com/ Creative direction, design, assets, support by FWRD: https://www.fwrd.co Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Jonathan, welcome to locked in. Thanks for coming up from you're in the Philly area, right, Pennsylvania? Yes, I am. Awesome. We love our Pennsylvania guests. We always get so many that come out because Connecticut is not too far from like New Jersey, Philly, Massachusetts, and New York, of course. Yeah, thank you so much for having me.

I'm really excited to be here today. Yeah, and thanks for being an avid listener of the show. I love when listeners get to reach out, come on the show, and you were even surprised with how fast we got to, booked. It was very, very quick, and I've been following you for a while now, and I really appreciate all the different stories of the people on here just sharing about their lives and the experiences that they've had. Of course, that's what the platform's here for. Did you grow up in Pennsylvania? Yes. I was born in Philadelphia, moved out to the suburbs with my family,

and so I've been living in probably the same area, pretty much my whole life, except when I was in the military. Okay. And did you have siblings, too? Yeah. So I have three brothers and a sister. I have a twin brother. We are the youngest. There's a huge age range within my siblings, my oldest brothers, I think in his 50s now. So I'm 37. So it's quite a huge age gap. But we all get along fairly well now, but not without its turbulence over the years. And what did your parents do for work? So my dad worked, I believe is in like network security, some kind of computer stuff. My mom was what they called a companion, so she worked at a retirement home. So she would take care of the elderly individuals.

So she was like a private contractor in some ways, hired by the family members to take care of their loved ones. So she would go in to their laundry for them, kind of take them out on errands, doctors' appointments, things like that. She also worked with a special needs woman. So she really has a heart for taking care of people. That's awesome. Were you and your siblings, the ones that were closer and age, close growing up? Somewhat. So my twin brother, we were fairly close.

Growing up, we still are close, a lot closer now. Very opposite of each other. I always make a joke. He got the brains and I didn't. So my oldest, my next brother up, we had a little bit. a rough patch over the years. I think he was just jealous that my brother and I were born. The story is that my parents promised them a dog, and then what they got was two little brothers. So my sister is the next one up, and we get along. Again, she is a little bit older.

Then my oldest brother is in his 50s in Oklahoma. So we are fairly close. We text back and forth, have a really similar interest in music. So that's a way that we're able to connect. Would you be the only one that went off to the military? Yes. So my dad was in the Marine Corps in the 60s into the 70s or in Vietnam. And I kind of got that from him. I have a huge lineage in my family of people who served. My great grandfather was in World War I. My great uncle was, I believe, in World War II or Korea, cousins that were in, two uncles in Vietnam, then my dad was in during the Vietnam time.

So I had no plans of ever attending college. Like I said, I really struggled in high school. And so college was kind of out of the picture and the next best thing was the military. But this is something I grew up wanting to do my whole life as long as I can remember just being outside, playing army, with the neighborhood, kids and, again, that's what my sights were fixed on.

What did your mom think about that aspiration? She was a little bit worried. She was not thrilled. Neither was my dad in that case. My dad never talked about his time during the military. That was a different time when military members were spit on in the 60s and the 70s. So they didn't really want that for their kids. I remember going back looking at my dad.

We were at a work function of his one time. I think it was like, take your sons to work day. And somebody asked him, are your son's going to be Marines like you? And he said, I sure hope not. But I went Army. Again, my parents were very supportive, even though they weren't thrilled. Did you have any friends that were going off with you? Or were you kind of like the outlier in high school that wanted to go?

Yeah, so I had a couple friends that were interested. They went off. A couple of them deployed overseas. some of them went Marine Corps. One went in the Navy, a couple Army guys. So there was a few of us. But it was just kind of me during most of my career. I never really got to see those guys again.

When you enlisted, was it kind of hard seeing some of your friends enjoying the normal college life? It was. And that's kind of the joke of being in the military. You're 18, 19 years old, and all your friends are off to come. college and you're off to war. Social media was, so I was deployed in 2007 and 2008 to Afghanistan. During that time, my space was around. And Facebook had just started.

So I remember being on Facebook and adding a lot of these high school people that I knew and just singing their college lives and at parties and I'm deployed overseas in a war zone, having a completely different experience in them. But looking back, it's I'm glad I went that route, and I'm glad I also missed the traditional college route. So you don't think you would ever go back in time and change that? I would not, because if it wasn't for the decisions that I made and my deployment overseas and all my mental health issues that I came down with, I wouldn't be here now doing what I'm doing now, and I would not be here doing this podcast with you, that's for sure. That's very true. So basic training, you enlist. What's that? Like, how old are you exactly 18? I was 18, so I actually went to enlist on my birthday. And I ended up with some hearing problems from early childhood, which then delayed my enlistment a little bit just by about a month. I needed to get a waiver due to hearing loss. So when I was 18, it was beginning of my senior year of high school. And while everybody else was looking at.

at colleges, looking at all the fun they were going to have. I was like, I can't wait to leave for the military. So basic training was what you would expect, really miserable but fun at the same time. You know, I've kind of learned over the years that two things can be true at the same time. So getting yelled at, getting up early, having to exercise all day out in the hot South Carolina sun wasn't necessarily like. like the most exciting thing to do. But looking back on it, the people that I met, the experiences that I had, I would not trade it for anything. Was it what you expected it to be, the training

aspect of it? It was. I, again, I was very obsessed with the military growing up every kind of special that they had on TV, mostly about the Marine Corps. I would see videos of their boot camp and kind of put myself in those situations mentally. So it was what I expected. I didn't really necessarily think I was going to have as much fun as I did, though. And why did you pick the Army for the branch? So that's actually a good question. So looking at the military as a whole, I knew I didn't want to be in the Navy.

I didn't want to get stuck on a ship. I didn't want to be in the Air Force. There's a lot of jokes around about the Air Force. Marine Corps is kind of what I wanted to get out of it. So I had met with the Marine recruiter one time and just looking at different jobs. Nothing seemed guaranteed. I believe the Marine Corps is more about what the Marines need from you is where they'll put you. On the Army, on the other hand, it was a lot more flexibility.

