Locked In with Ian Bick - Ex-NYC Grifter on Running Cons & the Scams That Sent Her to Prison | Kari Ferrell

Episode Date: March 18, 2025

Kari Ferrell shares how she became a well-known New York grifter, the scams she ran, and how her deception finally caught up with her. #NYCScammer #ConArtist #WhiteCollarCrime #TrueCrime #FraudLife #Hustler #ScamExposed #criminalminds Thank you to LUCY & DRAFT KINGS for sponsoring today’s episode: Lucy: Let’s level up your nicotine routine with Lucy.  Go to HTTP://LUCY.CO/IANBICK and use promo code (IANBICK) to get 20% off your first order. Lucy has a 30-day refund policy if you change your mind.  Draft Kings: New players can get FIVE HUNDRED CASINO SPINS ON A FEATURED GAME! Just sign up with code IANBICK and wager a minimum of five dollars to receive FIVE HUNDRED CASINO SPINS ON A FEATURED GAME. Connect with Kari Ferrell: Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/hotdoghandjobs Website: https://open.substack.com/pub/lexiconartist Book : https://bookshop.org/p/books/you-ll-never-believe-me-a-life-of-lies-second-tries-and-other-stuff-i-should-only-tell-my-therapist-kari-ferrell/21356907 Hosted, Executive Produced & Edited By Ian Bick: https://www.instagram.com/ian_bick/?hl=en https://ianbick.com/ Presented by Tyson 2.0 & Wooooo Energy: https://tyson20.com/ https://woooooenergy.com/ Buy Merch: https://convictclothing.net/collections/convict-clothing-x-ian-bick Timestamps: 00:00:00 From Salt Lake City to Seoul: A Transnational Story 00:07:19 Navigating Identity and Adoption 00:14:53 Reclaiming and Owning Your Narrative 00:22:09 Breaking the Mold: Choosing Entrepreneurial Paths Over College 00:30:59 Strategies of Check Kiting and Grifting 00:36:02 Seeking Accountability and Past Regrets 00:43:05 Viral Scam Story and 'The Hip Grifter' 00:51:05 Journey Through the Prison System 00:58:08 Supportive Family During Adversity 01:04:45 Embracing Prison Stories and Overcoming Stigma 01:11:44 Navigating the Ethics of Storytelling and Media Manipulation 01:17:56 Misrepresentation in Media Reporting 01:25:24 Life in Minimum Security Prison 01:32:22 Breaking Free from a Normal Life to Share My Story 01:39:39 Committing to Your Passion and Believing in Yourself 01:47:13 The Power of Author Engagement on Book Sales 01:53:38 Episode Conclusion and Farewell Powered by: Just Media House : https://www.justmediahouse.com/ Creative direction, design, assets, support by FWRD: https://www.fwrd.co Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Carrie, welcome to Locked in. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, thanks to my good friend, Jed, for messaging me and say, you've got to have this girl on. He sent me your book release and your Instagram and I message you, shot my shot, and now here we are. Here we are. Shout out, Jed. Yeah, thanks for responding. Yeah.

We're talking to how not everyone in your position responds. So, you know, I got to thank you for that. You're welcome. But what position is that? I just feel like it's the female influencer type that just doesn't necessarily respond, you know? I'm too self-absorbed to not be looking at every single message. I feel like that's important.

I look at every message. You don't know what it's going to be your next relationship, business venture, guest. I get 90% of my good guest just from looking at the DMs. Check those DMs, people. You never know when Ian's going to be up in them. Yeah, exactly. I'm not really the person that, like, messages people first, like, specifically, like, woman for like that type of thing.

because I just feel like then it's just weird because a lot of the people are like fans and you don't want to like breach that like trust and also I don't know I don't want to come off as creepy so I just let them message me that's my tactic. Totally. There's an etiquette to it for sure. Yeah. But Instagram I always say it's the best dating app. Yeah. The best dating app and also like the best way to really go in on someone like to like discover who they are or at least who they think they are. Yeah.

Which is its own category. I don't know. I discovered more about you on Google than. on your Instagram. But what's true? Your Instagram, you're right. So where did you grow up? Where are you from? I grew up in Salt Lake City, Utah, by way of Seoul Korea. So I am adopted, transracial, transnational, my parents, and my entire family, and pretty much everyone I knew growing up was a white person.

Salt Lake City. It kind of goes without saying. Yeah, and you grew up a very certain lifestyle and different compared to most people. Yes. So I grew up Mormon, a member. of the Church of Latter-day Saints. And it was just as oppressive and crazy as you, as most people imagine it to be. Were both parents Mormon? So interestingly enough, my family, when I was adopted, I was actually adopted when my family lived in Phoenix, Arizona. And when I was about two years old, the Mormon missionaries came knocking on the door. And they were like, you know, do you have a moment to talk about your Lord and Savior Jesus Christ?

And my parents were like, a moment, we have an entire lifetime. Come on in. And so they converted to the church and then we moved to Salt Lake. So what was nuts is that we were the only members of our extended family who were Mormon. And so the rest of my family, justifiably thought that we were insane. Wow. Because, yeah. Was that common for people to convert like that?

Like, where you looked at was your family looked upon and a weird outcast type of way? Almost the opposite, right? Because it was like, oh, these people chose to be a part of this more so than obviously if you're born into it. It was a double-edged sword for sure. But if anything, it's looked on. Yeah, it's more of a positive thing. And you got, it's interesting in your case.

It's you and your parents were both learning it at the same time, essentially, whereas some kids are born into that and it's like forced upon. them. Totally. And my family, you know, so I, this was in the early 90s. And my family, they had just adopted me. And, you know, this was pre-reddit, pre-Cora, pre-internet forum. And I think they were really looking for community. They wanted to have a place that helped them to, you know, foster raising children. And, you know, I mean, the one thing, not the one thing, but a thing that I will give to the Mormons is they're obviously very much about community.

And so I think that was a big reason that they decided to do that is that they were like, oh, this is built in community. Did your parents have to change jobs when they moved? No, they didn't. And so we relocated, and it was for the church. but my dad also had had a job opportunity. So it really just, it worked out. And of course, they saw that as being, you know, like, ordained from the heavens.

Did they have good jobs? They had very middle class jobs, like very lower middle class, which is what and how I grew up. So my dad is a supervisor at a grocery store, a big chain. And then my mom at the time was a waitress. and then became a nurse later on. But yeah, it was very just, I mean, they were kind of, yeah, you know, they were just very normal people. Did they teach you about like money or finer things in life, like just anything in that kind of

realm? So the way that you asked that question, I could tell you meant like positive. Did they teach me positive things about money? Well, not even just positive, but just like what gave you that sense of wanting more maybe? Yeah, it's a good question. I think that I was taught to live beyond my means. And this is by, in no way, I had a great childhood. And my parents raised me with so much love in our household.

And I think that though as a person who was adopted and someone who is seen maybe as being quote unquote saved, right, I was spoiled. I got everything I ever wanted whether or not we could actually afford it. And so then joining the church, which is a big part of it is paying tithing, right? So it's 10% of everything that you earn. And that's obviously not specific to the Mormon church. But one thing that is is that you will be roasted. Like you will be like publicly flamed for not paying your tithing.

whether that be like through the gossip mill or what have you. So I grew up, you know, watching my parents write these post-dated checks. And for younger people, it's funny when I was writing my book, I was like, oh, I need to like explain what checks are. They're basically pieces of paper that are meaningless that you can say are worth X amount of money. And something that happened is that you could write, okay, I give you a check, but I'm not going to have money in my account until next Friday. I'm going to post-date it. I'm going to say, you can't cash this until this date. And so I grew up seeing my parents do that for their tithing, you know, because they were like, we have to give 10% to the church. Otherwise, we're not going to heaven. But we don't have this now. So I think that throughout all of those things, not blaming them, of course, for my actions, but I just had a really skewed, fucked up idea of the impermanence and permanence of money. How old were you when they told you you were adopted? I always knew because I look like I do and they look like they do.

And so they always wanted me to be prepared, right, for how to respond to kids who are like, why don't you look like your parents? And so the response, though, especially again, being so ingrained in this religion, was, oh, well, because, you know, God made me extra special. You know, like, I, yeah, it was a lot of, like, white saviordom. And I grew up thinking that I was being saved from, you know, a place where it was like I would have dirt floors, no electricity, you know, couldn't have running water. And then it was like, wait, I was born in South Korea, which, you know, I mean, at the time had like the, I think it was like the 10th highest GDP in the world. So it was never this third world.

I should rephrase this. Korea definitely at times had been a third world country, but at the time of my existence, it was not. And so I just grew up always thinking that I had been given this incredible opportunity, you know, that I legit had been saved. And part of my process of just learning about myself and everything is that you can feel multiple ways about the same thing. Because I am very grateful that I was adopted. I love my family. I love my life. I can't imagine it any other way. But I can also be confused and upset about how things, you know, unfurled. And, you know, no one asks to be born. But you kind of add in the layers and the complications of, you know, not knowing really who you are in a lot of ways. But yeah, you can feel, you can feel many different things.

Did you ever find out, like, your background where you came from the family, all of those dynamics, or you never really got into that? So interestingly enough, and this could be, I mean, fodder for an entire podcast, but specifically with adoptions in the 80s and 90s from Korea, they, I make the joke that's not really a joke, that my whole existence could be considered a scam. because adoption at the time babies were really used as currency. So a lot of it was born out of, you know, like the Korean War and, you know, just relations between the U.S. and that part of the world. But then there were a lot of instances where, you know, these U.S. troops were going over there and then having babies with these, you know, with Korean women and then coming back to the U.S. obviously without the women or the babies. And from there it kind of escalates. to a point where there are just so many cases. And I feel like people think I'm being hyperbolic,

but like there are so many cases where people, these, you know, single unwed mothers, which there's a real stigma around that, were basically coerced into giving their children up for adoption. And so I, to answer your question, I don't really, I can't get that much information. The adoption agency that I was adopted through no longer exists. And I've done research and there have been people who have spent a lot of time and money and resources in going to Korea and trying to find their biological parents and just, I mean, I don't want to say it's wasted, but they don't, they come up short or they find things out that they would rather not know. And I'm like, I have, I've created enough trauma for myself. I don't need to add.

I don't need to add that like additional layer. And there's probably no way for your parents, the actual parents to find out about you because you have a different last name now and everything, right? Sure. And that's the other thing is, I mean, I think that a lot of, a big part of what happens in these instances is that the record keeping was basically nil. Or, you know, a lot of times it's like, oh, there was a fire and all of the records went up in flames.

