Locked In with Ian Bick - Career Criminal On Attacking His Lawyer & Refusing To Show His Paperwork In Prison | Aaron Jabot

Episode Date: October 1, 2023

Aaron Jabot spent nearly 25 years of his life in and out of prison. In this episode of Locked In we hear some of Aaron's craziest prison stories including assaulting his defense attorneys, spending time in solitary, getting transported to different prisons and the rules he learned along the way. After spending six years straight in solitary confinement, Aaron Jabot rose from those ashes, writing a book about finding religion after a quarter century of crime. Connect with Aaron Jabot: https://www.blurb.com/b/11701885-from-prison-cell-to-church-pew Buy Merch: https://lockedinbrand.com Use code lockedin at checkout to get 10% off your order Connect with Ian Bick: https://www.ianbick.com 00:00 Intro / 10% off Merch 02:11 Childhood 03:13 Parent’s jobs 03:54 First time getting arrested 04:28 Gladiator School 05:40 Thinking about his trauma 07:17 Getting shown the ropes in prison 08:04 The reality of being a felon 10:08 Relationship with parents 11:30 How his parent’s divorce impacted him 12:04 Relationship with siblings  13:44 Getting out of jail for the first time 15:03 How to rob a dealer  16:30 Bar fight ends badly  19:42 Fight or flight response  20:29 Attacking his lawyers 25:30 Anger Built up from the criminal justice system  27:46 Diesel Therapy  30:05 What happens when you refuse a prison transport 32:56 Why I didn’t have to run in a gang 34:41 Craziest thing in prison 36:06 Knocking on the table in prison 37:50 Why I don’t show paperwork 39:06. Name in prison 39:30 Jailhouse snitching 40:46 What he would characterize himself as 42:10 Fighting with lawyers juiced his file up 43:30 Case manager & Counselors  44:40 Making money in prison 45:22 Throwing water on COs 46:45 Taking a shower in solitary  48:00 How much time he served in his life 49:00 Studying religion in solitary  52:08 If he could change one thing from his past 55:30 Breaking away from the felon stigma  57:56 Writing a book Produced by: https://www.instagram.com/shanedanahy https://www.shanedanahy.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Welcome back to the Lockton with the InBIC podcast. On today's episode, we have Aaron Jabbit to talk about why he attacked two of his criminal defense attorneys. What happens when you don't cooperate with prison guards? What it's like to be put through diesel therapy? And why exactly inmates knock on the table before getting up from their seats at the Chow Hall. Guys, listen up. We now have new merchant stock. Go to Ian Bick.com to check out our selection of hoodies.

t-shirts and beanies just in time for the holiday season. You guys can use code locked in at checkout to receive 10% off your order. That's code locked in at checkout. I just got back from Alaska this past weekend where I was giving a presentation on reentry at the Mattoe reentry conference. If you're interested in having me speak at your next event, please email us at contact at eanbick.com. Alaska was absolutely amazing and I had the experience of a lifetime.

Thank you again to all of our viewers and listeners that not only tune in week after week, but also tell their friends about the podcast and help get the word out there. It means the world, and I wouldn't be here without you guys. And remember, you can help support our show by hitting the subscribe button on YouTube or giving us a follow and review on whichever site you listen to this podcast. Make sure you guys sit back, relax, and enjoy my interview with Aaron Jabbit. Aaron, welcome to the show today, man. Love the outfit. You walked in here

the sunglasses on, the whole shebang, you're looking great. Thank you. I appreciate it. How are you doing today? I'm doing good. I'm doing good. How are you? I'm good. How was the ride in? You had like almost a three-hour journey. Yeah, it was a distant ride, but we got here.

In one piece? In one piece, absolutely. The weather's not terrible today. No. We thought it was supposed to rain in Connecticut, but... Yeah, Connecticut's weird weather. It was a weird summer. Very rainy summer. But then it was a very rainy summer. a weird winter. It barely snowed. It snowed once. Hopefully we don't get hammered this year.

So yeah, let's jump into it, man. Where are you from? Where did you grow up? What's kind of like that early childhood like? I'm from West Glens Falls, New York. It's upstate New York. It's a poor community, Westlands Falls. And I started, I went to Queensbury School as a kid. And I wasn't doing good in school. There was a lot of the school had rich and poor kids. And at the time, you know, I was a poor kid and we were treated a lot different. Like got made fun of for being poor? Yeah, well, yeah, but even we got singled out.

We got singled out. We always ended up in special ed or they would put us in PIN's petitioner, try to automatically get us some probation out of very early age. Really? All because of your wealth class. Yeah. Yeah, where we're from. And what did your parents do for work?

My father, he was a mechanic. He also was a bouncer at a bar called Freddy's on Elm Street in Glens Falls. At a very young age, my mother and my father got a divorce. That's when it all went downhill. My little brother passed away. He had a brain injury. Oh, I'm sorry. And so I was in the streets at an early age because my dad was working at a bar as a bouncer.

so he wasn't home at night. So my sister would watch us and we're running out the door as soon as he left. I started getting involved in drug activity at an early age. I started dealing drugs around 14, 15 years old. My first sale was when I was 16. Wow.

Then I got bailed out, stayed out for like a year or so, got into a bad car accident, shattered my femur bone. my left leg and went back to jail, stayed in jail, got sentenced to a four to 12 years in state prison. Then from there, I went to the big house. I went to prison. I started off small like adolescent jail at Green Correctional Facility, what they call it gladiator school. It's a bunch of adolescents acting nuts. And you're not the first person that's been a green that's been on the show.

Yeah. That said it was Gladiator School. It is. It's gladiator school. And back in the 90s, They mix the adults with the adolescents. So it was like you're fighting both of them because you had the adults. Some were a lot predatory people trying to, you know, take advantage of the younger kids because, you know, we didn't know better. Can you explain what Gladiator school is? Gladiator. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, I went to prison myself and I never heard that term. But then doing the podcast, everyone's talking about it. I feel like it's kind of like a state prison only type thing. It's a New York state prison. I'm sure you heard a razor tag if you talked to anybody from New York State. I did, yeah. So when you're going to the Chow Hall, if you're going to any, like, there was a cutting every day. Like every day, it was, they call it a red dot.

