Locked In with Ian Bick - Ex-Prison Gang Member Exposes The Reality Of Stabbings, Prison Politics & Life After Dropping Out | Christopher Curtis

Episode Date: September 30, 2024

Former California prison gang member Christopher Curtis takes you deep into the reality of life behind bars. In this episode, Curtis shares his firsthand experiences with stabbings, the politics that govern prison life, and his courageous decision to leave the gang. Discover the dangerous world of prison gangs, the challenges of navigating loyalty and survival, and what it takes to break free and start over. #PrisonStories #LifeBehindBars #PrisonGangs #TrueCrime #PrisonLife #GangLife #InsidePrison #CrimePodcast #PrisonReality #PrisonReform #GangMember #UntoldStories Hosted, Executive Produced & Edited By Ian Bick: https://www.instagram.com/ian_bick/?hl=en https://ianbick.com/ Connect with Christopher Curtis: Book: https://www.amazon.com/Orange-County-Dark-Christopher-Curtis/dp/1644565935 IG: https://www.instagram.com/octhedarkside8083/ Tiktok: https://www.tiktok.com/@octhedarkside8083 Presented by Tyson 2.0 & Wooooo Energy: https://tyson20.com/ https://woooooenergy.com/ Buy Merch: https://lockedinbrand.com Use code lockedin at checkout to get 20% off your order Timestamps: 00:00:00 Chris's Journey: From Prison to Redemption 00:04:52 The Impact of COVID-19 on Chino State Prison 00:09:46 Unsuccessful Prison Escape Attempt 00:14:54 Early Exposure 00:20:00 Life in Anaheim 00:25:12 The Relapse 00:30:24 The Impact of Crime on Personal Transformation 00:35:40 Unexpected Consequences of Anger 00:41:35 California: The Most Dangerous State Prisons 00:45:17 Navigating Prison Gangs 00:50:39 Life After Dropping Out from a Gang 00:55:25 Wes Watson and Alleged Life Coaching Scams 01:00:37 Prison Hierarchy and Treatment of Sex Offenders 01:10:55 Overcoming Life in Prison 01:16:27 Creating a Nonprofit to Reduce Reoffending Powered by: Just Media House : https://www.justmediahouse.com/ Creative direction, design, assets, support by FWRD: https://www.fwrd.co Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Chris, welcome to Lockton, man. We've been talking about doing this for months now. Yeah. You're on Johnny Mitchell's show. You're on Matt Cox's. I actually, I came across you because I do the clips for Johnny. And I did all your clips and posted them and clip them up. And it goes without saying an incredible story.

Yeah. Thank you. But, you know, shout out to Spotify for letting us use the studio right now. We're in Los Angeles, California. So it worked out good. So you didn't have to come all the way to East Coast. Yeah. You live in California, right?

Yeah, I live 30 minutes from here. Awesome. And you're the author of Orange County, the Dark Side, which we have here. So if you want to tell the people, like, you know, a little elevator pitch of what this book is about and why it's important to you. Okay, so I grew up in a pretty dysfunctional family. My dad started when I was 13, and eventually what happened was, you know, I ended up running the streets and ended up with a life sentence in prison. In that book right there, I first started writing it kind of to my daughter because I was never getting out of prison. At one point, I never thought I was getting out.

And I wanted my daughter to kind of know everything that I went through. You know, I really kept in contact with her a lot. But I wanted her to know from me, like my side of the story. And then I got out. You know, they changed some laws. And by the grace of God, I was let out of prison. and I showed it to a few people. They're like, hey, you should get this published.

This is a great story. This is a great comeback story. And I did just that, you know, and I rewrote the ending, you know, because now I'm an electrician and, you know, how I changed my life and how I'm, you know, doing good and, you know, grateful to be out. The book is a biography. It's all true. A portion of the money goes to at-risk youth.

You know, that's my biggest thing. I want to help kids. not make the same, you know, decisions I made and end up in trouble or get them out of trouble. And, you know, it's on Amazon. It's on Apple audiobooks, Barnes & Nobles. It's all over the place. It's a great story, you know, and it's on Amazon. You know what's interesting about that you said electrician.

You're not the first person I've interviewed from California that was affected by the three strike laws and got like a mandatory sentence. and then got out and became an electrician. They're very like felon friendly. That's a good career path. Well, the problem is that people don't want to do that. People don't want to work anymore. They want to, you know, they want to do office work. All the old timers, the electricians are fading out.

So like there's a big need for electrical workers, plumbers, construction workers, period. But where I got really involved in it, I went to a prison and they had vocations there. And I've always liked, you know, doing electricity and messing with electronics. So I took a vocation. I was a two-year vocation. And I got my card and completed a vocation for electrical. And so I knew if I ever did get out, you know, at that time I wasn't getting out of prison, but I still wanted to go to school.

You know, I got my A degree. but I just wanted to, I didn't want to sit in prison and do nothing, you know. And then next thing you know, I went to another prison. I got a bunch of trouble at that prison and went to another prison and went to High Desert. And when I got there, the counselor, you know, because they go through your file to check what's going on. He goes, hey, as soon as you come off sea status, I'm going to put you in maintenance. And I've heard stuff like that before, but he was serious. And they put me in the boiler room at High Desert working with all the age.

Vachvac and all the electronic watching machines there. And I was there for five years until I paroled. Now, were you a, I have to lose the headphones. I don't really like them after all. Were you on maintenance as a lifer in prison? So I'm curious about this. So I'm watching, have you watched a show Prison Break? I have.

I'm watching Prison Break right now. People are going to rip me because this came out years ago. We watched it. Everybody in prison watched it because it was on the mainstream TV. But something that I thought was weird was that the guy that was on death row was working, you know, maintenance openly. Did that happen? No, a death row inmate.

Well, I don't know about these other states, but in California, back then, death row, you were, you were sitting in San Quentin and you weren't getting but an hour a day program, maybe three times a week. Yeah, that was ridiculous. But now they let all the, they stopped. They took everybody off death row in California. Now they put them back on the main line and gave them life without. Oh, there's no death row anymore.

They, I don't can't, I can't speak fully on what's going on about it, but I'm pretty sure. that it's over. So they emptied it out. There's a lot of people in Chino, you know, the citizens around Chino State Prison that are complaining because they're there. But I'll say this. This is a funny story. So when COVID happened,

a lot of people are going to listen to this and they're going to be like, there's no way this happened, but it happened. So I was working in maintenance there. When COVID happened, just like out here in prison, they shut everything down. So there's eight engineers in the prison a day,

you know, two on each yard, like free staff, stationary engineers that come in the prison, they overlook it. We do most of the work, but they're there for the tools and all that. They send them all home but one.

So I didn't think I was going back to work. You know, it's a boiler room. This is some dangerous stuff that you're working with, you know? And the next day, you know, the sergeant calls me out of the cell and calls me to work. And I'm like, hey, what's up?

He goes, you got to be in here. here. I'm like, there's nobody in here. It doesn't matter. You don't know one knows how to run it. Because the steam plant heats the kettles up to cook the food for the whole prison. The thermal fluid plant heats up all the laundry to dry the laundry. And then all the HVAC on top of the building keeps all the coolers and keeps all the food cool. So they had me in there for like almost two months by myself. A lifer in prison. Make a, sure all this stuff was running so it didn't because it would shut down during the daytime and I knew how to get it going. Do you think the prisons are too, you know, dependent on inmates to run the

facilities like that? Well, it's the inmates run the prison when it comes to work, the kitchens, all that. They got free staff in there and they just make sure, you know, nobody steals nothing. Their job is just do all the paperwork. But the inmates do the work, except like, you know, administration and stuff like that. But this, the boiler room so if the boiler room shuts down you can't cook food so it cooks food for the whole prison

the one yard and all level in all 270 yards if that thing shuts down they can't cook food if that thing shuts down they can't dry the clothes or wash the clothes because of the hot water and you know the thermal fluid if the HVAC pumps on the roof

the compressors go down the food's going to go bad so that K&L maintenance has to be running Monday through Friday and on the weekends. Without it, the prison won't function. Wow. But the crazy part is, and I think about it all the time.