And it's like, the fuck it, you know, like the fuck they did. There's no way that those ever existed. So I think it goes both ways. I think that there's a lack of information for the adoptees and for the adopters and for the people who, you know, put their kids up for adoption. How would people describe you as a kid, like your closest friends in middle school, high school? Yeah. I think I've always been out there, right? Like, I, well, first of all, like, I've always looked different.

And then I never fit into the mold of like the perfect little Mormon child, like physically, mentally all of the above. I think that a way, the way that I've always been described is that I'm super talkative. I'm very outgoing and I'm funny. And all of those things really came out of the fact that I was like, okay, kids are cruel, right? Like adults are too. People just like they speak without thinking, but like especially being bullied as a kid. It was like, all right, I from a very early age realized that I wanted to be the one to make fun of myself first because that takes the power away from, you know, the bullies and the people who are saying shit.

And also, I was way fucking funnier. So like, I think that the reason that I am the way that I am is, yeah, because I was just like. like, I'm going to get to this first. Yeah, I kind of compare that to what we do now, like putting our, you know, like what else could someone say about a you or I when all of our bad stuff's out there? Totally. And for you, does it feel like in ways this kind of like fucked up armor where it's like the worst things that have ever been said about us have already been said.

And at the time, at least for me, a lot of it was true. And so now I'm like, okay, people can say whatever. they want, I've already heard it. But also, I know that I'm not that kind of person anymore. So it gives me this weird, I don't know, I don't know if that's ego or what it can be chocked up to. But do you get that? If you're still using nicotine the old-fashioned way, you're missing out. Lucy Breakers are here to change the game 100% pure nicotine, completely tobacco-free, and packed with a flavor capsule surprise inside each pouch. Just pop the capsule to unleash a burst of extra flavor and hydration whenever you need it.

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And here comes the fine print. Lucy products are only for adults of legal age and every order is age verified. Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical. Yeah, I mean, I use it as a tool and I look at it if I never talked about it and owned it. Me and you wouldn't be sitting here right now. I wouldn't have what I have now. You know, I wouldn't have anything.

Yeah. And that was specifically talking about the moments people would make fun of me for. I remember working at Whole Foods and guys would be like, oh, that's a kid that went to prison. And that hurt. I was like embarrassed by that. I don't want to talk about that. I would hate any connotation with that. And now I'm the kid that's on TikTok talking about what it's like, you know, to be in prison or be a felon or anything like that.

I just own it, you know? Yeah. And there's so much power in reclaiming your own narrative, right? and like no one else can tell your story in like in the way that you can yourself um yeah i find it it's so true i mean yeah and and i don't know how else to be you know like i think going back to your question i've always been again this is at odds i think with who people think that i am and quite possibly who i who i actually was but i've always been pretty forthright not necessarily in, you know, honest intentions or what I'm saying, but I think that I've always put myself

out there in the same ways. It's just like, like you said, channeling that energy toward the better things, not the, yeah, not the shit that I was doing before. Did you follow the Mormon religion all the way through high school? So I stopped believing. I started questioning when I was like 11, 12, And then I guess I would say I officially left the church when I was like 15, 14, 15. But in Utah, it's crazy because it's like you, if you're not Mormon, you're really putting yourself in a position where like people won't let their kids, you know, like I remember not being allowed to play with non- Mormon kids. Like I couldn't go over to their homes like based on the fact literally that they just, that they

weren't Mormon. There was nothing necessarily outside of that that was known about these people. And so a lot of it was just like your social circle is built around it. So, you know, you're going to, you know, you can't not be in a lot of ways. Yeah, I had a kid on my bus. Like you would invite him over all of these things. He didn't get a cell phone until like way later on in life like senior year. And he, yeah, he wouldn't go to people's houses or it was just very strange.

But I didn't know much about it. And I could understand why he would get bullied or teased because of that. but he was, he very, he very much owned his lifestyle and his family and the culture because he believed it in himself. But that could be hard for young kids too, especially you if you were in both, you know, adopted and Mormon too. Yeah. And kids just don't know what that is and that's how they react. They don't know what it is. And it's also like I, again, was like always sort of the, I mean, yeah, it was always the person I am now. So one thing about the church that we, was really hard for me is that because I am, I am like a queer person. I'm a, there like just so many

things I was made to feel very guilty about, like my whole existence. So then you add in the like, aren't you so grateful that you were saved with the like, well, everything about you is wrong. I just had a, I had no idea who I was. I did not have really any sense of identity. And part of why I ended up doing what I was doing, which was writing bad checks to friends and family in the beginning, was because I was addicted to the sense of belonging and not being forgotten. And yeah, you can see that as like an addiction to attention, but it goes deeper than that. It was like I, you know, it's kind of like adopted kid abandonment issues 101, where I'm like, like I just want to be remembered. And, you know, unfortunately at the time, I was like, I don't give

a fuck if it's, yeah, because people like me or if it's because I've just made a mark on them somehow. Um, and, you know, again, I'm not negating that I chose to do these things, but I do wonder if I had had more of a community. And, you know, this is pre, it's not pre internet, but pre like accessibility, right? So, like, You just didn't see people who looked like me or like there was no representation. And so, which subsequently means that I just was like raised as a white person and essentially thought that I was. Like even still to this day, like, you know, my thought process oftentimes, I guess, is more so like that than it would be like a person who's raised in a traditional Korean home, you know. So there's a lot of like figuring it out and I continue to do so.

Of course we all do. Yeah. In high school, did you have college plans, career plans? What did that look like for you? Totally. I, you know, always thought of myself as being, yeah, I mean, I make the joke that my parents are like the widest Asian parents because I played the piano from an early age. Like I was super studious. Like I, you know, did all of the things that one is supposed to do.

And I wanted to be a veterinarian. So I actually went to when I was in high school, we had a program where you could graduate high school with your associate's degree in veterinary sciences. So I started to do that. And I was a vet tech for a couple of years. And I thought that's what I wanted to do. And then realized, like, oh, I don't love being like, shout on. No kink shaming.

Okay, you do you. I was like, I don't want to come home from work every day, like being covered in like blood and excrement. And like, yeah, I was getting paid for it, but, you know, check please. And so, yeah, I, academia was like very much a focus. And it was something that, you know, my mom went to college. My dad did not. And so it was very much seen as like, you know, a. Again, they were, in many ways, again, they did provide me with this incredible life. But it was like, you have to go to college. Like, you've got to be a doctor, a lawyer, whatever it is. I was not, I don't know how it was for you, but I was not really ever encouraged to follow creative pursuits. Like, and I've always been a storyteller, a natural storyteller, for better or worse. And I think maybe if I had been encouraged more to get into creative writing earlier on,

or like some of these, you know, just other things that, you know, my life definitely would have had a different course. Yeah, I mean, the time period I was growing up in, there was social media, but there wasn't reels, videos, clips of this, like streaming and all of that, the creators, influencers. The only things you would hear about that are entrepreneurial or if your parents own businesses or like the Mark Zuckerberg's, the big people, the Bill Gates, where it's like that's another level, you're crazy. for thinking like that. And obviously I thought that way because that's what got me into trouble

because I had that big mindset. But everyone in high school and even middle school is college, got to do this. You got to do this to get into college. And that was the way my mother was raised. So she had that and my dad was raised that way, but he also owned a business. So when, you know, we made up my mind that I'm not going to go to college, they were kind of accepting of that. And, you know, maybe not as much throughout like the prison years and everything, but to see the way it turned out, you know, it worked out for the best. Well, I think your point, too, of that you always thought beyond, you know, where you were and the position in life that you were. And I think that that's so much of it where, you know, I now and have lived in New York for a really long time,

and I always knew that I needed to get out of Utah for, well, ultimately I had to get out of Utah, because I literally ran myself out of that town. But I always knew, like, that I was meant for, I guess, so to speak, you know, bigger things. And, yeah, I mean, congrats to you. Thank you. We did it. Yeah, both of us. We did it.

I mean, I always just seen the bigger picture. Like, whenever I start something, no matter what it is, like, say it's a relationship or a business or this, I see the bigger picture of where it could be. And it might be delusional because it might be, like, wrong place, wrong. time, wrong person, wrong idea, but at least I see it. You know, like when I started the club, I saw the biggest acts playing on that stage with the lights and the sound, just a terrible business model. When I started the podcast, I envisioned this room we're in, you know, interviewing, you know, people that went to prison and whatnot. Me, hot dog handjobs, hot dog handjobs in the flesh. Hot dog handjobs in the flesh. That's funny. But yeah, I, you know, it's like,

I try to think of things of that we are where we are now, you know, not necessarily like in spite of our upbringing, but like the, and the things that have happened. But yeah, we, it's again, going back to exactly what you said, which is reframing and looking at what you have and the assets and the tools and the resources and figuring out how to make that work for yourself. So when do things start taking a turn for you? And how old were you about that time? Yeah. So when I was in high school, I started to question the church. And again, in Utah, you know, like there's literally curriculum that you're being taught in public schools that is very intertwined with the Mormon religion. And so I started skipping some of the classes.

It's called seminary. And so I started skipping these classes because I, like, first of all, they can't answer my questions. I was always, you know, I don't want to say I was always anti-authority, but I was always like, I have a question and I'm going to ask it. And oftentimes, they didn't know how to answer. And a lot of it was rooted in, and, you know, I don't want to be that person that's always coming back to, like, race, but, you know, Mormons had scriptures that were legitimately, it said verbatim, like, if you have a darker skin color, you are, like, you're dark and loathsome. Like, they, for a really long time, believed that, you know, Black people, people of color were cursed because they were sinners.

And that's like the origin of that skin tone. Nothing to do with the equator. And so I would ask questions like that. And like, first of all, the people who are teaching these classes who are responsible for these things, they're not equipped to answer those questions. They don't know the answers. So oftentimes I would just be shut down, you know? and it's like, go pray on it.

Like, you need to have this conversation with God. And so I tried that. And lo and behold, like, God didn't answer. And so I started skipping those classes. And I started skipping those classes with the other bad kids. And I mean, again, like, I'm not making excuses for this, but part of our activities were, like, you know, it turned in, like, petty theft. It was like, let's go to the grocery store and steal shit. And then it kind of became this, like, let's make a game of it.

who can steal the smallest thing, the largest thing, the most expensive thing, the cheapest thing. And so it was this group of people who we were just staving off our boredom. But it was also like our, yeah, it was like the quintessential just like, you know, disgruntled, angsty teenager acting out. And the thing is that most of those people stopped at that, but I did not. And so I escalated. and then I was like 18, 19 is really when I started to get into the habit of writing these bad checks. And my whole thing was, you know, it's hard for people to understand and get it.

