Locked In with Ian Bick - Ex-White Supremacist Prison Gang Yard Rep Reveals Life Inside Arkansas Supermax | Michael Ballard

Episode Date: December 1, 2024

Michael Ballard, a former yard rep for a white supremacist prison gang, shares his story of life inside Arkansas supermax prisons. In this interview, Michael talks about his role within the gang, the brutal realities of prison life, and the choices that led him down this path. He also opens up about the challenges of leaving that world behind and the lessons he has taken from his time in the system. #PrisonGangLife #SupermaxPrison #ArkansasPrisons #PrisonSurvival #GangCulture #LifeBehindBars #TrueCrimeInterview #BreakingFreeFromGangs Thank you to LUCY for sponsoring this episode: Go to http://lucy.co/ianbick and use promo code IANBICK to get 20% off your first order. Lucy has a 30-day refund policy if you change your mind.  Hosted, Executive Produced & Edited By Ian Bick: https://www.instagram.com/ian_bick/?hl=en https://ianbick.com/ Presented by Tyson 2.0 & Wooooo Energy: https://tyson20.com/ https://woooooenergy.com/ Buy Merch: https://www.ianbick.com/shop Use code lockedin at checkout to get 20% off your order Timestamps: 00:00:00 Introduction: Locked In Podcast with Michael 00:03:33 Family Dynamics and Parental Relationships 00:07:21 Family Struggles and Support 00:11:12 First Time in a Punishment Facility 00:15:10 Surviving in a Prison Environment 00:18:52 Breaking Point: Losing Everything in California 00:22:50 Impact of Solitary Confinement on Mental Health 00:26:43 Life Inside the Barracks: Open Protocols and Safety Concerns 00:30:46 Life in Supermax: Isolation and Mental Torture 00:34:32 The Role of Elders and Respect in the Group 00:38:13 Life in Supermax: Isolation and its Challenges 00:42:37 Usage and Methods in Prison 00:46:44 The Dilemma of Prison Locks and Violence 00:50:44 Life After Prison: Struggles and Reflections 00:55:40 Navigating Post-Prison Challenges 00:59:56 Making Amends After Prison Powered by: Just Media House : https://www.justmediahouse.com/ Creative direction, design, assets, support by FWRD: https://www.fwrd.co Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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have a kick cat michael welcome to locked in uh thank you to jimmy mcgill who was a guest on the show last year prison to purpose is the name of his podcast, and he has you out here promoting for him. The shirt does look great on you, by the way. We got to meet yesterday at the Next Step Recovery Housing. Can you tell people what that is? It's a recovery house, and what it is to me, it's a place that's saving my life right now. I've come from a place where people, man, just don't want to see you do good.

And ever since I've been there, you know, everybody wants to see me do good and they love me and they show me more love than anything I know. It's just a good place right now. How long have you been there for? 50 days. I'm telling you, it was really inspiring walking through there yesterday. It reminds me a little bit of a halfway house,

but a nicer version. I don't want to insult Jimmy or anything, but it was really nice. And just seeing the energy there and getting to know all the stories and just, you know, walking through. and then it was a really special moment last night speaking in front of the whole group. Can you describe what that setting was like,

who was there and whatnot? At the group last night? Yeah, at the group, who those people were. Well, it was Safe Haven girls, and it was the next step recovery guys. And, you know, of course, Chrissy and Jimmy McGill got to be there watching us, you know. But it was good.

Even in AA today, a girl was bringing you up, how just your story helped her, you know what I mean? And that's awesome that somebody's story or something like that can help somebody. Do you think that inspired you at all to share your story? It did. Because you walked through the house and I told you no, I shut you down on it. And after hearing you last night, you know what I mean? It kind of helped me.

That's awesome. Yeah, there's a real power, especially when you've come from places like you've come from that the audience will hear about. It's so inspiring because there's so many people out there that had that mentality or still have it of I would never do that. And you gave a great reason of why you were hesitant to do that. If you could, you know, share with us what that reason was. Well, because, like I told Jimmy, you know, I got one foot in recovery right now, and I have one foot still in the streets. So, you know, certain things, you know, I don't talk about

because I don't know if I'll end up back in prison one day or not. You know, that's how my mindset is right now. So there's certain things I don't feel comfortable doing, you know. and sometimes it's good to step outside your comfort zone what you're doing today now we're in arkansas right now we're in an air b in the middle of nowhere clarksville uh it's hard to even get an uber out here um i was trying to get a rental car earlier and everyone is sold out i guess they only have a couple cars at each location uh did you grow up here at all are you from here i grew up i was born in fort smith and raised in fort smith arkansas okay and that's like an hour from here

Yeah, about an hour. Is that bigger than Clarksville or smaller? Yeah, it's way bigger. Like a big city vibe? Yeah, it's what, second biggest city in, I think, Arkansas or something. Is Little Rock the first biggest city? Yeah. Okay, so Little Rock's a capital, right?

Yep. Okay, interesting. And what was that, like, growing up? Did you have your mom and dad in the picture together? At first, you know, my mom's always been in the picture. She's still in the picture today, you know. She's probably one of the best things in my life right now. My dad was there when I was little, you know,

and I never seen him, you know, until I got older. You know, he tried to be a part of my life, and I just didn't want it. I had too many memories of when I was little, you know. My mom grew up, you know, a little kid watching your mom get beat on, you know, by your dad and not building to do nothing, you know, made me hate him. So I didn't let him be a part of my life until five or six years ago, you know, and then I got mad at him. I wouldn't talk to him no more, you know, and he just died a couple months ago, you know.

