Locked In with Ian Bick - College Brawl Ends in Murder Trial, Manslaughter Conviction & 17 Years in Maximum Security Prison | Justin Peck

Episode Date: October 13, 2024

Justin Peck's life took a shocking turn after a college brawl spiraled out of control, leading to a murder trial, a manslaughter conviction, and a 17-year sentence in maximum security prison. In this episode, Justin shares his story from the night of the fight to the courtroom and beyond, reflecting on the impact it had on his life and how he navigated the realities of a long prison sentence. #CollegeBrawl #MurderTrial #ManslaughterConviction #PrisonSentence #MaximumSecurityPrison #TrueCrimeStory #LifeBehindBars #criminaljustice Hosted, Executive Produced & Edited By Ian Bick: https://www.instagram.com/ian_bick/?hl=en https://ianbick.com/ Presented by Tyson 2.0 & Wooooo Energy: https://tyson20.com/ https://woooooenergy.com/ Buy Merch: https://lockedinbrand.com Use code lockedin at checkout to get 20% off your order Timestamps: 00:00:00 Justin's Background and Family Life 00:06:30 Personal Growth and Reflection in Prison 00:11:08 Encounters in Prison 00:16:14 Struggles with Anger and Self-Respect 00:21:37 Unexpected Fight 00:27:33 Impact of High-Paid Attorneys on Criminal Cases 00:33:18 Self-Defense and Legal Challenges 00:39:14 The Reality of Serving Time in Maximum Security Prison 00:44:47 Brewing Tensions: Prison Dynamics 00:50:19 Encounter in prison 00:55:27 Surviving a Knife Attack in Prison 01:04:06 Reflections on 17 Years in Prison 01:06:30 Consequences and Unchangeable Actions 01:12:15 Struggles with Redemption and Family 01:18:02 Reaching a Low Point and Desperate Plans 01:24:45 From Atheism to a Spiritual Path 01:30:06 Embracing Challenges and Finding Therapy in Expression Powered by: Just Media House : https://www.justmediahouse.com/ Creative direction, design, assets, support by FWRD: https://www.fwrd.co Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Justin, welcome to Lockton, man. Pleasure having you from Massachusetts. You drove all the way over to us. Yeah, thank you. Good to be here, I think. We'll see how this goes. And this is your very first podcast. Very first podcast, yeah.

That's so awesome. Not big on social media or podcasts or anything, so. Yeah. But I saw you. I saw your story and resonated. I appreciate that a lot, man. Yeah. I'm glad, like, we could create this, like,

comfortable space for people to, you know, want to share their stories. Yeah, I mean, it should be, like, therapeutic, you know, maybe getting some of the stuff out. And I think, like, there's, you know, a decent message in terms of some of the stuff that happened. Absolutely. Did you grow up in Massachusetts? Yeah, I grew up in a town called Ashland.

It's like a small, like, you know, middle class suburb, Boston, I guess, on the outskirts of Boston. With your mom, dad, siblings, or just you? Yeah. mother, father, younger brother. Parents got divorced when I was fairly young, like eight, nine, ten years old, something like that. But yeah, younger brother, really tight, like good grandparents were really instrumental. My life, you know, so.

What do your parents do for work? My mother, she's done a few different jobs. At the time, she was working for admissions at, like, college. In fact, I did my first business. I got out and two weeks later she had me going to school for free, $20,000 year school, which back then, like, that was, you know, I'm old as shit. But back then, like, that was a decent amount of money, but I was going for free. Two weeks after getting out of county jail, and I got kicked out after three months.

So decided I wanted to continue with my criminal education instead of fucking business management. Were you and your parents close? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, they're both supportive parents are good to me. What are some like morals and values that kind of instilled in you as a kid from what you can remember? Yeah. You know, just like I got a lot of that, I think, from my grandparents. Like my mother, like she worked a lot.

And my father, when we got divorced, like we weren't with him a lot. You know, they were just like just the fact that they were always there for me. you know so I guess probably loyalty like that gets instilled in you from just seeing stuff like that but my grandparents like they were really um like I think like all the good inside me like I've fucked up a lot in my life but uh you know I feel like it's been a battle sometimes like between my head and my heart you know what I mean I got a good heart but my head's fucked up uh but my grandparents the fact that they were always it didn't matter like when I started getting in trouble started Like, they were just, they were always there for me.

So, yeah, a lot of, uh, my character is incredibly important to me. And I think I got that mainly from them, but my parents do, you know, like that. How much do you think that the divorce altered your childhood? Um, they, my parents fought a lot. Like, my brother's probably too young to remember. Like, I remember, like, they just, they weren't happy together. So, like, I remember, you know, like, just. a lot of fighting for them.

So, like, it was kind of a relief maybe. Like, I'm sure, like, initially, you know, it's a shock. Like, you're, you know, they're together your whole life and then now they're separated. Like, we had to move. Like, we're living in New Hampshire at the time. So, and I think, like, I was getting comfortable in that, like, school system had friends there and stuff. So, it, you know, it, I'm sure it was a little bit of a thing at the time. But, you know, we went up and saw my father every couple weeks or whatever,

so he was still involved in our lives. But how would your brother describe you if he was here back then? What were you like as a kid? Well, so, I mean, honestly, like, as a kid, like, I was a piece of shit. Like, as a, like, a young kid, I think I was sweet. Like, my nature. I think that was my. but um like in in high school and stuff like i like was a bully like it turned into like a piece of

shit you know coward bully um my brother like i hold a lot of regret and guilt kind of like i wish i was a better older brother to him you know um the stuff i was going through like at the time like i just i wasn't equipped to kind of look within and face my own issues face my own insecurities like low self-confidence, like whatever stuff I was dealing with at the time. So I took it out on other people. And, you know, looking at that, like, it's something like I look back and I'm ashamed of, but I also kind of grew out of it quickly. Like my first bid, I remember, I went to the mods initially.

Like I got a six-month sentence when I was senior in high school. So I instead of graduate and I'll go to fucking Bill Rica, you know. So I went to county for six months, and I got lugged. I was in the mods, got in a fight, and got lugged behind the wall. And, like, it was there, like, a few weeks, and I seen these two dudes, like, young, like, my age, you know. They were, like, guys that were respected in there. And they ran up on some dude who was canteen day. They ran up and took the guy's canteen.

And I remember, like, just thinking, like, I lost all respect for him, you know? It's like, that's, like, you guys are fucking bullies. Like, you're cowards. Like, you guys are supposed to be about something. Like, you know, I just, uh, I lost all respect from when I was looking down on them. And I don't think it was like an immediate like recognition, but it wasn't long after. Like, at some point, like it hit me.

I was like, oh, shit. Like, I'm no fucking better. Like, I didn't really beat people up in high school. Like, I wasn't given kids swirlies or whatever. But I was, like, vicious. Like, I was fucking, you know, like mentally abusive. And like, I just like, um, so I was like, I was no better than those dudes. I'm fucking looking down on, you know?

And that was really kind of like my first, like, life evolution, I think. Like, and it's just sometimes, like, what I've found, like, like, prison sucks, right? Doing time sucks, but it does afford you the luxury to think, right? Like, you get a lot of time to kind of think about, you know, stuff, like, who you are and how you are. Like, also, like, like, that first bid, like, I decided, like, my character was important to me. Like I wanted to be fucking a good person. I wanted to be a man of my word. I wanted to, um, you know, I've tried to like, tried to do that.

Like, even when I was fucking up a lot, like later in life, like, I tried to maintain like a, like, you know, just a core set of values and principles. And, you know, you still fuck up like life. Life is about like making mistakes, you know, but, um, I tried to always, like, it should matter, you know. Like, it should matter and it matters to me. Why'd you go to jail that first time? I mean, six months for a senior in high school seems like a lot. Yeah, I had a gun. I took my grandfather.

He used to collect guns. So I mean, I like to say I borrowed it. Other people say I stole it. So I was going to return it. Like, I just, yeah, I took a gun from him and I had it. Like, I didn't bring it to school or anything. Like, I think I was probably planning on like robbing drug dealers or whatever. Like, I had already, I wasn't, I was, I was, I was,

on a bad path in life, you know? So, like, I was up to no good with it, but I, I didn't do anything with it. Like, I think, like, I showed it to a couple friends or whatever. And, like, I was selling weed at the time. Like, I sold, like, an eighth to some kid. Like, I was buddies with him. He knew about the gun. And, like, his parents found it.

And so he ratted me out. Like, he didn't even get arrested. Like, his just parents found the eighth. And he was like, Justin Pax, you got a gun? You know? Fucking so, like, you. They called the school or whatever. And, yeah, so they found that.