I think, like, is that really freaking happen? They left me in there. I mean, there was cameras and stuff in there. But they, and then if something happened, if I knew something was going bad or something happened or like one of the seals would come down and tell me, hey, the refrigerator's not working. And then I would go next door to laundry,

which was right next door, and tell the girl there, hey, you got a call. the engineer I'll call and have him come over here to bring me tools so I could fix whatever's going on so we can go on the roof or do whatever. But they had me in there like for like two months almost. Do you think you could have planned an escape while you're in there? Like hypothetically, dude, you can't like you can't to get out of a place like that, dude, it's just going to wreck your life. You're not going to make it. And then where are you going to go? you're going to get it's like in high desert state prison it's all you know it's all land there's

nothing out there yeah it's interesting watching prison break from an inmate's perspective because watching it like a lot of the stuff like the death row thing we talked about um but like the lack of security cameras and just common areas and just everything it was not realistic of what they pulled off so at old corkron i'll tell you a story so at old corkron i knew a guy who escaped he tried to You know, you can't get out of there. You can, but you're going to get caught. But what happened, this was on a level four yard. I was paroleing.

When he, when we were told, because my celly was the shot caller, when we were told about what was going on, it was like a month before I was getting out. So what he did, I don't know if you're familiar with the 270 cells in California, but at Old Corcoran, they got 270 cells, you know, and then they got the shoe in the back and stuff like that. But this was on a, this was on A yard at Old Corcoran. His name was Tats.

And what he did is he worked on the yard crew. So he got, first he got one of the horseshoe steaks, ripped it out of the ground, took it to the cell. And then he would go to like each building and say, hey, I need to borrow a broom and he wouldn't bring it back. And he brought all that stuff to his cell. And what happened, why it was able to happen is because the building cops got too relaxed with him and they didn't search his cell. and what he did was he pounded out the back window in the concrete with a rock in that horseshoe

you know the horseshoe pick pounded out at night it's pretty loud dude that's pretty loud like if you really I don't know if you're doing it but that'd make a lot of noise it's like if somebody's sharpening a knife you could hear it right but he did it and a couple days after I paroled one of my homeboys called me and said hey you know TAS got busted trying to escape and he got out and then see there was also a PIA laundry on the yard. So PIA laundry

cleans clothes from outside. So he was able to get personal clothing. He had all this stuff in the cell. So he got out of the cell. Him and his buddy got out of the cell. But, you know, they made a ladder out of the

brooms. But it was like this much too short and couldn't get over the electric fence. How much time did they give him after they caught him? You know, I seen him after, because I paroled, then I came back with life. About eight months later, I came back with life. And I ran into him at Kern Valley on a 180 yard and he was there and he didn't really talk about it like I can't it's really I mean he's doing life anyways but it's like three years or something like that

they add to your sentence or something but he was doing life anyway so it didn't matter but the problem with that now that he did that anytime somebody says something like hey this guy's going to or whatever or they could just say that so they were messing with them for years locking them up in the hole attempt to escape, you know, it just causes problems, man. Yeah. And he's not going to, I mean, I mean, he tried, but to me, I don't know. I just, unless you really have a plan to, like, really get out and then plus get out of the country, you're wasting your time because, you know.

I mean, in today's world, do you look at all the prisoner escapes that happened? They get caught very quickly and they need an inside person. I mean, look at the, what was it, Alabama or what the woman, the female officer, got that killer? out and then that she ended up dying and all of that crazy and then that's a thing too i mean and then if you escape i mean as i look at it now if you escape from somewhere and you start going on the run you're going to have to hurt you're going to possibly have to hurt somebody on the way you know what i'm saying it's just because something's going to happen and if you really if i if i'm getting out i'm not coming back you know what i'm saying so it's like that's just for me but i just you know

It's how far you're willing to go and take it. Yeah, exactly. So you told us briefly, like, when you were describing the book about your childhood, and I want to start there kind of with this interview. Give us, like, a rundown, an overall picture of what your childhood was like, you know, growing up, your family, siblings, everything like that. All right. So I grew up in the city of Orange in a nice neighborhood.

You know, we had everything our kid could want. You know, my dad was a baseball coach. He was a bricklayer, made really good money, owned his own business. And then this was, you know, early 80s. And then, you know, everything started to, you know, everything started to go bad. You know, they lost the house. You know, exactly how that happened, I don't know, I'm pretty sure it's because of the drugs. You know, my dad started using cocaine.

At this time, I didn't know what was going on. I was too young. But, you know, we ended up moving to another house just right down the street. you know we changed schools and uh everything you know i didn't like we used to get a lot of good clothes and stuff like all that stuff was stopping we weren't getting you know we didn't have money like we used to and uh my parents were you know fighting a lot um i used to race bikes a lot when i was a kid and my dad would come home i don't have time you know and it just started you know it just started falling apart i didn't understand it at the time but uh you know he's

he had started using cocaine and it was taken over his life you know just like anybody that uses drugs um i remember one time uh like i said we just moved into this house and i met some kids that lived down the street we became friends and i was spending a night at their house you know and hanging out with them and then uh one day after school they were you know waiting for me and they were calling me a drug addict hey you're a drug addict you know you do cocaine and i'm like you know as a kid you're like what i don't have to drugs you know And the funny thing is, is that their parents knew friends of my parents, and they told them what was going on.

So now all these kids in the school, I wasn't allowed to hang around with. None of the kids' parents wanted me around their kids because of that. And being a young kid, you know, you don't understand that, you know. And at that point, I started hanging around people that were troublemakers. Um, my parents split up. About that time, too, my parents split up. My dad moved again, but down the street in another house that was run down. And then my mom moved in with, with our hands.

So we wouldn't live with my dad. We didn't move in right away, but we ended up living with my dad a couple months later. And, uh, there was a, he had a roommate that was Italian. And, uh, his, my uncle lived there. And then he had a new girlfriend. friend with her kid. And we did, you know, there was people coming and going out of the house. We didn't really know what was going on. But like a couple months later on New Year's Eve night, you know, me and my buddy were sitting at the table listening to records on the record player.

And my dad comes out and he has a little white violin in his hand. And he sits down at the table, gets a mirror out, pours, you know, some white substance on the mirror and starts chopping it up and made three lines. And the first thing I thought of, but what these kids were saying, you know, like, wait a minute, you know. And my dad did a line. Then he handed it to me, go ahead, try it. And I did it. And then my friend did it.

And I was instantly high. I'll never forget it. And I thought it was the greatest thing in the world. Wow. Do you ever think about how you're, like, when you were in prison years later, did you ever think about that moment and say, like, if that never happened, I wouldn't be here right now? I do. I think about, I thought about that a lot.

you did time too so you understand when you're in prison you think a lot about the what ifs you know how this could have happened or how this could have went differently but yeah it changed my life man immediately

you know we were just doing cocaine all the time I'd get lines for doing the dishes I'd get lines for doing good in school which wasn't often but for washing the trucks for my allowance you know for Christmas we got like, you know, a half gram of Coke, a $50 bill, and a carton of cigarettes.

And we thought it was the greatest thing in the world, you know, being a kid, you don't understand. You're like, oh, my dad's the greatest dad in the world, you know. But that faded away fast because with drugs comes a bunch of drama. You know, we could see what was going on and we were figuring it out. My dad's girlfriend, she was a nightmare. I remember, you know, just going to get milk or something. or going to get food out of the refrigerator. You know, she'd be sitting at the kitchen table and she'd be all drunk or whatever.

And I just want to get something to eat. You know, I get mad dog just going, you know, get out of the fridge or just whatever, you know. And, yeah, it's a crazy, it was a crazy environment. Did you ever find out what was a trigger for your dad? Like, because he had a good life. Everything was good. And then all of a sudden it wasn't. So what did, did you ever find out about that?

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mess with drugs in school or nothing, you know? One of his friends got him started on it. It was in the 80s and everybody was doing Coke in the 80s. You know, not everybody, but a lot of people were. It's like the 90s for meth for people, you know. It's the same thing. Everybody was doing it.

