Locked In with Ian Bick - Ex-Opioid Addict on the Brutal Reality of America’s Opioid Crisis | Amanda Hall

Episode Date: March 25, 2025

Amanda Hall sheds light on the opioid crisis, her personal struggles with addiction, and her mission to help others break free. #OpioidCrisis #AddictionAwareness #TrueCrime #PublicHealth #OverdosePrevention #MentalHealthMatters #SurvivorStory #hope Thank you to LUCY & DRAFT KINGS for sponsoring today’s episode: LUCY: Let’s level up your nicotine routine with Lucy. Go to HTTP://LUCY.CO/IANBICK and use promo code (IANBICK) to get 20% off your first order. Lucy has a 30-day refund policy if you change your mind. DRAFT KINGS: New players can get FIVE HUNDRED CASINO SPINS ON A FEATURED GAME! Just sign up with code IANBICK and wager a minimum of five dollars to receive FIVE HUNDRED CASINO SPINS ON A FEATURED GAME. Connect with Amanda Hall: X: https://x.com/amandahall33?lang=en Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100004998068732 Website: https://dream.org/ Hosted, Executive Produced & Edited By Ian Bick: https://www.instagram.com/ian_bick/?hl=en https://ianbick.com/ Presented by Tyson 2.0 & Wooooo Energy: https://tyson20.com/ https://woooooenergy.com/ Buy Merch: https://convictclothing.net/collections/convict-clothing-x-ian-bick Timestamps: 00:00:00 Amanda's Journey to Connecticut 00:04:49 Growing Up in a Judgmental Community 00:09:33 Understanding Addiction and Its Impact 00:14:35 The Importance of Early Intervention and Counseling 00:19:28 Challenges of OxyContin and Addiction Recovery 00:24:38 Separation from My Children 00:29:43 Enhancing Your Nicotine Routine with Lucy 00:34:17 Overcoming Addiction and Family Relationships 00:39:34 Arrest and Detox Experience 00:44:11 Navigating the Challenges of Mandatory Drug Testing 00:48:45 First Shock of Prison Life 00:53:15 Life in a Kentucky Prison: Nicknames and Accents 00:58:00 Overcoming Incarceration: A Journey to Recovery and Education 01:02:53 Journey from Incarceration to Social Work 01:07:41 Foundations of Kentucky Smart Justice Advocates 01:12:32 Understanding the Re-entry Act for Medicaid 01:17:12 Amanda's Inspiring Journey and Best Wishes Powered by: Just Media House : https://www.justmediahouse.com/ Creative direction, design, assets, support by FWRD: https://www.fwrd.co Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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That's the real realtorms apply. Amanda, welcome to Locked in. Thanks so much for traveling. Do you still live in Kentucky now? Yeah. Okay. From the sticks of Kentucky out to Connecticut. Is this your first time in Connecticut?

I've been here once, but it was driving through to Maine. So, yeah, I stopped at a gas station before. That's my Connecticut knowledge. Well, before we dive in your store, I'd love for you to plug the organization you work for and what your role is there now. So people, you know, hear that at the top of this episode. Yeah. So I'm the senior director of national campaigns at dream.org.

Find us at dream.org. join us and I run our public health as public safety campaign. That's so cool. And we'll have the link to all that in the description of this episode too. Years ago, did you ever think you'd have that title? No. Did you think you'd be doing what you're doing now? No, I never even dreamed it.

Like, I never know. It wasn't even on my radar. It's pretty crazy how life works. Did you grow up in Kentucky? Yeah. So I grew up in Kentucky out in Appalachia. so eastern Kentucky it's actually where

Linda B. Johnson years ago started the war on poverty that's what we're famous for the county I was from and unfortunately it looks a lot like it used to you know there hasn't been a whole lot of movement so back in the day there were a lot of coal mines things of that nature since then those have shut down and unfortunately we haven't switched over to, you know, new jobs. Hopefully, you know, one day with clean energy, hopefully my community, you know, get some of those opportunities. Were your mom and dad both in the picture

growing up? Well, I grew up with just my mom. I didn't know who my dad was until I was a teenager, but we grew up in low-income housing. So this apartment complex, and unfortunately, like since I can remember, like the criminal justice system was involved in my life. Like where we lived, there was always cops coming around, always arresting people. My mom got into a little trouble and was gone for a little bit. So, yeah, we had a really tough time. She had, she was a survivor of domestic violence. and she had a lot of scars from that. And where we were, it wasn't, you know, so normalized to be divorced, to have, you know, gone through the things that my mom did to make the choices that she had.

So I always, from like a little girl, was, like, mad at the way people treated my mom, the way the system treated my mom, because she was such a good person. But she was judged so harshly. Did you have any siblings? Yeah. So I have two older brothers and two older sisters. I remember growing up, they would call me a change of life baby because my mom had me in her mid-40s.

So they were much older. They had moved out. So they kind of acted like parents too. It was a weird, you know, they were my brothers and sisters, but they definitely would tell me what to do. Did they raise you when your mom was away? Yeah, that's what I would stay with. Okay, so the state allowed that because they were old enough?

Yep, I would stay with my older sisters. And were they involved in the criminal justice world at all your siblings? No, no, no. They, interestingly enough, they got married really young, like 14, 15 years old and got married and moved out. They never got involved in the system. They're actually now. They're very religious. So, yeah, that just wasn't their story at all.

Do you think if you guys were closer in age, you might have stayed on that path, too, in the beginning? Maybe. I think that could have, I definitely think that could have been a possibility. Yeah, if I would have had them, yeah. How old were you when your mom went to prison? Well, I was in second grade, and she went to our jail. and, you know, it was horrible for me. I remember, you know, I don't think people often, like, think about how incarceration affects children

and how, like, shameful it is for them and how confusing and how the world's telling them that their parents are bad people when these are the people they love and look up to most in the world. You know, that's a really hard spot. And I remember going to my second grade class. We lived in this very small town. And my mom was in the newspaper because if you, you know, ran a stop sign. You were in the newspaper. You know, everybody has to tell it.

And I saw it sitting on my teacher's desk. And I remember just wanting to melt. You know, I was just so ashamed and embarrassed. And then that contradiction. you know, I was angry too because I loved her and she was good. Like she was a good mom. She done everything that she could, you know, like she really had, you know, being a survivor of severe trauma and what she went through. And back in those days, you know, resources just weren't a thing.

You know, it wasn't here will help you with counseling or, you know, and she did the best to like deal with that. And sometimes it was in unhealthy ways. But yeah, it was a really, really rough situation. I'm glad she wasn't gone too long. But, yeah, man, it sucks. And I think that stays with kids as they grow, like, forever. Do you think people are quick to judge you and your family because of those articles without even knowing the full story? Oh, yeah.

