Locked In with Ian Bick - Exposing The Realities Of The Criminal Justice Sytem | Thomas Leaf

Episode Date: February 11, 2024

Thomas Leaf, a dedicated Connecticut public defender, brings a unique perspective to our discussion on the criminal justice system. In this enlightening and thought-provoking conversation, we'll explore his motivations for choosing the path of a public defender over private practice, gain insight into the realities of his role, and delve into the crucial improvements needed within the criminal justice system and more. It promises to be an eye-opening and insightful discussion with an active public defender. Hosted, Executive Produced & Edited By Ian Bick: https://www.instagram.com/ian_bick/?hl=en https://ianbick.com/ Big thanks to Find A Great Attorney for sponsoring this episode. If you are injured anywhere in the country, visit https://findagreatattorney.com, a free service that can find you one of the best lawyers in your area. You focus on getting better and they’ll do the rest. Connect with Thomas Leaf: https://www.linkedin.com/in/thomasleaf Creative direction, design, assets, support by FWRD: https://www.fwrd.co Buy Merch: https://lockedinbrand.com Use code lockedin at checkout to get 20% off your order Timestamps: 00:00:00 - Intro 00:04:40 - My Father's Career Journey 00:09:41 - A Shift in Career Path 00:14:14 - Remembering an Amazing Human Being 00:18:53 - The Burden of Being Accused of a Crime 00:23:21 - The Impact of Incarceration and Finding Redemption 00:28:12 - Humanizing Each Individual 00:32:53 - Evolving as a Human Being 00:37:26 - The Importance of Leaving a Place Better Than How You Found It 00:41:51 - The Legal System in Connecticut 00:45:57 - The Importance of Credibility and Competence in Law 00:50:32 - Conflict of Interests in Legal Representation 00:54:56 - Challenges in the Criminal Justice System 00:59:43 - The Frustrations of Helping Others 01:04:32 - Following My Own Path 01:09:07 - Being a Compassionate Lawyer 01:13:46 - The Vulnerability of Being an Influencer 01:18:43 - Giving a Voice to the Voiceless 01:23:13 - The Rise of Grifters in the Influencer Space 01:27:41 - Incentivizing Behavior and Access to Resources 01:32:16 - Providing for the Underprivileged Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Graham and Hemmy are registered trademarks of FCAUS LLC. Like we're acculturated to believe that if you're accused of a crime, that like you're the accused, you're a defendant. Like you're not Ian. You're not Thomas. You're just like, like you're a crime, you know. And something that like I always ask, you know, in jury selection is do you think that just because someone got arrested that they must have done something wrong? Because like growing up, I remember like watching TV shows like cops. and like

or like law and order and like everyone like all the TV shows all the media everything is all centered around like prosecuting people and of course

the guy who's being arrested who's being you know the guy that iced tea arrested in SVU of course he's like he's a terrible guy and like is he going to get

no he's never going to they're never going to get away with it because we're all bad guys and kind of like by extension we start to think that everyone is accused of a crime is somehow bad. And I just don't think that's the case.

Today I'm absolutely honored to welcome Thomas Leif, a dedicated Connecticut public defender to our show. Thomas brings a unique perspective to our discussion on the criminal. USAA knows dynamic duos can save the day, like superheroes and sidekicks or auto and home insurance. With USAA, you can bundle your auto and home and save up to 10%. Tap the banner to learn more and get a quote at USAA. www.com slash bundle. Restrictions apply.

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Terms apply. In this enlightening and thought-provoking conversation, we'll explore his motivations for choosing the path of a public defender over private practice, gain insight into the realities of his role, and delve into the crucial improvements needed within the criminal justice system and more. It promises to be an eye-opening and insightful discussion with an active public defender. This episode is brought to you by my friends over our. at find a great attorney.com.

If you are injured anywhere in the country, just visit find a great attorney.com, a free service that can find you one of the best lawyers in your area. You focus on getting better, and they'll do the rest. Big thank you to find a great attorney.com for sponsoring this episode.

And guys, if you enjoy the locked in podcast, remember to please leave us a review on Apple or Spotify and also subscribe to the Ian Bick YouTube channel. It does us wonders and help boost the show out to more people. Now, I hope you guys sit back, relax, and get ready to lock in with Thomas Leaf. Thomas, welcome to locked in, man. It's a pleasure to have you.

You're our first public defender on the show. I'm looking forward to this. I got some great questions. I think it's going to be a really thought-provoking conversation. And, you know, when you walked in here a couple weeks ago, I think I definitely recognized you from when I used to go through the court system. Because, you know, you see the same lawyers, prosecutors at that courthouse in Danbury all the time.

So I knew you looked familiar. I think it's something along those lines. I think, first of all, thank you for having me on. It's funny, like, I know a lot of people

in the criminal defense bar who are, like, you would consider, like, just superstar lawyers. And I never would even imagine myself anywhere near that bracket.

I just think of myself as just like, I go to work, I have a job, and I'm just trying to do the best I can. But, Like before we get started, I just have to say I am still a member of the public defender division. But I just want to make sure it's clear that like I'm here just as like speaking for myself.

I'm not here as a representative of anyone. You know, just so like I'm not here as a representative of the Connecticut Public Defender Division. But I've been, I guess what you would call a career public defender for going on. Let's see. I've been in division now for like 12 years now. It's virtually my entire career has been criminal defense law. I had a small time where I was in private practice, did some civil law stuff, but my entire career has basically been centered around criminal defense, particularly criminal defense for indigent clients, which is, you know, public defender work. So I don't know where we want to get started.

Let's start from the top. How do you even get into law? How do you become a lawyer? So I didn't know I wanted to be a lawyer until my second year of law school, which is a funny thing to say. People always kind of look at me funny. So my father is an attorney. He was a lawyer, and he's kind of like elder statesman status in the New Haven County Bar Association. Like, everyone knows my dad, Freddie the Leaf.

Like he's been doing, he's a general practitioner. He's been working on his own for now, geez, I mean, for as long as I've been alive. But he got his start. He went to law school through ROTC and was stationed in the Army as a jaguar. He was stationed in Korea. That's where he met my mom. I always joke and say that I'm a product of American foreign policy because my dad was stationed in Korea.

And then he was stationed in Germany where he worked both on the prosecutorial side and on the defense side. Like in the Army, it's kind of like it's like after you finish like a rotation, they'll like flip you. They'll be like, you're like, all right, this rotation you're going to be a prosecutor.

Next rotation, you're going to be a defense lawyer. So my father, when he started his career in the military, he was literally just given a stack of files and said, okay, you're going to trial on these 10 files in three hours. Have fun. And that was like the UCMJ criminal military justice kind of system, which is like totally different than the civil system, like, or the civilian system, if you will. My sister was born when he was stationed in Nernberg and Bomberg, Germany, came back from there and worked for the city of New Haven as a corporation council, was partnered a few times, worked for a couple different firms. But as far as I can remember, my memory of my father's always been that he's been a sole practitioner, which is really rare these days. You don't see too many guys like him who have like a general kind of purpose, like if you need a will. If you get a DUI, if you got into a car accident.

Like, Freddy could help you out in all of these different things. So I had an older sister, and we can get into her, if you like to. But for a while as a kid, it was kind of like this whole thing that my sister was going to go to law school and join my dad. It would be leaf and leaf. Like, that was like their dream. And I was like, you guys are crazy. Like, being a lawyer, it sounds really lame. You got to wear a suit every day.

It doesn't look like any fun. Who wants to go to law school? I just was like for the longest time for my entire childhood. And people to this day still tell me that I should have gone to art school. It's like, you know, I don't know. I don't know how to respond to him. It's like, well, it's a little bit late for that. But, you know, and it kind of got reversed where my sister was the one who became an artist.

until she passed away in this like freak accident when I was 20. And then when I was going, I was in college when this happened, and I was on track to becoming a high school teacher. And I was still shying away from the idea of going out and going to like going to art school and pursuing what, like, you know, everyone like will always say, like, if there's anything anyone ever associated with me growing up, it was a i always carried a sketchbook ever where i went and even to this day like it's in my car like i carry a sketchbook everywhere i go and um you know i'll go to a coffee shop draw and that's just something

that's always been a part of who i am it's like one of like my like happy places um you know and when teaching didn't work out like because i just i wasn't happy like i felt good about the work because i was teaching at wilbercross high school and the kids were awesome Like, I love the kids. Like, they were, they made me feel good about what I, about what I was doing. But I just didn't feel accomplished or good at it. Like, I just didn't feel like I was a good teacher. And that's a career where if you are not 110% into it, you got to get out.