Red dot Nancy One dorm, Red Dot, Nancy 2 dorm, on the walkway in the mess hall. It was just nonstop cutting. So they call it gladiator school is basically the survival of the fittest, you know? who you better learn how to fight or know how to fight very quickly. Yeah. Now, what you just described, you've had so much trauma in such a young age that the average person doesn't even experience in their life. Did you ever get a second to think about how all of that trauma kind of put you on a path

and made you the person you were going to become in those later years? Not in the beginning because, you know, you're learning the ropes of the person. But in the end, I was like basically, of course. You know, the trauma did take a big impact, going through the prison system, learning the rules of the prison system, because we take a lot of that out in society with us. So when I was at Green Gladiator School, I ended up going to Kosaki because I got into a fight,

which that's a max, but that's also gladiator school, a lot of adolescents. Then I was transferred to a place called Midstate S Block. And mid-state, it's a double bunk box. So you have a celly in the box, would you? Back then, you still could smoke cigarettes, but it was horrible, especially if they linked you up with if you spoke English, the other guy didn't speak English, and you had to sit there for six months,

and you're trying to have a conversation. You don't know what each other are saying. From there, I ended up going to Clinton, Denamora, which is a super, you know, it's a Max, Max, Max. And as soon as I pulled up, there. My heart was beating fast. I was like, okay, I made it to the big house because you hear stories through the whole state. Like, you don't want to go to Clinton. You don't want to go to Adica. I've been to both of them. And when I got there, luckily, this Italian guy, Tony Roach,

he took a liking to me. And he was older. He was locked up for a while. And he showed me the ropes. He was like, listen, don't do drugs. Don't gamble. Don't get yourself a affiliated with all this stuff, and you'll be okay. So I made it through there. Went to a medium. I finally got myself down to a medium, went to work release, but ended up violating work release, because I took the behavior out into the streets with me. I told myself at that time, like, you know, I got a felon on my record. I'm a criminal now, so I might as well be the best gangster I could be. So why do you think you had that mentality? Was that like how society treated you? It's still like that. Not for me. I changed, you know, I changed my whole life around.

But society put so much more like when you reentry, I live in a rural area. So, you know, most of the people, when they hear that you've been to prison, you've been locked up, I mean, it's hard to get a job. It's hard to, you know, get any, I mean, it's hard. It's extremely hard to get a job, to get an apartment. they do background checks where I live for apartments. So if you got a felony on your record, it's even hard to get into a decent apartment. So that first time you got out of prison where you kind of had like that decision

to keep committing crime or get on the stray and arrow, do you think that was caused because of society's, like bounds, I guess you could say, of how they treat those that are reentering society? I believe the prison system, the parole system, I, you know, my opinion on it, it's more designed to set people up for failure.

It's not about rehabilitation. It took me a long time. I mean, I ended up going back to prison. I went to solitary confinement for, I did six years straight. I did more altogether, but one stretch I did six years. And that's when I started different religions and started, you know, getting the, enlightenment. I started realizing what was going on. Then I came across a story in the Bible about the thief on the cross, and he entered the kingdom with Jesus that day. So I was like, wow,

this guy's got a chance. You know, I got a chance. So that's the avenue I went, you know, spiritual, and it's been great for me because I don't shame myself no more from my past. I don't, I have remorse. I did what I did, and I'm sorry. But that's the farthest I can go with it. I can't beat myself up every day because the more we beat herself up with it, the more we're stuck in that black hole. What was your relationship with your parents as you were going through the criminal process, going through the court system and now to jail using everything like that? Were they supportive? My mother, my mother, after the divorce, I had no contact with her until later on. Like I recently just seen her. She's in a

nursing home and she has dementia. My father, he's, he's. passed away, but during the time in and out of incarceration, he was there for me. He sent me packages. He sent me money. He said, when are you going to get your life together? You got to stop doing this. And I just kept going then. In the end, he stopped talking to me. My last prison buddy, he stopped talking to me. And I was like, it hurt me bad. But when I got out, I didn't take that for granted no more. That tough love actually helped me out. I wish it didn't have to go that far, but it ended up, you know, it went that far. So we talked before he passed away.

I helped him, you know, get ready to go to the hospital appointments. I was there every day, and in our relationship, we got very close, and we made an amends. And, you know, I'm just thankful that I got the opportunity before he passed away because he was my best friend. You know, he was always supported on me. You know, even when I was doing bad, he was just like, you know, you can't. I got get your life together. You got to stop doing this. Do you think if they never got divorced, you never would have ended up in prison? Yes. I believe that divorce impacted me a lot because my mom was home more. I mean, he had to work.

My dad, he didn't want to go get social services, food, he didn't want that. So he had to get extra hours to support us. So he did it all by himself. He didn't have no one there to help him. So he had to work the overtime. He had to work the extra. showers and we were just in the streets. What was your relationship like with your siblings? Were you guys close? Or did you get closer after your brother's death? We were always close. Like, you mess with my sister, you mess with my brother.

You're messing with all of us, you know? And that's how Westlands Falls was, too. It's like, we all stuck together, you know? Like, if you mess with us, you've got a problem with the whole Westlands Falls. But, yeah, we have a, we still talk. My mother had five more children, too, after and her new marriage. I do talk to them briefly. I don't know them as well.

I do try to get to know them. I started doing a lot of the genealogy and, you know, getting to all that and find some stuff. But, yeah, I try to talk to them still. So you said the city is, like, very close. Everyone looks after each other. Was it hard on you when you got out of prison and they weren't treating you that same way anymore? It wasn't really Westland's fine. I mean, because that community, like I said, it's a poor community and they kind of know the BS.

It's like the around it, like the Glens Falls or the more of the uppity people. Because like I said, West Glens Falls, it's getting better, but the homes are still a lot of them are like, it's low income base. So it's not really that particular area. It's more where I'm at now, like if I'm in Lake Lozern or Queensberry, and certain more of a richer area. But not everybody, like I said, because I go to the church over there, Glens Falls Good Shepherd. They accepted me, and they all trimmed me very well over there. Well, there are individuals. I'm not going to say everybody, but there are individuals who will go out of their way to oppress you as a felon.

When you got out of jail that first time, what did you want to do? Like, did you have a vision? Did you have any aspirations getting out of jail that first time as a teenager? My very first prison big? Yeah, the first one. Yeah, you know, I started a long kid. business, but at the same time, I was still hustling. I was selling pot. I was like, well, it's only pot or it's only a misdemeanor, you know, but I always had criminal thinking at that time.

I always like, I got to eat, I got to make money, I got a felon, and, you know, there's certain jobs I'll never get. And in prison, you learn the codes too, you know, like, it's us and them, you know? So that first bid kind of made you a better criminal? That's all it did. Isn't that crazy when you think about it? Like that first sentence should have been the rehabilitation you needed. And instead it just gave you more time in reality.

Like it prepared you for the rest of your life to get a longer prison sentence. That's all it was just to be a career criminal. That's what I learned out of my first bit. Yeah. During this time period, were there negative news articles about you in and out of prison, things like that? Well, when I started getting in more trouble, I started robbing drug dealers. Robbing drug dealers? Yeah, I started just...