So I got to go in there and get that closure with him and, you know, that's what brought me into recovery, is that, you know? Do you think if you never had that closure with him, you wouldn't have gotten into recovery? I really do, because, you know, I got to go in there and tell him I forgive him, and I love him. He said that's all he'd been waiting on, you know. And he set up the next morning and died. And it broke me. It really broke me, like, for two months after that, I was praying somebody would,

somebody were murdering me, so I didn't have to kill myself. You know what I mean? I just didn't care. And then, after OD in a couple times in a week, I went and put myself in rehab. First guy to ever graduate to rehab, first guy to ever walk. in the rehab horizon in boomville Arkansas

and uh I went to an ASAP concert and uh I went up to Chrissy and them at the table and I standing up there you know fighting for a bed in their house and they just seen that I wasn't leaving

and I was fighting for it you know what I mean and they said well how about we put you on the couch I said I sleep outside if I got to you know um then it kind of fell through like they couldn't put me on the couch so she said she put me at the top of the list. I went home and got a job, got two checks and relapsed.

Found myself in a motel room with a big shot of fitting office and end my life. Chrissy called. She kept her word. She put me at the top of that list. Then a counselor from rehab's wife come to that motel room. She messaged me about that time that I was, you know, she said, could I come see you? I don't know what made me let her come see me,

but I did, and she kicked back to trapped. Trapped, oh, that's a motel room. I didn't even want to be in there. It's just shady. But she kicked back on that bed, and she said, I ain't leaving. You can go home with me, or I'll stay the night here with you. And I went home with her, and I got up in here, and Chrissy called me and told me to come the next day.

She wanted me Monday, but she found out what happened, and she told me to be up there Saturday to save my life. you know so i was just at my end you know not i felt like i was so weak-minded i couldn't make it two weeks so was that the first time you experienced people actually caring about you like to that level that wanted to help you do better and change your life and get clean yes um besides my mom yeah but you know my mom the past year you know she's the biggest thing in my life and she told me uh she didn't deserve her my brother didn't deserve

to see me like this no more it hit hard so you know I didn't go around her the whole year you know so I might have seen my mom a couple times in a year so at that point I didn't have nobody

showing me nothing you know what I mean and then Angie Chrissy even Jimmy you know and they show me you know they gave me what I needed

he's got a lot of love for you Yeah. Now, growing up, did you have a sibling at all, brother or sister? I had four sisters, no brothers. Four sisters? Yeah. You were the only boy. They just say they know how to fight.

Are you the youngest or oldest? I'm the second to Otis. Okay. Were you guys close? Yeah, all of us was real close until we got older. Two of my sisters real bad in addiction, you know. I wasn't at the time. I went to prison when I was younger, got out, got a job in Oldfield, was doing good.

I didn't even start doing drugs until I started three. My sisters were bad addiction, so that's one we kind of dipped off because I didn't understand it at the time. And I didn't even let my sister come to mine and my wife's sweating because she was getting high and stuff. You know, I mean, and that's one thing that eats me up today, you know, is because look at me today, you know. So the table's turned. And that goes to show it could happen to anyone. Yeah. And, you know, if you walk a mile on someone else's shoes before judging, that's very powerful.

That's interesting, though, that you became addicted to something so late in life. Were your parents, did your parents struggle with any addiction issues? No. No, I didn't grow up with the, like, me and my sister didn't grow up around our parents struggling with addiction. We didn't grow up a good life, but our mom raised. just the best she could, you know. We didn't have a bad life. What'd she do for work?

She married my stepdad and he on the roofing business, so she really didn't work. She stayed home with us, you know, but she was strict. Now I know, like, I look back and I think, hey, mom been preparing me for the penitentiary in my whole life. She knew something I didn't know. You know what I mean, grounded me to my room or something like that, you know? How do you think she would describe you back then as a kid?

I'm a mom as a boy, so I don't. I mean, I never backtalked my mom or, you know, even show, like, I just loved her, you know. And, I mean, I got in trouble at school and stuff like that. But, man, I never even got trouble with the cops until I was 17 years ago. I mean, everyone gets in trouble at school, you know? You didn't have a real school experience if you didn't get in trouble. What was the first time you got in trouble for with the cops? Well, I said 17, I got sent to Job Corps.

And I was coming home on weekend passes. I know it sounds stupid, but I was coming home on weekend passes, and I was getting, taking weed back up the Job Corps because, you know, I could make some money up there, you know. And, well, we was walking. I walked over to get some, you know, got high, and I was walking railroad tracks back, got hungry. So there's lights off on the house and went up, back door, it was unlocked.

I was in there making me a sandwich when the cops pulled up. So I got that breaking an inner charge in possession, you know, so that was the first time I got in trouble. And do you go to jail for that prison? Yeah, they sent me to RPF. It's like a, I don't know if you ever heard of it. It's not really a prison, but it's a punishment facility. It's like a daycare for guys, really. I did 120 days there, and I got out.

and stall the car, did some other stuff, and you end up back in real prison, you know, so. I'm surprised they didn't give you, like, a probation or something, like a diversion. That's where everybody said. I just didn't get lucky like that. Yeah. Do you think it would have been worse for you if you did get something like that? Probably.