And I was never like plotting. I was never sitting there being like, okay, so tomorrow I'm going to go tell Ian that I, you know, need money. I can't get it out of my bank account. And then I'm going to write him a bad check and then I'm going to write this other person to bad check and da-da-da-da-da-da. It was like I was doing all of that without planning. It's funny because I, you know, people are like, I've heard often like, oh, she was too smart for her own good. And it was like, clearly you did not pay attention to what I was doing because it was the stupidest shit imaginable. Like I, you know, like there's nothing smart about writing bad checks,

at least in the way that I was doing it. And yeah, the thing was like, Again, it was the attention part of it. It was the, it was the like ingratiating myself into this group of people. And, you know, a lot of it, it's like you look at these books that are like, you know, how to win friends and influence people. And it's like from a business perspective, it's like, oh, you know, this is amazing. People, like, I was using a lot of the same, I guess you can call them skills. But, for these shitty nefarious reasons. So it was like, I knew that by asking someone, hey, like, will you do this favor for me? That that makes them like you more. And then that makes you, in turn, want to help them more, right? Like, it's this manipulation that everyone does, but I was just keenly aware of the mechanics of it. And so, yeah, it, it, I, and then I got this.

money and I had a job at the time when I first started. So it wasn't even sure I was like a young kid so who can't use more money. But I was really like spending everything that I was getting that I was stealing on like taking friends out to dinner, buying them gift. Sure, I definitely bought myself stuff too. But it was this cycle of how do I keep these people around me and how do I get them to continue to like me? And I mean, you know, looking back on it now, it's like, well, I could have just been myself. I was myself, but I could have just been me without the shitty parts, you know? And I think that would have been enough.

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Ends 42725 at 11.59 p.m. Eastern Time. Now, who are you taking the money from? Are you check kiting where it's like the bank and you're putting into another account you own and you're getting that money? Or are you saying, hey, Ann, let me borrow a thousand. I don't have any cash on me. Here's a check. And then you steal from your friend when the check bounces. Well, and ultimately it kind of becomes stealing from both the banks and the friend, right?

But that's, yeah, the latter. So I would be like, you know, for whatever reason, my bank account is not allowing me to take money out of the ATM, but I can still write checks, you know? Can I write you a check for 400 or 500 bucks? I'll give you 100 of it for helping me out, whatever. There was always like an incentive, right, outside of just like want to be a pal. And yeah. And so checks, you know, take a while to bounce. Back then.

Yeah. So the goal for me was always by the time this check bounces and I get that text of like what's going on, I can be like, oh my God, I'm so sorry. I don't know. Here's the money. no harm, no foul. And that did happen sometimes. But more often than not, I did not have that money,

or I was having to steal money from other people to make up for, you know, it becomes the cycle. And you're using that money to take them out and the lavish lifestyle. And this is where like the term grifting comes into play. Yeah. And it's funny, though, that like the lavish lifestyle, because I was like taking them to like, I'm like, yeah, we're going to go to Benny Hana. But that for your age, yeah.

That's lavish. It's true. And also for the audience, there's no Venmo cash app back then. And, you know, it's kind of ironic years later there would be those things and there was ways because I used them. When I needed money, like Venmo used that and cash app and PayPal would have like a e-check option. So you could send the e-check to someone, but they would get the money instantly before they fix this feature. So if you sent them an e-check for like, say, $4,000, they would get that right then and there. But then I would eventually bounce and credit it back because your account was.

would be overdrawn. Yeah, yeah. So the same check-hiting thing they did with Venmo and PayPal and stuff. You know, it's kind of hard to be like, I know, I'm like, fool me once. Like, come on, Venmo, PayPal. Like, I don't know, are you not just asking for it? Yeah, they definitely had a, they lost a ton of money in the beginning because the banks were, they wouldn't take it back from the people they sent, it got sent to.

It got, the banks would just try to re-cash a, like a check, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's what happened. Yeah. And it was crazy. But so that was your period of time, you know, that it was more common and casual. Like if you said, hey, let me get a check now. You can be like, what?

Yeah. My lawyer asked me for a check the other day. Put it in the mail. I'm like, dude, come on. Can I wire you the money? Yeah, you're also like, where do I get one of them? Do I have one of those? I actually ordered checks for my landlord because they started hitting me the $15 fee a month for the wire transfer.

I was like, you know what? Let me just do checks. but I don't even write it because I get so lazy. So I just wire them the money and pay the extra 15 bucks. So now I have a stack of checks. I guess I'll use for the lawyer. I love that you're like, I'm going to stick it to the man. I'm like, but actually this is so inconvenient.

I have to like put it in the mail. Well, because it adds up. And the wire transfer fees. And that's fucked up. You're already paying them. Yeah. I think I paid two grand last year in bank fees. Yeah.

It's crazy when you add it up and you do all your own, because I do all my own accounting now ever since going through everything when I did no accounting. Now I'm like a spreadsheet, Liz. See, people can change. Yeah, see, exactly. And you see wherever, like subscriptions, like I'm paying like $8 or $900 a month in subscriptions, but they're tools I need for my business.

Sure. But I will, and I'll go on the record saying this. So obviously not okay that I stole money from people. I really don't feel bad about stealing money from banks. I'm going to be straight up. I mean, yeah. I also stole money from. check cashing places, like predatory, like loan shark places. I will not say that I encourage

that by any means, but they can definitely go fuck themselves. I definitely, especially in this day and age, I'm like, yeah, no part of me feels bad about taking money from banks. They take money from people all the time. And back then, I don't think they had those checkers, right, where they could kind of understand how much money you had in your account. Like, you could go there with a check like at casinos everything and and they would give you that money that's on the check exactly so interestingly enough and i'm kind of fast forwarding here but the charges that were brought against me that i did have some civil suits right where it was like the individuals that my victims uh and i don't use that term lightly people are like oh wow like you you call them that i'm like but that is what they

were like and are like i i'm so grateful and fortunate because some of these people are still my friends to this day and some people I've reconnected with. And, but, you know, I don't, my thing is, like, accountability. I'm, like, almost aggressively accountable for what I did. I don't want anyone to think that I'm trying to be like, oh, it wasn't that bad when it comes to the people themselves. Like, you know, the money is one thing, but it's like, what did I do to people and their ability to have, like, trusting relationships in the future? Like, did I destroy this person's life in, you know, financial ways? Probably not. Um, because it really wasn't that much money. But did I destroy them in the sense that like they're skeptical of life now? Like quite possibly. And,

uh, yeah. So I definitely, you know, I, yeah, I do not encourage that behavior in any way. But the charges that I ultimately got pinned for, that was all. those were all the banks filing those charges and coming after me. And, you know, the state of Utah, that wasn't necessarily the friends or, you know, victims or people that I, the individuals that I took things from. But yeah, I, the, especially the loan charge places and whatever. So, so what happens in Utah, like, how long does that go on for before you leave? and what's the catalyst that gets you to leave? Yeah, I mean, the catalyst really was, I'm not kidding,

like I ran myself out of that town, especially because, so Utah's quite small, Salt Lake City is quite small anyway, but then if you start to get into any sort of subcultures or like niche, you know, hobbies or, you know, whatever, like for me it was music, an art, that pool gets smaller and smaller of the people who are, a willing to be friends with you or around you. Like so, you know, there was part of me that was like, I just want to start fresh.

I just want to, you know, start anew. And I always knew that I wanted to go to a larger city anyway. So I was like, now is the time to move to New York. Little did I know when I moved to New York that I was actually, quote unquote, absconding from justice because I had all these warrants for my arrest. So I moved to New York. I am playing on the straight and narrow for the most part for several months, like six, seven months. And then, you know, New York is an expensive place. I thought that I was going to be able to get a job, you know, pretty immediately. I had always been good at getting jobs, I guess you can say. And so I was just like very cocky, too. I was, you know, 20, 21. So I also thought that I knew everything. and that I would be able to just kick the door down and start my life and be good to go. You know, fast forward a few months and I'm like, wow, this place is fucking expensive.

Who knew? What do I do? How do I pay rent? And so I fell back into my old ways of stealing. It wasn't necessarily writing the bad checks, but it was finding people. And these people typically ended up being like white trust fund dudes at these bars and things. And again, throughout all of this, I'm still me. So I'm still like, I'm always like, why, you know, wouldn't I have just, like, got into, like, sex work or something?

Like, why wasn't I, why didn't I go to fancy hotels and try to become, like, a sugar baby, you know? There was something weird about it, though, where I was like, I need to, like, shit where I eat. Like, I still need these people, these guys to be people that I would be interested in. Like, I'm not going to, in ways I was, like, very authentic to the point where, like shooting myself in the foot because it's like, again, not saying that this necessarily would have been better, but if I was like targeting people who could maybe, I guess, could be seen as like being able to afford it, you know, arguably better than meeting these people who I thought had money in random bars in Williamsburg, Brooklyn. But I would send them these,

I would write these like stupid fucking notes on napkins and things where it would say, like the one that I gave you an example of earlier, which is I want to give you a hand job with my mouth. So like, this is my dumb sense of humor, you know, and coming out and I would like write them on these napkins and then like, you know, walk up, saunter up to this guy at the bar and like hand him this note or like slide it, you know, whatever across the table. And then just like disappear into the night. And then I would like watch him open up this napkin. And be like, what the fuck? and then look at it and then laugh. And I'd be like, okay. And then I'd reappear and, you know, we would strike up a conversation and more often than not, it would end up with me like going home

with him and then walking out of his place with like, you know, 40 bucks or a metro card or an iPod or just kind of whatever. It was like a crime of opportunity, really. It was just kind of like whatever was around. I wasn't necessarily like doing the bad check thing to these people. But I was doing this a lot. And New York is bigger than Salt Lake, but still, you know, once you start narrowing into these subcultures, you know, you become a known figure. And I got my dream job at the time at Vice Magazine. And, you know, I always wanted to be a writer. I always wanted to be someone who, who kind of was seen as like this taste maker, right? A lot of what I was lying about when I was younger was things that, it's so stupid,

but it was like things that, yeah, make you, that made me think that I seemed cooler in whatever way. So it was like, oh, I work for this music festival company or like whatever, like things that you were doing for real. That's the kind of stuff that I would lie about. And again, if I would have just put that energy into like actually creating it for myself, like who knows what I could have done but I yeah so I was like this you know I'm me I'm funny I'm whatever um get this job and then I worked for vice for like all of two weeks and you know it was this thing where I was like I've done it I can stop doing all this shady shit I can get this is what I moved here for right and I'm on the bus going I don't remember where but in Brooklyn I'm on the bus

and I'm, you know, with my, like, original iPhone scrolling through and all of a sudden I see my mugshot pop up, like on, as I'm scrolling through like a New York news website. And so back in Utah, I've been arrested a couple of times. And, you know, there was no part of me that was like, oh, my God, that person looks like me. Like, I'm deeply familiar with my own mugshot, you know? So I'm like, oh, fuck. And what had happened is that Vice wrote an article that was like, before you hire someone, make sure that they are not on a most wanted list. And I was just like, what is happening?