How would you rob a drug dealer? How does that go down? You just, I won't get into too much of it, but I mean, you go, it all depends on what you're doing. If you know who's there, you knock on the door, they let you in, and it's a stick up, you know? it give me all your stuff. Or some people don't know who you are and you just, you kick down the door or whatever, and you just go on and you take their stuff. And were you a big guy back then too?

I always been a decent size person. So they were probably pretty scared of you? Yeah, they knew it was a shakedown. I mean, my name was already out there enough. Like, oh my God, this guy robs every drug dealer. So, you know, like every time a drug dealer's, you know, no, we're good, we don't got nothing, you know? So you had a bad rep.

Yeah. Wow, that's wild. Absolutely. But you weren't, were you, an addict or were you just doing it solely for money? How would you characterize yourself when you were doing that? I would say in the end, yeah, I started using drugs. I started sniffing a lot of cocaine and, you know, using drugs. And I don't, I was an addict. I don't like to label myself once an addict, always an addict. I don't agree with that. I think I was doing drugs. I was just broken inside. I was a broken person and I think I had a death wish at that time.

You know, I like, I didn't care. You know, this is... Like to take away the pain maybe that you were feeling instead? Yeah, it just took away. That's what it did, exactly. So where does life take you next that you end up getting a very long prison sentence? So, uh, I was in a bar room, which I was on parole and I shouldn't have been there. You're not allowed, sorry to interrupt, you're not allowed in a bar.

Non-state prison. Federal prison is different. Really? Federal parole, I mean, New York State, they switched a lot of things. things, they became more liberal with things, but no, you're getting violated for certain things. You can't be in a bar or nothing. All right. So you're in the bar.

So I'm in the bar, and I'm with someone I thought I could trust my stepbrother. And we were talking, and I said, listen, don't do nothing stupid. I'm on parole. I don't need to go back. I don't want to get violated, et cetera. So he's in there, and he starts dealing heroin in the bar. And I was just like, you got to be kidding me. You got to be kidding me.

And I got frustrated and I confronted him. He tried a sucker punch me. So it broke out, big fight broke out. People got stabbed. I guess the bar owner got stabbed in the ear. Truthfully, I was in the back. I don't know if he cut his ear on a bottle, whatever happened. But, yeah, it got serious.

You had a knife on you? I'm going to be honest with you. At that time, I was so pumped up because, remind you, when he hit me and we started fighting, I was surrounded by people. He all of his people that he had there that was buying dope, they all took his side. So I'm getting jumped by like six or seven people. The cops found me in the parking lot. I was all hemmed up, you know, I had black eyes, everything. I mean, I did good, but I can't. They can't beat eight or ten people, you know. So they took me to jail, though. Not at that time. They dropped me off at the hospital, and I woke up that same day, and I was like, oh, I got to get out of here because, you know, I'm all black. I knew something happened.

I wasn't 100% the whole thing, but it came back to me bits and pieces. But I went to my aunt's house, and she's like, oh, my God, look at your face. Why did you leave the hospital? I said, I just got to go. Parole's going to be looking for me. So parole came there. So I knew someone said something. I knew he must, because that's where we linked up earlier that day.

So he must have said something. So my aunt's there, she got confronted by parole. And, of course, she told him, yeah, he's here. And I went with him, and I ended up going to jail. And after that happened, I was like, you can't trust nobody. Even my own brother testified against me. He signed his statements against me. And I was just mad.

I was just mad and why I was incarcerated for the bid. I was still on parole and I was facing a whole mess of time. I got into a fight with my lawyer. What did they charge you with, though, for this whole bar incident? They gave me an assault charge, but remind you, I have a couple of felonies on my record. So you're already facing some serious time? I think it's a 25 to life. Now, in those moments when you're in the bar setting and there's the adrenaline and people are drinking and everything like that,

Do you think it causes people to do things that they're going to regret? But because they're in the moment, it's kind of like a fight or flight mindset. It was a fighter flight. I didn't have a choice because I knew where it's going to go. I mean, he's soccer, punched me on fighting back. It's just even if he wasn't my role, when you get into a fight in a bar room, you're going to have people that are going to try to break it up or jump the person that they'll be fighting with their friend. You know what I mean?

Yeah. Is there any time to think in those, you know, more? No, not at all. I wasn't thinking about, I was just thinking about surviving. Yeah, survive. I was in survive mode. So you end up getting charged and I guess this is where we get to the part about the lawyer because when you Google your name, there's that you attacked your lawyer. Can you talk about that and explain that? I can talk about that. The first lawyer, because remember, it was two lawyers. You were going through them.

Yeah, I was going through him. So the first lawyer, we got into a, fight and he claims I knocked him out and etc. And I get another charge for that. Is this in the courtroom? No, this one was in the county jail. Remind you, I was so difficult to deal with in New York State. They could ship you to prison and still be in a county in me. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah. Like I was so problematic for them because I'm good with like law. I understand like had the grievance process, Article 78s, I understand the system because I've been in the system my whole life. So I was very challengeable. And I wanted my rights.

I wanted my speedy trial. I wanted all my motions filed. So they're like, this guy's got to go. So they sent me to prison. I came back to go to court, though. The sheriffs would come and get me to bring me to court. So that happened in the holding cell. So I'm on trial for this lawyer.

and me and my other lawyer started getting heated. I was like, listen, this is a strategy I want to use. And he was like, I'm not going to use that strategy. And I was like, this is my life. How are you going to? So I just got out, and I punched him in the face. This is a public defender? Yeah.

His name was Frederick Wrench. And you just got up and hit him? I just got up and punched me in the middle of the courtroom. In the middle of the courtroom. Describe the scene. What's this like when you hit your lawyer? Like, what happens? There was a sheriff there.

He's actually, he's a decent guy. His name is Hokem. And he told me before I even go in the courtroom because they already know me, he's like, listen, don't be doing nothing. Please don't do nothing. And at that time, I was an impulsive person. So, yeah, I hit him. I was surrounded within seconds of cops. And he fell down, automatically his forehead swelled up.

And he was popping crap. He was like, oh, you didn't hit me hard. You didn't hit me hard. I was like, we want to do round two, you know? The courtroom's probably going crazy. But the jury was in deliberation when I did it. Oh, this is during a trial. It's not just a regular hearing.