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from that program and you're stealing cars getting into trouble. Yeah, I'm working with my dad roofing houses and stuff and still trying to, I don't know what kind of life I was trying to live, but, you know, keys were in it. It looked like the thing to do. So, you know, I stole this car, drove it off in the river, got caught, and they sent me, uh, they gave me six years at DC. And that's the max in Arkansas or? That was a max on that. Okay. You know,

um, I guess. And like a max security prison. Oh, yeah, I ended up, yeah, I ended up down in Varna

at a maximum security prison, you know, uh, I've never got the chance to go to a medium secure prison, like, uh, but yeah, it is max,

uh, and this is your first time in a real prison. Yeah. What did you think of it? Uh, was back in, early 2000s, you know, when you walk in there, there's only five or six white guys in the barracks. What can you think? Like, it's scary. You know, anybody says it ain't lying to you.

You know, especially for a 160-pound white guy walking in there, ain't never been in there before. And one of the, they call it gladiator school. Warner's gladiator school. So, you know, it's, it was scary. There wasn't a day in there that wasn't scary for me. And did you have tattoos at the time or no? No. So you had nothing. You're just a young, early 20-year-old white kid walking in there. Why are whites a minority there?

Back then, it was that, I don't, it's not that way no more because of meth, but back then, I don't know. Now, what were mostly people there for? What kind of charges? Warner was a lot of rape, murder. Warner was like the worst of the worst you know

and it's just the luck of the draw that that's where that was my home unit you know I mean that's where I've always gone back to you know there's times

I'd call my mom until I love her you know I mean if I didn't make it through the night I love her you know that's how scary

that place was and is it scary because of other inmates gangs or what is why is it so violent there um not right yeah

it's just to other inmates, you know what I mean? You know, like, back then they didn't have nothing for a white guy in there. You know what I mean? If you were white, you were... On your own? Yeah. And that's back before I figured out the whole affiliation and all that stuff, you know.

So none of that existed there at that time? It was, it existed, but, you know, it wasn't big, like, it was just getting his feet off the ground back then, you know what I mean? Like, there wasn't a mini bro. and stuff like that back then. So do you think that there was a way if the criminals justice system did it right to never have that type of lifestyle in the prisons?

Like if there was a period of time where it never existed, couldn't there have been a way for it to never exist? I don't think so. You think it was doomed and it was going to be that way regardless? Yeah. I'm not saying it didn't exist, you know,

because the gangs I'm talking about are Arkansas gangs, you know, like war, N-A-E, you know, they were just really getting started. You know, there's been always gangs in the penitentiary. But these Arkansas gangs were just really getting started, you know. So when I first went down, I didn't even, that wasn't even a thought in my head, you know, it's getting affiliated.

What was going through your mind, just trying to make it through? Just trying to survive, you know, make it home, you know. Not only did you have to worry about inmates, you had to worry about the guards. You know what I mean? just tough times, you know, down there and then for a while, yeah, that's all I could say about that. So on the six-year sentence,

how long do you end up doing that first bid? I end up doing two years of it. A little over two years, probably. I was supposed to go home in a year, but it's just impossible in Warner, you know. But, you know, I went home probably two, two and a half years, I think, back then. And what happens after you get out?

I went to work, you know. Back for your stepdad? Yeah. And then I got in a little more trouble and stuff, but it didn't get me sent back. And I got, I was actually doing community service and a guy I worked in the oil field and gave me a job and saved my life, man, from going back to prison for a lot of years. For nine years, I worked in the oil field. I had a wife, kids, a house, had anything I wanted, you know. And then, I thought I made all the money.

I do what I want. You know what I mean? She stayed home with the kids and just treat her like crap. End up losing her and everything went downhill from there. Wow. So you literally transform your life, which most people aren't able to do in your 20s. You get it, you get married, and then it hits you.

Yep. What do you think was that actual moment that really was the deciding moment to go down that path? I guess after she moved to California with my boys. I just kind of gave up on everything, you know. It just, it broke me, you know. That was my breaking point right there. I ended up losing the job, Noel Field a little bit later,

and I think I caught a robbery charge or I don't know what to charge. And I caught an aggravated assault on her, actually. She caught me cheating, and, you know what I mean? I was pissed about it. That's where it really ended at all. She caught me cheating and doing what I want to do, you know. I thought I made all the money. I'd do what I want to do.

and ended up catching an aggravated assault on her. And that was a breaking point. Because, you know, I watched my mom get beat on. So for me to turn into my dad, it killed me, you know? Like, it broke me. Why do you think you followed in its footsteps when you look back on it now? And, you know, you have these years of reflection and meeting people in prison and sobriety.

Why do you think that was? Were you unhappy? Was there, you know, other feelings and emotional? emotions going on in your mind. Why do you think I, would you ask if I, why to follow it in his footsteps? Yeah. Man, because I really don't know. I want to sit here and say, man, because I watched it my whole life, you know what I

thought that's what was right, but I know better than that, you know. I don't like being told what to do or, you know, I want to do things my way, you know what me. And I think that's what made me like that. Why didn't you turn to drugs at that time, too? I know you went back to crime, but why drugs? Believe it or not, I didn't even turn to drugs until I got in county jail. That's when I really got bad on drugs. We were knocking windows out, county jail pulling up, pulling up sex.

