Locked In with Ian Bick - Ex-NYPD Detective Reveals the Shocking Truth About Police Quotas | Vincent Guastamacchia

Episode Date: August 13, 2025

NYPD Detective Vincent Guastamacchia spent 15 years serving New York City — starting as a housing cop, then working undercover narcotics, serving as a narcotics detective, and even becoming a hostage negotiator. In this candid interview, Vincent shares what day-to-day life was really like on the job, the inside stories from his career, and why police quotas in the NYPD are very real. If you’ve ever wondered what it’s like to patrol the streets of NYC, work undercover, and navigate the politics of policing, Vincent’s firsthand account pulls back the curtain on it all. #NYPD #PoliceStories #TrueCrime #LawEnforcement #UndercoverCop #PoliceQuotas #DetectiveLife #crimedocumentary Connect with Vincent Guastamacchia: Website: https://fromnegotiatortohostage.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/perimeteragency? Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/share/14GorC3wuYx/?mibextid=LQQJ4d and X: https://x.com/perimeteragency?s=21&t=k4TVKqm6nINgnr-BLHnjgQ Website: http://www.perimeteragency.com/ Hosted, Executive Produced & Edited By Ian Bick: https://www.instagram.com/ian_bick/?hl=en https://ianbick.com/ Get 50% off the Magic Mind offer here: https://www.magicmind.com/IANB50. #magicmind #mentalwealth #mentalperformance Presented by Tyson 2.0 & Wooooo Energy: https://tyson20.com/ https://woooooenergy.com/ Use code LOCKEDIN for 20% OFF Wooooo Energy Buy Merch: http://www.ianbick.com/shop Timestamps: 00:00 Police Quotas & NYPD Insider Secrets 03:31 Podcast Origins & Platform for Stories 04:54 Vince's Upbringing and Family Dynamics 08:06 Role Models, Juvenile Crime & Parental Impact 12:40 Early Life Lessons & the Urge to Help 15:00 High School Years and Neighborhood Differences 20:15 Military Service and Its Life Lessons 24:00 Transition to Policing—Why Become a Cop 26:00 Housing Cops, Quotas, and Community Dynamics 33:44 Police-Community Relationships & Arrest Impact 40:00 Quotas, Corruption, and Systemic Issues 47:00 Undercover Work & Detective Promotion 53:00 Arrests for Petty Crimes & Financial Incentives 59:56 The Vicious Cycle: Systemic Crime, Prisons, and Gangs 01:10:00 Detective Work: Ethics, Empathy, and Major Cases 01:19:00 Challenges in Policing—Rules, Quotas, Bureaucracy 01:26:00 Reasons for Leaving & Mental Toll of the Job 01:28:00 Life After Law Enforcement: Security & PI Work 01:33:00 Law, Justice, and Legal System Frustrations 01:39:00 Mistakes, Lessons Learned, and Hostage Negotiation 01:45:00 Negotiation Stories & Psychology in Action 01:49:24 Final Reflections: Fixing the Broken System Powered by: Just Media House : https://www.justmediahouse.com/ Creative direction, design, assets, support by FWRD: https://www.fwrd.co Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Anyway, give it a try at mintmobile.com slash switch. Upfront payment of $45 for three-month plan, equivalent to $15 per month required. Intro rate first three months only, then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra. See full terms at MintMobile. In housing, we have a quota. We had quotas. Two arrests every month and five criminal court summons. Quotas are real, and I'm anti-quota because I believe it puts the wrong person forcefully in situations that they may not be prepared for. Former NYPD detective Vincent Guastamacca grew up on the tough streets of Brooklyn,

inspired by his stepdad to serve and protect. After four years in the military, he joined the NYPD, starting as a housing cop before going deep undercover in narcotics, rising to detective, and even serving as a hostage negotiator. Over 15 years on the force, he saw the truth behind the badge, including the reality the NYPD doesn't want to admit. Police quotas are real. Vince, welcome to Lockton. Thanks so much for being a listener of the show and coming on the show today.

Well, thanks for having me. I listen a lot. Your content is really captivating. It keeps me tuned in because you never know what you're going to hear, right? I got a lot of interest in what happens after arrests that I made a couple of hundred in my career. And you don't never get to follow up with the, sometimes you don't want to. But sometimes it wasn't really, other than victim or circumstance, that's what happens, you know. Yeah, it's so interesting to see the other perspective looking back on it.

for both sides, like the criminal side who gets to listen to the cops that come on the show, the former law enforcement, and then from the law enforcement side that gets to listen to the former criminal perspective. And then we kind of all realize that we're not too far off from each other after all. And I think it definitely helps change the stigma among things as well. And that's why I was just telling you before that. I want to do more law enforcement episodes, be more picky about who comes on the show to make sure we're getting a full story out of it. And we're getting a beginning, middle, and end. And we're just getting those really good raw stories, like the one I was telling you about the other day,

the guy that killed the cop that had abused him as a child. That was just an incredible story where he just talked for those full, you know, two hours. And you couldn't have asked for a better guest. And the law enforcement episodes are so great in that regard, too. So, yeah, I appreciate you coming on the show, man. Yeah, thanks for having me. I want you to tell our audience what you do now. It's pretty amazing what you have going on and this new life,

you've created after leaving law enforcement? Thanks, yeah. Perimeter agency is a consulting agency. We consult on various industries, agriculture, but I really've gotten into a niche between litigation management and mediation. And we can talk more about that if you like. I kind of want to get more into what you have going on. Like what the podcast?

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I started the podcast after leaving Whole Foods. I worked at Whole Foods for three years. And my friend convinced me to start making TikToks about my story. And it kind of took off. There was a market for having someone that went to prison like me share their experience about prison. And then I converted it into the podcast. And then I realized my purpose and my focus is just having other people who have lived experience, share their stories that don't normally get.

a platform that we don't really hear these stories. And then I found that you could go even further and you can have victims, you can have psychologists, you can have the people that went to prison, you can have law enforcement, you can have prosecutors, attorneys, judges. There's like this whole world. And then it gets even deeper when you have like the good guys who become the bad guys or the bad guys that become the good guys. So I piece that all together and now we have this incredible show. And I got to have the honor of just interviewing all these different folks that have, you know, so much trauma and past history, and they're able to come here and just let it all out. They come from all over the country just to talk to me. And it's, it's therapeutic for them.

And they really enjoy that. So, Vince, where did you grow up? Where are you from? I'm from Gravesend, Brooklyn. Kind of like a little south of Bensonhurst, right next to Coney Island. I went to Grady High School. I was about one of 10 white kids. Grady. So I grew up fighting for my sneakers and it wasn't a I was scared. I was, my mother made me go to school and I was like, Ma, but they're going to steal my sneakers. Go to school. It was a vocational school. She thought I was going to become an electrician. You know, my neighbor was an electrician. He's like, yeah, go graduate. I'll hire you. You'll make more money than most of the kids in the neighborhood. That never happened. I moved out.

I'm sorry, we moved to Long Island, Levittown. In 11th grade, my stepfather was a detective. He retired while I was in 11th grade, and they bought a Levitt house in Levittown. And I had to transfer high schools, which turned out well. A lot of good kids I met in Levittown. But, believe it or not,

I was exposed to more drugs in the suburbs than I was in Brooklyn. How do you think that that plays out? It's not a... You wouldn't think so, right? You think you might think of it from a mother. Oh, I get to move my kid out of the city, better life. A lot of drugs out in the suburbs. Where was he a detective for...

My dad, Coney Island, 6-0 Precinct. Yeah, and I wound up going back there. So all thanks to my stepdad, my real dad, we can get into... He was for no better description of wannabe wise guy. That when I was like three, maybe five or six, he got arrested in the middle of August, wearing a leather trench coat with a bulge carrying a shotgun. I'd like to say I didn't take after him.

But I guess victim of circumstance, right? But he wasn't feeding his kids. He wasn't robbing the store to feed his kids because he didn't feed us. he uh you know that's another story when did you know about him like his past and upbringing um i guess by the time i was like six or seven you know when you ask your mom how come all the other kids have fathers where's my dad and i think my dad was away upstate at the time for for that by the time i was smart uh by the time i was aware um so uh thank god my stepdad was a a a

better role model for me. I was listening to one of your shows where you asked a great question, what was the common denominator in all the kids in the juvenile detention center? What could have been different that changed their course? And it probably has to be a two-parent household, two parents that care about the child. And that would be the, I had one parent who cared and I did all right. He kept me on the straight and narrow. I had an aunt.

The worst beating I got in my life was from my aunt. And she was five foot nothing. Smash my head into the roof of a car, get in the car, all because I started doing a little graffiti. Oh, man. So thank God for my stepdaddy. He's the guy who, when I was in the Army, signed up for me to take the police test.