No, it was during trial. So the jury was in deliberation. What is a judge saying? He was just like, they were so frustrated with me. So I go in a hold and cell. I go back to the prison. And they're letting me go back by I had to be shackled. I had to be handcuffed.

in front of the jury, so I was like, I don't know now because now I'm dressed like Hannibal Lecter. They're going to find me guilty, but I said, you know what, I'm going to testify on my behalf, and now I'm going to express, you know, how I feel that I was done wrong. So they got a mistrial. They didn't convict me. So now everybody's really mad then, you know. So Fred Wren, she still wants to represent me, the guy I hit. So I was kind of nervous.

I was like, I just hit this guy, and he still wants to represent me. And he came in the back. He goes, I'm not going to quit. You can say whatever, do whatever, but I'm not going to quit. Then he used to come and see me in the prison. He would buy me, like vending machine food. Eventually, I had to like this guy. I said this guy, you know, he was showing me love.

He was like, had a lot of empathy for me. He didn't want to see me do life in prison. So he still defended you. He still defended me. I apologize to him. I seen him not that long ago. I went to the county building. I had to drop off papers for something.

And I said, Fred, you know, I'm sorry for what happened. But I appreciate it because that was a part that also changed my life. Because I never really had, like, nobody that worked for law enforcement, nobody that worked as an attorney. Nobody ever showed me that much empathy. It was always like, I want to charge you, and I'm going to put you in jail. I want you in prison. He's like, I'm not going to charge you.

And that's when I was shot. Because if he would have charged me, it would have been over for me. I wouldn't be on your show talking to you right now. Did he know about the first assault? Yeah, that's what he was representing me during trial. Oh, man. So was he nervous at all, like dealing with you? He wasn't, he wasn't.

You know, this guy, I call him the legal gangster, you know? Like, he was a legal gangster. He was a legal gangster. He was just like, he would just go back and forth with me. And he was like, you're going to break me or I'm going to break you. and, you know, it just worked out. And he got me the prison time to run concurrent with the bar fight. Because he knew the bar fight was VS, but I had such a record.

And in my area, that's how they go. If you got a record, you're the ones going to jail. They don't care about these other people that are the ones who instigated, but they're looking for the bigger fish. Isn't it interesting to think about that you had all this anger built up in you from the system? Yeah. And the very person like you were angry. about ended up being the person that was there for you and helped you kind of get through that and work through that.

Absolutely. And that's when I started looking at things in a whole different way. You just needed someone to show that they cared. That was on the other side of the fence. That's all it was. Now, you know what's also interesting is that the news never really republished an article to say that you guys hash things out. Not at all. They make it look so bad. Like if you do a Google search on you, it just man attacks not one but two of his prison lawyers. Absolutely. I look like Hannibal Lecter. Yeah, I mean, that's just, I think that's unfair. A lot of people coming out of the system like myself, there's no re-updated articles saying what the person's doing now.

Absolutely. You have to kind of create your own story, which is why a platform like this is great because you get to go and share your side of the story. I don't think the news was ever calling you up to. They never called me up. They never gave me no opportunity. And he even told them, you know, it's a small cut. He was advocating. He says, I'm still going to represent them.

But they still made it look like, why would he represent him? represent him. Yeah. He, I believe Fred, Frederick Grinch, I believe he knew in his heart. Like, this kid is a broken kid. He's not a bad kid. I'm not a pedophile. I wasn't murdering people.

I was robbing drug dealers. You know, I wasn't, I never robbed no innocent person on the corner. I never, I never robbed nobody that was innocent. They always had their own, you know, doing their own criminal stuff. Yeah. I mean, you see all the time of like the murderers and the really dangerous people that are assaulting their lawyers, which makes it on the news all the time. Yeah. I think that's what they were putting you in the same league as.

Oh, absolutely, because remind you, legally, I'm a pain. So the DA don't know. And that's why they got so upset with me because I've been through trials. You know, I'd get a misdramuner here, go to trial, get a felony, go to trial. And I don't know what it is. I just started grasping the law, and I understand the Constitution. very well. And that's what it really bothered them. It's retaliation. Even, I don't know how the feds are, but if you file a grievance or you start challenging, they do the retaliation game.

You guys got diesel therapy, right? Yeah, they send me through diesel therapy. We have a bus, though. We have a bus. It's called I Love New York Tour. What's the I Love New York Tour? I love New York Tour. You'll go to every single prison in New York State, just about. If you're a max, you'll go to Attica, all. burn. Then you got to stay overnight. Then they'll pack, oh, you got to move again. Or they'll throw you in a box. Find a way. They'll put a shank under your pillow, you're whatever, and they'll come in. They'll send you the box. What are those prison bus rides like? They're horrible. They're horrible. Matter of fact, I was just talking to a friend that brought me here.

We were going on the throughway, and we stopped and got a burger, and they had a New York State prison bus there. And he was asking me about it. And I was like, okay, I'm going to tell you what it is. You got the COs, you got the bus driver, they're all up front. Then you got all the inmates in the back. And it's like plexiglass with metal around it. You're shackled with somebody. Even if you have to get up and use the bathroom in the back of the bus, the bus is moving. So you're moving. You have no balance because you've got a waist chain and you got handcuffs on. So you've got to try to go to the bathroom with a guy on your leg, you know, shackled to your leg. It's horrible. And you'll stay there for hours. Let's say if a trip is five hours long, you won't get. You won't

get there for like 15 hours, 10 hours. It takes forever. Were they feeding you? Do you get like a bag lunch? They'll go inside and get a nice meal and that. They'll give you a bag lunch. Two bologna sandwiches. Oh, two?

Okay. Yeah, but you only get one piece of bologna, one piece of cheese on each piece of bread. Then you get a quarter water. And I don't know if you know what a quarter water is. The little water bottles? Yeah. No, they're little juice bottles. You know what I'm saying?

Like the huggies juice bottles? Yeah. They call them the quarter waters like. in the city because they used to sell them for a quarter. So, yeah, you get a little fruit box, whatever, juice box. Sorry about that, not fruit box, but juice box. Oh, man. Did you ever try using the bathroom on one of the buses?

Yeah, I didn't have a choice. You know, if you're on the bus for hours, yeah, I had, you know, go to the bathroom and drag somebody with me. But that was another, I stopped using the bus. That was during the time when I was, uh, Like I said, I was broken. So I used to protest all the time. I'm refusing.

I'm not taking no more bus rides. They used to come in with a team called the cert team. They'd be all dressed in black. They'd have helmets on. They would gas me out, pepper spray me, and throw me on a van with a videotape and drive me all the way there. Because I got tired of being shackled to somebody. Wait, describe a moment when you get a, like, barged in with the cert team. Because we've seen it all in movies.