And there was no alternative. I don't know. It just seems a little harsh if you didn't have any ill intentions with it. Well, yeah. I mean, so, like, in general, I think, like, a problem with, like, the criminal justice system is they're too quick to, like, incarcerate people that you should be trying to help. You know what I mean? Like, I think a lot of kids, like, I mean, I've seen it happen. Like, I'll get into stories later.

or maybe just like young dudes who were in prison and I didn't think they should have been you know what I mean like they they they had a chance like and maybe what they did was fucked up you know what I mean like when my buddy Ann or whatever like he like the Patriots lost the Super Bowl and he was drunk and like he suckered some kid off a bike and you get hurt um so it's like it's a bad thing right like you should have some sort of consequences but like he's doing like they sent him to like I met him in maximum security prison and he's up there hanging with like, you know, killers and guys doing natural life sentence. And he learned how to be a criminal. And then, like, I heard after I got out, like, he wasn't out a year. And, like, now he's back for, like, 20 years. Like, he picked up a fucking screamer because,

and, like, yeah, so I don't know, like, they should be a lot more proactive with identifying, particularly when it's young people. You know what I mean? Like, young kids, like, just too quick to incarcerate people, which is just going to like they wonder why the fucking recidivism rate is so high for people it's high because you block people up you don't give them any like programs

or like opportunity to like better themselves they just send them block them up most people are going to get out again you know what I mean then they get out and yeah so like in general I think like they're too quick to incarcerate people on the flip side, like for me, like, I did have a gun. And, I mean, I was destined to, like, you know, end up locked up anyway. I think, like, I was just, I was fucked up when I was younger. Just highly, highly self-destructive, you know. When you saw those, you know, younger inmates come through later on when you were in prison

serving your longer sentence, did you see a little bit of you in them? Did it give you, like, some reflection? Yeah. I have certainly, like, probably some of the guys, you know, like, it just, like, I don't know, like, aunt particular. There was another kid, he got locked up. He got a two-year sentence. They sent him to maximum security prison. This dude had six months left to wrap, and there was a beef, like the dude.

I'll probably get to this story, but, like, I got my throat cut when I was locked up. And the dude had cut my throat. like he's doing a natural life sentence like he's like a killer very dangerous dude like so there's some sort of beef like i wasn't in the block when it happened and um and this dude the guy mike ended up smashing the guy's head in with the cane like beat him with his own cane and two other guys got hemmed up locked up for it one dude just walked by and like closed the curtain which is kind of like a just a convict thing to do right like you see a fight like you close the curtain so like CEOs can't see.

He got a second-degree murder sentence because of that. And the kid who had six months left, I don't think he was the one who closed the curtain. I think, like, the fight initially started with him, and then Mikey came in to help him. But because the fight initially started with him, they had him as a co-defendant, too. And Mikey tried to do the right thing.

He tried to, you know, say it was all me. They didn't know I was going to do it, like, dot-da-da-da. But they gave that kid a second-degree sentence, too. And it's just, I remember just being, like, horrified. that story like I was in I was waiting to go to Ddu and I was in 10 block with the kid and motherfucker had six months left like he was planning to get out like you know talk like his mother was all excited and shit like that and now like the rest of his life's fucking done like it's yeah there's there's problems within the the criminal justice

system you know but yeah I certainly probably saw and that's probably why I took an infinity to some of those guys you know I mean like aunt that probably saw so myself and them. Like, just mainly, like, like, potential. The potential to be better. Like, he wasn't, like, I think a lot of the white guys, like, sometimes, like, they get locked up. Like, they get drug problems and stuff like that.

Like, like, he wasn't a junkie. Like, he was just, like, he made a dumb mistake, you know, like, he was fucking drunk. He's pissed off the Patriots lost, and he did something stupid. But, like, most kids do stupid shit, you know what I mean? It's just sometimes you get locked up. And it's like if he came from money. or whatever, I'm sure, like, strings would have got pulled and he would have never got locked up. And, like, he could have been something.

Like, he just, he was a smart kid. Like, I think he could have, you know, had a different life than a life of crime, which is, you know, it's just sad. So you do those six months in county. Do you go back to school and finish it up? Yeah, so I ended up getting my GED. I got my GED, and I was out, like, literally like, two weeks. And then I was living on campus. The college has since shut down.

but I was living in Brookline, you know, going for free because my mother worked for admissions. So like really good opportunity. And like I didn't, I wasn't very good at school. Like I didn't pay attention. You know, I mean, I didn't. But like even I found in college it was a little bit different. There were courses that I was interested in. Like there was a psychology course that I liked.

The business shit I was interested in. So I didn't find like the work wasn't too much. Like obviously, like I was partying a lot, you know. So, yeah, like, I went back to school, but, yeah, I get kicked out after three months. Three months, he made it. Yeah, three months. Why did you get kicked out? I was getting in fights.

I got in a fight, like, I think, like, my first week there or something. And I remember, like, I got pulled in the guy's office, and he was, like, a personal friend of my mother's. And he was, like, the dude I hit was, like, an R.D. or something, which is, like, you know, like, basically like a student snitch or whatever, but like, you know, he works for the college or whatever. So, like, I had an issue with him and I hit him.

And I remember I go into Paul's office and he's like, he's like, all right, I'm like, sorry, I didn't know he was the RD. And he was like, you can't hit anybody. I don't, R.D., any other students, you can't hit anybody. I was like, all right, yeah, sorry.

But I was like, yeah, I wouldn't have done that if I knew he was the RD. He's like, no, Justin, you can't hit anybody. Like, oh, okay, I got you, Paul. Where do you think that anger came from that your first instinct was to fight? So, you're running out of closet space. The good news, you don't need to stop shopping. You just need to start selling with the Real Real.

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Make room for what feels like you. Go to the realreal.com to start selling and get your extra $200 to keep shopping at the realreal.com. That's the real real.com. Terms apply. Where does that come from? Yeah. So, I mean, that's something like I thought a lot about in my life. Like, I don't, like, obviously there was some, there was some anger.

But I think for me more it was, like, I didn't like myself, obviously in high school, like, the way that I was. Like, to be that type of person, like, obviously, like, I wasn't. confident I wasn't comfortable with myself. And then when I got locked up, like I had been in a few, like, you know, school yard fights and shit like that. But when I got locked up, like, I remember, like, the first fight I was in the mods. Like, I won that one against the guy. And then, like, the next one, like, it was a good fight.

And then I got my ass kicked a couple times. But what I realized after all those situations was, like, it didn't matter. Like it didn't matter if I won or lost. Like it just, like it became, it was a way that I kind of like respect myself, you know. So I think what ended up happening was like it kind of became my identity, you know. Like I didn't like I got into a lot of shit. And like if you look at my prison history or you saw the amount of things that I get into, you'd be like, yeah, that dudes get some serious anger issues, you know.

And obviously like anger is a part of it. you're getting triggered and you're willing to fight. But for me more, it was just like it became like a way for me to at least respect myself. You know what I mean? Like I didn't took a long time for me to kind of work on myself to like, you know, like myself, I guess a little bit, you know. In fact, it's still fucking a struggle. It's probably part of the reason why I've struggled so much since getting out. That was at least a way that I could respect myself.

So I just had like a very, like, like, low tolerance like even if a situation like if I felt like somebody was disrespecting me or whatever like I would just be like alright let's just fucking sling you know um

so do you still feel like you're that person now or do you feel like you're changed and grown since then? Yeah no I've definitely evolved I mean I've still like so I haven't been in a fight I've been out almost seven years now

and I haven't been in one fight since I've been out but there has been situations like, you know, I ended up getting like my truck driver's license and I work in construction. And like that's a field where like you just, I don't know, like guys are out working in the heat and shit. Like it, there's going to be arguments sometimes or like situations. You're going to be dealing with different personalities. And I've still found myself like I've been ready, you know, a few times. So like it's not something I've completely like grown out of, you know, like I wish like I meditate and stuff like that, but I'm certainly no like Buddhist monk

you know but I try to avoid it like I know like getting out that was the number one issue that I had to to solve and I think a lot of the stuff

that like a lot of the problems that I had since getting out like a lot of the struggles that I've had it's just like I lost that is like my form of identity you know what I mean like it's almost like it's not a healthy confidence but it's still like a

confident you know what I mean like I just like I felt felt like I kind of lost my personality, I guess, or a lot. Like, it's just been a struggle to kind of find some of that shit. So let's talk about the lead up to the prison sentence that you, you know, you ultimately would serve 17 years. How old were you when that would, when you got sentenced?