I got to really decide what I wanted to do. So how long did it take to get through the training and then get to where you were going to be stationed? So I was in the National Guard, to the Army National Guard for Pennsylvania. So it's a reservist part-time situation. So two weeks, well, quote unquote, two weeks in the summer, one weekend a month type of deal. That kind of plays into this whole thing too, where I would be stationed closer to home. So it was, I believe I left at the end of June for basic training. I ended up coming back in right before Thanksgiving of 2006.

So during that time, it was about five or six months of training, then coming home, and then my first, quote unquote, duty station with the National Guard was probably about 15, 20 minutes from where I lived at the time, which is really an interesting piece because we're serving and living among the same. community that we live in. And so it's really cool. Also get to help out with natural disasters. So there's a state side and then also the federal side. And what would a typical day be like? So on the weekends, we show up at drill. So that kind of varies week by week. Sometimes we would be out a place called Fort Indian Town Gap, which is out towards the center of Pennsylvania. Place is miserable. I swear they have their own weather patterns. So we would be out on the ranges like shooting weapons and

qualifying, just doing a lot of like convoy drills. But that only lasts at a short amount of time before I had orders to go overseas. And how much money do you start off making? Not a lot. So as a part-time soldier, I think at the time, probably $200 a weekend. So it really wasn't a whole lot. if I was on active duty, I think it would probably have been two grand somewhere along that. So when I was in basic training, I was getting paid a full-time salary. I don't really remember what it was. It's going back sometime, but it wasn't a lot. So did you have to work a second job?

Yeah. So during that time, I was, after I had gone through basic training, came home. I believe my first job back was working at a tuxedo shop, which is the week. weirdest thing. So getting into formal wear, just registering weddings, things like that, proms, helping individuals find what kind of tuxedos they wanted. So what happens next? How long are you going doing this part-time before it becomes full-time and you get deployed? Yeah. So looking back in my mind, I believe I came home in November. And then I believe it was by January or February. There's kind of this little group huddle at my unit one day. A couple of our names were called off a list.

And we reported and found out we actually had orders to deploy to the Sinai for a peacekeeping mission, which for me was a little bit depressing. The reason I had joined the military was to go to either Iraq or Afghanistan and fight in those wars, rather than going on a peacekeeping. mission. So as I usually do, I kind of went around my chain of command and had my orders switched to go to Afghanistan because I did not want to go to the Sinai for a peacekeeping mission. And was that easy to do to get your orders changed? It wasn't. So at my battalion, there was another individual, a good buddy of mine who, we had the same MOS. So when I was a I went into the military, I was a chaplain assistant, which is a bodyguard for the chaplain. We make a joke in this MOS and this job, as this is the most non-religious religious job.

When most people think of a chaplain assistant, they're thinking of a chaplain. But it's against a Geneva convention for chaplains to carry weapons in combat. They're considered non-combatants. so they need somebody there to protect them overseas. And so that's the main responsibility that I had. But anyway, there was two of us chaplain assistants at my battalion, no chaplain. And we were both slotted to go to the Sinai. Then what ended up happening was he got pulled for Afghanistan.

And then I was still slated to go to the Sinai. And we had a little bit of a talk through text at the time. And he, again, wanted to go to the Sinai. I wanted to go Afghanistan. And so we contacted somebody who was a lot higher up than us. And we were thankfully able to get our orders switched. Okay. And how did the rest of your squad or battalion look at you when you did that?

So actually, they don't really know how it happened. I remember my first sergeant at the time. He goes, I don't know what happened, but your orders are switched. and this other guy and myself we kind of looked at each other and smiled. And it was kind of a secret that we kept for our whole time. In the military,

I don't think it would have been that big of a deal if we would have said something, but we did kind of go out of the order of how things needed to be done. But we made it work. Why did you want to go to Iraq or Afghanistan? Really, it's kind of,

I guess the best way to explain it is number one, 11. I was in eighth grade when that happened. And it was such a big experience for me living through that where, and I'll never forget the planes hitting the towers and being caught into like the gymnasium and just hearing about these attacks and then everything that unfolded over the next couple days, weeks, months. And just having this idea in my head that those people needed to kind of be avenged the losses that occurred during those attacks. So that was a big thing.

Afghanistan was definitely on the radar at the time Iraq was kicking off. And so that is the main reason. But another way to kind of look at it is if you can just imagine you're like a professional athlete, say in the NFL. And everybody wants to go. to the Super Bowl, right? It's like you train all year. It's like you play all the games in hopes that you get to go to the Super Bowl, which is the biggest game ever. Same in the military. A lot of us train to go to war. And for those who aren't able to go to war, it's kind of a little

bit of a disappointment. So that's the other, the easiest way to kind of explain it to. So where did they end up putting you? So I ended up in Afghanistan. So within probably about a year of coming home from basic training, I had orders to Afghanistan. So I deployed with another Pennsylvania unit called the Third of One or Third Armor. They were out of Lewisburg, Pennsylvania, kind of a mixture of infantry, artillery, armor guys. And we deployed shortly after that, so December 3rd, went down to Fort Bragg, North Carolina, did a train up for a couple months, and then we were shipped out all over Afghanistan. I believe there was about 15 different bases that our battalion was stationed at.

And part of my responsibility with the chaplain was to visit every single base that we had individuals. So it was just a really busy year. You're ready to upgrade your nicotine routine. Lucy's got you covered. Lucy is 100% nicotine, zero tobacco. So you get exactly what you're looking for without that extra baggage. And with Lucy Breakers, you get a built-in flavor capsule that gives you an extra burst of flavor and hydration whenever you want. I personally love the espresso flavor.