So what's it like in real life? It's horrible. It's horrible. You feel every bit of it. Walk us through like the whole thing from the moment the cop comes to your door and you say, I'm not cuffing up, I'm not going. So he, the cop will go up and he'll say, jabbit, you're on the draft. It's time for you to go. And I'm not going. I'm refusing. He's like, you're going to go. I said, I'm not going to go. And they'll have a sergeant come over. So the sergeant will talk to me. It's a process. You got to see a sergeant. Lieutenant and you'll see someone from the chapel office.

When you see someone from the chapel's office, you know it's over. They're coming in. So the sergeant will come over, try to convince you, and I'll say, no, I'm not getting on the bus, and not being shackled with people. Then you'll have the lieutenant come over. Then when clergy comes over or the Reverend or whoever's working that day, I'm not going. He'll be like, sure you want to go through with this? I'm ready, you know? But inside your heart's because it hurts, you know, because it hurts.

you know, because they come in with shields, they spray you. So, those they'll give you a last call, and you're not going to go, and they'll be coming in. They're already sneaking up. They're already dressed. As soon as that chaplain's coming to see you, they're already getting dressed. They're all going back. They're going to the fitting room, wherever they go. They get dressed up, and they come.

Nope, you're not going. Crack 19 cell, whatever cell they say, and they just rush right in. They just rush right in. What are you doing when they're rushing in? You could fight for a couple seconds, man, but you ain't fighting like they got shit. You're going to get hurt. You get hurt bad. And they're pepper spraying you too?

Sometimes they won't use the spray and sometimes they'll just throw the gas in there. And they'll come and get you. But sometimes they'll just rush in and get you. Because they don't want to smell the gas. Because a lot of them have been pepper spray before. I think they all have to be if they go through the academy or whatever, however it goes. And then they're just dragging it out in cuffs. Yeah, they're dragging you out and cut up, but you get a van ride.

You don't have to worry about that bus, and you get straight to where you got to go. But they tell the people when they drop you off at the prison, oh, he's an asshole. You know, he refused the whole situation, which I already know because they called each other. They briefed each other during the process. Yeah, as a white guy and, you know, or what, 30s at the time? Probably. So as a white guy in your 30s, did you have to run with a gang or who did you have to associate with to make it through your prison sentence? But like I said, in the beginning, I was raised by, in prison I call it raised, I was raised by Tony Roach, and he showed me the ends and outs.

But I did, you know, I did hang out with, if you're hanging out with the white guys, you're hanging out with them. But New York is kind of different. New York, they do have people like, you have the Dominican guys, you have the Puerto Rican guys, but pretty much everybody talks to each other. You do have a couple like Aryanation guys or whatever, but for the most part, no, I'm neutral. I'm a neutral guy. No gang activity. And I hung out with some of the bikers that were there. Some of the Italian guys were there.

But, no, I just, I didn't do the gang thing. Yeah, so a big question that comes up with our audience is if you have to join a gang to survive. I'm not joining no gang. And I know how to fight. You could stay neutral. I can stay neutral. I mean, I've done it. You know, I've done it through my whole bed.

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So it's all about how you assert yourself. Yeah, if you show that you can fight back, a lot of people, they, prison is just who's out conning the con. That's what I look at it. The con's trying to outcom the con. You'll get guys that don't know how to fight or whatever. They get friendly as storted or they get extorted. I'm not having that. I'm not doing that.

We're going to fight right then and there. If it's in the mess hall, wherever it is. And if I lose, I lose. But every day you're going to have to fight me because I ain't giving you nothing. Wow. What do you think was the craziest thing you saw during your whole prison sentence? I saw so much stuff. I mean, I've seen people get stabbed.

I've been in the yard where the COs where they got to shoot the guns off. The rubber balls? Yeah. Sometimes I've heard they had real bolts, but they're loud. They'll shoot them off or you can get hit with beanbags, but if they have a riot in the yard, I've been in the yard where there would be like 30-man riots on each other.

You'd have a lot of Latin kings, a lot of blood. It looked like a Braveheart video. Like Clinton, you have like, I'll be up on top of the hill. Then you have the flats it's called where the regular yard is. And they'll like just run right after each other. Then you'll hear the guns, boom, everybody on the ground, everybody on the ground. And you've got to lay there. And if it's wintertime, you can lay there like two hours.

You're freezing. Really? Yeah, you're freezing. One by one you're coming in. What causes these riots? Stupidity. A lot of it's stupidity. People want power control. Drugs is a big factor, you know. Or if people owe drug bills or people want to run, the phones are horrible. People fight over the phones all the time. You'll have like a blood phone. You'll have a Dominican phone. And you just walk on somebody's phone and just pick it up.

up, that's going to be a problem. They're going to say, what are you doing using that phone? Now, on that topic of rules, what are some rules in prison you learn that aren't normal rules in the free world outside of prison? Well, a lot. I remember when I first got, I don't know if you guys did this in the feds, but you guys ever knock on the table to excuse yourself? Yeah, did you guys do that?

Yeah, we knocked at the table. And I remember one time I was out to dinner and I knocked on my dad's like, what are you doing, knocking on the table. I was like, I'm sorry about that. I was just thinking I was somewhere else for a minute. But you pick up stupid things like that, knocking on the table to excuse yourself. Can you explain how you learned about knocking on your table and what it signified? I've learned knocking on the table at Clinton. Because of Clinton, you can turn around in your seat. And let's say if you're at one table and the other person's at the other table and you're behind me, let's say you're behind me. I can say, excuse my back and I'll knock on the table. And me and you won't have a conversation. It's just a sign of respect.

You're respect to him that you're leaving. You give him a knock, and he'll be like, it's a sign of respect. Excuse me. Excuse me back. Is there repercussions if you don't knock on the table? These days, it's different in prison. When I just left, it was just, it wasn't the same as like the early 90s or the 90s. There is a lot of drama, but people are losing the respect part that is in prison.

It's like a dog-eat-dog world in prison now. It's like the bloods are against the bloods. You know, there'll be one set of bloods, and you're like, well, I thought they were all together, you know? Like, why are they trying to kill each other? And that's how it is. And it's like the paperwork, you know, you got to bring your paperwork out. Me, I don't bring no paper out with me. Because to me, that don't prove nothing, which people who know me already know what I'm in jail for.

But if you come up to me, say, I want to see your paperwork. I'm like, I'm going to think you're a Fed because that's how jail is becoming. Like, the Feds could give you fake paperwork. The DAs could give somebody a fake. You don't know who this guy is. Your best bet is Google on them or looking them up on the computer? You call home and say, hey, can you check this guy out for me? It's interesting to hear this perspective.

So if someone asks for your paperwork, you're saying fuck off, basically? Yeah, because I'm thinking, why do you want information about me? And what happens when you say no? Are they trying to make a move on you? No. Like I said, all the, because let's say if the white guys come to me and they want me to hang out with them. And they're like, hey, you got your paperwork? I'm like, I didn't even talk to you.