You know, we were just like, Get the whole barracks high, you know what I mean? That way nobody telling us. Make people didn't even want to get high, get high, so they wouldn't go tell on us, you know. And it didn't slow down from there. I got sent to prison, and it was just too easy to get, you know, and that's where a turning point on drugs was in my life. Like, I started doing drugs in county jail.

What kind of drugs were accessible, do you? Meth. It was that easy to get meth back then. Yeah, yeah. What's crazy is, in prison, I don't got to run around and look for it. I don't got to run the streets and look for it. It comes to me in there, you know. It's just easier to get high in there and what it was.

Yeah, that's how it is in the feds too. You get whatever you want. But it's miserable. You know what I mean? When I think back, I don't know why somebody want to put theirself through that. It wants to be in a barracks where 50 guys high, wgging out.

It ain't no fun. Now, did you have one long prison sentence after that, or is it just in and out your whole time? I've been seven times, But yeah, my last trip was four and a half years. I was supposed to go home in 10 months. I made parole a week from going home, I get knocked off. And I end up doing three and how many other more months.

I did four and a half years. I did three up in the Supermax, 24-hour lockdown. That was a breaking point in my life. Not getting out of that cell, but four or five times in three years, you know. nobody to talk to. It's just like back there it's just like what's the point in life? You know what I mean? And I got two one year and I was back there.

You know what I mean? So I'm like, I didn't think I was going nowhere. So many of the times I come to the top of my book bag, you know what I mean? Sheet around my neck. You know what I mean? Just couldn't go through with it. You know, and it affected me when I got out. I forgot how to carry on a grower.

conversation. I was anti-social. I didn't want to be around nobody. I got to my mom's. I was just paced back and forth and tell my mom I want to go home. Mom's like you are home. I'm like, no, I want to go home. You know, so all that time in the Supermax, it just really affected me. Do you think prison and these Supermaxes create that environment for someone like yourself to, you know, get affiliated with the gang, even though that wasn't your upbringing? I mean, you had, you had, for most part a decent family with good morals and you worked hard and you built a life for yourself. You're not, you know, by textbook, someone that would ever go down that path. What made me get affiliated was being able to get a fair fight down there, you know what I mean,

not getting jumps, you know. They show me more loved than, you know, and I felt in a long time of my life, you know. They just feel something that I was missing at that time, you know what I mean? If I could go back and do it today, I wouldn't, I wouldn't never went down that road. You're vulnerable. Yeah. How different was the prison environment from when you were there, you know, 10 years earlier? Way different.

A lot's change, you know. There's more bros. There was just a lot changing in that 10 years. 2017 was the scariest I've ever seen the penitentiary, you know, like stand up, you know, blast and white standing there, you know what I mean? One of I'm saying, somebody from each race is going to die today, you know, stuff like that. You know what I mean? It changed a lot. Half the guards work in the door are affiliated with floods, crypts, GDs, stuff going on in the barracks.

You know, you'd sit there and they'd watch why people were getting stabbed or hit with locks. And somebody could walk down the hallway, they flashed lights, like tell them to stop until the guy walked through the hallway, you know, and then go back. Looking to start 2026 with an unforgettable getaway. Airways sale is on now. Fly non-stop round-trip to Fiji from just 748. Or enjoy a sunny Fiji stopover on your way to Australia with round-trip fairs starting from 839. As a One World Alliance member and American Airlines Advantage program partner, your miles go further across the South Pacific. Book now at Fiji Airways.com or contact your local travel agent.

Conditions apply. Are these guards just paid off or did they like seeing violence or why do you think that is? they're part of the they're part of the whatever gang that was but they ain't got a background they're in there working you know what I mean they're bringing

they're you know they bring stuff in and out for you know how it works do you think the people at the top like their bosses like the wardens the assistant wardens are they like that too or do they turn a blind eye or is it just impossible to control it's impossible from control

some might but you know some don't go for So it's just impossible to control all that. You know, half the time, you know, I'd make dummy racks and stay out of my barracks for four or five days, and they wouldn't even come in to count, you know. That's like, what, putting sheets under? Yeah, yeah, and you could tell I wasn't in my rack.

I'd be high getting tattooed up, four or five barracks down, you know. They'd come through and say, yep, looks like everybody's here, if they even come in. Wow. And that's how scary it was. Is that only because you were affiliated or does that anyone? No, that was just Warner at that year. You know, it was just how Warner were running that year. It was just like wide open.

Guards were scared to come in the barracks. You know, we'd go to, we'd go to Chow and grab our trays and walk back to the barracks with them. They'd try to stop us like, no, in our shower shoes, homemade shorts, you know, like it was just wide open. No, you were walking around freely in your shower shoes? Yeah. That was allowed.

It's It's not allowed You know They pop doors Say five The library 20 was roll out You know They can't stop us

No but I mean by like Inmate protocol Because isn't technically You gotta always be ready No it's not It's not We're being affiliated We're not supposed to

Go anywhere without We can't even walk to the shire Without shoes You know what I mean We can't walk in our shower shoes If we sit down And It's supposed to be

We sat down and take a, on the bathroom, take a poop. We got to have one pants leg out of our, you know what I mean? Stuff like that. That's for affiliated, you know, that's what we're supposed to do. Is that because there's a constant threat at all times? Yeah. I mean, you can't defend yourself with both pants legs in, you know, so. Have you ever witnessed anything firsthand, something if you did have both pants legs in?