Told me to come home, take the test while I was still. stationed. Literally the day I got out of the Army called ETS, expiration term of service, it was the same day my mother received a letter to start processing for the NYPD. So did you envision yourself going into law enforcement when you were a kid in high school? You know when you're in junior, you know in elementary school where it's like the cop comes in and talks to you? The job fairs. Yeah, the job fair. That, when I saw the cop in uniform, I was like, oh, I could be a cop. And I guess when my mom met my stepdad, I got really interested and I would go to work with him a lot.

And he actually locked me in the cell, told me to figure out how to get out. And he left the keys just out of reach. Dick. Did you figure it out? Yeah, I was able to get a chain, like one of those beads, you know, you hang your shield on that was in reach. I whipped a chair. I brought the chair over, and he knew it was probably possible. He just wanted to see if I could do it.

I got the chair, I pulled the, and then trying to figure out how to fucking put the key in there. What do you think that moment taught you, looking back on it now? Don't get in there. You don't want to be in there. And it's sad or some people end there victim of circumstance, like I said. Some people, like I was telling you earlier, as a rookie police officer standing on the roof of the Red Hook projects.

And, you know, they say you got to call them housing developments, but I like calling them projects because it was a project and the project failed. Because I'm standing up there as a rookie cop, right? Now, don't forget, I grew up in Graves down in Brooklyn. It was a wise guy neighborhood. Most wise guys came from my neighborhood in Brooklyn, right? So you learn on the street. You learn the corner grocery store was lit on fire

because he didn't pay for protection. Right? At a young age, you learn how shit goes on on the street. So now you're standing on the roof scratching your head, saying, So I was just approached by an elderly woman who said she's afraid to walk in her building where she's forced to live because she can't afford to live there anywhere else.

She can't afford to live anywhere else. She's afraid to walk in her building because of the drug sales that's going on. Who am I policing for? I'm policing for the person who asked for help. That's why I became a cop. So back to your question, when my stepdad started bringing me to work, and I'm watching the good stuff, I'm watching, and how they met my father, my sister was robbed, mugged,

walking through the Marlboro Projects on her way to Lafayette High School. And he was a detective in Coney Island. So he caught the case and then he picked up my single mother. So, and he didn't catch, he didn't close the case until he got to date with my mom. So fucking cops, right? So fast forward, I did it because I wanted to help. I became a cop because I wanted to help people. So now back to the Red Hook projects.

How to hell do I help this woman who just said, at 22 or 23, probably 23 at the time, very little life experience. I look down at the design of most of these housing projects. And I say to myself, it's designed to breed crime. How do these kids have a chance? How do these kids that I wound up arresting for whatever, robbery, assault, homicide, drug sales? How do they have a shot? They need the two-parent household.

They need the strong father to keep the other kids away from their kid or a strong mother. Sometimes the mother can do that. But it's kind of why I left the job, and we can get to that. Where does that desire to help people come from at such a young age? I guess, long story, when I was a kid, I was playing. You ever see those schools of design like a U-shape where you got the courtyard in the middle and you got the front of the building

and it goes out on the sides and the middle is a courtyard where you play ball and whatever? I'm playing baseball up against the wall with the strike box. You know, you ever see that? Growing up in the city, we didn't have grass, right? So we didn't have a home plate or a backstop. We had a wall that you put tape on like the strike zone

and you pitched and if it was in the box it's a striking it was out of the box the ball there were two twin brothers and these kids were bad asses

and I freaking hit one with a pitch and I wasn't trying I wasn't a tough kid I wasn't trying to hit one with a pitch and I hit him with a pitch and he's like you fucking hit me again

and I hit him again but it was not I promise you it was not purposeful man those kids tormented me for years like if they saw me out on the street

they were part of Avenue U boys them and 20 fucking chased me all through the neighborhood until we moved out thank God right I guess and I had one

I had one woman her name is Louella she lived on the corner of West Fourth and Avenue S and I ran to out of the school yard and I saw her on the corner and I was like Luella and she saw the gang of kids running after me she's like get in here and she fucking started screaming at these kids and they left me alone they're like we'll get you next time I'm like fuck my mother beat the shit out of me for running so you learn the hard way right so I think at that moment

what she did for me that was like I got to start helping people you know I want to be able to do that for somebody at some point in their life would you consider yourself a good kid growing up? That was a good kid yeah yeah short of selling weed in high school which I didn't tell when I was processing

but I think I'm well past the statute other than that yeah I was a good kid what was your favorite memory growing up yeah oh man baseball playing baseball that was pretty good making the varsity team in high school in gradie when basketball was a sport gradie had the best basketball team in brooklyn for years but baseball was like the stepchild so i was able to make that team i probably wouldn't have made it in lafayette or lincoln because they had really good baseball teams like john franco came from lafayette

Did you envision yourself going to college? Funny story. I had an uncle. My uncle was a bartender. And a lot of the bars that the wise guys hung out in. And he got diagnosed with Luke Garrig's disease right around when I was in the sixth grade and the school was a half a block away from his house. So I would go to his house for lunch, kind of keep him company.

The education I got from him, right? Because he's at an age where his life is over. much he told me a lot as a kid and I absorbed it like a sponge so I forgot where was I going on what was the question there about if you envisioned yourself going to college right so he told me you don't waste my fucking time what am I gonna do get all that debt for a while you come out you still have no experience hard to get a job and this is this is 86 with that with that wisdom And I see it as wisdom.

Then I probably saw it as maybe because he didn't go to school. He doesn't look highly upon it. But knowing what I know now, how do you start life at 22 years old with 150 grand in debt? That's fucked up. I don't agree with it. I think vocational schools, trade schools, work with your hands. A kid growing up in my neighborhood, no one was teaching us how to invest in the stock market. To even further that, I tell my guidance counselor,

thinking about a military career. He tells me to enlist. He doesn't even mention ROTC. Neighborhoods that I grew up in, they weren't giving you the best advice. They kind of wanted you to be a civil servant. Somebody with a paycheck. So, and that's what he told me too. He said, find a civil service job, my uncle. Make good money. He even said, the more kids you have, the harder your life will be. So, no, I didn't. I didn't plan on going to college. I planned, thanks to an older cousin, getting me out of the neighborhood, telling me to go into the military,

because I wound up selling drugs in Long Island, selling marijuana in high school, not to high school kids. Military was probably the best route for me. I just wish I had went officer instead of enlisted, and that would be any advice. I'm Hannah. I've lost 75 pounds in 20 months with GLP-1s. plus diet and exercise. On row, I've gone from struggling to run a mile to running farther every day.

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That's benihana.com. I'd give anyone. Tell us about your career in the military. It was fun. Starting, starting out, right, I enlisted as a 63 Cera, which is a heavy wheel vehicle mechanic, known in today's world, in our world, the civilian world, as a diesel mechanic. Making really good money when you get out as a diesel mechanic. You know the vision test that the numbers are in the pastel colors, and you have to see the number in the circle?

Yeah. 50% of males are blind to that. I'm one of the 50% can't see those numbers, right? So that test disqualified me from that job. They didn't tell me that until the day I was about to ship out to go to basic training. So now I'm an 18-year-old kid. Big master sergeant comes up. Sergeant you can do what's right for your country.

You're going to list infantry. Another uncle. I like going back and forth. Another uncle in the army. He said, Vin, you're going to have fun. You're going to see the world. Don't ever go infantry. Pick any other job.

Not infantry. You're just going to be a grunt. You're not going to do shit. You're going to be dirty all the time. Pick something where you're going to get a job when you get out. Because being an infantryman, there's no civilian application other than maybe a surveilling contractor. And I couldn't do that because I don't have the stomach for doing that shit.

So listening to my uncle Now he's in my head Getting the hurrah speech You know you gotta go with tree Two country And I'm like Does this mean My contract is null and void

They were like Yeah I'm like All right I'm leaving Where you go inside You're in the middle of Brooklyn You don't know where you're I said I grew up

Two neighborhoods from here I'm walking off because I came from Long Island So they think The Long Island kid doesn't know anything about Brooklyn. No, I grew up in Brooklyn. I walked off. I got on a pay phone. I called my cousin and I said, can you pick me up? They just fucking welched. So that was my experience. That's how my army career started out. So what did I enlist in as? The only option they gave me was infantry or 75 Bravo, personnel administrative specialists. The best part I learned,

I learned Word. I learned Excel. I learned computers. I learned modems. We were interconnecting. It was when modems first came out, like 1993, 94. Connected all the office computers, so I learned all that shit. I never used it. But I used it from my own personal office, you know. But you went out in the field. You met great people. You shot some guns. You watched military. They called them. what was the name of it DaVardi Mass like Division Artillery Mass every component of the division artillery live fire in a live fire simulation and we got to watch it from like

observation point and you know you're in awe that shit and you're like hoorah and it was good but apart from the and I use the same analogy with the police department you miss the clowns you don't miss the circus and that's my I could sum up my military career

I still keep in touch with a bunch of guys on a Facebook group. Keep checking with each other. But other than that, it was a, it kept me out of trouble. And it gave me a good, so not having college. If I didn't have military, I would have never became a cop because she needed 60 college credits when I had taken a test to get hired or two years active military. Did you go overseas at all?

or no? I was stationed in Germany during Bosnia, but I never got deployed to Bosnia. Sorry, I wanted to turn that up. You're good. But you get your guys in your unit that go over there and we could talk about Bosnia because

you'd have to get political and maybe we don't want to do that. But Bosnia was a shit show. You ever see that movie Behind Enemy Lines with Owen Wilson? That shit was real. And who... So who would... You don't want to go there. We don't want to go political.

