Locked In with Ian Bick - Ex-Young Lord on Surviving 38 Years in Prison | Jose A. Saldana

Episode Date: February 18, 2025

Jose A. Saldana opens up about his life as a former Young Lord, committing bank robberies, surviving a violent police shootout, and spending 38 years behind bars. Arrested in 1980 for the attempted murder of an NYPD sergeant during a botched robbery, Saldana was sentenced to 25 years to life and denied parole four times before finally being released in 2018 at the age of 65. Now, he is the executive director of Release Aging People in Prison (RAPP), advocating for criminal justice reform and the release of elderly prisoners serving long-term sentences. In this powerful interview, Saldana shares his journey of crime, survival, and redemption. #BankRobbery #PoliceShootout #PrisonSurvival #YoungLords #TrueCrime #ExConvict #CrimeStory #Redemption Thank you to LUCY & ORGAIN for sponsoring today’s episode: Lucy: Let’s level up your nicotine routine with Lucy.  Go to HTTP://LUCY.CO/IANBICK and use promo code (IANBICK) to get 20% off your first order. Lucy has a 30-day refund policy if you change your mind.  Orgain: For 30% off your order, head to Orgain.com/IANBICK and use code IANBICK.  Connect with Jose A. Saldana: RAAP: https://rappcampaign.com/our-people/ Hosted, Executive Produced & Edited By Ian Bick: https://www.instagram.com/ian_bick/?hl=en https://ianbick.com/ Presented by Tyson 2.0 & Wooooo Energy: https://tyson20.com/ https://woooooenergy.com/ Buy Merch: https://www.ianbick.com/shop Use code lockedin at checkout to get 20% off your order Timestamps: 00:00:00 Introduction to Jose and His Advocacy Work 00:04:13 Aspiring to be a Puerto Rican Baseball Star 00:08:10 Transition from Drug Dealing to Activism 00:12:05 Finding Puerto Rican Identity in New York 00:16:05 Learning to Make Bombs from Books 00:20:07 Becoming a Wanted Fugitive 00:24:21 Discovering the Best Vegan Protein Powder 00:28:16 Surviving the Federal Prison System 00:32:16 Impact of Incarceration on Family Dynamics 00:36:25 Developing Conscious Building Programs 00:40:31 Adjusting from Federal to State Prison Systems 00:44:41 Facing a Life Sentence: The Trial Experience 00:48:41 Transforming the Parole Board System 00:52:49 Reintegrating After 38 Years in Prison 00:56:39 Addressing Interpersonal Violence and Community Readiness 01:00:25 Transformation and Redemption in Prison 01:04:21 Discovering the World of Podcasts Powered by: Just Media House : https://www.justmediahouse.com/ Creative direction, design, assets, support by FWRD: https://www.fwrd.co Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Cash account offered by Wealthfront Brokeridge LLC member FINRA SIPC, not a bank. Jose, welcome to Lockton. Thank you to Lefty who connected me to Jeannie, who brought you here today. And I'm glad it all came about. Yeah. Thank you so much for coming. You know, it's not every day we get a true OG on the show to share his experience. I don't know about that OG stuff.

Now, can you explain to the audience? what the organization is that you work with and why it's so important, why you're here today? The organization I work with, I'm the executive director, is the release aging people in prison campaign. And this is a grassroots community organizing and advocacy group. And we advocate for the release of people who are serving long-term prison sentences. Most of them are older New Yorkers in the state system. and unfortunately some of the policies of mass incarceration has created a crisis in the New York state prison system.

People coming in with long-term prison sentences longer than ever before. And then the parole board being complicit denying parole over and over and over. And in between, we're just getting old, sicker, and in too many cases dying. So this is the public health crisis that rap is trying to correct. And how long have you been with the organization for? I got out in 2018. And I've been in January of 2018. And a couple of weeks after that, I reported for duty.

You hit the ground running. And I love that you use your lived experience. I think that's what makes the most amount of change. Individuals that use lived experience to help others. I think that does more than any politician or non-person that's never been in those shoes before can do. Did you grow up in New York? Yes. I grew up in Spanish Harlem.

We call Albatio. My dad worked in Spanish Harlem. He was a teacher. Yeah. I probably know him. Yeah, who was born in Brooklyn. He's 79 now. Michael Bick.

I don't know if the name sounds familiar. But he was an educator in Spanish Harlem schools. Okay. and eventually worked up to a principal and ran a couple schools there too. He would share some crazy stories from back in those days, the 70s and the 80s. Who did you grow up with? I grew up my parents and my siblings, brothers and sisters. We grew up on 101st Street in Spanish Harlem,

and 111st Street, 116th Street, you know, all areas that's identified as Spanish. What did your parents do for work? Well, my father was a truck driver. My mom was just a housewife. Did you guys have money growing up? No, we were very poor. My pops, you know, he was out of work often. He was drinking a lot.

