Locked In with Ian Bick - Former High-Ranking Mongol Leader Exposes Shocking Truth About Undercover Cops in Motorcycle Clubs | Mooch

Episode Date: September 10, 2024

Justin “Mooch” DeLoretto, a former high-ranking leader of the Mongols motorcycle club, exposes the shocking truth about undercover cops infiltrating motorcycle clubs. Mooch pulls back the curtain on the secretive world of these clubs, sharing firsthand stories of how law enforcement operates on the inside. If you’ve ever wondered what really goes on behind the scenes, this episode will reveal it all—from tactics used by undercover officers to the impact it has on the club and its members. #MongolsMC #UndercoverCops #MotorcycleClubs #BikerCulture #BikerInterview #LawEnforcementTactics #BikerLife #InsideTheMongols #ExposingTheTruth #MotorcycleClubSecrets Hosted, Executive Produced & Edited By Ian Bick: https://www.instagram.com/ian_bick/?hl=en https://ianbick.com/ Thank you to our sponsors this week: HelloFresh: For FREE breakfast for life go to https://www.hellofresh.com/freelocked for One free breakfast item per box while subscription is active. Connect with Justin “Mooch” DeLoretto: https://www.instagram.com/og__mooch/?hl=en Buy his book: https://www.amazon.com/Ride-My-Life-Street-Motorcycle-ebook/dp/B0CGRZNYCW/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?crid=3GC2XF6AU945P&keywords=the+ride+of+my+life+justin+deloretto&qid=1693860406&sprefix=%2Caps%2C103&sr=8-1 Presented by Tyson 2.0 & Wooooo Energy: https://tyson20.com/ https://woooooenergy.com/ Buy Merch: https://lockedinbrand.com Use code lockedin at checkout to get 20% off your order Timestamps: 00:00:00 - Shoutout to  @SoseTheGhost  &  @DemonsRow  00:04:10 - Family Background and Italian Heritage 00:08:15 - Chapter Leadership Roles and Responsibilities 00:12:47 - Misconceptions about Motorcycle Clubs 00:16:59 - Club Infiltration and Undercover Agents 00:21:04 - The Dangers of Undercover Work and Entrapment 00:25:11 - Challenges in Criminal Behavior 00:29:04 - Leadership Structure within Motorcycle Clubs 00:33:03 - Leadership and Titles in Motorcycle Clubs 00:36:59 - Changes in Motorcycle Club Policies 00:41:09 - Club Events and Involvement in Biker Culture 00:45:30 - Legal Troubles and Supportive Family 00:49:34 - Making Tough Decisions in the Club 00:53:35 - Facing Ego Challenges 00:57:48 - Focus on Intervening Early in Teenagers' Lives 01:01:56 - The Impact of a Felony on Career Opportunities 01:06:00 - Book Promotion and Connectivity Powered by: Just Media House : https://www.justmediahouse.com/ Creative direction, design, assets, support by FWRD: https://www.fwrd.co Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The 26th National Sports Collectors Convention is almost here, July 29th through August 2nd in Rosemont, Illinois, just outside Chicago. This is the ultimate collector's experience with over 1,000 dealers, 100 plus superstar athlete signing autographs, and more than 100,000 fans all under one roof. From vintage and modern sports cards to Pokemon memorabilia live breaks and can't miss trade nights, this is the biggest show in the world. Buy, sell and trade at every level of the hobby. Get your tickets now at NSCC Show.com and we'll see you this summer at the National, the world's largest cardboard candy store.

Mooch, welcome to Locked in. Shout out to So's the Ghost for making this happen and flying you out here today. And a big shout out to Rick Flair and Wu Energy. You just tried what the pineapple one? Yeah, it's delicious. I'll be sipping it throughout the show. Yeah, well, take some for the road, too. Those things are so good.

Yeah, they're awesome. It's crazy. And I love how they have a diverse range of flavors. You're going to have to try some of the other flavors. But I hope you had a safe flight. And you're here, so you've got a safe flight. Yeah, it wasn't too bad. I was just thinking today was they had those outages.

So your flight didn't get affected by that? I hope my flight home isn't. Last night, there was a lot of, from thunderstorms in Atlanta. There was a lot of delays. So I had two delays coming out here. I didn't get into like two in the morning. Holy cow. Were you in a hotel?

Yeah. Okay. When do you fly out today or tomorrow? 7 a.m. tomorrow. Out of Hartford. Did you stay in Hartford for the airport? Yeah, yeah. You know, a $100 Uber ride to get out here.

Holy cow. Well, we'll reimburse you for the Uber ride. Oh, thanks. Yeah, I'll take care of that for you. I appreciate it. Yeah. But yeah, the whole, I woke up this morning to all the news for the outage on, what's it called, Microsoft. I saw that.

Yeah. So I didn't even think of it. I was like, oh, he's flying in. He might have problems. Yeah, that's my luck. Thankfully, I missed it, man. I mean, hopefully it doesn't affect my ride home. I've been trying to check into my flight and I haven't been able to, so I wonder if that's why.

Oh, yeah. What airline? Delta. Okay. Yeah, I've been using Delta, but I've been having the worst travel luck lately. Oh, man. I feel like ever since COVID, traveling. been brutal. It really is. Flights are longer. Things are delayed all the time. You know,

they oversell flights. I mean, everything's just been rough, I think, since COVID. Yeah, absolutely. So where did you grow up? It wasn't Georgia, right? Right. Yeah. No, I grew up in Salem, Oregon, about an hour outside of Portland. And after high school, I moved to Portland, live there for most of my life. And then in 2017, well, so lived in San Diego, Southern California for a while. I did my undergrad at Whittier College. So I lived, I spent like a year and a half in the East Los Angeles. And then 2017, I moved in to Southern Illinois right outside of St. Louis. And then just recently I moved to Savannah, Georgia. Oh, wow. So Oregon, not a lot of guests come on the show from there. I mean,

we had JD Delay who we were talking about, and maybe one or two, but it's so far out there. Yeah. What was that like growing up there? Man, Oregon was cool. I think it's, you know, everyone hears about Portland. They see all the stuff in the news, and I think that's a different city than it was when I grew up. You know, it's pretty cool. You know, it's an hour to the beach, an hour to the mountains. You know, it's one of the most beautiful states you can be in. It rains a lot and I think, you know, living there for a long time, that gets a little tough. But I loved it, man. I really enjoyed it. I have an identical twin brother and most of my family lives there, so I get back and visit quite a bit. So you guys look exactly

like born at the same time? Yep, seven minutes apart. Holy cow. Do you guys have the same personality? No, not really, but I mean, we've done all the same stuff. Like when I got into the punk rock and skin scene, he did. When I got on the biker scene, he did. And we both have a ton of tattoos, just not the same ones, but, you know, a lot of his, like, similar spots and stuff. Yeah, did it hurt the neck and the scalp? I was talking to someone recently that said this was the most painful part. The head was brutal, man. The head was brutal. My throat, like, I was really nervous about it, and it wasn't, I mean, it sucked. All tattoos, I think, hurt. But the hardest part about throat was, like, pushing on it. And, like, you know, stretching the skin and all that, that sucked.

The side of my neck hurt, but the head was brutal, dude. Yeah, I thought this would be the worst. Yes, I thought it would be too, too bad. The side, I think, was worse than the middle. You know, everyone said that this would be, this would hurt, but it didn't hurt for me at all. Yeah. Most painful was the wrist and the elbow was brutal. Yeah, elbow sucks or like the ditch inside the elbow. How was that for you? No, this was fine.

Weird. I didn't like the healing of that because, like, it was cracking. Yes, the healing. I think he had my arm like this, so it fell asleep. So it didn't hurt at all the way I was laying on the table. Yeah. I started getting tattooed. I was 16.