Of course. Of course. somewhere we lived, you know, I remember, and I lived in Appalachia. It wasn't like there was that many rich, rich people. You know, it's a lot of working class, but still, you know, kids can be cruel sometimes. So I live in housing complex called, it was Dempsey Housing. And I remember on the bus, you know, these kids, when it was our bus stop, they would call us Dempsey dumpsters, which was so silly now.

But then it was so embarrassing. You know what I mean? That's how I knew I was poor. Like I didn't know because that's all I knew, but that's how I knew. And then I knew being poor, you're not as good as, you're trash. You're not the same as everybody else. So I remember feeling judged for that. And then when she got in the trouble, feeling judge.

So, yeah, it was, yeah, it sucked. Were any of the teachers or administrators sticking up for you at all? Or do they kind of encourage it? Yeah, they were super, they were super supportive. And nobody at school ever mentioned it to me. You know, I just saw that newspaper. So I knew they knew. Yeah, so they, you know, I had so many teachers, like looking back now that did give me a lot of attention.

like I was most likely to succeed in my middle school and always made really good grades and, you know, always in AP classes and even elementary I excelled. So I remember some of them being extra nice to me. And I'm always like, I wonder if that's because they knew and they, you know, wanted to look out for me. But also it was kind of a blessing that they didn't talk to me about it, but also like a curse. because nobody talked to me about it. You know, like nobody talked to me about how I felt or I wasn't able to tell anybody how scared I was

except for these two friends that I had who was going through the same thing. Like their parents had been incarcerated, their parents struggled with substance disorder and like the three of us were like best friends for years, like still are because we had each other. But there was no adult. that ever was like, hey, are you okay?

Like not ever. No, that perspective you're describing, do you think that's one of the collateral, you know, victims in the criminal justice system and even in today's world where, you know, you have a lot of people that do get arrested and their articles are put out there in negative lights and now social media more than ever

helps kind of fuel that. But we don't, you know, hear the perspectives of their kids or their family members that are in, workplaces or schools or anything like that that affects them. Yeah, absolutely. I know that affects the kids. You know, my kids have been affected by my incarceration and having to see that. And, yeah, I mean, I'm sure it's a lot like I felt like shame and hurt.

And it made me feel even more different. And, yeah, it's a huge collateral consequence, and it really hurts our children. At that age, did you know what addiction was? Did you know what your mom was dealing with? Did you know any of that? No, no. Like, I had no clue what addiction was. I remember I started kind of learning it because of Dare.

I don't know if you remember Dare. Yeah, of course. But then that was so extreme. And so, you know, people under the bridge or people. people, you know, are going to be on the corner and give you, you know, that wasn't happening. Yeah, it's like the cliche drug addiction. Yeah. So then I was still confused. Like this. What is this? You know, so, yeah, there wasn't like the intricacies about it or, you know. So I'd heard about it because there, but it was something that I didn't understand was very different than what was happening in my life.

So I was like, very confused. How would people describe you as a kid? I would say quiet. I was quiet. I looked nerdy. I was a little nerdy when I was young. You know, I loved school until, like, my mid-teens. Yeah, I think that's probably how they would describe me.

What happened in your mid-teens that made you not love school? Yeah, so around then's when I. started to experiment with alcohol, with drugs. And like when I did that, all of that stuff that was bottled up, you know, that shame, that hurt, that anger, it just quit. You know, it was quiet. And I always felt like it was so loud. So I liked it.

And then in my mid-teens, I was sexually assaulted. and that was just another huge thing that I didn't talk about it. I didn't report it. You know, I felt like it was my fault because I'd been drinking. And, you know, so that really helped me, you know, start to experiment more. And at the same time in my community, you know, my community is where OxyContin really hit. You know, like you see counties just a couple counties over on shows like Dopesick and these other, you know, big specials and things of that nature. So there was oxy cotton everywhere.

And we're all experimenting. People would bring it to school like it was just, it was everywhere because everybody's parents were coal miners and, you know, like you get hurt doing that kind of work. And I got in a car accident. and I was prescribed Xanax and hydroconone, and then later oxies. And that was, oh, that was when it was over. Because then I had this large quantity and, yeah. And do you think before that accident you already had like an addiction developing? Or was it just kind of trying things out?

Yeah, I think it was more like then I would. I wouldn't ever say it was completely recreational because I did use it for my mental health to take the anxiety, the depression away. But I wasn't using drugs, alcohol every day until, like, I had that prescription. So I'm not sure if I was like developing, you know, I don't know. Do you think you never would have tried drugs if you didn't go through or you went through with your mother and your family? No, I imagine maybe because so many people try drugs. You know, so many people try them and they're not addicted. You know what I mean?

They try drugs. That's it. You know, I was always baffled when I would see people try drugs and they're like, I don't like it. I don't like it. It makes me forget. I feel like I don't have control. That's why I did drugs, you know.

So I definitely think I would have probably still tried them. Now, I don't know if I would, my addiction would have developed so soon if I didn't have that trauma and the genetics that I have and things of that nature. But I most, I mean, I probably would have tried them along the way. What do you think would have been a substitute to the drugs, looking back on it now with everything you know? Yeah, I think early intervention. I think, in counseling and having someone to talk to learning how to cope with bad things that happen, like learning and developing confidence in myself. And I think those things would have went like a long way, a long way.

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Now, once you got into the accident, you were prescribed dioxies. Did they keep prescribing them to you? Yeah. So that doctor actually got in trouble because, you know, he was prescribing medicine everywhere. So around this time also, there was this big thing in Florida. The doctor shopping? Yeah. So you could go to Florida.

And by the end, I had turned 18. So you would have people, some older people that I did drugs with by this time. You know, because if my prescription ran out, which it did in a couple days, I was out buying drugs. I was getting them however I could. But these odor folks would do something called sponsor you. So they would pay for you. They would take you to Florida, pay for you to go to the doctor. And then you gave them a cut of the pills.

And then you kept their ass. So this was just great. And you could go to more than one doctor. and you only had to go in and get this MRI. There was like nothing wrong with me, for real, for real. You know what I mean? But the MRI would say, you know, one of my discs or whatever. So I use that thing.

And yeah, I go to the doctor. Sometimes I would sponsor people if I had the money so I could try to keep my, you know, my stash, try to keep what I needed. Yeah. How are you taking the oxies? Were you just like swallowing them or did you actually snort them? Yeah. At first it was swallowing them and then snorting them and then I became an IV drug user.