And yeah, when I said that I was absconding from justice, I had these warrants for my arrest that I, you know, surely I had to have known that they existed. but it was just like, again, there was no thought behind any of this. So again, like the idea of me plotting, it was like, no, I was just operating. Like, there was not a lot of thought behind any of this, like any of it. So I'm like, oh my God, well, all right, maybe this will die down. It did not die down. It, you know, this is 2008, 2009. So we had Twitter.

And that was kind of it. Facebook, you know, existed obviously MySpace. But it really became the first big viral scam story. And the New York Observer picked the story up from Vice. And they coined, they gave me the moniker, the hipster grifter. And, I mean, props to them because that's fucking catchy. Like, talk about good marks. marketing. I like it. I mean, at this point, it's like something that I don't love it, but like,

you know, you kind of have to own it. It's like, it is a part of me. But it became this huge story. And I remember it was also this thing where now it's like everyone's a grifter. It's used all the time. But back then, no one knew what the word meant because it's like this old timey, like word from the 20s. And I remember there were articles that were like, this is what a grifter is. And the story just went gangbusters. Like, it was crazy. And there was a website called Gawker, which you may be familiar with.

It don't longer exist, but they were obsessed with me. And they had this thing called Gawker Stalker. And it was basically like a tip line that people, that you could be like, I saw her in the park. like on this day at this time. So there was like a literal like manhunt for me. And so I'm just like, what the fuck am I going to do? So I was hiding out in an apartment in Bedstay in Brooklyn and literally like not leaving the house. If I did, it was like straight up like baseball hat like sunglasses. I'd like scamper to the bodega to like get my 25 cent bagel or whatever it was. And I was literally in hiding for a few weeks.

And, you know, it got to the point where it's like it, I just now I get it a little more. But at the time, I was like, why does anyone care about this? Why does anyone care about me? None of this is interesting. Like, what is up with this? But a lot of it was like this reporting that was like, you know, it was fun, to be honest. It was a fun story for people to follow because, again, I'm not like this thing. as person. I'm just like this Asian girl with tattoos that was like, you know, hopping around from

bar to bar. And so I remember, like, you know, like people were like dressing up as me for Halloween, like the napkins and stuff that I was writing notes on were being auctioned off on eBay. There were like wheat paste like posters going up all over the place of like, have you seen her? But there were a lot of people who were honestly just like fans. And that's something that I, to the, this day struggle with and I have a problem like I don't think anything I did should be glorified but people saw it as this like stick it to the man's story right this like Robin hood anti-folk hero um thing and so yeah after I wasn't hiding for a while and just watching this explode I was like I clearly can't live like this um forever

what am I going to do? And so I ultimately ended up turning myself in in Philadelphia. I went from New York to Philly because I was like, maybe the media won't follow me there. Of course they did. But yeah, and so then I was in a Philly jail for like 30 days. And then the state of Utah, like, con-aired me. like I was extradited from Philadelphia to Utah on a commercial flight. I always thought, I thought it was legit like on air where you're like, you know, you'd just be on a plane like in a cargo, like in like a cargo hole with only other people being sent away. No, I was literally like on a commercial like American flight or whatever flanked by two detectives handcuffed on in the back of a plane.

like in the shitty seat, like right next to the toilet, like all the way in the back. And they had given me this ridiculous, like, oversized, like 90s windbreaker that they had caught a hole in the pocket so that I could remain cuffed, but like no one could see. And that was obviously not for my comfort or my safety. That was to not like freak the other passengers out, which fair. I get it. But yeah, I took that flight back. And then I, I did the rest of my time in a privately owned Mormon institution. And yeah, I met a lot of fascinating, interesting, strong people there who, like, I, you know, obviously being incarcerated as an experience.

For me, it was, I guess you could say rehabilitative, but it had nothing to do. do with the actual like carceral part of it. But it had everything to do with all of the people and all of the women who I met there and hearing all of their stories and then also seeing how they were treated and just seeing the, I guess like the disparities between, you know, all of these different groups of people and how some were treated more poorly than others and, you know, all the things that you pick up on. And yeah, I mean, it was a wild time. I was part of a riot. I was, yeah, I would love to ask you about your experiences because I feel like oftentimes we're both sort of referred to as these people where it's like, oh, well, they don't seem like

your average, you know, criminal or felon. They don't look like. you're, you know, the person who would do this kind of thing. Like, what were your experiences? Mine was pretty bad. I mean, I had a rough time. They all thought I was a sex offender in the federal prison system. Yeah, they call it showmos because I had the glasses and the feds are like very political. And it was tough.

I had a tough time. Yeah. I went on the actual con air with all the inmates. Did you? Yeah, they put me on con air and it's exactly like it's kind of like the movie and there's like duck tape on the plane and on the wings and you're sitting next to murderers and you're like black boxed and chained and shackled and given a cheese sandwich and a little mini water bottle or juice and it was miserable.

Where were you going from? I went, I was, I started a detention center in Rhode Island when my bond got revoked and then I was in Brooklyn at the MDC and then I was at Fort Dix. I was in Philly at the Metropolitan Detention Center. Yep. And then went back to Brooklyn, went to Dambury, the town over from here, was there until a guard reported that I dated this cousin. So they threw me in the shoe. I was in the shoe.

Oh, my God. That's how I lost a lot of weight. I was almost 300 pounds when I went in. And I lost like 100 pounds in prison because, you know, just in solitary. And then from there, I went on Conair all the way to Chicago. And then I did a year in Wisconsin. Holy fuck. Yep.

And then a male prison guard tried to rate me in the kitchen. Oh, my God. I know. Jesus. But that whole prison experience literally built this, you know, just sharing those stories. And I always thought my redemption arc would, I wanted to own a nightclub again when I got out. I thought that would be the cool thing. Yeah.

Which is where I get like Billy McFarlane's angle from wanting to do all that. He's just kind of going about it the wrong way. But I thought that was going to be me. And it wasn't. So then I focused on pitching the story. And I thought, oh, you know, teenager owns a nightclub goes to prison. Really cool story. Didn't really work out.

And then, you know, little did I know is those actual crazy prison stories were the bread and butter. Yeah. Because, you know, it's not every day you have someone like me, you know, looking the way I look, talking the way I talk, but covered in tattoos and stuff on TikTok saying I went to prison. Yeah. My only regret is if I did it during COVID, I'd be a millionaire because that's what everything really blew up. For real. Yeah, but, hey, I got, I still got in. You're doing pretty well for yourself, I would say.

Yeah, no, I still got in a good time. It would be much harder if I started to do what I do now, you know, because the more content creators have come up. But also, I have a unique perspective that not everyone has because I'm not your typical inmate, just like you aren't your typical person. And that's why I think people related to orange is the new black. That's why that blew up. Yeah.

And it's also humanizing people, right? Your whole mission, very similar to mine, is helping to tell these other people's stories. Like, I am so grateful that I've been, well, first of all, that. I had access to for an amazing support network, right? People, family, friends who stood by me throughout all of this, who were like, yeah, she fucked up, but we believe that there's more to her than the worst mistake that she's made, right? And I also had access to resources, like mental health resources, just the things that a lot of people, like, I agree, we're not the typical prisoners. I am a firm believer that anyone, regardless of

of who they are, where they come from can get into trouble. But, you know, one thing that I know that I'm very privileged, that I'm very privileged to have the things to help me. And not everyone does. And so my mission is really to help people think about things in a different perspective. And, you know, why do we look at punishment the way that we do? Why can we not, you know, I just want to move the needle toward a more compassionate society. And so I really respect what you're doing because it's, yeah, it's the same, you know, cut from the same cloth.

Like, it's statistically everyone knows someone who has been imprisoned or part of the system. But people love to be like, oh, we support the underdogs. We love giving second chances. And it's like, do you though? Like it's so easy you should say that. But then where are we with, yeah, actually helping people to get to that point? Yeah, and we know, like, the media says they do, but they don't. You reach out to people's agents that, you know, you always get, like, I would try to get Mike the situation on the show, you know, for forever.

And his publicist keeps telling me that, oh, he's not doing press right now. And I know it's literally because of the whole I'm a felon thing. They're trying to probably step away from the crime thing. But he has a book about, you know, going to prison in a... addiction. Yeah. So I bet you I would put money on it. If I'm ever in the room with him and I asked, hey, did you ever get any requests from your publicist? He would literally say, no. Yeah, I never made it to him. Never made it to him. It's so interesting too because there is such a stigma. I'm like, what other things are there in this world that have affected so many people where there's still such

a hard line between like, yeah, it being acceptable. or not. And so you really do have to work tenfold to, you know, prove yourself. And it's like, I mean, I don't want to speak for you, but for me, I'm like, I'm happy to do that work, but I really hope that it is showing people that people, yeah, what is our society if we're not willing to help support people, particularly because we are the ones putting folks in this position? You know, like, it's really fucking easy for people to say, well, then don't make, you know, like, don't make bad decisions. Don't make, don't be a bad person, whatever. But it's like, yeah, everyone knows or will most people know, unfortunately, what it's like to be one or two paychecks away from being like, fuck, how would I pay rent?