I'm 43 now. So it's been a long time. And I used to be able to sit, you know, for hours. And now it's like hour and a half, two hours. good dog. I'm good. Let's move on. Yeah, were you and your brother really close growing up? Was that like your best friend type of person? Yeah, I mean, we're the type of twins. Like, we don't say I love you or hug each other, but we've done everything together, you know, and it's like family trips. I always had a homeboy with me. And, you know, so yeah, we're really

close. And we've done a lot of cool things together. What do your parents do? My whole family is pretty much school teachers. So my biologic father was in prison most of my life. So my stepdad, he owned a franchise of seven-month bottling company. So he's an engineer. So he built like bottling lines. So he was in a factory all the time. And then my mom was a special education teacher. And then my grandparents were both high school teachers. And then most of my families either teachers are like sports coaches.

So would you say you guys grew up not really wanting for anything like, you know, impoverished at all? Yeah, no, things were pretty good. We were middle class family. You know, I'm an Italian background. So every Sunday was family dinners and every holiday and birthdays and, you know, big family stuff. So, you know, I had a really good family upbringing. I'd say, you know, middle class, you know, kind of working class because it was all teachers

and stuff, but yeah, we were treated well. We definitely came up well. You look like you have like an Italian mustache. Yeah, this is new. I've never had a mustache before, man. This is new for me. Oh, why did you? Why the change of heart?

I don't know. I turned 43 and I said, this is me the month of the mustache and I still have it. Well, they say mustaches are in. Yeah. That's what everyone's saying. My wife hates it. Well, I'm sure the audience is going to love it. Yeah, we'll see what they say.

You've got to appreciate a good mustache. I'm Italian, right? I've got to have one. That's so cool. I didn't even realize you were Italian. My mom's side of the family's. Italian. Oh, cool. Yeah, so we grew up doing all that, the big family dinners and the meals and it's awesome. The pasta dishes when you go over the relatives and whatnot. And you notice, too,

like Italians have to give you something whenever you visit. So you can't leave without leftovers or, I mean, little stuff. But every time you go visit somebody Italian, they're like, take this with you, or you got enough of this or, hey, try this drink. Take this wine with you. Whatever. But yeah, no, I'm lucky. I grew up like that. Most of my family immigrated from Italy to New Jersey, great grandparents. But then a lot of my family's either in New Jersey and then eventually out to Oregon. So it's kind of split between the two. Awesome. And how would people describe you if we had, say, like, your closest friend or even, we'll say your identical brother if he was here with us today. How would he describe you growing up? Man, it's funny. Like, you know, me versus now versus then probably,

but I've always been a natural storyteller. You know, I'm outgoing. I like to make friends. I've been a networker like my whole life. And then I've just really worked hard for everything I've liked. You know, I grew up playing sports. And a lot of that, you know, wrestling was a big for me. me. So a lot of that taught me like, hey, if you want to get good at something, you got to put in the work and you got to put in the effort. Like, no one was going to do it for you. And so I was 18 or 19, I started a band and ended up like, you know, managing it and promoting all the tours and it's pre-internet. So, like, you know, you couldn't just put a single out. You had a tour. So we spent five years in the road. I was booking tours. We were touring. We did, you know,

we played CBGVs and Gilman Street and all like all the cool punk venues. We did a Canadian tour. I had a felony at the time. So I took my twin brother's ID to get into Canada. But, yeah, so, you know, I just always really worked hard at what I did. you know, I've been pretty lucky. I've been pretty successful at that stuff. I would say one character trait about me is I'm good networker, not good to make a money. So for whatever reason, that's, I've never liked in that interested in, like, the hustle. Like, I'd rather meet people and have experiences than have money. So, yeah, see, like I was, I was a great, like, entrepreneurial type networker, but I couldn't make money. Like, I was good at putting everything together, like

the events, but they were, on a business standpoint, they were terrible. I'd learned later on as I got older and doing things, but back then I feel you exactly what you're talking about. And I've always been that guy that knows a guy, right? So I feel like I'm like the yellow pages. You know what I mean? Like, oh, you need something done. I got a guy for that. So, you know, I don't, you can't really profit off that. You know, I can hook people up or I got my friends. I can do it for another friend. So it's, you know, it's a great skill. But it wasn't something that had a big monetary value. Did that networking ability help you and translate over when you would get into motorcycle clubs and whatnot? Does that help that trait? Yeah, yeah. He's a

huge. So, you know, I started 2015, or 2005, I bought my first Harley, and I joined a club in 2004, well, shortly thereafter. And then I joined the Mongols in 2007. And because of all that networking and stuff, I built not only a good support network, but a lot of chapters. Like, I started most of the chapters in Oregon and Washington. I moved to the Midwest. I started, like four different states. I started chapters there. I helped start the Australian chapter of the Mongols. And that was all through connections and networking and people I'd stayed in touch with over the year. some from touring and, you know, some from just people I meet on the road or whatever. So when you start a chapter, does that make you, like, the head of that group?

Or how does that work? Yeah, it kind of depends. Like in Portland, or the first chapter we start in Eugene, was in Eugene, Oregon, 2007. And everyone gets, like, the positions are elected. So I was elected president. But, yeah, I mean, if you're the active outgoing guy that's, like, putting it together and bringing the guys in, probably a good chance that you're going to get elected the president, right? But in other areas, like, so when I moved to Illinois, there was one chapter in Kansas,

he had like two members left and nobody else in Missouri. When I left, we had a full chapter in Kansas City, Lake of the Ozarks, St. Louis. So three big chapters there. But I didn't live in those areas, so I wasn't like in charge of them really. I, you know, just helped them get up, helped him get going, answer questions, you know, kind of mentor. But I wasn't like in a leadership position within those chapters. Now that role that you took on creating these chapters, is that something you wanted to do when you first joined? Or did that kind of fall into your lap?

It just happened, man. So when I decided I wanted to join the Mongols, there was no Mongol chapter. in Oregon. And so they told me, you know, I kind of came in at this like, just at the, you know, right place, right time type of thing. Like normally, if there's no chapter in your state, you're not going to be in that club, right? I came in under Doc Cavasos, who kind of was on this big recruitment drive and he was bringing people in. And I was in another club called the Vagoes. And a lot of the time, you couldn't go from Vagos to Mongols. They had an agreement. But again, it's the right place, right time where they weren't honoring that agreement.

They were bringing people in. So, no, man, my initial goal was just, say, let's just start this chapter. And I want to be a Mongol and I'm happy. And then, you know, things kind of grew from there. I started the first chapter in Oregon and no one wants to ride around with their five friends forever, right? So try to start another chapter. And then I moved up to Portland and I figured, hey, if I live here, I'm going to start a chapter. So a lot of it went to like either where I lived or where I knew people. Like Spokane, Washington, there's a group of guys from a crew called FSU that I knew from the punk rock scene.

And they were riding and wanting to hang out. And so I was like, well, hey, you know, we're all family already. Might as well join my family officially and I'd bring them in. I did that with Virginia Beach. And Australia, for example, they were in another club called the Fink's. But we had built this really good relationship on social media. We've been talking a lot. And when they decided they wanted to leave the Fink's, well, they were like, hey,

we already have this connection with Mooch. And so just that networking piece, you know, it played a big role. Hey, everyone, it's Ian. And I hope you're enjoying this podcast of Locked In because I know I am. But before we continue, I want to take a quick second to tell you about Hello Fresh, which if you've been following me on Instagram or Snapchat, You know I am literally obsessed with it and have been cooking Hello Fresh meals every night. And let's be real for a second.

Home-cooked meals are the best, but who's got time for all that planning, shopping, and prep? That's where Hello Fresh comes in, making dinner easier and stress-free. They handle the meal planning and deliver pre-portioned fresh ingredients right to your door, so no more searching for recipes or buying a whole jar of spices for just one pinch. With 50 new recipes to pick from each week, you'll never get bored. Whether you're into fit and wholesome, quick and easy, vegetarian, or family-friendly options, Hello Fresh has something for everyone. Plus, if your plans change, you can easily skip a week or switch up your delivery.

They've got you covered. So if you're ready to save time, money, and avoid those long grocery lines, especially with the holiday season coming up, Hello Fresh is your go-to each week. And guys, I'm not just shoving something down your throats that I don't even use myself. I spend my own money to order HelloFresh, and I absolutely love cooking the meals at home every night. The portions are generous, and the recipes are super easy to follow, so it's really never a hassle. Every week there's a new selection of exciting dishes to choose from, and I can create meals that are even better than what you'd get at a restaurant. For a fraction of the price, we all like to save money, so give HelloFresh a try.