You got to make room for someone else who is. It's not fair to the kids. It's not like, you're not, like you, especially if you're aware of that. So it's funny. I told you the story off camera. When I was teaching, I had a student whose father was a police officer who my father knew for a very long time. And his name's Billy White. And everyone knows who Billy.

And Billy just passed away, I think, maybe about a year or two ago. And he was like a complicated guy, if you look into him. Like he was a really, he's like kind of like local celebrity kind of hero in the New Haven area. but he got federally indicted for you know corruption and and for doing things that he wasn't supposed to be doing but Billy knew me and he knew my father and one of his kids was a student of mine who I believe is a police officer now great kid like you know she was one of my favorite students and I remember her to this day she was always very like a good nature good head on her shoulder smart kid um and

I remember talking to Billy about it. I was like, Billy, you know, I don't think teachings for me, I'm thinking about becoming a cop. And he's like, absolutely.

Come on, like, you know, like you'll just put your paperwork in. Your, New Haven, will hire you. I'll,

like, I'll vouch for you. You're good to go. Two, three weeks later, he gets federally indicted. Oh, wow.

That was quite, and I was like, and my father looked at me, he was like, maybe this is a sign that maybe going into law enforcement's not for you. And I was like,

yeah, he's like, why don't you go to, ever considered going to law school? And I was like, I guess I just didn't know what to do. I had no direction. So it's like, you know, I, I ended up going to Quinnipiac for law school. And I originally went to law school thinking that I was going to become a prosecutor. Like that was my initial, like, idea. Like, all right, I don't want to be a, I don't want to be a police officer. I'm going to be a prosecutor. And my father was kind of like, all right, that's what, like, you know, he always,

Fred always said to me, he always said to me, I'm not here to make your decisions. I'm here to support them. And that's something I say to my son to this day. I'm not here to decide anything for you. I'm just here to like decide, like whatever makes you happy, whatever thing you want to, whatever you want to go, whatever direction you want to go in. Like, I want to do whatever I can to help enable that for you. So I interned in the state's attorney's office.

and it was a very good experience, but I knew immediately that I was not built for that kind of work. I was just like, yeah, no, this is not where I belong. This is, I'm glad I did this because I realized that my outlook, you know, the way I see things, just didn't, I would not have made an effective state's attorney. And I don't think I would have been happy doing that job either. So that brought me to interning in the public defender's office over in New Haven J.D.

Can I like it divides their court system into, it's a bifurcated system. So you have geographic area courts and you have judicial district courts. So like Danbury is a combined JD GA and we don't have like separate GAs in this area. New Haven, however, does. So like New Haven J.D covers Meriden GA7 and it also covers. New Haven GA 23, which used to be like a couple of different like geographic areas, but it's basically like New Haven County. So JD court is like or high court or part A in the criminal side of things you'll hear it referred to as part A. That's where like all the serious felonies are.

So I was interning in the part A office in New Haven. And that's where I met a guy named Tom O'Mon. Tom Ollman is perhaps like one of my biggest inspirations next to my dad as an attorney. He is, you know, it's if you talk about Tom Olin in criminal defense circles in the land, everyone knew who Tom was. And again, this is a guy who was, like, I knew him since I was a little kid. because I grew up in the same neighborhood in Westville. Like I grew up in Westville, the Westville section of New Haven, which is like a pretty like upper middle class affluent, you know, neighborhood. Like I grew up like in like a very like a fairly wealthy family.

Like I was very lucky, very fortunate growing up. And Tom, I don't know if you're familiar with him or not. Have you ever seen a picture of him? But he has this like everyone knows, knows him because he had, he had the way he wore his beard. It was like this like chinchrap kind of a blinking kind of stuff. style beard, right? And I always, like, knew him in the neighbor, but I never, I didn't know him. I didn't know what he did until I actually interned in his office and got to see him work. And that's

where I was like, this is the kind, this is where I belong. Like, it took a while for me to figure out, but this is doing this kind of work, working with indigent clients, you know, standing up for people that no one else wants to stand up for, was something that I was like, that is something I can get excited about. That is something that I feel good to do. To me, it's a privilege to do it. And he was a tremendous practitioner in the courtroom. But he was also just like what he was probably best known for.

And I speak him in the past tense because he tragically passed away right after he retired. It was like one of those things were like, this was a guy who worked on the Cheshire Home Invasion case. This is a guy who has done just tons. like before Connecticut abolished a death penalty, he was handling like all the serious capital cases in New Haven, in the New Haven J.D. Had done the job for a very long time. Excuse me.

He started off, I think, as an investigator and like, you know, paid his way through law school. And that was a guy who like, from the very beginning, from the very outset, he was going to do public defender work. And I just thought he was an amazing human being. everyone in that office, all the lawyers in the office. He had attracted really good professional attorneys who were excellent practitioners, but also excellent human beings.

I think one of the things that I learned from him was that as important as it is to represent your client and make sure that their rights are being respected, that the state's being held to their burden. And one of the most important things for him was to make sure that everyone saw his client, no matter what they're accused of, as a human being with dignity. And that was one of the most important lessons I learned from him. And that's something I take with me. Like, that's something I, like, I have, like, a photograph of him from his memorial service, like next to my, it's like up there with, like, my family pictures in my office.

So I interned for him. and that's where I was like, you know, I don't want to be a lawyer. I want to be a public defender. You know, like if I wasn't in public defender services, if I wasn't doing criminal defense work for indigent clients, I probably wouldn't be in law. I probably would be in a completely different sector doing something else.

Because that's just how I feel about the job. You know, to me it's something that I'm immensely proud of. and it's something I feel good about. And when I first started, I had these, like, ideas, like, oh, I'm going to get on the Capitol Defense unit. I'm going to do all these, like, serious cases, and I'm going to do all these, like, I want, like, you know,

give me, like, all, like, you know, like, you know, the, you know, the really big, huge, you know, cases that get headlines and things like. Now, I, like, my, I think where I were, where I think you, I mean, I don't want to act like there's, a value judgment here that like some cases are better than others. But one of the things I still get the such tremendous fulfillment though is just helping like a regular person get back on their feet.

You know, like when I think like there was one of your prior prior guests, I forget her name, but she was a social worker. The clinical psychologist. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. She was great. She worked at a hospital, I believe, or a prison hospital. Yeah. She worked at a couple juvenile and. mental health ones and a few. So the way she described her clients, I was like,

those are the people that I work with. You know, those are the people that, like, that, you know, that's, that's like,

you know, like, you know, I, I really, what she said about, like, these people who are,

come from, from places where, like, just everything is stacked against them. You know, and everything is like, they're, like,

you know, I was born, with so many privileges, right? I was born into a home where I didn't have to worry about where my next meal was coming from. I didn't have to worry about whether or not, you know, my parents had too much to drink that day. I didn't have to worry about any, like, I was safe, I was well cared for, I was loved, that was supported.

And not only that, I was told that I was like constantly, I was, it was reinforced that I was worthy. Like I was a worthy person. Like I was someone that meant something. And I think one of the things that I struggle that I see people in this sector and that the, you know, and it, and it kind of like, if you zoom out and look at like the criminal defense system or criminal law system, you know, as a whole, you know, we can get into like different kind of like, you know, I don't know. what's the word I'm looking for? It's like, like we're acculturated to believe that if you're accused of a crime,

that like you're the accused, you're a defendant. Like, you're not Ian. You're not Thomas. You're just like, like you're a crime. You know?

And something that like I always ask, you know, in jury selection is do you think that just because someone got arrested that they must have done something wrong? because like growing up I remember like watching TV shows like cops and like or like law and order and like everyone like all the TV shows all the media everything is all centered around like prosecuting people and of course the guy who's being arrested who's being you know the guy that iced tea arrested in SVU of course he's like he's a he's a terrible guy and like is he going to get no he's never they're never going to get away with it because we're all bad guys And kind of like by extension, we start to think that everyone is accused of a crime is somehow bad. And I just don't think that's the case. Sorry to interrupt today's episode, everyone, but I need to tell you about find a great attorney.