So I would inject two. Oh, you can inject oxies? Does it come in like a liquid form or something? No, no. You just take the coating off. They used to have a time release coating. Put in your mouth. Take an apkin.

Take that off. put in a spoon, crush it up, add some water, filter. Wow. And how long would one to oxy last you for, like, the effect of it? It depended on the way that I used it. Like, if I swallowed it because of the time release, it would last longer, but it wasn't as intense. You know, it wasn't. And then if I injected it a few hours, but my, like, tolerance.

kept getting up there and it was starting to cost like a lot of money like I was doing a lot. So the longer that you do them, the higher your tolerance. So the less effect it has, the more you have to do. Yeah. How are you funding your habit? I would be sponsored. I would sponsor people in Florida. I would sell to my friends because all of that, like there are so many, like so many, my classmates are dead. So many are incarcerated. Because what these shows like dope sick and all of this don't tell you, you know, it shows Appalachia in these rural communities and it shows, you know, the doctors, things of that nature,

people overdosing, but also like the incarceration rates and the laws that they were passing at that time, like it was wild. Like you were getting five years for one oxycotton. You know, it was nuts. So people were dying, people were incarcerated. Yeah. Do you think that was the wrong way to handle it? Absolutely.

I think it was the wrong way. Yeah. I remember when I knew that I wanted help, you know, I was, I had one son and by like miracle like God's grace and mercy I was just able to quit. I don't know how. Obviously I was pretty sick at the beginning of my pregnancy, but I didn't tell my OBGYN that I was, you know, quitting cold turkey. But that pregnancy was fine. I had my baby, you know, and I swore like the whole time I was pregnant.

Like it was going to be different. you know like I was going to be there for him um you know I was never going to miss a t-ball game or like first steps or you know anything he ever needed he's going to like have his mom like it's going to be better like it's just going to be better I'm going to go back to college you know all these things I wanted to do um and when I had him like even though there had been that break from use I still hadn't dealt with you. anything. I still hadn't dealt with anything. And honestly, as soon as I had him, they gave me the pain medication in the hospital and it was over. You know, like, I felt good again. I felt relief

again. And I started using again. So I wanted to go to a rehab. There was no rehabs where I live. There was one that was 30 days for guys and girls. And the wait list was like six weeks long. there was another one like 45 minutes away from me it was a detox so seven to 11 days back then there wasn't Obamacare so I had to pay to go and it cost like 600 bucks which is not about you know but I went and sold drugs to get the money to go to a detox and still seven to 11 days wasn't enough. And I remember like before I left, like I didn't want to leave. Like I was scared. I was like, I still want to get high. Like I'm still like having nightmares, you know, because I had PTSD from the assault. You know, I had a lot of stuff going on. And they just said,

here, here's some AA meetings. There's one about 20 minutes away from you. I didn't have a car because I sold it for drugs. I pawned it for drugs. So the walk was forever. It's freezing cold. So I got home and I used again. Like there was no. But I kept trying.

I wanted to get better so bad. I got pregnant again. And I went on M-O-U-D during that pregnancy for a large portion of it because the doctor was scared if I. just quit, you know, that could harm the baby. Like I could have a miscarriage. Um, so I did what I was supposed to during that pregnancy. And then five months later, I had a five year old and a five month old. Um, we were in the bed, my two little boys. And, um, I was on M-O-U-D. Like I was trying to keep that up, trying to, you know, trying to do better. And, um, with a no-knock warrant, um, they busted my

doors down. My oldest son still remembers. Came in. Weapons, you know, the whole, it was a freaking SWAT team. You know, I was like 24 with these two little kids asleep and came and, you know, took me away. And I remember even saying, like, I'm on medication, like, I'm trying to be in recovery. Can I take that? And they said, they're like, no, like, you're going to jail. And, you know, honestly, like, during that time, I had tried so many times, man, to get help. Like, I had tried so many times. Yeah, and that's where I'd been to county jail a bunch, you know, like a lot, like for public intoxication. You know, and these little rural places, like, they will take you for.

They could jam me up for everything. Oh, my God. Yeah, I have enough public intoxications for, you know. But I'd never had a felony. And they wouldn't tell me, you know, at that moment, I said, what am I going to jail for? Like, what's going on? Like, it was such overkill. This big SWAT team, you know.

They're like, it's a sealed indictment. We'll tell you at the station. And I, like, remember hugging my babies. You know, they were yelling at me, like, give them to your mom, give them to your mom. Because I was staying with her at the time. and I handed them over, and then literally for years, I didn't see them. And I remember just thinking, I wish I would have held them a little tighter. I wish that I remembered what Jaden was wearing that day, how tall he was.

You know, I wish that I would have just told him what a strong, smart little boy he was. You know, because for my unconstitutional, That was the worst was being separated from them. Where was the father of your kids at that time? Well, my youngest son, his father, was actually a co-defendant. So we weren't together at the moment. So he was arrested in a different location. I got two trafficking charges.

This guy that I went to high school with it used to live with me. We weren't in a relationship. You know, we just got high together. hang out together. I had sold him an oxy cotton, well, a roxy 30. So I got five years for that. And then I got a complicity because I was in the same room when my baby's father sold a peel. So I got another five years for that.

Was he an undercover the guy you sold to? He was cooperating with them. Yeah, they paid him money. And you know what was so sad. I was so angry. Man, I was so angry at him because, like, literally when he had nowhere to go, like, I let him stay with us. And probably about a year ago, I was going up a hauler because we have those where I live. And I saw him, man, walking down the street.

He looked like he weighed about 90-some pounds. His face was sunk in. Like, he looks so bad. and like I prayed for him. You know what I mean? Like I, because while he was an informant, they were giving him money to be an informant. And he was getting high.

Like the cops were getting him high. Like, for real, for real. He would take that money and go buy drugs. Why do you think these like small towns or even states, you know, came up with this idea that, okay, you know, one pill or a few drugs equals, all these years at prison and yours was a non-violent situation. Like, I feel like a lot of our criminal justice problems are because of this thinking from years ago.

Yeah, the whole war on drugs. Here's this thinking. Because I think they're going to stop the demand, stop the supply by criminalizing folks by giving these harsh sentences. And obviously, like, we have decades of proof. to show that does not work. Our incarceration rates continue to go up and our overdose rates. So I think it's this misguided and this misguided fact that if you're an addiction, like we can just throw you away, doing that time, we'll cure it and it will all be better. Yeah, so I think it's, and I think it's people that some folks think are disposable, honestly.