Like, people getting jumped. on. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I've seen them. Yeah. And who are the biggest rivals that you have to watch out for personally when you're walking around? Our own people, really. You have to watch out for your own people? Pretty much. Why is that? Because it just ain't what it seems. It ain't that picture that it's painted. You know, I've, I've smashed out and cut off more patches in my own robes than I have done anything else in the penitentiary. And that's because they did something that was deemed a violation? Supposedly.

That someone above you was telling you was a violation. Yeah. Or somebody was holding, somebody affiliated in the same affiliation, was holding a grudge against them and called a shot. A lot of bogus stuff. How does that make you feel now, looking back on those actions? I just got a whole different opinion, you know. Even the bros, even a lot of my bros,

now, you know, they don't like my how I feel about it. I just don't think it's what it was when I first got affiliated. It's sad how some of them got done, you know? How do the guards treat you once you become affiliated? Like one day you're not and then the next day you are. What does that transition look like? You get treated different. Some don't treat it so different, but yeah, we get traded different. You know, they'll put us on file and all that, so, you know, it's all known. When you're out of population, it's kind of different. But when you get put back there in the Supermax, you're in cell by yourself,

you get treated, treated way different. You know, I raised a lot of hell in there, you know, throwing piss on guards and when I was in isolation and doing stuff to them. And I didn't think about the long run for me, you know, I mean, getting put in the Supermax for them to, though, in population, they can't just pinpoint you out, but in a cell by yourself, man, they torture me, man. They torch my mind. You know, I'd have them get food out of the carts, you know, I mean, getting everybody's outside of the cart and getting mine off the top.

You know, there'd be days I wouldn't even eat back there with them guards, you know, because I know they were doing stuff to my food. Stand at my door talking about putting fit and all in. They could put enough fit and all in my food to kill me if they wanted to, you know, stuff like that. What did you do to land yourself there at the Supermax? I had a homeboy that was in a barracks with me, and I took care of him and all that. He got moved to a different prison. He knew my family and stuff.

He's from the streets. He called my mom and said I got a phone sucked up. I told her to sit at $450, you know, cash app. She did it because, you know, she thought my life was in danger. When I found out, I was heated over it. So I got on, I didn't go get a cell phone like I should have, but I got on a state phone, called somebody at the house, had him do a three-way call over the Cummins where he's at,

put a hit out on him to get him stabbed up. You did that over the phone? Sure did. That's how mad I wasn't thinking, you know. And they listened to the phone call, and they come in there deep, got me. And the warden told me I never, they labeled me as a shot caller for N-AE, and told me I'd never get out of Supermax. long as he was a warden there. They looked at you as a shot caller over that I was putting a hit

out on somebody yeah were you no I know not a shot collar um I was a yard rip but I wasn't no shot caller for him what's a yard wrap me in you just over the yard I mean you make the final everybody votes on something you make the final decision you know the final call on it you know so we I call yard call and we talk about whatever it was and everybody vote on it, then I make the final decision on. And how is that different from a shot caller? Are the shot callers the ones that are like in, say, in solitary

that can still be passing notes like what we see in the movies and what people talk about? Yeah. Yeah, that's the shot callers. Okay. So I feel like there's a big misconception out there that the shot callers are actually the ones in the yard physically doing everything. I feel like it's mainstream, you know, media has put it out. Most of our shot callers are back there locked up like you do see.

And that's why once I got labeled as one, I was back there. There's no coming out for me. And there's no way to have someone else say you're not that? Because isn't it bad to be labeled as a shot caller when you're not a shot caller? Or no, it doesn't matter. No, I mean, the prison is going to label you however they want to label you. You know, we can't stop that. so it is bad for whoever's getting labeled as that

but what about the inmates do they care no okay and when if you're a yard rep and you go to the shoe does someone just automatically take your position yes they will vote another person in so a lot of it's like voting and respectful yeah we have we have no rank everybody's treated like equal now we do got else elders, you know, I mean, people being in it 15 years or more like, or elders, you know, I mean, they get more respect. We get, we get treated more respect than the other ones. You know,

we get kind of listened to, but everything's a vote with us. How long did it take them to get you after you made that phone call? About two days. Oh, it did take them two days. Yeah. So they didn't listen to it till way longer? No. No. I don't even know if. I don't even know if they would have ever listened to it, but he was messaging off the cell phone. And I wanted to see what he was saying, you know what I mean? So I had my mom screenshot it and sit it to me in an email.

Stupid. When they read the email, it looked like I had a cell phone back there. So that's when they come, got me and locked me up over a cell phone. They found two cell phones and some drugs. They didn't find all that on me. They locked me up over that, and they go back listen to my phone call. Not only did I do that phone call is when I got back to isolation, I did another three-way call over the same phone. And pretty much called our president,

you know what I told him about it and then told him what I wanted done and all that. And so they listened to this phone call too. From solitary. From solitary. They still gave you access to the phone. They didn't ban your phone calls? Not at that point because I hadn't been taken a disciplinary course. But they took my phone away here right after that. So the president actually got on the phone with you on a recorded line? Yeah. And he was in another prison too? No, he was at home.