Yeah, I was 21 at the time. So I had gotten out, a berica for the six months, went to college. I got locked up again for 15 months. And then I got out and I was out, maybe like, like eight months or so. And, yeah, so I was 21. That was a, it was a Halloween party. And yeah, I just, I showed up.

We were invited, like, the girl who was hosting the party. It was me and three friends. So we went there. And it was one of those things, like, like, it was evident, like, as soon as we got there, like, even though we were invited, like, we weren't a welcome presence, like all the other guys at the party. Like, you know, nobody knew us. like you're just, we're from a different town.

So it was clear, like, there was a, you know, kind of tension, like, right off the bat. And my buddy Richie, like, he said to me, like, we were there five, ten minutes maybe, and he was like, yo, Peck, we should just bounce. I was like, ah, fuck that. I was like, there's girls and there's beer. If they don't like it, they can leave, you know?

Like, that was just kind of my mindset at the time. Like, I was really, like, just kind of foolish and self-destructive. So, yeah, we, we, we, we, We hung around and that that was a That was a regret I've thought about a lot Like when I was locked up I wish I wish I would have just left you know But yeah so we were there and it's it's funny

Like funny in the fucked up way But like I said like the there's a lot of tension like Right off the bat like every dude like there like giving us like you know Fucking like the hard eyes and shit like that But the one dude, we were there in, you know, like 10 minutes and we're smoking weed. And the guy who ended up dying, like, he came outside. And he was like, you know, you mind if I smoke with you? And like I was chopping it up with him.

Like, he was the one dude who, like, I had like a pleasant interaction with. You know what I mean? The guy who ended up getting killed, which, you know, I mean, I wish nobody lost their life that night. But it was just one of those kind of fucked up. things. But yeah, so, like, the fight, it didn't even start with me. Like, my buddy, he was blackout drunk, like, basically, like, he got in some stupid argument.

The dude who ended up dying, the girl that he was there with, like, he had an argument with one of my friends. She had an argument with one of my friends. And she just, like, I was sitting on the couch or whatever talking to somebody. And I just see this girl run in and punch. my buddy in the face and he like kind of pushed her and she like stumbled over and like fell in like the stereo system and that's when shit just popped off like dude started running in from the kitchen to like jump on him so I ran to help him out and uh you know then I started getting fucked up and uh I had a knife on me

so like like I was damn near like I remember like I was down on the ground like on my knees like trying to get to my feet and, you know, kind of blinking away the punches and, like, close to unconscious. And then, you know, I got to my feet, unfortunately, as it turned out. And I had the knife in my hand and I just, like, swung it. You know, it was just at that point, like, I was just kind of acting on instinct, you know. And it just hit the guy one time in the wrong spot, hit him in the chest. And he died.

How intoxicated were you during this, if at all? Yeah, I was drinking, but like it didn't, I don't think it played that much of a role. Like, I mean, it obviously played a role in the altercation. My buddy was really shit-faced. Like, I had no idea the thing was going on. So, like, I wasn't really that cognizant or aware of stuff. And I should have been because, like, it was one of those situations. Like, like, we knew there was tension there.

Like, you know, basically you knew something was going to jump off. But the reason why I had the knife in the first place was, thought that I would just be able to pull it out. And my big thing back then was like, like, everything, like, try to make sure we just have a one-on-one fight, right? Like, if somebody had an issue, like, basically there were two of us that would have fought. It was me or the dude who got in the argument. And I was like, if one of them has an issue, like, I'll just pull the knife out and kind of,

like, we're outnumbered, like, we're greatly outnumbered, but I'll be able to, like, just threaten and make sure, like, we just, we get a one-on-one fight, and then, you know, we can get the fuck out of there after. So I should have been, like, more aware of, like, what was going on, you know, because the shit just caught me by surprise and shit popped off. And, yeah, it just takes one fucking second and then everything can change, you know. I was on my way to serving the vast majority of my adult life in prison and somebody died, you know. he was a father like that so yeah when did you realize what happened in that moment so um i ended up

getting knocked out at the scene and then uh i woke up later handcuffed to the hospital bed and uh i didn't know anybody was dead um but like i woke up handcuffed to the hospital bed like i knew like I think almost like intuitively like I just knew you know like and so um yeah it was at that point like not long after I woke up you know and then like I don't know how long it was like the the cops are standing over my side and they started trying to interrogate me so um you know I'm sure I got verified like shortly after I woke up but yeah what was going through your mind when you found out what happened, what you were being charged with, and when did you start to realize I wish I left that party?

Well, I mean, I probably, like, you know, like, at the time at the, like, when they're there, like, it's almost like you, I think maybe I was in like just convict mode or whatever, like just the cops are trying to interrogate, you know, so I'm just like not saying anything to them. But like, when they got me back to the police station, and, you know, I had obviously, I'd been arrested quite a few times before then, so, like, that was no, like, I was no stranger to circumstances like that, but it's a different thing when you know that you killed somebody

and, you know, like, they're talking about, like, you know, murder charges. So, yeah, it was back when I got to the police station. I think it really started to hit me or, like, you know, dawn on me, like, the situation. Um, and then I remember, uh, like I was there, might have been like the next day. Uh, they let my mother come in, like, to bring me breakfast or whatever. And like, just seeing the look on her face, like, she had seen me, I mean, she'd seen me with fights and stuff, but I was all fucked up. Like, so my head was, like, swollen. Like, I was really, um, you know, they, they fucked me up pretty good. Uh, uh.

Like seeing her face like that that was that was tough like we just both broke down crying, you know I think the cop even they let her come in like the prison cell like and she at the jail cell or whatever and hug me so but that was that was a low point in life you know did your parents stay supportive all throughout the legal proceedings up until the prison sentence yeah um yeah absolutely my father and my grandfather like I believe they were the ones who paid for my attorney and they paid like you know a decent amount of money like I had a really a high priced attorney and you know my mother she's always been there like throughout my bid she you know would come up and just always made sure I had canteen money who would always come up to visit and stuff you know so um Do you think that high paid attorney made a difference? Because the end result was you still got a lengthy prison sentence. Yeah.

Well, so it made a difference. They offered me a five to six year plea to plead guilty to manslaughter, which is incredibly low for having a body case, you know. So, yeah, it made a difference in that respect. I was stupid enough to turn it down. Like I just, which still doesn't make sense, because, you know, I had done time before. At that point, at the point when they offered me the plea deal,

like, I had already had, like, a couple years in. So I was basically looking at, like, a four-year sentence max when, like, what I was risking, you know, taking it to trial and losing. But I thought maybe the extenuate in circumstances, like me getting fucked up as much as I was, like, even if I did get found guilty. Like I was charged with second degree murder Like I knew my lawyer told me

He was like if they find you guilty It'll be a manslaughter conviction So you're not like I didn't think I was going to be a life sentence And with the manslaughter I thought maybe I'd get like a 10 to 12 You know something like that So I didn't think that I was risking As much as I was like

You know the judge cited my record and stuff But he hit me like the max For manslaughter In Massachusetts I think it's 18 to 20. So I got a 15 and 18. So it was pretty steep. But, you know, at the same point, like, that's the game, right?

Like, if they offer you a plea and you turn it down, like, once they get you, like, they're going to smoke you to make an example. And somebody died. So, like, I mean, I probably deserved it. I mean, it's a tough situation because if you're looking back on it now, you know, you're thinking what would have happened if I just took the plea? But then on the other, and what if I went to trial and won? Yeah. Well, so the, like, one of the toughest periods in my prison sentence was, like, six years in when I knew that if I took the fucking plea, like, I would have been home. And I still had, like, over a decade left.

Like, so that was, that was certainly tough to deal with when I was in there. But I think, like, the way, like, as I got older, like, the way that I. I kind of rationalized it or just talked myself into being able to live with it was like it took me a while to kind of grow and evolve, right? Like, so if I took the plea and get out, like I was still fucking probably going to be an idiot back then, you know, so maybe I would have got out and hurt somebody else or did something else fucked up. It took me a long time to kind of work through my issues and the guilt and the self-hatred

and shit like that. So, you know, I don't know, you never know how things are going to turn out, right? But, like, I wasn't in a place, like, even if I went to trial and I got found not guilty. Like, I was still an idiot. Like, it's not like I wasn't at a point where I was going to be able to turn my life around and become a productive, like, good member of society. Like, I still, like, had this thing where, like, I thought I was, like, a criminal or whatever, you know? And so I would have done something else.

stupid. When you went to trial, what were the final charges you were convicted of? They found me guilty of manslaughter. So how does it? Voluntary manslaughter. So I was charged with second degree. Second degree murder. Yeah.