Anyway, that was Bosnia. Other than that, two years in Germany, two years in Savannah, Georgia, another great group of people. I don't really keep in touch with many of them for some reason. It's just my first duty station. But we had fun, and the day I get out, the day I sign out is the day my mother says. And I was dating a girl in Savannah, a great girl. She had two kids or three kids. But she was very nice.

And I had planned to stay there for a short time. But I knew I was going back to New York. That was the plan. That's what he even told her. But I was going to stay at least the summer. And she's like, mom said, come home. You got to start processing for the police. And I had left.

and then a new chapter in my life. So it was four years total in the military? Four years, yeah. Did you think about staying longer? No, I had a more pragmatic approach to it. There's not enough money to live comfortably. I mean, once you're out, 50% of nothing is nothing. Same thing with the police, except, I mean, it was a little bit something.

It was a little something. It's livable, but still have to work. Where did you start out at as a police officer? PSA 1 in Coney Island. I was a housing cop. That was fun. It was where I was able to best help improve the relationship with the police in the community. And I could explain why.

In housing, we have a quota. We had quotas. Two arrests every month and five criminal court summonses. Quotas are real, and I'm anti-quota because I believe it puts the wrong person forcefully in situations that they may not be prepared for. Speaking about the police, because they should test for empathy and fight or flight. We can get into that later, but they don't test for that. So I was scared, and the reason why I came up with all that is because I was fucking scared sometimes. You know, you approach three or four guys in a vestibule and the projects by yourself because one guy was assigned to 30 buildings by yourself and you're on foot.

So you've got to respond, whatever. But who am I policing for? Like I said, I'm policing for the old woman who said she's afraid to walk in her own building. Right? I got to help her. How do I help her? One tool in the toolbox is I could arrest those drug dealers. Right? Or another tool is I could refer that up to narcotics and maybe we could get the person putting those drugs in the projects.

I'd like to do that because I believe those drugs are put in those projects to necessitate the need for socialism because once you're arrested, you almost need socialism for the rest of your life, which is welfare or public assistance. I grew up on welfare. I know I'm thankful I didn't have to live in the housing developments in the projects because, like I said, how do you get out of that without going to jail? Tell us more about the quotas. I just had an officer on recently who said quotas don't exist and it's just a myth. Well, I'm talking 20 years more than that, 20 years ago. When I got out, I got out in 2012.

There were still quotas, right? So you got, I had to make two arrests and five C summons a month. Writing a bike on a sidewalk would be a criminal court summons, a C summons. Spitting in public, which I only wrote that if you looked at me in my face and went, like, had a sign of disrespect. Why wouldn't I write you that summons, right? Did I, I didn't look at you and spit, and I didn't look at you at, and then I could go into the relationship between the police and the community. So I saw my interactions with those summonses and those arrests as negative interactions, right? Because if you look at the firemen, old woman, the community loves them.

Because all they do is save lives. They don't write summonses, right? If I pulled you over, I have to write you. Now cops in the precincts had to write a book of summonses, 30 moving violations and maybe two arrests. But I can't. I can't. I only speak for what I was told. and what I witnessed and what I had to do.

So as a, I was a rookie cop, I was assigned to housing, and then you go into family parties or gatherings or girlfriends' families and being the cop there, all you hear are the terrible times they were pulled over and got tickets. So not having a moving violation quota, I didn't have to write those summonses in housing. I had to write criminal court summonsors, riding a bike on the sidewalk, a dog off a leash.

That's fucked up, right? So I got to go, and I won't get my days off. Or if I don't make my quotas, I'm going to get assigned to the hospitalized prisoners, which you don't have, you're dependent on people to bring you food. You can't go to the bathroom because you can't leave the prisoner.

Right? So those are not nice assignments? the worst that you could possibly receive. So if you don't make your quotas, those are the assignments you receive. So I found ways to make my quotas, which I got to people that deserved. They actually broke the law and they disrespected me. So that's the negative aspect of a quota. Whereas if you're an officer and you're just trying to find stuff and make up stuff.

But on the flip side of quota is beneficial if you're actually, pursuing the people that are doing something wrong and breaking the law. Well, and I don't believe there should be a quota necessary because if you're out there doing your job, and there's so many laws on the book, somebody's going to break the law in front of you. So I want to go with the randomness of it and not as to I need someone to break the law tonight.

I think that starts the interaction off on a negative, right? You're like, you're just singling me out, right? imagine you uh i like to use this scenario right so when i was a detective in a detective squad you get someone somebody says you rob them say uh somebody in your life said you rob them right she comes in she picks you out now i have your name your photo and i could go excuse me do you know this person do you know this person oh wow i could look in the car waiting outside your house and go, there he is. I have probable cause to stop you in your tracks, arrest you, and take you to, take you to court, right? That's where I take you. I take you to court. It's court that

handles the rest of the way. But you didn't rob them, and you're going to pick up your kid at the school bus or at school. And you forgot your kid there fucking last week, and you made, and you promised that you'd never forget them again because it was the most traumatic thing. in your kid's life up until this point in your kid's life. You left them at the school bus. And six people almost tried to take your kid. And that's how traumatic the day or so. You have to

go pick up your kid. But somebody told me you robbed them. I have to arrest you. What do I say to get you to go nicely? What do I got to do to get you to put on handcuffs,

abandon your kid and come with me? Tell me, what would you do? what would you say? You're the cop. You've got to do your job. I would maybe be straight up with them and tell them the situation. Correct, right. But you, right? You, and maybe if I was the cop and I had empathy, I would say, come on, let's go pick up your kid. You have a place we could take your kid? Can I drop them off your parents' house? Can I do that? But let's say you're the person that did rob somebody. And while I'm doing all those nice gestures, you stab me in the neck.

Right? It's a double-edged sword. But the point of that is, where do we go from there? How do we stop those interactions where people aren't, like, these kids that are getting trained today, these police officers, they're like, must arrest, must arrest. You're telling me there's no quotas. I'm telling you for my entire career there was quarters and that's kind of like a small problem with the system. Do you compare that to you?

You just brought up a point about how new officers are make a rest, make a rest, make a rest. Is that comparable to like that person that's a high achiever in high school that want to get good grades, wants to be on the top of the class? And there's this bar set for that, like how we equivalent money and success, most of the people do, not that that necessarily means money equals success or success equals money, but they're looking at it as, okay, for me to be successful in this job, I have to make as many as arrests as possible. And policing so far more than just that, but the way they're being trained and the way that some of these individuals have that, you know, desire to be at the top,

they're equilating, you know, a successful police officer is the most amount of arrest possible. Right, with the least amount of complaints. Do it right. Do your job. But like I said, if you're a detective in a detective squad and you're getting your cases, you can do everything you could to absolutely prove that this is the person that should be arrested and everyone should be doing it. I know I did. But there's enough arrests to be made where you don't have to go making shit up. You don't have to look for things unless you're not that guy that just things don't. happen for you. Now this is four months now where you didn't. And this

is all hypothetical because I can't say that this quote is today. I don't know that. All I can know are the reasons that shape my decision on how to police from when I was a cop. Now back to the housing, being a housing cop, do you think

that those projects are there intentionally to kind of fuel the system and it's just one big ecosystem revolving door? You can't You can't look at you if we were to look at it objectively from the top down, like I did as a 22-year-old saying, how do I help this woman who's trying to stop the drug sales in her building?

And then you take that. And then you have the housing. So it's not like this is 1997, 98, but you hear the guys that were on the job in the 80s and the 70s even saying the same thing. like, no, and they just built 10 more projects with the same design. And it's like

after two years, after two years of good police work in a neighborhood, you understand crime patterns and you can understand how to prevent crime patterns. Only they kept replicating the same model. Inward facing addresses.

You can't enter the project without somebody going whoo-oo. Everybody shuts down their drug sets. How do you police that. You got to catch them in the act. You had guests on your show. They're selling drugs to feed their families. I looked at it like that too. This is the only avenue they had. If I didn't have anybody outside the projects trying to tell me how to take all the money you can spare and invest it in the market. Even a non-risk, not risky portfolio, in 20 years, you won't

have to work anymore. I wish somebody told me that at 18. Nobody told me that. Nobody's telling these kids that. Or if they do, they could take their drug proceeds and go invest that. Good for them. But unless you were a criminal, you didn't have that excess cash to invest. You didn't, you couldn't go out to eat once a week. I didn't go to a restaurant until the day before I shipped out for the Army. And that was because my uncle and my old cousins took me out to Bay Ridge, Embers, if you ever been to Embers in Bay Ridge. I haven't. Do you think that the city, allowed those housing projects to operate as kind of drug home bases? I know we had great police officers and sergeants in my precinct and the PSA 1 that could

have shut down gang operations forever, but always seemed to never happen. The criminal justice system failed at some point. Now, like you said, these kids didn't have a chance. Now they go to jail. If we go, if we take the whole system collectively, and look at it. And I had some questions for you. If I start by saying, prison is the number one recruitment aid for gangs, what would you say to that?