Okay. So when they come in there and hand me the other disciplinary, I didn't even need to read it. I knew what it was. And they wanted to take me disciplinary court. I just told him, no, I'm good. I knew what it was. Wow. So.

So were your own people upset at, with you over this whole situation? No, they weren't upset. They were ready to take action on it, their self. They were upset about the whole situation. They were more upset because the guards made it look like when they come in and got me. They've been wanting to come in there anyways

because they knew where two cell phones were and they knew where the drugs were. But they've been looking for a reason to come. in there so when they come in there and got me they come in deep and went got them two phones and the drugs so it made it look like I told on these two phones and drugs so they were real upset about that you know I mean and for a minute you know what everything I've worked for for all these years was in jeopardy over that you know and so a couple of them went to the lieutenants and all that they pulled up all my

stuff and seen where I didn't tell you know I mean it ain't in me to do that and a lot of them knew it but they still had to look so that's what that was a main deal with that whole situation. What happened to the guy you called the hit on? Did he survive? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think he's in county jail

if he's going back to prison right now. Now, when you're in the shoe and you're affiliated, they don't put you with another cellmate or you kept separate? In isolation, they did. But when you can make it back to the actual super match, you're in a cell by yourself. You can yell out.

and talk, but I don't know stand on that door and do all that. You know, so you know, it's just, then you've got to fight for the phone to talk to your family, you know. There's three tiers, 26 cells on each tier, one phone, it's a homeboy system. Phone day, you stand up,

yell for the phone, they'll take it to the homeboy all day. So, you know, it's like I didn't get to talk to my family back there. It's just a big breaking point in my life, like, and it might be. been what I needed to, so I told myself, you know, the last time this is,

this is it for me. You know, I've been sitting there and through the, through the vents talking to guys, you know, through the vent to the cell next to me, you know what I mean? And breakfast call, watch them cut them down. You know what I mean? Drag them out, drag their lifeless bodies out of there, man, because some people don't make it back there.

No, do they put all of the people that are affiliated, like by gang in cells next to each other? Like you guys are all grouped together? Or is everyone spread out? Could you be next to? Everyone spread out. It depends on where you go.

Like there's, I think, six, six whatever we call it, pods or whatever. You know, 78 in each of them. They just spread us out. And what about rec? You can get it. I never went. Because why would I want to be taken from one cage

other. It's brick walled all around it and a fence on the top. You know, I never wanted to be shackled up, walked all the way down there, take a chance to get in trouble. So I never went. And showers? Shires were in there with us. Okay, you had the shower in there. Yep. And did you do the rest of your time in Supermax? Yes, I made pro out of Supermax. So they never let you walk the yard again after that? Never. Well, what would have happened if you went back if you did get out and went back to the yard? They would have welcomed me back out. there. I mean, they wanted me back out there, you know, they were trying to get me back out there, but nothing would have, I don't know if I'd liked it out there after being back in that cell by

myself anymore, you know, it's kind of like, but I never got, you know, I never got that chance. I hope I don't ever get the chance to fill up that what it's going to feel like to be out there again, so. Share us the, share with us the, the, the mental, you know, issues that come with being in solitary like that, in confinement like that for that. long period of time. How do you start to deteriorate? Like you go, you go from, you know, being on the yard and you have this sense of freedom to a certain extent. And then you're put into, you know, basically like a cage where you have no freedom, even worse than you had before. What does that feel like for you? I felt empty and hopeless back there. I told you,

like there's no point of life back there. It, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, me so bad that when I was riding to the bus station, the guard just kept talking to me. You know what I mean? And I'd just look at him. You know what I mean? Finally I had to tell him, I'm sorry. I ain't trying to. I forget I had a carry on his conversation with anybody, you know?

I didn't want to be around nobody. I was isolating myself when I got out. Sometimes the people I was staying with me like, hey, you haven't left the house in three weeks. You didn't even let that room. You know what I mean? Because that's... Were you able to still get drugs in there? Yeah.

Yeah, I did. But my last 18 months, I stayed clean. Longest I've ever been clean since I started. I got out and it was just too much on me when I got out and I started using again. And it's always been meth every time that was your drug of choice. Yes. In the prison, how do they use me? Point Race Farmstead Cheese has the perfect way to celebrate your gun.

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anyway you can think of, you know, cutting a can, smoking it off a can. At the end, you know, we were having somebody go get a needle. I didn't even start shooting. That was a turning point in my life was 2018 when somebody first stuck a needle on my arm, you know. And at the end, it was just, that's how we did it. We passed it around like it was nothing, you know. Even basalt, man, down there shooting basalt. You know, I mean, it's horrible.

How often do the prison officials charge someone criminally with some of these acts of violence? Like, you know, for yourself trying to orchestrate a hit, they're not, you know, referring that to prosecution at all? Yeah, it was. I was, it didn't go that far. But, yeah, I was facing charges over this. I was facing more time, though.