My dad's roommate, you know, had bags and bags of cocaine, bags and bags of weed. You know, I'd come out for school sometimes and he would fall asleep out in the front because he just cooked cocaine. and boil cocaine and make rock out of it, you know, in the kitchen. And he'd be passed out in a chair and he would leave his door open.

And there would just be bags, cocaine, bags of money. I'd go in there, get a couple spoonfuls, grab a little bit of money and take off to school, you know. But, yeah, that, and from there, you know, it just, you just went bad. Do you have a lot of friends? Were you popular or were you bullied? No, I wasn't bullied. I was actually the bully. Um, me and my friends, I had four friends that I hang around with.

And we had long hair, you know, in Villa Park, we went to school in Villa Park. You had long hair? I grew up with long hair, yeah. Yeah, I grew up with long hair. Until about, I don't know, it was like 18, 17 or 18. But we, it was just four of us. But we went to school in Villa Park, Sarah Villa Junior High School, which is a really nice area. So the kids there were all wealthy.

They dressed differently. We dressed with black T-shirts, like Iron Maiden T-shirts. long here and there was only like four or five of us and that was it and we were always in trouble you know we were always getting in trouble we were smoking all the time and they knew we were doing drugs and uh so you know we were we were bullies you know i know i was not so much the other kids but i i think i was acting out as a kid and plus i was such a small kid i was like 4-11 so i was always trying to fight the older kids and uh i was just yeah i was terrible when you were in prison did you ever reflect back on the people you bullied?

I did, you know. And actually, it happened to me later in life when I moved to Anaheim. I wasn't getting bullied, but I was new to the area. And I wasn't, I was a drug addict. When I moved to Anaheim, I was just a drug addict, you know. And then I moved to Anaheim and I started running around with gangs. And that's a whole different environment. Those people were serious.

And then so I was kind of like an outsider. So I can't say that I was bullied so much, but I was taking advantage of. And I actually got beat up a few times from my homeboys, you know, telling me, hey, you let these guys do that again. We're going to keep beating you up. And what eventually happened was I just became like them. And I just, like, I could pretty much just remember that one day I was just like, okay. Because if you're not going to be tough on the street, you're not going to have nothing. And once I learned that, it was easy for me.

Being tough is not that hard. You know, being, like I hate to say it. Like, you know, I've shot at several people. I've shot, I got in trouble for shooting a couple people. And it was easy. You know, if somebody's trying to, somebody who's done it, if somebody's trying to get you to protect yourself, it's really not that hard.

Now, these, the people that you've shot, Are these people that are in the life with you? Yeah. So because a lot of people, you know, when they hear about shootings and this and that, I think one component that's missing from the stories that this person was equally as involved and culpable in that. Yeah. So, yeah, that's. And the thing is, is that about that, and for a long time I was mad in prison about that.

Because the reason why is because these guys know I've shot at their friends in the past. like three of them, you know, and I wasn't shooting at them for fun. I mean, it was over some, you know, some issues that happened. And then what ended up happening was me and my buddy were on the phone call. He was in prison, and I was out on the streets talking to him on the phone, and we were talking about how one of their friends got killed in the high-speed chase when he was running from the cops, and we laughed about it. Well, this girl heard it, and she,

told all her friends. So now all these guys are calling my friend Crystal telling her, hey, we're going to get Chris, you know. And Crystal told him, well, you know, if you do, he's pretty smart, you're probably going to get shot, you know. And sure enough, like a couple months later, I ran into these guys. There was like seven of them. And, uh, they know I carry a gun, but, you know,

why would they would, somebody would, I mean, if I knew somebody would carry a gun, I'm not going to go after them. without a gun. You know what I mean? Because it's a losing battle. And I ended up shooting a couple of them. You know? And went to prison for it.

Did you graduate high school or you never finished? I dropped down like eighth grade. And by what year were you in prison? How old were you? 24. 24. Yeah. So your like spree kind of started around like 13, 12, 13 or a little older?

Well, I didn't really start running the streets until I was like really, I mean, seriously running the streets until I was like 18, 19 years old. Okay. In Anaheim. And between those five years leading up to the life in prison. It was all havoc. And it was just arrest after arrest. Why don't you explain to the audience what the three strikes law is? Because most of the time you hear life in prison, oh, that person killed someone that got life.

But in your scenario, yours wasn't like this big organized crime, you know, ring. This was a buildup of acts that landed you there. So the California three strike law is what it states is that if you have three violent felonies, you get 25. to life. It was supposed to be three violent felonies. They actually, you know, altered the law during that time. And, you know, if you got one violent felony and two felonies, they were striking you out. So the law got misconstrued. And the court, you know, the DAs were able to manipulate it to give everybody life. So a lot of people got life in prison for pizza, a half gram of meth. I can go on and on, you know.

In my case, I went to jail, I would say, 15 to 20 times for cash and stolen checks or stolen cars, drugs, knives. You know, never got caught with any guns. I did one time, but I beat it because the hotel room, I got caught with a shotgun, but the hotel room wasn't in my name. And nobody said nothing. So, you know, I was able, they had to release me. but why I got struck out was because of the shooting you know I shot two people um and I got two violent strikes for that so I signed a deal for six years for 85 percent because it was aggravated assault with a firearm um I did six years I lost on my good time I went pretty much right to a

level four prison and paroled from a level four prison and got out with two strikes you know I under the intention that I was not going to get in trouble no more. I wasn't using when I got out. And I had every intention not to use drugs again, but that didn't happen. I started using drugs and selling drugs again. And then eight months later, I got busted again. And I got 28 to life. What happened after cutting out that your mindset shifted?

I mean, you left prison in that mindset of I'm going to do good. I'm going to get my life together. And then you went back to using. What was the trigger? Okay, so when I got out, I got a good job working for Miller Pipeline in the union. I wasn't using. And I didn't plan on using it. I told myself I'll never use drugs because I know if I get in trouble for anything at that time, you're getting life in prison.

So I'm not doing that. But, you know, not back in when I paroled, there was no groups. there was no victim's impact there was no rehabilitation groups to help you understand you know about yourself or whatever so i'm thinking i'm going to be okay i'm thinking i can go hang out with my old friends i'm thinking i could uh i could do all this stuff and just not use and be okay but what happens you know people places and things you know you start hanging around your old friends that are using you're going to end up using too and uh i remember my girlfriend brought drugs home one day

she brought meth home I moved in with this girl I met this girl moved in with her you know and she brought drugs home and she's like come on you said I said no I can't you know I can't you don't understand you know she's kind of a square so she just doesn't get it but but then she was buying it and I'm like

I'm not going to pay for this stuff so I started selling it I wasn't even using it I was selling it for like two months before I started using it and then the next thing you know I'm selling like a lot I'm working and selling drugs. And then one day I used it. And then that was it.

I never went back, got a gun, and I was off and running. Do you think that the three strikes law was an effective thing, like an effective deterrence in general? I know like you eventually strayed from it, but you had mentioned that you got out and you were like, I know I have two strikes. I can't afford a third one.

I don't think it is. For some people, It was. I've known people who got two strikes who said, yeah, that's it. I'm not messing around no more. And they didn't. But for other people that can't control drugs or can't control themselves, it wasn't because they struck out a lot of people. And I can save this for myself. It saved my life. You know, I had to do a lot of time. I get that. But prison saved my life because, you know, either I was going to really hurt somebody or in the end I was going to get hurt. And it saved me. It saved me. It saved me. It took me a long time in prison to change, but I did. And I was able to go through a lot of groups to understand addiction or the lifestyle of addiction.

And I was able to change. What do you think was the biggest takeaway that you learned about that lifestyle? What did you learn about yourself? I learned that I was more addicted to the lifestyle. than I was the drugs, I think, to committing the crimes, to running around with the gun. That was more addicting than anything. It was fun.

It wasn't always fun, but, you know, it was exciting. And once you get caught up in that lifestyle of addiction, it just becomes easier and easier. You know, you start off doing low crimes, and then you just start doing more and more. And then the next thing you know, you're shooting at people. I'm not saying that happens to everybody. because you got people just run around the streets and do drugs and small crimes,

and they go in and out of prison their whole lives. You know, like I've seen guys in and out ten times while I was in there for 20 years. Same guy. And then you got other people that just take it to the extremes, you know, and they do crazy shit, and they get busted, and they do life. Those people that got life from that third strike are a lot of them addicts? Yeah, they all are. Yeah, they're all are.

