Locked In with Ian Bick - Ex Paisa Prison Gang Shot Caller Reveals How He Was Taken Down for a BRUTAL Murder | Victor Gonzalez

Episode Date: November 21, 2024

Victor Gonzalez, a former shot caller for the Paisa prison gang, shares his story of power, crime, and consequences. In this interview, Victor discusses his rise within the gang, the events leading to his involvement in a brutal murder, and how law enforcement eventually took him down. He provides a firsthand account of the realities of prison gangs and the decisions that changed his life forever. #PrisonGangs #TrueCrimeStories #GangLifeExposed #PaisaGang #PrisonConfessions #LifeBehindBars #CrimeAndPunishment #GangLeaderStory Hosted, Executive Produced & Edited By Ian Bick: https://www.instagram.com/ian_bick/?hl=en https://ianbick.com/ Connect with Victor Gonzalez: FB: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100007241043707&mibextid=LQQJ4d YT: https://youtube.com/@victor20piece?si=OU8p7Uz8-dkeVPs3 Presented by Tyson 2.0 & Wooooo Energy: https://tyson20.com/ https://woooooenergy.com/ Buy Merch: https://www.ianbick.com/shop Use code lockedin at checkout to get 20% off your order Timestamps: 00:00:00 Arrival in New York and a Kind Uber Driver 00:07:11 Coping with Family Struggles 00:14:19 Growing Up in a Turbulent Environment 00:21:46 Early Signs of a Troubled Path 00:29:20 Life in Juvenile Prison and Meeting Kip Kinkel 00:36:21 Life in a Chaotic Environment 00:43:46 Navigating Prison Gangs and Culture 00:50:33 Unexpected Reunion with a Childhood Friend 00:58:09 Reflections on Anger and Loss 01:06:04 Facing 47 Years in Prison 01:13:37 Memories of Childhood and Consequences 01:21:00 Surviving a Prison Fight 01:27:08 Intense Fight and Injuries 01:34:12 Struggles with Reconnecting After Incarceration 01:41:32 A Child's Heartfelt Sacrifice 01:48:30 Journey of Overcoming Fear and Embracing Life 01:54:33 Strategies for Growth and Engagement Powered by: Just Media House : https://www.justmediahouse.com/ Creative direction, design, assets, support by FWRD: https://www.fwrd.co Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Victor, welcome to Lockton. You had a long journey to get here, man, and you got to see New York for the first time. Fucking amazing. Fucking tie. Crazy, bro. For sure. Yeah, tell the story about the Uber driver that you're just telling me, because there are, you know, good people out there that do kind acts, which is really nice.

Bro, it was like a blessing because I was kind of like, man, I told everybody that I was going to go to New York and I was broke. So I was like, all right. So how do we make it happen? And fortunately, I was like, all right, man, we're going to get a hotel. Went to Hartford, got a hotel there, came over there, got dropped off there, called the Uber to bring me over here for a hotel. And Uber driver heard my story, he was like, hey, bro, man, no fucking worries, man, I got you. Let's, matter of fact, to drop your stuff off and we'll just get to New York right now.

So we're out there like for six hours kicking it, having a blast. It was fun, man. My brother helped me out a lot, too. So we ended up getting the hotel there and smashed out there to Times Square. did all kinds of fun shit, but what happens in New York, stays in New York, you know what I'm saying?

That was your brother who came with you? Yeah, yeah. And he didn't want to stay to watch your episode. No, I told him to make me more comfortable like this,

just solo, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, and he'll see it when it comes out. Yeah, for sure, man. Yeah, for sure. What state did you fly in from? Salem, Oregon.

Oregon, okay. Yeah, where J.D. DeLay was from, same prisons, OSB and stuff. Oh, you were in OSP, wow. Oh, yeah, I was all over there. I got moved, got transferred every few years, you know. Now, did you grow up in Oregon?

So I came from Mount Vernon, Washington. I was born in Mount Vernon, Washington, and then we moved to Bellingham, Washington. Bellingham, Washington. I was raised in, like, the outdoors, you know? So it was kind of just a field, pretty much, cows and shit like that, you know. Who'd you grow up with? With my brothers, man.

The brother's mom and dad, my dad was, you know, I'll just start it off, I guess. Fuck it. Yeah, my dad was an alcoholic, you know what I'm saying? Mom was, she manipulative, you know what I mean? She was a good person, man. She had a good heart. She comes from a hard line of crazy folks, too.

You know what I'm saying? Yeah, they both crossed the border, came out here, had us. And, yeah, they had us. I was the youngest to five kids. Yeah, I grew up in a rough home, though, man. My dad was a drunk, you know. You know, I was beat my mom up, beat my brothers up, you know. Suffer a lot of that.

Yeah, it was a lot of shit that happened, man, when I was a kid, you know? What did your parents do for work? So my dad, I don't remember him working very much. My mom, she took care of senior citizens, so of seniors, you know. Yeah, there was, so when I was growing up, shit fuck man I just had a good time

I hate talking about my childhood but you know what I'm saying fucking we're here yeah it was a lot of abuse man to see my dad beat the shit out of my brothers all the time you know I grew up when my mom she was

she was a sweetheart but sometimes she could be a little crazy too you know smash her out when we were kids and all that stuff but uh so we had a brother I was eight, he was 10 when he passed away, but he was paralyzed, so we had to feed him through tubes

and shit, you know? Yeah, my first childhood memories were of him on a bed, he couldn't move or talk or nothing like that, so yeah, grew up with that. It was one of the hardest times of my life, man, because I grew up with stories of him, like, you know what I mean, of them telling me the stories of how it happened.

So I guess he was two years old playing around in the kitchen and shit and a pot of water. He was a kid torn in the kitchen, and it fell on his head. And he got burnt, you know what I'm saying? And I grew up with stories of how it happened and always hearing how it. happened but he was my best friend you know and so from the age of two he was paralyzed and uh couldn't talk move or nothing his brain was gone you know um but he was my best friend because i grew up and what i was uh i was the youngest the five so i was i was the way youngest so i was you know there was a lot of years between me and my older brothers um yeah so i was always alone you know my mom

Dad would beat her up and shit like that, and I'd have kind of just stayed on myself. Like when shit happened, I never really had nobody to talk to, you know? So I would just go through that shit and have it on my own. But, yeah, that created a lot of shit inside of me, I think. That was the birth of, like, the birth of the anger and the hatred I felt when I got older, you know? Did you blame your parents for his death?

No, well, we grew up in a Christian family, man. So Christian family, it was always about, you know, going church like five times a week. And, you know, I was raised to believe in God, you know. And when it happened, I believe I felt, I don't know, I felt like empty, I felt lost, I felt like God wasn't there, you know. Yeah, when my dad would beat my mom, there was just one moment that created the first part, I think, in my childhood that fucked me up.

And that was the moment where I hear my mom screaming in the back in her room. She was screaming, and then her voice cut out. She was being choked, and I knew my dad was choking her. But the room was locked. We tried to get in. And then my brother kicked in the door. I was about six. My brothers were about 12 or so.

He kicked in the door And my dad stunned Sitting on top of her He was naked And he was smearing his excrement On top of her on her face With one hand and choking her Like with another hand

You know And I'll never forget the way I felt When I was sitting there I was stunned It was like a shock came over me It was It was my initiation For sure

To another world You know I was stuck and I felt helpless and I couldn't move like my body gave in I couldn't stop shaking I was just stuck I couldn't talk and nothing and then my brothers went in to the kitchen grab the knife and try to stab my dad or whatnot and you know after that you know you got cops came over try to question us but we always lied it was a code, code within the family, you know, we don't talk to cops, you know.

Shit like that. And, yeah, after that, yeah, I remember feeling that, that definitely left the mark, you know, because I remember feeling help us. I've been able to talk to my mom. I'd be able to help her, you know what I'm saying? And I took that with me. And so when that has... happened, I remember feeling like alone and not being able to talk to communicate with nobody about it.

And I remember like my anger was the only thing I had left, you know what I mean? And that was the first time that I think, I believe I was introduced to hatred itself. And hatred wasn't just hatred. It became like a mother figure to me. It became something like a nurturer, you know, someone to console me. And, you know, as long as I had her, I've been. felt as if I didn't have to fear nothing or nobody, you know. We could conquer the fucking world for all, like for all she cared. You know what I'm saying? We could do whatever.

And there was no more being scared. You know what I'm saying? And I would confront the rest of my life like that, I think, because of that moment, you know? It changed me for sure. What ended up happening to your dad after that? Nothing. Should they let him go? Did you look at law enforcement?

differently after that moment? I always looked at law and enforcement that way, especially as pertains to my family, you know. We were the only Hispanic kids in school, so it was like, you know, we were always seemed differently. Like, my mom and dad were always broke, and they just crossed the border,

so they didn't know about styles and stuff like that, so we were always dressed kind of funny, you know what I'm saying? So, yeah, yeah, for sure. After that, years later of all that shit, man. Yeah, my mom went through some stuff at that point, too, because of my brother, you know. She was a little lough. She would always threaten to commit suicide, shit like that.

There was another moment where we asked her, you know, to go to the park or some shit like that. I don't remember. But, yeah, I'll never forget the moment where she was smashing off in a van. she was driving super fast. She's like, you want to go to the fucking park? All right. I'll take you to the fucking park. And she started speeding up the gas.

And we almost hit this brick wall. She was driving into a brick wall, you know? And something about that time, too, that really clicked on my head that, gosh, damn, I really thought she was going to kill us. You know what I'm saying? Well, holy shit. You know, your mother. You know what I'm saying?