So, you know, self-imposed prison, sort of. So we grew up in poverty, extreme poverty sometimes. How would you say people would describe you as a kid, young Jose? Well, you know, where I lived, there was, I guess I wouldn't use this terminology today. I guess where sex workers are building, where sex workers did their business. And for some reason, they took to me as a little boy. I was their errand boy. So I got to identify as being an errand boy for the sex workers early in my childhood.

And would you say that was a bad reputation to have? I think it didn't impact me at all. I felt comfortable with them. They were young, mostly Puerto Rican and black girls and perhaps even 16, 17 years old. They were very young. And I felt good with them. You know, I felt, you know, that they befriended me

and I appreciated the company. What were your aspirations growing up? Did you have goals, dreams for the rest of your life? I wanted to be a baseball player. My dream was to be a great Puerto Rican baseball player. I used to go with my pops to the park and hold his glove, hold his back. And that's the only dream I had coming up. I just wanted to be a baseball player, more so to please him.

But I took a loving to the sport. The sport really gave me something to dream about, other than that I had no other dream. Did you play in high school? Yes, I played all the way up until, no, I paid all over up until I went to high school. I went through a high school in the Bronx, and sadly they didn't have a baseball team.

So I played football and I ran track and field. Why do you have to go to the Bronx for school? Because my mom's move, it's an upgrade. You know, we moved to the Bronx, the better building. We were living in Sparitan's Island. It was rat infested. It was horrible.

You know, as a kid, you don't see that. But, you know, things happened. I had some experiences growing up in Spanish Island that really changed my life. And I think that was the best decision. My mom's imposterous made. We moved up to the Bronx. And being a resident of the Bronx,

I had to go to a Bronx high school at that point. What was that experience like for you? Was it better than the Spanish Harlem schools? I always went back to Spanish Harlem. Even though, you know, there was a big difference in the neighborhood, but I just felt comfortable in Spanish Harlem. And at the time, going to high school, I had another dream now.

I wanted to become a big-time drug dealer. So while I was going to high school, I was also selling drugs. What do you think flicked that switch in you to become that? Not having anything. Being poor, not having any of the things other kids had, sometimes not having enough food. And I've seen where the people in Spanish Harlem were selling dope. And they had all these fancy clothes.

Sometimes they had these cars. They had everything. And I started to want to be like them. Do you think those individuals are a bad influence on the youth in today's world just as much as it was back then? You know, when we say, you know, that people influence us, the greatest influence was the perpetual poverty that we inherited. That more than anything else made us want to hold on to anything. anything that will improve our lives. Whether it was a drug dealer that looks like he was successful or anything else.

But that was a drug dealer success was very visible to us. So it's something that we just last on to. At the time, did you feel like there was no other way to get that type of, you know, income or, you know, monetary gain that you wanted other than selling drugs? I thought that was the only realistic option for me. And that just, you know, I was a street corner. I never made big time. I was just a street corner.

And my career was cut short. I guess you can call it. I volunteered to stop selling drugs. But I don't know if you heard of the Young Laws Party. I was selling drugs when the Young Laws Party took over a church. At the time, I had no idea who they were. I had no idea whatsoever. They took over a church and they invited cops.

Looks like every cop in the city was in Spanish Harlem then. They barricade their cell for the church so I couldn't sell no drugs. And to me, I was furious at them. I said, who the hell these guys are? They're interrupting my little business here. But that's how eventually behind being politicized by members of the young law's body. That's what stopped me from being one. to become a drug dealer.

So where did you turn to when that happened? Bank robbery. In New York City? In New York City. How old were you when that happened? I was in my mid-20s, the young law. I did time. I did time before that.

I did time for weapons charges and possession of two pipe bombs in relationship to being a member of the young law's party. When I got out of prison, the party has dismantle. So I had to turn to some. Do you want nicotine, but without the hassle? Yeah, that's Lucy. Lucy is 100% nicotine completely tobacco-free and way more convenient than what you're probably used to. And here's that kicker, everyone.

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Let me know what you guys think by leaving a comment or messaging me on social media or shooting me an email. Now, let's get back into today's episode. Now, what is the party for people that don't know? When I say the party, I mean they don't know the oldest party. And who are they? Or are they? The Young-Lost Party, I can, you know, the best way to describe them for people who are not familiar with them is they're a Puerto Rican version of the Black Panther Party. They sought to address the conditions for Puerto Rican people living not only in New York, but across the country.

And the same, the same perpetual poverty, underemployment, unemployment, unemployment, uneducated. All these conditions, lack of medical care and treatment, all these conditions were being addressed. They sought to address that the rat infested buildings that we were living in, rats biting children. I grew up with rats actually biting children, infants, infants eating lead, poisoning from the paint of the buildings. So all these conditions, will just overlook. We thought nothing of it, and we thought this is just the way it is. The young laws expose all this by taking over a church. And then when they were released after they were all arrested, they were released right within a few days. And then they came around

with leafless, started talking to the people, the media now. It created a lot of media attention in this small community. And for the first time, you know, people were really aware of what was going on in Spanish Harlem. What attracted you to them? The message. I'm a Puerto Rican, and I never identify with the island of Puerto Rico because I was born in New York City. I resisted my parents telling me about how beautiful the island is because if it was that beautiful, why are we here? But I had no real identity as far as that's concerned.