Like these are folks that, you know, do drugs. They're not part of our community. Like, they're different. And it's a lot easier to lock people up or get them out of sight if, You don't want to deal with the real issues that they have. And if we could deal with those, like, those real, like, root causes and conditions, like, when I was younger, like, why I had to use drugs to not want to, you know, not want to, I don't want to set, you know, like, not be here.

Like, I couldn't be here without using drugs that hurt so bad. Like, if we could have fixed that, if somebody could have. fix that. Like in those problems, it would be a different world, for real. And if I had the resources, it would, I truly believe that's what our campaign's all about. Are you guys looking for a nicotine experience that actually keeps things fresh? Enter Lucy Breakers, the 100% pure nicotine tobacco-free pouches that put you in control of your flavor. Each pouch has a built-in flavor capsule. Just pop it open when you're ready for a burst of extra taste and hydration. I've been loving tropical mango. I'm a big mango, guys. It's got that smooth, fruity hit that

makes my nicotine routine feel way more enjoyable. And the best part, Lucy delivers straight to your door so you never have to worry about running out. Let's level up your nicotine routine with Lucy. Go to lucy.com slash Ian Bick and use promo code Ian Bick to get 20% off your first order. And if it's not for you, no worries. Lucy offers a 30-day refund policy. Again, that's lucy.co slash Ian Bick and use code Ian Bick for 20% off. And here's the fine print. Lucy products are only for adults of legal age, and every order is age verified. Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical.

A lot of the people I interviewed, they have been able to get, you know, sober in prison because they have no other options. They're kind of forced to be in that environment. So I feel like whoever came up with this thinking has the time aspect of it right, but the environment aspect of it wrong. Because a lot of these individuals, too, you're putting them in a place with other criminals or violent offenders and they're just turning out bad or putting them in dangerous situations. So I wonder if they just started with the whole rehab thing to begin with or a safe place to put, you know, just nonviolent drug offenders. It could have been a different situation. Yeah. I mean, definitely another place, you know, at that point, I was already seeking treatment.

I was trying to be in treatment. Like, I was selling drugs to go to detox. I mean, I don't, that's madness for one thing. But, like, on the front end, like, if they would have offered me treatment then, like, I wouldn't have had to miss my kids for years. You know, I missed my baby's first words, his first steps. I miss kindergarten graduation. I will never have that back and they won't either and that still hurts them like to this day. So in jail like if we look at overdose like you are 39 times more likely than the general public to die of an overdose the first two weeks from leaving jail or prison.

So that doesn't, you know, it's great that some people, you know, I want to. want people to get help being in recovery, like no matter where they are, but incarcerating people is also killing them. Could there have been another alternative for you when you had your pregnancy aside from painkillers? Like, did you need those painkillers at the time? Because you were clean for your whole pregnancy? Um, no, like my first pregnancy, I wasn't on anything.

My second, I was on M-O-U-D, which is Suboxone, like medication for opioid use disorder. So that was what the OBGYN gave me. That isn't as harsh as an opioid. And it wouldn't risk the effects of having withdrawal because the fetus can, I mean, you can miscarry. So that's what I was on. I was on pain pills. And then I gradually worked with him to lower the dose, lower the dose, where I was able to get off of those a couple a few months before I had the baby.

Now, do you think if you were on that, the first pregnancy, it would have been better for you? Because you had mentioned you took painkillers after that pregnancy, which is what got you back on the track. Oh, yeah. So after I had, okay, okay, my bad. Maybe. Maybe. I mean, anything I think would have been better for me. Like when I was pregnant, if, like, I was like an outpatient treatment, you know what I mean? And talking to a psychiatrist, if I was on M-O-U-D, like I was nothing. I was just cold turkey, not using drugs or alcohol. I wanted to be better, but I felt miserable.

Like my baby's daddy was still using drugs at the time, going out and living his life. And I was like so bitter. I was so mad at him, I thought. But really, I was jealous because I felt so horrible. And I saw him getting that relief and I wanted it. So during that pregnancy, if I did have M.O. you know and did have counseling or things that I needed to fix the reason why I wanted to get high 24 hours a day I think that would have I mean that would have helped so much I mean because I was like

a hateful pregnant woman like I was miserable you know and I didn't even know that's what it was I didn't even know what that's what it was what was what was what was what was going on with your mom at that point did you guys have a relationship yeah yeah I mean I went back to live with her. She, my mom is amazing. She is this, you know, I'm from like 30 minutes from Loretta Lynn where she was born, like butcher holler. So we are like Appalachian. And she is just amazing. She's a strong woman. She always taught me to care about people. I remember often we would have, like, people that would be sleeping on our couch or just at our house. She would be feeding, like all the little kids in the apartment complex.

So when she got home, she continued to do that. And, you know, but she dealt with some of her problems in a way that probably wasn't the most constructive, but still she was, she was a good person. Now, me, I would get to points where I could not function. You know what I mean? Like where I, my addiction was so severe that, yeah, but she. When I was in prison, she wrote me constantly. You know, she was my best friend.

She did end up having a lot of lung problems. She had emphysema and some other stuff. You know, she smoked those long menthol cigarettes, you know, like Virginia Slims, USA Gold, Salem's. So she smoked those forever. And she ended up a few years ago, you know, she was dying. She was passing away. And I got to be there and got to hold her hand while she, like, took her last breath. And she was so proud of me.

She was so, so proud of me because she kept thinking that I would die. You know, I'd overdose so many times. And I was so miserable. She just wanted me to be happy. And, you know, she got that. And my boys, by then I was able to see them and they got to see her. So I was really thankful that she got that before she went. Yeah, I feel like that's every parent's wish to see their child successful,

especially after they go through all the negative stuff. I know, like, my dad's just happy to see everything I've been able to build. I couldn't think, I wouldn't know what to think if he had passed away before, you know, I got to go on to the path of mine now, you know, because then you would only have seen the bad times. But at least he knows now that, like, I'm good and will be good. Yeah, it would break my heart when I was locked up in people's parent. I mean, I don't know if this ever happened. Like people you knew why you were locked up, their parents would die.

Why they were in prayer. Oh, that would always. It was like such a fear of mine, you know, and it was just heartbreaking. I remember sometimes, you know, they couldn't even get furloughs to go to the, the funeral. But yeah, I was always scared that, you know, she would never get to see me come out the other side. So I'm really grateful. When you finally met your dad as a teenager or knew about him, what did you learn about him? Did he have any addiction issues or? He did not. He was a Vietnam vet, former coal miner, very like straight-laced, good guy. And I hated him.

him and it wasn't anything to do with him. I was just so mad. You know, like, I was just so mad and hurt for so many years. Like, it became my personality, for real. And I was just so mad because, like, where were you? You know, like, where were you when this stuff was happening? Where were you? You know, and honestly, he didn't even know about me.