I would agree with that. I mean, certainly at least prison gangs. I mean, it doesn't make sense to me why the prison doesn't stop what goes on with the gangs and the killings and everything that every, from my perspective, looking at how all this operates, being in prison,

it could very easily be, shut down, separate, ship everyone out, handle it, but they let it operate. They want it to operate. It fuels it. It fuels the economy. It fuels the prison. It makes it so they don't have to necessarily run it. It's the inmates that run the prison. It's not the other way around. When a riot happens or when any of these things happen, they more or less cave into the demands of these shot callers and the inmates that are higher up because there's more inmates than guards. That'll happen in any situation. You know, it's like if you look at a riot with if there's 10 police officers and 200 rioters right the 200 rioters are going to win over the 10 police officers and that's exactly how prison is right but yet it's

allowed to operate that way now if you were to look back and this is where i'm sorry if i asked you questions on your show but if you look back how did we get there how did we get now let's be devil's advocate to prevent that what do you have to do I think you have to start separating the prison system. It doesn't make sense from the get that you have people with a certain crime going to prison with people that have a way serious crime. I think that's a starting point there. You know, like why was I thrown into a prison where there was violent individuals there? That didn't make sense.

And people do that all the time. And that's how you, we hear all these stories on the show of how these young people got recruited. And they had to put in work and they had to do all of these silly things that they never would have done had they never been put in that prison to begin with. Yep. So there's seriously some level wrong with the classification aspect. I think it starts with the classification. And then the prison system, these individuals that are running at the wardens, the lieutenants, maybe they started out good and they had good intentions, but they're up against a brick wall. They keep getting these individuals at their prison. control over it. What are they going to do? They have to let it roll that way. They can't just ship them all out on their own. It comes from the corporate. That's why it's very corporate ran

the prison system. That's the issue. Going back to do I think the housing developments or the city's responsible, there has to be someone making these decisions to allow these mistakes to keep happening and not do anything about it. So back to me being an investigator and detective, it's why I left the job. It's like all we're doing is replicating the same problem over and over again with no attempt at all to repair the problems at hand, right? You can get into so many things. I could, so I don't want to go too far away because back to the prison. So yes, the city's involved.

Somebody's organizing that. The prisons are involved. Somebody's organizing that. It's all called organized crime, right? So if the drugs, you had a guest on, it was a great guy, Shepard. Damon Shepherd. Damon Shepard. I believe him, by the way, just from listening to the show.

Somebody was allowing drugs into the prison. He's saying he wasn't doing it. He's bringing attention to it. He gets arrested. He gets fired and the drugs are still allowed in the prison. He's clearly not the problem. Could be, couldn't be. I don't want to speculate.

from what he's got a very compelling story, knowing what we know about how the system is allowed to keep operating on a not optimal level, on actually a level that allows... Own it all. Pay off your home, travel for life, drive a Ferrari. In celebration of the world premiere of the Monopoly Big Board Buckslot Machine

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Stop cutting the ice line. This merry-go-round to keep fucking going. I mean, you look at cell phones in the prison system. I think that's a perfect example. You know, how has no one figured out how not to get cell phones into the prison? Right. Like, I was sitting there looking at it when I was in prison. Like, this is so silly.

And you're going to put all these individuals. There's thousands of individuals at a camp. It's like a daycare. There's no fence. We could literally run away to grab food and phones or whatever. And everyone, no one cares, no one bats and I. This isn't prison. Right.

It just doesn't make sense. And then it's just this big money-making machine that is just, you know, that's what the government is just making money off of people being in this facility. that's just not even needed to begin with. It doesn't add up. Well, it adds up when you add the dollars and cents and see who's profiting. But not from a rehabilitation. No, not at all.

Doesn't make sense. Not at all. How long were you a housing cop for? So, 97, 98, 99, 2000, and then I became an undercover in narcotics. How did you get that gig from going from housing to that? I knew I, so my stepdad was a detective. So all I'm hearing in my ear is you got to get the gold shield. You got to get the gold shield.

You got to get off patrol. And that's how you'll be able to do the most good. That's how you'll be able to end. And by the way, it's much better than sitting in a car handling radio runs every night, listening to people's woes on a repetitive best. I only had to listen to four or five woes. And the negativity aspect of that is compounding. All you're dealing with people is drama and toxicity.

for and it's sad and heartbreak and you got to look at the victims from the victim's perspective so uh get the shield get the shield how do you get the shield the fast as possible volunteer to be an undercover because nobody wanted to do the job based on the level of risk that uh that you took on um so uh when the movie training day is coming out same time so 2000 let's look we could look it up training days coming out I'm in school to be an undercover and they take you out in the field with there was a bunch that we call

them the super undercovers like the old timers and they took you up in the Washington Heights they took you up they took you out in the Bronx they took you out and the best is when I got assigned as an undercover my first assignment was nightclubs and my second assignment was Washington Square Park which is like drug buying 101 right

who couldn't go to the park and get done me sometimes but i was afraid that was the problem i couldn't i couldn't step to three motherfuckers on a corner without fucking and then they're like what's wrong with you you should be a fucking head you shouldn't be afraid you should be able to just yo let me get too and i'm like let me go let me get too what's wrong with you motherfucker i don't want no you know i i just didn't have it so uh i fake the funk for as long as I could, but I was in nightclubs. It was fun. It was good.

Some good people along the way that you meet. Give us a good undercover story. Oh, man. So Washington Square Park. My old partner, his name is George. I won't give his last name. Black guy. Funny as hell.

Big guy, right? So he was out there. I liked working with him the most because I felt safe with him. Like I knew he was out there. Because the team I was on, there were guys on the team that were picking up girls when they should have been watching the undercovers. Right?

So he was out there, we had fun. So he's like, come on. And his tongue was fucking big. He's like, yo, I'm going to get you done today, meaning you're going to buy. You're going to make a buy. He's like, yo, go hit that motherfucker right there. So I go walking up, I'm like,

yo, let me get two. he's like pick up your shirt I'm like what do you mean pick up my shirt so I pick up my shirt and I had the fucking microphone wire I go to pick up the shirt and I thought I grab the wire and I pick up my shirt all the way

and the fucking mic is hanging right there he's like what's that I'm like motherfucker so I had the right guy to right time and I still didn't get done so I got made fun of a lot when I was out of cover I mean, I made buys here and there, but I didn't care about it.

I didn't care to. It was like I took the job for the wrong reason. And then, but we were in nightclubs. There was none of that. Then I had fun. It's like, we could do this. Come on, it's by an ecstasy, and sound factory and exit. Remember those clubs?

Do you ever hear about those clubs? I've heard a sound factory, yeah. 46th Street and 56th Street between 9th and 10th and 11th, I think. 10th and 11th, night and 10th. One night we did one club, one night we did the other club. And you're just going in as a normal patron? Yeah, what happened was, I guess, the wrong person's kid was overdosed in a nightclub. And the club put the kid in a closet until 6 a.m. when they closed, 7 a.m.

And then snuck them out to a private ambulance. And they took them to, and I think the kid died. So they did a, they formed a club. club team and I was selected to be on the club team from undercover training so that's where I started so I went from undercover training right onto the club team

oh I got a good story as to why I got off the club team and then federal marshal status like whatever you wanted they gave you we got a Mazda 626 was big at the time so we were able to go to the impound lot we took a Mazda a freaking driving it around XTC pulled up to the club

in that? Do the bouncer know that you guys? Okay. So you don't show badges or anything? Undercover is never identify yourself as a cop. You have fake ID, fake drivers, a real fake driver's license, a real from DMV, whole fake

identity. And once you make the buy in the club, does that one... Leave them out. No, because we were doing a case. This was good shit, right? This is like, all right, we're not getting an idiot selling, drive in the club we're getting the fucking person bringing it in that and then

Christmas party the EA the Union throws a Christmas party I'm on the team everything's fine it's Christmas where we're all having fun we're down of the restaurant down a Wall Street somewhere down there Italian place forgot the name of it Ninos or Toro or something like that I'm with my team the bar is here, the front door is there. I'm with my team over here. There's one of those high top tables. We're all standing around. We're laughing. I'm standing here. Everybody's this way, the walkway, and then the bar. A girl, a young girl, 16, 17 years old, I guess worked at the restaurant, a family owned, come storming by me crying. I go, whoa, you okay? And she's like,

Boom, storms past me and I guess heads to the office. So the problem came from further into the restaurant. And I have all detectives there witnessing this. The union delegate of the trustee or the secretary of the union. Just call him Rick. Taps me on my shoulder. I'm with all the guys. And go, Vin, you got to go.