I didn't have my heritage was lost to me, but they came and they gave me all. They gave me an identity that I could be proud of, a history that I could be proud of, and a heritage that I could really be a part of. And this is just for me and all the first generation Puerto Ricans that I knew that I was hanging out with, we all identify with the Young Laws Party after a few weeks, a few months of being around them, listening to them, going to the political education classes, and then understanding that selling drugs is a collaboration with people who are oppressing us. So this is why we all decided.

I was the last one to actually make the decision to stop selling drugs because I didn't have no other way of making money. But ultimately, we all made that decision, that little crew that I was a part of, that would become members of a young lost party and we would no longer sell drugs through our people. Was it normal to have someone of your age at that time join? Like someone that was young? I was 18 when I joined the Young Norris Party. We were all about the same age, 16, 17, 18 years old. That feeling you just described of wanting to be a part of that.

Do you think that relates to kids who joined gangs wanting to feel something like that, a similar feeling? I would say so more, more, you know, for us, you know, because, you know, we, we were so alienated. Not only from society, but from just, you know, just two blocks away, you know, you have, well, they would call it Black Harlem, you know, so, and then, and the other way, you had the Italians. So we were caught in the middle between the Italians and the blacks. So we were kind of alienated from just about everybody. So in wanting to be a part of something greater than ourselves, I guess that's the same reason why these kids want to be a part of a gang member. Want to be part of gang, being a gang member gives them that sense of having something that's to them, a family that they lack. And although I had a family, but like I said, my pops was in and out of our lives because they're drinking.

Some folks didn't have a father with them. They only had a mother. So being a part of a gang will give them more of like a complete family. What did your parents think that you were joining this? My pop was actually curious about it because my mom and pops, they were born and raised. They came to Puerto Rico from Puerto Rico, you know, when they were adults. After World War II, they came to Puerto Rico. So they was aware of the Puerto Rico and independence movement.

They knew who my heroes now, Don Pedro Obisocampos and Laudonia, Loli, El-Abron, they knew who these people were. You know, I was really upset that you never told me who they were. So, yeah, they were, I think they were happy in a way that I was identified with my Puerto Rican culture, but probably concerned that it would take me somewhere else. So why weapons and pipe bombs at that age? Well, you know, becoming attached to the Puerto Rican independence movement, you know, America became our enemy. The American government, not the American people, but the American government. I had no way.

I didn't really know anything about making bombs. I'm learning about making bonds by a book, you know. And in fact, the two pipe bombs that I was arrested were they were inoperable. But, you know, it didn't matter to it. It didn't matter to the state. So it was just experimenting. I was experimenting. I wanted to do something.

You know, and this, I have purpose now. You know, I just wasn't chasing a dream that was never going to be a reality, becoming a baseball player. I had purpose. I wanted to be a part of a movement that had a principal purpose and that gave me something to live for. Did you ever intend to use those on individuals? or was it going to be buildings? Buildings. No, no.

We never discussed, you know, blowing people up. It's buildings and more government. And it was just all talk. It was just plotting without any real, real intention of doing it. So after you got out for those weapons charges, what made you decide you wanted to rob a bank? And how did you go about that? Well, I wanted to, you know, inside,

I started reading more books, started becoming revolutionized, started identifying more with the Black Panther Party, started identifying more with the indigenous people's movements, Puerto Rican independence movement. And we knew that to develop the type of organization that we needed to develop, we needed money. So that's why we started army banks.

And there was a group of you that did that? It was a group of us. Did you guys have a name that you called yourselves? Well, at that time, we was all Muslims, and we called ourselves the Islamic 100. And was this a string of banks that you guys decided to hit? All national banks or? No, in Brooklyn, Queens, Bronx, Manhattan. Were any of you guys experienced in this, or were you all kind of just trying this for the first time?

There was some of us who were experiencing it. So how do you end up getting caught? Well, by accident, it was really an accident. I was already identified through surveillance as one of the people involved in bank robberies. Some of the younger people got busted, so I was identified as the leader of this group. And so I was wanted. I was a fugitive. And in 1979, I think the early 80, there was a FBI surveillance team.

Right across the street, I went to a house right across the street where a surveillance team was stationed. And that surveillance team was watching a house of somebody who they suspected, assisted a side of Shakur, who was a member of the Black Liberation Army's escape from prison. So they had that house under surveillance. The house next to it is the house. that I was going to. I had no idea about this. None whatsoever.

But I stood in the car. I was with two other people, and they went up to the house in Brooklyn. And I stood in the car because I know I'm wanted. I didn't want to come out. But something, I guess the people in there was taking too long to come back out. I got out the car, and I looked around

in the surveillance, somebody in the surveillance, identified me as somebody wanted for bank robbers. So they stormed the house that I went in. That's how I got captured. How many robberies were you wanted for at that time? 13. 13. Did you guys get serious money?