Why do I need my paper? Like, I don't even know you. Then they'll go tell, like, you know, one of their people they're speaking to or the head, they're like, oh, leave that guy alone. He's going to fight with you. You keep asking them questions. It's about where you're going to respect boundaries. I'm not going to be the guy who's full. I don't care if you.

If you lose your good time of your merit, I'm the guy because I'm going to fight right then and there. What were they calling you? Did they give you a name, like the guards and the inmates, maybe two separate names, or did they have something? Because you got quite a prison rep, it sounds like. Well, I always went by Aaron, too. I was always my first name.

You know, some people might have said AJ because of my, you know, first name and my last name. But it was always Aaron. and, you know, there is people who, that's what they do. They want to know information about you. It's sad but true. They'll get information. They'll be dropping slips.

They'll be right into the DA. He told me about his case. You see it all the time. You see all these inmates going to court on other inmates to testify, you, I told him about this case. Now he's indicted on another case. Yeah. Talk about jailhouse, snitch.

Does that happen a lot? It's huge. What's like one of the craziest jailhouse snitch stories you've encountered? I've seen a guy with a one to three almost go home and getting indicted on a murder charge. Really? Yeah, he was like, I'm going out the door and everybody's happy. Congratulations, good. And the guy who he thought was his homeboy, he talked to every day, ate with him, cooked meals with him.

And they came and picked him up, and he came all the way back through the system. And he ended up with 25 to life. I see them later on in a max prison. I was like, a lot of old-timers, I ain't trying to hear you with that paperwork because they know a lot of it is just you're looking for information and it don't prove nothing because you could have did some real sleaze bag stuff in a whole different state. If you only got New York paperwork, I'm not going to know what you did in Chicago.

Yeah. So what would you characterize yourself during this period as? Are you like are other inmates referring to you as like a career criminal or is there like some type of like prison gangster? Like what classifies you during this time period? Like what's the terminology that someone would use to describe you? Someone that's like been around the block for a while. Yeah, they would say he's an old-timer, which I don't feel.

I had younger kids like coming at like 19. They'll be going through down. What's up, old G? I'm like, I'm not old man. What do you talk about old G? So O-G-O-T, they call people old-timer. Prison OG. maybe.

Yeah, you know. But yeah. That's good. That's a good name. Once people, it's about boundaries in prison. If you let people, you're not going to take advantage of me. And they're like, okay, even if we beat him up, he's still going to come out the next day. Because New York, it's like, if you're not going to tell him who beat you up, you're going to just go back to your block and that's it.

So the next day you got to see me again. Besides if someone cut you or stab you, then you're going to go to IPC. Wow. You won't have a choice. Do you think half of this rep developed from attacking your lawyer? Like, do you think people would have looked at you differently if you never did that? Uh, I think the attacking the lawyer and fighting with the lawyer, the, you know, Frederick Wrench fighting with him, I think that was the dumbest thing I did in my life. You hear me the dumbest thing.

but I'm just blessed that he was so understanding because, yeah, they juice my file up. It juiced it up. It made it like people are like, wow, this guy, he's knocking lawyers out in court. He ain't going to care about fighting with me in the mess hall, you know? Yeah. So, yeah, it did juice it up quite a bit. If you want to know how to survive prison, just hit your lawyer. Yeah.

And when they see you get distracted too, they're like, this guy's really going to get gassed out. He ain't taking the bus. So, I mean, nobody, not too many inmates get distracted on a daily basis. Yeah. I mean, you've been locked out. You might see it once in a while. I'm, like, arguing all the time with the COs. Like, I got to the point where they stopped writing me tickets.

What about case managers and counselors? Did you give them a hard time, too? I didn't just go giving somebody a hard time. I'd like to. I was just, like you said, when someone showed that they care. Like, you get frustrated with the system. How am I going to help myself? How am I going to get this program?

And it just feels like your complaints fall on death years. That's when I become like, fuck you. Yeah, that's why I'm curious about those staff members, because in my experience, they were the most unhelpful people ever. The case managers, the counselors, I was just another piece of paper to them. That's all. We called another did number. Another didn't number? Yeah.

I apologize for swearing. No, no. You're good, man. No, I try to do my best not to swear. But, yeah. you're just a dead number. But that's when after I got into a fight with him, I realized

it. I realized some people do care. But you got to understand. Prison is not just tough for inmates. It's tough for the officers, too. Because if an officer likes you, right, and they're looking out for you as not no corrupt or nothing like that, they just say,

you know, he's a good guy or he don't give us a hard time. And people see you get friendly with them. One, they could think you're dropping slips, you're a snitch. Then you get the haters that, you know, could write to IG and say, I think they're giving them drugs or whatever. So they will get a tag on them, too, as an inmate lover. And they have their own, the COs, they have their own little groups. You know, once you become blackballed with a group of COs, it's over for you. Yeah, I bet. For the other CO. Now, you didn't really

come from money. So what did you do to make money in prison? Did you have, like, a prison job or a hustle or anything like that. No, they never would give me a job after, you know, fighting a lawyer and stuff. They're like, keep him away from certain. I'm going to get in the, if I signed up for like the metal shop, they're like, you ain't coming in here. But pretty much I, when I just barely got by, man, after my dad, when he stopped talking to me, I barely got by. I lived off what the state gave me a couple cents, and I was able to, you know, get a stamp here and there. And then when I went to solitary confinement for the long period of time. You don't get nothing.

You get a bar of soap. You get a toothbrush. You really don't need much. Why'd they send you to solitary? Just getting distracted, throwing water on COs. You threw water on a C.O. How would you throw a water on a CIO? They walked by, you know, throw it.

Because he would burn me on chow. Let's say if you burn me on chow. And I'm like, okay, okay, I'm not going to eat today. Okay. So he would walk back. He might be smiling. So I'd throw the water on him. What are you going to smile about?

And if you throw water on them, it's not really, it's not a criminal charge because it's water. You got to throw something, which I would never do nothing like that. It would have to be like urine or feces. And I would never lower myself to, you know, throw something like that. But I know that I'm leaving right then and there once you throw water on them. Wow. And do they get pissed right at you? Like, do they start attacking you?

No, because they got way until you come out of your cell. And they call blind spots. And I started learning about the blind spots. And, you know, another, you know, with New York State President, they would go by. And I stopped fighting inside because I kept jumping me in the blind spots. And I said, okay, okay, we're going to have to go to a medical trip. We're going to have to go to a hospital trip. And I'm going to get you.