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Now let's get back into my interview with Thomas Leaf. And now there's even more than ever, there's two parts to that now too. You have that aspect and then you have the part where say they were found guilty or they did take a plea deal and then they come out. And now they have this burden of being labeled as a felon and people associate that with being a bad person. I mean, we were talking the other day just because of my past, people. associate that with me being a bad person, but they never gave me a chance. And I'm a lot different than what the news media has made me out to be in some cases. And what I think is that there should be like a follow-up article about every individual that

gets out because there's the one side painted of them before getting arrested or after getting arrested or getting convicted. But when they get out, there's no second article. Yeah. Like if you searched Ian Bick, Danbury, there's not one positive article for years, you know? And it's beyond just my situation. It's just in general, there should be some follow up to what that person's doing. Yeah.

And I think that's one of the reasons why, you know, when you invited me on the show, I, like, you know, I mean, first of all, on the one hand, I'm like, why me? You know, like, the joke I always say to people is like, I'm not even a real lawyer. I'm just a public defender. you know, but like, you know, I think that, you know, I think it's okay for the audience knows, like, how we met each other. And it was through AJ, I think, is how we. AJ Galante. Yeah, AJ Galante. He was on the show, too.

Who's on the show. And I, and it's funny, I knew, I, like, I've seen the Netflix documentary about AJ and his family. And, like, I grew up in New Haven. So coming to Danbury, Danbury is like this, like, odd little microcosm. Connecticut. It's like its own state within Connecticut. It's just such a different place than what I'm used to growing up. But I knew about AJ long before I ever met the guy. I watched the Netflix documentary about the Danbury Trashers. And I had heard like, you know, working at the courthouse. Like his name would come up once in a while. Your name would come up as well. You know, I think like, you know, and people always, you know, and, you know, I think AJ. I started taking my son to go to his place to go box. And AJ's like, you got to like get your son back into, you know, podcasting or, you know, doing his YouTube channel. And I think that's how he connected, you know, you to him.

And, you know, everyone who knows me knows that I would not want my son associated with anyone who I didn't think was, you know, a safe person for him to be around. And I think that like, you know, by looking at your platform and looking at the thesis of all the guests that you've ever had on, it's always about that like, like you can always turn it around. You can always get back up. You know, it's like the cliche in boxing. It's not how many times you get knocked down. It's how many times you get back up. And that really spoke to me, you know, because I've seen like there are other, you know, platforms, other. podcasts, other places that talk to people who have gone to prison.

And a lot of them are like interesting war stories about what prison life is like. And a lot of them are, you know, some of them like sensationalize it in ways that I kind of like, okay, I get it. You're trying to like sell a product, basically. But I think, you know, the common theme throughout all the different episodes I've seen, you know, on Locked in that I really appreciated was that, it's not just about what got you locked up but how did you try to put the pieces back together again once you got out because it's not like you know a person's life does a defendant's life doesn't

end once they're sentenced like that and like the case isn't over when a person's sentenced you know particularly if that person has to go in and do do some time um and that's like something I think I feel like people don't understand like how traumatically like traumatically life altering that experience is. It's people don't understand how like it's it's almost like I don't know if it's a good analogy to say it's like being like sent away to war but it's like it changes you. It's it's something that that you know you have to do a lot of work on yourself to kind of like pick yourself back up and put yourself back out there.

And you're always going to have that scarlet letter on you. People are always going to judge you based on what they saw in the media or what they heard about. Or just knowing about the fact that like, oh, that person's got a conviction. That's something that, you know, follows you for the rest of your life. You know, and I think it's something where, you know, what do I, what's the nature of my job? it's trying to advocate for people who deserve a second chance, you know, or people who deserve some sort of consideration

or people who, you know, who aren't the sum of their worst choices, you know, that they are people who are still worthy of, you know, you know, being thought, like everyone should be treated with some level of dignity and humanity.

Even the people who were accused of the worst crimes possible. You know, people always ask me, like, yeah, you get assigned cases of people like crimes against children, right? It's always the first thing people always, whenever I say someone like what I do for a living, they're like, how could you represent those people? And it's like easy.

Like, on the one hand, how you represent or how the system treats, you know, the system has to treat everybody. Like, it's not a right if it's only for certain people who have some sort of like privilege. You know, the system can't just pick and choose who the Constitution applies to. And, you know, and on the one hand, too, everyone was someone's child at one point. You know, everyone was like everyone, even the people who are accused of the most heinous things, you know, whether they're guilty or not guilty, everybody was someone like that person was born. And that was like they were someone's child.

You know, they were someone's baby. Like someone looked at them when it was like, oh my God, that's like, that's my kid. They, you know, they might like they might not have been able to, you know, vocalize it or act on it. But, you know, I don't know if that makes sense. No, absolutely. I mean, and that's what our show does is basically, you know, humanize each individual because we start at their childhood. And we, and you can see that the person that wasn't convicted, is not so different than the person that was and fell into addiction and prison and whatnot.

Like we all start at the same spot. Yeah. We grow up differently, but we're all at that beginning starting point. And the importance here for you today is you defend these individuals that come on our show. You're the representative. So it's so important, you know, to hear your take on it and side of it. Yeah. I, you know, and again, I still feel like what,

I do is I'm very fortunate to have the career that I have. Even though, like, if people ask me, like, if you could go back and go to art school, like, if you could, if you could say you could go back to, like, when you had to apply to college, rather than going to school and becoming an English teacher, would you have rather gone back and do, gone back and gone to, like, I don't know, Cal Art or RISD or any other, like, you know, SV, like, was it, School of Visual Arts in New York? all the places I thought about going as a kid. Would you go back and do it over again and do things differently?

And I think, honestly, I would say no. You know, like, even though, like, art is a huge part of my life and who I am, and it's something that people associate with me. I'm always constantly drawing. I've always, like, one of these, like, I've always wanted to, like, produce my own comic book or illustrate my own novel or put out an animated film or something like that. That's something I've always wanted to do.

and even if I was given the opportunity to go back and make a different decision that would lead me down the path where I could have done that, I still think I would want to go and do take the road that got me here to where I am because I think it's important work. Like I think it's something that like I am immensely proud of. I think of guys like Tom Olman.

You know, like those are the people. who like if if he's wherever he is now and he looks at me and says you've done a good job like that would give me so much satisfaction or or knowing that like you know like you know that like like that would make all the difference that would make such a huge difference to me you know or I mean I said that really inarticully or really inartfully yeah you know like I'm paid it's funny it's like what do you do for a living you talk like that's basically my well that's my job now too. I get to interview people. So, yeah, and I hope I'm a good interviewee. I get.

Anyone that's willing to talk and speak is great, you know. It's a people that don't take a little bit to open up that are a little bit harder work. But once I get comfortable and inaction and everything, and, you know, because it's just me and the guest in a room, there's no one else. And it's comfortable. We make it comfortable. Yeah. No, you're an easy guy to hang out with. I'm glad you think that. I know, like my, my son, you know, he really likes you. It's like, it's, it's adorable.

Like, you know, he's like, I think the last time we were, you know, working on his stuff, he's like, we're going to go see Ian today, right? And I was like, and I think like a lot of people would be like, are you sure you want your kid hanging out with him? And I'm like, yeah, why not? Why not? Like, you know, he's like, like, like, everyone's got a past, right? Like every person you ever dated had an ex.

Yeah. Like everybody's made and like are, have we all like is like show me as someone who's never made a mistake. Show me someone who has never made a poor choice, you know, or or made a series of poor choices. You know, I think the question then becomes, what do you do? What do you do with that at that point? You know, like what do you like what do you do after you've realized that you've made poor choice? or you, you know, did things that you wouldn't, that you're ashamed of or wouldn't normally do now. If you reflect on it and you think about it and you internalize it and you learn from it and you grow from it,

you know, that's that's the goal, right? I mean, like one of the things I love about my job is that I am constantly in a position where I can evolve as a human being. you know, when I think about my outlook and how I saw the things, how I saw things when I first got into criminal defense law, you know, I started off going to law school wanting to be a cop. And now I'm like, anything but. I'm completely on the opposite end of things. And I think that like, not that I think law enforcement isn't a worthy pursuit. I think that that is something if that's your calling, if that's where you feel. you can do the best work that you can for your fellow human being, then, you know, again, I'm not here to make your decisions. I'm here to support them, you know, and I would say that to anyone that I met. You know, it's like, look, man, you got to decide what, what's the path you want to walk? Well, then make sure you can walk it with your head held high.