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And is it just you and the chaplain or is there more to the team? Most of the time, it was just a chaplain of myself. So we would fly in helicopters to get to these places, do convoys, wherever we could go. So we were constantly on the road, which is really neat. experience in terms of, if you can just imagine, most of the guys are stuck on one little fob or an outpost for the whole deployment, seeing the same thing every day. Chaplain and I got to travel, so we were all over Afghanistan, all the way out east, near Pakistan, all the way out west near Iran, up north, down south in Kandahar. So we got to

see a lot of the scenery, got to experience a lot of different things that most people didn't get to experience. How dangerous was that position? It's very dangerous. So 2007 was when the Taliban made a comeback. So Iraq was the main focus for years leading up to it. And a lot of people are actually talking about Afghanistan as kind of being over for years the Taliban had threatened to come back. They had regrouped and unfortunately 2007 was the year that they came back. So it was fairly dangerous. There was a lot of rumors going around too. Chaplains had prices on their heads.

So if a Tauan fighter was able to kill a chaplain that they would get money, just because of the religious aspect of it. I don't know how true it was looking back at it on this, you know, today. But it would make sense at the time that that was the case. So just being on convoys, IEDs were a big threat. Also flying around in helicopters, most of the time was fairly safe, but kind of around that time period, a couple of helicopters had been shot down. So there is that threat, also a threat of ambushes, threats of rockets and mortars at wherever we were staying. Was Afghanistan what you expected it to be?

It was and it wasn't. It's hard to really say what is expected when it comes to war. You know, growing up, I watched a lot of war movies, heard a lot of war stories. So it was really a fascination of mine. But nothing really, even like your army training never really prepares you for what war is going to be like. And especially, nothing can prepare you for what you would actually see. What do you think is the biggest misconception? How final war can be.

There is no replay button, especially people who grew up playing like Call of Duty or Medal of Honor, as you kind of restart once you die. The misconception, too, is I would say war is probably about 99% boredom and 1% excitement, but that 1% excitement can really change your life forever. What were those 1% moments for you while you were there? So this is like a really deep question. Probably the first 1% experience that I ever had was shortly after we arrived, I think the first night that we were there, we got rocketed,

which is no big deal. It's something that you kind of get used to. But the first one I would say was a patrol. I was actually tasked to do what they call QRF, so quick reaction force, which is something kicks off during your time frame that you're on this. Quick, this QRF, you would go out and kind of handle whatever's going on. So it was probably maybe a month or two after we arrived and we kind of got this call that the MPs, military police, were in contact. There was an ambush. So we loaded up our vehicles and we're rushing out to help them out.

And so we kind of got off. The ambush occurred on Route 1 or Highway 1, which is really one of the few paved roads in Afghanistan. So it's very, very dangerous, a lot of IED attacks. So what happened, the MPs were ambushed from, I would say, probably 20 meters off the road. So it's fairly close. A couple rockets. They were on patrol with the local Afghan police force. And just going out there, we had learned that there's a couple killed in action, KIAs.

And just kind of leading up, we got out there and heavy traffic. A lot of the Afghans were just standing outside their vehicles, kind of figuring out what's going on. And when I'm talking about traffic, it's like, I'm from Philadelphia. It's almost like being on a scoicle at four or five o'clock in the evening where cars aren't necessarily moving. So in the Humvees, we're driving around pushing our way through when we show up on the scene. A burned out Afghan police vehicle. It's just a pickup truck. A guy had lost his leg.

Half of his leg was still in the vehicle. The other half was, you know, attached to him. And a couple people were killed. A couple of the police were missing. just helicopters circling around, just trying to find the people who had ambushed them. And I'll never forget. It's just this tense feeling of at any time something could happen. And thankfully nothing else did happen.

But on our way back, we're just driving back to the little fob that we were on. And what ended up happening was all of a sudden we stopped, see the MPs get out of their vehicles, and they're chasing down some people. And I think it was like an onion field or something like that. And it was nothing. They eventually got back into the vehicles and we returned back to base. It was just weird because a lot of the MPs were crying in tears. It really shook them up.

So that was really my first taste of war and what it was like. I lost a lot of friends during that deployment, really good friends, to combat and also one to suicide, which, you know, kind of adds into, you know, a deployment and the things that we come home with. How long were you there that first deployment? So it was about nine months. So we, our whole deployment was a year with the train up. And then we ended up coming back right actually right before Thanksgiving.

I think it was like I landed or I landed back in Philadelphia. I think it was like the day before Thanksgiving of 2008. What was the most important thing you were looking forward to or the biggest thing you were looking forward to when you got home? I guess the most like important thing I was looking forward to is just getting back to somewhat normal life if there is such a thing like that. And so again, the difference between like the National Guard and Reserves, it's like we're coming back to the civilian world. going back if we had a civilian job, hopefully if you still had one, you would go back to that. But we were living at home where active duty kind of just goes back to their bases and starts a train up right away. For me, I was actually really depressed coming home and didn't necessarily want to come home.

Just because there's experiences that I had, I knew things were going to be different. And I would rather have just stayed in Afghanistan than come home. So I was just not that excited. It was going to be good to see my family, though. Do you think if you joined a different branch of the military, you would have felt differently because you would have stayed in that routine and it just would have been on to the next mission? I think so.

I think that there is a possibility that that would have happened. But again, looking at everything, right? I'm somebody you can go back and look at things. For me, if I think I would have gone into whether it was like active duty army or the Marine Corps or, you know, what other branch, it's like I wouldn't have had the same experiences, either good or bad, right? So I think on that deployment, 15 of my friends were killed during that deployment. and coming back, that all plays into where I'm at now, where if I was in another unit, if I was in another branch, you know, again, I'm not saying that I'm thankful or happy that I lost those people, but it all plays a part of where I'm at now.