Yeah, that was the charge. And in fact, when they, when they read it, they said that I was guilty. But, like, so they said I was guilty. And then they said the second, so they said that they read the, in the charge of second degree, they were like, we find the defendant guilty. so like I was like oh shit like I just got a life sentence and then they continued reading they were like

of the lesser charge manslaughter so then I was like okay it's not murder and then I was like oh shit I'm still fucking guilty you know so that's interesting that they can pick either murder or manslaughter yeah I believe if I remember correctly I think I had the option of just uh

uh no actually I don't think so like um Yeah, I think they always had the option of finding me guilty of a lesser degree. Oh, it was involuntary manslaughter. Like somehow like that that was an option to, like there's a way where you can say like you didn't want to have the option of that, which kind of forces like their hand maybe, I guess, to find you guilty of either manslaughter or second. Did you testify on your own behalf? No, I didn't.

And that's, like, looking back on it, I kind of wish I had. Like, I think my lawyer, like, it made sense. I think at the time he was like, listen, if you sit there with your suit and tie on, like you just look like a good college kid. And, you know, if we put you on Stan, like, I think he was worried about, like, the prosecutor being able to get to me or, and then, like, it would have gave them the option to. I think if I took the stand, they were going to be able to bring up my record. And, you know, I had already done a couple bids and there was violence on it and stuff.

So, but I think, I think, you know, the jury finding me, I think in a case like that, they want to hear your side of the story. I feel like you have to. And because you're trying to say self-defense. Right, right. So we were relying on, like, other people's testimony, you know, and it was a big bra. like so they had pictures of me fucked out so like they knew that I had been beat up

and uh with a lot of the witness testimony like there was you know there's obviously varying accounts but even some of the uh the prosecutions witnesses like they they basically said you know like I was kind of like getting hit or beat up you know um

but it's it's one of those things like that the guy who died like he was unarmed so like you stab an unarmed man in the chest, like, there's, you know, I think it was a close case. Like, I understand, like, I had a chance probably to beat it and it was probably 50-50, maybe another jury. Like, they find me not guilty.

But the jury probably, I mean, they got it right. Like, I stabbed somebody and he died. And I deserve definitely to probably pay for it, you know. What happened to your friend that was kind of the main piece of this whole thing? Well, fucking ironically, I hopped in to help him out, but he had run away that night. He, uh, um, which I just like, I don't even really hold him account. Like, I think that was more of the booze because, um, I mean, he was a tough fucker and I had been through like a lot of stuff with him. And he had been through situations of mine where he had my back.

Like I'd been jumped before and, and he was there for me. So, um, I don't. don't know maybe it's just like he saw what happened and it you know caused him to run but my issue more with him was like after the fact uh like he didn't like he he tried to justify it like he told me like he was like oh i was running to get you know my girlfriend's car and i was going to run the guys over that that were jumping you or whatever and it's like motherfucker like she your girlfriend lives like 30 minutes away. You were running to get her car and fucking, so like it's just, I would have liked to hear,

like, my other friend, like, so, like, the fight happened in the house and I ended up getting dragged outside. And I remember, like, I woke up, like, I had been knocked out in there, but I woke up when I was outside, they had dragged me outside. And, like, a kid was sitting on my back and he had, like, kind of, like, my head peeled up. And, like, another dude was getting ready to boot me in the face. and I heard this kid, like, in the background, going, like, just give him a one-on-one, just give my one-on-one.

So, like, yeah, which wasn't very helpful at that point. But I ended up getting bailed out for a time, and I saw him. And, like, I remember him, like, apologizing to me and, like, crying. Like, he was beat up about it. Like, he felt bad about it, you know? and so like I appreciated that and I think kind of like from my other friend's perspective it just would have been nice to hear him say like like dude I fucked up like I didn't mean to run away you know but to each their own you know so you get convicted they sentence you and they give

you the 18 15 to 18 yeah and where do they send you and you're 21 years old or 22 about Yeah, I was 21 when it happened. I think it was, it happened in 97. I didn't go upstate until like 2001. So I was out a while before like waiting trial. What happened like initially, like I was locked up for like 10 months. And I think like, you know, my father and my grandfather, they were asking my lawyer, like, you know, how long until he goes to trial? Like we want to get him out of there.

And he told him a year. estimated a year. But like, so like 10 months in, like something came, like, they found out, like, they hadn't even tested, like, they had to do, like, DNA testing and stuff. So they were looking at more time. So, you know, they requested my lawyer to try to get my bail reduced. So it was 100,000 I was locked up for initially. And then they lowered it to 50 G's and my grandfather bailed me out. How much you have to pay on the 50,000? Is it just 10% in Massachusetts?

Yeah, well, I think you could do like a bond. I think it was 50,000 cash that they had to pay. Oh, wow. Yeah. And do they get that back? Yeah, yeah, they get it back. And that was a thing, too, like, because I ended up, I got my bail revoked, but like that was a big question, like kind of initially to my lawyer, I was like, if I get my bail

revoked, like, they're still going to get their money. He said the only way they don't get their money is if you run. And I knew I wouldn't do that to them, you know. So after you're sentenced, where do they send you off to? So I went to, it was conquered at the time. That used to be the classification section. So like it was state prison obviously then. So I went to Concord.

I was there like a few months. And then I got sentenced. They classed me to Shirley Max because, you know, the amount of time that I had. Like, like, I was always going to go to maximum security just because of the case,

you know, initially anyway, because of my case and the amount of time that I was doing. So, like, one of the issues, like,

when I was in Concord, like, you know, obviously, like, I just came in, like, the,

like, that felt like a life sentence to me. You know what I mean? Like, like, I was 21 at the time. Like, I just remember thinking about it.

It was like 18 years. Like, I have to do, like, the full thing, like, no appeals or whatever. like that's essentially like from the time I was three to the time that I caught my case like that's the amount of time that I have to do it just like to a kid like like that just it felt like my entire life you know um yeah you miss like all your 20s yeah I missed all my 20s and all my 30s I got it when I was 39 um how much time do you have to serve on a 15 to 18 so you can see parole at 15 you have to do the whole 15

before you can even make it to parole. Yeah, there's different states where you get like statute, good time and shit like that. You know, but like, yeah, you got to serve, yeah, you serve the bottom number. Like, you can earn good time and shit. But, like, I was an idiot when I was locked up, so I didn't get much good time. But that's not reducing the 15. It does. It comes off both.

It comes off both numbers, yeah. Okay. So you could have, if you didn't get into trouble in prison, you could have gotten out earlier. Yeah, yeah. And I definitely, like, so I ended up serving 17 and a half. But yeah, like, I could have theoretically gotten a parole, like, if I was good in there and stuff. Now, with your kind of charges, how do they treat you? How do other inmates look at you? Well, I mean, I went to maximum security, so, like, there's other dudes, like guys who get bodies and natural life sentence. So, like, I don't think it was, uh, it was anything.

like particularly like like oh this guy's you know killer or whatever like people don't care so but I was uh you know I got into a lot of a lot of shit in there so I don't know like I ended probably developing a reputation like I remember getting out of DDU one time and then like I got out and I don't know I was trying to be good but something else happened and I was back in DDU and it was like like all the COs, like, they would see me and like, like, I'd go and like the dudes on the tear, they're like, ah, Peck, you're back. Like, what took you so long, you know? And I remember, like, it hit me.

I'm like, I have a reputation. Like, I'm in a fucking, I'm in a maximum security prison. And, like, I'm looking at other people. Like, like, they're crazy and stuff. And I was like, I'm crazy. Like, what the fuck? Like, what happened to me, you know? Now, share with us some of the things that you were getting yourself in trouble with inside

these prisons. Yeah. So, like, I mean, a lot of fights, like a lot of stuff like that. I mean, there was dumb shit just like, you know, like the COs, like tell you to do something or whatever and just, you know, being generally like, you know, not listening to their rules and regulations or whatever. But, yeah, the biggest issue. Like I got in a lot of altercations when I was locked up. what would you say was the the craziest biggest

altercation that you got into? Well, probably where I mean, where I got my throat cut. Yeah, tell us what happened there and what went down. Yeah, so that was in a that was in Walpole dude, Mikey,

like, so he had gotten out of Dedu. He was a friend of mine. But we're in the DSU block. So like like Wallpole like was weird like 10 block was pretty big. Like that's the whole. hole but like wall pole was pretty violent back in the day and like there was a lot of stuff

going on so it was one of those situations like they had to open up they opened up a couple other blocks where if you did something like bad like if you get caught with the knife or whatever like they wouldn't even send you to 10 block anymore they'd just send you to like the DSU block so we were in that block which was we're locked up 23 hours a day um you'd get out or maybe 22 I think maybe we got two hour recreation periods. But yeah, locked up the majority of the day, and they would do it by sectors. You would get out kind of by sector.