You know, like that, that's, you know, and that's, I would say that to me if I was talking to me when I was 18 years old who was scared to go to art school. Like the people always say, like there's another attorney who is a guy I've always looked up to and I use one of my old supervisors guy named John Walkley.

And he's still in the division too. It's a fantastic lawyer, wonderful human being. He always said to me, you know, Thomas, I think you missed your calling every time you'd see me. Like, I'd be like in court waiting for my cases to call and I doodle and I'm like drawing like little like, you know, stuff. my notes waiting for my cases and he's like man I really think you missed your calling and I was like

I think you know I don't think I did you know I think I think that there's you know that I think that um because again there's something that there's something that I get from the work that I do from working with the people that I do um you know where you know you can really help someone get through a really terrible time or a really difficult time, you know, or you can help someone get connected to services, gain insight, grow. You know, like one of the things that I love about my job is that I learn a tremendous amount about myself from the people that I work with and the people that I represent. You know, there are like, like I'm continually humbled because you're supposed to be as the attorney, whatever field you're in, you're supposed to be the expert.

You're supposed to be the person that the client goes to for advice. You're supposed to counsel them and tell them, this is what you should do, this is what in your best interest. These are what the consequences that could happen if you choose to do this or if you choose to do that. And I think a lot of attorneys get lost in the idea of, you know, they don't like being told what to do. Like they don't like having their mistakes highlighted to them. They don't like it when their blind spots are kind of exposed. Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile with a message for everyone paying big wireless way too much. Please for the love of everything good in this world, stop.

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Whereas for me, I think that just makes me a better lawyer. I think that makes me a better lawyer. It makes me a better human being. And I'm really grateful that I can work in a field that, you know, permits me to continually evolve, continually grow as a human being. And one of the things that is I get to practice compact. passion every day. You know, I get to, I have to remind myself that these are not docket numbers. These are not charges.

These are not, like, the accused, these are human beings, human beings who depend on me. You know, and maybe they don't say the nicest things to me, but that's fine. Like, I don't, like, I'm not, like, I'm not looking to be exalted or treated in a certain way. because I'm lucky to be where I am. You know, and I want to be in a position where I can at least try and give back to, you know, to the people that I, that I encounter. Or, you know, my father used to always say to me, if you can leave a place better than how you found it, you know, and everyone says that. It's like, you know, I want to attribute like, like, as a Freddie is like, you know, Confucius or something. But it's like, yeah.

Yeah. I mean, that's something that everyone, you know, here is leave, leave the place better than how you found it. I work in a field that allows me that gives me the opportunity to do that. And I'm just always going to be grateful for that. Now, the way you just described how you look at cases at individuals, do you think there's a common ground for prosecutors to look at it at that same level? Because from a former inmates' perspective, I think a lot of us feel like the prosecutors are just looking at it as another docket number

or another deal to be made and not as an individual human. You know, people running, there's always like this kind of trap where people think like there's some sort of like a conspiratorial aspect on the state side of things. You know, and like are there states attorneys who I know who are who do practice compassion? Yeah, absolutely. I do like I do like you know it because it's like I do know them I do work alongside them and part of like the gig as a criminal defense attorney any in any like attorney really the one your one stock and trade like the one thing that you have that once you lose you really can't get back is your credibility and and I think that like you know you want to be able to make sure that

when you say something to a judge or you say something to a state's attorney, that they take that and they say to themselves, okay, Thomas told me this and Thomas always tells me the truth. Right. Or, you know, I want to make sure that whenever I'm representing something to anyone, whether it's a state's attorney or whether it's a judge, that my credibility is something that carries weight. You know, and I think state's attorneys feel the same way.

You know, they need to know, they need to feel as though, that, you know, it's something where, I mean, it's, I don't know, I would say most of the, most of the people that I know, I don't see them as being cruel or callous. And I think it's easy to kind of, you know, if it's, if there is a stereotype about criminal defense lawyers and public defenders in particular regarding their, like, capability. competence. I think there's a similar kind of stereotype with state's attorneys of their cruelty and callousness that, you know, I think is sometimes a little unfair, you know, if I'm, if I'm, if I'm going to be honest, you know, because I know that like people, you know, always will talk to me like, well, you know, tell me, you know, what do you think? Should I get a real lawyer? You know, versus having me as a public defender. And I, and that like used to bother me. And it's not like,

you know, that's like, you know, that's the stereotype that we, that we grow up with because of, you know, mass media. Yeah, where do you think that comes from? That's a great topic to dive into. Because I know, like, when I was battling and going through my cases, I wanted to stay far away from a public defender because there's that connotation, at least on the state level. But then when I got to the federal level, I realized there's this whole, like, CJA. Federal defenders are good. Yeah, like my attorney, which you probably know him, Jonathan Einhorn. John Einhorn was your attorney? He's a good friend.

That's hilarious. Tell him I said hi next time we talk to him. He knows me. And he's got to know your dad, right? He does. He's like a sole practitioner in New Haven. Funny story. John Einhorn bought my parents.

That house I grew up with. He bought for my parents. John's a great guy. I grew up with his son. Okay. Yeah, Jeff. Jeff, who I think, works in Brooklyn doing criminal defense work and federal defender work. He did something with the, he defended Al Chappo.

He was on the El Chapo case. That's right. That's right. That's right. That is hilarious. John just loves the art of trial. I'm like, John, when are you going to retire? And he's like, never. Like, I'm doing this.

He drives around his nice little car. His ass is Austin Healy. He just, like me, it was me and him battling the feds. Like, he's just, he shows up at his briefcase. I saw him a few weeks ago. And he's just a really good guy. We're going to have him on the show. He's a great to do it.

I love that guy. I, for, you know, it's funny. I always, I've been mean to ask you who represented you and stuff. And, and I've, and it's something like, I feel like I should have known that. Yeah, and Danbury, it was Jeff Jowdy. Yeah. And then for federal it was Einhorn.

I just Googled Best New Haven attorneys. He popped up. I filled out his form. He loved the case. Like, he was so energetic. He's like, yeah, we're going to trial. Yeah. But he's the one that kind of showed me how it actually works with, like, the public defenders

are actual, like, they come from law firms. It's not like it's their own, like, public defender unit. So, like, in the CGA panel and the, federal system is is not too dissimilar to how Connecticut's public defender system is set up. Connecticut has a really robust public defender system, unlike most states. In Connecticut, like every courthouse, like I'm at the Danbury, JD, GA location, but every courthouse has its own public defender's services office. And then when you have conflicts, we have assigned counsel who are like the CGA guys.

So if like, you know, my father used to do a CGA panel work and he complained about it. He was like, he was like, oh gosh, it's like to plead someone out in federal court is like going to high mass. You know, it takes 45 minutes to do anything. You know, and that's, you know, and he's like, that's not for me, you know. But it would be like if you're on the panel and it's not easy to get on the panel. Like you have to like have like trial experience. You have to know, like you have to demonstrate that you're competent because they'll have like the feds will do some huge. bust and they'll have like 50 guys that they're going to arraign one day and like the federal

defenders can like you know they they they keep who they believe is that the quote unquote the heavy and then all the other guys like my dad when he was you know I think he was talking about he gets a phone call at like a Tuesday at like 10 30 and like hey we're doing it you like wait you want to do an arayment at two o'clock at federal court in new haven you got a guy who's like a lookout for like some like some like organized crime organization. And in Connecticut, we have assigned counsel who do the same thing where if we have like co-defendants, you know, we have to refer them out to someone who's a contracted attorney with our office to take on the case.

And so that way there's no ethical dilemmas or ethical conflicts. It's like it's a requirement. You can't have one office representing like two co-defendants in one case. Now, is there an advantage from getting the outsourced attorney that's with a big law firm versus, say, someone that's in the public defender? Like, are they working off the same budget? Are there constraints? Yeah. I mean, like, like, if you're going to, if you're assigned counsel, like when I was in private practice for a while, I did assign counsel work too. And if there was something like I needed my client to get, like when I was, this was like back when I was in,

they call the SPD work or special public defender work. If I needed like an evaluation done, like I could go to the division and say, hey, I need to pay for a doctor. My client can't pay for a to do like this evaluation. They would do it. You know, they would, like, you know, that's something where, you know, I mean, there's no such thing as enough resources. But access to resources was something that was generally pretty, like, made available to me when I was doing SPD work if it was needed.