And that's when I'd pull, you know, pull my BS because what are you going to do? You're not going to kill me in front of all these people if I'm at the hospital. I refuse to go back to the prison, you know, so... Can you talk about how you take a shower in solitary, how that works? It all depends on what solitary you are in New York. If you're an S block, it's in your cell. So what about the ones that when they're not in your cell? Like Southport, that's horrible.

They handcuff you from the back. They walk you out. They bring you to the shower. And you get a five-minute shower. That means you got to shave everything in five minutes. If you don't, sorry about your luck. You'll see guys come out with like half a haircut. They're bleeding all over their face because they're like hurry up shaving.

They're bleeding all over. And yeah, that's a quick five-minute shower. And you get three a week in Southport used to be twice a week. Two showers a week. Yeah. And you're like shitting and stuff in front of your cellmate when you have a cellmate. In the beginning, like I said, the S-blocks, but they wouldn't, I don't go, they don't double bunk me no more. I became CMC.

What does that mean? Central monitoring case. Like with all my stuff, it has to be reported to Albany. If I go on a trip, they got to be notified. Basically, it's a label as you're a pain in the ass. I think that accurately describes your prison sentence. Yeah, that's what you're a pain in the ass. So you got, what, 8 to 12, you said?

I got a 4 to 12 my first bid. And your second bid for this? My second bid was a three flat with five. five years post. And so how much time do you end up serving? I got out after three years, but I would get violated quick. Then I got the six flat with the other sentencing rank occurred, but I still owed him 18 months for the parole violation. How much time do you think you spent in jail out of your whole life so far? In and out, 25 years. And how old are you right now? I'm 43. How does that make you feel that you've spent more than 50% of your life inside jail?

horrible, horrible. But I'm a spiritual person. I believe in God and I believe things happen for a reason. And I'm blessed that I'm alive and I'm, you know, have the opportunities that I have. And I don't dwell too much on my past because that's what would get me in trouble. That'll make you depressed if you sit down and think about, you know, I've been in jail my whole life. And I try not to, I try not to, I live in the now. I try not to think about that stuff. How did you develop that mentality? Well, I was in solitary confinement. I was studying different religions.

And I came across the Luther in faith. And I was reading about a guy named Martin Luther. He was a Catholic monk. He was a German from Germany. And I started reading about him. And he started protesting against the Catholics. And I said, I already liked this guy. He's already protesting because they had the cat.

They wanted to kill them. the whole church because the way he was talking about like purgatory back then they were charging people money to I'm trying to make it simplify for you like as a to get out of purgatory you give me this much money and we'll say prayers to get your family out of purgatory he was like this is not right and yeah he started protesting that's where the Protestant came in and it was 1517 and I said, this guy's a rock star, and I started studying more of the religion. And I wrote to the pastor and the reverend there, come to find out he was Lutheran,

and he says, I give you an address when you get out. And it was in Glens Falls. It was called the Good Shepherd. And I've been there ever since 2019. I go to church just about every Sunday. They're awesome people. and I don't feel no judgment. You know, there are some Christian groups that they'll still be biased and prejudiced and towards, you know, felons or, you know.

Do you think if you found that book 20 years earlier, it would have changed you and become the man you are today, or do you think it wouldn't have had enough fact because of your mindset at the time? It wouldn't. I wouldn't even have read that book that many years ago. So you needed to go through what you went through? Absolutely. I hit my rock bottom. I lost my...

Like, I didn't talk to my father. I didn't talk to nobody. I burnt a lot of my bridges because of my behavior. I had to hit rock bottom. But after, like I said, picking up that book and studying Lutherism, I started getting more. And the thief on the cross, I don't know if I was mentioned this story. I think I said in the beginning.

Yeah. So that was my hope. That was like, God forgave the thief. on the crowd. The gangster was with God the first day. It wasn't, you know, one of the chosen ones or the, it was a gangster who went to, went to heaven that day with God. So that gave me so much inspiration. It gave me, it gave me, all right, I got a chance, you know, God, God forgives us. You know, society, they shame us and put us in categories and, you know, they put us in their own little boxes, but, and that's what helped me look at life in a whole different way.

Looking back on everything, if you can change one thing from the past, what would you change? Stay in school and never get arrested. You think if you stayed in school, that would have been the defining point? If so, because I told you, the school was complex because I, in a different area. But if I had my mother or someone who, if shoes stuck with my dad or encouraged me to stay in school, education, I believe, is very important. Education is very important, and it does pave the road to success. You know, a successful life.

I'm not saying you have to be highly educated, but education is very important. Absolutely. What did you end up getting into work? Right now, I open my own business. I do a cleaning business. I enjoy it. I always been a guy who likes to work for himself. I don't really, because that's another thing, too, right?

Let's say if I'm working at Market 32 or Hanford, I don't know what you guys got here for grocery stores. But you'll get a job. Yeah, you can mop and sweep the floor. But when it comes to manager positions, they look at your record. Statistically, you're not going to get the job. You know, face reality, you're not going to get to manage your position. It's very rare. So why am I going to sit there and waste my time working for somebody?

That, one, I'm out working half the people that are working there. I'm doing an outstanding job. And I'm not going to go nowhere. I'd rather work for myself and be happy and have my own hours and do what I want to do. But do you think that mindset, that way of thinking isn't necessarily a good example for others in that same situation? Like, I feel like people should at least try. I know when I got out of prison, I felt that same way, but I still went to a grocery store and I was able to work my way up. Absolutely. I do agree with you 100%. You need to have some kind of income. You need to go to, you know, you need to go to. work. I was saying for myself, that took a while for me to get there. I just didn't open my business. Even if you want to do your own business, you got to start somewhere to save money. You got to,

you got to, as I use the term, bite the bullet, right? You got to bite the bullet to get where you're at. And then when it's your time for your success, that's your time. What did it take for you to put those feelings of discouragement aside? Did you go to therapy? Did someone help you? Or was it just your spiritual beliefs that got? you alone. No, I have a big support system. I do. I have a therapist. I was, you know, talking to all the time because I do have PTSD from the long history of solitary confinement. And when I'd get frustrated and express myself, hey, I can't get this job, I can't get that job. You know, like, hey, just, it'll all come together. And it will eventually. And if you face a problem

like that, my opinion sometimes, you just got to learn how to have thick skin and walk away and just think of a way to better your situation. It's all about thinking. Think about what you're thinking about. I didn't mean it in like a negative way as when I was saying I want to work for myself. You still got to sometimes work for people. You don't want to work for. You got to do what you got to do. I just feel like there's a lot of people out there that are definitely feeling discouraged. You know, I get a lot of messages. They're like, how do I find success? How do I break away from the stigma that felons can't be successful?