Because they're, you know, they're career criminals. The three-strike law is pretty much, you know, a career criminal. You just keep getting in trouble and trouble and trouble. And you get more serious crimes and then they strike you out. Yeah. I mean, I think like that it's a lot of those cases were addiction issues. Yeah. That had they been provided some actual help for treatment, overcoming their addiction,

they might not have ended up. Yeah. But another thing, too, that is you have to want to change. You have to want to change. You have to have a good support network. It took me a long time. You know, it took me a lot to understand. That lifestyle, gangs and all that stuff, it's, it's pointless. The end result is prison. And if you're really about it, you're going to get recode and, you know, you're going to, you know, be just locked up, you know, And in the end, you can't get away with shooting people all the time.

You're going to get caught. You can't get away with anything, especially nowadays. But you can't get away. You can't keep doing crime and get away with it. What I learned about myself is that it came to a point where I just didn't want to be that person anymore. And I just beg God to change me, you know. and I was able to learn a lot about myself. I was able to learn that, you know,

not only was I hurting the people that I shot. I was hurting their families. I was hurting the first responders. I was creating victims everywhere. I was selling drugs to people, and who knows what they were doing with these drugs, what they were doing to kids or, you know, I don't know what these people are doing with these drugs.

So being a drug dealer, you don't know what's going on. You're just creating victim after victim after victim. And I'm going to spend the rest of my life trying to make amends for that. You know, I heard a lot of people. And I'm lucky to be out, you know, and I'm very grateful for a second chance at life. But, you know, like the three strike law, okay, I had to do a lot of time. But if I didn't do that time, if I didn't go through all that stuff that I went through, I would have probably never changed, you know, because it just made me sick of everything.

I've seen so much hypocritical stuff in prison. You've been there, so you understand what I'm talking about. It doesn't make no sense. In the end, it's stupid. Yeah, the rules. The politics is stupid. You got one guy getting killed over buying drugs from a black guy, and then you've got the same guys that are doing it

are getting drugs from the black guy on the side. Nobody knows. You know, and I could just go on and on. But in the end, in the end, they don't really care about you. If something comes up and you mess up, they're going to try to kill you. Or they are going to kill you. For what?

You know, I didn't want to live like that. Yeah, no one's your friend in there. Dude, you know, even on the streets, I could count on my hand the real friends. I made a lot of friends that are close to this day that I used to run in streets with. And I'm close to them. But for the most part, you can't trust nobody. Beyond that, you really can't. you know and uh i learned that the hard way now you're 24 years old you get life in prison no i i didn't

get i didn't get life until it was 30 oh you so you're 30 okay you got your six year bid when you're 24 yeah so now you're 30 with life in prison were you already a gang affiliated your first sentence yeah and what was that process like well i i just ran around with crazy white boys you know we were crazy white boys and uh i just became part of it and that was in prison or no that was in prison or no That was on the streets. That was on the streets. Yeah. Okay.

And those are what they referred to as a Pickerwoods? No, not Peckorwoods. I don't know why, you know, the Kinek said that. You know what I mean? But he has his own little, you know, whatever he wants to say. So what is crazy white boys? We're just crazy white boys, you know? We were just like you got P&I, you have, you know, all these other gangs.

Yeah. We weren't series like them, you know. We were just a group of guys. But it's not like a race-based gang. Is it just like? I mean, you're white, you're old race-based. If you're a white boy, it's a racial gang. You know, I'm not saying that you're, you know, going out there and, you know, being totally racial about it.

But in the end, you know, you have these gangs that are white supremacist gangs. They're talking to other races, you know. I know that it's just a label that's put on it. You know, I could say that. You know, I'll tell you a story. So one time, this is before I went to prison. I went to this house to drop off some dope for my buddy because we were selling drugs.

She was like, hey, go by this house and drop off some dope. So I go there in a black girl and I'm supposed to the door. I'm like, hey, I got the wrong place. And then the dude in the back's like, no, no, Chris, come in. And I go in there and use this white dude. And I pull him to the side and I say, look, because I don't care. You know what I mean? I said, hey, don't call us anymore.

Because if they find out, you know, your girl's black, they're going to have a. problem with it. So like a week later, I go to a hotel room to drop some dope off and I get a gun in my back. And they're talking shit. These people are talking shit, right? They're saying stupid shit. I only had like a 16th of dope on me. You know, they didn't get really nothing from me. They got my gun, which was, you know, no big deal. So then I called my buddy and I'm like, hey, get my backpack, come pick me up. So now I'm mad. So now this is what, you know, you rob me. So now we're going to have a problem. So he comes and picks me up and we go over there. And the black girl was

you know, like bragging because he was a model how she bought this brand new car. She don't have insurance for it. You know, it's just sitting outside. So in my mind, I'm like, all right, I just burnt the car down. You burnt that car. So I went over there and the, it's not, now I think about it's funny, but it's not. So we go over there and it's in a parking structure, like a carport. You know, you got apartments above it. So I just went over there. marble at the window because it shatters it and shot a flare gun off in the back of it and split you know

and it's just fried it and then they're calling like hey tell Chris we're sorry or whatever you know but shit happens dude and that was just like a regular what do you guys do those kinds of you know I guess violent acts often or is that I mean it wasn't that wasn't a vibe that was just like one of those things like it came

to the point in my life where I was gonna win I might not win right there but I'm gonna win in the end and that's how I that's how I Like I would never, so I would, this is, I would never go into a situation where I knew I couldn't win. And if I couldn't win, I would wait till later till I could. That was my mindset. And, you know, and it, yeah, there was a lot of crazy shit like that that happened.

So that mindset, here's, here's the question. How often did that mindset get you in trouble in your early years in prison? Because that's a dangerous mindset. When you go to prison, in prison is different. It's not like that. you can't control the situation. Once you go to prison, you can't, you're in situations you have no control over. It's different.

I'm talking on the streets. I'm talking on the streets where I can control the situation. And that's why Crystal pretty much said, you know, Chris is pretty smart. Like, you know, like, I'm not going to go anywhere or do anything where I know I can't win or I don't trust everybody there. That was just me. I'm a tripper when it comes to like that. But there was a few situations, you know, where stuff like that happened. between, you know,

1995 or no, 1990 and 1995, it was pretty crazy. When I went to prison, though, you know, it's different. You're sober, you know, and you just kind of, you can't hide in prison. There's nothing you could do about it. You have to go to yard. You have to do what they tell you to do. And if you don't, you're in trouble. So now you're 30.

You got life in prison. what are like those first feelings, emotions that like first, you know, everyone talks about the first night in prison. Are you talking about when I got life? Yeah, when you got that life. What is that like? I remember when I first got in trouble, they called me down to the loop. In Orange County, they got the loop where they bring everybody in. They called the loop.

And they called me down to a room down there. And, you know, the investigators were there. They're like, hey, we found your gun. You know, they wanted to talk It's pretty much what it was They wanted me to talk And I just told them, I go I'm through, I'm out of here

You know, I knew it was over As soon as I got busted There's no way Because I got caught with so much stuff I already had two strikes For shooting two people At first it was kind of like Yeah, okay

But you know, I remember getting You know, pretty depressed about it I let my family down You know, I got sober You know, I cleaned up a little bit You know Because there's no drugs in there there is but just not that much and I remember thinking you know you know that's it it's over you know

my daughter's gonna grow up without me she already grew up six years without me um it's a terrible feeling because uh you know for somebody because it's essentially you just lost your life you know and you're gonna die in prison and it sucks dude thinking that you know but you also adapt you know once you get to prison, you're out running around, you're doing your thing, you're working out, and you get used to it. You know, you're able to adapt to it. And if not, you're going to be miserable. But the first couple years, like, you know, you just kind of go through the days and then you just, you know, you come to terms with it. You know, about seven, eight years after I got busted, I started doing a lot of groups. Not a lot, but I started doing groups. I just,

I just trying to better myself, but it still took a long time for it actually to really happen. But, you know, it saved me. Do you think you navigate prison differently when you have a life sentence versus like when you had that six-year sentence? Is the mindset different at all? Well, yeah, because when you, how do I say that? When you just get like six years or three years, you're just waiting for that day to get out. you know, you're just doing what you can to get by. You know your time is coming.