No, no. I mean, at the time, you figure that $25,000, $30,000 at the time, seemed like a lot of money. But when you have city or four people participate in the bank robbery, It's not really allowed of money. That's why you have to rob so many banks. Do you know how you first got on their radar to begin with to become a wanted fugitive? That was just from the surveillance.

Like you guys didn't wear masks or anything? We wore masks in some places. A couple of people got arrested, and that's how they found out who the others were. Why did you decide to stay in the city, even being, you know, wanted? Well, actually, I didn't stay in the city. I came back. Oh, okay. So you were successfully on the run, and then when you came back, that's what got you.

Interesting. Do you feel, did you regret coming back after that moment? I regret everything I've done in my life, so much, you know. But that's, you know, it happened. There's nothing we can do about that. But I wind up, well, before that, I have to just backtrack a little bit. we got stopped by police and there was a gun battle. And one of us was shot.

Police sergeant took a shotgun blast in the face. So I was wanted for that too. And you had shot the cop or you were just a part of it? I was there. So when you got arrested, the feds arrest you and just on the bank robbery charges. Right. And that was a federal case for the bank robbers. And then after that, do they send you the state?

While I was serving time in this federal prison system, I was indicted for attempted for a murder of a police officer. And then they came and got me by the Interstate Agreement Act and charged me. And I went to trial and I was convicted and got sentenced to 25 years to life. So the police officer survived the attack. He survived the attack. Okay. So for the bank robbers, do you go to trial for that or you took a plea?

I got 18 years for the bank robbery. After trial? Yeah. You like taking it to trial, huh? I took my case to trial. I just wasn't coping out. Was there a co-defendant on your bank robbery case or just you? No, my co-defendants got arrested before me and they copped out.

I went to trial. Why do you think you went to trial, looking back on it now? Defiance. It's a surrender. I just wasn't built that way. Do you think you got that from your dad? No. I got that from identifying with historic figures.

Who do you feel like you identified the most with? Two people that I think perhaps had the most. influence on me, Don't Pedro Bisa Campos, who was the leader of the Puerto Rican Nationalist Party and Malcolm X. Why those two specifically? Because the way they dealt with the people, how they related to the people, how they was able to talk to people, meet them where they were, so that they could have an understanding of the message.

And particularly, Don Pedro Bisa Campos, which used to more, you know, Malcolm X, mobilize people in groups, big crowds. His message was pretty clear. Don't Pedro Obiso Campo's message was a one-on-one. He went from door to door, house to house, talking to the people and listening to the people, understanding their concerns, their interests, their desires. And sometimes they weren't in alignment with his, and that was okay. He was still able to relate to the people.

What year did you step foot inside federal prison? 1980. And how old were you at that time? I think I was 29 or 30. You know that feeling when you finally find something that just works? That's exactly how I felt when I first discovered Oregon years ago while I was working at Whole Foods. And I've been using it ever since. I've tried a ton of protein powder, shakes, and bars over the years.

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Because that was a whole different world back then in the federal system. It was, I was kind of prepared for it because I heard so much about the system. And it was almost a war zone. Why do you say war zone? You know, you're shipped across the country. It's not like you're with the people you grew up with. You got homeboys there.

Basically, you're on your own. And you have to just step up. not depending on anybody. Yeah, it was, it was, the state system was a little different. You couldn't, in the federal system when I was there, one thing I said about there was a lot of respect because you couldn't say things to people and think you're not going to be held accountable.

That's the difference. between the state at that time. Now I think they both probably the same. But back then, you had to watch what you said when you're dealing with somebody. You also have to be on point. I got into a few scuffles when I was in the federal prison system.

But one thing I learned early is to be super aggressive, anticipate, and don't hesitate. And that's how I survive in the federal system. Were there a lot of politics, like with cars, gangs or anything during that time? Not then, because the biggest gang was the D.C. guys. You know, they had numbers. The more out west you win, you had the Chicano's.

Midwest, you had, you know, like the Chicago gangs, you know, but they wanted us. They didn't dominate the system the way. the people from D.C., because they basically had the numbers wherever you went. How many different federal prisons did you go to? Atlanta. Atlanta,

Belmont Worth, Terry Hope, Marion, and Lewisburg. And these were all USPs? Right, federal penitentiaries. Why did they move you around so much? I've got to ask them. No, I mean, you know, listen, I did my time tough. I didn't do no calm time.

You know, I've been a few night fights. I got stabbed. I did some stabbing. I was always trying to get out. So I've been charged with an attempt to escape a couple of times. Attempted escape? Yeah, you know, not attempt to escape in effect that they caught me outside the walls of a sudden. But, you know, the apparatus, the paraphernator for escape, you know.

stuff like that. You always go out swinging, huh? Well, I just, you know, early childhood experiences, you know, left impacts on me. Now, when you first started serving your federal sentence, you had no idea you were going to get hit with an indictment for the 25th.