How would I get the money to pay for baby formula or, you know, diapers or whatever it is, food? like so I just really and I believe much like you it's like education through entertainment is where it's at like we have to be and that's why I love what you're doing as well just with like your social media it's like you make it engaging like we have to really capitalize on the fact that attention is such a hot commodity and there's not a lot of it to go around so I feel like I'm Some of the criticism that I hear is like, oh, well, she just wants to be famous or she just wants to be in front of a camera, whatever. And it's like, okay, sure, but I, you know, that's like the means to the end. Like, sorry, I can't help it if I'm fascinating.

If people want to look at me and listen to me, no. But like, really, it's like, well, this is a thing that I have. It's a resource that I have. And I'm going to use that to the best of my ability to try to create these opportunities for others. And if people want to, you know, say that I have an ego, then, I mean, so be it like, okay. Well, at least I'm using my ego for things that ultimately I hope will help to better people in general, like opportunities in society. But, you know, it's, yeah, I'm, I'm so happy to, like, that there are people like us who are working toward that. Because when the story broke out,

in New York City about you. What was your relationship with your parents and how they respond? Yeah. So my parents have stuck by me through it all. I mean, there were certainly periods of time where, like, I wasn't communicating with them because I was running a muck or, you know, whatever it was. But they always supported me. I mean, my parents were visiting me. They were writing me letters, sending me cards, putting money on my commissary, all of the things. And again, not a thing that everyone has. So I'm very, very, very grateful and fortunate that, you know, there were people who believed in me despite of everything and all of the times that I had lied to them. And, you know, they bailed me out like quite literally more than once. So, you know,

these were people who loved me to the point of like putting, you know, their home on the line. line. And, you know, I just try to make them proud of me every day. And the book that I wrote, you know, they're not like necessarily thrilled that I wrote a book, to be quite honest. Like, they're happy that I'm that I did it. And, you know, I'm sure they're happy that it's being received well. But it's not a thing that they were like stoked on that like I'm putting all us out there and like dredging it all up again because it was super traumatic for them. You know, they were having at the time reporters knocking on their door being like, do you know where she is? Like, where is your daughter? Why do you think she's like this? You know, do you think it's because

of the way that she was raised? Do you think it's because of all of these things? So they were being attacked as well. So I completely understand the sort of hesitancy, right, to bring all this up again. but they also respect me enough. I almost say that. They respect me and that it is my story to tell. And I was very mindful of while writing, you know, it's like it ultimately is a love letter to them. I say it many times, but like it's not a thing that they caused. Like it's not a thing that they did. It's so many other things that went into it. And, you know, my parents got. I love them. They're boomers. And so a lot of it is sort of this like everything comes back to them. And it's all like, where did I go wrong? What did we do? You know, and it's like, no, you really, you did everything to the best of your ability. And you did a great job. Like I really think that the one of the only reason, again, the support, but it's like I am where I am now, which I think is in a place where most people would unanimously say like the I and making. good decisions and like a productive member of society because of all of those things and how

I was raised and what they taught me. It just got really confusing and twisty-turny, you know, it was a it was a journey for sure. How much prison time did they end up giving you? So I did almost a year. So it wasn't to be honest, it wasn't, I mean, I think anytime, not for me in particular, but like just any time is too long. as far as like the way that things are structured now. But yeah, I mean it was far less. You did three. I got a three year sentence.

I did about 26 months and I did a year on house arrest. On house arrest. And then I had another two years of supervised release. So supervised release. It's like being on parole. Yeah. And the feds it was because it was a little kind of strict, but I could still travel and stuff.

The first year I was on house arrest. So that was tough. But then half the world was on house arrest during COVID. Were you kind of like, all right, level playing field? Yeah, that was for the last few months of my house arrest because I kept trying to get off early and they wouldn't let me. And then I finally get off and then COVID hits or like right before. So I was like, okay, this is good. You know, everyone's kind of like home.

And my roommates at the time would like throw parties and this so it worked out. But it did suck and it was embarrassing like wearing the ankle monitor and doing all this and dating and getting out there and being on Tinder for the first time and like doing all these things because I wasn't a influence. or a social media person. You know, I just had the people that followed me online. So, you know, now if someone were to search my name, the thing that comes up first is the podcast rather than the articles, you know. But back then, you searched my name, and this is before HBO Max and vice and stuff, it was just Ian Bick out of prison.

So if you're a woman and you're going and Googling me, what are you going to think? And there's only one side of the story out there. Yeah. What was your approach to dating? Were you like, listen, I'm going to be straight up. from the get or were you like... So I always played it to my advantage. So like when I went on Tinder, like my bio was like 90% like bad boy, 10% like hardware or something catchy like that.

And I would get people that would slide in literally say, hey, my college professor just presented about you in my class. There were a couple that they wouldn't find out until like after we hooked up and they see my ankle monitor on me. and then we probably didn't talk again. I would never tell people up front because I was embarrassed about prison, you know? But some people were just like attracted to that. Other people kind of knew the story. And then obviously more people than not stay away from it, you know? That's why like we were talking earlier about how like this area is so weird because like the people around here are just like so weird about that aspect.

Like they look at me as like this outcast like person that went to prison just because that's this area. but I go anywhere else and you're more like embraced and, you know, I'll put it this way. Like 99% of the women that slide in my DMs are from every other state other than Connecticut. It's no one from Connecticut, which is the crazy part. Yeah, you're like, wow, isn't the... Yeah, I mean, you've got a couple, but the most of it is from different states, you know? That's like a zone episode of like the Twilight Zone. Yeah.

It was that episode where that guy, all he wants to do is read and then like he has the opportunity and his glasses break. It's like, it's like that for you, but with dating. Yeah, no, I tell, um, are my partner managers at Spotify, I'm like, hey, you guys could put me on like funny comedian podcast because I'd make a great guest to talk about like dating as a felon. For real. For real. For real. For real. Like anything like that just to talk about it.

Because a lot of these big, you know, comedians and influencers, they always like make clips about people that went to prison or that, because everyone's fascinated about it. So I feel like it would be funny. I, you know, and it's interesting because it's like people, again, are so, they are. fascinated by it, but it's still like the stigma where it's like as long as they're separated from it, right? It's like they want to study you. But I, yeah, it's a weird thing when you're like so embraced for telling your story in certain areas. And but then when you still feel like I still, even though I totally own my story, obviously, you know, it is kind of this like nerve-wracking thing of when you first meet someone, whether or not it's like whatever kind of relationship.

relationship it is, whether it's friendship, like, you know, you're hooking up with whatever it is. It's like, oh, so is this a person? Like, do I tell them? Do I hold off? Like, is there, what's the approach? And it's like, that's a thing that I'm sure will follow me forever. And I am just happy that I am at a point in my life where for the most part, though, I'm like, no, I'm just going to be straight up about it. I'm like, this is who I am. This is part of my story. You know, I think about it kind of in the way of, like, people who are in recovery. It's like, there's always this thing where it's like, oh, well, you know, they went and joined, you know, they had to join AA or they like had to, you know, go to rehab or whatever.

And it's like, I get where that's coming from, but why are we saying it that way? Why isn't it like, wow, this person, like, acknowledged that they had a problem, wanted to take care of it in some way, shape, or form, and like, they're owning it and they're doing that. it's sort of the same perspective that I have around incarceration. It's like I'm not saying that, like, yeah, like not negating the crime part of it and like the fucked up decisions that have been made. But it's ultimately like how can we expect anyone to evolve if we're still making people feel so horrible about ultimately trying to get better? Yeah, I mean, I feel like if you're not. like a serial killer or like a sex offender, which it does happen.

I actually had very interesting perspective. A guy the other day got accused by his ex-wife of raping her. And it's a whole thing. He was in the military, lost everything, went to military prison, got out when dating, meets this woman who he brought with her to the interview. And he doesn't tell her anything because they were just hitting it off. And he's like, there's something I need to tell you. She's like, no, it's okay.

It's your past, whatever. they're in a long car ride on like their third or fourth date. It's like, hey, we really need to talk about this. And she's like, as long as you didn't kill anyone and a sex offender, it doesn't matter. Well, he was a sex offender, you know, but not for something that it wasn't a child. Like it's a very complicated situation. And, you know, it just she didn't judge him on that after because she already got to know that person. But like, that's a lot.

And people are very quick to judge that too. Totally. And like I think that's the thing is that we have to acknowledge to that the way that the system is set up is very much, I mean, yeah, there are things that happen to people that it's not the full story or that's ultimately what they get charged with or, you know, like that's what they end up copping to because that's sort of like what they have to. And again, like by no means am I like, this stuff is okay. So like, come correct people. But. Oh, I thought that's what you were doing. Yeah.

I'm like, listen, no, I'll just, I will stop it saying that it's okay to steal money from banks. I won't go further than that. Your agent's going to call you after this. I know. I have to say, like, surrounding yourself with good people. Like, I am so lucky that my team, like my agent, my publisher, all of these people have never really, you know, they've never tried to muzzle me before. And I think that it's a respect thing, obviously, but it's also like acknowledging that we are, we have business acumen. You know, we were talking about this a little bit before, but it's like so much of what I was doing before making, like, in, you know, writing these bad checks, spinning these fucking stories, positioning myself as being this thing that I'm not.

It's all marketing. And so after I got out, I just wanted to fade. into obscurity. Like, I did not want to have anything to do with the hipster grifter story. And so I became a digital marketing director. And that's literally what I did for, you know, a decade up until just a couple of years ago when I started my production company. But I, like, you know, it was a thing that I had so much shame around it. And, you know, it's like a very unique situation to be put in to be dragged publicly publicly in the way that we have been, right? Because as you were saying, like, it was, fortunately it's not anymore, but it was the first thing to come up when you Googled your

name. Like, the internet is fucking forever, you know? And so I was just sort of not shocked, but I was like, wow, they're transferable skills. Like the reason that you're so good at communicating with people at having this podcast, this media empire that you're building, it's like, I'm sure so much of what you were doing before is, you know, almost like a one-to-one. It's just using those things, those skills for the, for better reasons, I guess you can say. I mean, your story's a little, your story is different because you, like you, it was not, it was not all you. It's a crazy story, But the funny, the ironic part is I'm like shy, you know, like I'm very introverted. Yeah.

But like this I can do. I'm just not the person that will go up to someone like at a bar. You wouldn't slip them a note that said like. No, I would never do that. I'm getting better. Like the more I like I, the older I get, the more confident you get and stuff. I don't know. I just I'm not like I'm working on it, but I'm not like I'm very introverted.

But I guess because I'm in control here too, like you're walking into my studio and a lot, you got to realize 99. The guests are people with no social media platform. They look at me on a pedestal where I'm just like a normal person, but I see the way they look at me. So they're intimidated and scared and nervous. And to me, it's just like I'm comfortable in this element. Yeah. So I think it works out.