As long as you don't take a life, you're pretty much going to get out, or unless you get struck out, I mean, because that was going on in there. But when you get life, that's your house, that's your home. And you try to make it as comfortable as possible. A lot of people go off the handles and they just start, you know, stabbing everybody they can and trying to make a name for themselves or, you know, whatever they, try to do um i just i got a little bit of trouble but not a lot because for me i i didn't see myself going to prison and getting in more trouble i just didn't see the point in that for what i'm not getting

paid for it i'm not making money from it you know i don't need to make a name for myself um i know what i know what i'm capable of but i don't need to prove that to anybody and i just you just go the days. I just worked out all the time, started going to school, and, you know, luckily they changed some laws. Something I see a lot about, like, comments from listeners and viewers on YouTube specifically is everyone compares California prison to East Coast prison. So when they see like the East Coast guys, which are predominantly a lot of my interviews, they say like it's kind of like weak on the East Coast, not a lot of action. Is there a lot of action in the country? Is there a lot of action California?

California prison is the most dangerous prison in the United States. When it comes to the state, I don't know about federal. That's different. I'm talking about state prisons. It's crazy. And it became, I remember back in the day, you know, somebody would stab somebody. It would be like one guy stabbing somebody, sometimes too. But then it became like a sport, really, to where, you know, they'd have the Odinus Circle,

which is a little gate, chain leak gate, a little bit bigger than this room right here. and they would set it up where, you know, they would do their little, you know, pray to Odin, do their little thing. And then afterwards they would, you know, take a dude out. You know, one guy would hold him down and the other two guys would just stab him to death, you know. And it became, you know, it became a lot of that on those yards. And then, you know, it just got worse and worse. And then phones came in, you know, so now everybody. But he's able to look up everybody.

And, you know, and people are just getting killed. Look at him. Eating whatever he wants. Never gaining a pound. While I'm stuck with the boring special and can't lose an ounce. How's your lunch, man? Amazing. Yours?

So good. Oh, I'm so happy for you. Cool, buddy. Weight loss isn't fair, but Mochi Health is. The affordable GLP1 source that can fix your frustration with food. So same time next week? No. Definitely.

And your friends. Learn more at join mochi.com. Mochi members have access to licensed physicians and nutritionists. Results may vary. We were. Yeah, you were kind of in that time period where you were there without phones and then you were there with phones. I was in CDC when it was CDC before it came to CDCR, you know, back in the 90s. I seen that all. I've seen all that.

And it just got worse over the years. You know, I think a lot of it had to do with, you know, they took the air. Aryan Brotherhood off the main line a long time ago. And a lot of these kids and a lot of these, you know, gangs like NLR started running the prisons, you know, the main lines. But from the back, the Aryan Brotherhood was running the prison. So, you know, the Aryan Brotherhood, I could say this about the Aryan Brotherhood. They made sure that everything ran smoothly for the most part. I'm not saying all of them, but it was a lot more organized when they were on the line back in the day.

To when they took them off the line, there was a lot of chaos. Because you had so many different factions and so many different people running these yards. And if you don't got the right person running the yard, there's just going to be problems. Because if this guy's using drugs, you're getting in dead or doing whatever he's doing, or doing stuff for personal reasons instead of dealing with stuff for reasons that are legit, it's just going to cause problems.

And I'd just seen over the years that all that changed. You know, now they brought them back. They're in Brotherhood, you know, Mexican Moffa, they put them back on the main line because they won their little lawsuit. You know, did you hear about that? I didn't.

So they had them all locked up in like Pelican Bay and Corcoran shoe indeterminate shoes. If you were validated, Aryan Brotherhood or NLR or Mexican Mafia, you got validated and you were indeterminally putting the shoe and they weren't letting you out. And some of them guys were back there for like 30 years. And just recently, I want to say like 2021 or 2020, they won a lawsuit where they can't do that. So they brought all those guys back and put them on the main line.

So now you have, you know, the Aryan Brotherhood, they're all back on the yards now. but it's just you know prison all that's for me all that stuff is just it's stupid i've interviewed a mexican mafia a former one and how he got recruited and after hearing his story i think they're more dangerous one of the most dangerous prison gangs if not the most i think they're more dangerous than the brotherhood but maybe not as organized i do know i think that the northerners so so so the serrated you know the mexican the southern mexican I think they all, they all are. You know, for me, I think the white boys, they're just known for just brutal murders.

Like some of the most brutalest murders you're going to see in prison are from the white boys. They make good knives. You know, and then the northerners too. The northern Mexicans, they're like the military. The way they run, the way they run their faction is like a military. You know, the southerners too, but the northern Mexicans don't really have a lot on the guards. So they have to be on guard all the time. You know, they, they mentally train. They educate themselves. I see these guys, I speak to some of these guys sometimes, but I've met a lot

of them. I've actually became really good friends with some in prison, you know, in the end, later. And they're smart, they're smart, dude. They're well educated. They can speak well, they can write well. You know, if they get in trouble, they got to write an essay. You know, wide, you know, like, you know, depth, yeah, they're pretty smart. Now, is there a way to respectfully decline joining a gang? Is that possible? Yeah.

But is there ramifications once you decline? Okay, so. Yeah. So say you're like me and I go on to the yard. Yeah. Right? And I get approached. And I say no in a respectful manner.

There's no ramifications to that? No, it's not like that. Now, I could say like, so. I've talked to a couple people, and I've heard something like this, like back in the shoe, you know, the Aaron Brotherhood will say, hey, are you interested or whatever? And if they say no, well, then they're kind of like, you know, put on, I don't know how to say that right.

They're just kind of put off. But then when something happens, if you don't do anything for them, then you're in trouble. You know what I'm saying? So, but a lot of those guys that go back to the shoe, that's what their goal is. Their goal is to become, you know, the white boys, be become, everybody, a lot of people want to become that. They want to move to the next level.

But I don't think that if you say no, that you'll be in trouble, no. How are you able to avoid that? I just didn't really want it. I was more concerned about myself. You know, I've seen other people and them having to answer to other people, and I didn't want to do that. I wanted to pretty much just answer to myself. I mean, I had to follow rules like everybody else, but I didn't want to get involved to where, you know, you go to prison and then you're just, you have to do all this different stuff. Or even on the streets, you got to answer

to somebody. I just didn't, I just always wanted to answer to myself. So you were able to navigate in that manner with no ramifications, nothing, no issues. Yeah. I think that's like a very big misconception that people hear and I'm sure you've seen or heard about it and if you watch prison content there is that mindset that you could not do what you've done in a Mac security prison.

Okay so here's the thing too. You listen to like Wes Watson. You've seen his? Yeah. Yeah, I'm curious what your thoughts are on West Watson too. I can say that he's pretty wealthy, you know. I'll say that I've never heard of him. I don't think that he

He was at the prisons he said he was, not acting like that. He was in California. He was in California, yeah. But he said he did all this time and all these places. There's no way you're going to be acting like that. Okay, so I've done a lot of time in prison. I've been at a lot of prisons. I've been on high desert, Salinas Valley,

Soledad, Centinella, Old Corcoran, Chino, and that's pretty much North Kern State Prison. I've been to a lot of prisons. He's, all these stories that he's talking about, that he's, there's, I mean, I can't even make up that many stories. Do you know what I'm saying? It's, it's, it's bullshit. You know?

I think a lot of those stories that you see these high profile guys are textbook stories. Like the whole, you got to show good paperwork. You got to do this. Well, you got to. That's true. Yeah, but that's textbook, though. That's textbook prison. I get that.