It's a win all around. So for free breakfast for life, go to hellofresh.com slash free locked. One free breakfast item per box while subscription is active. That's free breakfast for life just by going to hellofresh.com slash free locked. Big thanks to America's number one meal kit for sponsoring this episode. Now let's get back into it with mooch. Now the Mongols are a pretty natural. motorcycle club.

I think there's a big stereotype. Like when I was growing up, you think of biker clubs, and people always get mad at me because I call them biker gangs, but that's just how I was raised. I'm this white nerdy kid, but they think it's just like violent, criminal,

that, but when you meet someone like you, you're not that. You're a therapist. You have a book written. What do you think are some, why these misconceptions are? And I don't think you join the Mongols to be like some, you know,

tough biker type dude. Right. Yeah, I think, you know, a lot of it is those old stereotypes, like the early Hells Angels, right? Like the stuff we'd see on, you know, your parents heard about it and the stuff we'd see on TV. And yeah, some of them were doing some illegal stuff, right? I think the way the media portrays it, too, plays a big role. But I think in reality, if you're guys like us join stuff, man, you know what I mean? Whether it was prison or street gangs or whatever, you know, we find like-minded people generally. That's human nature. And I'm riding motorcycles. I grew up in that punk rock skinhead scene, so I'd like already had that like

sense for community and family. And so I was drawn to that lifestyle. And I think that, you know, that's common for a lot of people. And I think also now, you know, motorcycle clubs are in popular media now too, right? There's movies and TV shows. And so I think that attracts a certain type of people too. But what I didn't know, and like to go back to your point is when I was in the Mongols, one of the things that got me to go back to school is I met a guy that had his PhD in clinical psychology. and he was, you know, he was a Mongol from the Hollywood chapter. And I was like, well, he could do what I can do? I can do that, you know?

Trying to think, hey, what can I do as a felon with all these, you know, all these visible tattoos? And this guy was more tattooed than me, and he was a doctor, you know. And so I met a lot of people like that in club life, in all the different clubs. And I started seeing that, you know, this is something that people are doing for fun. But obviously, it's a lifestyle, right? So it's not just like a hobby. But they also have careers and families and all the same thing everyone else in life has. But people just ignore that or don't recognize that, I think.

And I think that you touched on the tattoos, they do associate the tattoos with the felony. Then you mix that in with being a part of a pretty notorious club and people form an opinion. Yeah. And you know what? I've always been that guy that I like challenging those opinions. Like even when I was in Mongol leadership, you know, I knew everyone you'd walk into a bar and people would be scared. But I wanted to be when we left. They'd go, man, those Mongols were awesome.

Like, I wouldn't mess with them. But man, they were all nice, polite. Like, I always wanted to be welcome back where I went. And people, you know, sometimes I think miss the big picture. How long, like, again, networking, right? How big, how long it could help you to meet these people, be cool, have good relationships. Because who knows who's going to sit on your jury one day? Or who maybe even broken down on the side of the road and someone drives by and can give you a hand.

But that's all built off connections and how you act in public, you know. And so I really like challenging that stereotype. Like, hey, dude, they were all smiling and cool and they were all really polite versus that puffy chested. Like, do you know who you're messing with crap that, you know, I don't really put up with? Yeah, so you said you were traveling touring with the band for a few years. Did you put college on hold or skip college completely at that time period to do that? Yeah, so I started the band, I think it was 19. Man, I barely finished high school. I had like no aspirations.

Well, I just didn't know what I wanted to do. I got my felony in 1999 a month after my 18th birthday. And so that already closed a lot of doors for me. You know, I thought growing up I probably wanted to be a teacher since that's the most of my family was. But with a felony, I knew I wasn't going to be able to do that. And so I kind of jumped head first in the music scene. And I was like, well, hey, I'm just going to play punk rock. You know, whatever, I'll figure it out.

So I spent five years doing that. and then I got into motorcycle clubs and those first couple years motorcycle clubs I was just in and out of jail a lot over two years I was doing I did almost two years in county like off and on like a month two months here off month you know back and forth and at one point I walked out of jail and I'm like man I don't like this revolving door I need to do something and that's when I met richy rich he was a PhD in clinical psychology for the Mongols he was doing drug and alcohol counseling and I was like well man you know if he could do that at least drug and alcohol counseling is something I could probably do as a felon so I started going to school for that. I was 29. Yeah, it was 36 when I finally graduate from a master's degree. So I was about 28 when I started going to school. And then, you know, I just kept going. I started with that drug and alcohol counseling and fell in love with psychology. And then I ended up getting a master's degree in social work. When you were in and out of jail, were you still a part of the Mongols? Yeah. So I had this big charge in 2000. So I started the Mongols 2007 a few months later,

2008. I'm following this car that's trespassing my property, all blacked out SUV, assume it's an enemy and they wanted me to think so they even went to this other club's clubhouse and parked out front and so I followed them for close to an hour and at one point they wouldn't let me get next to them so at one point you know I'd called ahead and we were on cars and we tried to box this car in and pull it over it was an ATF agent and a local police detective so again I didn't think I did anything wrong I followed somebody but they hit me with attempted kidnapping conspiracy to commit kidnapping you know on federal agents I had a $14 million bail and they reduced it to 1.4, but I fought the whole thing from, from jail, because I wasn't going to get bonded out

on that. And I got found not guilty in trial. I took all the way to trial, but I did get found guilty of reckless driving and menacing misdemeanors. But they gave me felony gang probation. And part of it was I couldn't affiliate with the Mongols, including my twin brother. And me being the guy I am, I kept just living life like I normally would. And I got caught numerous times because we had some informants in the chapter, which I didn't know out the time. And so they were telling on me. So every time I got caught, I'd go back for a month or two. at a time. Wait, so you went to, you took the feds to trial? Yeah, yeah, I won, dude. I did too. I took, well, I didn't win, but I won half the counts, but still went to jail. But that's

incredible that you actually went to a federal trial. Might end up being state charges. So it was against federal agent, but it was a state charge. Okay. And you know, it's interesting you bring this up because I don't know if you've heard of Johnny Mitchell. He's a very big in the space, in the prison space, big YouTuber. He just interviewed one of those undercover agents that was undercover for the Hells Angels. And I helped him with his clips. So one of the clips was that they took a Mongols vest. Yeah, Jay Dobbin story.

Yeah. And then they pretended it was, do you know who this agent is? Yeah, yeah, Jay Dobbins. Okay. They pretended to kill a Mongol so you could try and join the Hells Angels. Do you know about all that? Was that during your time period? That was before my time period.

I've read like every book there is about motorcycles and motorcycle stuff. And I've seen him on podcast and stuff. But man, it's crazy the longer I was in. So I was in during Operation Black Rain, which concluded in 2008, which was when four ATF agents infiltrated the Mongols, three of them became full patch members, and dozens of informants, and it was a huge,

I think it was the biggest, like, national bust of motorcycle clubs ever. And in fact, it was a case that just ended, like, last year, because at one of it, they tried to forfeit, try to legally take the club's patch in a civil forfeiture. And of course, that went up the ladder to, you know, Supreme Court and stuff like that.

So it was a lot, the whole time I was in the club, we were fighting this case. But I saw firsthand, like, what these undercover agents would do and it was just absolutely insane dude insane because like when I first started the mongles I knew like man maybe I'd get arrested for a bar fight or some back then I didn't even party or anything but you know some of the guys maybe some recreational drug use but I knew we weren't doing illegal stuff and I didn't know what informants were I was naive I was a 25 year old kid coming from punk rock so you know I'd think all undercovers because we'd see that stuff on TV but the guys that were

informants in my chapter were drug addicts like I had a no meth policy in my chapter and but you know we wanted to be brother. So if someone was using, we'd try and get him in a rehab or whatever. And the two guys that were informants, I took personally to rehab several times, you know, one of them supposedly tried to kill himself or whatever, who was sitting next to him in his hospital bed? Like, I was always trying to be a best brother, and this guy's getting paid four grand a month to tell on us. And since we weren't doing stuff, they were just making shit up. Well, they were getting paid. Yeah, dude. One was a federal informant, and the other was a state, but they're both getting paid between three and four grand a month. And, and, you know, they got to justify paycheck, which, I mean, that's a whole different rabbit hole,

but we both know, right? And so, you know, I would watch him instigate stuff or start stuff. Or one of them, we had a member he did 15 years in prison, got out, prospect, had joined. And this informant wanted to borrow money. So we loaned him some money. And he said, hey, I'm not, I don't feel comfortable. Just owe any money without collateral. Just hang on this pistol.