He didn't know. Yeah, I think. my mom, you know, my mom made that choice for a reason. I don't know why. I think maybe she was scared that somebody might take me. I don't know. I can't, like, speak on that. You know, she's not.

But he tried to have a relationship. He even moved me and my mom into, he bought a house and moved this in it. Like, I was full blow, too. So he just did not even know what to do. And my mom, like I said, she was strong. because she was a firecracker, honey, and she would land him. It was this poor man, this poor man. But now we have a really good relationship.

You know, he's in his 80s. So now I take him to all doctor's appointments. He stayed with me for about a year after open heart surgery. I'm his only kid. He's never been married. So, yeah, so now we get to have this really good relationship. That he did not. This poor man, like he was this bachelor.

like he had retired, he'd worked so hard, and here we came. You know what I mean? You didn't know what to do. Tell us what happened after you got arrested, whether you know, you went to trial or took a plea deal, what that all looked like. Yeah, so I got arrested, Went to County Jail detox. Like I said, I'd been on that Suboxin, that M-O-U-D, and they said, no, you can't bring it. So, dude, I was so freaking sick. I was so sick.

I'd also had an abscess because I'd had a relapse probably like three weeks before, you know, but then got back on my medication. But I had an abscess from using drugs and it had started to get infected. I didn't know what was going on with it. But there started to be red lines shooting up my arm. I started getting a really high fever. and then I started hallucinating. It was so terrible. And they kept me in this drunk tank.

Like, I thought I could hear my baby crying because, you know, he was only five months, my youngest when I left. And so I was like screaming for my baby. It was horrible. It was so horrible. And then I would know where I was and then realize like, no, you know, your kids are gone. And then it was just, oh, it was so horrible. And throwing up and all the other stuff that comes with detox. finally, thank God, they took me to a doctor to take care of that infection. Thank goodness. But I was in there

a couple of weeks and I got out on pretrial before, you know, sentencing. And what I had to do was something called monitored, controlled release. So I had to get up every day and call a phone number to see if I needed to drug test. And then I would have to go take the drug test. Well, I wasn't allowed my M-O-U-D. I wasn't allowed to take Suboxin. I had no car. There's no NA meetings, no AA meetings. And yeah, it just wasn't going to happen. You know, I couldn't quit using drugs. I mean, I just couldn't, I couldn't figure out. Yeah. So then, one of the one, One day I called, they didn't. I like passed a drug test for a little bit, you know, because you can, whatever.

And then I called one day and they said, no, you don't have to test later on, which they never did. Like in the afternoon, they called and said, oh, you need to come on over and take a drug test. We messed up on your color today. I was like, I don't know you didn't. You know what I mean? Like they got me. Like they've had results. It's like one of these tests that I've tried to pass has came back.

So I ran. I went on the run. I ended up living in this trailer with this individual. The grass had grown up to the windows. I was using a lot of drugs. I was using a lot of drugs. A lot of opioids, a lot of methamphetamine. I would hallucinate.

Like it was so horrible. My kids, I wasn't allowed to have any contact, you know, since the night I was arrested. Social Services took them, put them with their paternal grandparents. So I was just miserable. I was just so miserable. And I remember one night I just sat there and thought I can't live this way. Like I won't live this way. And that's like the day I thought I was going to do something really bad to myself.

And then, like, I'm not religious at all, but I'm spiritual, I guess. And back then, you know, I prayed or, you know, it wouldn't even, I didn't even know how to pray correctly. But, and like, I just knew, like, I couldn't do that. Like, I couldn't do that. I wanted to see my kids again someday. So the next day, I turned myself in, which is wild. The jail didn't even know what to do. They're like, what?

I'm like, yeah. So here I am. I did bring a lot of drugs in the jail with me. Hopefully I'm in trouble for that now. But I'm the only one that used them. But yeah, so I sat in county for months when I went to my court date. They said we already gave you an opportunity when we let you out pretrial. We wanted to see what you would do. So no, you're getting five years. We'll put them together, but you're getting

five years. So that's what happened. And this was a federal or a state case? State. State case. Okay. I had the monitoring thing too. I didn't even have a drug case, but they made you call every day to see if you had to go in. It was so silly. Why did you have, I mean. They were just trying to jam me up, but I didn't do drugs. I didn't even smoke weed back then. So yeah, they would call. I remember sometimes I would go in twice a week because that's how they would try to trick you. You go in and then you think you're in the clear because like when I first started out, it was just like no, no, no, then you'd have one. Then no, no, and they think you're on a routine and then bam, they hit you two days in a row. It's crazy. And dude, I had to hire people to take me for these, because my, I mean, it wasn't until you're

sober that I could finally figure out where my dag on car was. Because it had been pawn this whole time to this guy up the road. So I had to hire people to take me to these drug tests and I was giving them drugs to take me to this drug test. It was just a wild life. But yeah, I ended up going to prison,

which was not where I wanted to be. Where did they send you? Kentucky Correctional Institute for Women, so Peewee Valley. At the time there was only two women's prisons. So peewee is where they hold maximum security folks too.

So that's where the women on death row is. But they do can hold lower offenses as well. So that's where I went. We also had had a private women's prison that had just closed down. So all the women from there was at my prison as well. That one closed down because horrible, like sexual assaults, a lot of medical neglect, like the assistant warden off themselves. Yeah. So it's now reopened and houses men.

But yeah, so I was, and the day that I came, I said, can I get into a treatment program? because I had to make it because after county jail, I used drugs in there for a while and then it was like, okay, I'm going to try this, I'm going to try this, and didn't do drugs the whole time I was in prison and said, you know, I could have, but and said, can I get into a treatment program like the first day? And they put me on a waiting list. I never gotten that program the whole time I was there. I wasn't even like I was still like so far down the waiting list because they didn't have enough slots. And so many of the women there were in there for drug related offenses and not just in there for drug related offenses, but had substance use disorder. You know, like I mentioned

earlier, everybody that uses drugs doesn't have a substance use disorder. Like some people, I'm not one of those people. But yeah, but they didn't have. enough program beds. So I just did, you know, I did my time. What was the setting like because there was different classifications of women in there? Like was it dorms? Was it cells? Yeah. So, yeah. So there was the AC dorm, so where everybody goes before they're classified. That's also like where, you know, people go. Then there was a building called Lonnie Watson. So that was a medical dorm. So it's where

you're pregnant women. I'm the pregnant women in prison, man. Oh, God. All your pregnant women, people that are elderly, people that have terminal illnesses, that's where they go. And Lonnie Watson, it's medical. And then there was two other dorms, regular dorms. And then there was something called MSU, which was technically outside the gates.