And so I don't, again, it kind of goes back to what I said earlier. If I was somewhere else, I wouldn't be sitting in this room now. What were some of the immediate struggles you faced as soon as you were? you got back. And so really one of the biggest things that I can remember is just feeling really uneasy. I guess is the biggest way to describe it. I had started having some mental health issues during my deployment to begin with. I was on medication towards the end. I just couldn't sleep. I just felt on edge. I would get angry very, very quickly. Like I would lose my temper. Coming back, like coming back to the states, I still had all those things, but it felt like the whole world

had changed. And I was kind of the same as I was before I left. So everybody else had changed, even though I thought like, oh, everything is going to be the same as when I left. But everything was completely different. Yeah, it's like life continues to go and it's where is your world's on pause, but everything around you is like you're pulled apart from that. Yeah, and that's exactly true. It's something that's so weird to describe to people. I'm not sure if it's saying for people who have been to prison or jail where, you know, your life is on pause and you get out and everything's so different because your life is on pause in some ways.

But that was my experience, and it was just a weird kind of experience to have. And was your mindset eager to go back overseas? Or were you done with it? What were you at mentally? Yeah, I was trying to go back. I was looking for other deployments. And Pennsylvania, it was one of the highest deployed states. And we had like an active duty or a deployment rotation similar to active duty.

It was probably about every other year or every two years. Another deployment was coming up. Unfortunately, during that time, I started to struggle with my mental health and that thing started to spiral down, which really made me miss out on another deployment. So tell us about that what happened. Yeah, so shortly after I came home, I started drinking a lot. Just trying to find a way to really numb the pain that I had experience. So one of my best friends, Derek Holland, was killed in an IED blast. And that really kind of tore me apart.

And then I lost another friend, the suicide, Jonathan Locher, towards the end of my deployment. And it was something that I really held on to as this is my fault that this happened. And kind of take a step back a little bit. I traveled, like I said earlier, with the chaplain. and Lucia had come up to me a couple months before or probably about a month before saying, hey, I'm struggling with my mental health. I want some medication or something. Who can I talk to?

And I kind of blew it off at the time. Like, hey, we're going home in a couple months. Everything's going to be fine. He was really in a place where he struggled. Not only seeing the loss of life, he had made a comment to me that a lot of the guys that we're losing, just seem to get younger and younger and younger and age. And there are some home issues that I actually found out years later, actually probably about two years ago. I found out part of the reason why he took his life with some issues that happened at home. But again,

I didn't know that at the time. So I kind of blew him off in that conversation. I think it was about a night, the night or two nights before he took his life. I had just been on on the road, quote unquote, on the road for about two weeks with the chaplain. Coming back, I think it was about 11 o'clock at night. It was dark. I saw him just all quiet and I didn't say anything. And the next day or two days after is when he took his life. And that was something that I held on to for a very long time. And it was something that I was just trying. I blame myself for it. A lot of guilt wrapped up into this, again, really good friend of mine. And all I could go back to was, you know, I had the opportunity to help him, but I didn't. So that was something, again, I struggle with.

So I drank a lot coming home. I would go to the VFW, which is really a great organization. They do a lot for the veteran community and the military. But the other thing with that is oftentimes times they have a bar. So I drank. I drank probably five, six, seven days a week. Open to close. I would show up at the VFW as soon as they would open, as soon as I would close, I would be there. And then another thing I got into was spice at the time. So I was looking for something a little bit stronger to kind of numb myself on the self-medicate. And spice is a synthetic marijuana, quote unquote marijuana, just a bunch of, I don't know exactly what's in it, but it's like a chemical sprayed that will get you high. Kind of the best way I've heard of it is like

playing Russian roulette. You never know what you're going to get bag by bag. So it was something I got into because it didn't show up on drug tests. And so I'd smoked this and then one of the, after I had smoked the last time, I ended up having a really negative experience that really kind of shifted my life in a different direction. Did you have any issues with drugs or alcohol prior to joining? No, I never did. And this was all because of mental health for me. So the spice piece came about.

Again, like I said, I was just trying to hide, you know, the pain to try to just not feel anything and it worked until I had a really bad experience where I ended up in the hospital. Why do you think you turned to alcohol for the first time? What was it in your head that, you know, brought you to, okay, alcohol is the answer? Really, it was kind of a combination of things. Number one is just being around other vets, like combat vets who shared similar experiences to me, where I would just go to the VFW talk with them and, of course, alcohol is there, and I just loved how I felt drinking. It was like all my worries, all the pain that I experienced deep down inside would just disappear until I would be sober again, and then it would all

creep back up. And so I was like, if I would drink again. Hey, want a cookie? Oh, I know you're just eight, so you're craving something a little sweet. Besides, one cookie isn't going to kill you. How about half? Just a bite? Bite it. Bite it. Bite it.

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It felt like a freight train was coming. and I was starting to panic a little bit just because I couldn't get rid of the feeling that I was feeling. So I remember being in my living room in this apartment that I was renting. And I was able to make it into the bathroom. I try to put my head under cold water just to try to see if that would pull me out of this. That didn't work. I went, go lay down. And all of a sudden, like, my legs and my arms started moving.

moving on their own, like up in the air. It's kind of the weirdest experience where my legs would go up in the air and then my arms would, and then it would just go down. And I remember texting a buddy of mine like, hey, I think I'm dying. And I remember being on this couch, texting that. And I was like, and he said, I'm going to be right over. And as clear as day, I remember crawling over to my door and it was like this weird lock. So I remember clear as day unlocking the door, then crawling back on the couch and just laying there. I get a text from him probably like a couple minutes later, hey, the door is locked. I don't even know like looking back at this situation if I had actually unlocked the door or if I had just hallucinated that. But anyway, he was able

to get in. He was like, I got to take you to the hospital. And I remember going out, walking out down the stairs, and I started throwing up blood, which is kind of shocked him a little bit, worried him. He's like, hey, I can't drive you to the hospital. We've got to call an ambulance. And he called an ambulance, and I guess because he had said that I smoked something, the police showed up and just turned into a situation where I was like, I didn't do anything illegal because Spice wasn't illegal at the time. I'm not sure what it is now. The cop finally left. I went into the hospital in the emergency room. I think it was just a little bit of oxygen and probably an IV. And I just remember one of the doctors asking, like, why did you do this? And it was like, for me,

it wasn't something I really knew the answer to. But years later, I can look back. I was just, I was hurting. I was just in a lot of pain. I was just trying to numb that the only way that I knew how. Were you still actively reporting for duty on the weekends during this period? I was. Shortly after that, it's my, we were, they didn't find out about this. luckily or else I think I would have gotten in trouble for using banned substance. But I was reporting. My military career was kind of going by the wayside at that point. My unit had known that I was drinking like very heavily.