But there's a lot of things too where, you know, every yard's different. Okay, all the 180 yards, I don't care if they're S and Y or mainline, they're crazy yards. The S and Y yards are actually worse than the mainlines. But every yard's different. Every yard ran different. They're soft yards. There's tough yards. But like the level 1s, twos and threes, they're really not.

I mean, people are getting hurt on the level 3 yards. But the level 2 yards, they're really not. Level 1, it's really not even prison. But, you know, I went S&Y. and I'm not ashamed to say it. I dropped out, I went S&Y. And I'll say this about S&Y prisons. The problem, when I dropped out, I was relieved.

I was like, I'm glad this is over with. And then when I got to the S&Y side, I was like, what the hell is going on here? Because it was worse. Now dropping out, you mean dropping out from a gang to the people that aren't? Yeah, I went S&Y. I locked up. I got out of there.

I just was done. I didn't want to be involved in anymore. I just was going through that part of my life. I just, you know, and I was relieved and it was over. But then when I got to S&Y, it was worse. You're thinking you're going to go, okay, it's going to, it's not. And the reason being is because there's no rules. So when you're on the main line, you have, you know what to watch out for.

You know if this race tries something they're going to be dealt with. You know, you know, so you just have their structure. On the SMY yard, it's like the California Youth Authority. You don't have to ask permission to do nothing. If you want to go stab that guy, you could do it. If you want to do whatever you want to do, you could do it. So you have a bunch of people over there. They're pretty crazy people.

Just because you go S&Y doesn't mean you're a chump. You know, people are over there for whatever reasons. But there's no rules now. So now these people were kept under control because of, you know, politics. Now there is no politics. you could do whatever you want. If you want to go kill that guy, you could do it. Doesn't matter if he's white.

Doesn't matter his ethnicity. If you want to deal with it, you could deal with it. So now you have to watch out for everybody. And it was pretty much a snake pit. And I've seen a lot of crazy shit on the S&Y side. What's the process for dropping out of a gang? Like once you have it in your mind that I'm going to leave this gang, do you have to talk to someone or are you going right to the...

When it first started, it was more of like a like a year. debriefing process. When I did it, I just gave him my knife. Who do you give the knife? I just locked up and told them where my knife was at. Oh, so I was at St.is Valley, yeah, because I used to carry around a knife in the dayroom because there was only like 10 white boys there and they, you know, they weren't really about nothing. But every time I was a porter, so in the morning I would go out and, you know, I had my knife in a sock and I would get it from under the sink on the second tier and I'd go back to my cell, take it out, and I'd tie it a little string on my waistband. I carried around

dayroom all day. you know because there's only 10 white building there are 10 white boys in the building and then some stuff happened with uh i wanted to stab this black guy and the other white boys on the yard found out and they called me out the yard and they told me yeah you can't do that i'm like like that's unheard of what do you mean i can't do that it come to find out you know the the uh the white boys from c and d yard were killing all the white boys coming off of b yard because there was a riot and they didn't deal with it. They were supposed to get off again and they didn't do it.

You know, so they're like, if you stab this black guy, there's going to be a big war, we're going to go to the hole, and they want to kill us all back there. And I'm just like, come to find out the whole yard was in the hat because of that. Do you understand that? Yeah. Yeah. Now, did you have a reason to stab this guy?

I did. It wasn't based on race. No, it wasn't based. Not at all. What happened was I was in the day room and I was sweeping. And this old man, this. black guy wanted this older white dude to run something for him. And he said, no, I'm not doing it, you know?

So this black guy was yelling at the door, like, you fucking, piece of shit, white dude, or whatever. And I'm like, oh, yeah, you know, yeah, that can't, that can't happen. So I told a couple guys in the building when they come off lockdown, I'm going to stab this dude. They ran and told the other guys in the other building, which I would have had to get permission anyways. You know what I'm saying? But they went to the other building, the shock caller, You know, they called me out to the yard, like six or seven white boys. Like, hey, you can't do that.

You can't do that. And then I come to find out the white boy, the shot color for the yard sold our table, the white boys table to the Paisas for a grandma dope. So I'm finding out all this stuff. And at that point in my time in prison, I'm like, yeah. And then the S&Y, everybody was going S&Y. Like, you know, everybody was just going S&Y. Now when you drop out, can you rejoin?

No. No, that's it. Have you seen anyone rejoined once they dropped out? Okay, so I think I don't want to, I'm not totally positive, but from what I understand, the Northerners maybe could pay their way back in. I don't know if it's true or not. I know I've heard about that on the S&Y side, but I don't know if it's true, you know. Yeah. Yeah.

Now, going back to West Watson for a second, because I wanted to talk about the gang dropout. Yeah. That's really interesting. And we haven't talked about this before on the show. But to Wes Watson, I've never met the guy, never interviewed him. I would have him on the show if he ever wanted to come on. But my only issue with him is I feel like individuals are paying him way too much money and getting kind of scammed. He's exactly what's happening.

Like people are paying $10 or $15,000 for life coaching. He's renting a lot of the stuff that he has, the houses, this and that, which he might be a great business guy. There's no shade against that. He tried to do it to me, man. Yeah, but the individuals that talk to him, and he bullies them into giving them the money. He tried to do it to me. I tried to contact him because I was thinking, okay, maybe this guy wants to help at-risk youth. So I contacted him, and immediately he got back at me.

What did he say? $15.000. Send me $3,000 and I'll get you hook you up with my life coaches and this and that. I'm like, I can't afford that right now. He's like, well, put it on a credit card. I'm like, whoa, like, I just want to know if you want to help people or not. Yeah. You know, and another thing I'll say, too, about, you know, about S&Y yards, too, is once you go S&Y, you don't have your friends anymore.

You don't have the homeboys that protected you. So you pretty, once you go S&Y, you just have yourself. So that's when you're really going to find out how tough a person is a lot of the time. So do you think it's more dangerous? Oh, it's way more dangerous. It's way more dangerous. Are more like stabbings and stuff getting carried out? Dude, there's a lot of that going on.

And then they started a bunch of gangs, too. There's some serious gangs on that side now. On the dropout year, they start gangs? They got the GBGs, which is the gay boy gangsters. Gay boy? You never heard about that? No. Wait, I've heard of G.

That's separate from GBs. No, it's GBGs, gay boy gangsters. We're talking California here. Okay. You got the GBGs. You got the FTBs now, I heard. You have the BBC's. You have the Northern Riders, the new flowers.

And there's probably a couple other I can't even name off the bat. But a lot of sexual endoendoes with the titles. Dude. So, yeah. But the FTB, that one is pretty serious from what I understand. So I met a few of them. But now, like, it's to the point to where this is on the S&Y side that you can't get into this gang without stabbing somebody. And this is on the S&Y yard.

And what they are is like, you know, fuck the Aryan Brotherhood, FTB. You know, fuck the brand. Which that actually started, that actually started years ago on the mainline. Some NLR guys started, you know, FTB. And they all got put in the hat for it. You know, I actually know a few of them. But they started the same thing on the S&Y side. And they're pretty serious, man.

They're still deal. It's like people will say, oh, this guy's a child molester. He's going to, he's still going to be dealt with over there. Not on the like one, twos and three yards as much, but on that level four yards, I've seen a lot of crazy shit there. So when you're getting initiated by doing a stabbing, are they sending you off on someone random, just like an innocent bystandard? Okay, so no. So this is, now, this, I wasn't there, but I heard the story. So I'm speaking on a story that I just heard about.

I just want to make that, I'm not West Watson where I'm going to start, you know, talking all that. I've seen all this or did all this. is a story that I heard about. So one guy, this is at Kern Valley State Prison, and this is an FTB guy, and he wanted to be FTP. They get it over their eyes, something like that anyways. But some guy came in, and he had no paperwork, because they're still checking your paperwork on the S&Y side.