There was another gate. But that's where your lowest level security. like you had to, you know, meet all these requirements to finally get out there. Eventually, I got out there and thought I was living the life. But, yeah, that's how it works to make it the multi. Ryan Reynolds here for MintMobil. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same premium wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying.

It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have one of your assistance assistants to switch you to MintMobil today. I'm told it's super easy to do at mintmobile.com slash switch. Up front payment of $45 for three-month plan, equivalent to $15 per month required. Intro rate first three months only, then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra. See full terms at mintmobile.com. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance.

Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try it at progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law, not available in all states. Top level. What were you most surprised by being in a woman's prison?

Like, what was the most shocking thing to you? Because you never really know until it happens to you. I remember one of my first shocks. It was like when I first got there. You know, I'd been to county jail and searched a million times, but they got us off the bus because it was like a shipment of us from different jails. And when they all had us strip down in this one big room and just poured, like chug, de louser, you see how long my hair is.

So they just chugged it all over my head. It was freezing. And it was like, welcome to prison. So I remember that was a huge shock. Really shocking. What was that for, like, lice or something? Yeah. And what is de louser?

That's medicine to get rid of lice. Even if you don't have lice, so you're still dumping it? Everybody had to do it. Yeah. I've heard of some prisons like hosing the people down too with like water and stuff. Did they do that? Or they just hit your hair? No, they didn't do that.

They just poured it on our heads and then there were showers or room of showers like with no curtains and we had to go in there. Wow. It was, you know, it was like really welcome to prison. I think that I was really, I mean, I was shocked that I couldn't get into substance uses. disorder treatment because I thought it was for corrections. Then I tried to do college classes and got in this horticulture class and they cut the funding. So that was shocking. Like, what are we correcting here? You know, we're just all sitting around or doing these jobs to make 80 cents a day. Like, what is happening? And it was shocking how much I love the women.

like how and their stories, you know, like how sad it was. I remember I was incarcerated with a woman who had been physically and sexually abused for years, and the person that did it had shot her in the face. And the side of her face was, you know, just torn to pieces. And she was in there on a drug cry. She had developed a substance use disorder And it was like the same thing They didn't help her

She didn't have any It was just so sad How did you spend your time in there What was like a typical day like? So when I was in horticulture That was like my favorite part We got to go out into the garden And plant flowers

And that I love that so much It was like I got to Disappear I wasn't there You know I really got to like Think that I was in a different place So it really sucked when they cut that And I also started running. I'd never been a runner, but I gained so much weight in county jail.

Like I'd gain like 40 pounds because after I detox off the opiates, like I just ate sugar all the time. So I started running. That was another thing. Like I would run on the treadmill and pretend like I was going somewhere, which is nuts. But I would. You know, anything to like trick my mind into not feeling the way that I did. Um, you know, it's something I did around my kids, too. I would disassociate because it hurt too bad. So I'd have to, like, imagine these things that I just could, like, my reality was so freaking painful.

Um, so I'd run. I'd done the horticulture. I wrote a lot. I write a lot. I wrote a lot. I wrote a lot of poetry while I was in there. And I still have that. My sons have gotten to see it now that they're older because it was so often about them. Um, you know, something that really means a lot to them. Yeah, and I'd hang out with my friends, you know, like the things that you do. You know, we'd have a dinner of noodles and summer sausages and, you know, some dessert, some fudge rounds and peanut butter and, you know, we would watch movies. I remember, so I told you, I'm like pre-nerdy. But back then, you know, Harry Potter, the Harry Potter movies were coming out.

So it was really a big deal for me. A lot of people didn't watch Harry Potter in there, you know. And I remember going out to the day room and my friend Melissa, who was amazing, like took over the TV and was just like, everybody, shut up. Panda Bear's going to watch Harry Potter. That's what they called you, Panda Bear? Yeah, yeah. That's for my nickname forever. And then some of the women would call me Loretta Lynn because my accent.

Okay. But didn't all the women have accents there because it could talk? No, no. Really? No, Kentucky's very, this accent's eastern Kentucky. Okay, that's the only people I've met then, because everyone I meet from Kentucky has your accent. And I love it. I love a good accent.

Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, that's in music, you know, like there would be, I remember, like, when we could get CDs, we would get them. But I remember, Nikki Six had this, like, side show countdown or whatever. And we'd all listen to that every week. That was a big deal. and then reading. I read a lot of books. What about your job?

Did you have one? Yeah, yeah. So when I was in horticulture, that got to count as my job. So that was cool. But like I said, I only got to do it for a while. And then I was on the clean team for a little bit. So what I did was were an orange vest and walked around the whole prison and wiped off door knobs and railings. I sanitized them.

So I did that for a minute. And then I got like. the job. I cleaned the wardens walk and the visiting center, which dude was, I mean, you know, this is a horrible story, but I'm going to tell it because it's just real, but you know how hungry you are when you're in course for like good food, for good food. And we could order out once a month, but they would take that from us sometimes. And plus, I didn't have a lot of money. So we would clean up there and visitors would come in, I remember one time they had like this photography class or something out there.

And they had gotten steaks, honey, like steaks from Albacker somewhere. And people had thrown away like half steaks, like ribby and sirloin. And you ate it. We ate them. We ate them. There was like four of us. We cut around where they and we ate it. We ate it.

I probably shouldn't have to say that on podcast. That was probably pretty good though. It was. I mean, we were, dude, prison food. Terrible. Oh, my sweet glory. What were they serving there? Yeah, I don't know if humans should eat it. So it's airmark, of course, you know.

But the only good day was we had like a loaded nacho day. But then besides that, a lot of mystery meat. in patty form, oddly shaped patties, a lot of like canned vegetables here and there. Portions were never that good. And you know you have like no time to eat. You know, like they always put you out there like right before count time. So you have to shovel it, shovel it in. For a long time, I ate that fast too.

Like I would like when I came out and started going to college and then getting decent jobs, I would have like business lunches. was just like shoveling in. Yeah, my friends ripped me for that too. But like in federal prison, I always ate fast. They give you time, but my thing was like I always wanted to find an empty seat. And I would eat fast before someone could, you know, put me in a position where they're like, that's my seat, you know? I just want to get in and get out quick.

Yep. I mean, it's, it's. You got to do what you got to do? Yeah, it's learned behaviors and it's hard to shake. Yeah. That was with me with like shower times too. I used to kill it out. You know what I mean?