So Mikey was in my same sector. And so, like I said, he was a friend of mine. Remember, like, we bonded. Like, there was this dude, boathead who turned out to be a fucking rat, so we're on the wrong side of that. But, like, guys were, like, starting to kind of turn against him. And me and Mikey were friends with him. so like we kind of like had his back, you know what I mean, in a certain situation.

It never amounted to anything when we're there. But there was kind of like a mutual respect that like even though like the tide started to turn with this guy, like we were still willing to roll with them, you know. And I knew Mike he was crazy. Like he was a dangerous kid, but he was my friend. So he'd gotten out of DDEU and so we're locked up in the sector and I was buying booze off this, Bolivia, he used to make fire fucking home brew.

And so I was like, Mikey, I was like, I'm going to get eight bottles of brew. I'm like, you want to drink with me? And he was like, no, man, I shouldn't I shouldn't bro. I was like, come on, Mikey, come on. So I kept trying to talk this motherfucker into drinking with me. And he was like, no, I really shouldn't.

I really shouldn't. And now I realize why he was saying that. Like, he doesn't handle his boo as well. I think he was on like clodopens too. So like that's a bad mix when you take beans and fucking and drink. Like I said, he made good booze. So he was in the cell next door to me.

And so, like, finally he says, like, he's like, yeah, all right, I'll drink with you. So we're drinking and then, like, I don't know, just like shooting the shit on the tier or whatever because we were locked up. Like, our recreation hadn't come out. Like, I think we had, like, nighttime wreck or whatever that day because the fight ended up happening during chow time. But so, like, he, so when he was in D-DU, there was a good friend of mine, J.T. Like, him and Johnny had an issue.

So when he came out and I seen him at the DSU block, like, we had talked about it. He was like, hey, just to let you know, like, J.T. had an issue. And I had already heard from J.T. Like, I knew they had their thing or whatever. And I was like, Mikey, I'm like, listen, you two are, you know, like as long as you don't jump them or whatever. You know what I mean? Like, you guys just handle your business when you see each other, if that's, you know. So, like, that wasn't an issue.

But when he had some liquor in him, like, so we're shooting the shit back and forth. And then all of a sudden, like, got kind of out of nowhere to me. He was like, he was like, Peck, he was like, your boy's a bitch. And I was like, huh? Like, what, Mikey? He's like, your boy's a bitch. And I was like, like, now I started to get kind of aggravated, like his tone or it. I was like, Mikey, what the fuck are you talking about?

He's like, you heard him. He's like, J.T. J.T.'s a bitch. And then all I said, I was like, yeah, well, you won't say that to his face. And he was like, well, I'm saying it to your face. And at that point, like, the way I was in there or whatever, like, it wasn't about him and J.T. having an issue anymore. It was about, like, him kind of, like, calling me out or whatever.

So I was like, all right, when the door is cracked, like, come to my cell and fucking, we'll talk about it. He was like, all right. And so that was it. and the thing with that is like so Mikey like he had a reputation already at that point for stabbing people like he was like kind of little and frail and I'm not like a big intimidating dude but like I knew that I'd be able to like handle Mike like he just he couldn't fight

like sorry Mike I mean he's doing natural anyway so I don't think you're going to hear this but uh fucking uh um but like and and I knew like he had already showed me like the knife that he had so I knew he had a knife and I knew he was going to come in on me with the knife but I was really because of my case like I was in the minority in terms of being in Walpole like I didn't ever generally have a knife like there are a few occasions where like I'd borrow one off somebody like a situation where you know we thought shit was going to jump off like really serious or whatever But, and I had plenty of time. Like, I knew he was going to come in with a knife on me, but I was just, like, maybe, like, overconfident. And I thought, like, even if he has a knife, like, I'll just be able to, like, put one on his chin and fucking end it, you know. But unfortunately, he didn't come in with the knife. Like, I ended up finding this out after.

I mean, he had a box cut array. I found out when it happened. but I found out after, like, how he got it. He was in D-D-U, and, like, people used to, like, hide, like, knives. Like, one of the place to, like, hide knives was in, like, the light shaft. So he had gone in to hide, like, whatever knife in the light shaft, and, like, a maintenance worker must have left left the hand, like, a box cut of razor blade. So, like, he took that.

So when he came in on me, like, he had it, it was, like, tied, like, fast. fashioned on like a plastic handle. Like he had it all rigged up. But I seen it. Like I was in the back of the cell when they, they cracked the doors for chow. Like it happened at chow time. And I seen him in the doorway at that.

And I was like, oh, shit. Like, and I ended up freezing because what ended up had, like, he just walked up to me and kind of like put it under my neck and started cutting. And I didn't react until like late. Like, I was really lucky. like when they took me to the hospital later to like to stitch me up like they told me the carotid artery was exposed they said if it went if that shit went a fucking cunt hair deeper like I was going to bleed out you know so this guy was aiming to kill you oh yeah yeah all over this doesn't seem like a serious thing to kill someone over yeah but the I mean the the problem is though right yeah it wasn't and we were friends like we had that uh uh friendship but he was drunk he was on beans which I think contributed to the fact that there is, I mean, it obviously contributed to the fact that

there was an issue in the first place. But, um, but, but he was a killer. Like, he didn't fight. Like, so to him, and even, like, he called, uh, over to myself, like, before, like, uh, before they cracked the doors before he came out. He was like, he's like, he's like, hey, Peck, he's like, um, he's like, you know, like, he called my name and I, I didn't answer. And I just wouldn't answer him. And then he was like, you know what time it is, right? And I look back on it and like now if it happened, like I would have answered him because I think he was like, I think he was going to maybe try to dead the issue, you know? But he was telling me, like, you know what's going to happen.

And I knew, like, I knew he was going to come in with the knife and try to get me. I just, I didn't know he had the fucking the box cut of raise or like my thinking, like when I saw that was like, like my thinking when he if he came in with the knife I was going to be offensive right like I was just going to try to like just go up and hit him before he could like get off a good shot or whatever and and hopefully drop him or get control of the situation but when I seen the box cutter I'm like what the fuck do I do like if I get offensive like he's just going to slice me up like fucking zero you know yeah is it possible to defend yourself against like a prison shank if you're unarmed yeah I mean I guess like if you're Yeah, you just try to hit him on the jaw, you know? I guess if you have time to prepare, like, you could make, like, a suit, like, you know, like magazines to your chest and stuff like that. Like, that's probably a good idea. I got stabbed later on in my bid, and I probably should have done that, but I didn't know he was going to have a knife either.

But, but, yeah, so, so Mikey came in. He had the box cutter, and, yeah, like, I think I froze. And looking back, like, I don't know, like, I had been through situations. before so like I always kind of took like I like I must have been scared like I was scared kind of frozen because even like he didn't swing it like he just walked up to me and kind of put it under my neck and it was really like a delayed reaction on my part you know um I'm really lucky fucking I didn't die but uh but yeah so he started cutting and then like I was able to grab his hand and kind of throw him down on the bed and like

Like, that was just crazy. So, like, I had him down, and, like, he was pinned. It was in his left hand. Like, he must be a lefty or whatever. So, like, just the way, like, I was, like, body positioned and stuff like that, like, I had, like, my right hand was obviously, like, grabbing his wrist. But so I just kind of had him pinned and it was just, like, a stalemate. Like, I couldn't really do anything or whatever.

But, like, like, my next gushing. And, like, the first thing, like, he said to me was, like, he's like, I did this because you're my boy. And I got pissed off. So I started, like, I let go of his hand, and I'd start hitting him. And then, like, his arm would start coming up, like, he was, you know, going to go for my neck again. And I have to grab the fucking, I grab his hand and put it back down. And then the second thing he said, he was like, he said it again. He was like, I did this because you're my boy, man.

I love you, bro. It's like, you fucking love me, motherfucker. You just tried to decapitate me. So, like, I get pissed again and fucking hit him. And then the third thing he said, he was like, he was like, he's like, bro. you're going to bleed out. He's like, you're going to bleed out, bro. And I was like, Mikey, I was like, you got to drop the razor.

And he's like, I can't do it. I can't do it, man. I'm like, Mikey, you got to drop the fucking razor. He's like, I can't do it. So, Mike, I give you my word. I'll just let you get the fuck out of the cell. Just drop the fucking razor. And that was like a hesitation or whatever.