I know what John, like we were able to get a private investigator that was all covered under the court system. That was through like the CJA program, which was awesome. Anything like special witnesses, travel, all of that's covered under there. which is really interesting because John's his own attorney. So I thought it was awesome having like an actual, like who had his own law firm. Yep. But I also think at the other end of the spectrum, when you're going up against someone that's big as like the United States government,

it does help to have those big law firms with all the resources and everything because it was literally just me and him against a packed, you know, side, a prosecutor side with FBI agents, IRS agents and everything. Yeah. So I feel like if you had that big, bigger. law firm too, there could be some advantages. Yeah, I mean, I think there's one thing, there are a couple of things that money can't buy, and that is credibility and competence. Like, there are plenty of big-name law firms out there with attorneys working for them that aren't necessarily competent.

you know that's that's something where I think that like you know it's funny I I remember one time this maybe was like a few years ago like someone in private counsel you know attorney comes to me he's like what do you think about this offer and I was like what do you ask me for you know and like like well you like like he was like inferring like somehow that I was like really like you know I had a reputation for being like really good or something and I was like me you know like what do you want to know my opinion for Um, you know, and, and I think that's just, I don't know, that I, you're never, you know, the joke or the joke with me is that you can't compliment me. I, I, I, it's impossible.

Like, I won't, I just won't accept it. Um, so in any time anyone tries to infer that I'm somehow like good at something, it's like imposter syndrome or something, I don't know, immediately kicks in and I'm like, you ask him, you know, like, ask that person. Don't ask me. Like, like, ask Jeff Jowdy. Like, there's another guy who I know. very well. Who's probably you run it

to at the courthouse every day. Yeah. Oh yeah. No. And it's and it's but I think like

people, you know, think that because I mean, again, I go back to a guy like Tom Ollman. Arguably one of the best

criminal defense attorneys I've ever seen. You know? And he was the, he was a career public defender. You know, I think probably if you look

at like the numbers between people who have private counsel versus people who have like, you know, a public defender attorney. I can't speak for outside Connecticut. And again, not that I'm speaking on behalf of anyone other than myself here. I think that there have been like studies done on like what are like the average results of a case. Like, you know, in cases and like whether it's plea deals or trial, things like that.

And you'll find that, you know, public defender attorneys are actually pretty good. Because, I mean, like, they're, they're, it's all we do. You know, this is what our main focus is. And you, you have people who are, who, you know, for the most part, want to be there. One, this is a job that they want to do. Like, you know, this isn't like, like, like I think, um. You know what I think it is? It's like the thing with the police where you have one bad apple that kind of tarnishes

the rest of it. Yeah. Like when you see something of the news, not every police officer's bad. one made mistakes. So like when you hear about the cases where, say, any type of attorney botched something and evidence or representation, people kind of blanket assume that they're all bad. And I think I grew up around that stigma too where it's like, you know, don't get a public defender.

Don't do this because of these situations. Yeah. So I think that definitely plays a part of it. I mean, I would like to try and figure out where that stereotype first started. and I think it probably is from the media. I think it probably is from like, you know, television and mass media, you know, in the way in which, because I've, I think growing up in all the, like, criminal procedural shows I've ever seen, I think I've maybe, there's maybe, like, one show ever made about public defenders, you know, and I don't even remember the name of it. Like, that's how great a show it was. You know, it's always told, like this, the narrative is always told from the state side, you know, and, and I, you know, this kind of like reminds me as a kid, you know, growing up, like, I grew up in New Haven, very privileged, very, like, you know, I grew up with John Einhorn's kid.

Like, we went to school and play, this is just to give you kind of an idea of, like, my background. I played lacrosse with, with Jeff Einhorn and John's son. That's where we first met. And that's funny. I got to tell John that. I got to check in with him. That cracks me up. He's your attorney.

I should have known that. And I know AJ's attorney, Hugh Keefe. Oh, I didn't know that. He's another. It's funny. I'm watching the Netflix series. I'm like, that's Hugh Keefe. I've seen the name.

Yeah, you kind of see like, and McGettrick's another big one because he's got the perfect law office. That's right across for the courthouse. I've known Mike, as long as I've been in Danbury. He's another. I actually went in to Mike when my, because I had like local cases for, it was like a vandalism thing that my community hit me with and then a legal disposition of liquor because they found open bottles of liquor in the club, which was just a misdemeanor. And he was like, yeah, I can't represent you. There's conflict of interest.

But he was like my first choice for an attorney. And that's how I ended up with Jeff. And Jeff was like, yeah, you do not want to go to trial against the feds. Most people say that. I mean, everyone's, because it's like, the thing is, like, with the feds, like, they have limitless resources. Yeah. You know, they have, like, you know, every, like, federal prosecutor has a team of his own FBI ninjas, like, on speed dial, you know? And they have, like, you know, if there's, there's, was it no, my father used to say about dealing with the feds, no turn is left unstoned, you know, with them.

And it's just like they, and they're also, they're famous. for sitting on a case for years and don't bring an indictment until they're absolutely thousand percent sure. And they'll watch a guy commit like multiple crimes. Yeah, I've seen that.

And just be like, no, not yet, not yet. Okay, now get them. Yeah, I mean, some of the individuals we have on the show, like, it's like almost on the line where they're like, they're getting set up to a certain extent. It's just, it's pretty crazy.

But I've learned and this experience is you just play ball with them. Like they call me up about restitution. Hey, we need you to pay this. Okay. It's not worth fighting it at all because you're just going to lose at the end of it. Yeah. And drain resources.

Yeah. What do you think is the biggest challenge in the criminal justice system today? Oh, gosh. You know, the bail system is always hard. The bail system always is something that you look at. And I feel like, you know, Connecticut has been trying to reform the cash bail system. for and it's gone through many it's very different than when I first started. And I think they're trying to move in a positive direction and there's still a lot more, you know, improvement that needs

to be done. But it is something where, you know, like being held on bond, you know, is a big deal. You know, whether or not you're able to postpone or, you know, in a lot of ways, it's kind of like one of the most determining factors of your case. Because I remember in a couple of years, there was a guy who he had on, I just, I don't remember his first name was the mayor. You know,

the, I think his last name was Flan. Oh, well, Flanagan. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

yeah, it was interesting listening to him talk on the perspective between a guy who is a prosecutor and a defense attorney. And he, I think, you know,

that he said that, you know, are pretty accurate, you know, pretty true or, or like, you know, that pretrial detention is used as a way to like, you know, like, you know, you'll have someone who will be sitting in pretrial detention held on bond, you know, and like in the feds, I think there's even ways in which they can make it so you don't have a bond. Yeah. And. Because there's not money used in the feds. Yeah. It's just like the signature. Okay. And I think a great example of that is you look at the Michelle Draconis case, which is huge right now in Connecticut, and she is a conspiracy to commit murder, she's been out free for four years. Imagine if she was sitting inside a detention center, like most people are for those kind

of charges that don't have money. I think there would be two entirely different outcomes, which is interesting, too. I mean, it's kind of like, it's like an expression, it's the ugliest expression of capitalism that I can think of in our. in our society today where it's just like, you know, whoever holds the ability to invest in the, you know, the way of getting someone out, whether it's a, and it's like it doesn't matter whether it's a million dollar bond or like a $10,000 bond. It's whether or not you can make it. It's whether or not you, you have the resources and access the resources that post whatever that

bond is. So it's almost like the dollar amount doesn't really matter. What matters is whether or not you're able to get out. And it's like, and if, you know, and, you know, it's just, I feel like it's gross. It's like, you know, someone's access to wealth shouldn't be determinative of the outcome of their case. I just feel, I don't know how else to better, how else to say that. But you do think we're moving in a better direction? I think Connecticut is. I think, because I think there's a lot of people in the legislature who, who are sensitive and understand that, that, that,

that the bond, the bail system that we have is, you know, it's not like what it used to be. It used to, I mean, like, you used to have, like, you know, like being a bail bondsman in Connecticut, you could make a lot of money doing it. I mean, you still kind of can, but there's a lot more ways in which someone who can post a bond with the court can get that money back at the end. You know, at least there's that, you know. But, like, again, like, you know, it's still not, I mean, Do I have a good solution to it?

No. You know, me being the, the bad leftist that I am. You know, like the, was there, you know, can I think of a better system? Not off the top of my head, but I think that it is that we are trending in the right direction. Because I think there is a lot of people who do want to advocate for, you know, criminal justice reform in that sense. and the bail system is something that definitely needs to constantly be monitored and looked at and reformed. And, you know, there's always going to be unintended consequences. So, you know, there's, like, I remember because in New York City, they did bail reform.