But, yeah. How long did you end up serving on a five-year sentence? In there, only 13 months. And then I went to a DOC halfway house for 17 months. Oh, that's good that they let you do a halfway house for a while. So it was about 30 months altogether. Yep. And then I was on parole a few months.

So luckily, like Kentucky, I know a lot of states don't. But, you know, we do have parole. And, yeah, so I was on parole for a second. What was your plan when you got out if you had a plan? To go home. I just wanted to go home. I wanted to go home. And, yeah, like after I got out of that halfway house, they had a treatment program there.

I was like, okay, I'll participate in this, but still, I just want to go home. And that's like where I met these people like me that were in recovery. and had been formally incarcerated and had been, and it changed my life. Those people, like prison, in my opinion, did not help me in any way. It just didn't. But that, like you said, that other environment and those people, and I started, like, taking care of my trauma. And I didn't feel like my skin was on fire all the time, you know,

or that I didn't want to be the person that I was. So, yeah. And so after I got down with that program and I could go home, I didn't want to. Like, I wanted to do better. I was in a big city. They sent me to Louisville compared to where I'm from. It's like a huge city. And I thought, you know, I want to take advantage of this right now.

Like, I want to go to college. like I want to get on my feet so I can be a good mom. Like, unfortunately, with the amount of time that I was in prison, you know, that's like neglect. So I'd lost custody of my kids, but their grandparents still let me talk to them and would like let me be part of their life. So I was like, I'm going to like work on myself. So I ended up actually staying there for. a few years. I mean, it was quite a while and yeah, and at first, like, it was really hard to find a place to live, of course, because, you know, I don't think people think about it a whole lot,

but it's so easy, a population that's so easy. And actually, that's kind of like applauded and encouraged almost to support is formally incarcerated people. Like, if you have a felony on your on your record like rent they can charge you whatever because nobody else will rent to you um like i remember the place that we found thank god we finally found a place because my parole officer's like you're going to go back to prison if you don't figure something out and i knew if i went home it just wouldn't be good because i didn't have like the recovery support i wasn't even allowed in a gas station in my county you know that's the only place you could work there was no job. So like, I couldn't even get gas anywhere. Like how, you know, like, how was I going to?

I was banned. Um, so that apartment, yeah, I live in this little closet, started trying to get jobs. I had three jobs at once. I was a, um, house cleaner. Um, I worked at a drug and alcohol counseling center as like a receptionist. And then I catered. Um, yeah, that's how I got money for my my first month's rent was I worked at the Kentucky Derby. Never been as like, you know, like a spectator, but I worked there. And I worked like a millionaire's role. So like they just throw money out, which was awesome. And I made enough to, you know, pay my deposit and first month's rent. And so I had that all paid. I had the paper to show my pro officer. I was going to move into this house. And I almost got revoked. I almost got revoked and sent back to prison to finish the rest of my sentence

because I worked at the Kentucky Derby. So they were counting that as a violation? Because the alcohol. That's so silly. And I want, thank God. Like, she, you know, I had a good parole officer. I'm so thankful because anybody else like that would have been up, you know. But thank God, she just yelled. It really makes a difference. Yeah, she just yelled at me. She just yelled at me. She just yelled at me. It's like, Make money some other way. But good. I'm glad you got an apartment. I mean, a house.

So, yeah. So I did that. The three jobs. The closet apartment. And then saved up enough money to buy a car. It was a piece of work. You know, but ran. And decided I wanted to go back to college.

Started going to college for social work. I would go at nights and then on the weekend and then work. all between there. I paid off I owed child support from when I was incarcerated. They charged me while I was in there

even though I couldn't. I only made a dollar a day. So I paid that off, thank goodness, paid off all those fines and fees that they can send you back for because I was scared to death. And yeah,

I did that for a while and then that halfway house that I used to be at had a job opening, that place that I used to hate, but with the recovery program. But I took that job because I wanted to be like the person. You know, like I said, that's what changed my view was people that are formally incarcerated, people in recovery. And I wanted to be that for somebody else.

So I started working there and ran it. At one point, I ran the whole thing. So I was working with my ex-examination. parole officer, which was interesting, like it was a real weird power dynamic. Yeah, and I love that. It was so fulfilling. I saw so many great things, and then I saw so many sad, sad things. Why social work?

What made you get into that for college? Yeah, I think it was, like I said, those people that I met that were like me and that helped me deal with my problems. And I definitely think that's why. And I felt like, you know, I needed to pay that forward. Do the same thing. How long did it take to reintegrate yourself with your kids and get that back? Yeah.

So after the halfway house, well, near the end of it, I got to have a pass to go back to visit. So I got to see them after a couple years. And that was huge. Like my oldest son remembered me, my youngest didn't. and was scared of me. He called somebody else, Mom. It was heartbreaking. It hurt so bad.

And then I just kept slowly building. When I got a car and finally got off parole, I went home on the weekends. It was like a three-hour drive. I would go there, though, and their grandparents would let me come and visit. And then eventually their grandparents let them stay all night with me at my sister's house back home.

And then eventually they let them come spend spring break with me in Louisville. And then a couple years ago, my oldest son moved in with me. Yeah. Yeah. And then my youngest spends huge amounts of time with me. But, you know, it's a little harder for him because he was so little, you know, five months, five months old. But I'm hoping one day I just keep working at it.

How did you transition into what you do now? Yeah, so I was working at that place, the halfway house, and I dealt with parents all the time because people would overdose. You know, that's, that's a thing. And I was definitely really into the recovery community. So a father had called me and said his daughter was 19. She had died in a jail in Indiana, detoxing. They hadn't checked on her for over 12 hours. and he would just call and talk to me.

And one day he had called and said, you know, I really wish somebody could do something. So me too, you know, but it isn't me. You know, me too, like me too. And the next day, there's this job description, like job posting that my boss sent me. She's like, I don't want you to leave, but check this out. And it was for the ACLU of Kentucky.

And it was around criminal. justice reform and advocacy. And it said on there, if you are formally incarcerated, you are strongly encouraged to apply. I was like, what? You just heard how much, you know, I was working three jobs. I was all over the place because I couldn't find a steady job before the halfway house. So I'd never seen a job posting that actually said, hey, you know, like, come try to get this job. So I started working there.

I started working at the ACLU, working on criminal justice bills. I had no clue what I was doing. About a weekend, they said I was a lobbyist. I had no clue what a lobbyist was. I couldn't even vote. You know what I'm saying? I'm like, okay. And when I went, I would go to our state capital and I'd look around and there's

like no formally incarcerated people. There's no people in recovery. but there's sheriffs, there's cops, there's judges, there's prosecutors, there's the industries that make money at the prisons. All of them were there in those committee rooms and everywhere else. And all the legislators was talking about us, but we weren't there. I was like, this is not, right? You know, this doesn't make any sense. Like what they're saying is, you know, not even, it wasn't even cruel sometimes.