Yeah, I grew up with a lot of that stuff, you know? Do you feel like the system failed you as a kid? I've always felt that way. I knew that there was something different between me and the other kids when I was growing up in school, you know, and I knew that when I was a kid, I was always in trouble.

I always felt like a bad kid. I didn't know why, though. You know what I'm saying? But when I think about it now, I didn't have a mother and father to tell me what to do. I didn't have a safe place. I didn't, I wasn't aware of like, I didn't know what a safe home was, what it was like to come home and have structure, you know what I mean?

It was always how to worry about food on the table or finding a new apartment to live in or there was a moment where we lived in hotels with prostitutes next door, you know? Yeah, when my brother ended up passing away when he was 10, I was 8. and when he died see because he was the one that I would always sit at his at his side and talk to him you know and talk to him about the shit happening

you know everything going on in my life and when he died I didn't understand what like what it meant you know what I'm saying I didn't really grasp the concept of death yet a finality of it you know

I remember he would always go to the doctor that time he went to the doctor too so when they came back they said he passed away and I was eight and I didn't know what passed away meant and my brother told me he died you fucking idiot

you know what I'm saying he's dead he's not coming back so that was the way that I found out he died like died you know what I'm saying I wondered about my about like how

somebody could be gone, be there, and just not be there no more. You know what I'm saying? Just gone, completely gone. And I was like, what do you mean he died? This meant a lot to me at the time because I was like, that's my world. You know what I mean? That was the one that counseled me in a way because just by sitting with them and hanging out. And after that, I remember feeling some sort of way, too, you know.

But yeah. Do you end up completing public high school? No, I, so we moved from Washington, from a different part of Washington to Granger, Washington. And there was a lot of gangs and stuff like that in those schools. So we never stayed in one spot. You know, my brothers got in trouble over there, started dressing with the Dickies and the Cortez and all that stuff.

So we ended up moving from there because of some stuff that happened. There was a few friends that got shot, a few friends that got killed or whatnot. Then some other stuff happened, law enforcement. And, yeah, my brothers ended up having to leave. And then it was me and my mom. And, like, there's some things that I can talk about, some things I can't. But, yeah, we ended up leaving there. And then coming to Oregon, starting a new life in Oregon.

Just you and your mom or your whole family? Me and my mom at first, my brothers and my dad were away, waiting for a little bit for things to die down. And then they came back. So for a while, it was just me and her, you know. And were you attending school regularly? I finished fifth grade, went to sixth grade for a little bit, for like a couple weeks, but by that time I was already like,

so my mom had to work to support the family. So she worked. She took care of seniors. So she was, she pretty much lived at work, you know, 24-7. And then my dad wasn't drunk. And then it was me and my brothers at the house. So it was, ended up turning into a little crack house kind of, you know what I'm saying? Like, I'd go home, drink beers, get drunk, whatever. I was, I was only 10, you know what I'm saying? started smoking weed and all that stuff and, you know, trying some coke out for the first time doing some coke and seeing what that was about. And then I started seeing these kids out there selling drugs and stuff.

So I tried to sell some drugs. I grabbed some weed from my brother's little sack, took it to school and tried to sell weed, and then I got expelled for it, you know? I was actually sleeping on the streets at that time. I was sleeping on the streets of friends' house, couch surfing, you know. Ended up going to school, selling that, and I got to... Looking to start 2026 with an unforgettable getaway.

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the first drink of alcohol I had. Well, the first time I actually got drunk, you know, I was I was about 10, 10, 11 years old, and I drank until I actually got drunk and I remember feeling it like it was a miracle. You know what I'm saying? Like, wow, for the first time, all the pain, the anxiety, everything I felt was gone. You know what I'm saying? All the anger just ran through me fluidly, you know, and I was like, oh, wow, like, this is freedom, you know what I'm saying?

from the depression or from the anger, you know, I was like, damn, this is like, this is where I want to be, you know what I'm saying? I don't got to feel shit no more, you know? But, yeah, I ended up, let me see, introduced to the system when I was 12, I was still in beer from a store. I got expelled.

Then I was hanging out on the streets and shit. In 12, though, I was out there still in beer from stores and stuff like that. And it would be easier to get drunk and pass out on the streets because it was cold outside, you know? So I would always like to get drunk still a 40-year-oldee or something,

like some mad dogs at 2020s, you know what I'm saying? And that would help me sleep. So, yeah, one day we're out there stealing some beers and then some dude ends up talking shit. We ended up, I kicked his car. I kicked his car. And then we ended up leaving stealing some more beer

And then outside of the store There was cops They told me to put my hands up On the wall and shit And I had a 12-pack inside of my jacket Inside those big old jackets And David's jackets You know

Yeah, so I got cut up for that too And then they ended up taking me To juvenile detention hall JDH I don't know I spent a few hours there or whatever, you know, but it wasn't nothing to me. I was, I was already just doing the stuff that I was raised to do kind of, you know.

But, yeah, at that point, you know. Were you hanging out with any, you know, street gangs or anything like that? It was no gangs, man. We were a group of kids, you know, just a lot of friends. But I had this friend of mine, Roach, Justin Roach, and that was my dude, man. We had, like we did everything together, you know what I mean? It was like my brother. And my older brothers had friends, too.

And they were the ones that we looked up to. We ended up looking up to, and they were all crazy too. Outside of the house, there'd be fights, there'd be shootings and shit like that. Like, shit, their house got shot up a few times. I remember. It was extremely violent, man. Extremely violent, you know. You could be drinking with a bunch of friends.

friends and then like a minute later somebody's fighting outside you know what I'm saying like kids you know what I'm saying 14 15 year old kids um yeah all that I think uh that led me to the life that I uh ended up taking you know what I'm yeah I remember like my I was I started getting in trouble with the laws so I was always going to court and shit like that And so they mandated me to go to treatment programs. And when I was in treatment, I was, what, 13 years old, I want to say, like 13 years old, and I had heard my brother shot somebody. And I thought he was going to get life, you know.

I wasn't exactly sure what had happened, but I thought he was going to get life. And he ended up, I think he ended up getting 18 months. he was at a hotel or something like that and it was over a spot spot to park it was a it was a biker guy and uh got in the words with the dude

or whatever and dude punched my brother my brother ends up shooting the dude tried to shoot him in the face but the damn thing jumped up jammed up um yeah when I had heard that

happened I was in in patient treatment. And I remember being 13 years old and be like, fuck if they take another brother of mine, I'm gonna go crazy, you know. So I was fighting,

fighting through that. All that shit truly took a toll on your psychology, man. You know what I'm saying? You fucked you up, you know? So maybe like a few months. Once after that, one of our close friends, one of my brother's friends, he was 15 or 16, he ended up killing two people.

He got jumped. He got jumped back in the day and ended up going back, going back, shot two of the guys and killed him. he ended up getting 75 years that was one thing that changed me too because I was always thinking like okay so this is my environment this was you know and and it was always like something over my head thinking like okay I gotta be tougher I gotta be tougher I gotta be tougher I gotta be tougher I gotta

tougher didn't mean like being tough strong It meant being psychologically equipped, like, to handle your environment. You know what I'm saying? And that meant, like, becoming cold, you know. With all those people around you that were ending up in prison or dead, did you think that that's where your life was heading at that time? It's funny, man, because I was just talking to my best friend Roach, and I was thinking, like, bro, remember when I was 12 or 13,

and we were still in beer coming out drinking, and I still remember this for some reason. And I'm going to see prison one day. I was like, man, I hope I don't get a life sentence. You know, and he did too. And we were joking about it the other day, and we were talking about it. Like, holy shit, man, we called it for sure. You know what I'm saying?

Yeah, we called it for sure, man. So, yeah, I kind of knew that I was going to go to prison. You know what I'm saying? I knew it. It was just a matter of time. But I was kind of, like without knowing it, I was all. already in my head, like preparing for my life in prison, you know. When I was 14, we ended up still in beer,

and it was one of those days when my dad beat my mom. And I was really pissed off because at that age, I was already getting angry and violent, you know, packing knives and guns and stuff like that. But when he beat her, he had left, and I had gotten thereafter, and I was upset. and I was like a ball of emotions, man. You know what I'm saying?

Like a time bomb, you know? So we go, me and Justin, go and do this beer hunt or whatever. And go into the store, take beer, leave, hop in there again, take some more beer and leave. Man, but I was so angry at the time. It was just building up. And then I ended up going there for a third time. And there was a little Asian guy, man, and gosh, I feel so bad now.

But back then, we smashed in the store instead of taking off and trying to escape, I walk in and I grab two 12 packs. And I walk out. Well, I was about to walk out. The Asian guy comes from behind the cashier, and he's like, no, man, I can't let you take this. and I just dropped the beer and I take out a knife. And I don't know what took over me, man. I swung at his face.

And he dropped. He went to the floor. And I remember seeing the fear in his eyes, man. You know what I'm saying? It was something about me that hated seeing that fear in his eyes because it was offensive to me for some reason. I think I had this beast. with fear, you know, like weak, because I remember myself being weak, and I hated that about,

about myself, you know. I always wanted to confront fear at all cost, no matter what, you know. And I'll never forget that, and I seen him on the floor, and he was, he was scared, man, innocent dude, you know. and I proceeded to just, I walked a luggy at him and took off and walked out out. You know, two weeks later I was out there still in cars, breaking into cars, stealing some stereos or whatnot. And we were drunk that night, and somebody had shot at us from the second floor of a, a building and so we took off running and we ended up I had cops were trying to find us or whatever

and they found us and um it was on a chase or whatever shit they hit me up I rolled through some bushes man I was scraped up all over man just scrapes on my face and stuff um yeah we ended up going to J.D.H. And right when I was about to get let out, some detectives walked through the door and they're like, hey, you're Victor Gonzalez, you're going to be charged with armed robbery one. Like where you were at this market at this time, blah, blah, blah, blah. And yeah, they ended up charging me. Arm robbery one went out 14. In Oregon, you got to be 15 to catch the injury 11. So, yeah, 15, so I was 14, so I dodged the bullet.