Some girl, some young girl, underage girl just said you grabbed her ass. everybody just said Rick no we saw her run by here he asked her if she was all right so the problem came from so I just said I wasn't even a detective at the time I was still a white shield a police officer on the track to get promoted so I go Rick be a detective and go find the right guy because for me to walk out of here grab an underage girl's ass I'm going to be known as a bar brawl drunk. Long before I'm going to be known as a fucking pedophile. So be a

detective and go find the right fucking guy. Comes back and he goes, she's adamant at you. I go, there's fucking six witnesses. You're putting me in a very tight position here. I'm not going anywhere. I'm getting agitated a little bit.

Sure enough, fucking the guy who really did it was like, get the fuck out of, get the fuck out of. He throws a punch at me. I slipped a punch. I fucking push them through one of those bifold doors. Now I'm a problem, right? I'm a problem.

Because detectives couldn't fucking find the right fucking guy or try to set me up as a patsy. That shit happens too. I get back to the office. I'm off the fucking coveted club team. And you were still able to get promoted to detective after that? Yeah, because they couldn't make an issue of it because I would have said,

you got the wrong fucking guy. And there's no way I was leaving there. with everybody thinking, I'm a molester. I don't need the fucking grab a girl's ass. I'm not the fucking fat ugly dude. That has to grab a fucking girl's ass if they want to grab a girl's ass. But they kick you off the team but still promote you anyway. They kick me off the team because the union said, how could we fuck this guy?

But then they give you a promotion. And then I got promoted. I was put, and then that's when I was put with my partner George. How long were you on undercover for? So I was promoted. I was assigned to narcotics, I guess, 2000. It was all there during 9-11. And then after 9-11, two detectives, two undercovers are murdered in Staten Island,

on a drug, buying guns. I worked with one of them. And the narcotics division at the time, they kept undercovers, undercover longer than they were contractually obligated. So they decided to flip into an investigator. So now you get your shield back. You never lost it, but now you display it as opposed to never displaying it.

So you're the guy putting the cuffs on as opposed to the guy buying the drugs. They flipped whoever wanted to be flipped, and I wanted to be flipped because, like I said, I was afraid. And I could admit that now, but I'd never admitted that back then. And you got your gold badge. Yeah, I got, while I was an undercover, I was promoted. Oh, it's a detective. The detective, yeah.

Okay, so while you were going through that, and when they pushed you out, they still left you as a detective. Yeah. So what, you were in narcotics as a detective? Narcotics, yeah. So then you talk about quotas, this is the fucked up part. I mean, what's done is done, but you can't undo it. We were arresting, for the most part, people smoking marijuana.

And looking back, now that it's decriminalized, all those fucking people that I arrested for petty nonsense, just because they wanted arrests, and they were giving you overtime for them. So they would reward you with overtime? Not reward. I guess allow overtime, so you had enough time to process the arrest,

but incentivize arrests, right? They forced you to make them with quotas. They really couldn't give you quotas as a narcotics team because you would just get reassigned back to patrol if you didn't make arrests. You wanted to make arrests, and you got accustomed to a lifestyle making pretty much double what you would have normally made

had you not made all that overtime. So now they got you. You develop a lifestyle, you develop bills, where that overtime is almost needed and you're 100% wrong in doing so. You're 100% wrong in building a lifestyle dependent upon money that you're not guaranteed to make every month.

So at any time they can cut off the overtime, which they do. And then you're like, in financial hell. Then you've got to go into debt. Your kids and your kids' tuition or soccer camp or whatever that you can't, ruin your kid's life, right?

So back to the whole system. How does the whole system's fucked? It's designed not for people to win. Did you ever feel bad about making a rust for weed when you would sell weed yourself in high school? No. You justify it in a way. I feel bad now, yeah, looking back, but I needed.

We needed to find, it's like, if you couldn't find the self, which we did every now and then, but you had to take what you can take because you'll never get that overtime again. I'm writing a book and it's a big part of that is. If I could go back and tell young cops don't take the overtime, although it's really easy to take it and have that extra money, it's addictive. and you're going out to ruin people's lives. Like you're set out to ruin someone's life today. Now, hopefully those persons are meant to be arrested or deserve because they broke. And these crimes actually have victims.

Like I said, without quotas, there's enough laws on the books. you're going to stumble into those two arrests every month. You're going to stumble into them. Whether you see somebody swerving on the street, they're probably drunk while you're driving. Right? That's an arrest. D-U-I. I don't have a problem arresting somebody for D-U-I because I could potentially save a life.

I don't know. But have I driven drunk? Stupid. Why do a lot of the higher-ups in the police force deny there being quotas? They're illegal. They're illegal and they're being forced to do what they have to do. So back to that uncle, Uncle Tony, he told me a lot about the police department. Like, you can't trust.

You've got to be careful who you can trust because those people were hooked on overtime too at one point. Would you consider this corruption? Quoters are 100% corruption. or it's no it's illegal so if it's forced if you're the law enforcement and you're doing something that's illegal but nobody and everybody that's retired will say it nobody on the job will say it because they got to work there so if it's illegal and they're being forced to do it is it corruption just call it what you want but it's not right where do you think it stems from who does it come from Is it coming from the mayor?

Is it coming from the governor? How about this? You're going to like this one. Let's talk specifically about moving violations. I'll ask you a question. You get a speeding ticket. What happens to your insurance? It goes up.

Who profits? The insurance company. Who lobbies for quotas? The insurance company. Through who? Through. The police foundation. Police foundation is another entity that's fucked.

up. And I'm happy to out them as well because although they may do good, the bad that they do outweighs the good significantly. And you've seen this firsthand. No. No, that's why. And who do you go to? Even if you have and you have the evidence, who you go to. But it is believable that an insurance company would lobby. 100%. They lobby every day. Why wouldn't they? So back to, I brought up the Being a six-year-old, knowing why the store was burnt out, because they didn't pay the insurance. They didn't pay to prevent the fire. Who does that now? Insurance companies.

You can't operate without insurance. You can't have your business. So back then, you could have your business without insurance. Only in the wrong neighborhood, you have to pay the people to leave your business alone. So whether it be fire insurance, unemployment insurance, because your people's late. got broke before they got to work so now they can't work it's the same shit it's organized crime so why do officers allow this to happen the quotas I don't believe they know well they because they don't want that shit assignment and they took the

job and they didn't know what they were getting into but if everyone says they're not doing it you know there's more strength in numbers why isn't that a thing I think the unions would have to get involved at that point and do you think they want to get involved no I don't believe they will I think uh There's issues at bay with like annuity funds, for example, that have the unions kind of hamstring. How long were you a narcotics detective for? Uh-huh. Get into that story.

So 2001 to, I think 2003-4, February, February 2004, I'm engaged. buying a house I'm in narcotics I'm making good overtime I just bought the new G35 coop at the time Was that infinity It was like the second year out

It was 2003 At the time So I just had in that And we're buying a house In Belmore Long Island We're in Red Hook And We're arresting

We're watching the Red Hook Projects From the roof of an adjacent building with binoculars. I'm in a minivan, like with kids travel to soccer games in, soccer balls in the back. I'm in a minivan acting as a prisoner van, and we're arresting people going into the projects

to purchase crack. So from a mental aspect, now I'm doing what I signed up to do. We were able to get in to the projects, dressed badly, dressed like a bum, get to the roof, and stay up with binoculars and be able to call a working drug set out. So we were arresting crackheads, people buying crack. So we're on the set. The sergeant and the arresting officer has to be the one observing the infract, the law being broke. So they're on the roof.

Me and one other guy, that's it, four people. Now, for you to do this type of operation, you should at least have six people. The leader, the arresting officer, two people in the chase car, which that was my role, and then two people in the prison van, prisoner van, which that was also my role. So we were the prisoner van slash chase car. We went out on a short team. First of all, first mistake. First guy gets in the van, he's good.

No problem. All right, it's been here before. We know the guy. I was a housing cop in those projects. Now I'm back in narcotics, so I know these people. people. We get them with going to jail for crack. Possession of. Criminal trespass at the very least. Second guy. He doesn't go so easy. So now my partner stays with the one guy. I go to get the second guy. Second mistake. You never split up with your partner, right? You go and make an arrest

there's two people, but we can't leave one in the van without this guy starts running and fighting. I run. Our partner leaves the guy in the van, runs. We get that guy. By the time we get back to the van, where's the first guy? In the wind. That was when the police commissioner Ray Kelly was automatically suspending people for lost prisoners, escaped prisoners, without hesitation, without reason, suspended. Buying a house, going from renting to owning, new G35, engaged.

I'm accustomed to that overtime. Done. Suspended. 32 days, no pay. Modified assignment. No gun, no shield for seven months, which is short in comparison. Where do I get assigned? The counterterrorism division.

putting together emergency response kits, the COBRA kits, the after 9-11, every officer had to have a mask, had to have decontaminating things. So that was my job, organizing and distributing all of the counterterrorism purchased material to the police department, and learning how to set up secure perimeters for things like the Republican National Convention that happened that year. I think that was like 0, 4, 05. Did you get reinstated as a detective? Seven months later, I was assigned to the Detective Bureau. So that's why I left narcotics.