But weird question for you. Do you ever like worry that you're, and I'm not saying that you are to me by or that you do at all. But like, do you ever worry that people will see what you're doing? in certain cases like as manipulating them or like I feel like I think I overthink it sometimes where I'm like oh my God I have to act a certain way because I don't want someone to think that I'm trying to pull something over on them because of like my history when really it's like a normal thing I just yeah do you ever find yourself in those like I mean like I think like people kind

and know what they sign up for. Like, they know it's like a very, like, it's a catchy thumbnail. It's a catchy title. But that's what it takes to put their story out there. Sure. And at the end of the day, it's inspirational. Yeah. Like when people sit down with me, it's always the same format.

We go through the childhood before, like most of these episodes, which I find fascinating or like the first 30 minutes is your childhood before you even get to the meat of it. Yeah. So it's not like I'm putting a salacious title on it, sitting down. Okay, tell me about the time you stab someone. Sure. And thanks for the story. Have a nice day.

we go through their whole life story and it goes back to marketing. You got to hook the viewer. If I put so-and-so turns life around, starts a million-dollar business, and don't mention anything about prison this, that. No one's clicking on that, you know? And it sucks, but it is the way. And I wish I could be at the level where maybe one day I'm like a someone on like a Rogan or a big level where you could just put the person's name in the thumbnail and put episode

600 call today, you know, but I'm not at that level. So I got to do what I got to do to get it out there. Sure. But it pays off in the sense where these individuals, including myself, when they come on the show, what comes up on Google first is their episode with me that has their side of the story rather than the news article that said the same salacious headline about them, if not worse. And that's a one-sided story. So I think that's like the power in that. And I think everyone gets that. And there have been people like, there's been a couple here and there.

Hey, can you change this thumbnail? Can you take this down, this and that? And I'll do it for them. But now more often than that, people are like, oh, can you make this people? better, can you do this? Like, they like that and they see that. And there's so many motivational clips out there that I've pivoted to like, okay, I'm like the entertaining stories like you see on my social media that hooks a viewer.

And it gets them to watch a full episode where the first 30 minutes you're hearing about the person's childhood and that humanizes the person. For sure. Do you have haters? Yeah, of course there's haters. But the cool thing about my platform now is most of the haters are on my guess. Yeah. Like, because it's not about me.

The show is not about me. You're like, they can take that. Yeah. And then I'll get hate like, oh, you didn't research this person or this person's a fraud. And it's like, guys, I'm giving everyone that wants, you can reach out to me. If you have some type of story in the criminal justice system, you could come on the platform and share your story. If I can, if I think there's an angle I can work with, I'll work with it, you know? And you could share your story.

And it's not on me to sit here and research you for hours and call you out on bullshit. because then it just makes the person uncomfortable and heated. It's my job to put your story out. You could say whatever. And the audience will then research and just decipher this person's a fraud. So I'll get that kind of hate. Oh, you know, this person's a fraud. You didn't do this.

But they are not understanding like my format. And that's kind of my format. And I put so many episodes out where like if you're a viewer, okay, I don't like this person. This person's not a good speaker, not a good story. Let me skip to the next episode. Yeah. Whereas if I only did one episode, oh, this.

is a terrible episode. I'm going to another podcast. Sure. Yeah, you turn it the fuck out. It's so impressive. But it's cool. You could see a different face and a clip every day. I love that. So that's the grind. There's this mural that's by me in Brooklyn that says, like, if you ain't got haters, you ain't popping. And I'm like, but truth, right? Like, it means that you're, it means that there's attention and that people are paying, that people are listening and, you know, and, and watching. No such thing is bad press. There is no such thing as it's all meaningful in some. But I think it depends on what field you're in.

Like if you work a 9 to 5 and there's an article written about you, that's, I would say that's bad press, but in our line of work. Yeah. If it's a bad, you know, yeah, now it's good. But even when I was doing the nightclub the day I got arrested, we sold out two concerts because everyone's looking at my day about Google. And they put Ian Bick, the operator owner of Tuxedo Junction, and then it shows, oh, you know, adventure clubs playing here that night or whoever.

And then people are like, we got to check this out. It brings attention to it. It's true. I think that my relationship with the press is complicated because so much of it, in the beginning at least, was so, like, racist and misogynistic. Like, the Philadelphia Inquirer, I will fucking put you on blast. I'm looking straight into the camera for those of you are not watching. The Philadelphia Inquirer back in the day, like 2009, you know, they're like a legit newspaper. Right. Like they're an actual, like, you know, they have fact checkers. They, it's not like a, like, bullshit like bright bar type thing. They're like legit. And they posted a link to my leaked nudes. And I was just like, go fuck yourself. Like of all that. Like, and I was really salty because I was like, they weren't even good ones.

Let me update the photo. What's your got's email? Yeah. I was like, come on. Straight to the source. They actually, it's funny because a couple of years ago when New York Magazine, magazine did a future on me. They reached out to that journalist. And, you know, he was horrified that they had ever done that, or at least, you know, said that he was and was like, do you want me to take them down? Do you want me to? And my first question was like, can we link to something else? I was like, I have much better content now. But, you know, it's like one of those things where it's like, I'm glad that now people, it sucks that we have to scrutinize media. us so much. But back when all of my stuff was really out there in the world, you know, we,

everything was taken as factual. And there wasn't a lot of thought put into it as a reader. You were just like, if the news is reporting it, that means that it's legit. And so like, you know, the things just as simple as like my age, that was misreported. But then the thing that bothered me the most was the amount of money that was cited, right? Because people thought that I was walking away with like hundreds of thousands of dollars. And part of me, not to be like, I wish I would have, but like, you know, I was like, it was like, you know, it was like sub like 20 grand. And so there was a part of me, it was weird where I was just like, oh, like I, you know, for some people, was like, well, who cares? Like, you stole the money. You stole money. That's like the main headline, right?

But it's like, I don't know. That $100,000 difference, like matters to me. Like, but then I think about it. I'm like, but why? Why did it? You know, if again, it got people to pay attention to the story, da, da, da, da, da. And, you know, I am where I am now because of all of the things. So, beggars can't be choosers. No, something I know from my experience going to prison is like you're out on the world on your bullshit. it one day and you're in prison the next, you're still that same person. Time hasn't passed. And I got myself into a lot of kind of dicey situations at the beginning. So what was that like for you? Because you were still technically that same person. You haven't really had time to process it. Yeah. You know, are you doing like your same antics and tricks with other women? Or are you your same self, you know, describe that experience for you. Yeah. That's a great question. I come up with a good

Yeah, you're pretty good at this. I'm a funny one's over told you. Thank you. I try. Yeah, I mean, I think something that happens when you're a liar is that in a lot of positions, whether that be, you know, in the system or just in daily life, is that in weird ways, it's like lies, beget lies, beget lies, right? So, like, for example, when I was, you know, doing the digital marketing thing, I was giving all of my accurate, legit information to get these jobs, right? But I was going by my middle name. I was going, but I was having my coworkers call me Michelle because I wanted to try to mitigate, you know, people Googling me, right? But like, of course, the people who needed to know that my name was Carrie knew that my name was carry.

It's not that weird to go by your middle name. So, legit, like, you know, like, I wasn't really doing anything wrong. But to me, I was still like, well, I'm still like. lying about who I am. And it just felt so, like, it was frustrating that I was like, I'm trying to be this, like, normal person and I'm still having to, you know, kind of put forth this bullshit. And I feel like when I was in jail, that was very similar, right? Where in the beginning, you're just kind of trying to, you know, position yourself as either a person who people should be wanting to be friends with or paying attention to or to not fuck with or you know whatever it is and so

I definitely think the first bit it was like yeah I was still very much kind of playing the same game of like I need to make myself seem cooler more interesting than I actually am not realizing that the power of and like the fact that me being me is the interesting part right but it was like within all of that that I was able to discover, like, hey, you know what? I don't actually need to lie about, like, being cooler because I am fascinating enough as is. But, yeah, I mean, I remember, yeah, yes, the answer is yes, for sure, was still, like, running my mouth and doing all the things in the beginning. What was the most surprising thing to you about prison? I think the most surprising thing was just really how there are all.

all different types of people. Like, it seems like such an easy answer, but truly, like, I was, I was in there with all different types. Like, I guess the kind of people you would consider, like, your average criminals, but then people who were there because they couldn't afford to pay parking tickets, like, legit. Like, yeah, like, they had a shit ton of parking tickets. It's like, okay, maybe you shouldn't have a lot of get up into, like, 200 parking tickets,

but it's like, they were just. regular-ass people who didn't pay parking tickets, you know? And then I was with a lot of women who fought back, you know, they were in abusive relationships, things like that. And, you know, they kind of took matters into their own hands. And, you know, it's obviously circumstantial, but oftentimes it was because no one was doing anything. No one was believing them. No one was helping them to get out of these fucking crazy situations. So they had to do that for themselves. There was one woman in particular, I remember who she had a, you know, felony assault with battery charge. And it's because she, like, hit this man who was beating her with a hairbrush.

But they said that that was a weapon. And so it got, like, bumped up to this aggravated assault, you know, whatever it was. And so it was just, like, seeing, I think the most surprising thing to me was, like, how fucked up the system is. Like, I kind of just, you know, thought, I don't know, not. like it wasn't corrupt or anything, but like, oh, you know, people do this thing and then they get in trouble for this thing and then they pay the time for this thing. And it's like, well, actually, there are like so many other things that they throw at you or, you know, like it starts as one thing, a much higher charge for a reason because they know you're not going to accept that,

but they want to talk you into somehow still owing them, you know, the state. or the federal government X amount of money. And so just seeing like in real time and watching it play out and then living through it, I was like, wow, this is fucked up. Like this system is beyond what I ever could have imagined as far as corruption goes. And I think now it's like much more, you know, there are obviously people who have known that forever. But me growing up for the most part this like, the police are good.

They're there. They're there to help us. You know, like only bad people go to prison. It's like, there's a lot more nuance to it than, you know, people like to really think about. So I think that was the most surprising thing, honestly. Did you try to run any game on guards because you were so used to that with men? Yeah, I mean, yes, and it worked. I mean, like.