They think it's since you're going over there, there's a bunch of child messrs running around. No, there's not. You know, so the guy didn't have his paperwork. but a correctional officer supposedly allegedly you know said hey

you know this guy's this guy's a weirdo which means he's a sex offender and uh this guy would never come out of a cell or nothing somehow they looted him out of a cell and uh you know the guy just fucked him off right there

and then the cops see it and they just walk away because you got you got four pods and a 180 yard you got four pods I can't remember how many cells then you got the tower so the towers walk and you know checking each pod and he just seen it walked away but yes this happens

so during your time were sex offenders allowed to just walk the yard at all never so why would they even put them on the yard to begin with uh you know I don't I think I couldn't tell you dude and another thing too that's crazy

is it just they should have did I mean you think they would but they don't you know they it's just the way it is but it would alleviate a lot of problems for everybody but you know they don't do that

yeah because like in the feds the sex offenders and the lows and even some mediums walk the yard freely it's normal just just on all the yards yeah maybe not in the penitentiaries I know there are certain like penitentiary the max securities and the feds, specifically for sex offenders.

Yeah. But most of the time they're on the lower level SMY yards, they do, but they're, they're being beat up. They're being, uh, they're sometimes they're getting stabbed, you know, like the threes. Once the level, the ones in the two so, it's, it's not like that, you know, they're not being treated well. But I laugh at like a lot of these mainline prisons in these other states. I don't laugh. I just trip on it when I hear them talk about how they run their prisons and they think that, you know, that it's tough.

Where they talk about, you know, where, you know, oh, yeah, we're just, you know, taking this guy's stuff all the time and doing all that. I mean, if you were really about it, you know, you want to brag about, you know, beating up some child molester who is weak as it is, obviously messing with kids. But if you were really about it and you're really tough, wouldn't you just take them out? You know what I mean? to me, it's like, uh, if you're not going to just deal with it, why even bother with it?

You know? Is that wrong? No, I mean, I mean, I mean, I, I mean, for me,

I just like, I just, I don't know. I do see those comments a lot. Like, when people do tell stories about beating up a child molester, they say that that's not necessarily tough because they're the weak ones. Dude,

I just think that for me, and that's another thing. I don't see, I don't see it being tough when you walk up to somebody. And just fucking stab him when he doesn't know what's coming or, or, or you got two dudes just, you know, stabbing the death of a dude. You know, to me that's not tough.

I don't see that being tough. You know what tough would be is you giving that guy a knife and you getting a knife and then you doing it, going to a cell. That's tough. Or even on the streets. Like, you know, I just don't see, I don't see that being tough, but a lot of people look and they'll say, oh, that guy, you know, he stabbed a bunch of dudes. Like, okay, like, you know, I just think that.

I just, I guess because I'm older now, I just don't see it. Now, these prison stabbings, when they go down, do you, like looking back on it now, do you feel for like their parents, their relatives, the people that they care about? Because we all have people that we care about in our lives that, you know, are indirectly affected by us going to prison. So when these types of instances go down, it causes even more like grief on the family. Yeah, when I was younger, I could say, this for a lot of people. We would laugh about it all the time. And I think, you know, I did a, I did an interview with the correctional officer, Todd Bartos, a while back ago, a couple weeks ago.

And he was talking about that because, you know, he said, like, we were talking about slashing somebody, because I slashed to somebody, I slashed the child molester at Heslena's Valley. And we laughed about it. But, you know, he said something that was like interesting. He said that, well, I want to make something clear here. It's not that. we're heartless people and that we're just like, you know, maniacs or whatever. But we laugh about it because it's like a defense mechanism. You know, you learn to, you learn to like just kind of get through it, you know, or you're going to go crazy because you see it so much.

Like I've seen a lot of stabbing in prison, okay, but you got to also understand that I was in the cell a lot. but like correctional officers that work eight hours a day there, everything that happens on the yard that day, they're responding to it. Could you imagine all the shit that they're seeing? You know what I'm saying? Are they becoming targets? Well, they become targets, you know,

and it's not necessarily their fault, you know? But what I'm saying is, is that, you know, like we'll go back to West Watson again. He says he sees all this stuff, crazy stuff, I did this or this guy's happening or this is, like how do you see all this stuff? You're in your cell almost unless you weren't unless you were like in a level two prison But stuff like that's not happening there and you know back to the the child molesters like I know there are parents of child molesters that watch and listen to the show and like when I hear some of these stories I feel for them because they're going through that and and that's not to say what their person their their child did isn't wrong

But it's like I feel like there needs to be an equal balance, you know? Like, are we really a better society because we're taking out those people in prison? You know, like they're in prison to serve their time because they did an awful thing. Do they need to be stabbed and attacked because of that

on top of that? I don't know. It's such a gray area, you know? I think how can I say this? I think if my daughter was molested and that sex offender got, I would wouldn't care. Now,

as being a parent, I think any parent, if something happened to their kid, regardless of what they did, they're going to be in pain. Yeah. And it's just, that's the only way to look at it. And I mean, you could, unless that, you know, I just, you know, I think that, you know, that's another thing that I laugh about, too. I was thinking about this the other day. You got all these guys in prison. You know, I've done it too. So I'm not just saying in prison where, you know, sex defender comes on the yard, you've got to go or anything.

But then when you get out of prison, they're all out of here too. Are you hunting them down on the streets too? You got Megan's law. You know, like, it's just, I don't, I just, yeah. Dude, it's tough, man. It really is because you feel for the innocent people that that person's actions directly caused, you know, pain to them. That's some sick stuff, though. Like, you know, I think that, like, they passed this law in one of these states to where if you,

you know, molested kids, you get in death penalty, you know. Didn't they say one, you're getting your, like, your body parts clipped or there's something? I think that. What is it, sodom? Dude, but the problem, you know, I can, I, I think that's a whole rabbit hole. I don't want to go down on this show, but, you know, some, a lot of these high level people in this country are weirdos, dude. I mean, look at the governor of, I just don't want to, that's a rabbit hole. I don't want to go down, but, uh.

No, people do crazy. shit and you really have to be like I'm conscious of when I'm interacting with people on social media like DMs and stuff you get like men I see what girls put out on men men are fucking creepy yeah in some of these instances saying the shit they said and I get creepy DMs from other men too yeah when they're coming on to me this and that people are creepy the men are creepy and they got they got to they got to they got to watch themselves they can't do that you know like that's not acceptable yeah and I see like I'll I follow some girls where they screenshot and they post it up there.

They can't block out the person's name, but I'm looking at them like, why do guys send this? To me, you're no different than like a choma or any of those if you're sending creepy shit to any type of girl like that. You should not be doing that at all.

And that's why I have an issue against the guys that jerk off in front of female correctional officers. See, that's weird, dude. That makes no sense. Yeah. I don't get that. And they get dealt with. It doesn't matter what side they're on, you know, whether on the SMY side, you know, they get dealt with because a lot of these inmates in there are trying to impress the staff as much as anybody else.

You know, they think that, you know, they're their friends when they're not. Okay. I say I've made a couple friends with correctional officers. But it's different. But, yeah. Now, you had mentioned from the get that you were focused on bettering yourself from the moment. you got life in terms. Not nothing the moment.

It took a long time. But for the most part, you started before. My point is you started before you knew your sentence was going to get reduced. Oh, yeah. Way before. I changed my whole life before I even knew I was getting out. So why? What's the mindset behind that knowing you're not getting out of prison?

So I just woke up and had said, you know, I was selling drugs and running around with knives at a prison. And I relapsed, you know, like, and I was running around with an. house of dope inside of me at all times and uh i was all sucked up and skinny like i was on the streets you know and i got in a lot of trouble you know people owed money people started dropping kites and then i ended up you know some guy he told on me and had my my room hit so you know we got in a fight it was on i ended up on level two i was on level two for about a year and uh i went to ad seg and i was just woke up and ads it was my daughter's birthday and i was just like i just don't do this no more. I just don't want to do it. And, uh, you know, I just made a decision that the next

prison I go to, even though I was doing groups here and there, I got my electrical vocation before all this and I just made a decision that the next prison I go to, I was going to change. I don't want to die in prison being a scumbag, you know, and, uh, I went to high desert. And I started doing all these groups. You know, I got a job in the boiler room. And I was hanging around with all these lifers that were doing these groups. You know, a lot of them were on their way to go on the board and stuff like that. I still wasn't going, I wasn't supposed to go to board until 2013. And even then, they weren't letting, back in the day, they weren't letting nobody out at board

anyways, but everything started changing at this time. But I wasn't supposed to go to board to 2013 because I had 28th of life. And then, so, but I changed, you know, I was just, you know, I changed, I did these groups. I learned a lot about myself. And then in like 2021, they started talking about Prop 57, where if you're a non-violent third striker and you got 15 years or more in that you're eligible to go to board, if you can get through the board of prison terms, you can get out no matter how much time you have left.