I knew what was coming now. Oh, you did? Yeah. So was your mindset just like, I'm going to be in here for the rest of my life? Exactly. That's exactly how I live in the federal prison system. that this is it.

I'm not going nowhere. I don't have to behave a certain way I do what the hell I want when I want. So do you think if you knew there would be an opportunity to get out, you would have done your time differently? Oh, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. But, you know, I was, I knew I had a life sentence for New York. So I didn't care about when I left the federal system or not.

What do you think of life sentences? Outside of, you know, my own experience, What really impacted my thinking to get involved in this work, because it wasn't until I came to the state system that I started really looking at this, the harshness of, remember, I was doing 18 years in the federal system. I wasn't doing life. Now I'm doing a life sentence. But I think the first time I really started looking at what a life sentence really does to a person,

to a family. I was in a visiting room. My youngest daughter I just started going to college. She came to visit me. And you know, when you go to, you're in prison, you know, you go into the visiting room and you see somebody sitting

in your, where you're supposed to be with your family, that's a condo violation. So that's what I saw. And the guy got up. went to his, where he was, where his family, wait to wait for his family. And I asked my daughter,

who's that guy? And she says, you don't remember him? I said, no. I'm thinking she probably knows him from the hood, you know, from where she's living. She said, that's so-and-so son. And that kid was someone who the mother was bringing up to see his dad.

And now he's wearing greens and the mother's coming to visit him. Now, when I talked to the kid, I was upset because, you know, that's a kind of violation for you to talk to my visit without me being there. But when I talked to this kid, I found out that, you know, I knew his pops. And he's doing a life sentence also. And I thought about that. I went back to myself saying, damn, if dad's doing life and he's doing life. and the mother is visiting both of them.

Was it hard to have those conversations with your children when they came to visit you? My children was, you know, because when they always ask you, Dad, when you're coming home, I would always say soon, very soon. Because I'm litigating. I'm also, you know, doing a litigator. But there came a point when they was growing up, You know, they didn't want to hear that anymore. I remember one of my, I think it was my oldest daughter, said,

Dad, don't tell me soon. Because soon means never. And then, you know, the things that your children tell you, you know, when they come, when they're able to come visit you, my youngest daughter came to visit me one day. She was with her mother, but her mother went off to the bending machine. And I said, something was wrong with her. I said, what's wrong?

And then she just put her head on my shoulder. I said, okay, she's going to tell me when she's ready. And then she told me that I grew up resenting you. I said, I can't remember a time where I didn't resent you. I said, why? Because you were never there for me. So that conversation stays with me. I was never there for her.

You know, so now I'm really understanding the impact that my incarceration, first you blame the state. You're saying the state is responsible for my kids acting this way. But then you grow up out of there. You start saying, wait a minute, man, what part did I pay in this? And then you start taking responsibility.

And that's a part of my growth. You know, my kids, they suffer to the point where they made a pack that they would not have children. for fear that their children will go through what they went through. You know, for kids to do that, that's impactful. So that helped me grow. That helped me on this.

And we're talking about a time when children with incarcerated parents, that was not considered to be an adverse childhood experience. It is now. Fortunately, it is now, and it's being addressed. but back in the 80s, it wasn't considered that. So children was going through this trauma, this emotional psychological trauma, and no one understood what they were going through.

Not even the fathers, not even the mothers. It took us some time to understand that. So we started, you know, looking at that, started talking to my comrades inside. I said, listen, man, you know, this. They said, yo, man, I'm experiencing the same thing. So we started taking, you know, developing an approach to understanding this whole thing. And from these discussions, we develop programs, conscious building programs, you know, pathways to empower ourselves,

give us knowledge as to what we're really dealing with here and what role we played in it. And I think that was important for us to understand the role that we played in this whole thing that impacted. not only us, but all our children and grandchildren. So this is the path that my growth took, and this is why I'm the person I am today. How do you, if ever, make peace with your kids, with your grandchildren? It's tough. It's tough because even now, you know, you can't make up for 38 years.

You can't, there's not something you can do. You know, I didn't try. to make up for this time. The time, it is what it is. All I can do is try to mend and reconcile and try to, you know, develop a relationship with adults now, not children, adults.

It's not smooth. You know, it has its ups and downs. You know, my oldest son is okay to the point where he can talk about what he experienced growing up. My youngest daughter, she doesn't want to talk about it. She just wants to move on without having to address what she went through.

So they're all different. I got four kids, two daughters and two sons. So it's all different in trying to relate. But, you know, we have our ups and down still. You know, sometimes, you know, you could see that they're going back to, you know, when there was so much uncertainties in their lives. and in a sense all of them moved on, you know, two of them went to college. The two boys, the oldest boys, he's doing pretty good.

He's a manager of a company. He's doing pretty good. The two girls are doing okay too. While you're in federal prison, what's an experience that you witness that you'll never forget? Well, that was ambush. I mean, it was, they thought it was an ambush. I anticipated it. You know, I got into a scuffle with some D.C. dudes.