And there was actually an officer, Major Ty, who and my first sergeant, and First Aren't Kelly. Both of them, I really played a role in saving my life in some way. So Major Ty, he unfortunately passed away a couple years ago. But they saw that I was struggling and they tried to be there for me, even having somebody take me to the VA to go get treatment or even just to get registered. I was really struggling with feeling suicidal during those years. It's something I struggle with for a while.

I'm just wanting to kind of end everything. And if it wasn't for my unit, they had actually even sent somebody over to collect all my alcohol and took it out of my house just so I couldn't drink. But there wasn't much that they could do. And then until a questionnaire, I think, popped up on an assessment about being suicidal. I'm wanting to hurt myself. And I had said yes. and that was kind of the start to the end of my career. Was there services available for you when you got back that could have prevented this?

If I would have been open, unfortunately during that time with mental health, it was, I don't know if things have changed. I hope things have changed. But it was this belief that if you said that you were struggling, your career was going to end. Ultimately, it ended up happening that way for me. thankfully because I don't know what would have happened if I didn't get the treatment. But shortly after the overdose, I was involved in therapy at a vet center that was near me. And then because of this overdose, as I call it, I ended up inpatient treatment. So there was some programs available.

While I was there, my unit was very supportive of the inpatient treatment aspect. Yeah, a lot of people. And we see this in prison a lot too. And the recovery world aren't able to talk about their mental health issues, especially back then, you know, years ago and even in high school and college because it's kind of frowned upon. People look at you as weak for talking about those issues. And even stigma, right? And I actually have never shared with my family about using substances.

And they knew I drank a little bit. My family, I didn't come from a family. who used alcohol. My dad, his, had a lot of alcoholics in his family. My dad stopped drinking a long time ago. I don't think he was a heavy drinker at that. My family, I kept this for a secret for a very long time, actually, until they hear this podcast. Do you think there's a direct correlation between witnessing and experiencing physical and mental trauma and, you know, that path to addiction? There definitely is. And there's kind of this, you know, it's like what comes first, the chicken or the egg, right? I think there is some genetic components to addiction, but there's also a huge trauma, right? I remember this saying like marijuana is a gateway drug. Well, actually trauma is a gateway drug. Right. A lot of people are, you know, experience a lot of trauma and they're looking for a way to medicate and not have to feel or a way to kind of work through. that trauma outside of like therapy. So a lot of people, you know, myself included, turn to substances. Yeah, I mean, you know, growing up, we were always taught that marijuana is a gateway drug. And, you know, I use marijuana now and it helps me sleep at night and stuff. And I don't

have any urges to do other drugs. I feel like it's all about your environment, your mindset, how stable you are. You know, the more I interview people, the more you kind of realize it is those traumatic experiences you experience in childhood or midlife, like in a circumstances like you, that lead to that. Yes. And marijuana, I think, is really helpful for a lot of people. I've used it in the past for a lot of panic. Really helpful. So it's to each their own, right? I think there's a lot of people out there that can't use any substances. And there's people that can. So what happens after the hospital visit? So actually, so I ended up in treatment at an inpatient PTSD program at the VA.

During this time, probably about seven weeks in, I ended up in a psych ward. So that was an interesting experience that I had. So I had gone through therapy in one of my inpatient sessions, just wasn't feeling safe. And the psychologist, who I worked with for years, I was in and out of this inpatient program. But she was like, hey, we got to take you over to the psych unit. So we got to take you over urgent care first. Again, I wasn't feeling safe, really struggled with suicidality during that time. And so she walked me over to urgent care and kind of get me checked in, got out of my like civilian clothes, got put in the pajamas, and I had the socks on that had like the

these grips on the bottom. And I was like, hey, I got to go smoke a cigarette. She got to come with you. And so I actually started, I bolted. And as soon as I get out the door, I started to run. And I just remember her chasing me. She's like, where are you going to go? And I like stopped.

And I was like, anywhere but there. And but she's like, well, where are you going to go? And she had a really good point because I wasn't going to make it far dressed like how I was. And so I ended up in the psych ward where the cops came, picked me up, drove me over to the locked unit. And so I went up there for a couple days and it was a wild experience. And what was that experience like for you? So I got up there.

I was really emotional. I was not in a good state mentally or emotionally. I was really angry. So they ended up putting me in a room by myself. because I didn't want to get put in the room with somebody else that I didn't know. I had this kind of this fear of, you know, what if I get hurt when I'm trying to sleep? Like, how am I going to sleep if somebody is, you know, in there that I don't know, right? So it was very uncomfortable so that I was like in this room by myself yelling, screaming.

And this nurse came in and they're like, and so instead of 302ing me, which is like an involuntary lockup. He said, hey, like, you volunteer to come here. And they wanted me to sign this, a form. There was like a 72-hour release form. And I was like, I'm not signing anything. I don't know what is happening. What is going on?

And I remember eventually this male nurse came in who was a vet. And he sat down on the floor with me and said, hey, like, just sign this form. That way in 72 hours, we'll let you go. You'll be able to go back into the PTSD program. And I was like, all right, I'll trust you because you're a vet. So I signed this form and he's like, let me go get you like medication. And so he got me a benz-o.