And then I don't know if he verbally said that he would or if there's something in his eyes. But like, I let his wrist up and he started like going his, because I couldn't get the thing. He had it tied to his wrist. So I couldn't get it out of his. hand when I had him down. So he started like going like that with his wrist or whatever and the thing started unraveling. And then I let his other hand up and he grabbed it and then he threw it on the floor. And then I remember like my hand cocked back like fucking like I was thinking about maybe unloading on him.

But at that point like for all I knew like I was bleeding out. Like I wasn't dizzy or anything but my neck was fucking gushing, you know. So I just I grabbed the razor blade and. threw it in the toilet and he just got out, went back into his own cell. And how, uh, so like, it happened at chow time. And I remember, like, I think it was like pot roast or roast beef or something, but it was like one of like the exclusive dinners that I liked.

And so this dude D block, this dude I used to play poker with, like he saw that I didn't come down and get chow. So he fucking sent the screw double O up, big black dude, double O. with like a tray he was like he didn't he didn't see me go down like the fight was so quiet and like he didn't apparently hear like the initial argument so he didn't know anything happened so he sent the screw up to myself so i remember like double o like he was like hey d block sent this to you and i had like a fucking sheet tied around my neck at that point there's blood like everywhere you know like i had already soaked through the towels and stuff so double o seen that he was like yeah we got a 1099 or whatever

you know, fucking code there was at the time to call the shit in. But that's how they ended up, like, discovering it. Which was good for me anyway because, like, it was a weird situation. Like, so, like, I was just worried about kind of stopping the bleeding. But I was going to be in a tough spot because, like, I didn't want to, like, I don't know. I didn't want to yell to the COs. Like, like, help. You know what I mean?

So I was going to have to, like, my plan was provided. I was going to do that. Like, if I started to feel like lightheaded or whatever, like I was bleeding out. But, you know, like, I had been alive long enough to think, like, okay, it didn't nick an artery. Like, like, you know what I mean? Like, I'd be probably dead already. So, but, like, my plan was, like, obviously I know I need medical attention.

Like, I was going to, like, go after him again when they cracked the doors for, like, to trays. So I'm lucky that didn't happen because he obviously still, he used the box cutters. So he still had a knife in there. And, like, I was, you know, pretty badly wounded. So it ended up working in my favor that deblox. So I didn't get shot when he sent the screw up. What ended up happening to the guy that attacked you? He stayed in the unit or?

No, no, no, fucking, no, he got D to you for that. Like, so I ended up writing him, like, an affidavit. Like, I told the, like, I wrote in the affidavit, I was like, yeah, which this was good at me like because I you don't like to have any like suicide things on your thing but I told him I was like hey I cut myself and Mikey came in to help me out or whatever

but they they didn't buy that they knew that was bullshit so he still ended up getting DDo time and you didn't have to technically snitch yeah no I didn't fucking in fact like I got a ticket for it like this so I went down like I had to go to the outside hospital but you know like the ips saw me when I was down there or whatever and you know they asked

what happened I said I cut myself shaven so I got a I got a ticket that says like I cut myself shaving which is funny so now these prison hospitals are were they equipped to handle your like a wound like that no they had to take me to the outside hospital so if there wasn't enough time you could have died like if it did hit the artery that that prison couldn't have saved you if it yeah I mean if it hit the artery you hit hit the artery you it hit the artery you it hit hit the like so um like they went back like uh like i i have the the ticket for it like they said it was like eight minutes or whatever like they couldn't really see in the cell but like the the altercation took like eight minutes so it's one of those situations where it's like yeah i mean i if it nicked

the artery like i was i was going to die you know like the carotid artery like there was a reason like he knew where he was cutting and what he was trying to do like he was trying to kill me Do you think lifers should be placed with individuals who don't have life? Because a guy like that doesn't care. There's no consequences for his actions. Yeah. I mean, I think violent offenders or people who are getting into stuff in there, like, you can't just keep lifers, like, completely separate.

And a lot of dudes, they go in there and, like, like, not everybody's, you know, like Mikey, like, he's one of the most dangerous guys in there, like, just because he was just crazy. He was always stabbing people. I think he got locked up, like, I think he caught his case when he was, like, 16. It was, like, something like he watched natural-born killers, and then he went and lit somebody on fire. It was some fucking crazy case, so. And then, like, he ended up killing Billy the Jew. He tried to get me, he stabbed Tommy guns.

Like, he was, he was, you know, like, more dangerous than most. but yeah so i don't know if they should be kept separate i think i think that it's too often that there were dudes who were non-violent guys like guys would get caught up like at a medium security for like doing drugs or whatever and then you're sending them to maximum security and then so like they're not even getting in trouble for like violent shit and you're putting them with guys who are violent and then i don't i don't think that's right i think they should try to do a better job keeping people separated. You know, like when Mikey ended up

killing the guy later, like that kid, I don't think he was in there for a violent offense. He only had a couple years. Like, they should have never been in the same block, you know. And if that, if they weren't in the same block, then like that dude wouldn't be doing a second degree sentence right now as we speak. What do you think is, six months left?

What do you think is the psychology behind these guys like Mikey? Like, what makes them tick and survive? in prison and act like that? I just, so, like, he knew, like, he's doing a natural. And I think a lot of guys, like, even, like, a lot of lifers, like, you hold on to hope. Like, they hold on to hope for as long as they can with, like, appeals and shit like that, you know, like, um, like, my buddy Jody, like, I remember, like, he was always, like, big on his appeals and just kind of keeping hope alive. but for somebody like Mikey he's doing a natural

like he knew he had kind of no hope to get out so I think at that point like with him it's just you know it's just about like like you just I don't know it's a tough thing to resign yourself to the fact that you're going to spend the rest of your life

in prison you know so I just think like you just get caught up in being a convict or like he wants you know to be I don't know dangerous or just like respected you know I think respects big in there like it's actually one of the things like I kind of like miss about it like I just think

like in that world like not everybody is a good dude like I've met some of the best dudes I've ever met in there and I just think it's one of those things like adversity can build character with people right but there's also a lot of pieces of shit and there's also a lot of fake people like people faking the funk you know um but uh but character matters like that's how you're kind of judged in there you know you're judged

based on on character whether you're trying to fool people you're actually about shit um you know like whatever but it's still it matters in there and like i don't know like out here it just seems like like even like just like the way we're like you just you judge based on other shit like what job you have how much money you make shit like that you know I don't, I don't. What was it like going through those 17 years in prison and watching yourself age? Because those are some pretty, you know, important years where you see yourself your body changing, you know. I started getting fucking gray hairs and shit in my thirst.

What's it like to look in that mirror in a prison cell and just see yourself change physically like that? I don't know. Like I said, like in the beginning, like it felt like. a life sentence, but like, I don't know, like the days bleed into weeks and then all of a sudden, like, you got years down. It's just like the time ended up passing, right? Like I, I would look back on it and be like, all right, well, in some ways, like this did feel like the amount of time that it was, but in other ways, like, it's just like the years passed, you know? So I don't know, like, if in the moment, like you're kind of noticing it. Like, I'm sure, like, it's just, like,

like the first time I started getting gray hairs and shit. And I know thinking about it, like, you know, like I was a kid. Like, I was 20-something years old when this shit happened. And then, like, thinking about, like, I'm going to be a 40-year-old man when I get out. So it was maybe like forecasting or thinking like ahead of time. Like, you know, like that affected me like, oh, shit, like, I'm going to be an old man. And then when you get there, when you're 40, like, I don't, like, I'm. 46 now?

Yeah, I'm 46. Like, I still feel like, you know, younger or whatever. You know what I mean? Like, but I think thinking about it, like, I was just like, like, I'm missing, I'm going to miss all my 20s. Like, to me it was like, I'm going to miss the best years of my life, you know, and then I'm going to get out and like I'm going to be fucking over the hill and, you know, need Viagra to get it up.

Like, whatever. When you're in there, What would you say was the thing on the free world, on the outside world that you missed the most? Well, I mean, probably just like family or like close, like relationships. Like, you know, like I had some good friends in there and you have some bonds. But like the situation with Mikey, like that dude was a friend of mine. And then some dumb little thing happened and he's trying to fucking decapitate me. You know what I mean?

Like, that doesn't happen on the real world. But, yeah, like, family, like, missing my family, like, that was, like, like, really kind of the toughest thing for me in there was dealing with, like, the guilt, right? Like, you, and there's no way, there's no way to make up for it. Like, like, the hardest thing I went through in prison was, like, my grandfather in 2004. It was a couple of years after I got convicted. he came down with pancreatic cancer. So, like, him being sick and not being able to be out there for him and, like, my grandmother, and, you know, like, these were the people that were, they were there for me more than anybody, you know.