I was actually doing something I liked where I was helping people in an assignment. Things were going good until they did. So then you go from narcotics detective to just a regular detective? To a detective assigned to a police precinct that handles... that precincts open cases, shootings. I started out doing robberies and burglaries, investigating robberies and burglaries in Canarsie. So I go from housing all in Brooklyn South

to Manhattan South narcotics. I was then reassigned to Brooklyn South narcotics because my lieutenant, who I worked for in housing, made captain and he was looking for undercovers. So I went there working with him. He's like, come work with me, it'll be fun. I had a great partner in Brooklyn South. and then

counterterrorism for seven months and then Canarsie Brooklyn, 6-9. 6-9 precinct. What was that experience like? You learn the neighborhood from a different perspective. You get to meet more people. You get to spend more time with the community

in a one-to-one basis as a detective, whereas as a cop walking around very little limited interaction hey how are you everything all right checking in with them moving on to the next person because there were thousands of residents that you had to at least make yourself known to because that was your job was to help the community so most some people they got lost they didn't do their job they went into the record room they hung out and uh every every housing project had a record room where they were given a maintenance key

and you can go have your meal in that room. Some cops never left that room, only if their radio, call them. Sometimes I did that, but most of the time I was trying to do my job. So back in the precinct, in the detective squad, 6-9, you get a lot of nonsense.

You got to investigate lost phones, for the insurance, so the people can get a free phone. phone. So you get about 10 of those cases a month. You get the occasional shooting, occasional homicide, occasional robbery, occasional burglary. Solve those cases one of the time. Figure out, that's where you, I guess, the best part, the best takeaway for that experience was the interview room when you get the guy who did it with a girl. And I never, I was never mad.

I never was upset with someone who committed the crime. I looked at it as you had your job. I had my job. And it's not personal. I always fed everyone. When you were arrested, did you have a good relationship with your arresting officer? Or was he a dick? The Danbury cops were dicks, I would say, for the most part.

But federal agents, stand-up guys. Yeah. I try to be the stand-up. up guy. First of all, you're in a neighborhood that I have to be in. Maybe if I bought you that sandwich and you saw me getting my ass kick, maybe you'd at least call 911 on that guy. That guy was cool with me.

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calm and casual and cordial with these suspects. You have to be. You could blow the whole case. All I got to do is so there's a case that I worked had to do with a grisly beating of a girl leaving a nightclub in Manhattan. Her car was towed.

and the tow pound wouldn't give it to her because she was drunk so she finds herself stranded in Manhattan she's 18 she can't call her parents because she's not even supposed to be in the city she gets picked up by ultimately a human trafficker so a pimp somebody who intimidates women to work for them puts them out keeps them loyal because of fear alone ultimately we find her too late he beat her so bad

his right hand was twice the size of his left hand that's how bad he beat this girl and she was nothing four 11 5 foot barely 100 pounds so when you get somebody like that

where the person is ultimately defenseless those are the cases you have a hard time controlling yourself somebody who hurts child which ironically enough I want to go into what's the if you were to describe any certain prisoner

guilty of a crime what would be the unsafest crime to commit if you have to be in prison an offense against a child right same with us so talk about similarities how do you how do you not

relate to a child child that your cousin, your little brother, your baby, your child? How do you not instantly empathize with that parent and understand that the only justice that this parent's ever going to see would be what I could make him feel in that short amount of time? Because the system isn't that bad if you want a cell phone, if you want drugs. Jail isn't that bad. especially if you're a gang member, you're going to be protected. You don't have anything to worry about. So what justice does that family really receive

other than the one that I could dish out that I choose not to because I want them to at least go to prison? But I don't want to go to prison. There's got to be something in your mind, though, that knows and is thinking that you're going to send this person to prison and they're not going to fare well in there. the pedophile only the pedophile

yeah yeah yeah I never worked on a pedophile case other than the 18 year old that was murdered but I'm saying in general just that mindset that mindset but why is that why are they treated that way

or why would a cop feel that way why let's talk about the why are they treated that way in prison I mean it's a the worst crime you can imagine you know a crime against a child a crime against a woman

but that's just that it that's what it is you know it's the worst crime possible so getting back into the system and how corrupt the system is if drugs are allowed in there and cell phones are allowed in there and beatings are allowed in there and people are allowed to get shanked in there if you had leverage on someone like Jeffrey Epstein leverage where you're You have video of someone engaging in acts with a minor. How controlled, how controllable is that person? Because they can't go to prison. Because they're going to get, what happens to them?

What happens to pedophiles in jail? Did they get stabbed in the chest 20 times? I mean, I don't think if Epstein lived, I don't think a guy like him has a bad time in the feds. Right. No, but I'm talking about the people that are leveraged. they're so controlled because an occasional

set up that we know to occur where people plant evidence and shit would your ultimately if I planted cocaine in your car and tipped the cops off and they pulled you over and arrested you for cocaine and you went to jail and you were a pedophile I just ultimately killed you

with a tip I committed murder with a tip because you're a pedophile and you go to jail as a pedophile, you're getting killed. So that's why they use, that's why Jeffrey Epstein case is so fucking toxic because all the people that he has leveraged

are pedophiles. Do you think he killed himself? I don't think he killed himself, no. If you didn't have that videotape go out for that amount of time, that's bullshit. There's no way. Come on. I'd love to talk to the union and the detectives, the correctional officers that were on that block.

I'd love to interview them. That thing smells like shit. And, go ahead. What would be the first thing you would look at from a detective's run? I talked to all people on that block. Who'd they see there? Would they see? Who else was there that they had to kill that video?

I look at things when to investigate his brain. That was my best take from being in the detective bureau. I got lied to on every fucking interaction. So you learn when people lie to you. And you learn when shit just doesn't smell right. And you learn people. Every interaction in that interview room was a lesson on humanity, on human nature, on truth.

So talk about the Epstein shit, talk about Bosnia, talk about, it's hard to, and not just me, it's hard to fool anyone that did my job as a detective in New York City. Maybe the guy in Omaha, Nebraska, is a little easier to fool just because he didn't have the volume of people trying to bullshit me every day for 15 years. How would you tell as a detective when someone's lying to you when they're in that interrogation, room. The first 50 questions I asked you, I know the answer to you. So I'm going to learn whether you're lying to me or telling me the truth just by eye movement. That swallow, look for that

swallow. You know that swallow. You learn that swallow when you were a kid, when you got caught to whatever with your parents. And they got your debt to rights and they're asking you, do you tell the truth or do you fucking hold tight? You get that. You. You're, you're You see that Adams out? It's harder with women because they don't have that. I can't, it's harder to tell. But men, you see that little fucking nub go up and down. I got sweat, eye movements, not look at me in the eye, looking away when you tell.

Look at me in the eye when you tell certain things. It's just, it's by sheer volume alone. That's it. Nothing more. And if you don't learn, you shouldn't be doing the job. How do you know when to go along with their lives? to call them out on it. When you think you've gathered all the information that you could ultimately gather,

and then my line, my favorite line, after it was all over, I'd stand up, I'd ask you, can I get you anything to eat, drink, cigarettes? And then I'd say something like, do me a favor. I want you to think about that again and at least tell me a story that at least you believe. Because I ain't buying that shit. And I don't fucking hate you for that because it's human nature to be, to have self-preservation. It's psychology. You lie to your parents because you didn't want to get put to bed early.

I'd rather get put to bed early than go to jail. So I don't know how I would act. I'd have the best lies one could think of because I know what questions to fucking ask. But I'd still be lying to save my ass. And that's human nature. And I don't fault anyone for that. Now let's get back into why you did the crime. And I'd like to solve the problem.

How often do you see someone remorseful for their actions? 50%. And that's because I think those people understand it's better to be remorseful than hold a lie because you might get leniency in court. Or you're just a good person. and you got victim of circumstance. Do you ever feel bad? Yeah, I have. Like I said, I was that guy that always,

I tried to have the best relationship possible unless you were a scumbag and you just fucking, unless you fought me. Right? And even after you fought, if you apologize, that was your attempt on self-preservation. And guess what? I won.