Well, not really, shit, you know what I'm saying? So they said they were going to sentence me until I was 25. I didn't understand what he was talking about. The judge was talking about or the attorney lingo, you know what I'm saying? So I was thinking I was actually going to be there until I was 25. So I started tripping out. I was like, holy shit, man. I was like, what the fuck am I going to do?

And so we went to court, had an attorney and all that stuff. Ended up going to court when they sentenced me, and he told me that. And I was like, holy shit. So when I was walking back, man, I remember I was thinking like, what the fuck? I was like, holy shit, man. I'm going to fucking prison, right? And coming back from the court, after they sentenced me, I don't know what happened, man. I fucking imploded.

You know what I'm saying? I fucking imploded. I was shackled up and handcuffs on me, coming back from court, and the cops were laughing with each other about something. It wasn't about me. I think it was just the fact that they were being chirpy

in the face of my demise, you know what I'm saying? And I was walking with them back and I ended up just biting the dude's stomach. I don't know why I did it. You know what I'm saying? I was like, what the fuck was I thinking? I bit his stomach and I latched on, you know. All I could use was my mouth.

You know what I'm saying? I was like, the motherfuckerger was skipping, bro. He was like, son of a bitch, bro. This dude, he's fucking kids crazy. So they end up smashing me out. Like, man, he called, he pressed the rest red button. So the red button means that when you fights going on or something, the kids of J.88 have to go on the floor

and then they cover themselves up, cover their eyes, spread their legs, and then they go on the floor and like a little red light starts popping off like a siren. That means that all the attention, all the cops can get their attention on the fight or something.

They came out of me, man. They started smashing me out, hog-tied me, and I was like, why the fuck did I do that for you? You know what I said? It took me into a, a solitary cell. And when I was in the solitary cell,

the J.D.H. was worse than the ones in prison. You know, it was like a little five by five. There's urine and blood and semen on the walls and shit, you know, scrapes from all the kids going crazy in there. They put me in there, and that was where they sent me to the juvenile

prison from. So I ended up doing that going to juvenile prison. And, yeah, I'll never forget hopping in that van shackled up And you're going to prison I was like, what the fuck, I'm 14 years old, you know? So I know I had to be tough, you know what I'm saying? Had to fight, fight for sure.

Yeah, I got there, you know, I remember seeing the cages and shit like that, you know? It's like, oh, damn, man. Everybody dressed in like the same shit, you know? Same gear. And sure enough, man, I walk in there and like, fuck, there was fights, you know what I'm saying? And in McLaren, they don't send you to prison until you're 25 in some of those cases. So these kids were like 22, 23 years old, just stacked up. Some of them were doing life.

I was in prison. I was in the same spot as Cape Canco, the school shooter in Springfield, Oregon. And I don't know, I think he killed like four people, like two people. He ended up being my best friend. Well, not my best friend, but a friend. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, we ended up like befriending each other in prison. But he wasn't the guy that everybody said he was.

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He was probably serving life, right? Yeah, he got 112 years, I think it was. Yeah, yeah. But he was in the juvenile system. So, you know, you went from McLaren. His story was huge, man. So you had like, you know, all kinds of people coming to see him or whatnot. And he was in the back.

I was in the front so the back is for like the DOC offenders like for killers and stuff like that you know and the front was for juveniles juveniles were people going home you know what I'm saying but the DOC was in the back

and if they screwed up and then they sent him out out to real prison I think he ended up staying there until he was 25 or something but yeah so there was there was a lot of that going on

I ended up doing 22 months I think it was 22 months I got out when I was like 16 I want to say I got out man and it was like what the fuck

I was like you know they wanted me to go back to school I was one of the terms you know I was like all right man

we're gonna shoot you the pink slip right and the pink slip is like like you go home you know but they don't tell you when you're going to home so I was like holy shit it came out of nowhere.

I'm like oh damn and I got a pink slip so I'm going back home you know. And there was a lot of counseling so it kind of helped me through some shit you know. Nick you're the first person that ever said there was actual counseling in one of these facilities. Yeah there was but it wasn't like it was like somebody to talk to like a usually it wasn't them it was it was like a staff you know what I'm saying? a staff would come and like, you know, hear about your past and be like, fuck, man, this kid's got it bad, you know what I'm saying? And, you know, like, you get to hang out with them or whatnot.

And that was the first time I think I actually opened up about some stuff. And so I started to find, like, this little calm coming to terms with my past. You know what I'm saying? But then they let me out, and then they mandated the school. it told me that I had to attend South High School and I was like okay cool yeah whatever man I'll do it and so they ended up born in the school before I actually came out

and they're like all right well you got Victor you know what I'm saying like be careful type of thing you know what I'm saying and yeah ended up going there man and I didn't last too long there like a couple months I don't even know all the homework they were doing and all that shit. I had no education at all, you know.

So I was like, they put me in there, it might as well have fucking been speaking Chinese, man, because I didn't understand shit they were saying, you know what I'm saying? All my classes and shit, like, the fuck am I supposed to do, man? I'm supposed to just do this work, how, you know what I'm saying? There's no way.

Yeah, because I had been in like juvenile prison, they weren't teaching you nothing, you know? I ended up going to an alternative school, alternative school was like a little prison too, when I was like 12, you know what I'm saying, when they expelled me. So alternative school was like the little place was like, fuck, man, they fucking search you and shit.

You know, you get in, walk in lines, search you, give you you you ways and stuff like that, you know. So it's almost like they're prepping you for, for incarceration, you know what I'm saying? So that's how it was. When you got out of that prison, the juvenile prison, did you ever think you were going to go back, or did you think you were done?

What was your mindset? At that point, I had been speaking to my mom, man, and she had been telling me, you know, she was sorry about the way that things had occurred and stuff. So we started coming to terms. So I was actually thinking, like, all right, man, if I can go to school, you know, I needed help. But the work they gave me made me feel incompetent,

you know what I'm saying? I went over there and I was like, yeah, dude. And I don't want to say anything. I guess it was pride, I guess, you know what I'm saying? So it was really, I wanted to change, I think. You know what I'm saying? But I had a lot of issues too, man. I had a lot of psychological issues, you know.

Like my brother, Don, was a big thing for me, you know. Yeah, so I wanted to, but when I stayed at my mom's, I actually stayed with her in her new home. She took care of seniors or whatnot, so I was at that house, but it got boring, you know what I'm saying? So I ended up going back with my dad and my brothers, and it was a house that you can pretty much do whatever you want. You know, there's guns in the house, you know, everybody's doing lines and shit, you know what I'm saying? It was like a little drug house, you know? So I ended up going there, and then my mom didn't like that I had guns in the house.

and I always like having guns, you know? I loved guns. I never felt like safe without one, you know? So it was just easier, I think, to cope with that shit at my dad's house because, you know, it was, you could pretty much do whatever you want, you know what I mean? So there was no rules. Yeah, so at that age, man, I don't know. That was it.

Shit, let me see. Yeah, my brothers started pushing away, you know. Started selling small amounts of weed here and there. So I ended up having a baby, like my daughter. And she was in my world, man, you know. She was everything, man. I never forget. Like when she was born, I held this little creature in my hands.

I was like, oh my gosh, what is this? You know, she's so beautiful. And I knew at that moment that it wasn't about me that I had to do whatever it was I had to do to, like, put money on the table, you know what I'm saying? And that was, I think, like, when I went full throttle, you know? Like, my brothers were selling weed here and there, but, like, we ended doing some robberies and stuff

and coming up on money and like we bought our first pound of weed ounces and stuff or whatnot and then we started to sell ounces of weed and uh man like in a few months I want to say we went from like a thousand dollars like to pushing a shitload of weed

a lot of weed a lot you know we were ended up I don't know transported about like 500 700 grand in cash Santa Rosa and back, but they were only trips, you know, back and forth. Selling a lot of shit back then, you know. Ended up having nice things and new cars and shit. I could barely drive, but I always had a chauffeur for sure.

You know what I'm saying? I never drove my own cars, man. And how old are you? Like late teenage years? Yeah, this was like 18, 17 and 18. but the first 16 to 17 I pretty much just drinking and stuff stuff like that getting into trouble trying to dodge

dodge my peeve or whatnot you know ended up shit we ended up at a hotel one night and shit we had a lot of money in there and weed or whatnot and um fuck man somebody called us for some weed and shit we ended up hopping in the car

going to drop it off and my brother took a wrong turn or something and the cop started flashing behind us and flashed behind us we were at an airy queen a dairy queen and we were in the drive-thru I told them to slide through the

through the drive-through right and there was a cop at the front waiting for us and I knew it because he had to flash his lights you know and we just kind of just dipped through and I just grabbed the weed and grab the cash and I told him I'm going to try to escape from the door real quick

and I'm going to try to smash out to the store to the adult shop right next door so I smashed in there and my brother ends up leaving that spot the cops stopped him and he's like no there was two people in here they ended up finding me inside of the adult shop

I was in the bathroom and I had been flushing all the way down there and I stashed like 25 grand inside of I'm not sure what they're called it's like those little things you know where there's a toilet seat and stuff and then you put like a paper around the toilet seat

so I stashed like 25 grand inside of there and hopped outside I called a cab as soon as I came out of the fucking adult shop man they just lit me up like the fucking 4th of July bro they were all over guns and shit drawn on to me and shit like that. It was crazy.