He's like, man, you know, I'm a felon. And the informant was to you. And so he didn't want anything to do with it. Because, man, I just feel better if you hang on this pistol. So he's trying to be a good brother hangs on a pistol. Boom. Phel in possession, firearm, arm career criminal, 15 years. for like and something that he wasn't out it's not like he got he bought a caught a guy selling guns you know what I mean

and that's what I saw in black rain that they would find these guys down and out maybe between jobs young kids and hey one of them was I got a box of untaxed cigarettes go flip them sell them to your friends and give me half the money well man most younger kids don't know that's a big federal offense people don't understand that and they need some cash did you bust a guy that was out doing illegal activity no you instigated it right or the guy in between jobs hey go drop this envelope off somewhere sure you might know it's something nefarious but you're not a major drug dealer you're trying to make some money and i saw them do that stuff time and time again and in fact um one of the undercovers i had met he was a hang around so he was a guy that was like trying to join the club kick it with the club and i met him in colorado at this big swap

meat and i only remember because it stuck out to me that he didn't look like a club guy kind looked like a surfer he's older didn't have the same vibe as everyone else but you know i was brand new to club life so it just kind of clicked but i didn't kind of think much of it a year or so later I'm in San Diego and a big Mongol run and he's there and he's wearing a patch we had joined. And so hey, what's up man? Good to see you again. And he goes, hey, let's go talk outside. Well, Mongols aren't allowed to fight each other. But still, when a man says, let's go outside and I don't know him, right? I'm like, okay, this is weird. So I go outside. And he says, hey, I'm going to be visiting Oregon soon. And I go, cool, where are you going to be? You know, what do you need? And he said, well, either Portland or Eugene.

Well, if you're familiar with Oregon, these are about 100 miles apart. It just happened to be where we had two chapters. Kind of weird that you're going to go out of state, not quite know where you're going to go. probably somewhere over the chapters, right? So first red flag. And then I said, well, yeah, you know, anything you need, let me know when you're out there. And what I mean by that was, hey, you need lunch, a ride to the airport, you know, brotherly stuff, right? And he goes, no, man, I got this big deal going on. Remind you, this is a stranger. And he goes, and I need some guys to carry guns and, you know, watch my back. And I said, no, man, we're good. I start walking off. And he goes, bro, I'm talking kilos. I think he said something like he wanted

to pay the guys two grand apiece. He wanted four guys. And he goes, and I'll give you the $8 grand right now. pretty huge red flags, right, even as a new naive kid. So I go up to my chapter president today. I think that dude's a cop. We tell our national. Turned out, though, he had been doing this, and he got guys wrapped up into it. And the craziest part is what had happened is he might ask me and you to do it,

say we say yes, we're standing in some hotel room, why an undercover agent is selling fake drugs to an undercover DEA agents. No crimes really being committed. But then they charge you and I with carrying a firearm in, you know, commission of a drug deal and, you know, a litany of charges. for this made-up street theater. And they caught numerous people doing that. And because they hit them with racketeering,

it's a pretty big risk to fight it, right? You're going to go sit in front of a jury and say, oh, I was just trying to back up my friend, right? Pretty big risk. And so I saw that stuff time and time again, and it made me really lose faith in, like, that whole justice system and, you know, these undercover cops that, I know I'm on a tangent.

But, you know, ideally these guys' jobs for what people like us that knew as kids is they got into these dangerous groups and they saw what was going on and they busted them. If that was all well and good, that's the game, right? But they don't. They get in there and they instigate and create and start stuff. And that's the craziest part for me, because I saw it firsthand. Now, can you, can any type of motorcycle club tell when there's a fake or a fraud or an undercover among them?

Is it easy or is it hard? I think it's hard now because, you know, the feds have everything at their disposal as far as backstop. So for me, like, I was pretty, I would never. say I recruited for the Mongols because I would never ask anyone to join my club. But what I did do is trying to have a good public persona. We'd out have fun, which would attract like mind of people. So a lot of people would see what we're doing and want to join or start a chapter. And whenever I did that, you know, you want to know who you're bringing in.

And it wasn't like, oh, I can't let cops in because I'm doing illegal stuff. But we don't allow law enforcement and you don't want someone that's going to create drama or issues. And in smaller towns, like say, I grew up in Oregon. So if I met you and you were from Oregon, I can figure out where you're from. pretty quick and who you know. And so there's no faking that, right? So I think part of that is when club started rushing to get more members and stuff, I think some of that got overlooked or, oh, this guy moved from somewhere and the world's

really not that big. And you could usually find someone that knows people. So I think that's probably the most challenging part. And then the other red flags where I'm telling you, man, they just blatantly want to commit crimes. And for me, I don't know what was like in your life, but anyone that was doing illegal stuff usually didn't go and tell a stranger about it and ask him to do it with them, you know? So those are generally the pretty critical.

pretty big red flags. Yeah, wow. So a guy like that, how I was just describing that ATF agent, the stories he's telling, that's not like current Mongol activity or any type of motorcycle club. And I think that's where a big stereotype is when you hear these stories because that compares to what you see on TV. But that's not active right now. Maybe it is in some parts, but not for the majority.

Yeah. And, you know, every club's different. So I can't speak on behalf of the Hells Angels. I can say when I joined the Mongols in 07 and 08, they made a rule that everyone had to have visible means income, full-time job. because they wanted people to stop dealing drugs. Because, you know, if we're in the same chapter and you're dealing drugs and you get caught, it makes me look bad.

It affects everybody. But, you know, these undercover guys, first of all, we got to look at the source, right? Second of all, they want to tell you how danger it was for them, you know, all this illegal stuff. Because what are they going to sit here and tell the truth? Hey, dude, we did some cocaine and had sex with chicks and rode motorcycles a lot. Like, everyone was like, oh, wow, cool. Sounds pretty fun, right? But they have to spin it their way.

And, you know, like I said, I've read all those books. And so all these informants talking about, you know, their life was on the line, but these guys are these major criminals. They have to stop. And no one's going to believe the truth because who wants to. And so I think that plays a big role. And again, I wasn't in the Hells Angels, so maybe some of his stuff seems true.

But from what I've seen of not just him, but guys like him, as a lot of times that stuff comes up in trial and the things they're saying, you know, don't have credibility. Now, you mentioned earlier that one Mongol couldn't fight another. How would you guys handle, say, a discrepancy among you two? So the thought was, there's nothing two brothers can't sit down and talk about, which I liked a lot because, you know, the more to hear about, you know, mob stuff and gang stuff and club stuff,

the one thing that always kept me away from that was infighting. You know, I want to be comfortable around my friends or my brothers. I don't want to go on this big party. I wonder if I'm going to come back, right? And so that really attracted me to the Mongols. You know, I mean, everyone's a grown man at the end of the day. So if I walked up to a Mongol in front of a bunch of people and called him a bitch or a pussy, I'm probably going to get punched in the mouth.

But other than that, the whole goal was we'd sit down and talk about it. If there's an issue, sit down like men and discuss it. Don't talk to other people. Don't go behind their back. sit down and leadership played a big role in it too was cutting it off when it started. Sit down and deal with it and move on. And so, you know, just that forced interaction

that talking to each other and being brotherly I think played a big role in that and helped out a lot. Yeah, I've known of some local clubs that they would settle beef by fighting each other, like in a circle and they bang it out until it's resolved. And so I guess that's very different in the Mongols.