I knew that I got transferred whenever I go to the joint I go to, I know I got to be prepared to deal with them. So, I was ambush. That's why I got hitting the shoulder in the back. But I was prepared. And that taught me that being prepared saved my life. So I would never be unprepared. And that's just how you got to live.

You know, once you made that first initial step in one direction, there's no turning back. So I learned just from my experiences that when we're dealing with people who the only thing they understand really, really understand is violence, then you got to bring pure violence. Was it hard being on guard in that manner playing the defensive mode? all those years and then coming out of prison and, you know, you don't have to be that way? It's still a good adjustment. Even now, I tell people, you know, worst-case scenario, that's how I think.

Whenever any confrontation, it doesn't matter because in prison, something small could be big in a second. So any small concentration in my analysis is worst-case scenario first. And it's hard to get away from that because that's how I survived. You know, I survived because I think about the worst-case scenario before I do anything else and address it from that perspective.

It's still, I'm still, even six years, I'm still trying to, you know, not think that way, but it's difficult. How many years were you in the feds for before the transfer? Eight years in the feds, 30 in the state. Were you worried about going to the state level based on things you had heard? at the time? No. When I went into the state from the feds,

I was a different person. The state, you know, it took a little adjustment because you hear people talking to themselves among their self in a way that would invite death in the federal system. So it took a little bit of adjusting to know that the rule are different here.

The culture is a little different here. You couldn't invite somebody in the federal prison system to your private parts. Just couldn't. Not without either killing the person or you getting killed. That's just, that's a card of violation in the federal prison system.

Back then, when I came to the state, I heard it all day long. I said, wow. So it's different. And in this state, you know, People say, you know, razor tags, you know, you never pick up a razor with somebody in the federal prison system. I mean, people laugh at you.

You came at them with a razor. People got machetes, axes in the federal prison system. That's where they come with. And you come with a razor? It's a different culture. Why do you think it's so different? I don't know. I really don't know.

I think because one thing is that you realize that you don't have people you grew up with for the most part. You know, you're in places where you've never been. So you know you have to deal with things differently. And you have to be, whenever I learned, you have to be decisive. When if you go one way, be decisive about it and no turning back. I think that's different than the state. You got more people rolling with you in the state. How did the correctional officers treat you

because you harm someone in law enforcement? I was always placed on high security, everywhere I went. I never travel with a big bus, a band of people. I've always traveled by myself. Ready or not, summer is coming, and Wayfair's Memorial Day clearance is on now. Right now through May 25th, get up to 70% off everything home at Wayfair.

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Not necessarily in the state or the feds. It's just that I was placed on high security wherever I went. Now in the state, what kind of yard did you go to? Was it locked down most of the day? Oh, the state, no. You know, it was more open in the federal prison system. The state is not as open. I mean, I had more time to myself in the federal prison system.

I didn't really have to work You know Prisons were bigger The state You know You got all this Attica The first place I went to was Attica

And it was like four prisons in one Little yard For each block So it's a little different What was it like going to trial Facing a life sentence If you lost Well I was off for the cop-out

A 15-year cop-out but guaranteed 70. I wouldn't take it. Do you wish you took it looking back on it? Not really. I don't, you know, I try not to really go back and wish for things different. I knew why I didn't take it.

I didn't take it because, you know, I wasn't going to admit to something they said. It didn't happen that way. It wasn't an ambush. We didn't ambush the cops. They said we ambushed them. They said we opened fire on them. That didn't happen that way.

They jumped out their car with guns blazing. They just didn't expect we turned fire. So after you got convicted, what did the judge exactly sentenced to you two? 25 years to life. And what does that mean? That I will serve 25. And he said he wished he could give me more. So that means you're not eligible for parole until after 5 years.

Okay. And what are the odds at that point in your mind that you can even get out if it's 20? 25 to life. Especially when the judge says he wish he can give me more. He said that there was a law out at that time that he says, passed this law so that people I sell down and never get out of prison. How did that make you feel when he said that? I kind of knew what he was trying to say.

He was trying to say that I'm going to die in prison. When does that sit in? That could be a reality, or did it never sit in? It's set in almost immediately. knew I've seen these old heads in the prison, see how long they've been in prison, seeing people die early in their 50s. I knew then that, you know, it came a point even during my parole hearings that I kind of said, you know, this is it.

This is probably here for me. I even told a parole commissioner that. At that point, I was fully conscious. I had principles that I hold on to today. And I told that parole commissioner, who happens to be the chair of the New York State Prolboro, when the hearing first started, I said, listen, I just want to make a statement before you start this hearing. He says, y'all, I can't. There's nothing I can do to convince you to let me go.

You got the power to just keep on denying me, deny me, deny me. He said, but I got one power. I said, the one power I have is that I'm going to. going to choose to die an honorable man where there's in a prison cell with my family. Nothing you can do about that. Now, let's go on with this hearing. They deny me. But that same commissioner wrote me a letter.