And I took it. I was kind of calm. Unfortunately, I had gotten there. I think it was like a Wednesday or Thursday night. and by the time 72 hours was up, it was on the weekend and they don't let people out on weekends. So I had to wait for Monday, which it was a shock because I had what they call a treatment team meeting in the morning. So I show up for this meeting. And I had met the psychiatrist a couple days earlier.

So I'm like, I'm ready to go home. I mean, I'm ready to go back into PTSD program. They already said I could come back. Then they kind of open up the psychiatrist started saying, like, oh, they're not going to let you back into that program. You might as well just stay here. And I was like, well, I'm feeling good now. I signed this 72-hour release form.

He said, you never signed anything. And I said, yes, I did. I signed it, whatever that day was that I came in. I said, no, you didn't. And I said, well, the medication that you got, gave me a couple days ago really made me feel a lot better. He said, I didn't give you anything. And I was in this place of kind of really surprise and shocked of, oh, no, like, who's going to believe me, right? And I'm just going to use this word. I don't like using this word. But at the time,

this is what was coming up. It's like, quote unquote, I'm the crazy one, right? They're going to believe a doctor over me. Like, I'm just a patient here, which really kind of gave me this realization that I could have been stuck because nobody was going to believe anything that I said because I'm in an acute psych unit. You know, obviously they're going to believe somebody else over me. What was your relationship with your parents and your siblings during this period of time? So we had a good relationship. They don't, they didn't really know the extent of what was going on. with me. I had moved out shortly after my deployment coming home because I was struggling. I wanted to kind of shield them from everything. So they knew I was an inpatient treatment and a PTSD program,

but they didn't really understand what was going on. And they really don't even now, no to the extent that I was struggling. Do you wish they knew at that time? No. To be honest, no. I think it would have just added a lot more anxiety for them, which was the whole point of why I didn't talk to them. And I've always kind of been this individual, even growing up, I'm very hard-headed, like very headstrong, where I kind of figure things out on my own, even if it is the wrong way to do things. Me too. So, I mean, I can look back in my life and has seen how that's benefited me over these years. So this was something I knew that I had to figure out on my own rather than have my family involved.

How did the National Guard react when they found out you were having these issues? So they were very, like I said, very supportive of the treatment. What I ended up happening was I ended up being med boarded. So it was like a medical board where they would find that I was if I was fit to serve. So by this time when the med board started, I had already been in treatment. I would probably say about six, seven months. So I would go for a couple months at a time. I would get out maybe a month, end up back in treatment.

And I was really struggling it with benzos at this time because they worked really good. But it kind of led into this, the substance abuse. I'm very hesitant to say like addiction oftentimes, but abuse. And so the med board process, started, and I ended up getting Mac retired in 2013. And do you get to keep benefits with that? I do.

So I'm fortunate enough to get access to a program called Vogue rehab through the VA, which I was able to use to go back to school. I get a little bit of retirement pay, not a whole lot, probably a couple hundred bucks a month, which actually goes to help pay for health care for my wife. Now, why do you say abuse versus addiction? What does that mean to you? So addiction for me is I could have stopped whenever I, if I wanted to. So abuse was I always use more than what was prescribed, which is also a place with addiction, right? It's a similarity. For me, I just, I view it as abuse.

again, just because there's this part where it's just I could stop at any time. But it was also like I wanted to use a lot more just to kind of get rid of the feelings that I was feeling. It could have gone either way. Do you feel like people throw out the word addiction too easily and there's more cases of abuse then? This is just my kind of thought process. I think so. you know, with addiction there is a definition, right, of having used more and more and more, you know, and eventually it, you know, as everybody knows, it leads to death institutions or, you know, jail.

And so it's like there is a lot of similarities between abuse and addiction. Just the way I categorize myself was abuse. But I think like addiction, you know, a lot of people, oh, I'm addicted to this or I'm addicted to Starbucks or something. It's like, well, it's actually, you may have a habit, but it's actually not an addiction. I think it takes. Looking to start 2026 with an unforgettable getaway. Fiji Airway's sale is on now. Fly nonstop round trip to Fiji from just 748.

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Well, and addiction is I feel like associated in such a negative way, you can be addicted to things in a healthy way to a certain extent. I mean, like, I'm addicted to what I do now, and that kind of is an addiction, but it's not necessarily like a negative addiction. You could compare a lot of entrepreneurs to that, you know, they're addicted and they're in it, you know, is that so much different than someone that's addicted to drugs? Yeah, it's not, right? And I completely agree with you. You know, people are addicted to good things, right? that maybe can take on an unhealthy pattern.

And so there is like that piece of addiction too. Yeah, it's more is it a healthy versus unhealthy level. And the abuse thing was interesting because I feel like when I was going through those phases of gambling very heavily, I would say that was more of an abuse thing because I could shut it off anytime and I was able to successfully walk away from that. And I have been in, you know, casinos since then. but I've learned to be able to walk away. And I feel like if it was a true addiction, it would have, I don't know, re-triggered it

and it would have spiraled out of control. But, you know, I've sports bet here and there, and I've gambled at the casino here and there, but nothing major. We're talking a few bucks, not thousands of dollars back in the day. So it's just interesting that. Yeah, I think there's a lot of overlap, right?

And I am not somebody who follows the mom, of complete abstinence, right? I think that kind of plays into the issue, right? You see a lot of people who may be in clean or sober for 20 years, and maybe they have a lapse of judgment and they use or drink. And then now all of a sudden it's kind of this big thing of like my life's a failure or I can't believe I just messed up like this. And, you know, I think to an extent, right, it's being mindful of what you're able to handle, but I think there's a lot of guilt, too, that comes with complete abstinence, where, you know, at least for me, right, I'm not speaking for everybody. It's like I've learned, like, hey, I can drink in moderation. You know, I can have a drink once a month or twice a month and I'm not going to have an issue. Eventually, after years of abusing benzos, you know, I could use benzos responsibly and not have an issue with that. When did you finally start to feel better mentally and physically? So I would say, I mean, I still struggle from time to time these days, but rewind a little bit.