Yeah, and you know, so I grew up in a traditional skinhead scene so like anti-racist skinhead gang. And it was the same. Like, hey, if you're, there was some sort of discipline to be fined out, you go in the backyard, and, you know, you're banging it out or someone's mad at you or whatever, you fight it out. And I saw firsthand that it didn't work. You know, everyone says, sure, help you up and we'll have a beer and be like, oh, good one. But resentment's a major thing, dude.

And, you know, there's too many little things that could happen. Oh, that wasn't fair. I wasn't looking or, you know, whatever. And guess what happens one day when you all of a sudden, that guy needs you for help or you need him? You might be a little late to show up or, you know, little things. things, but it causes resentment and creates a lot of issues. And so we just wanted to cut that off before it happened. And I think it says a lot, too, about the brotherhood, like something that we can sit down

and talk about because those situations you're talking about, it doesn't take long for a tough guy to be in a position of power just because people are scared to challenge him because he can beat you up. And then does that really mean he's the best guy for the job? Is that the guy we should be following just because he's a good fighter? USAA knows dynamic duos can save the day, like superheroes and sidekicks or auto and home insurance. With USAA, you can bundle your auto and home and save up to 10%. Tap the banner to learn more and get a quote at usaa.com slash bundle. Restrictions apply. You're great at protecting your data,

but lots of places could still expose you to identity theft. I thought it was safe. If that happens, LifeLock gives you a U.S.-based restoration agent who will stick by your side from start to finish. Phone calls, filing documentation, preparing insurance claims, your agent handles it all. In fact, We're so confident restoration is guaranteed. Pour your money back. Isn't it nice to have someone like that on your side? Save up to 30% your first year at lifelock.com slash podcast. Terms apply.

I think there's a lot of inherent issues with that type of mentality. Do you guys consider it like tattletailing if one member reports it to leadership? Or does leadership want to be left out of it? Or how does that work? I mean, that's a slippery slope for sure, right? Like, you know, say you've got a chapter president that's being a dictator and kind of bullying everyone. Well, who's going to be the guy that goes tells my.

mother chapter about it, right? Like, yeah, that's rat behavior. Um, mother chapter would obviously want to know. But I think the other part too is these things, it's hard for these things to happen if we're all spending time with each other hanging out being as active we're supposed to because then we'll just see it. So like, you know, say that chapter was never attending events and they were doing their own thing. Mother chapter is someone to probably come and sit down and see, well, why aren't they active? Why aren't they showing up? And those things usually come to the surface. So I think, yeah, it's good to kind of build that environment of that this isn't okay, but not that it's okay to go tell on someone for doing it either.

Like at the end of the day, be a man, right? If you don't like how this guy's talking to you or you think he's being a dictator, follow the proper chain of command, stand up in church and say something about it, you know, have a voice. And at some point, the truth's going to come to the surface, you know, no matter what. Now, do you guys have, like, a list of principles that you had to memorize and maybe even recite and follow strictly in your life? Yeah, so motorcycle clubs are crazy strict.

And especially the Mongols, they were like militantly strict. And that was something that I was known well for in my leadership position is I really liked the structure. So we had a lot of rules. So there was the commandments, which were essentially how everyone should live their life. Don't steal from a brother. Don't mess around with a brother's old lady. Don't ever cause a brother to get arrested. Those types of things.

Don't tell on a brother. You know, the types of stuff that I feel like is just man shit anyways. And then there's a constitution, which are the rules for everyone in the club. and then each chapter has their own specific bylaws. So, I mean, there's like three different levels of rules, right, that everyone had to follow. But most of it was like, like I said, stuff that you would expect anyways. When it came down to chapter stuff, it was more of that like, let's stop things before they get bigger. So, you know, don't talk bad about a brother behind his back.

You know, whatever you would say about somebody should say it to their face. But all the types of things that I think, you know, are traits that people should have anyways, it's just enforced. Is there like a physical like handbook or a leadership book that someone came? carries around with them? Yeah, the secretary treasurer carries the constitution with the, has the chapters bylaws, the club's constitution, and the commandment. So each chapter's treasury has a copy of it. And who wrote that?

Is that like the initial founder of the Mongols? So the initial guys created probably the early version. And then anytime it's going to be updated or change, it has to happen by like an all president's meeting. So all the leaders. So, you know, every new leadership change and stuff, they make some amendments or things change or, you know, just evolve with time. But it's all the leaders of the whole club get together.

to do it. So not just one guy can say, hey, we're not doing this anymore or this is going to change. So it's the whole club's voice or opinion, essentially. Now, when you say leadership, do you mean president or do you mean like vice president, is that considered in leadership or is it just strictly? That type of thing, it would be like a president's meeting. So it was all the chapter presidents would get together. But the way the Mongols were kind of structured is each, you know, each chapter had its own leadership, which I think similar to all clubs or, you know, the secretary treasurer or sergeant-in-arms

president. But then I developed a program actually called the regional rep program. So then there would be someone either in the state or in your region, say the Northwest or whatever, that kind of oversaw all the local chapters and then reported back to mother chapters. So kind of a liaison. So not necessarily like a boss position to an extent, but you're making sure that everyone's following the rules and you know, doing what they're supposed to be doing. And that way, you know, the Mongols mother chapter is located in Southern California. And when I first joined, most of the whole club was in California. So, you know, I'm here. I'm in Oregon, a long way away, really. And when chapters started popping up in other states, it was hard to get making sure everyone was on the same page or

following the same rules because maybe there's one guy in Oklahoma that's reporting to another chapter. Well, they're only going to know what he's telling them because it's not like they're out there all the time. They're not active. And we were seeing all this disparity on like the truth versus what's really going on. And so having someone that's been in long enough that can like play that kind of, you know, authoritative role and oversee what's happening in our region played a big role. So then there's that regional rep or state reps and then the club's mother chapter, which is their initial chapter. And then so that it was a national P, national SARS, that type of stuff. When you're saying your Mongol leadership, does that put a target

on your back with law enforcement? Absolutely. That's, it's a funny thing to me where people, this day and age, people want that title. I call it like the Jacks Teller Syndrome, right? They want to have the tab that says president. And I've always thought the people that want the position probably aren't the right people for it, right? The good leaders usually end up there because of their ability to lead. But what people don't understand what comes with leadership is that's a huge one. And towards the end of my club career before I retired, people were asking me to run for national president. And I would tell them, I go, sit up here at the next all members meeting and tell someone, anyone in the crowd, raise your hand if you used to be a national president.

I go, it's not going to happen because they're either in prison, dead or they got ran off due to politics or something, you know, but there's no longevity in that leadership style. So there's so much that comes with it that you've got to be a little crazy to even want to do it, to be honest. or think about it just with your personality just to test to see if you can make it to that level? Or was it just never an interest? I'm honestly, I never had interest in leadership at all. I just, I feel like the right guy should be doing the job.

And I'm, like I said, I'm very, like, strict and structured. And so, you know, say it created a program, I want to see it through. Or if I help start a chapter in that area, I'd have a pretty big say in what they're doing or what's going on. So it was more like, oh, I was in charge of that region because I started most of those chapters. and I had personal connections with those guys versus like, oh, I want to say that I have this title or that title. Now, when you were in your leadership position, did you have guys start going out and doing podcasts? Did this world exist back then? Or do you think this has all changed recently?

It's all pretty new, man. And most clubs have rules like the active members can't do it. I do know, like before I left the club, there was a guy or two that had done it without asking permission and they got in trouble and, you know, little stuff like that. But no, it definitely wasn't a big thing yet. I think when I joined in 2007, there were some ex-members that the old leader Doc had thrown out. And they had nowhere to like air their grievance like they have now, right? And so there was like a history channel, remember like gang lands or any of those types of shows. That's where these ex-members would pop up and talk about club stuff.