Give us an example. Yeah, like, okay, so there was this guard who would play music. Okay, so where I was, it was not like an orange is the new black situation. When I was in Philly, it was, right? It was like, I don't want to say like the inmates ran the institutions, but it was like, you know, we had some more, I guess, like freedoms as far as like being able to walk from room to room without being escorted, that kind of thing. In Mormon land, it was very much like I was minimum security. You know, it was a financial crime. But I was still only out of myself for like five hours a day. We weren't allowed. to have radios. We didn't have access to the internet. We could only have two books at a time. Like, it was very, very, very, very strict. And so there was a guard who took a liking to me and nothing ever happened, but I definitely like flirted with him or whatever and he would play music for me, like through the intercom in myself. It was like shit like that. You know, I would use,

I would like get my celly swapped with someone who I actually wanted to be with, you know, like that kind of thing. Like it was never anything super crazy, but definitely running that same kind of game to still get what I wanted. I mean, basically I'm like opportunistic. So it's like I'm in this position already. I may as well try to make this as good for myself as it can be, right? Now tell us about the riot. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So that was in Philly.

And that was the, it was a situation, oh, it was so fucking crazy. So basically what happened is that I was with an inmate. There was a corrupt CO. And, you know, they would help ferry things, they would help get things into the system, you know, but then obviously the inmates were paying for it in a number of ways. and there was a person there who was their mother was not doing well and they were not given permission to visit them while they were very, very sick in the hospital. And ultimately, you know, they were unable to go to the funeral when their mom died.

and they had taken out of magazines, like the perfume samples, which were not supposed to make it in the system, like into the jails at all, but did. And so anytime they could get their hands on one of those particular things, they would hold on to it. Anyway, there was like, our cells were rated for whatever reason, and they found this stash. and they had no idea that like the samples were the perfume that her mom wore, right? Super fucking sentimental to them. They just saw it as contraband and they tossed it and then that person got into trouble for having it. And so that person then it became their mission to make this particular CO pay.

And it was the same CO that was helping get shit into the, you know, whether that be like treats or cigarettes or whatever the fuck it was. And so ultimately what ended up happening is that they tried to poison the CO with eyedrops, with eyedrops into their coffee. Eye drops are poisonous? Well, if there's enough of them, there's an ingredient in there that can, it won't necessarily kill you, but it could with like an intense amount of that ingredient. But if nothing else, it's going to make you shit your brains out. So like they weren't necessarily trying to kill them, but they were trying to.

going to make them have a very bad day. And so, yeah, long story short, there was a riot that happened that you can read about in my book because of this situation. And it was fucking crazy. It was, I mean, like, I remember using the plastic trays as like a shield to like, you know, things were flying through the air. And it was very much an us versus them. It was like the guards were like barreling in in all of their riot gear.

And, you know, again, I think. When people think about a lot of this, like, what comes into mind is just like these, like, you know, massive, like hardened criminals, like, you know, 200 pounds of, like, bulking muscle. It's like, no, this was like a women's facility. Like, you know, it was all different types. But, like, we're, for the most part, like, much smaller people than the guards, especially when they're in their riot gear, right? So it was like, what can you do?

What was it that we were able to use against them? And this was like pretty early on into my like prison, you know, my, my career. And, yeah, so I was just fucking terrified. And I was like, what is going on? I'm just trying to protect myself. But it was crazy watching all these other people like, really, you know, I mean, they were like barricading the doors. Like for a bit, the guards weren't able to get in.

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Shop BOM's new arrivals at BOM.com. That's B-O-H-M-E.com. Here, because they were being attacked. Yeah, it was wild. It was crazy. Do you think your prison sentence that year or however long you ended up serving out of that year, do you think that helped your mindset get out of the way of, you know, like the whole living above your means situation, kind of cheating your way to get money? Do you think that helped it, help fix it? For sure, because I think it gave me a purpose.

Like, again, I'm not, I don't really believe, I don't think there was like anything restorative about the situation. itself, but in seeing how there were all of these other people who were found themselves in these hard times because they were put in them and there wasn't really a way for them to get out of them. You know, and then looking at my own situation where I'm like, wow, I really am privileged. Like, I don't, I haven't had to worry about a lot of these things. Like, you know, I put myself in these situations and then seeing that up against people where like they were trying to survive. Like they didn't have really, they didn't have other options.

And I think that's another thing that's hard for people to believe, right? Where it's like, well, you always have another option. And it's like, well, yeah, but when you try to, let's say get a legitimate job and you're denied from every one of those jobs because you don't have a college degree or you don't, or because you have been in the system or you got in trouble as a juvenile, it's like, yeah, there are always other options. but we're not, again, we're not trying to help support these people. And so seeing that where I was like, wow, I did this. I put myself here, but a lot of these other people didn't. Like, what am I doing?

You know, why, how could I kind of like piss away these opportunities that I have? So in that regard, yeah, for sure. Because then I was like, even though for a while, you know, I was like, I just want to, you know, be a normal person, it always stuck with me of like, wow, these other people have had to make things work for themselves in so many ways that I am so fortunate that I've never had to do. I've never had to put myself in these situations. I just did. And yeah, I mean, I definitely think it helped too with just my understanding of money because I'm like, yeah, it really has consequences to pretend that you do when you don't. And seeing like the cautionary tail in all of these other people for sure for sure what made you decide because you did get that

normal lifestyle those 10 years you you you well you worked a job and you rebuilt your life what made you want to walk away from that and start your own thing and put yourself out there yeah because you could have easily went into the background you know kind you could not be doing this you didn't have to do the book at tv you didn't have to do any of that you could have just kept the job or find a new job Well, I did have to find a new job several times because they ultimately did find out who I was. And it wasn't because I had a record necessarily. It's because they Googled me. So it's like there were times where I would like, you know, be fired from these jobs where they would be like, I'm so sorry that we have to do this because you're an amazing employee. But like this is affecting our relationship.

This could affect our relationship with like clients or whatever, whoever. Like I worked in financial institutions. I worked for meta. I worked for fucking Vivek Ramoswamy. at his at his, it's called Axevant, his biopharma startup.

They fired you too. Yeah. Adam Newman also from WeWork fired me. So I'm like, these motherfuckers. Didn't he have a whole thing too? Yeah. You know,

so they were like prolific scam artists. And it's like, there they are looking at me just trying to like have a normal job and being like, no, you're getting the axe. Sure.

But I only remember what your question is. Actually, can I go pee? Yeah, you go pee. Sorry. I'm sorry. Okay. Thank you for that.

Listeners, I'm sure that some of them out there would have loved to join me in the bathroom. But thanks for letting me take that break. Yeah, you were, okay, do you want to ask the question again? I'll let you go for it because you want that line in there about the listeners. Find me on Instagram. They're all going to be in your DMs now. And I've already said that I check every single one of them. I may have just fucked myself.

You're going to go literally, literally. Like, well, yeah, right? But yeah, you were asking about specifically... Why you decided to finally share your story, you know, tell it out there to the world. Well, you could have just kept job hopping, but I know that was probably discouraging, you know, people getting rid of you, which probably answers the question that that's what forced you into it. What was that? And like, throughout all of this time, I still had like my Instagram presence, right? I still had like, it maybe wasn't the, you know, amount of followers that I have now, but I was always

still wanting to, like, educate people and be an advocate for these things that I believed in. And so it just started to feel very at odds with one another, where it was like, okay, I'm having to, again, kind of pretend to be this person. I'm not, right? But still, while wanting to get my story out there or at the very least, like, or I should say it's the opposite, using my story to talk about the things I care about. And it was really in 2017, 2018, so this was like, you know, a full, you know, 10 to 12 years after everything has happened. I started to talk to some of my friends who are in media about wanting to use my story in a more meaningful way. And, you know, I had obviously thought like, oh, this would this, I had come to terms with that it actually is a

really fascinating story. You know, living through it, again, it was kind of like, why do people care? But then in retrospect, I'm like, okay, I get it. I was like, I think this would make a really good TV series. And so we started working, my friend and I started working on this show. And it's a fictionalized, scripted version of my story. And we sold it to Warner Brothers. And we're making it with Mindy Kaling's production company Kaling International. And again, this was 2018, yeah, 2017, 2018. And, you know, these things take time as is. But then 2020 comes and obviously everyone knows what happened. And I just felt so activated. Right. Like in that there were all of these things. It was really the first time that I felt like I could be like, yeah, I am a felon. I am this person who

it was the first time that I really felt like I could not be proud of, but open about who I was and my past without shame, right? And then I was like, oh, well, and I can use this during these, like, very, like, politically fraught times, right? We're talking about, like, the Black Lives Matter movement and George Floyd and, you know, all of these protests and marches and things that I was participating in. It was like, oh, I'm not just, and obviously no shade to people who do get out there regardless of their affiliation, you know, with the system. We need every person we can out there fighting for what is right. But for me in particular, I was like, wow, this is a time where I can actually get in front of people and say, like, I was incarcerated.

I am a felon many times over and look at where I am at now. And there's not really that much different, you know, there's nothing different between me and these other people outside of like access to these things. And that felt so good. And it was really the first time that I could like truly like reclaim my narrative. And it was the first time that I was like able to, yeah, sort of shed the persona of like, wanting to hide from it, you know, if anything, kind of being able to embrace it. Again, not a thing that I'm proud of, but a thing where I'm like, oh, you know, for the same reasons that my story was surprising to people back then, it's using those same mechanisms, but then having, you know, real poignant and important things to say. So all of this is happening. And, you know, we're not

sure if the industry like you know if the TV film industry what's going to happen warners to their credit kaling to their credit you know they're sticking by me throughout the entire thing but there's only so much that you can do there's only so much momentum that you can have and so a couple years go by we're still chugging along and I am like I have this story you know and I want to get it out there And I want to be able to make this my career, speaking with people, highlighting others' experiences and their stories. So I kind of bullied myself into writing a book. And again, during all of this, I'm still working my corporate job. And it just got to the point where I was like, I can't do all of these things.

And, you know, much like you, it's like, well, at a certain point, you have to commit. to you have to you have to kind of go all in right and believe in yourself and here I am telling other people you need to believe in others and telling other formerly incarcerated people you need to believe in yourself and it's like okay well time to like literally put you know put my money where my mouth is and like go for it um and so yeah I left and I finished the book and then fast forward a couple more years it's a process here we are the show is still being made, which is exciting. We've survived. Yeah, the pandemic strikes, all of the things. And yeah, it's super fucking gratifying. But it's work. It's hard. It's not, you know, I mean, it's a grind.