And then everyone got upset because, like, oh, this guy who should have been held on bond and was and was let go and he committed crimes again. And it's like, I don't know. I mean, you can really rely on what the New York Post puts as a headline. A lot of it's very clickbaiting. Yeah. Yeah. So, but I think that like, you know, it's better that people, it's better, we're better off when we are making it less about money. You know, I think is, you know, and particularly when you're talking about, you know, people's civil rights.

What about time, like hours in a week? As a public defender, are you working just your normal 40 or is it like as if you're a sole law firm? working countless hours on the cases? I mean, there's never enough time, you know, and there's always, you bring your work home with you in a lot of different ways. Like, you watch, like, again, I think there's like this idea, this idealized version of like, you see like an attorney like bringing like stacks of files home and, you know, slaving away over like, you know, things.

And it's like, is it like that like kind of? not really, you know, like there's, there's a, there's a lot of work that goes into it. You know, there always is and there should be. You know, I mean, like, these are people's lives that we're talking about. You know, is it, but I think that we have this kind of like romanticized idea of like what, you know, like the person who like, you know, becomes a martyr almost for their client. And I think that like, you know, do you, you know, do we have to put? put in extra hours. Yeah, absolutely. Especially when you're on trial. You know, like when you're on

trial, everything stops. Like, you know, you're like you're, you're, you're focusing only on those things and you're, you know, that's when things are, it's most intense. Um, but it's also too, just getting, I mean, that, you know, trial is not a huge part of, of the, the day to day. you know it's it's making time to go visit clients who are who are locked up and you know it's getting access to your people trying to like even sit down and talk to people who aren't locked up you're trying to there's only so much time that you can devote to each person um that it's you have to you know I don't know it it's just like you know it's like you wish you could just stop the clock you know and then reach everywhere

one. But a lot of times, it's just something as simple as you have clients who don't have phones. You know, if your clients are like, if you have clients who are like homeless, you know, or, you know, who have like, you know, who need help with like services getting access to medical care, to substance abuse, to mental health illness. it's like you can work as many hours you want as hard as you want but sometimes you just it's just like I know what this person needs I know how I want to try and get them connected to services but those services don't exist you know that's like where it gets frustrating there's those are those are things

that are just beyond your control that you can't change or you can do all this stuff that you can to help a person out and it's just like people who don't have support systems in place. Again, it's like with that the social worker was when she was talking about like, you know, you have people who have every odd stacked against them. And I think that can get, you know, disheartening, you know, because you look at these people and like, they're about by the grace of God go I. Like, what did I do to deserve, you know, to have like, like, like, like, like,

growing up in the household that I grew up in. Like, this is something that I'm always constantly, like, reminding myself of or thinking about, you know, like, when I look at people who I've represented or the people who come through our office, you know, and I'm like, man, like, what's the separation between, like, why did I get to be so lucky? You know, why did I get to be so fortunate

to grow up in a household that, wasn't surrounded by violence. That if I did need to go see a doctor, I had that available. You know, if I did need to go to like, you know, my, you know, it's growing up, like, I was a pain in the ass growing up. Like, I wasn't an easy kid to raise. Like, I was constantly getting in trouble at school. And, you know, if my parents didn't have resources, it would have been really easy to

to just shunt me off as being just a bad kid when really, no, I was just some neurodivergent weirdo who just, you know, liked computer games a lot and didn't want to listen to what the nuns told me because I went to Catholic school for a period of time. But because I had access to resources, because I had access to services, because I had parents who had the wherewithal to get me, you know, to keep an eye on me. You know, I didn't, my mom didn't have to work, you know, so when I came home from school, there was always someone there for me. These are things that are completely foreign

to the people who come through our offices. These are things that like most of the clients who come through our offices statewide, you know, that would be like if I could like only give you 10% of what I had growing up. You know, and I just feel like it's just, you just look at, I can't help but feel it's like almost like arbitrary. You know, why was this poor person born into these circumstances?

says, well, I was born into these. And I feel like thinking about that, given that I was, you know, to quote Spider-Man, with great power comes great responsibility, you know? You know, that's, I'm more of a daredevil fan anyways. Because Matt Murdoch, I never watched Daredevil. Matt Murdoch is a public defender. Really? Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, his thing is kind of like, his thing is like, oh, I only represent the innocent. Like, oh, you know, okay, Matt. Like, but yeah, there's a, there's a big thing about through the old, the old Dairy Devil comics that, and it was one of, he was one of the reasons why he was one of my favorite, um, superheroes. Um, you know, and I didn't realize, like, I didn't look at Daredevil. I'm like, oh, I want to be a public defender like Matt Murdoch was because that there's different versions of him where he's actually like a Fed and like a prosecutor and stuff. And I'm like, ew. Um, you know, or, um, but it's something. you know, you know, it's like, I feel like because I was so lucky that it's incumbent upon,

and this is why going back to like, like why I don't think going to art school would have been the better decision for me. Because if I had gone to art school and just focused on my own art, I'm just taking care of my own needs and my own dreams. But as working with the population that I do, doing the work that I do, you know, having come from a background where I've been given so much, it's incumbent upon me to give back. It's incumbent upon me to help people who weren't so fortunate as I am. That's a lesson that I learned from Tom Oman. That is something that he really was like, you know, if that was something that I remember

him instilling him, something that my father used to instill in me too. I mean, my dad grew up in much different circumstances than I did. You know, he grew up with a father like my, I didn't know my grandfather because he was an abusive alcoholic. You know, and there was, you know, a time where there was, like, pressure put upon me or expectation put upon me, not by my father, but by other people around me who are like, why aren't you going into practice with your father? Why don't you partner up with him? You know, like, why don't you go do what he does?

And I just would always tell him is, like, I'm where I belong. And no one understood that. Like, people always questioned that about me in my, career choices. You know, why would you want to be working the public defender services when you could be working, you know, doing very well for yourself, making lots of money, doing personal injury work and doing like, you know, family law and divorces and things like that, you know, and taking over the law practice of my father.

And that's always been an option. Like, it's not like Freddie said, no, you got to make it on your own. Like, he would have loved it. Nothing would have made him happier if we could have done leaf and leaf. LLP or LLC or whatever. But that just wasn't my path, you know. And so like when, you know, people still tell me, like, I think you missed your calling. I was like, I think you're wrong.

You know, I think I'm where I'm exactly where I need to be. How do you convey to clients this passion you have? Like, how do you build trust with them? Because for me as an individual, I think this is great to know that my public defender, that my attorney is so passionate and cares so much. about his clients. I feel like that's a big part of your job, getting people to trust you in that sense.

I think it's not that difficult to just be kind. To like, it's not, there's no trick to being compassionate other than just being compassionate. Like there's a lot of immigrant people. There's a large immigrant population in this jurisdiction. I mean, there's a large immigrant population everywhere you go. But in particular,

there's a lot of Portuguese speaking people in this area, and there's a lot of Spanish speaking people in this area who come through our office and I'm doing my bet like just so just something as simple as saying hello how are you in someone's native language immediately makes them feel seen like if you can figure out ways to make your client feel seen and feel heard um I don't think that's that I don't for me I don't find that to be too difficult I think that um if the key is and I'm not like unique in this respect. This isn't something that like I've figured out the process to. I feel this way because I learned it from people. I learned it from people in Tom Olman's office. I learned it from,

you know, attorneys that I've worked with in the office that I work with. When I look at, you know, you know, other attorneys like throughout my entire career growing up, you want to make sure that you're, it should be a priority, at least in my eyes, that you're close. You're close. You're client feels like that they're a worthy human being, you know, at least in their attorney's eyes. You know, and I think that's something where, you know, there's, we, we think about it as being some sort of like, you know, mystical kind of like secret, but it's not. It's like, you know, I tell my son, be kind.

You know, it's cost you nothing, you know, saying thank you, saying, please, you know, something as simple as, you know, you. asking your client, how are you doing, you know, outside of all of this, you know, and tell them, it's okay not to be okay. It's okay to, like, you know, it's okay that, like, if, if things are, like, not good for you and you're emotionally not in a place where you feel like, you know, safe and secure, like, it's okay to express that here. And if that is the case, what can I do to help you? What can I do to help you? Because it's like, like, you know, how can I holistically treat the client. How can I make sure that my clients, not just their legal needs are met,

but if there are some sort of emotional needs that they have, you know, and a lot of people would roll their eyes hearing me say stuff like this. But that's just like, you know, that's the only way I know how to do the job is that it's most important that you treat the human, you know, because they're not a docket number. They're not a charge. They're not the accused. They're not the defendant. You know, I used to have this idea. of like, you know, it's just me and my client versus the world. And it's like, sure, that is an aspect of it. But it's more important that your client is not a prop.