For some reason, I didn't get it. But now, back when I first went, they wasn't taking things too serious. Now, you know, they take things pretty serious. Getting caught with the cell phone now is 15 extra years. Really? Yeah. For every, is it across the board fair like that,

or do they pick and choose? They pick and choose. Okay, that's what they do in the feds too. They pick and choose. Yeah, and that's not necessarily fair. Yep. Yeah, on everything, they pick and choose, you know, so. What do you think was the most horrific thing for you about prison,

that you witnessed and experienced personally yourself. Being stabbed four times and hit with a lock. You got stabbed personally four times. Yeah. What happened that day? I've been up some days. Thought they were talking about me, jumped up, and started running my mouth, just telling them I ain't a weak-ass white boy like they think and all this.

They weren't never talking about me. Some GDs try to come get me to calm down and said somebody was going to bite that bone. I wouldn't shut up so they bit that bone it wasn't life-threatening stabs or nothing like that I didn't go to the firmery

because once you go to the firmery it's over with for you it's pretty much a catch-out move you just put some whatever on it and go put that lock no I don't want to hit with that lock no more it knocked a patch of hair

out of my front of my head and I try to bend down and pick it back up and put it on there but you know if they come at me with a lock I tell them go get the blades no this is a lot lock and the sock.

They tie a string to it now, put it around their wrist, and it's pretty deadly. Wow. Did you get a concussion from that? I don't know it was a concussion. I know it hurt like hell. And do they just hit you once,

or are they continued? One good hit. Just one, and that's your message. Yeah. Yeah, I got one hit, you know, but I've seen people beat to their eyeballs popped out of socket with them locks, you know. But yeah, I got one good hit.

Why do you think the prison still provides locks? in these supermaxes. Like, wouldn't it be better to have people steal than some of the violence that happens with these locks? Probably. But then the stealing's whole new, you know, people stealing set riots off. You know what I mean?

Somebody stole my buddy, one of my bro's stuff, you know what I mean? And it said we had a five, six hour standoff in there. Blacks against whites over, you know, so you could go both ways. And they don't expect guys to get you know how guys are in preintentioning

they're going to find a way they're going to do something. They don't expect us to get them locks off them they're welded on there we're going to get them off though now the people that attacked you

was that your own people or a rival? No, no it was a rival and do you guys automatically retaliate because you're a yard rep? That depends

you know we'd talk and decide on that you know over that was a retaliation no that's my fault you know I own that I got put on over that I got put on no chemicals for a while you know they didn't want so and your tattoos all came from prison most every one of them and are those given to you for free because of your status or do you have to pay for them yeah um most of my affiliated tattoos were free but um a lot of other ones you know uh i paid for you know our uh i'd buy every tattoo gun there was and hold them so if somebody wanted tattoo i'd say hey do a tattoo on me and i let you use a gun to make some money you

know so how much does the tattoo gun sell for uh you can get them 50 to 75 dollars it's a pretty good deal yes there wasn't many floating around so if i bought every one of them i even pay extra for them that way I had them all. But my whole body's done from ankles up. Were you in contact with your family, your sisters, your mom or your dad while you were in prison? Yeah, my mom. I stayed in contact with my mom and a couple other people. My sister didn't really ride her.

I talked to them, but my mom, you know, she's always been there for me. Was she ever trying to knock some sense into you, you know, talking to you, asking you about? has one thing here recently it hit me hard is you know I just got out you know I would never let my mom come visit so all these years I don't see my mom or nothing like that and I just got out you know and here I am already on the run again and I'm just facing 90 days in counting you know what I mean but I don't want to go do it my mom messaged me she said can I get my son back before I die She goes, I just got you back.

It hit hard. I had her come get me that Monday and drive me down and turn myself in. So, you know, she's always trying not to get me to do the stuff I do, but she's always been there for me. Once you got out of prison this last time, what was that transition like? I know you had struggled a little bit. You were clean, and then you fell back to drugs. Were you working at all?

How hard was it for you? It's hard. And I, uh, I wanted to, you were. wanted to go back to prison, you know, at that point, you know, it was easier for me at the time than being out here. I never lived that backpack life that trap house or trap house life until this time when I got out, you know. So, you know, prisons was a lot easier for me, you know, so I tried everything I could to not go back, but still kind of in a way I wanted to go back. Do you feel like it would have been easier to be in prison? Yeah. Like that the outside

World was so hard, especially after spending so many years inside. Yeah. I got out, just people seen the difference in me, like, that last sentence, you know, it changed me. I just wasn't the same person. I didn't care about nobody, you know. I felt like back there I learned how to live without love. I didn't need somebody to love me no more, you know what I mean?

Because I was back there three years without it, like felt empty and built this wall up for everybody case something happened to them while I was locked up that it wouldn't kill me, you know? Do you think you needed to be in that solitary for that long to help you escape from the mentality of gang life? Were you over it when you got out? The whole gang life? Yeah. Yeah, I was. Did a part of you feel like it was bad to feel that way?

It is, because I got a lot of love for these, a lot of these guys. But I know that that life has got me nowhere, but away from my family. way out of character someday I'm not, you know. At the end of the day, these guys don't care, they're not mowing my mama's yard, they're not taking care of my family, but I've given my life up for them.

You know, I'm going to prison over them. They want you to put them before your family, you know? They call it hit on your mama, they want you to go do that hit. You know, that's sad. You know, I still got one foot in it right now and one foot out of it, you know. But I'm trying to change that.