But now, you know, it's all over YouTube and all over. So I think that's all pretty new. And then when you leave and when you retire, you're free to do any of that kind of within reason? So if you retire, and again, I can only speak on behalf of the Mongols because I don't know everyone's different. But when you retire from the Mongols, you get to like keep your patch. You can still like show up to events and wear your club stuff. And so, you know, you still have to answer to leadership. So no, if you were retired and you'd want to do something like this, you'd have to get some sort of approval. You know, same thing. If you're writing a book or whatever,

you're supposed to get mother chapters approval. You're supposed to get approval to be on shows. But once you're, if you're out or out bad, well, I mean, you're already not following the rules, right? So it is what it is. So it just kind of depends on your situation. So when you wrote your book, you had to ask permission for that? I was already out bad by then. So my status got changed out bad. But I will say, so I was in when Junior wrote his book and in when Doc wrote his book. And it was somewhat similar where Doc had told Doc was in leadership.

So he probably thought he could do what he wanted. But he had told everyone he was writing this book. And the club essentially said, well, let us read it first. And then we'll decide. And then if you're, my biggest thing is the Mongol's biggest commandment is not to profit off your patch, right? And I'm not saying this to talk bad about anyone else. But if I wrote a book and it just said, you know, the life and times of a mongle, people are going to buy it because of it says mongle, not because they know who mooch is.

And if you're going to, if the club agrees to that or sanctions that, then I would assume you should probably kick some money back to the club because you're profiting off their name and their patch. But some of the people that wrote books didn't do that. And so, you know, their status got changed and maybe it's different now. But I didn't want to do that. So, you know, even if I was out bad or not, I wanted my book to be based off me. Like being a Mongol is a part of my story, but it's not my whole story. And so my title has nothing to do with the Mongols.

Obviously, I talk about the club in the book, but that's not my selling point. And so I think when it comes to writing books and stuff, that's always kind of like that weird, weird spot too. Like you can do it respectfully, which still probably piss people off because you're talking about club life, right? Or you can try and profit off somebody else's name and logo. So out bad, what does that compare to like dishonorably discharged or is that the reference? I think so. So that is also, everything's changed, right? With time, the motorcycle clubs are getting so big and evolving so much that, you know, things keep changing. Initially, if you left from the club, there was either retired, out in good standings, or out in bad standings. When I first joined, if you were in for more in five years, you could retire. And then if say something like, hey, dude, you just had a kid and maybe you're going through divorce, now you're a single dad. You know, there's a lot of reasons where, okay, now I can't devote all my time to the club. You show up to church. to explain it. And, you know, a lot of times we're all supposed to be brothers, right? We'd say, okay, you're right. Your focus should be on this. And we let them leave in good standings.

But after those big raids in 2008, we lost a ton of members. And there was other stuff going on to. And they had changed the rule that you had to be in for 10 years before you could retire. And then, as people were still quitting, for what, I don't remember what even the selling point of this was, but we all voted for it, that if you haven't been in for 10 years and you quit, you're automatically out bad. Well, before, out bad was like, you stole from someone or you told on somewhere, you know, you violated a major rule. Now we water it down by saying, well, they're out bad, but just because they quit.

So it's almost like they were creating different levels of out bad. I know that's not quite the case, but that's like the easiest way to say it, right? There's the guy that, yeah, he's out bad because he, you know, he stole a bunch of money from the club. But so is this guy, but all he did was he quit before he had his 10 years in. Yeah, it just sounds negative. Yeah. It's like a negative connotation. So when people hear about it, in reality what it is now, it's a no contact.

So it's not like I get asked all the time, oh, you can leave club, you can leave motorcycle clubs. And man, in my years, I saw way more people leave than joined. It happens. I mean, if you really think about it, it's like anything else, a lot of younger people join or get excited. And then life happens, right? You go back to school. You have a family. You get a good job.

People fizzle out all the time. And people didn't comprehend you can just up and leave. But the other part, too, is I think, you know, if you're on the legal side or you understand, if I force you to stay in something, you don't want to be a How can I trust you to be my brother? Right? And so there's a lot of different versions that are, you know, different angles. But the reality now is out bad just mainly means no contact. So like, you know, active members of the Mongols aren't supposed to talk to me or hang out with me,

which is a bummer, but it is what it is. But people aren't like actively out trying to beat me up or look for you or that type of stuff. Did you guys see a lot of people joining and realizing they couldn't keep up with the resume and what it entailed and the policies and then they would leave? Absolutely. That was huge, you know, especially younger guys. Or a big one for me would be a guy's going through divorce. He feels like he's got nothing.

So he wants to join the club. And normally I wouldn't take those guys because I know what happens. When their life gets back to on track, what do you think is the first thing they dump is? Well, now I'm married again or I've got this good job. So finding that right person at the right time is a big deal. But yeah, it's super common because people either join because they're looking. They need something or, you know, they're young and they're naive or, you know, like me. I was just 25 years old riding a motorcycle.

I was like, I want to be in a club. I didn't even think long term, you know. What about women? Can women join? No. I mean, so there's clubs for women, but no women can join the Mongols. Do you think that'll ever change? I doubt it because just like, you know, they also have the rule. No, African Americans in one of the major one percent are clubs. Now, there are mixed-race clubs, and there's other clubs that haven't.

But, you know, the main old-school ones don't. And a lot of it comes down to prison politics is a huge role. But, you know, times change. I think thoughts and stuff are changing. But who wants to be the first club to do it? You know, you think the Mongols want to say, oh, we're the first ones that led, a woman in. I don't mean to sound chauvinistic, but we know how that's going to go.

And this is, you know, a world of alpha males, you know, in a tough culture. No one's going to want to be that guy. Yeah. I think they are starting to display it more in, like, movies. They're, or TV shows. They're bringing in, like, that woman-type biker into it. I wonder if that will have any influence over it. Yeah, I don't know, because, you know, like, Sons of Anarchy, it was very female-driven,

you know? But in reality, you know, the old ladies usually don't get told a lot about club stuff. And like for years, I didn't even bring mine to club events or stuff like that. I mean, it depends, too. It is a family. So once they get to know each other, all the old ladies get to know each other, you know, then everyone wants to hang out too. But they're normally left in the dark, just like any other civilian or someone that's not a patchholder is.

So like seeing them being more actively involved, it would take a specific, like that someone would be going out to try and do that. And again, I don't know which club would want to do that first. Why do they call it an old lady? I've heard guests refer to their girlfriends or wives as that. And growing up, I never heard that. It's funny because I really don't know. So I think, you know, it's just an old term like, oh, the old lady, you know.

But it's big in the biker scene. Being a social worker, it's funny because I don't like any of that type of stuff. So it's like, it's funny. That's like a word that I say because normally I wouldn't choose to say it. But that's just, I mean, that's the definition. It's what they use. It's what everyone, you know, it's recognized. And it's O-L-E or O-L-D?

Yeah, O-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-D. Oh, just O-L-L-L-L-L-L-D. Oh, interesting. The old lady. Now, you had some gang activity from your past. Did that affect you joining the Mongols? Were they upset about that? Do they allow that?

Yeah, it's definitely allowed. So it's almost like a graduate level, right? Like I spent time doing street gang stuff. And again, I wasn't like a skinhead punk rock gang. So I wasn't like out selling drugs or anything like that. But, you know, we were in a violent street gang. And then, you know, you get older, you're trying to stay out of trouble, but you still want that like sense of belonging and stuff.

And motorcycle club is kind of like that next natural step. And so there's a lot of guys, especially California and stuff, that live that gang life, slow down, and end up joining a club. So that's super common. Now, when you go to prison or you go to jail, what are you rocking? Like, are you saying you're with the Mongols? Or are you saying you're with a street gang? What holds up more and more weight? That's probably a tough.

In theory, you're supposed to always say, I'm here with the Mongols, right? The Mongols are in a difficult position because they're primarily Hispanic with white guys. And so, you know, the Hispanic brothers go in, they have obligations or are supposed to, you know, align with certain sides. For the most part, thankfully, I've avoided prison. But for the most part, at least the guys I know, at least in the feds, is there's a lot of bikers in the feds and they usually just stick together. So, you know, I hate roll with the Mongols and they go roll with the pagans or outlaws or whoever else is there. But that is a sticky topic. Like it, as you know, there's a lot of different layers to that one.