And I think people will enjoy hearing a success story like you're someone that society, probably, if they read your rap sheet, would think that you're supposed to fail. And you were able to find success in that. Most of the people still can't believe it. My brother, my sister, who's like, when I have a conversation, they're like, what happened to you? Like, some people say, what are they clone you? I was like, no, this is me because I changed my life so much. How hard is it to date and have relationships? I'm married.

Your marriage. Was that hard to get into a marriage? It is, but I told my wife before I got married, she knew I was a felon. I come right out and tell her. Because I don't have time to waste. I'm not going to sit there and go. I have a felony. I have a hard time getting a job.

We don't even have the best place where we're living now, but we're making ends me. And like I said, I got my own bill. And I'm doing okay. So I feel more, you know, I feel more upset because she's going through it. She's never been convicted of a felon. She's never a felony. Sorry about that. She's never been convicted of a felony.

She's never been in trouble a day or life. She's never even been arrested. But she has to be denied housing because of me. Because of me. And I told her, you know, I was like, this is, you sure you want to go through this. and she's been by my side every since. What about her family, her side of the family? I know her whole family.

So they're okay, they're accepting. Yeah, they're great. I knew her brother. Me and her brother were best friends before, you know, of me, knowing her. And I think that's great to see individuals like herself, her family, looking past that curtain to get to know the real you. Yeah.

I mean, just think about how different the world would be if that was the case for every year. It would be a lot of... Because there's some people that won't even have a conversation with someone if they have a criminal record and they're labeling that. Absolutely. As soon as you mentioned when I first got out and you know, you do the texting, like the dating thing, whatever. Like Tinder and stuff? Yeah, I'm not like... I didn't know. Because I don't know nothing about technology that much either. So I'd be...

Because I'm always honest. Yeah, I've been to jail. They just stopped texting you. They're like, they want to say nothing back to you. I was like, okay, she doesn't like people have been in jail. and I've always been up front about it. That's great. Now, aside from your business, you ended up writing a book, too. I did write a book. Can you tell us about the book and what it meant to you, why you wrote it? I wrote the book to tell my story, to inspire others that, like I said, I've been at the bottom.

I've been at the rock bottom, and anybody can change. Anybody can change, and I just want to share my story and how God changed my life. I dedicated the book to God. My editor is here. He gave me a ride down here, and he helped me with a book. And he's been in my corner the whole time, and that's another story where, you know, this guy was a superintendent of a school. He was a principal. He's never been arrested in his life.

He's a pillar to the community. And he took his time out after he heard my story, he's like, I'm going to edit your book. and he's been with me the whole time. So that's another where I could prove there are people out there that will give you the opportunity. Yeah, sometimes individuals that find themselves in situations like yours or like mine, we just need someone to believe in us. That's a- Take us that next step, elevate us, see us for who we truly are, and see how we can be a better person.

And I mean, life's all about surrounding yourself with people that will make you better. and, you know, make you feel wholesome and loved, and anyone that doesn't fit in that mold, why are they in your lives? And that's something I've been focusing on lately. Yeah. You know, just making sure I'm keeping around good company, small circle, and just focusing on enjoying life

because it's too short. So many people are dying at such a young age or living short lives. It's sad. It's crazy. Especially with the, you know, even I live in a small area, but they have a fentanyl crisis. These young people are dying.

And it's sad to see that. They're not even out of their teens and they're overdosing. You know, it's not like back in a day you smoke a joint and it was safe. I mean, people are lacing even weed with fentanyl. So it's just tragedy to see so many people at a young age die. Now, if we could put you in a room with maybe 20 individuals who just got out of prison, what's your one or two sentence liner to them to prevent them from going back to prison and giving them hope that their past doesn't define their future.

Be very optimistic. Think positive. And don't give up. And there are people out there. Like how we don't want people to put us in a box, don't put people that in society in a box, like where people say that's them and that's us. I'm sure you heard that term when you're in prison.

That's them. That's us. and we have to not take that behavior out here because there are people that will open them doors for you. And there are people that will help you. Well said. Aaron, thank you for coming on the show today. Thanks for traveling out here, reaching out.

For those that are listening, we're going to put your description, where to buy the book, any social media in the description of the bio. Definitely would recommend all of our viewers and listeners to get a copy of that book. Thank you for bringing me a copy. Absolutely. Thank you for having me.

Yeah, definitely. And then, you know, anyone that's listening to the show, watching the show, if they want to come on the show and share their story like Aaron did and like the countless others, they could go to eInbick.com and fill out that request for him. I think you filled out the request for him, right? I did. I think it was your Facebook, and there's a link for email or website, and you go to the website, and you fill out the questionnaire, and you got back to me within a couple weeks. I didn't even, at first I didn't believe it was you. I thought I was a scam. I thought it was a scam. I was like, call me, you know, and I had to call you again. And he sent me the picture with a thumbs up. It's me.

I was like, okay, it's him. Well, you know what I think half the problem is too, is people think that someone like myself that might have a platform isn't reaching out and doing that work on their own. Yeah. Like, it's me. I'm the one doing that. I'm interactive. I'm doing the logistics, the planning, the scheduling.

Absolutely. And I think that is what makes it. it more comfortable? Like if I had an assistant reaching out to you to set it up, I don't think it would be as comfortable as if you got to deal with me directly. And you'd be more skeptical too. Because there's so much with the, like I said, I didn't know

nothing about the internet, but you have people that clone people's accounts now. I get friend requests. I said, I'm friends with this guy. So I'll say, yo, is this you? He's like, that's not me. So I'm like, you never know. I was like, maybe someone's seen my following because I think I fall. Yeah, I do. I follow you

on Facebook. And they could say, oh, he falls Ian Bick. Yeah. And they could clone your account, whatever, and say, hey, this is Ian Bick. Did hearing other people's stories give you the courage to reach out to share your story? Absolutely. There's a lot of pressure to do something like this. I was nervous.

I'm still a little nervous. That's why some of my words, like I'm hiccuping a little bit. No, you're doing great, man. I appreciate that. But no, I was nervous. I was nervous. Even, you know, you've been where you've been and I've been where I've been. A lot of people are going to hear this.

I was, you know, I haven't, I told my story in a book, but I haven't been on no podcasts to tell my story, not with a lot of views. I tried to set up a podcast with technology. I can't bigger. I'm no good with it. I mean, I'm almost 70 episodes, and I still get nervous sometimes speaking in front of a crowd. And depending on the setting, you know, it's just a part of life. You know, sometimes that's just how we are. Absolutely. Aaron, again, thank you, man. We're looking forward to having this episode come out. Thank you so much for coming on the show. And I look forward to reading the book.