While she was the chair of the New York State Commissioner, when she got to see me out here, she says, for being, in the letter, she said, for being a part of that panel that denied you at that time, I was wrong. And you have lived to be to die an honorable man. Then and now. And I apologize for being wrong. So how many times did it take you through parole five times?

Five times. What made it so special about the fifth one that they decided to let you go? A parole commissioner, a newly appointed parole commissioner can they encourage a pyro from a social work background, not law enforcement. that dominated the New York State Pro-Bow War at the time. A social worker appointed by Coma because rap exposed the parole bar's bigotry of racism and inappropriate comments joined parole hearings. They used the actual parole hearings and presented the evidence in a report to the governor. And when these parole commissioners who had law enforcement background,

when their time expired, they used the appointed for six years. terms. Expired, he did not reappoint them as they customarily do. Instead, he appointed six new commissioners from a diversified background, social worker, member of the clergy, teacher, and one of these newly appointed social commissioners with a social service background was the lead commissioner in my case when I appeared. And she asked me one question about the crime I committee, 1979. just like they always do, they open up with this.

And then she says, I thought, here we go again. I said, I told exactly what happened, according to their version, and said, let's talk about what you've done the last 38 years of your life. Usually these here is last 10, 8 minutes, this one lasted 45 minutes, talking about what I've done the last 38 years of my life. and she released me. And rap was responsible for her being on the parole board. Did you know what rap was at the time?

Yeah. How did you find out about them? Because my wife actually was working with rap in the early stages when it was first form. She somehow met one of the founders. And she was telling me about rap. So I was already aware, in fact, rap wrote letters for me, supporting my release. When you're serving that much time, does the violence ever get old?

Does the doing the life in prison aspect of it get old where you're like, I don't want to do this? I want to do something else. What do you mean? In regards to like maybe doing programs or not running with prison politics or anything like that, does that get old? I have long, I have long, um, discus. discarded that jailhouse mentality, the street mentality. At this point in my life, you know, maybe for the last, as my kids were growing older and I've seen the hurt, seeing the harm, I started developing to a different person.

I started wanting to get out of prison, you know, so that I could help, so I could be there for them. So at this point, I was already, and I didn't care too much about the jailhouse politics, I didn't care too much about the organizations. I was already creating something for myself and others who was thinking like me, who was trying to find a place, you know, for themselves. So we was coming together as often as we can in the yard, in the gym, in the blocks, having these long discussions of months, years, conceptualizing our experiences, putting things on paper,

and then trying to develop courses and seminars and workshops, you know, to help ourselves and each other on how we're going to get out this mess. You know, we're taking responsibility for the role we play. So now where do we go from here? how do we help our families out there and how do we help each other out here? Some of us are not going to make it. We realize that some of us are going to die in prison,

but some of us are all going to make it. What are we going to do? Those who make it, what are they going to do to try to change these conditions for us? So I already had a vision of what I wanted to do. And it was clear to me that one thing I knew for sure. I didn't know that I was going to be the director of rap. I knew I was going to be involved with rap.

I had no idea that I was going to be the director. It was 10 months after I got out. But one thing I knew when I walked out of prison that the men who helped me become the man I am today, those who helped me along this journey, that I was not going to forget those who had already died, and I was not going to forget those that are still alive and then I'm leaving behind.

When you got granted parole, were you afraid of going back into the free world after, you know, serving 38 years inside? What was it kind of like your mindset? I wasn't afraid. I was, you know, it was challenging. You know, everything was challenging. You know, getting on the subway was challenging. I'm not accustomed to people pushing up on me. You know, that, you know, that didn't make me feel good.

I had to get used to that again. You know, you keep, you get, all in decades, you keep people at arms distance. Now you've got all these people rubbing up on you. So I had to get adjusted to that. I had to get adjusted to walking past military cops, you know, without having that tense feeling. They're just about to pull me over. everything, you know, I'm thinking that they're going to violate me for any little thing, you know, so it took a little bit of psychological and emotional adjustment.

But I was on a mission. I knew that I had to do something. Rap was responsible for me to get out because they were responsible putting that commissioner who released me. So I had an obligation to do something for those. I left behind. And I took that out. I didn't mention, I didn't tell anybody. I didn't make no promises like other people

made promises to me. But I took that obligation serious. I said, I'm going to do something. I don't know what it is yet, but I'm going to do something to help others get out. Too many of us died in prison at a young age. And I knew that I just couldn't live on. I'm not going to go on with my life

without being at least satisfied that I tried. Do you come across a lot of people that don't believe in giving you a second chance? Absolutely. How do you address that? We have discussions. You know, we advocate for people who committed serious violent crimes. We advocate for their release. And we, you know, we advocate that is an injustice that black and brown people are disproportionately in prison doing more time.

deny parole more often than the white counterparts. The racial disparities is pretty clear. So we try to address these issues. Mass incarceration is real. What it did to families is devastating. You know, my family is probably better off than a lot of other families that were hit harder. So these things are real for us.