So in 2014, one of my best friends had gone on a shooting spree in my area. There's a lot involved. I don't want to give his name out. It was just a really kind of a raw experience where he ended up taking the life of basically his ex-wife and a lot of her family and three different locations, a couple weeks before Christmas. At that time, I was just not in a good spot after this had happened. I had been doing fairly well. I had been out of treatment for a couple years, and that put me right into a bad spot.

So during this, the shootings and the events that was occurring during that day, I ended up getting picked up by the county detectives in Montgomery County. A weird situation, which is one of these weird events that I lived through where I woke up in the middle of the night because one of the shootings occurred maybe about a mile from my apartment at the time. I woke up to all these police cars going by, all these sirens. And I was like, there must be, because I also lived near a firehouse. And it's like, oh, there's probably like a fire. Went back to bed. Next morning I woke up and I saw on social media.

Shooting happened. It was like a vet. It's like, oh, man, this is like wild. I had a service dog at this time, Annie. She's retired now. She is, I think, 13 or 14 now. But I had gotten her from an organization called Puppies Behind Bars, which is based out of New York.

The dogs are raised and trained in prison by inmates. We can touch on this in a little bit. We had that at my prison. Okay. Yeah, so let's talk about that in a minute. But during this time, I was like, I got to take her out. And I was like, well, you know, there's somebody out there who could be right behind my apartment complex. I don't know.

So I went out, took her out. Obviously, nothing happened. And went back in. I was scrolling social media again. and my friend had posted a comment on Facebook. And it clicked in my head like something he was involved in this. Within probably minutes of that realization, I got a call from this woman who on the other line was like, hey, this is, I don't even remember what her name was, what her title was. but she said, hey, can you come up in, come up to this town, which is near where my friend lived,

and because there's a situation going on, I was like, well, what's happening? And she said, I can't tell you. And I was like, I know exactly what's going on, but I'm not in a place where I'm going to be able to drive. So can you have somebody come pick me up? And she said, well, we'll give you a call back in five minutes. And, you know, we'll have somebody come. But then as soon as I hung up the phone, I got a call from the Montgomery County detectives or like, we're at your house. And I said, oh, I know.

Like, well, how do you know? And it's like, I don't know, some lady called. So they ended up picking me up, driving me outside of one of the houses where the murders took place and put me on a SWAT vehicle. Come to find out later. Somebody was alive in the house. and they weren't sure if it was my friend or a victim, it ended up being a victim. But I'm sitting in this armored vehicle, which is reminding me of somewhat of a deployment overseas, and then a flashbang Rene goes off.

And I'm like, oh, this is like a war zone. So I lived through that. They dropped me off at home probably about a half hour after this incident. Then I get picked up by the police, the local police, and spent the night in the police station. but long story short, I ended up getting a call from the psychologist at the VA and the PTSD program who realized what was going on in my connection to these incidents. And she was like, you need to come back and a treatment. I said, well, I can't, because I'm on benzos. I'm going to be using benzos again because you can't take benzos in the inpatient program.

And she said, well, we're going to talk to the head of the hospital, whoever it is. So the director of the PTSD program is going to talk to whoever they needed to talk to in order to be able to get me back into treatment as soon as possible. So I actually had a bed date for like two days later. And they said, you're the only individual ever in the history of this program that we're going to wean off of benzos in this PTSD program because they were so concerned. about where I was. So during this time, I was working the program, and there was a lot of, unfortunately, some overdoses on the unit from heroin, which kind of set me into this, mentally the cycle of, you know, I don't really want to be here anymore, like in the program. So I ended up AMAing, so leaving without, against medical advice. So I left that program in

2015 after a month. Didn't tell anybody I was leaving. I just kind of packed up and left. And I got a call from them that they were looking for me. And I was like, I'm never coming back. So I know this is a very complex answer to your question. But that was like part number one, right? I felt like at the time I had burned the bridge to this program, number one, I'll never

be able to go back. And this is a program that I spent probably about a year. like a year total within like a six-year period in and out of this program. So it was a place that I felt safe at. And because I left against medical advice, I felt like, well, I'll never be able to come back here. So I have to figure this out on my own. Number two, there was another incident. So I was taking Ambien at the time to sleep.

My body got used to Ambien. I love to abuse Ambien because it would get you a little bit high. But I realized if I drank a little bit, then I would be able to fall asleep. I couldn't fall asleep on Ambien anymore. So one night, unfortunately, I drank way too much on Ambien and started hallucinating. And a good buddy of mine, Eric, who was a Marine Corps vet, an Afghanistan vet, I had texted him. He came to my house, picked me up. I think I was hallucinating during this time.

I was talking to him the next day. I was like, oh, the Taliban are out there. They're trying to get me. And he was like, oh, no, they're not out there. We cleared the area. Like, he came to my house and picked me up in the middle of the night. Took me to his house. And I just passed out in his basement.

And I woke up next morning. He's like, hey, are you okay? But it was like that incident was like number two where I was like, I can't do this anymore. If it wasn't for Eric, like I may not have been alive anymore. And that was, again, number two, where I was like, I can't keep doing this. And so I stopped the destructive behaviors and I started looking for like other ways to deal with what I was struggling with. What were those ways that you came to find out? So it was helping people.

I realized that I enjoyed helping other veterans who were struggling. And so that really became my passion during this time. So kind of backtrack a little bit. So when I was in the police station that one night after the murders occurred, one of the police officers handed me this woman's phone number named Heather. And she worked for this crisis hotline for an organization called Operation Ward 57. And this police officer was also a vet. said like just reach out to this woman. She's great people or good people, I think, is how you would say it.