And during COVID, I got the slip in the mail saying, hey, you're going to board. And I went to board and got out. Close your eyes and imagine a room that feels soft, warm, and beautifully invited. That's life with Serena and Lily. Every piece is designed in-house, crafted by expert hands and made to pair effortlessly with the things you love. Choose from over 150 fabrics and finishes to create a space that feels personal and lived in with complementary design experts to guide you. Let your home feel like a sanctuary at serena and lily.com. Explore the possibilities at serena and lily.com.

Now, do you think that if you didn't take that time to better yourself before that was even a possibility, you would have ended up back in prison? If I would have got out in 2000, I almost got out, I thought I was going to get out with Prop 37 or Prop 36. If I would have got out during that time, I would have, you know, me and my buddy, we were actually in prison thinking we're both going to get out and we were talking about, yeah, well, we're going to, if we get out, we're going to rob an armored car. We were like, we were already talking about being back in prison before, you know, we even got out, you know. And he ended up getting out too. We were like really good friends. So we'd laugh about it now, but we've gone to Disneyland and stuff like that together. But if we would have got out during that time, because we were all strung out on morphine and meth and, you know, we were doing all sorts of crazy shit.

But we were like, if we get out, we're going to rob an armoured truck, you know. We were watching all the, like, shows on how they do it and how they don't get caught. But yeah, you know, because we're all messed up on drugs, man. We just had this mindset. Yeah. And then, you know, it's just whole changed. So you're in your 50s now. How many years did you do in prison total?

26. What does that make you think about? Like when you look at that and you do the math on paper, like you spent, you know, half of your life exactly in prison. You know, it's crazy because, like, music, every time I hear a song it reminds me of a prison I was at most of music from when I was in prison

all those years it'll remind me of being in prison all these songs remind me of that it's kind of crazy when you think about it huh it is it's a long time I mean something that always struck me was when I was in the feds

there would be guys that are like yeah I'm on my second 20 piece yeah and because the feds like they give out those 20 pieces like it's nothing you know and on 20 do what like 15 or 16 yeah and you're looking at these guys who look pretty young and they've already gone through 20 like I couldn't imagine yeah I still sometimes I can't even like like where

I'm at now in my life I remember you know through through the years thinking God I just want to be out it'd be great to be out and have a good life and have a girlfriend and job and just be normal and that thought it was impossible. I thought that's never going to happen. But you know, you dream like, God, if I would just did this, like, you know, and now here I am, you know, I've been out like almost three years now. I'm off parole. I'm an electrician. I'm making good money. Um, I have a great girl. I'm getting married. Uh, dude, I have the best life that I, that I could have. I never thought it was possible. You know, I don't think I've ever been happier in my whole life that I can remember.

I mean, when I was a kid, I didn't really remember too much. I remember just being a kid, but, you know, and then it was just all drugs for years in prison. But now, you know, I just, it's fucking unbelievable, dude. What advice would you give to the person that is having those thoughts that they would never obtain that and wants to obtain that? What advice would you give to them? Well, I think that now, even if you get a life set, unless you get life with

out, you know you're going to get out. But I would say that, you know, like, I'll give you an example. For me, I know that if I use meth, I'll pick up a gun and I'll end up in prison in that order. And whatever happens along the way, create victims, shoot people, whatever, that's what will happen. So what do I do?

I don't use meth. I just know that that's over. If you drink and it's going to cause problems and you're going to get in trouble, don't do it. You know, you have to take responsibility for your actions, you know, and if you don't, you're not going to move forward. What helps to keep you grounded now? God. Yeah. I think that that and just understanding that I feel that I owe it.

I owe it for all the bad stuff I've done in my life. I owe it to get back now, you know, to help people to hopefully not make the bad decisions I made. I mean, I'm still me. I still have these crazy thoughts. I still, you know, but I just know that that's, you know. You're human. You got the devil on one side and, you know, on the other side, you know. And I struggle with that.

But I know that I'm older now. I know the consequences. I know that it's not right. But, you know, my, all as I do now is I work, I go to the gym after work, and I do a lot of side jobs on the weekends, and I go to concerts, go to dinner, go to church. Do podcasts. Yeah, it's been happening a lot. But I would like to say, like, you know, me and my buddy Ronnie Harrell, we started a nonprofit.

called www.W. Starr-2020.org. His part is for anti-recidicism. He wrote a book called the Encyclopedia of Self-Help. And what his goal is to is to get all the books in prison and to get people not to re-offend. Because every person that he could stop to re-offend, that's the less victims being created. Because if you get somebody coming out of prison,

and they start using, you know, and getting in trouble again, they're creating victims. So to him, every person he could stop from doing that is less victims that are being created on the streets. My part is the at-risk youth part. So my goal in five years is to open up a couple of vocations in Orange County for kids who drop out of high school or kids getting out of high school that's fully paid for, for them to become electricians. so they can get in the trade and have a good life. It went online like a couple months ago, so we're trying to get donations for that. A dollar, five dollars,

whatever anybody could do to donate is going to help in the end. It's going to take a lot of funding, but that's our goal. That's awesome. Yeah. I'll put the link to that in the description of this episode. Yeah, and then also too, I'd like to, I would like to say something about my buddy Chad.

So this shirt right here is called Unfucked. So if the back of the shirt's like, we used to, we are fucked, we are unfucked. We used to be fucked, you know what I mean? Yeah, but now we're unfuck. That's actually great. Yeah. So what he does, him and his wife's summer, for a while, they've been, you know, doting money to recovery road or paying for people to get in to halfway houses that doesn't

have the money, you know, for drugs and stuff like that. So they started this clothing line so they could really give back to people and help people, you know, so these shirts are all over now. A lot of biker shops are getting them, but they're doing a really good thing too. That's awesome. They're good people. Were you able to rebuild your relationship with your daughter? Oh, it never went bad. Surprisingly, it never went bad. I kept in contact with her the whole time. What advice would you give to individuals who do serve a long prison sentence that come out and have to rebuild a relationship with their kid or even are thinking about how they're going to maintain that relationship while they're in prison to be a parent,

especially from a male perspective. This is what I did. And I'm surprised that my daughter really not upset with me. But I wrote her like two or three times a week. Growing up, I sent her when she was just a kid, I'd send her a card a couple times a week. But I would write her just a little, hey, I love you, how you doing? Not a lot, but I always kept the mail coming to her. and her grandma said that you know

that she listened to me she would listen to and she would be waiting by the mailbox all the time I think it's very important to constantly write your kid and just let them know you're thinking about them and I think that you know for me it helped me feel good about myself but it also helped my daughter but I would say that

you know just just try to be in their lives you know because you're still their parents they're still going to they're still going to love you they might not be happy with you but you know me and my daughter we talk you know now on the other hand I have a son

that is not going too well but you know I have no way to blame for myself but dad him and my daughter are the same age different mothers but he's in Texas it's a whole other story yeah

well I wish your son the best yeah you know I I see him, he posts like, you know, he'll like respond. Not respond, but he'll like get on some of my stuff on Facebook. But the thing with that, you know, is that, you know, his mom told him that somebody else was his dad until he was 18. He didn't even know that I was his dad. And then so it just kind of messed things up. You know, he's kind of, he's angry about that, which he has every right to be.

Yeah. And it's all my fault. In the end, you know, all of it's my fault because I left, you know. but you've learned from it and you're a better man today because of it yeah i don't know if i'm a better man because of it but uh you know it's just one of them things man well sucks chris thank you so much for coming on the show today it was a pleasure finally talking to you yeah thank you for having me definitely keep in touch you know if you want to send some shirts at the studio i'll make sure those get out and we'll have all the links to your book the shirts the um charity that you're

working on in the description of this episode yeah thank you