Your client is not someone that is there to make you feel good about what you're doing. Like my feelings in the case are irrelevant. What I'm trying to do is make sure that my client is treated with, humanity and dignity, you know, and the way in which you get around those, like, you know, the stereotypes of whatever, you know, if you're doing it to dismantle the stereotype, I think you're not coming from an honest place. I think you should be coming from it as in, as in, who cares what the stereotype is? I don't care about how people view public defender work or people who have the career that I have. What I care about is the person that I'm standing

I'm sitting with and talking about this case with. How do I make that person feel like, like there are a whole human being in my eyes? You know, and how can I make that person appear as a whole human being in the system's eyes? Because the system is a meat grinder. You know, it's just really, you know, and it's like, you know, it's a system

that once you get locked into it, it's, you know, locked in. Yeah, I see what we did there? What advice would you give to someone that's, you know, making a career out of law, like a young college student that's considering it or even someone that's in law school now? It's not too late to change your mind. I think, like, I mean, it's so cliche to, like, find something that you're passionate about. Because to some people, you know, I just started teaching a course over at University of New Haven. And there's, you know, there's a lot of kids who are, like, thinking about going to law school. And they're very curious and they're asking me about the, you know, being a practitioner or whatnot.

And, like, I'm like, well, why do you want to go to law school? And this one student said to me is like, because I want to make a lot of money. And I was like, valid. Like, if that's what your goal is, if that's what you, if that's what you, if, if, if you think that that's what you're, you know, like, again, I'm not here to make your choices. I'm only here to support them. you know, I think like, you know, when I, because if I were speaking to one L. Thomas Leif who thinks that he's going to go on to become, like my, I was like, I want to go, I want to be in the U.S. Attorney's Office. You know, I want to be a federal prosecutor. Me today, to that person, be like, look, man, if that's your path, walk it. You know, if that's the path that you want to walk, walk it. But just make sure you can. can do it with your head held up.

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subscriptions, no long-term commitments, you just pay per session. Grow helps you find therapy on your time. Whatever challenges you're facing, Grow therapy is here to help. Grow accepts over 100 insurance plans, including Medicaid in some states. Sessions average about $21 with insurance, and some pay as little as $0,000 depending on their plan. Visit growth therapy.com slash book now to get started. That's growth therapy.com slash book now. Growtherapy.com slash book now. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan. You know, I think that like, you know, you know, people, you know, whatever path that you're going to walk, you have to make sure that you're doing it for yourself, you know, that you are intrinsically motivated to being like, this is, this is the person that I want

to be in the community in which I live. And if you're, you know, and hopefully you can do that with compassion. You know, you can do it with kindness. You can do it with empathy. Even if your goal is to just get out there and make paper, you know, if that's what you want to do, you know, you know, if that's what you want to do, okay, well, just don't be a jerk about it then. You know, don't do it where you're exploiting other people, you know. And it's like, you know, the legal profession is a weird one because there's a lot of theater in the legal profession. There's a lot of like, you know, when I was in private practice, one of the things that I was kind of like, you know, realizing is that it's important to look as a private attorney. it's really important to not just be a good lawyer, but to look like a good lawyer.

Right? Like, you know, like what you wear matters when you do client intakes as a private attorney. How you, you know, the office space that you keep. Like there is like feeder, you know, to that where like it's all like, you know, it's all just that. It's just to like you're selling an image to a client because you're hoping that they're going to retain you for whatever case that they have that they're bringing you. Because, you know, and that's an aspect to the profession that I just, I'm not good at. I'm not like, that's not where my head's at. That's not what I'm interested in, which is why I think that's why if I wasn't, if I wasn't working, you know, for representing indigent clients or working doing public defender work, I wouldn't be a lawyer.

You know, I'd be doing, I would be making comic books. Yeah, I would be. Yeah. You know, I would be. So like, you know, I think that I just spent a lot of time completely not answering your question. No, no. I mean, I think that was a good, that gives people the idea. Now, something we were, you know, touching on earlier in the conversation that there is this world now of these prison influencers,

people that are talking about their recovery and addiction, and they have hundreds of thousands of followers, millions of followers. They're building these platforms. And the world is kind of taking that. in like brands or do we work with these individuals and just this new level of influencing that the world's never seen before and individuals like myself too as someone that's in this legal system how can we use platforms like this to make changes in the world in the world now that we have so much power in these voices yeah it's a it's you know it's it's something

where I'm a I'm a Gen X kid so the influencer economy is something that happened way after I graduated from college and even law school so excuse me but um so the idea of even having like quote unquote a platform

just me as like an individual like like the fact that like I was watching like your YouTube channel was like dude there's like almost 300,000 people subscribe to this channel like there's like you know I watched a video last night, kind of like getting like, you know, get ready. And I'm like, and I'm like, oh my, Jesus Christ, 36,000 people watch this in the last month.

Like, people, that many people are going to listen to, like. And then we have the whole audio, Spotify, Apple, all those listeners too. My anxiety is going to the roof. And it's like I get up in front of strangers and I talk in front of strangers for a living, you know, like, you know and yet you know it's to me the the idea of putting yourself in a position where you have so many eyes on you is terrifying to me you know it's something where where it's it's a very vulnerable position but it also is a position where you are very um you reach so many people and i think like you like was it like oh you know like like the idea today of like my son right the idea of

being like okay your favorite show is on but you have to wait until Thursday at 7 o'clock to watch it is like what are you talking about i just want to i can i just it's on max it's on netflix it's on amazon i want to watch it right now so like the i think they used to call that like what linear television or linear like you know or like terrestrial radio and like All these old, old forms of media that I grew up used to, they were like, like, there was a lack of access there. Like the idea, like, like, like, I was telling you when we first started, sat down and talked about, like, you know, my friends who stream on Twitch. They started with a cable access TV show. And like, there is like a barrier to entry with that.

Like, you know, like now you can do all this stuff. You can put all this stuff together. you can create a platform, you can, you know, you get the equipment like here, like what you've done. And, and I think that you can, like, that barrier to entry is so much lower now. And, and, you know, like, what can you do? Well, you can have, you, like, you can have on as many people who can tell their stories as much as possible to remind people that these are human beings that we're talking about. that you know this isn't like you know that that that um you know that you

because there are people out there who are doing it for clout you know and if I thought you were one of those people I wouldn't be here you know I wouldn't want to be like I wouldn't want to be a part of that but like if you're you know it's it's an amazingly a democratized sort of way in which someone can create not just an audience, but a platform, but a thesis statement. Like, what is your thesis statement in terms of,

like, what are you trying to accomplish? What do you say enough to do? And if, you know, for locked in and you're, you know, like what you want to do, you know, you want to, you know, change the way people view, you know, convict people with convictions. I think that's a beautiful thing. You know, I think that's a wonderful thing.

I think it's very necessary. Because growing up, the only media that I was exposed to is that people who have convictions are bad people. That people who got arrested, their circumstances, what led them to that, to whatever, got them arrested. Irrespective of whether or not they were wrongfully arrested versus arrested because they actually did do something wrong. Like, I was raised with this belief through the media that these are bad people. You know, that these are not like, that you're different than you. you. You like, you know, like they're gross. They're dirty. They're criminals. Um, but I think now that the barrier to entry to creating like social media influencer platforms to get out and reach

other people, um, can really dismantle and dismiss a lot of those narratives. Um, you know, because why were those narratives, um, created in the first place? Because they sold ad money. You know, because it's like, you know, I'm trying to think of like... Well, you know, also these people wouldn't give them a voice. Yeah. Like if I called a local newspaper, which I've done in the past and say, hey, can we do a follow-up article? They don't give me the time of day.

Yeah, no. I mean, you know, but when one of my clips goes viral, that article from five years ago is the number one clip on their news site because people are searching the name. So I think this creates you're giving a voice to the voiceless, which is like a reoccurring theme. and I don't know if the world was ready for that. Yeah, like it's good, but there's just now this added pressure

because something I've noticed too is like if I reach out to politicians or trying to get involved in my community, they're kind of like it's not so as much easy to say no because now you have this platform where someone can make a TikTok where it's like says, well, I tried to do the right thing and this person didn't do that and it just puts a spotlight on them. So I think it put some pressure on the situation. That should because your audience, and a lot of times if you're talking about people who are in public office, these are your constituents.