Yeah, I mean, when I saw in the feds, there's so many. like you have your cars where it's by state, but then you have within the cars, you have different groups like you would have a biker, you would have like the Italians who would be from certain states, but they would kind of be joined together. It's very intricate. Yeah, and that's from what I saw for the most part is the Mongols rolled with the biker car. And it was less, I mean, obviously most of it was still white. But I think where it gets difficult is like the Hispanic members that, especially on the West Coast that are, you know, get asked to run a specific program and what are you supposed to.

say, no, I'm a Mongol, so I can't speak on that because I thankfully haven't had to deal with it, but I do know that it's a challenge and it's definitely, there's a lot of politics going to that. Now, in just regular county jail, were they separating different bikers, like the groups, if they had, say, like a Hells Angel and a Mongol in the same facility? I think so. And again, state by state's really different. Like Oregon, man, it was pretty, pretty chill. I did, I've done a ton of county time. And, you know, it didn't matter, like, who you roll with or anything. It was chill. Once that, the allowed of time I spent there. when I was older was because of that crime against cops.

And because of that, I was on 23-and-a-hour day, single-cell lockdown anyway. So there was no one to roll with. But then you go, say, like, L.A. County or somewhere in Southern California. And then it's going to be a different animal, too. So it kind of depends on the state. Why do you think those violations you got with the undercovers reporting that you were associating? Why do you think you didn't get a significant amount of time? Because people get, you know, that have felonies can get years for those type of violations.

So I got found not guilty of all the felonies. So I was on misdemeanor probation, but with the gang enhancement stuff like the non-associations. And so my initial goal was I was on five years probation. So the most they could do, which was what my fingers crossed at the time was, can violate all of them. And I'd have to do that five years. But with the jails overcrowding everything else, I knew, you know, maybe I'd go in there for a year and a half, get kicked out. And you're cool, no more paper. But the judge is onto that too, right?

So whenever I violated, she would violate one count. at a time. And so it would probably take me five years to still go through it. But there's only so much they can do on misdemeanor stuff. So they couldn't, they couldn't add time or anything like that. They could only do it up to how much time I had left on my probation. Did you have a paid attorney or a public defender? Yeah, no, I spent a lot of money. Do you think that you would have the same outcome if you had a Absolutely not, man. There's no way. I mean, you know, I had law enforcement out to get me. I watched them lie on the witness stand. You know, this is big, it was in the media all the time.

I was on the news because it was this, you know, a law motorcycle gang member tries to kidnap cops or force cops off the road. So imagine what the jury thought, right? And no, without a good attorney, I would have been screwed for sure. Yeah, you don't really hear of many of those cases being able to win. No, I mean, I'd probably still be sitting there. Plus, I think we also both know from that system

is public defenders just want to get you a plea bargain. And so if I'm saying, hey, I'm fighting this, I'm going to trial, I don't think I would have had a very good outcome. Yeah, what did your parents think about all this between the gang activity and then joining such a notorious club. What were their thoughts? Man, not stoked. But I have a very supportive family.

So, like, they were the ones who helped me pay for my attorney. I couldn't have done that without them. My mom and my aunts and uncles were at, like, every one of my trial. My trial was, like, a week and a half long. They were at every hearing. So super supportive. I'm sure they wished I wasn't doing it, right? But they were also helpful when they could.

And, you know, they started to get to know more of the Mongols and, like, at my wedding and a place like that. There was obviously club guys there, and so they get to know my mom. So the more she met people, she saw it wasn't what everyone thinks, and she saw, like, you know, the human side to it. And I wouldn't say she was like amped, but she was supportive of me. So she kind of had to support it, right? When I left, she was very happy. So do you think her seeing the brotherhood family aspect really helped and change things?

Absolutely, because I think, you know, coming from our upbringing and family meaning so much, seeing that I always had people with me or any time I needed help, you know, It was never alone. And so I think she liked seeing that too. You know, if I was hurt somewhere, someone was with me. If I needed a ride, someone was there. Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile, the message for everyone paying big wireless way too much.

Please for the love of everything good in this world, stop. With Mint, you can get premium wireless for just $15 a month. Of course, if you enjoy overpaying, no judgments, but that's weird. Okay, one judgment. Anyway, give it a try at mintmobile.com slash switch. Up front payment of $45 for three-month plan equivalent to $15 per month required. Intro rate first three months only, then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra.

See full terms at mintmobile.com. I always had so much support that I think she liked seeing that. Why'd you ultimately decide to leave? So I was in 15 years. Times changed a lot. Our leadership changed. You know, little Dave had just gotten thrown out. There was all this internal power vacuum, essentially.

Some people were really pushing me for me to run for National President, which, again, I wasn't really going to do, but it also put a target on my back. Some of the new guys that were in leadership weren't a fan of our last leader. And because I was, you know, in the active national leadership, I worked a lot with Little Dave. So I think that kind of put a target on my back. I just started to see like the writing on the wall was part of it. The other part is I was burnt out, man, you know, 15 years. I'd started these chapters.

We were really close with another club in Illinois and that relationship had changed. And I'd been notified by law enforcement. There was a contract out on me, which that's happened to me twice. and honestly, that sounds dramatic. Usually I don't believe that. I think it's like TV hype. I know what happens, but I just, I didn't take it super seriously, but it's an extra level of stress.

What does that mean, a contract out? Like, there's such a sub club's trying to kill you, or they're out. Essentially, if law enforcement notifies you, they have to have, supposedly, they have to have credible knowledge that it's a real threat, and they're at a duty to warn. And so that's happened to me twice over club years. First time I was like, yeah, this is, because, you know what they do after they tell you that is they give you their card and say, if you ever need you, think it was a call.

So I was like, oh, yeah, that's the feds trying to get me to talk to him. But the last time it was local law enforcement. And that didn't play a role in me quitting, but it was just another layer to it, you know. One of the close members that I brought into the club recently was murdered. Another guy that I was friends with in another club just got murdered. This was all like in a couple months. So there's this power vacuum going on. I'm burnt out.

Two close friends of mine just get killed. Now I've got law enforcement saying, I might get killed. And it's started getting to the point that I was like, man, I don't. I didn't align with the morals and values of this new leadership. And I don't mean that in a bad way. I think the club seemed happy. And I got to the point of, am I going to be, there's always that generation that are like, back in my day. And I was like, am I turning into that guy?

You know, am I selfishly trying to hold on to what's left for me or is it what's best for the club? And so it really just kind of aligned. It was like, this is a time for me to step away. And so I initially stepped away and retired in good standings because of, I think, some of my political influence and elections were coming. up and stuff like that. They were trying to make it so people couldn't contact me or talk to me because they didn't want my influence. And then my specific chapter, so I started this chapter in Southern Illinois, and there was six of us. One of the members had just gotten arrested for beating

up a member of the outlaws. And a member of the outlaws had cooperated and testified. So he got five years to spend in sentence. So if he, any violation, he goes to prison for five years, or I think it was three years. Yeah, three years spent sentence. And part of his stipulations too were no association in the club. So if he got caught hang out of the club, so he got caught, club, he could go to prison for three years. What made it difficult was his blood brother was in our chapter, his roommate was in our chapter, and his co-worker was in our chapter. And we all did jiu-jitsu together, worked out together. So it was very tight-knit, small area. And they mainly joined because they had met me. They didn't know a lot of Mongols at the time. They met me. We all

were having fun. And then, you know, they traveled. They got to know Mongols. But it was, we had a really tight-knit thing going. So now I'm retired. And now Mike can't be in the chapter. And so the remaining three or four guys are like, do what? I don't know. I don't know, if we should stick this out or should we take a step back and maybe when mic's off paper, we can come back. So they left. Well, they didn't have their time in to be out in good standings. Typically, in that situation, under different leadership, we probably would have weighed the pros and cons.

Do we want to shut down a whole chapter? Should we give them? It made sense why they were leaving, right? But it was a political move. And the guys in another chapter said, hey, we're going to advocate for you that these guys are in good standings. Because I was pretty vocal about it. I said, if you put these guys out bad, that means, because if you're out bad, and I hang out with you, then I'm out bad.