So, like, not being there for them for that, like, that was really tough. And I think that also contributed to, like, like, after he died, like, at the time, like, that was one of the few, like, I, like militantly tried to stay out of trouble like I remember like I wouldn't go to the gym or yard because like I was afraid I didn't want to get lugged didn't go to the hole like I wanted to be able to call my grandfather and and talk to him um but after he died like that was it was it was tough on me for a while like I think I lost my mind for a long time in there you know um but yeah like I don't know dealing with the guilt like you just and there's no way to make up for it like I couldn't go back I couldn't be a better older brother to my brother growing up.

Like, and you just couldn't make, couldn't make any kind of positive difference. Like, I remember having the thought, just like, like, that I was the worst thing to happen to the best people in my life. And there was no way to change anything. Like, it's just, like, it's just day after day. Like, you kind of have to sit with that guilt. Like, there's nothing you can do. It didn't matter if I, like, internally change during. anything you know what I mean like I couldn't I couldn't positively affect or positively change like

obviously some of the shit that I've done like I can never go back and and and give somebody their life back I can't you know uh uh give his family that that that person but like there's consequences to the actions that I have you that you can never change but but beyond that like like uh if you get out in theory like you can be a good person like Like you can kind of like positively make a difference in people's lives. And when you're sitting in there, you just, you don't have the ability to do that. Like you're just, you're just fucking there. And it just is what it is, you know.

What was a relationship with your brother throughout this prison sentence? Well, he's always been there for me. But like, I think it was hard on him. In fact, we've talked about it since being out. Like, it was hard on him to like, like, you know, we were talking the phone like a decent. amount like when I could call him or whatever um but he didn't come up much like he came up you know maybe a few times towards the end of my sentence a little bit but I mean he told me he said like I wish like I would have been there for you more but it it was just so like hard for me you know like to see

you in there which I completely understood you know like I don't and he was there for me plenty like if I needed something like I could have wrote and ask him you know um So it's just like, like, I think his way of dealing with it was just, you know, like to try to push it out, like not think about it, you know. What's that feeling like getting to the end of such a long sentence? Does it feel real that you're about to be walking out of there? What are your thoughts going in your mind? Yeah. I mean, it's certainly like the time started to drag.

Like, you know, like, I think like, like. It's just you get caught up in there, like with whatever's going on in prison. But when you start, like, when I started to have like a few years left, like, it started to hit me. Like, I started thinking about, like, getting out and, like, being free. And the more kind of you think about, like, you know, the streets or whatever, like, the longer your time seems to drag, you know. And it was like the closer I got to my out date, the longer the days seemed, like, the more like you would. think about stuff, you know, just out there.

So, I mean, it made it harder, but like, it was a good, you know, it's a good problem to have, right? Like, like, I was really looking forward to getting out. Like, I was looking forward. Like, I looked at it like I was going to have a second chance at life. And I knew there would be some adjustment. I anticipated there would be some adjustment issues getting out. but like it's just it was just harder in ways that than I anticipated how much different was it and how hard was it than what you expected when you got out after

all those years? It's much hard. I've struggled more since getting out than I ever did inside there, right? Like, I think it's almost like, I don't know, like, I thought like there would be some issues, but I was like, I'm going to be able, like, I have a perspective that most people don't have, right? Like, I thought that like kind of every day I'd be able to wake up and appreciate the fact that I was free, you know? And I would have that basis no matter what I was struggling with that I would kind of have that thing where like, all right, I'm not fucking in prison anymore, you know? but I think what ended up happening is like when I go through struggles out here

like you don't lose sight of that but like I don't know I just it's sad and it's sick and it's pathetic to say but the only place like I ever felt comfortable like I felt comfortable in prison you know and in many respects like you could drop me in prison tomorrow and I would be miserable it would be fucking hell but I think I would still be more comfortable in there in that environment than I am out here still, you know? So, and when you start to struggle with stuff like that, like, and there was like personality things.

Like I knew that I couldn't be the way that I was in there. So like, you know, like I used to be kind of like just sarcastic and whatever. I'd say what I thought and it didn't matter if people had an issue with it. But out here I start being really cognizant of that. So like, like, you know, like, there were issues kind of personality-wise. I think, like, I, like, I lost my confidence.

Like, I, in there, like, I, I knew how to be a convict. Like, I, you know, I was a good convict. Out here, all I had ever done is fail, right? Like, all I'd ever done is fail. And, and I hurt people, you know, people that I loved. And obviously, like, somebody I didn't know, like, you want to make a positive. impact you want to make a positive difference and uh like i i i struggle with that and i think like i had some relationships and like when those didn't work out like particularly the the second relationship

uh she had two young kids and like i got really kind of attached to them and like close with them and i was looking at it like like this was my my chance for redemption right like i'll have a family of my own. Like, I, you know, I can't go back and, and change some of the hurt that I, they caused my family. I can't, you know, go back and hug my grandparents again. Like, I lost both of them when I was inside. But this was like a chance to, to kind of make amends, right? Like, I was going to have a family that I could love and protect and make happy and care for. So when I failed at that and, you know, because of my own, you know, kind of personal struggles in my own like the the way that that affected our relationship and

stuff like that um it just it triggered old guilt's right like it you know new the new guilt's triggered the old stuff and then you just i got to the point where like i just like i stopped i felt like a failure out here like i felt like i couldn't live out here like the only the only place i was successful the only place that was good was in prison and it just felt sad to me, like, and just, like, kind of pathetic and weak. And generally speaking, like, I just felt like a lesser version of myself out here, you know. I felt like I lost myself in some ways. You know, like, in prison, like, I don't know.

You know, like, I felt just confident or whatever. Like, so all that stuff kind of, like, took a... hit out here and um i don't know like i struggle with different stuff at different times like i thought maybe like when i first got everybody was like socially like it's going to take some time to adjust but that wasn't really that like i didn't like sometimes like being in like a store or something like i remember the first time walking into like a grocery store you know like i just like was overwhelmed with like the amount of people fucking like all the food and shit uh but um yeah i don't know i forgot what is what can society do differently to help someone like yourself

after prison so that adjustment's a little bit easier yeah well there should be i mean they they should have like more programs they should have um they could do some like uh uh like maybe like convict to convict like counseling right like somebody who's been through it and somebody who knows, like, you're going to go through struggles. So, like, you can talk to other, like, people who are getting out or about to get out and they can understand, like, listen, you're going to go through shit. But, like, you know, you just got to try to, like, persevere, right? Like, but they should have more programs.

Like, they should have, like, a way for people to find, like, I'm really fortunate. The family support system that I have, like, my uncle, like, a, you. He bought me a vehicle so I could go to work. He paid for me to get my Class A truck driving license. So like, because otherwise, like, I wasn't getting fucking hired anywhere, you know. Like, I was, you know, I'd be flipping burgers somewhere. Like, if I didn't have a family willing to pay like $8,000, $9,000 or whatever it was for me to get my Class A license. And a lot of people just don't have that luxury, right?

So guys get out after doing a long day. time or even a short amount of time, if you have no way to kind of like, if you don't give people any, like, positive ways to, like, either make a difference or make a living, it's just, it's the easiest thing in the world to kind of gravitate towards back to, like, what you know or what, you know, like, because even me, like, with, like, like, like, I said, like, I was able to get a job, you know, like that, that the license, but that didn't, it didn't prevent me from, like, going through these struggles. And, you know, I've had some, like, dark time since being out, and it's just, and then it hits different out here because, like, like, like, like I said,

like, I felt like this is my second chance at life. And then, like, you just, like, you feel like a, like a failure, like you're failing at it. And so that can be tough. But, yeah, I would like give people an outlet so they can talk to people, right? Like therapy or like free shit like that, like free services where you can talk to people. But giving guys like a way to make a living, I think that would be a step in the right direction. Those dark times that you were just talking about that you've been experiencing, what keeps you from going off the ledge? Because obviously you're not in prison right now.

You're not going back. You're on the, you know, you're going on this path. what keeps you from going off the path? Yeah, well, I've had, so, like, for a while, like, it was, you know, like my ex, like, she was really good. Like, even after we broke up, and, like, I started, like, that's when, like, a lot of, like,

the guilt and, like, just really kind of low feeling started hitting, but, like, we were still friends, so she was there for me. You know, my brother and his wife, they gave me a beautiful niece and nephew, and I got a really good relationship with them. So for a while, like it was, I didn't want to hurt them. I didn't want to.