Yeah, they ended up arresting me and they go in the search the adult shop. And on the paperwork, it says I got caught with $8,000. But that was no fucking $8,000. That was $25, man. You know what I'm saying? They pocketed at the rest. Yeah, somebody did some, man. You know what I'm saying?

Yeah, but I was thankful for it. I was like, well, shit, keep the $8,000 too. Fuck, man. Just let me go. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, in my head, that's what I was saying. I was like, fuck it. They should have just took the whole thing, you know.

Ended up going to prison for the first time at 18. How long was that sentence for? Only, like, 22 months, 22 months or something. I got a E-CS or something like that. Oh, fuck, man. I'm nervous with the fucking cameras and shit. But, yeah, I ended up catching that. went to prison for the first time man

I'll never forget the county jail and like that feeling you get when you're waiting for your courts and stuff like that you know and then when they finally said you're going to go to go to prison you know the big house and shit my first prison was EOCI in 04 and I get their 18 year old kid bro just fucking

scrawny little kid fucking crazy man they put us on the transport bus smashed us over there you know we're all in shackles and it was a summer so when we arrive you know the busing it's the chain and all these people had yard all the all the cons were doing yard at the time so at eo it's like they're all on the cage is staring at you you know like seeing and seeing who's coming in because a rat could come in or rapist or something like that. And so all the shot call has already got through people watching who they're going to get. You know what I'm saying?

Like, hey, that dude's a rat. As soon as he hits the mainline, it's going to get smashed out. You know what I'm saying? Or that dude's a rapist. He's no good. You know what I'm saying? So when I got there, you know, I got there. And I was like, holy shit.

We actually had to sign a form video. So there's these cones in the shit, maybe like 20. feet away from the fence on the yard and you can't cross those cones and if you do you have to sign this form saying that they can shoot you from the tower if not you can't hit yard you know what I'm saying and if you don't hit yard bro you look like a bitch because it seems like you're too afraid to hit that yard you know what I'm saying so everybody just signs it but you actually signed a paper that said that you know what I'm saying that you got the right to shoot me you know what I'm saying yeah

crazy. That was Eo. In 04, Eo was popping. It was cracking, man. A lot of people getting... It was fucking brutal, man. As soon as I get there, man, shit, the bice has hit me up. You know, you ain't a Sudanio, you ain't a gang member? I was, no, I don't bang, honey. You know what I'm saying? But I was already, like,

ready to fight because I heard all these damn stories like, okay, you know? As soon as you get there, bro, just show your colors real quick. You know what I'm saying? It's like you have to, bro. You know what I'm saying? So I got there, and... shit the Pisces were the first one to hit me up. The Pisces are a gang. Actually, we're the biggest gang, I think, in Oregon.

In prisons, we're the biggest gang. They're South Siders and everybody else. I think next is probably South Siders, and then all their brothers hang out to us, and the brothers, I think, are the closest right there. You know what I'm saying? Like the South Siders and us, man, we always fought it out every year in riots or whatnot. It was almost like clockwork every summer, you know.

Something's about to happen, a riot take off. Especially at Eyo in that time, it was crazy. But the bites is hitting you, yeah, when you get there, they take off your shirt and shit. You got to show you don't got no South Sider tattoos or nothing like that. And then you're a bison, you know? And I was like, all right, cool, man, you know. I guess I'm a bison now, you know what I'm saying? And I always felt really cool, like with the baisas, man, with the brothers,

because they were the ones that we sold drugs with, you know what I'm saying? They were the ones bringing in the shipments and stuff like that, you know? So I always felt this camaraderie between us, you know. And they were Hispanic fluid Spanish and all that, you know. They were culture, you know what I'm saying? I felt that at home. Yes, when I got there, yeah, I became a bicep, man. The shit that I seen in there really savaged me up, man,

because there'd be somebody just chilling right there. Man, you don't know what the fuck is going to happen, man. You're at a chow hall table eating food. dude there at the next table just ends up getting fucking beaten with a lock and a sock, you know what I'm saying? Just smacked until his face is

reconfigured, you know what I'm saying? Blood all over the spot and you're like, what the fuck, man? Spray with the fucking mason shit, you know what I'm saying? And, uh, yeah, man, that's how it went, so I ended up having to grow up really quick, man.

And in prison's another, it's another world, you know what I'm saying? I think the prison did something to me that time too, man, because when I got out, I didn't see things normal no more. Everything was about respect, respect, you know, because it's been ingrained into my head, like respect is everything, you know what I mean? I always told everybody, man, I was like, I don't want respect. I fucking demand it, you know what I'm saying?

And I always had that feeling about me. Like, you don't give me that respect, especially back then, man. I was already off on a dark path, you know what I'm saying? I was just waiting for a chance to alleviate my anger. You know what I'm saying? It wasn't even about having a future or being happy. I didn't see a future. It was, you know, I was always contemplating suicide back then.

But in my family, it was always thought of it like as weak. You know what I'm saying? So I was at a spot. I didn't know what to do. Didn't have a future. education. It just came out of prison, so I was like, shit, man. You know what I'm saying?

Shit, what do I do? So we just sold more and more drugs, you know what I'm saying? I had a boy, too. I had my little boy. And I had him right before I went to prison, right before I went to prison. So when I got out, he was, I don't know, 18 months or so. I got out, and I remember thinking the same thing. I was like, man, as soon as I got out, it was like I never left.

Like, I think three days later, I was already in California, sticking pounds in my trunk, bringing them back to Salem, you know. Yeah, my brothers got me like a Cadillac, like my first day out, paid for the Cadillac in cash, and got me the car. And then I remember installing the JVCs in the front to have the TVs. in the back, you know, flossing around. I remember we installed the Xbox. Back then, I think it was the Halo, I think,

like those big old boxes in the back. Yeah, we put in speakers and lights inside of the back, and they're like, here, bro. Yeah, congratulations, man. You know, you made it home, bro. I think it was something like them, and me taking one for the team kind of thing, you know? So when I got out, man, I was spoiled, you know what I'm saying?

But I just love. having that money, having that security, you know. You know, I had developed this attitude about, fuck, working for the fucking week, you know what I'm saying? I wanted money. Were you still considered a PISA after prison that second time? No, and there, you're a PISA. So the PISA just means you're hopping across the border

that you're from the motherland, you know what I'm saying? So it's strictly a prison gang? Yeah, yeah, strictly a prison gang. So once you leave, that's it. Yeah, yeah, you're good. You know what I'm saying? It's like a cultural thing, you know what I'm saying? Okay.

So, yeah, when I got out, you're selling those drugs and stuff or whatnot and making a lot of money, man. We had like little jet skis and shit like that. And I loved guns, so I had fucking everything. You know what I'm saying? All kinds of cool shit. shit, you know, vest and shit.

I usually get the little SWAT team hats to look like a SWAT team. You know what I'm saying? Dress down or whatnot. And one day I'm chilling there, man, and somebody owed us some money. We got a little scuffle. Yeah, got a little scuffle. And I was heading back home. And I was still all pumped up from the school.

scuffle, you know? This is so weird. When I was getting back to my apartment, my neighbor happened to be best friends with one of my old best friends. And my best friend was there. I hadn't seen him in years. And he ended up coming back. I guess he was on his way to a party or something. And he ended up being there, he forgot his wallet. And he came back for his wallet. And he came back for his wallet and I was happening happened to be coming back at the same time so we ended up catching each other there and he was

one of my best childhood friends he would bring me out food when I was sleeping on the streets you know what I'm saying? Blankets and shit like when I was 12 and he ended up yeah he ended up coming over over to my house

I didn't realize he had been on drugs and shit now you know he was doing a lot of drugs and I had a lot of things in my house. I had guns and money or whatnot. And he borrowed my phone. And he went off somewhere and he was on the phone, but he was being like secretive.

He was being quiet. And I always had this intuition about me. You know what I mean? Like I knew that something was wrong. And every, you know, we had a lot of shit in the house, a lot of cash. And he ended up bring the phone back. I got the phone back and I realized all the calls were,

they were blocked. He had erased him. And then when I hit him up about it, he said he had called the mom. And it was at that point that I knew that he was lying because he started getting shaky and nervous. And we ended up, I took him to my room real quick.

And I was like, hey, hey, come over here real quick, bro, I got to talk to. And I take out the gun and I questioned him, you know. And he started stuttering and stuff like that. And I told him, who were you calling, bro? This is important. You know what I'm saying?

And as soon as he started giving me like two or three answers, I weren't the same. There were different answers. I knew that he was lying. I beat him. Yeah, that that happened in my room. And then just so happened to be that some girls were there too. Yeah, my cousin's girl.

And it was me and my cousin and another cousin. So I guess my cousin heard the scuffle inside of my room. And he came and knocked, opened the door up, and then we dragged him out out to my living room. and, you know, yeah, we ended up putting hands on them. And I had the gun out. And, yeah, I had the gun out, and I happened to be going to my fridge for another beer. And I left the gun on the TV set I had.

and my cousin was right next to it and my victim, he was on the floor. And when I went to grab a beer, I came back and my cousin had had the gun. And, uh, yeah, long story short, he was on his, he was on his knees or whatnot. I remember my victim, you know, on his knees. And, uh, shit.