And I just texted her and we spent a little bit of time on the phone just texting back and forth. And with Heather, she's somebody that like once you're into her life, like she becomes family and you become family. So after a while, after I started putting my life back in order, I started working on this crisis hotline with her. her and her organization, it was called the Honor and Courage program under this other organization, which eventually about a year or two ago we founded our own organization called the Honor and Courage Foundation, and where we still have this hotline. But during this time, that was something else that kept me going. I worked for another nonprofit during this time.

I got very active in the VFW. So I looked at the VFW as not just a place of drink. but a place where we could help other veterans. So I was able to make it through a lot of higher up into the organization, like on a state level, county level. So just being involved and active in helping people really kind of fueled my recovery in a lot of ways. That's awesome. So how did you get linked up with the dog program?

So during my time inpatient treatment, they would have these, they would have, my mind just went blank. They would have these dogs that would come up. They weren't service dogs. They were therapy dogs. And these dogs would come up, I think, every week or twice a week. And I would play with them. I was so happy.

And the psychologist that I worked with was like, you should think about getting a dog. And I was like, no, I don't want a dog. I had never had a dog before. I knew like I had lost a lot of friends to suicide, overdoses, and to combat. I was like, I don't want to get close to something else and then lose it. But eventually she talked me into it. And it was like, here's an organization called Puppies Behind Bars.

And they trained at the time. They trained. Majority of the dogs they trained went to Iraq, Afghanistan vets. very selective program. And I was like, okay, this is going to be cool. I think I could do that. I applied. I knew they were very selective.

I didn't think I was going to get selected. I ended up getting selected and went up to New York, Westchester County. And for this two weeks of training, there I think it was like eight other vets who were up there. I think they only gave about 15 dogs out a year. Now the organization trains dogs for like law enforcement as like therapy dogs, which is a really cool service. But anyway, back to the prison. So during the day, I think it was Fish Kill Prison that we were at. So we work with the inmates who raise the dogs and who train the dogs.

So during the day, Monday through Friday, we were in the prison working with those inmates. And this whole program that they put together learning how to take. take care of the dogs, learning how to, like, all the commands that the dogs were trained to do. It was just an awesome experience, and they're still around doing awesome things. That's so cool. Yeah. At the prison camp, they were dogs that were, like, adopted and sent to the camp just to

learn basic skills by the inmates that would later go on to either be police dogs or they would go on to do this type of work or anything like that, which was really interesting. It was so cool, right? And just like being able to work with the inmates, it was just hearing them, like, the passion that they had to give back, especially to vets. Like, we are a population that maybe we're overlooked sometimes, not as overlooked as other populations. But if there's not a war in the news, like people tend to forget about us, especially those who are struggling. But those vet, I mean, there's inmates, right? It's like, I can't imagine, and this is something I talked to them about, and I had gone up to speak to the prison after I had received

my dog too, was how, like, selfless, right? You don't, my understanding, you don't really have much in prison. But here is something that you get close to and attached to knowing that you're no longer going to have this dog after two years. And what that goes into that, right, is, again, being attached to something and then losing it. It was just an incredible experience. And again, the knowledge that those inmates had, and it's like some of the best individuals that I've ever met in my life. Now, you said some days you do still struggle like, you know, most individuals do. What helps you get through those days? So a lot, right? So I went back to school. Finally went back to school. It's like a six-time college dropout, not even exaggerating. I decided I want to go back to be a therapist. So 2017, I ended up going back. I would have really severe, I mean, severe panic attacks that would last for a very long time. So I had the ease for.

It was like debilitating to the extent where it's like I couldn't function. So I started school in undergrad at a university called Immaculata University, 2017, and these were going on. And the school supported me 100%. If it wasn't for one of the sisters there, it's like a small Catholic university, not too far from where I live. If it wasn't for this program, like the school and the support that I had, I would never have graduated. I would just drop out and never gone back. But during this time, just because of the support that I received there at the school, it helped me to keep pushing, right? And I was finally able to get my bachelor's degree.

But during this time, I was still having severe, severe panic attacks. I started in 2019 working on my master's degree. Panic attacks were still powerful. A lot of times I would end up in the emergency room. But my wife had found a procedure called a steli ganglion block. So it's just an injection of a local anesthetic into the neck that coats the nerves. And essentially what it does is it resets your brain. So I've had three of these procedures over the last couple of years.

The last one I think was about. two years ago, I had one panic attack since. So this is something that changed my life. It's something that the anesthetic is something that you would find at like a dentist's office. Where is out of your body within eight hours? But the lasting effects is incredible. So if it wasn't for this, it's like I don't know how I would be functioning in life right now. What piece of advice do you want to give to people that are struggling with addiction or abuse or any type of hardship in their life? What would that be? Really is if you can just make it through today, right? Focus on one day at a time. I think in life we end up getting so distracted by what's going to happen in the future, especially those who are struggling with mental health or addiction or substance abuse. where it's like, are things ever going to change?

Am I still going to be struggling with this for a month, like a month from now? And reality, it's like nobody knows, right? We can't tell the future. But as long as we're here today and we're still taking a breath, it's important to know that there's still hope that in the future, things can get better. And oftentimes they do get better. We get stuck in these thought traps of this is the way that it's always going to be because we look back through history or own history and we can easily make these conclusions because this is the way that it's been.

But again, so long as we just focus on today and have hope that tomorrow can be different, you know, that is kind of the advice that I would give people who are struggling. I love that. Well, Jonathan, thank you so much for driving up here to sit down with me today and share your story. It's very inspiring, and I think it's going to do a lot of good getting it out there and people relating to that. And I know our audience really appreciates whenever veterans do come on to the show to share their story. Thank you so much. I'm really glad and thankful that this worked out. Of course.

And like you said, the veterans are definitely a group of individuals that are often that go, you know, unnoticed just like the addicts and and ex inmates and you know that's all that category of people that have those amazing stories of you know redemption but also the struggle aspect because it's just so relatable to individuals. I agree. Well I appreciate you man and save travels back. Thank you.