But it was a couple years ago or so. Like, I was to the point where even though, like, I wanted to be there for my niece and nephew, and, like, I had good people, like, my ex or, you know, like my brother, like, just my family in general. I didn't want to hurt them again, but, like, I was in a place where I thought everybody would be better off if I wasn't around, you know? Like, and when I got to that point, like, like, I mean, I was ready, like, I was ready to, like, I was ready to, like, crime again. Like, just go back down that road.

And what ended up happening, so, like, my boy, he had a gun for me. and I was getting ready. Like, my plan was to rob drug dealers. Like, I had gotten to the point, like, my niece and nephew, like, it's not that they weren't enough, but, like, I thought they were better off without me. So I was to the point of doing something, like, whatever, like, I was going to rob his drug dealer, which for me, like, that was my form of suicide. You know what I mean?

Like, because I know, like, I'm not a good criminal. Like I wasn't going to fucking, I was either going to end up dead down that road or just back in prison, which would have been worse than death, you know. So, like, that was a truly low point for me to kind of have that idea and have that plan to be willing to do that. And this was crazy what ended up happening. So I was working for my uncle at the time, like making like 100 bucks a day. Like, I couldn't, I had a class A license, but I still was having difficulty. at the time, like, getting, like, a job opportunity to actually utilize the Class A. And I'd been fired for my last job, had an issue with people or whatever and got fired from that.

So I was working for my uncle for $100 a day. Me and my ex had been broken up for a while. I'm still dealing with the guilt with that. And I was living at home, you know, and at that point, like, I was out four years or whatever it had been. And I was like, like, I'm just, I felt like an absolute failure. So I had these plans to do this and my boy like literally he had a gun for me like it was all ready to go. He was just waiting on his the guy to re-up and he was going to call me and then I was going to, you know, make a move on the dude by myself, which is not really a smart decision. But like I said, like that was just illustrates like how like just bad of a place I was in.

And I ended up getting a text. I was at work and I got a text from somebody I didn't know like I didn't know the name but I recognized the last name and he was like hey he was like if we get a chance like could could we talk and uh when I recognize the name I didn't hesitate I say absolutely so we schedule all the time like my lunch break and I he ended up calling me it was the uh the victim son uh for my case like the guy who died. It was his son. He wanted to talk to me. So we end up, he ends call me, we end up talking, like he gave me an opportunity. Like, I told him what happened. You know what I mean? Obviously, I apologize, but like that's one of those things like, like, what do you say to somebody?

Like, he was, you know, two or three at the time. Like, I stole his fucking father. You know what I mean? Like, what do you say to somebody in a situation like that? Um, so, uh, but like so he gave me an opportunity to say all that stuff and then towards the end of the conversation he uh he um he told me that he forgave me and then not only did he forgive me he was like I want you to do good he goes I want you to be good I want you to be happy make a difference make my father's death mean something um so him saying those words to me I mean like the the impact was like immediate you know like I went home that night and it just kind of hit me

like the first thing that kind of hit me I was like this man has more of a reason to hate me than anybody on this earth you know if he can forgive me like there has to be a path for me to try to forgive myself

you know like because I knew like I beat myself up for shit and I hope like a lot of guilt and deservedly so like I have a lot of shit to feel guilty about but also like you know like and he doesn't even know me like he doesn't know I have a good heart like at this point like I knew that I fucked up a lot but I knew I was a good person I have a good heart but I still I couldn't forgive myself so the fact that this man of all people could forgive me

um that really that really hit home and then like the biggest thing was just like I was to a point where as much as I love my family, I had convinced myself I was bad for everybody. So there was really, like, I don't see any path that I had to like, like, you know, like I had maxed out and like, like, just being able to like, because I had been struggling for a while, you know. And I just like, I couldn't do it anymore. But the fact that, like, the fact that this man could forgive me like that. And it was like genuine. You know what I mean?

Like it wasn't fucking like fake bullshit. Like he genuinely forgave me and like he said those words to me. Like he wanted me to do good, be good, fucking be happy. Like of all people, this man is telling me to be happy. Like I felt like I owed it to him. You know, like I, so I owed it to him. I owed it to him. I owed it to the memory of his father.

So like that, I don't know. It's still, it's crazy to think about. that he possessed, like, the strength and just to be able to do that. But so I immediately, like, I texted my boy. I told him that the plans were off, you know. I went back to looking for work, like, I went on fucking Indeed or whatever. And literally the next week, I end up finally, like, a company came around, like, gave me a chance to drive, like, a Class A.

So, like, immediately, like, I mean, the impact was felt immediately, but, like, I didn't, like, this sent me down, like, a spiritual path, you know? Like, I grew up, like, I was, like, atheist my entire life. But it just, it felt like something more, you know, like the timing of everything, like, given my mind place at the time, what I was planning. the fact that he reached out to me when he did and, you know, said the words. Like he could, like, I thought he was just going to tell me, like, you know, you fucking hated me. Like, how could I do this, whatever? Like, the words that he said to me, like, the impact that he had and, you know, the fact, like, I ended up getting a job, like, right after. Like, it's just, it saved my fucking life.

Like, of all people, the victim in my case, his son. saved my life like it was it's just hard to like chalk that up to like some cosmic coincidence you know like it just it felt like something like more you know um so like i just i started like you know like i worked like i've recently like quit that job or whatever but um but still it sent me on a path to just keep fucking trying like keep trying to to um you know kind of work um myself, work on my issues, just be better because ultimately life is just about, like, it's about connections and just you want to add to people's lives, right? Like you want to like just be a benefit, be a positive.

And I had never done that. I'd never accomplished that. And so I keep trying with that. But, yeah, I know. What advice would you give to someone that? finds themselves in your shoes and it's just getting out of prison after a lengthy sentence and is feeling lost and is feeling like they can't get ahead. What would you tell them if you were sitting down with them right now?

Just don't beat yourself up for feeling like that, right? Like, like, me, like, I think I compounded issues by like, you know, like, there's times like I started like having like social anxiety and stuff, right? And when I started experiencing that, like, that's not something something I experienced when I was in prison. And, like, I don't know, like, I felt like a pussy, you know? I'm like, why, why am I getting, like, nervous around, like, just this random person that I don't give a fuck about? You know what I mean? Like, well, like, just allow yourself to feel how you feel.

Like, don't beat yourself up over it. you know, try to be honest with yourself. Like, don't deny. Like, I think sometimes, like, we, we have a tendency to, like, either bury, like, how we're feeling, you know, or try to deny that it exists. Except that you feel like that and just try to work on it. Try to, like, what I'm trying to do is, like, like, turn,

like, if you can identify your weaknesses, like, you can turn those theoretically. You can turn them into strengths, you know. You just have to be willing to be honest with yourself. Like take an honest look at yourself, make an honest assessment of who you are and what your issues are and just work on them. But then, you know, and I guess the other advice I just say like be patient, you know, like I've been out. It's coming up. It's going to be seven years like December 29, 2000.

17 is when I got out. So it's coming up on seven years now. And I'm still fucked up. You know, like for the first time in my life, I feel like I'm on the right path. Like the spiritual stuff, like it feels good to believe in something more. Believe that, you know, maybe there's a purpose to this life or there's a reason we're here. Yeah, I think there's a reason why we struggle. Like everybody goes through shit.

So like your adversity, it can, it can. just try to try to be better, try to learn from stuff and grow from it. Absolutely. Well, Justin, thank you so much, man, for coming. I'm really happy that we met. You're incredible. For your first time ever, you spoke, you know, perfectly, and you told your story really well.

I appreciate that. Your Captain Morgan's helped a little bit too. You know, you're our first guest that's had a drink on the show. Actually, I think maybe Unique might have had one drink, but, you know, just like the rawness and how much emotion you put into telling your story. I think it's going to go a long way with the listeners. Well, I appreciate and you let me tell the story. I think it's a really, like, commendable thing that you're doing.

Like, you faced your own adversity, right? You've found a way to turn that into something good. Like, not only are you making a living for yourself, but you give other people, like, a forum to just come talk about their stuff. which is, it can be, I think for me maybe it's like a bit therapeutic, which is good. But like whatever people's reasons for doing it, like you're still, you're giving people an outlet to speak. And it's just, it's a commendable thing that you're doing because like I know it's not easy. Like, so.

Nothing's easy. That's true. Nothing. We all have our challenges and our adversity. And, you know, we just got to keep pushing. And you never know what could happen. Yeah. Absolutely.

You know, the world is. the universe is crazy you know