So for all, for as happy as I am to be my own boss and to be doing all of the things, you know, there's, I don't want anyone to think that there's this illusion of like that it's all just being handed to me. I work very hard to make this shit happen for myself. And again, like, I have the most amazing people around me and I couldn't do it without them. But, you know, it's certainly not just, like, opportunities presenting themselves. It's like me making those opportunities happen. I'm sure you find yourself in very similar positions all the time. Yeah. It's been an interesting journey, you know, to say the least. And I'm grateful that I've gotten to where I'm at. And it, the cool thing is about this line of work is there's no top, but you keep going. Yeah. Like there's an infinite amount of

followers, an infinite amount of views. And it's cool seeing that like all the big A-lister podcast, like the Jay Shetty, the Theo Vons, all those guys, the Rogans of the world, they started right where I am, hundreds and hundreds episodes, you know, before things really popped off. So I think The more, you know, there's going to be those episodes where, you know, one's just going to pick and it's going to go like wildfire. And then everything's going to change. And it's going to be the one where I'm miced while I'm, while I'm peeing in your bathroom in the hallway. I just know it. I just know it.

So what do you think is the, you know, the greatest takeaway, the lesson you want people to get from listening to your story? Yeah. I mean, I'm sure I sound like a broken record, but it really is just. providing these resources, like looking at things with through a different lens, um, you know, seeing that the system, there's obviously an issue and that we, as the people, collectively, we hold a lot of power. And that can be everything from, yeah, talking about the carceral state, but also just like looking at, you know, billionaires who don't give a fuck about us, you know, who are literally trying to leave this.

planet, like who are, you know, they don't care about us. They don't care about anything besides their best interest. And it's like, we have the means to fight against that. But it really, we're at a point where it can't be passive. Like, you have to make a concentrated effort. And the hard thing about that is that it's exhausting, right? But I think that the takeaway is that anything is, I don't even want to say anything is better than nothing. It's just that you're, it can look so many different ways. It's like if you can be out there pounding the pavement, like on the streets, like actively trying to change people's minds, that's amazing. If you can donate money to causes that you believe in, like that's amazing. If you can have a podcast,

if you can put yourself out there in those ways, that's incredible. Like there are so many different things that people can do to actively commit to making the world a better place. And, you know, I'm a for, everything is political, but it doesn't have to be politics. You know what I mean? Like, I think we can all say, or we should at least all be able to say that we want to support people who have made mistakes in their lives. Because that's literally everyone. That's every single person. And so, you know, what are we doing collectively to make that happen? And yeah, I just, we, we are settings. I have a lot of hope. I subscribe to the thought of like optimistic nihilism. I don't think that anything matters. I think that, you know, like we're in the ebb and flow of like society, you know, being built up and then society falling.

and that's just what's happened since literally the dawn of time. But I'm optimistic in that, you know, whether or not you believe that there's an afterlife or whatever it is, what matters is that we're here now and that so are billions of other people. And what is the point if we're not actively trying to make this place that we are all in, you know, as good as it can be? for everyone. And I think that there's so much conflict between, listen, I'm a very politically active and outspoken person in the sense that I fucking hate it all. Like, I don't believe, the institution, I just don't believe in it anymore. But I believe in people. And I believe in our capacity to really do good. And I do think that people, regardless of where they fall,

all like everyone cares about someone and something. And so, yeah, how are we just making it better for those people? And really thinking about that, you know? That was a loaded question with a loaded answer. So you were like, one takeaway. I think the one takeaway literally is that you have, you hold a lot of power. Like you as an individual hold a lot of power. And that power is only amplified when you are in solidarity with others.

And yeah, I just hope that people can think about things by my book. Yeah, which we have right here. You gave me a gift, which you will give me a signed copy. Yeah, it's called You'll Never Believe Me. It's out now. Try to, you know, support if possible your local bookstores, your local businesses, your mom and pop shops. This doesn't even look like you. I know.

Well, what's interesting is based off of an actual photo of me. This one is? Yeah, I have to show you. Again, I love my publisher. I think that every author will tell you that the cover, getting to the book cover that you like is a journey. Yeah, I had the people from the cult podcast on. And their book cover, they didn't like it.

They were going back and forth with the publisher. It's tough. Everyone has an idea of what it should be, right? The first one. They should have literally, I keep telling you, just that your outfit now, smile, boom, on the cover of the tattoos. I know. See, and this is the thing. This is why I love being, I mean, speaking to people in general, but I think that so much of it too, and I'm sure it goes for you as well, where it's like, once people hear you and see you speaking and interacting, like that's what's going to get them to be interested in buying the book, right?

Like, it's a great cover. I love this cover. Is it enough, you know, for when people walk in? into their bookstore to see that. To pick it up, I don't know. But hopefully once they see me on your show, they're going to be like, oh, this person is interesting. Oh, you're already signing.

You didn't leave me a note, though. Oh, that one was a, yes, that was a bookstore site. I'm going to rent you. Thanks a lot. No, I just grabbed. I got a secondhand book. Damn. People can't change.

No, hopefully this episode does sell you some books. Most of the guests that have books that come on, you know, they're able to sell a lot of books. Look at the big bump? The big bump. With a big bump. Yeah, we have a very loyal, you know, Spotify and Apple following. And then obviously YouTube, but that's all algorithm-based. But YouTube and Spotify, very loyal listener base.

Yeah. Follow me on Instagram. It's really the only social media that I have at the moment, hot dog hand jobs. I post what I find should be very entertaining content. Literally a page in her book is, I can't uncuff you all on button and unzip you. But you're going to have to do the rest as the best you can. Try not to make a little bit. mess. She lifted the jacket up exposing my midriff as she tugged at my pants. Yeah, that's when I was in the

airport and I was cuffed and I was like, I have to pee, much like it. I was like I have to pee and they were like, all right, well, you got to stay cuffed. Like, we're not going to undo this. We have a very large male audience. You're going to get a lot of D-EBS. Yeah. Listen, maybe I, that's a lot of like urine-based things. Not really into that. I'm not into that. But if you follow me on Instagram, Listen, I love posting thought shots. I love, I mean, I get a lot of DMs that are like, came for the thought shots, stayed for the, like, stayed for the education or like stayed because you're funny. And I'm like, there is no better. I mean, that is like an accolade that I will proudly hold on to.

I'm like, I will own that. But yeah, thank you so much for having me on. Yeah, this is an incredible conversation. I'm glad we got to connect. And, you know, I'm sure we'll be doing more together. Yeah. And all of your faithful listeners will hopefully listen to you when you're on. my podcast, the worst thing I've ever done.

Well, yeah, make sure that gets out there. Yes, we will definitely promote it. But I appreciate it and I really think that what you're doing is so inspired, all of the things that everyone says, but, you know, so inspiring and it's really like you are exactly what I think of when I'm like talking about doing the most that you can and using your own, everyone's fascinating. Everyone has their amazing individual experiences that others can learn from and others should learn from. And so, yeah, and I can't wait to see all the other amazing guests that you have on and continue to have on because, again, you have like five episodes a week.

I'm grinding. And I have enough content to do seven, but I need a little bit of a break. Yeah. That's the other thing is it's a longevity game. So you've got to take care of yourself. I'm working on doing that better in 2025, like, you know, trying to do the phone off like an hour before bed, going to bed at a certain time. I've been waking up early for training, like boxing training and fitness training now six days a week. And I was never a morning person for the last couple of years since I had left my job.

And now I'm back to being a normal person. I'm up early. When do you wake up? Like six. Oh, my God. Yeah. I'm trying to be back in bed like 930. The last couple nights have been a little rough because we've been having guests.

and, you know, dinners and stuff. But ideally I want to be on a strict schedule just doing one episode a day because this month is kind of crazy. I'm doing like two a day. But because I just want to say yes to everyone that wants to come on. So now I just have to listen. If they got to wait two months to come on, I got to do that for me. Yeah.

So I could just do the best possible interview, you know, and just do one a day, Sundays off. Exactly. And, you know, pace myself. And if I could do that, I think I'll be good. When's the last time you went on vacation? In August. Okay. Last August.

You're due. Yeah, yeah. You're due. I put in my schedule for my assistant the days I'm taking like two weeks off at a time. And I have that mapped out for the rest of the year. So I'm doing better at that. And I have so many episodes in the tank. And just I got out work on saying, I'm people pleaser.

So I got to say no to more people, you know? Yeah. I mean, and like you're saying, it doesn't have to be a straight up no. It's like a no for now. Yeah. Like you're going to come on the show. Like, but maybe in two in like two months versus now. Yeah, just like because sometimes I just go overboard like the other day, yesterday I had three, three podcasts.

And I'm just like dying at the end of the day because it's a lot, you know. I mean, it's hard to like, like this is so, this is great because it is very like, I mean, this was an amazing conversation and it felt very easy for me. But it still doesn't negate the fact that like you're on, you know, you are like the best version of yourself right now. And that's exhausting. Yeah, it is. And to listen because most of the time I'm not talking. So it's a refreshing when I get to talk like when the guests ask me questions because that keeps me up. But it could be very hard.

Just to like, yeah, like two or three. And the guest is talking, which is great. I never want the guest not to talk. I want them to own it. But it's just personally, it's hard. Yeah. You're like, fuck, I could be playing Switch right now. Oh, you saw our Switch out there?

I am a big, I love Tears of the Kingdom. I'm a huge. I'm not a gamer per se, but I love. I love Zelda so much. Oh, that was a throwback. I've been like, yeah. But yeah, it's like, I can, seven, you could do seven. Oh, wait.

Don't do that to yourself. No, not. I'm saying I could, you know. Well, you could do a lot of things. Yeah, but I feel like five. You could also resurface as your only fans, couldn't you? So. People have been wanting that.

You know, you could do a lot of things. Yeah, you could do a lot of things too. So I'll throw that one right back at you. But, uh. Listen, the people want what the people want. Yeah. That is what could pay for your vacation. They're going to light you up on these comments on this episode.

I know. What do you think? I'm not an idiot. If you're lighting me up, you better follow me as well. You can light me up on my own comments. They're not going to give me negative stuff. They're going to give me shit. They're going to think I sat here and giggled like a schoolgirl

the whole fucking episode with you. That is kind of what you're doing. Yeah, a little bit. There is giggling. If you had long hair, you'd be twirling right now. That's my personality. people don't get you know okay you know what this is getting your head we're out of here this is over thank you care thank you Ian