You know, that there's this isn't a vend diagram. There's overlap here where the people who are tuning in to watch your shows are oftentimes the same people who, you know, people in the legislature also represent. You know, I mean, you know, and I think that like, you know, as, you know, as. They're, you know, if you're talking about politicians, you know, and they see that, you know, their constituencies are changing, their views are changing, you're supposed to be responsive to that, right? Like, you're supposed to, like, ostensibly in a representative democracy, the people that you elect are supposed to represent what you as, you know, like you're like, I don't know if you want to say like they almost work for you. but that's what they're supposed to do, you know, is that is, you know, and I think that like, you know, these, you know, influencers or these people who are in the position you have, you know, there's a lot of, there's a lot of responsibility that comes along with it too.

And if you, and if you don't handle it well, if you abuse, you know, the, the power that comes along with having a large platform, that will turn around and bite you back, too. You know, I mean, like, you know, it's, you know, along with like, like, social media is, like, scary to me because it's like, you know, it's like watching people get canceled. It's like rough, you know, like there's. I'm grateful all my dirty laundries out there. Anything bad someone wants to see about me. Guess what? It's on Google for almost 10 years ago now.

But it is scary. Like, you have to be very careful, which is why I'm, I'm sure people. professionals like yourself could be hesitant to come on a show like this too. And I get that aspect of it too. But I think it also goes back to give someone a chance, get to know them, have a conversation before just writing someone off because of their past because you got to watch some of the episodes and you realized quickly that it's not that. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's, they're like in the influencer space, there are grifters everywhere. I mean, like, grifter has become like a word that was never mentioned when I was younger to now it's like a very specific

person. When I say grifter, there's all, there's a, there's a certain face that pops into our head. You know, you, you mentioned that word. Every Netflix fraud story. Yeah. It's the word. Yeah. Yeah.

It's like, you know, like, there's like, and, and it's something where it, as of when you put yourself out there, it's vulnerable. It's, you know, like, I'm sticking my chin out for someone to take a swing at it, you know, because, but at the same time, like, you know, you know, you know, you know, it's, you know, You have to be willing to have the courage of your convictions. You know, and I should be able to sit in this chair and tell you what I feel. You know, if I can't do that, I don't know, what does that say about me? You know, like, what does that say about like, you know, and, you know, are there repercussions to this?

I don't, I mean, I don't think I've said anything too crazy. Yeah, yeah. I don't think I've said anything that's like way out of line other than just be like, look, man, don't be a jerk. You know, like help people. Like, you know, if you're, if you're like someone like me who is born into a life of privilege, like use that privilege to help people who don't have it. Like, how hard is that? Like, how difficult is that? Like, you know, like, it doesn't have to be all about me.

You know, it's got to be, you know, it's got to be, at some point, it's got to be bigger than that. Now, in a world where, and we're touching on us earlier, in a world where, in a world where, there are so many people that are have been incarcerated and are coming out into the world that are frowned upon that are not looked at as a normal human being. How do we change a stigma around giving someone a second chance? I think it's it's culturally you know like like if you look at the way other people other countries do criminal their criminal justice system and compare it to the way nationwide we do it in the United States. And it's, in some ways, you know, like there are other systems that are like super brutal.

Like, you know, that kid who got caned because he spit on the sidewalk in Singapore, right? But there's also a kid who is a school shooter who killed, I think, like 50, I forget, is the kid from Finland who like killed like 50 kids at a school outing, right? he's getting released like in a year or two, like if not already, because the maximum sentence that you can get in Scandinavian countries is 20 years. And you ask, you know, these Scandinavian countries, whether it's Sweden, Finland, Norway, Denmark, you ask them, why would you, why do you do this? And when I've seen people from those systems speak on it, and it's like, how can you expect someone to be a better version of themselves if you don't give them any hope.

If the maximum sentence that you can receive for the most horrible crimes that you can commit is capped at this number of years, which is half of what you can get in Connecticut for murdering one person. This guy is getting half that, and he murdered in cold blood, like said some horrible things, it was a hate crime. He gets out in 20, and it's like even someone who did something as terrible as that kid. if you don't give them any hope of like if you're the rest of your life is going to be spent in the system then you have no incentive to change uh and i think that like what i would like to see

is a is a system where um we are incentivizing people to be their best selves um and i think that you know in some ways we're striving towards that and other ways we're lagging behind but um but if you can incentivize, you know, like the way, you know, an incentive is like a good, in some, some circumstances, a dirty word. But it's kind of like, look, if we're going to be in a free market society, you know, if this is going to be, you know, that's what we adhere to is our, in terms of our belief, we're going to monetize everything. You know, you have to incentivize certain behaviors. I mean, that's the whole purpose behind, like, you know, laws. Like, you know, laws aren't there to prevent crime.

Laws are there to inform you. What do you do when the crime's been committed? And if you're going to make the punishment so harsh that a person has no incentive to do anything, because they're just being told, you know, you're going to be in the system, you're going to be trapped in the system forever for your entire life. What incentive does that person have to do better or be better or make different decisions? But you also have to, again, it goes back to your own. access to resources.

You know, I remember, like, people used to, like, when, before cannabis was legalized in most states, people used to hold up places like the Netherlands in Portugal for decriminalizing possession of recreational drugs. And it's like, yeah, it worked. Like, in those states, it really worked really well. Recidivism went down, relapses went down, HIV transmission rates went down, because all, because they weren't criminalizing, you know, a disease such as addiction, but what they also did was made sure those people had access to services like housing, right? Like if you want to really

change the way things are going to, something as simple as having access to housing is one of the most determinative factors as whether or not someone recidivates. If, because if you're homeless and you don't have access to resources or a support system when times are bad, like it's hard enough getting clean and sober as it is when you've got friends and family who care about you. Now take that away. Try and get clean and sober then. And it's like try and get clean and sober because, you know, and just by saying someone, well, if you don't, you're going to go back to prison, that's not the motivation.

Like that's not going to help someone get to a place where they can be their fullest best self, you know? And some people would say, well, is it the purpose of the criminal justice system to, to help people become their bestsellers. And I would say, look, if you believe in rehabilitation, yes. Yes, absolutely. Like, you know, like we want people, we want everyone to be able, like,

like this isn't a zero-sum game. This isn't like, you know, if this person has a slice of the pie, somehow that takes away from mine. No, like this is something where people should be able to be given a chance to be the person that they, you know, that their parents hope that they could become when they were born. You know, when you look at a young kid and you think about all the promise and potential in that young person, everyone, no matter how badly you've behaved

or whatever choices you made, whatever you've done, should be given the opportunity. At least try and get back to that. You know, like, you know, I don't know if that's, that's cheesies. or if that is like, you know, a little too saccharine or whatever, maybe I'm just a bedwetting liberal who's completely like, you know, has no, you know, who's my head, heads in the cloud. But it's like when you look at like one of the things that I get frustrated, you know, you see like the way in which like particularly drug laws and how we go about, you know, enforcing them. one of the things that is incentivized to do is to get people to snitch you know and get and it's like you and all you're doing is getting poor people to turn on poor people like that's just gross to me like that is just like you're like like you're trying to get people to like you know it's like intra-class warfare you know it and and you know I don't know something about that just doesn't

doesn't feel right. And it's not solving the bigger issues at hand. No. It just adds fuel to the fire. Yeah. It's just like, you know, when you have someone in law enforcement who arrest someone who they knows who's got a drug problem and like, hey man, I'll let you out. I'll give you a PTA if you like, you know, do work for me.

Of course that person's going to say yes. You know? And it's like when really it's just like, no, we need to get that person connected to services so that they can like, you know, get treatment, get clinical care, get after care and get connected with a place to live. you know that's how you break that cycle you know like that and and and that's what people you know people deserve that you know it's like if you're going to live in a pluralistic democracy like we're ostensibly do um we should be striving to take care of the people who are not born with you know

born into places of like you know privilege like someone like like i was absolutely Thomas, thank you so much for coming on the show today. It's been an absolute pleasure talking to you. We have one more question for you for our YouTube membership program. Those that are listening on Spotify, Apple, make sure you guys subscribe on our YouTube membership page.