Or maybe you got away. And you won that time. don't be mad at the cop next time for catching you because you already have a win right i want to i want to repair the relationship between the police and the community because it's not the cops writing these laws that are arresting you for they just signed up for that job because it was a civil service job and it was some fucking security for someone to do a little bit better for themselves

and they had no clue what fucking job they were signing up for all the bullshit all of the negativity. No, you think you're trying to do good. You think you signed up because you wanted to do better. So it's why I left the job, because all I understand was I'm just feeding the fucking fire. Feeding the fuel, putting more people in jail. Come on. For what? Who's the victim? You never saw me work harder if there was a real victim. A real victim that was hurt. You wanted me on your case. if you lost your cell phone I didn't even look at that fucking complaint report I used to pay a cadet

$5 a case to type out the standard fucking canvas interview and fucking closing reports and get that fucking thing out of my way because I wasn't about the bureaucracy I was about helping people and realizing how fucked up the job could be

and the bureaucracy of it and when you try to fix it and you get shut down it's it made it real easy for me to leave early. But I want to get back to the part about quotas. So I didn't have a moving violation quota. And every time I pull someone over for an offense like speeding or failure to signal, I pulled that person over and gave them a,

warning in exchange for the next story that they told at a family function should be the time the cop fucking let you go with a warning as opposed to the scumbag who gave you fucking 10 tickets because more cops are like me that want to repair the relationship and took the job for the right reasons only got stuck with these fucking tasks that nobody likes so when you talk to fund the police. You're taking the people off the street that are supposed to help that old woman who's afraid to walk in her

building. And you're also but you're not taking away the guy writing 30 fucking summons as a month because that guy paid for his whole salary that month. Got a cop for free. Writes his own salary every month.

Think about that. Free cop for the city's perspective. They don't want paying the bill. Do you think that there's been too many smaller rules created, which is causing a lot of these problems? There's so many laws on the books that need to... Oh, where for cops? Well, the laws, yeah. There's so many laws on the books that need to come off.

They're so antiquated. We really are... Thanks to 9-11, things got a hell of a lot worse, too, as far as our freedoms go. but we really need to start fixing the problems that are causing crime and targeting the people bringing our drugs into our country it's why we can't fix the immigration problem right if we made it easy for people to come legally the cartels wouldn't have mules crossing the border with fentanyl up their rectums talk to anybody that crossed the border that isn't afraid to share their story they'll tell you

that's what's happening and that they have to spend $18,000 to come here. They have to spend $18,000 to pay the cartel to come here so they could be a mule and then they go work hard every day for cash that they have to send half back to the cartel. But we can't fix our immigration problem. That's why. And if we really wanted to fix problems, we could solve a lot of crime because those people here committing crime that aren't supposed to be here wouldn't have the opportunity to commit crime because they wouldn't be here.

And if they were here, they'd want to not go to jail because they're here legally. But the problem is they don't want to fix the problem. They want to just perpetuate it. Racism is perpetuated. Sorry to say, I grew up,

I was in an all-black high school. I don't hate black people. They rob my sneakers, fucking once a month. I try to help them. black people. That woman was black. 80-year-old woman when I first got on my post and I'm like, ma'am, I'm going to do everything I can. And I'm like, ma'am, there's nothing I can do. There's nothing I can do. And that's the system in general. I think it also doesn't help, though, with a lot of these shootings, the police-involved shootings.

It is members of the opposite race. It is people of different races and culture. and colors that these things are happening and it's causing a lot of divide. Yeah. Absolutely. Like I said before, if we tested for fight or flight, I equate it like this, think about football, quarterback, focused, locked in, confident, throwing off his front foot, two likely outcomes. Complete pass, which is good, an incomplete pass.

which is not good but not terrible. So out of the not fearful, confident mentality, most likely something, a good outcome will come of it. Think about the opposite. A quarterback on the run, throwing off his back foot,

two likely outcomes, incomplete, which is still not bad, or interception, which is the worst thing that could happen to a quarterback, right? You give up your set of downs

and if they score. That comes out of fear. Fight or flight is inherent in all of us. We're either fight or flight. There's no middle ground, right? Composure can help that. Composure is your ability to manage emotions, especially fear.

That's the hardest one to manage. When somebody's engaged and confident, they're likely to exude command or you're likely to give that person a little bit more respect. One, because they're keeping their cool, they're calm, emotions are contagious. So if I'm calm, chances are your calm. If I'm afraid, you could be afraid or you could take advantage of that because you're not afraid and you could try to intimidate.

And that's a bad situation too, because the cop should have authority. You should comply with the police officer because that's the power they were given. by the people who write these laws that we should really be mad at, not the cops for just doing their job. And then not the cops because maybe they weren't properly qualified to have the job because they're flight. And cops would be the only scared people that chase anyone. If you look at nature, animals attack mostly because they want to eat. They're not afraid.

They're hunters. They're going to hunt. you never see anyone chase someone that's afraid of the person they're chasing. Think about a cop in that situation. Aside from quotas, what are some other issues that no one addresses that you took issue with, which caused you to leave the force? Just the whole not really helping the problem. Just the whole perpetuating the, the, uh, perpetuating the, uh, the, the, uh, the, the, uh, the, the

machine to keep moving in the same direction. And what the definition of insanity is, you keep doing the same thing over and over. It's like, all right, done that. What else could I do? I moved around a lot. I changed assignments. I became a hostage negotiator. I was afforded that opportunity, and that was a plus on the job. That was where I understood fight or flight. You give me a little psychology lesson with a little bit of understanding why everything is happening the way it's happening. And we're really not helping anyone. And then you understand the psychology of it all. And it's like, I got to go.

I need a change. And then you get into, you want to leave police yet? Do you want to move off of police? Or do you want to stay on the police subject? No, keep going. Move on to my next life, right? I leave the NYPD. I vested, retired.

I had three years military buyback. So I left with an 18-year pension at 15 years. It was a very easy decision for me, but I was given a very good opportunity to tour the world. with the Rolling Stones as one of their security. Now, I'm doing good, right? I'm able to do a job that I can handle confidently

because I no longer was that scared kid. I developed into a confident, composed, and I got to say the Army helped with that a lot, confident, composed individual who kind of, like, commanded respect. In a different capacity, capacity totally. I just had to keep the rock stars safe so they could perform and the show could go on and everybody on tour could get paid. So I really wasn't working for the stones. I was kind of working

for everybody on tour because if one of them got hurt, the show gets canceled. Everybody loses a great opportunity. So, but what did I have to do? I had to stop paparazzi from taking photos when they had a fork in their mouth full of fucking pasta. That's all I had to do, or anybody. They didn't want that photo. So what I do, I carry guitar picks, and I'd see, and then you see the people, like, they pull up their phone, and you see their arms go like this,

and then they pick up the phone like that, and they're looking down, and they're looking up, and I'm like, or I put my camera on the phone, and I'm like, not now. And I go over, take a fucking guitar pick that the only way you got him is when they threw them into the audience and you fucking call him.

I say, here. But you'd much rather have a photo standing next to them outside than them still have a fork in their fucking face. So if you're still around, when we leave, I promise you, I'll give you a photo. That was my way of doing my job. Helping that person who,

that's their, like, idol. Like, holy shit, Mick Jagger, holy shit, Ronnie Wood or Keith Richards. And the best part was, Keith especially, if we did anything wrong to those fans, we were out of a job because he's like, if it wasn't for them, you wouldn't have a job, or would I? And it was fun. You've probably seen some crazy things on tour with them. A lot of people, a lot of fun, a lot of good times. Five years around the world.

And then I opened up a PI agency, right? I think I'm doing good there. Oh my God. So now this ties into you even more. I worked for some well-known defense attorneys. How many clients did they fuck over, allowing them the rotten prison, allowing the attorney general at the time,

Schneiderman, to send in detectors from the U.S. attorney's office, sorry, from the New York State Attorney General's office, to someone in Rikers, who's got legal representation, So you can't speak to that one out to a lawyer president. I learned that in the police academy. I tell the attorney this.

And they're like, so what? I'm like, what do you mean so what? They just violated his fucking rights. So what? There's a hundred more hours here. What? I told that guy to go fuck himself. I told every attorney that I wound up working with

at one point or another that I'd go fuck themselves on behalf of their clients whom they were fucking. So, like I said before, I became a cop for the right reasons because I wanted to help. You can't be a cop for the right reasons and then go work for the defense. Because even though that client committed a crime, that client deserves an attorney that isn't trying to fuck them. And that guy, I don't want to say any names because I didn't tell him I'd be saying this, but I'm on the phone with him every now and then. So this is somebody, a criminal, that I connected with, and his crime wasn't terrible, white collar shit,

but somebody, some powerful being, wanted that guy to take a plea. So they sent two detectives from the AG's office and forced him to take a plea. I had a corrections officer. Come to me and say, you should have seen what they did of this guy. I've never seen anything like that before. And even the corrections don't he said, and shouldn't that guy's attorney be here? So I get out of working for attorneys because I didn't have the stomach.