It was just misinformed. like because we weren't there. So I started a group called with my friend, Senator Cotora Heron in Kentucky. Back then she wasn't a senator. But we started a group called Kentucky Smart Justice Advocates, which were formally incarcerated Kentuckians that came to Frankfurt, which is our capital,

to work on criminal justice and recovery bills. So we started doing that and started working with anybody that would work with us. you know, we couldn't wait and only work with you if you were a Democrat or only if you were a Republican. The people that we were fighting for in love the most were dying or were behind bars. Like we couldn't wait. Like that doesn't matter to us. Like we want to work on good policy.

We work on it with us. Cool. You know, and that's and that was really successful. Like we were able to pass over a dozen bills, you know. And we would work with businesses. We would work with faith leaders, law enforcement. And, yeah, and it was just amazing. And the people in that group, like when we fought so hard in these big coalitions,

and we would get a win, and they would know, like, this is going to affect thousands of Kentuckyans. Like this story that you told about the worst thing ever, this is what it's going to do. and like what that would mean, it's amazing. It's amazing, you know. So I did that. And then now I get to do that on an even cooler level. I get to work at dream.org on our public healthist public safety campaign, which really centers directly impacted people.

And the campaign is all about changing. from a culture of criminalization to care. And what that looks like is more resources, just like you hit on earlier alternatives to incarceration. Is there a way that we can deal with this for a recovery program or getting somebody in to mental health support as opposed to just incarcerating them? Like, is there a way that we can really,

and that makes us safer? You know, like those outcomes are really, better. Our communities thrive. And so that's what it's all about. And we do that. Just like I said earlier, like willing to work, it doesn't matter your political party, doesn't matter your religious background, race, gender, like we all want to work together with you on this. Because, I mean, overdose, the criminal legal system affects every single person. Absolutely. Now, you were saying that earlier that You didn't think prison had done anything for you in that moment. But do you realize after what you've been able to achieve that it kind of in a way indirectly helped you because it gave you the experience you needed to do your job now, essentially?

Yeah, I think that's that silver lighting. You know what I mean? Like I wouldn't go back and change my past, you know? Sometimes I think I would because of my kid, you know what I mean? But, you know, I'm always scared like one of those science fiction movies if you do it to make it worse. So, yeah, prison made me understand, like, the resilience that I had. It made me, it lit a fire in me to, you know, to get to understand the system better, to, you know, that's really where kind of that spark and started at. So, yeah, I definitely think that silver lining, because anybody can work on criminal.

criminal justice reform, but like you and I both know, it's different when you've lived it. You know, we're going to bring perspectives to the table that you can't have looking from the outside end. So, yeah, so I am grateful for that perspective, and I wouldn't have had it without that past. So, yeah, like I said, those folks telling their story and passing those bills, it's using this thing for good. So I'm really great for. How can people that want to help you guys and what you guys have going on? Yeah. So people can text the word care to 97483 to join the campaign.

We work on federal bills. You know, we're working on a bill right now that Vice President J.D. Vance actually sponsored last year. A bunch of Democrats, a bunch of Republicans sponsored it. But it's called the Reentry Act. And what it does is allows Medicaid 30 days before someone leaves jail or prison. This would be huge. Like I said earlier, people are more likely to dive an overdose.

And this helps people before they leave, make sure that they're connected to health care on the outside. Substance use disorder programming helps with case management. So we're working on a lot of different federal bills. We're working on a clean slate bill that expungement. It makes expungement automated so people can get that horrible, like scarlet letter off their background. And then we work in states all across the nation. We work on bills, you know, around Good Samaritan. So when someone overdoses, you can call for help without getting arrested.

In some states, if you're on probation and parole, and you call for help for children. someone, you can be revoked. There's nothing like, so people are dying. We work on a bunch, a bunch of different things, a bunch of decriminalization and putting drug issues more in the public health space as opposed to the criminal justice space. So we definitely, definitely need people to come and work with us and help us get some of this stuff done. And, yeah, like, go pass a bill that's going to help thousands of people, you know, like you'll feel. And if I can do it, anybody can do it, you know. Yeah, I was just talking to someone yesterday that is in New Jersey and they have the clean slate bill that they just passed or they have now.

And it's really helped him get his felonies off his record, which is huge. It's absolutely huge. It's absolutely huge. I got a pardon a few years ago. and it was like one of the best feelings of my whole entire life. You know, like my son was like so excited, like over the moon. Yeah, and Clean Slate, getting apart from the governor was hard. Like I had tried for years, two different governors.

So Clean Slate and just having that expungement process automated. Oh my God, that's amazing. Like it gives people hope. Do you think they'll ever do that on the federal level? We're working on a federal bill to do that. For clean slate? Mm-hmm. Yes.

What are like the specifics for that, like the criteria? Yeah. So we have to start somewhere. So when it comes to certain offenses, those will be automated. But then other offenses that are nonviolent, there can be a petition expungement process. Like you would be able to at least take that step to get that done like you do in a lot of States. And then eventually, obviously, we would like it all to be automated. You can't work on that with us, Ian. Maybe mine would fall in, because mine are all non-violent

fraud charges. Yeah, we have to check that out, for real. Yeah, but the law's not passed yet, right? Nope, no. There'll be a new bill introduced because the new Congress, but yeah, it was a bipartisan bill. I mean, my senator from Kentucky, Senator Rand Paul was actually, the sponsor in the Senate and a bunch of other R's and Democrats. So, yeah, and I even think, you know, truthfully under the Trump administration, you know, they passed the First Step Act, which has let so many people out of jail or prison, and that was a bipartisan effort. So I really hope.

I know there's a lot of political divide right now. Like, I know that. and there's a lot of hurt and, you know, I understand all of that. But I hope that criminal justice reform may be somewhere that we can come together in this country and get some more stuff done. That's what I'm hopeful. I always have to be hopeful. I work with politicians, you know what I mean?

And in policy. So, but I really am hopeful, though, that we may be able to get some cool stuff done. Definitely. What advice would you give to your younger self, your teenage? each self if you could stand right next to her today. Be nice to yourself. Be nicer to yourself. You're okay.

You're just be nice. You know, I beat myself up a whole lot. Yeah, for sure. Well, Amanda, thank you so much for coming here today and sharing your incredible story. And, you know, I wish you the best of luck with everything you got going on. Thank you, Ann. It was great. Appreciate it.

did great too. Okay, awesome.