He started praying. And when he prayed, our gunshot went off, shot him in the head. I didn't shoot him. Yeah, but he was about like four feet away from me. Like when that happened. There was something weird about that moment, man, you know? I had been, I became an atheist after all the shit I seen in my life. You know what I'm saying?

Didn't believe that there was a God or nothing like that. But when that happened, it was no doubt in my mind that something exists that was bigger than me for sure. felt something leave his body, you know? I felt it. It was like, it was a tangible thing. You know what I'm saying? Like, you could actually fill it. And I remember him asking me how to pray.

And he was stirring me in the eyes when he was praying. Yeah, when the gunshot went off. And, uh, yeah, I remember that. And I remember seeing his eyes. And I remember that the gun went off. In my head, I feel like he was blinking afterwards after the gun went off, you know. He was blinking as if he was trying to understand what had just happened to him.

That he was dead, you know what I'm saying? Almost like a surreal experience for him where he was, he got shot and like the impact, you know, tilt his head a little while and a little bit and then he ended up just staring at me almost like his brain was still working you know i know that he was he was gone but that's that's how it felt and i knew at that moment that we crossed the boundary not meant to ever be crossed a human type of thing you know where you're extracted from the tunnel of a collective realm, you know what I'm saying? It's like there's this tunnel we all exist in a universal awareness that we all have. And then when you do something like that, you're immediately

extracted and you're taken to another type of dimension where you're forever isolated from the world, you know. And that's where I was. At that point, I knew inside of my heart and my soul's something had happened, you know. Why did it escalate to that between, you know, the guy was on the couch, you beat him up, how did it go from you walking casually to a beer, the room's calm, and then all of a sudden... No, it wasn't calm at that time. I'd beaten, I'd beat him up, and I continued beating him up. And the more that escalated, the more anger I felt.

And if I could go back, you know, you wouldn't do it. But now, being me now, going back. and thinking about it, it wasn't him. It wasn't him that I was angry at. It was about the world, you know. I was angry at my situation. Angry, there ain't no word for it, man. It was just fucking anger.

You know what I'm saying? And I remember filling that, filling that shit and just... It was going back to my brother passing away, you know. I always felt like my brother, like there was this thing. a belief I had in like this darkness, this entity, you know, it was like God, somehow,

some way, you know what I'm saying? But at the same time, I would always battle through, is God who he is or what? You know what I mean? But I remember feeling like I prayed for my brother to be alive, you know, when I was a kid and I was raised in church and I was always told that, you know, God can bring people back from the dead. So when I was eight and he was inside of that casket, I remember feeling, like if I prayed hard enough, he would come out.

You know what I'm saying? He would actually come back back to life. And when he didn't, I grew so angry, you know? So I always felt like I wanted to get back, you know? And so the whole praying thing when he was praying, um, that's some dark shit, man. Fuck, man.

Did you know your cousin was going to execute him? Hmm. I think at that point, I didn't know but I felt felt like perhaps either of us were going to do it

you know it was it was a lot you know what I'm saying there was no stopping it no more it was like an amalgamation of of anger

you know it just accumulated into this one moment and that was it So what's the aftermath of this? What happens? Okay, so ended up dragging them into my tub, grabbed some knives, smashed in there.

My cousin started chopping him up. He chopped off his legs. It went through his stomach. pretty graphic man yeah you know it was dark there's some more stuff that happened

but some of the stuff I can't talk about you know do you guys successfully hide the body or you never make it that far no so I was already I was already

I sold to a lot of people sold a lot of dope to a lot of people I knew a lot of people and there was these farmers that said If we ever had a body, we could take it over there. So, called him up, bagged him up, put him in bags, and then hook him out there, hook him out there, put him in a truck, put the body to a truck.

But he was there for three days inside of my home, while we actually found a place, the place to take him to, you know. We ended taking them out there, gave some money to my cousin so we could leave the state. And I stayed there. He ended up going to Washington with my aunts and my cousins drinking a lot. And I guess he was having trouble sleeping. And he ended up telling my aunts and my uncles or something like that, like my cousin. cousins.

And they ended up calling the cops on us. Your family. Yeah. Yeah, they didn't have nobody. He ended up calling the cops. And I guess when he went over there, told him what had happened, he implemented me in some of that. So, yeah, we were on our way to go see him. I wanted to talk to him because I had heard that he'd been saying some stuff out there.

So I wasn't sure. I wanted to confront the situation smashed over there Yeah I can't say a lot of this stuff But yeah when we were out there On our way over there I got a call saying that he was arrested Your cousin was arrested

Yeah And that they were after you Yeah so I knew at that point That I was going down for something You know I was angry though I was really upset I mean man you can't begin to tell

fucking all the emotions and the feelings you're having at that time when you know your life is over. You know what I'm saying? I had already been suicidal, so it was like, okay, you know, I'm here, brought to the earth. I think I fucked this life up. You know what I'm saying? I think I might just forfeit it. You know what I'm saying? And so I was ready.

I was contemplating just going out on a shoot. or something, like with the police. But in the back of my head, there was always this thing, like, what if you end up getting caught up and you beat it, you know what I'm saying? It was always that thing, that little spark of hope. So, yeah, we end up going through there. Yeah, the cops ended up catching me on a PV. It was a PV.

And I was about 10 feet away from my gun. And I was outside smoking a cigarette, and my gun was inside. The cops catch me on a PV, hit me up, take me to county. And then when I'm there, I detectives hit me up. And charged me with everything. Or the final charges? Charges were murder. They didn't really know much

But they hit me with murder They hit me with I don't know all kinds of shit Abuse of a corpse Kidnap one Assault Felling with a firearm A lawful use of a firearm

All kinds of shit like that And Yeah when that shit hit the fin It was like News all day I was on the news, you know what I'm saying? Every week, you know, we're on the news and shit like that. Man, we ended up...

I was facing 47 years. It was my first offer, I think. 47. I told my lawyer I had paid, I don't know, 70,000 from my lawyer. I was like, hey, you know, 47 years was his first. He goes, no, just wait, man. Shit, don't take it yet. and my cousin could have saved me at that point.

He could have said, you know, I didn't have shit to do with it or whatnot, trying to save me a little bit, but he ended up just being quiet in hopes of nothing happening to him. But there was already a lot of witnesses, you know what I'm saying? There was, I mean, information coming from everywhere, you know? So I ended up shit.

sitting there facing that sentence, man. Fucking crazy. Man, they came at me with 47, 37, and 27 years with the last offer. 27 years. And I talked to my lawyer, and I was like, well, let's just take it to trial. I knew that I was going to lose it, you know?

I was going to lose trial. There was way too many witnesses. There was a female that was there inside of the apartment. and my cousin's girlfriend. And she had seen me beat the dude. So they had took, they found her inside like some kind of, like some kind of crack house.

I guess she went crazy after that because she's seen the body and stuff like that. So she had a lot of trauma. Yeah, they ended up finding her inside of a crack house, inside the closet. And then they took her, they put her in that particular,

detective custody and sobered her up and she became a witness. Yeah, so when her statement came out, that's when I knew that I was done, you know. Yeah, around that time, my dad had gotten in trouble too. That was the last time I ever talked to my dad. well not the last time I talked to him talked to him on a personal level you know he ended up catching some kind of rate beef or some shit like that and I disassociated myself from my dad

and during that time he had heard what had happened from another brother that was in there on a PV and my dad happened to take that information went to the lawyer and told him he had some information in regards were murder that his son had committed in exchange for a deal. But it's crazy because even the cops didn't believe him, you know? So they never gave him that deal.

But it was something that ended up on my discovery. Crazy shit ends up on your discovery, man. You know what I'm saying? Shit, man, I lost my train to throw out of you. So how much time do you end up getting? Okay, so I ended up 27 years and then when I went there to take that deal, they told me, just come back. So my lawyer was shocked too. Turns out they didn't.

They found his body like a year and a half later. Oh, they never had the body. No, no, they didn't have the bodies. When they found the body, they found him in a hog feed barrel. He had been decomposing for 20 months. So when they found out, when they found out, that was when I knew that I was pretty much toast. But inside of the can, there was a body.

There was a torso and there was thighs. And so they found it, and they never found his other half and his head. And me and my cousin were the only ones that knew where that was. So when I went to, to take the 27 years, they said we got one more deal for you. And in my head, I was already thinking, if I get anything more than 20 years, I'm going to hang it up.

I was like, I'm fucking done. I'm fucking tired, man, you know. It wasn't that I didn't think I could do the time. I knew I could. I was just tired, fucking exhausted, man. Shit's been going on since I was a fucking kid, you know. Just fucking tired. And I had a plan to call it quits, you know.

and they ended up coming me with a deal saying, well, hey, if you could tell us where the head and his legs are at, we'll get you a maximum of 180 months, and plus the time you spend in county. So I don't know, 16 years or so. They were at a park. So we put them in a park. So I wasn't sure if they were actually going to find them.

because the park was fucking huge man it's a big lake you know what I'm saying and I remember the boots that he was wearing and everything it's like crystal clear

in my head and shit you know what I'm saying so I knew exactly like he still had a pant leg on his on his leg you know

the boot he had on himberlin boots and um so my attorney made a deal, contract. It's an okay.

But we're going to tell you that if nothing turns up, it is what it is sort of deal, you know. You know, so we got to find that. So we did that. Ended up taking them to the lake. And actually me and my cousin did both. Take him to the lake and there was nothing there. I think they found a boot.

it had already been at the time that happened shit man it had already been like 22 months 23 months and it was weird man because it's a park it's huge I'm like shocked that nobody found it you know what I'm saying and even now they still haven't found it

um yeah fucking crazy huh yeah yeah so ended up getting sentenced then when I was in sentence in the county I remember knowing that his mom and dad were going to be there, you know, his mom and dad.