I didn't have the stomach for that. I wouldn't have the stomach for being a military contractor. I really just wanted to help. Do good. Have fun. You know, I try to make the best of every situation I find myself in. And believe it or not, when it comes, to the gruesome things that we would experience as a mostly a detective homicides, dead bodies,

suicides. You had to laugh. You had to find humor in that situation. Or at the end of your 20 years, or 15 for me, you'd be fucking eaten up from all the gruesome shit that he saw, all the negativity. Back to, if I could ask you a question, short of taking away everyone's rights in prison, right, and locking everyone down. And maybe, I think what you suggested, assignment, criminal assignment based on crime committed, what got us to how open and how many rights the prisoner has because if we take it from a gang recruitment perspective how do we prevent the gang recruitment

I guess you're making it less accessible for inmates to interact interact but then you get the ACLU involved and I'm going here for a reason right American Civil Liberties Union

we have to and I'm not about taking rights away for prisoners, but I'm about stopping gang recruitment. If we know it's allowed to happen, and the ACLU is the reason it's happening, and they forced it that way, and that's the reason why these policies are in effect mostly because of the ACLU, is that a coincidence? Is it a coincidence that the projects were designed to breed crime and put those kids in that prison for the ACLU to allow them to be recruited into a gang to go back to their neighborhood and

be in said gang and commit the crime and ultimately go back to prison? It can't be a coincidence that all these things are occurring in unison, complementing each other. How do we fix it? We got to figure out who's controlling it, who's organizing it, who's allowing it to happen. As an investigator, you asked me, where would I start? I'd start with the ACL. ACLU and let them understand that their policies are allowing these kids to be recruited into gangs. I'd start with the wardens and make the wardens personally responsible for every fucking member that's recruited into a gang under these laxed policies. But I don't want to take the privileges away from the people who got caught up for victim of

circumstance. I don't want that kid to have a terrible fucking prison sentence because they got suckered into committing a crime in the projects or anywhere else or you, but it's easy to point out who's responsible and how do we stop it? And I think your show, that's why I wanted to come on this show, I think of enough people start talking about it and understanding there are ways to fix it,

but until the right people want it fixed and stop perpetuating crime, criminality, gangs, allowing this shit to happen, allowing the drugs to come into the prisons, let alone into our cities and suburban neighborhoods and city neighborhoods through the border. I'm a New York City detective.

Almost all of my brothers and sisters can figure this shit out. I'm not the only one. And we know how to fix it. And we're investigators. And you can't make me scratch my head. I'm going to figure out why the fuck I'm scratching it. I'm sorry.

They made this. They made me. They gave me a shitty job to do when I did it. And I fucking got sick of it. But all those skills that I learned, I really want to fix the problem. And I think... There aren't many guarantees in life.

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People like you could really help and make a difference. And I think the champ might be able to help too. Do you feel like that's a shared sentiment? along a lot of the retired law enforcement. Everybody I speak to that's retired. They all know it was a circus. So you miss the clowns, you don't miss the circus because it's a fucking circus.

It really is. And we're not doing the job that we were hired or tasked to do. We're not, you walk out of your house. I used to yell at the traffic agents. I used to live on 62nd between first and second. Right off the 59th Street Bridge comes down, you go to First Avenue,

so when that goes that way. And there'd be a traffic agent. Every day writing everybody in front of my house. I would yell at that traffic agent. You just ruined that person's day. They probably don't have the money in their budget to pay for that. So now they're not eating. Stop writing your fucking tickets.

And I do my detective shield on my belt and my suit jacket over my shoulder and my gun on my hip. And hopefully they fucking listened. And most of the time, they just look at me and go, put it on the car. But we're in a society that wants to fuck the citizen. And aren't we the people that are supposedly in control of our country? We the people?

We the people are getting fucked. You got fucked. What's something you wish you did different in your career, looking back on it? I know something I wish I didn't do. and it's another mistake that I made along the way I made a few

Christmas Eve I'm sorry New Year's Eve 2015 2016 New Year's Eve 2016 2015 a group of people come up to me

and say can you let me into Times Square we want to get closer to the And if you didn't get there at 4 p.m., you weren't getting into those pens. Have you ever been down at Times Square from the years? I'd stay far away from that. You're a smart man.

So the first time I opened the gate, I let them into a pen. That pen was so full I couldn't. So the second group of people saw me do it. They were like, can you let us in? So I opened up a fence, not realizing it wasn't to a pen, that it was to the intersection. And it was probably the mistake of my career. and I never got in trouble for it, but it helped me leave the police department.

So I wish I didn't do that. Anything I wish I did, I don't know, help more people. I wish I had, being a hostage negotiator, I was the most rewarding time. Give us a story from being a hostage negotiator. One of the jobs that I was on was an 18-year-old mother. holding an 18-year-old 18-month-old infant son at knife point with a Michael Myers-style butcher knife. You know the cleaver for four hours like this?

We know this because we were able to put cameras in the apartment, and we had someone on an adjacent rooftop with binoculars, maybe even a sniper scope. four hours and it's hot it's like a September hot day hot September day she's a delusional not on earth she's speaking about a Queenie Queenie is her aunt Queenie's in the hallway trying to kill her baby her name was Princess and the child's name was Prince so Prince Princess Queenie. Four hours go by. Not a budge, screaming, ranting and raving, and raving to the point where even the commanding officer of the hostage team takes over.

And he's by far the most experienced hostage negotiator on the planet. By sheer volume alone, the number of requests he's received are far outweigh anybody. So you talk about psychology and negotiations and empathy and put yourself in her position right then. You got to think she's been on her feet pacing for four hours, holding a, how old is an 18-month-old baby, 20 pounds, 18 pounds, whatever, holding, let's say 15 pounds for four hours. I can't do that. So you know she's tired. You know it's hot. You know she's hungry.

So all the while, while we're not making progress, but we're still dropping breadcrumbs, saying things like exhausted, hot, stuffy, heavy, tired to get her to eventually walk away from the window, put the baby on the bed because we're going to plan for a tactical intervention. tactical meaning we have emergency service in the hallway with the big ballistic shield, the helmets, and a tool, I don't know the name of it, but it's a big Y on a pole. It's a metal that you could push out like that, and ultimately you could just pin you against the wall while they have the shield so you could be out of the knife swing. And that's what we did.

And the only reason why I tell that story is because it's the only story where we didn't get the proverbial win where they come out to us and we want them to come out to us that's when we could ensure no one gets hurt the officers or the hostage taker or the hostage so we have to four hours of speaking to somebody that was delusional no to no avail but we say we have time and words on our side and we can control the the entire environment. Still sometimes you can't penetrate. You can't sink in.

Do you think about the ones you can't save? There hasn't, for not just me, but the entire team. I'll ask you a question. How many requests for the hostage team in New York City do you think there are per day? A lot, 100 maybe? Good guess. 30, 40. so if you do the math

there's a lot per month a lot per year if we were in dialogue if the hostage negotiation team was in dialogue on record there's only been one hostage and one hostage taker that have lost their life that's why I go back to empathy

because once you could put yourself in the other person's shoes you could understand why they're there what they're going through on probably the worst day of their life. And not just me, I bet you you can do it. I bet you anybody that has a heart or has feelings can do it. Let them understand it's not the worst day of their life. If it's a suicide, this is the permanent solution to a temporary problem.

It's a temporary problem. Let's fix it. One guy, man, it's an early Sunday morning. He's getting chased by the police. He won't pull over. He calls up 911 and he demands to speak to hostage negotiation team. I'm the guy working. I get the call.

I'm on the phone with him. And his wife, he lost his job. His wife's going to shit. They're going to lose their apartment. Can you, uh, I want you to just get these damn cops off my tail and I'm thinking they're chasing them, they're going to cause an accident,

the city's going to get sued. I look at the captain, I go, Captain, I'd like you to ask the unit that's pursuing him to give him a lot of room. Take the lights off and let's see what happens. I go, just think of it from a liability standpoint alone. He's like, I go, don't lose him. but let's give him some breathing room.

As soon as the fucking lights goes off, the guy takes a hard turn into the divider, tries to kill himself. He didn't kill himself, which is why our record is still intact, right? I don't want to be that negotiator that loses someone. So to answer your question,

we didn't lose anyone, not just me, the team, and I got to say those losses occurred early on in the existence of the team, So way back when they were just... And NYPD was the first team in existence to use speaking over tactics. And the FBI adopted their program shortly after us.

What do you think is the hardest thing about being a hostage negotiator? Listening before you speak. Most people are just trying to think of what they're going to say so they don't fuck up. Trying to be ahead. You're trying to be proactive.

You're trying to be smarter than the person in that room. But if you don't listen to the person to the problem and understand what the real problem is, you can't fix it. So my commanding officer, Jack Cambria, you got to look him up. He's got a couple of sayings that stick, but one of which is you were given two ears and one mouth for a reason. Listen twice as much as you speak and you'll never have a problem. And that works for not just hostage negotiations.

everything. What would be the biggest lesson you've learned throughout your career? If there was one defining lesson that you want to share with the audience, what would that be? Oh, man. The system is fucked up and we got to fix it. And that's kind of like why I'm on this show because I do want to, I do want to at least speak to what I know and what I've experienced and a hope that we could eventually fix the shit that's going on. Vince, I appreciate you coming on the show today. Ian, thank you very much for having me.

I wish you loads of success, and I really think your show can make a difference. Thank you. Yeah, I appreciate you being so honest and vulnerable with us and, you know, just sharing those real moments from your career and how kind of, you know, unveiling the truth to the audience. I think that's how change is created. I agree, and I thank you again. Always.