How do you move on from that? How do you actually change that? What's helping you right now? Just learning who I am. Learning I don't got to be something I'm not. I'm going to run around here and hate people and hurt people to be happy. Seeing how we do our own people, you know, that's helped me change a lot. You know, when you got to sit down with somebody that's been like a brother to your whole life

can cut a patch off on them or burn a patch off them it just takes a part out of you man how do you feel about your affiliated tattoos now as a few i don't want but as a few i'll never get rid of it's a part of me i got them all over my body uh you know i don't i got big old swatskaska all over my legs and stuff like that i don't feel comfortable like wearing shorts around uh because i feel disrespectful like i'm disrespecting uh you know like i went to yobi bear water park you know and a black family and their kids are swimming and all this. And I go put my shirt back on, man. They don't understand that.

You know, you ain't been to prison. They don't understand that. They just think I'm some racist person, you know. Some of them I wish I didn't have, but, you know, my patch and stuff, I'll always keep it until the day they come for it, you know, which is just a matter of time with them. Are you worried about that? Do you always look over your shoulder?

That's one of my biggest worries is that, you know what I mean? Because you never know. I have these brothers that's been covered up. They never know. Something bogus could be said. You know how it is. Something I say right now could piss them off, you know? But I don't care at that.

You know what I mean? If they're going to come get it, they're going to come get it. Do you think that there are other people like you that are still in it that want to get out? Definitely. What do you think is the number one thing holding them back from escaping? we don't let no cover-ups walk the yard, man. So once that's covered up, we don't walk the yard no more. So you've got to be ready to be done with prison

and know you're not going back. That's like what I told Jimmy the other day. I don't know if I ever go back. So it's hard for me to be done with this life because once you're covered up, you're not walking a yard. We don't let it cover-ups walk the yard. You'll be in PC or isolation or whatever you want to call it. What are the steps you're taking now to make sure you don't go back?

You'll be real honest at this point. I don't know if I'm going back or not. I've got some stuff hanging over my head right now that's supposed to be getting taken care of. We're working on it and the steps I'm taking it. I've turned it all over to God right now. Just praying about it. And everything seems to be working towards my favor right now on it. And you're working?

I am working. First time in 10 years. You're around? like-minded people yeah and people look up to you yeah I think that's doing a pretty good job of you know working towards something yeah and that's I think the power of the people like the jimmy mcgill's in the world because they have such a you guys have so much love for him and so much impact and you could see all that love and energy in a room like last night yeah definitely and you know some mclovin looking ass could relate to you and you know just a 29 year old kid from connecticut

And, but I feel you, you know. And I think that's why it's important to share these types of things and have these conversations, no matter how hard it is to have them. Because there's so many people that are, were in your shoes or are in your shoes now. Yeah. A few months ago, if you told me I'd be sitting where I'm at,

in a recovery house or anything, you know, I still struggle, man. I still got one foot in the streets and one foot in recovery, like I said. you know what i mean by trying to put that both feet in recovery right now uh i struggle with being told what to do you know uh but jimmy told me you know uh i've been doing things my way look where it got me do things his way for once and see where it goes so he runs a tight chip you know yeah i don't like i don't like essays and it seems like i've been getting hit a lot with them but you know and i'll be mad about it yeah he doesn't even like a pair of drawers on the

floor but yeah i'll try to talk my way out of You know, I feel like though we respect that from him because he is someone that was there He was in prison. So how can you not respect the person that's telling you to do that who was there? Because he's lived that It's not like it's some you know say a correctional officer who's never or a case manager who's never walked that life How do you plan to make amends with your family your immediate family? Or anyone you've wronged before you went to prison on that journey to going to prison? going to continue to work on myself and prove I'm not that person no more, you know what I mean. And I've burned a lot of bridges.

I've burned a lot of bridges while I'm still standing on. A lot of them can't be built back. And I ain't no bridge builder, but I'm going to try to, you know, try to fix everything with them. I don't got much family right now. It still talks to me, you know, all this. But my mom, she stepped back in there strong. And I got Angie, you know, she's the one that saved my life, and she's a big part of my life right now. I love her to death, like, but she's on me.

She's not letting me leave this place, you know. So she's like, that's a whole new family that stepped in and they love me, you know. And like I said, when she come to that motel room and laid down on that trapped out bed that I don't even want to lay down on, they didn't know when they took me in their house if I was going to rob them or what? don't know me, but they're willing to take a chance on me, you know, and, uh, that means everything to me. So, you know, and I got a new family now, that next step family, man. They love me. There's more love in that house, Chrissy, all of them, you know. It's just an incredible place, man. If everything works out for you, which I, I personally think it will, uh, where do you see yourself

and say five years? What are, what are those goals and dreams that you have? Man, I want to, uh, it might sound stupid, but I want to start my own, like, a recovery thing. I want to do ride for recovery, you know, and get mountain bikes and just go ride trails and hit trails, you know, like call it ride for recovery. I want to help out. I want to give back, you know. It's awesome. Well, Michael, thank you so much for going out of your comfort zone to sit down with me, man.

Hopefully, I didn't make you too nervous through this. You did really well, man. You really did. And I'm glad you did it. And you showed up and you committed to it. And I'm sure our guest in the room will say the same thing, along with everyone that listens to this episode, because you crushed it.

And you're going to change a lot of lives by speaking your story. Thank you. Thank you for coming down. And thank you to Jimmy McGill for making this happen. Yeah, definitely thank you.