His mom used to let me sleep at his house when I was a kid, when I was 12. Sometimes she wouldn't want me around because I was the bad kid, so I'd have to stay outside and sleep outside across the street from his house. It was our school and Walker's School, and there was these benches right there that I used to sleep at. And sometimes he would, you know, bring me food and shit. And it was one of the images in my head that stuck with me during the, during the course of my crime, you know? Yeah, man.

Yeah, I ended up facing the mom in court and shit. That was one of the hardest things, you know. You come up with things you want to say, but everything's pathetic. You can't, there ain't no sorry that exists. You know what I'm saying? The one thing I do remember telling her, I was like, I hope you can forgive me, you know,

not for my sake but for yours you know i told her and i was like there's nothing there's nothing anybody can do to me that is worse than what i've done to myself just rest assured i'm paying the consequences you know what i'm saying i'll always pay the consequences it wasn't the only one that died you know there was a couple people who inside of that, like within that moment, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, for sure. And even now I still feel that way. It was always a curse after that, you know, you can't do things like that and be free, you know?

Did you ever get to talk to your mom? I mean, his mom after that? No, she had this long list, what was it, 13 pages, I think. She wanted to read to me, and when she got up in court, just said you're a monster, you're disgusting. You know, the whole family, they got up in an uproar. And there's nothing I could say,

you know what I'm saying? Just accept it. You know, they put the pictures out they found them in the courtroom. Yeah, those pictures are what I had in my discovery as well. And I ended up going to prison. And when I was in prison,

those pictures, as crazy as it sounds, one of the things I would look to when things were really crazy, in there when we're like super dark and I would look at those pictures and I'd remind myself you ain't feeling sorry for yourself bro you know what I'm saying

you put yourself in this shit you know go full throttle now there ain't no way out you know what was your final sentence I got a 189 months like 16 years you only got 16 years that was my max

what did your cousin get he got 25 he got 25 with the chance of parole after but he ended up getting another 17 years while he was in prison Yeah, well, he was in prison. For, like, an assault. For smashing on cops, he beat up a cop.

I ended up getting in the fight with my cousin. And they put you in the same prison. Yeah, yeah, they put us in the same block. And both our gangs almost clashed over it. Who was he with? He was a south sideer. And you're a Pisa. I was a Pisa, and we had beef.

So when I get there, he was like, he's like, bro. I'm like, bro, please, you know what I'm saying? He said, just fucking leave, bro. Like, I don't want to have to do this. You know what I'm saying? I told him, hey, you know what? There's no way I'm going to leave this place, bro. We're going to do this.

You know what I mean? We have to. Because I had been a shot caller in my prison. In the prison, I just came from. And I was in charge of like, okay, this dude's got to do this and this dude's got to do that. He fucked up, you know what I'm saying? It was the same thing I was brought into, you know what I'm saying?

And I was like, hey, fuck it, you know. Shit, you're here now, kid. You better, better grow up, man. That's what I was told. You know what I'm saying? So I couldn't be that guy and then end up fucking, I didn't want to fight my cousin, man. It sucked, you know what I'm saying?

But I knew we had to do what we had to do, you know what I mean? And there was no way that I was going to leave that place, PC up, you know? So I was like, no, man, there's no way that I could tell these people to do something. and then when it comes time, you know what I'm saying? I end up backing out, hell no. So, you know, like we both had our weapons on us or whatever. You know, we were going to do it big. And then I seen him pass his weapon to somebody else,

and I gave mine to my brother. And my brother, I was in here, and we were all in prison. Oh, he was at the same one, too. Yeah, I've been cellies with all my brothers. Yeah, so, You know, doing that. As soon as I seen them pass it, I gave mine away. And then, man, it's procedure to beat the living shit out of them right through the yard.

You know what I'm saying? There's a lot of people watching us. And I'm a bice of the south side or so. Both the gangs were really tense at that time because we were just dukeing it out, you know. The cops smashed me on the floor. They put a can of mace on me. I couldn't feel it, though. I didn't feel it.

I just covered up, smelt on the floor. And they had him down, and then a cop had his boot on my face. And I was like, I protected myself from the mace really quick. I got a look. I seen where he was. Then I twisted the cop's leg

and went for him again, like when he was on the floor, grabbing him in a little choke hole and just started swinging and covering my, face and I just kept going until they tackled me and put some more mace on my face. I think they did like two or three cans. You ended up hock-tieing me. They carried me out. I didn't even get walked out. I was carried out. You know what I'm saying?

My wrist is all fucked up, you know? Yeah, man, I got there when I was 20 years old, though, man, and I never forget getting there and thinking, I was going to do so much time. At first, I wanted to do good and change and everything. But then when I was there, like, a week into it, somebody's... One of the dudes came from a California prison, and he was trying to call shots for his gang there, and the other gang there was like,

fuck you, you ain't calling shots over here, you know what I mean? Those fucking Cali rules don't fly here. And then this guy was talking about this. He was like, fuck you. And he ended up fighting like 10 dudes back to back. And so he was exhausted. and he was on the phone and somebody he ended up slicing his whole face open.

Wow. Yeah, but he was a gee about it because he just covered up really quick. Covered up, all the blood coming out and he was bleeding profusely smashes in his cell when he pushes the button instead of that he just attempted to commit suicide. You know, that's why he had the gash on his face, on his neck.

And he ended up saying that he actually saved his life by doing that because a little longer he had, he would have bled out, you know. Yeah, so that was like a week, week or two in a prison, you know. So when a chance came to prove myself, I took the chance and they were like, all right, man, we got a, there was like these little pins, right? And there was a short stick. And whoever picked the short stick was the next one to take out somebody,

like they had to take somebody. And there was a group of us. I said, you know what? Just save those pins, man. I'm gonna I'll get that guy right now really quick I should don't worry about it I'm just go pack my shit up really quick

I went up I always kept my bags packed up and all my stuff you know what I'm saying so I just I put it in a box or a box inside of a big bag everything on my hygiene and stuff and I came down the stairs I shook everybody's hand

and he was like yeah I mean it's that guy right there playing cards and I never like punching somebody from the back you know I just felt like it was a coward move. So I go over there to the card table. This dude looks small sitting down. But when the son of a bitch got up, it was like, gosh damn, man. He's a big guy. You know what I say? I went over there threw the hands, threw his cards out from the side. It gets up and I get, boom, I'll let him have it.

And once I got that first punch in, he wasn't going nowhere, you know. Got him down on the floor, started smashing his face, and I couldn't think of nothing. I could. couldn't even hear the cops say stop fighting. I guess they told me to stop fighting, but at that point there was so much of a rush going through my head. I couldn't hear anything. I ended up smashed them out right there, and they ended up, I think that was the first time I was sprayed.

I was sprayed with mace. It take me to the hole, smash me out, and my hands were pretty swollen. I was like, son of a bitch, my finger's not working right, you know. they're like, so when they finally took the x-rays, like, three weeks later, you know, it was like, yeah, that hand's completely broken, bro. Like, your finger's completely broken in half. I didn't realize it.

Why did you need to do a send-off mission when you were already a part of the Pice's in your previous? Oh, because when you get there, bro, you put in work. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, if there's a lot of homeboys there, like, so the homeboys that have already had, like, they're working, they're the ones that are secured. And when you go there, if there's a mission, everybody's clean, it falls down to the new guys, you know what I'm saying? And the faster you get through that process,

the faster you get to your respect, you know what I'm saying? And so it was really fast, you know what I'm saying? It was like, and I knew that I was going to be in there for a lot of years, man. So I was like, this is my home. I was like, fuck this. I ain't going to get into this small, small little, I don't want to make a statement. You know what I mean? I was already thinking about other shit, you know,

know like fuck it if I have to put a hold through somebody I'll do it you know because at that point where you're in there you're thinking you're hopeless man you I was a I was only 20 and it didn't seem like 21 some around there it seemed like you know like there was no hope man so you know this is this is it you know and I didn't see an out date it was hard to see an out date because in order to see an out date you got to have emotions and feelings and actually have that hope you know, that one day I'm going to make it home to my kids, to my family. But that wasn't the case because in order to make it back, you got to do the things you got to do, you know.

If you ain't living, you can't be there for your family anyway. You know what I'm saying? So I ended up, like, confunded that situation wholeheartedly. But it wasn't like you just have balls one day. You get up and you have balls. Fuck, no. You feel this fear that paralyzes your, your body. You know what I mean? Just like when I was six. And at that moment, it's either do or die.

You know what I'm saying? And I said, fuck it. Hold hard of you, you know? Take that shit out of my chest. Take all the emotions, like that human aspect of me out of my chest. It's gone. You know what I'm saying? We're going. How are you able to become a shock caller so young? I didn't become a shot caller until I was 23, 24. That's still pretty young. Yeah, it is. I think because of my crime and because that first fight I did right there, I knocked dude out. And I ended up beating the shit out of him.

And then I ended up getting into another fight. And then I ended up having a shot caller keys inside of a unit. So this was at Who Rivers. So TriVivers has units. And there's one shot caller. And then inside of each unit there's a shot caller. collar, but there's one shot caller for the whole thing. You know what I'm saying?