But we also know that, The same people who are impacted by mass incarceration and the legal system are also impacted by interpersonal violence in our communities. That's just a reality. So when we talk about people who committed murder to be released and return back to their families because they're community ready, you know, we get, well, what about the person who killed my son? We get that.

We get that a lot. And all we can do is continue the conversation with them. We show them that we are the only ones that are really concerned about this. The state used you to convict somebody and give them a life sentence. So another family lost a son to the system, but they don't care none about you as a mother. They don't care about how you're feeling. They don't care about the trauma that you will forever live.

But we do because we create a program so that those who are released will be in our community to stop this interpersonal. cycle of violence in our communities. They're not doing that. We're doing that. We develop that concept of credible messenger. We developed the concept of violence interrupts, not the state,

not the New York City Police Department. We did that because we want to get back and we're concerned about what's happening in our communities. My grandchildren are living in our communities. So we have this conversation that we don't always win.

But we are persuading the community, people in our communities. The majority of the people in our communities do support that people who are community ready should not languishing prisons until they die. Yeah, that's very true what you said about how the prosecution and law enforcement does use the victim for their advantage in these cases and then kind of pushes them to the side once it's over with. And only calls on them when the parole hearing comes up again.

Now they got to relive that whole trauma. And forgiveness, I guess, is a big part of this, too, if the person's willing to forgive and how fresh it is. And I do believe, like, time is a big healer too. Is the person that committed the crime when they're 17, 18, 19, 30 years ago, the same person, you know, that they are today, you know, that it poses a lot of questions. And it really makes you think about we as humans as a whole.

And we, you know, we, I've seen the kids come in, you know, when they said these black and brown kids were super predators, I seen them come in with 50, 60, 75 years to life, 16, 17, 17 years old. And I left them in there. They're still in there. 16, 17 years old. 40 years later, they're still in there

because they were labeled super predators and got extra time, enhanced punishment. And if this was happening to white kids, going into the prison system with this. kind of numbers, death by incarceration centers, at that scale, there will be mass outraged in our society. But because they're black and brown, nobody cares. Did you ever see a younger version of yourself coming through the prison doors?

All the times. How did that affect it when you saw that? You know, I see people and I say, this guy could have been my son. So just look at him. We're able to reach some. We developed the programs. We invited them to these programs. you were able to reach them.

And this is why, you know, family members come to us as a last resort. You know, we have a sister who her brother sent her to me. Her brother sent her to me because I raised her brother when he came in at 16 years old. 35 years later, he's still there. He lost hope. He finally said, why don't you go see rap? See that brother, Jose Humza? tell them I sent you.

You know, they changed. You know, yeah, they were crazy, wow, kids. But 30 years later, some of them are jailhouse lawyers. Some of them are mad as to get into college. Some of them wrote books. Some of them never had anything. Some of them never had a father. the only father figure they had

was somebody in prison who cared about them. I mean, how do you keep somebody like that in prison? So we have their families telling their stories. We have, they said, she went to the UN speaking about her brother's case, pleading with the UN to declare that these sentences on these kids is a human rights violation. So, you know, we, you know, and they see it. You know, one thing I say, these kids, they're no longer kids.

But because we have become so visible, they see, man, there. The programs that I was developing with these other guys, there's a long waiting list now. Everybody wants to get into these programs. We gave them hope. What's one piece of advice you want people to take away from your story? the lesson that you want to be told? That a sentence should never be permanent.

You can't throw human beings away. You give them an opportunity to grow to become better human beings. And it happens more than anything else happens in prisons. You have stabbing in prison. You have murders in prisons. You have people OD in prison. But the one thing that happens more than anything else combined

is people are growing. they're developing, they're becoming better human beings. And sometimes, more often than not, they're doing it without any reward. My mentors, there was no reward in it for them. They knew they were going to die in prison, but yet they still did it. So this is what you, you have people who have served as life coaches, professors, who do it, and they do it to an entire generation. without any hope for a reward.

So that shows you that human beings can become better human beings than those even in the street. I think the most socially civic-minded human beings in our communities are forming incarcerated people because they know they're responsible, in part, for the conditions in their community, and they take that responsibility serious.

It's almost sacred to us that we have the obligations to help repair harm. and this is what we're committed to. No matter what else we do in life, we have an obligation to help we pay harm because we take responsibility for some of this. And now we have to hold the state also accountable for doing what they should do.

Jose, thank you so much for coming on the show today. I appreciate you trusting me to interview you and sit down with me today. And I love what you guys are doing. And I'm happy I could be a part of it by sharing your story. Thank you. You probably never expected you'd be sitting down on a podcast while you're in prison. Not like this, no, definitely not.

It's definitely something different. I didn't even know a podcast existed. It's okay. I didn't either until a few years ago. But I'm glad we got to do this. And thank you again to Jeannie for connecting us. Thank you.