For the whole thing. So I ended up being there at a time when it was, I ended up being a shop caller at a unit first. And when I was shot caller at that unit, this is when I actually started calling shots. There was a beef with the white guys, with the white boys. And there was a beef between one of their people, one of my people, and they wanted to to catch their fades, you know? And I was like, okay, that's cool.

I got to watch, though, just to be sure that the dude ain't gonna get it over on my dude if he falls first, you know, because I wasn't having it, you know? And he ended up fighting. My dude ends up losing. And I stopped the fight before it got crazy. But two weeks prior, there was another fight.

And our dude, beat the shit out of his dude, broke his jaw with some boots. He hit him in the face. He kicked him and shit and broke his shit. You know what I'm saying? Like completely, his jaw was like to the side. And he was like, yeah, well, we didn't stop that fight.

You know what I'm saying? So you ain't stopping this one. And as soon as he came a little closer, I go, uh, look at me. I don't want to know, boom. And I just took off in mid-sentence. And as soon as I took off on him, everybody just jumped. and we all just started fighting

boom boom boom and it was a riot and he was the shot call it for them and I had him in the corner at two rivers outside there's a door smashing his face into the door

and it made a noise so there was there was no no cops out there man so when you're out there you're fighting and there's no cop around to stop the damn fight, she gets crazy. You know what I'm saying? So when in there fighting, everybody's fighting. He starts yelling for his friend. His friend gets away from one of my friends, comes at me from the side, hits me with a cup, with these coffee mugs, smashes my face.

I got a metal plate in my face right here. It did the surgery from inside of my mouth. smashes my face like when I was serving this other guy and I remember seeing everything go black it was like the first time I've ever been knocked out so

see the whole thing go black for a second and my knees gave way and it fucking pissed me off man you know what I'm saying and I had something in my pocket so the guy I ended up seeing black

and I came too really quick It was like a second or two. It was strange. Ended up coming back and shit. And then my friend grabs the dude that was getting me, grabbed him from the side and flips him over. And when I seen who it was, I went over there, started smashing him. And, yeah, I don't want to talk about that stuff either.

But he ends up getting stabbed in the face a few times. And I end up having this one. whole thing reconfigured, you know what I'm saying? It was like, fractured in five spots in my,

in my cheekbone. And, yeah, I end up going to the whole, I think I went to the whole shit for a, for a 120 that first time,

that four months stint. They called them like 120s, 180s or whatever, like 180s. Shit, yeah, after that is pretty much when I could,

like, become a shot caller man it's not about who uh who respects your or not it's about like fuck them you know what i'm saying like i don't care you know what i'm saying and i realized really really quickly too is like in prison man like the politics are bullshit you know what i'm saying even in other gangs are taking out their own gang sometimes right catch from their own gangs and like the politics. Somebody could be clean. Somebody could be good.

And they still smash him out and find out later on that he was good, you know. It was an accident. So I really didn't respect, like, you know, their decisions are nothing, nothing like that. So I just kept going, man. I kind of just did me. You know what I'm saying?

And shit, sorry, I'm a damn phone, man. Yeah. ended up going and doing all my shit in there, man. And I got in a lot of shit in there. I ended up doing four and a half years, five years in solitary. How many years do you serve on a 16-year sentence? Everything. Because you lost all your good time?

No, no, there was no good time. Oh, so that was a mandatory 16. Yeah, that was a mandatory sentence. There was no good time. Have you ever talked to your cousin again? Yeah, yeah, I did. He retired from his gang as of, shit a few years ago

while in prison he retired from his gang you know I'm dropping out bro that's it what about your mom another prison what happened to her my mom man yeah she had a rough life man

now she suffered from dementia you know me and my brother take care of her you know in prison man you come to terms with a lot of the shit that happened to you as a kid you know you always played this poor me type of mentality but i got tired of playing that shit you know i just wanted to confront myself

and forgive myself find peace you know what i'm saying and uh for a long time i couldn't find peace man i had a lot of anger man a lot of anger and it disturbed my being you know what i'm saying solitary it's crazy it's like they peeled off layers of your humanity and all you have left is your anger so you exist as this entity inside of there it's just really dark, you know. I was, I wrote this piece, man, when I got older, like for college, University of Oregon, I started going there. I taught myself how to read and write in prison, you know.

But they had this prompt, like, tell me what's it like to lose your body? And then I wrote this piece called The Poultragized, right? Where I was in solitary and you exist as an energy, you know. you're like you ain't able to leave your print on the world no more you're just an energy now you know you're just a ball of frustration you exist as a ghost you hear about what's going on at home all the bad shit but you can no longer interact

and all you are is this you know this volcanic you know explosion you know inside of your heart and um that's what I wrote about man I wrote about my daughter and shit you know I was like the worst thing to happen was she ended up she was around when her uncle got shot and killed and that was like he was the closest thing she had

is like to like a father figure growing up and then when I heard about that I wasn't solitary and this I guess the sergeant came down and hit me up and it was like hey man the chaplain wants to talk to you and I knew that somebody had died because any time the chaplain wants to talk to to you, you know, somebody dies. So, yeah, they ended up taking me over there for the call, call my daughter, and I was like, oh, shit, man.

It's fucking crazy. And I could talk to her for five minutes. That's all I could get with her. But that was the one thing that hurt me. Everything else, I was so cold, I really didn't give a shit no more. But when I heard my daughter's voice and her crying out for me, I think it folded me, man. You know what I'm saying?

What's your relationship with her now? It was hard at first, man, because when I came out, I was entering like another planet. It felt like, man, I had accumulated 20 years incarcerated, so, like, way more years on the inside than I did out, you know? I always, the one thing that fucking yelled was this respect thing that I had that I held so, like, so dear. And I didn't know how to take this respect, you know what I'm saying?

Because in there somebody disrespects you, man, you have to do something, you know what I'm saying? So I didn't know how to do that. So when I came out, it was hard for me to accept when even family members were disrespectful for me. You know what I mean? I didn't know how else to confront it, you know what I'm saying? So when my daughter was telling me like, Dad, you weren't there for me and you weren't there. And I could hear that from her, but it was hard for me to like to connect with her on that.

level, you know. I tried to do things, but it was, I couldn't. I was still trying to find my way, you know, and it created like this barrier between us, and it was wrenching, you know what I'm saying? Because you want to be there, but you just don't know how, you know, something's inherently wrong with you, but you haven't quite figured it out yet, you know, but you do know something's wrong with you, you know. So it made it really hard, hard to communicate with her and my son, too, you know and it wasn't what i stayed drunk man about a year year and a half after i came home and i was drunk every single day i would go to my victim's house well his old house i sit there and drink myself to death in front of his house and i was i was going going crazy at that point

you know i was working every day all day working coming back and drinking and i'd sit there and talk to ghost, you know what I'm saying? Laugh with them, joke around with them. But really, I was just talking to myself inside of my car. And finally, I just woke up one day, and I was like, you know what, this is going to be the last day I drink. I got shit face that day called detox, quit my job, everything. You know, because I had gotten now, and I was staying with my brothers,

and my brothers all drink. So that was the place I had to go to, and I was, chilling there and everybody was drinking and i just went all out but then after that year and a half i was like i didn't suffer all this shit all these years inside man thinking about like what the fuck man like i i went through a lot of shit man you know what i'm saying just to come out and fuck up so i i made a decision at that point you know i had a place and everything but something inside of me told me no man somebody's life got taken and this is around the time i started thinking differently too man i started thinking about like i i fell in love with having compassion for other human

beings man you know what i'm saying i found a meaning in that um ended up going to the detox i got there so drunk man it was like eight at eight o'clock you know what i'm saying the night your shit face got their shit face they were watching me i couldn't even feed myself i was shaking i thought i was going to go to seizures for alcohol. Just drenched sweat and stuff, you know, doing my detox. I was there for like a week, and then they got me in this program.

I had a mission, and I had to humble myself, and I was like, man, I went from having all this shit, you know, money in my pockets, to being here at this program, man. And during that course, you know, there was one thing about the program that was kind of cool

is that I was actually taking time to reflect, getting in touch with me. Because that was the only time I had to actually process all the shit that had happened, you know? Like square one, you know what I'm saying? The whole thing, you know, everything, all the years I spent in there and shit. And I got to work with the homeless, man, because on the top, you're programming. So you're there for a minute, you know.

It's not an ugly place. It's nice, you know. But downstairs is all homeless people, so I started to have. hanging out with the homeless and I started helping them out and man I could just feel their pain bro you know what I'm saying like for somebody to fucking forfeit their whole entire life because they're in so much pain and they want to take another hit as something just to cover their reality for a day even though they know that they're going to end up you know what I mean without a home nothing just completely fucked you know for somebody to want to escape their past that bad

shit's got to be real you know what I'm saying and I just got a compassion for that man I know a lot of people you know and say them that don't like the homeless but for me I don't know man caring about other people is something larger than me you know what I'm saying it gives me meaning I think that that's what I'm here on this earth for man is I want to help you know what I'm and I couldn't find peace nowhere I didn't believe love existed for the longest time man you know and when I grasped this concept of love that started changing me started

there was this girl that used to visit me when I just did my three years in solitary I came out and she started to visit me and that was the first time I actually had contact with somebody and I was touching her hand and I was seeing the fragility of her fingers you know the way she smelled her hair

it was fucking foreign to me you know it was the most beautiful thing ever and um she had kids and she ended up bringing her kids to see me and me and this kid developed a bond it was such an amazing bond because this kid didn't

she didn't waste no time she got on my lap she started looking at my eyes my lips and my nose she's like you got really beautiful teeth Victor and she'd have been saving she had heard me and her mom talking about getting a lawyer maybe

I know it was bullshit man I wasn't coming home you know what I'm saying but she had heard me and her mom talking about like a lawyer maybe or something like that entertaining the idea. So the kid comes like two weeks later and she's like Victor, mom Victor, she goes, I got an announcement to make

and I was like, yes, sweetheart, what's up? And she was on my lap. She goes, she had been wanted a dog for like three years. She'd been saving up like dollar here, you know, $2 there. She goes, I got an announcement to make. I'm going to take the money I get from my dog

and I'm going to get Victor a lawyer. And yeah, that was definitely fuck that was a moment for sure man you know I had been this ball of energy just ruthless and everything

and something like that just tore my reality apart my conclusion was you know love is bullshit it's a fucking myth and the faster you realize that the faster you can get on with your life and be fear of free of any pain, you know what I'm saying? Just fuck it.

Who cares? But if love did exist, then I was in fucking trouble, man, because I got a lot to pay for, you know? And I think that's what... That was the first brick thrown at that wall that broke that conclusion, man. And I started, you know, entertaining the idea, you know? And I didn't know how to be with somebody, man.

I didn't know how to have love and hate in the same heart. You know what I'm saying? It was almost like you can't, you know? So I had to forfeit something some way. But the more she kept coming to see me is the more she humanized me, I think, you know, the feelings you have for other people. And that was my first time. And even though it didn't end up happening for us,

I wholeheartedly believe that if she hadn't come to see me or, I didn't get no visits in prison. If she hadn't came to see me, I think. I don't think I would have made it out. You know, I was already intent on being there for the rest of my life, I think, at that point. There was a few instances, you know, by God's grace, that I didn't end up doing life in there. There was moments where we were going to have this riot one time. and I had a big old piece on me, big old shank.

And we were waiting for the room, rumor to come in from the kitchen. We were waiting for the rumor who had jumped our boys back in another unit. And if we had found out that it was one of the guys downstairs, we were going to go on a riot as soon as he came in and informed me about it. And in my head at that moment, I remember I was a kid, man. I must have been like 26, 27. And I was fully intent. I knew who I was going for.

And I knew what I had on me. And I had my boots laced and everything. And as soon as the doors were going to pop, we were going to go. And I knew where I was going to take them to and everything, you know? Because there's cameras over here. There's someone over there. But I was like, fuck it, man.

And when the dude came in, he'd set you up. Yeah, those dudes did it. You know what I'm saying? So I knew that as soon as the dude, doors open because on the top, the top floor, you can see it coming in. And then the guy coming in from the kitchen, he looked up and he said, said like that. You know what I'm saying? It was like, all right, cool.

It's going down. I started pacing back and forth in the cell. And I remember I was, yeah, we were going to do it. You know what I'm saying? And if that had happened, I don't think I would have came out of prison. Like, after that, almost immediately after that, One of the guys downstairs had pushed the button and informed the police that there was a riot about to take place and that he was scared. So the cops come, they take the shot callers first.

They take me. And when they came to my door, I had that piece and I turned around. I started unfolding it. There was these adapters for CD players, these thick adapters like this thick. and a couple socks I put the adapter inside of a couple socks and I tied it in or not and then I had that other thing on me

and I was like alright cool boom boom I broke it apart and then I undid the socks and I was undoing the socks the cop was behind me hey González submit to your restraints fuck you the fuck out of here punt you know what I'm saying fuck you hold on

And I'm fucking turning around because I knew you catch more time and shit for this. You know what I'm saying? And end up throwing that away and going to the hole on investigation. Altogether, I want to say I did like four and a half or five years in solitary. But that was one of the moments. I was in there for a month on investigation. But if that hadn't happened on that day, that was, I think, the closest I had ever. been to because my psychological state was fucked you know what I'm saying I was fully determined at that

point and if that hadn't happened just a weird shit like that happens you know what I'm saying you're like damn I ended up in the hole and then getting transferred somewhere else because I was a STG was your security threat group and then they change your prisons once your STG you ended up changing prisons so you can be in one place as soon as you hear you're doing something there they change you to another one, you know, shit the diesel treatment. Diesel therapy. Yeah, diesel therapy for sure. Uh-huh.

When you go, you know, they transport you for whatever so you can never do a program or nothing. You can be in college and they don't give a fuck, you know, transport your ass somewhere else. What advice would you give to your teenage self? Advice is hard, man. Like the macho thing, man, you know? Just don't be so afraid of love, you know what I'm saying? Now, growing up, now I see it was, I had this fear of ever caring for people, of loving people, you know what I'm saying? I never, like the shit that comes with it, you know what I'm saying?

All the pain, I think I was terrified of it. I lost so many people. And because of that, I kind of, I went cold. You know what I'm saying? and unfortunately there was consequences for that you know what I'm saying yeah man for sure you know but now here I am man I'm doing a lot of these interviews which is pretty cool back at home

I just the other day I talked to a representative and you know actually talking with these people and I'm like man man they actually talk to me you know what I'm saying it's like so weird you know but I'm going back to college here in January. I got my grants applying for scholarships right now. I don't got shit to my name, so I'm starting over. But it feels good, man. Even though I don't got shit, it feels like for the first time I'm on a right path, you know.

And I got this energy, man, this, like this love, you know, where, you know, I was taking it back, bro. But when I first came home and when I went to like get pizza and shit like that and people would say like thank you for coming, I would want to fucking cry, man. He was like, I ended up getting a job as a gas station, right? Pumping gas when I first came home. And I was walking home one night and it was late and the stars were just fucking beautiful. You know, it was just beautiful, man, and I realized I could walk any fucking where I could walk as far as I will,

you know what I'm saying, as far as I wish. And I just broke down. It sounds simple, right, but I sat there on the curve. I had to catch my breath. And I just put the hoodie over me, and I just broke down right there. And I was just broke down like a baby, you know what I'm saying? Just, what fuck is this? You know what I'm saying?

And thinking about it because of all the, I mean if if I go back and I remember drinking pruno inside of my cell and thinking in solitary I'm I made I made pruno in solitary and I would put the little headphones on

that they give you in a in long term solitary I am you I'm going to sit there and I would pretend that I had a social life drinking my beer and drinking my puno and and hearing the music play and shit you know I'll be like jamming out in my head and acting like I was at a club or something,

you know what I'm saying? But that was the only social life I had, you know, I hadn't been touched by another human being. You know, the only thing, like, they touch you with gloves because you're like a, like you're disgusting inmate. You know what I'm saying? And they put the shackles on you and the handcuffs. They're restraints, you know.

They don't just restrain your physical being. They restrain your, like, your psychological self. You know what I'm saying? they they incarcerate your psychology like your whole existence yeah so I don't know man

I just after all this shit right it's like I find so much freedom and just I don't know man just like caring about people

some of these homeless some of the homeless dudes I encounter out there man I sit back and I hear their stories you know like fuck man I feel you bro you know what I'm saying but it's it's

those moments where I feel happy to be alive for the first time and I hadn't been happy to be alive for a very long time you know so uh yeah man well Victor I appreciate you man this was uh

well you know one of those interviews that is just incredible you know um you came prepared to share your story and uh you did a amazing job doing so and I think it's really going to resonate with the audience and you know you just keep doing you man keep pushing forward you know stay on the saddle and and and keep focused and you know I wish you the best with everything that you have going on appreciate you in man

it was awesome yeah thank you for reaching out to me to give me this story man it means a lot yeah I'm I'm hoping to do some more here soon man hopefully you know what I mean yeah hopefully hopefully Hopefully somebody sees this and reaches out again so we can do do some more shit like this. I think tons of people are going to see it and they're really going to relate to this story. And, you know, they're going to feel your rawness and realness and stuff. And that goes a long way. It's the people that come and are honest and real and raw that resonate the most with the audience. That's awesome, brother.

Hey, man. Well, I love you, man. You too, brother. Appreciate the chance, brother. Yeah. And I'm fucking stoked about what you did, bro, what you're doing. it means so fucking much to me, bro, because folks incarcerated don't got a voice, bro. And that's such a fucking, that's so deep, bro.

Like, man, you're a voice for all these people that don't have none, bro. And you started that shit. Man, you got a lot to be proud of, man. This is awesome, man. One day at a time, we're trying to change it, you know? Oh, yeah, bro. That's why the platform's open to anyone. I'm just one DM away from someone being able to sit where you're sitting and share the story.

And I think that's what differs. me from a lot of podcasters, you know, especially in this genre. It's not every story is the sexy prison shot caller story, but everyone is entitled to share their story, you know? Some of the stories you shared, man, like there was this girl that sat here not too long ago, and she was a young kid, it seemed like, but she had a really good story, you know, with a Bata, Bata, yeah, I think it was her, yeah, I was hearing it walking around. I hear a lot of them, man, and sometimes I get emotional, man, you know? Yeah.

Out of that I'm out, I cry like a baby all the fucking time. You know what I'm saying? So, yeah, man, they resonate for sure. Absolutely. I'm a strong believer in people like that. Anyone is able to come on and share their story. I don't give a fuck about the views, you know, because over time, that'll live there forever. So if it doesn't blow up the first, you know, a couple months, it'll be there and it'll grow forever.

And one day the platform is just going to blow, you know? Like, it'll get the right traction. For sure. But in the meantime, you just keep grinding and putting out the stories, you know? And give people the chance to and get them comfortable. I love it, bro. I love it. I appreciate you, man.

You have my number if you ever need anything. Appreciate you, my man. You know, safe travels back. That means a lot to me, man. Thank you.