And I kind of knew that was going to be the play, right? So I said, if you guys put them out bad, you know I live in this tiny town. These are like some of my best friends. We train together. It's going to put me out bad. And they're like, oh, we're going to advocate that we don't. But they did. They put them out bad.

And they called me and they said, hey, you're still in good standings. But if you get caught hanging out with these guys, you're out bad too. And just being the man I am, I just said it right over the phone. Like, hey, I'll do respect, guys. Like, these are my friends. And I'm going to keep hanging out with them. And they said, well, then you're out bad too. message out that just said, Mucci has moved on with his life. He's no longer a member,

but he's out in bad standings. Just kind of a contradictory text, but that's what happened. What is it? Like a group text? Yeah, yeah, like a group thread. Yeah. To everyone in the country, all the Mongols? Yeah. Wow. That said, hey, Moutch has no longer a member, which normally it would have left at that, right? Moutch's no longer a member. He's moved on with his life. But I was out bad. So then I had to say that in there, too. And so that's when things kind of changed, like who could talk to me, who can't talk to me. But it also opened up the doors for me to do stuff like this to write my book. I mean, there was a lot of positives that I took out of it too.

How'd that make you feel, though, after 15 years of dedicating yourself to an organization to... It was rough, man. It was rough. And the hardest part, too, is... And this is pretty natural. But anytime there's leadership changes, programs change, things change, you know, whatever, things were put in a place. And like I said, I'd started that state rep program and started the... There was a Mongols have a support club called the Raiders, which had already existed. But I had built the program up so that other states could have it.

And now there's Raiders in Thailand and Australia. So it was something I played a big role in. And so seeing things that I was helped start get changed or like push to the side or like that state rep program that I started, all of a sudden a guy from L.A. is overseeing Tennessee and a guy from Southern California is overseeing Missouri. And all the stuff that I had changed that went backwards. So that was really hard. And then, you know, the toughest part in human nature is that when I was in a position of leadership, I thought I had a lot of friends. and when I wasn't,

it wasn't necessarily that I was even Bungley weren't talking to me. It was people that started talking shit, right? Like, I ran a tight program, and when they got the accolades for it, everyone was proud to say, oh yeah, I was in the mooch program

or oh yeah, from Oregon. And now those same guys are like, oh, yeah, he didn't know what he was doing and F that, and that's the part that sucks, you know?

And that's just more, I guess, blow to the ego. I don't know. Because I would like to think I don't have a big ego. And it's not that I want any paths on the back

for stuff I did in the club life, but I wasn't that guy that like, hey, I quit and I want to see it all burned down, I want to see it still do well. I want to see those chapters I help still grow and do well. And to not have that, like, at least small level of acknowledgement, like, oh, yeah, he's out bad. We won't talk to him. But to not talk shit because they wouldn't be there if it wasn't for me. That's a hard part.

Yeah. How did your wife and her family treat you when they first found out that you're in a motorcycle club and your past? So my wife's mom is amazing. And I think she was just, she saw how I treat her daughter. and she got to know me on a good level and really supported me. But I'm sure initially wasn't stoked, right? My wife is a bartender or was a bartender. Now she has her master's degree in dietetics and nutrition.

But at the time, she was a bartender, and that's how we met. She's 10 years younger than me. So I'm sure her family was like, what is she doing, hang out with this older biker. But similar to like the situation with my mom, you know, when she got to actually get to know the guys and see how tight we all were and kind of see the positives to it, she was supportive for sure. Yeah, because you know there is a stigma. America, specifically from a woman's side with the family when, you know, they're that the woman,

their daughter is with someone that's been incarcerated or is involved in criminal activities. So sometimes the family kind of pushes who that person or person is deep down, their character aside because they're looking at just the outside. Absolutely. And especially with club stuff because we hear those eight, the age old, you know, stories that, oh, they're getting abused or they're getting turned out or they have to sleep with all the members and, you know, none of these things. are true, but, you know, that's what popular culture has told us about motorcycle clubs for so long.

So I think the trick was really getting to know us and seeing it and kind of seeing that how I treated her daughter and how happy her daughter was. And even for my wife, you know, being around and meeting the guys and meeting the guys' wives and really starting to see like the family vibe of it. What do you start to do with your life post the Mongols? I know you wrote a book if you want to tell the audience a little bit about that and where they could find that. And then I also love for you to tell the audience about what you do now and how your past experience, involved, you know, with getting into trouble and in the motorcycle club in general helps you in your current role.

Yeah. So at first it was a little tough. You know, I went from dedicating 95% of my life to something for most of my adult life, you know, I was dedicated to this motorcycle club and actively working on or doing something. And so that downtime was tough for a minute. So I tried to replace it with positive things. So like my jiu-jitsu team played a huge role in helping me move forward. I felt like I still had brothers and family because it was guys I was training with.

I was close with. I started a group called lift train ride, which is in a motorcycle club, which is kind of a lifestyle. It was a lot of the ex-members. You know, we work out together three or four days a week. We do jujitsu or some sort of martial art together. And then every month we plan a big group ride. And once a year we do like a big, like a long ride.

So kind of the positives of club life without any of the BS and the drama. So I started that kind of helped. I started that. I started a podcast called Mondays with Moutch where I get on there and just kind of tell my story and interview people. And talk about club stuff. Sometimes I answer viewer questions about like, you know, what's it like to prospect or, you know, the random things we see that people ask about. But the biggest thing is I wrote a book called The Ride of My Life, and it's exactly that.

It's my story from growing up with my family to being in a punk rock man and touring the country to getting into motorcycles. And then it ends with me getting, you know, getting my master's degree in social work and with what I do now. And I think that's the piece that's been super rewarding and cool is what I do now is I work with teenagers. that are at risk of being placed outside of the home or into detention. They all have antisocial behaviors that getting them in trouble, essentially. And I go into the home and I work with them and their parents, primarily at the parents, and we try and teach these different skills that the big thing with the social work system right now is people come in and do something for you and then they leave.

And then these people get dependent on the system. And with what we do is we teach the caregivers these skills that when we're no longer in the home, they can still replicate them. And a lot of it is parenting stuff, you know, increasing supervision and consequences and rewards and, you know, just a lot of things that are missing in hopes that we can get these kids that are young, teenagers, out of trouble and get them on the right track before it's too late, before they are someone like me that had, you know, had that felony that stuck with them almost their whole life and, you know, try and get in and intervene before these things happen. So that's where a lot of my focus is now. Were you looked at weird while going through school? Were your colleagues looking at you in a different way or maybe even treating you differently? Absolutely.

So like I said, I think I was 28 or 29 when I went back. I had Mongols tattooed huge on the back of my head. I went to small liberal arts colleges. So I was at Whittier College. It was a bunch of like 18 and 19-year-old kids that just graduated high school living in the dorms. And then even when I went back to O'Donimitt and then I graduated from George Fox back in Oregon. And so, yeah, I mean, some of the cases, when you're just, I got into my mid-30s and stuff, I was the same age as the professors, you know.

But I also think the field I chose with social work, and I think people are really starting to recognize that who better to work in this field than someone that understands it, right? Like, if I go and sit down with a family that's navigating the legal system, I don't have to tell them my story, but they know I understand it. And I think that plays a huge role that, you know, they know that I'm there going with them, going through this with them versus telling what it should be like and have no idea. And that same thing when I go into this field with a felony with all these tattoos, I was like, how am I going to get a job? But I've used it as a strength. Like most of therapy is about the therapeutic rapport. And I walk in and meet these teenagers and they already know they're not going to get away with shit. They're not going to BS me, right?

And I don't have to tell my story. It's not relevant. But they could read me and know that at least I can understand or comprehend what they're going through. So I think that's all been super positive and played a big role. I did sue the state of Oregon during my internship. So first second internship I got offered was to be a counselor at that juvenile detention center, the Oregon Youth Authority, and had to do some training. And then I was going to start. I'm super excited because the population I want to work with.

And they give me an address to like, where's the training? Oblivious. Drive to this training. Look at the address. Get there. It's the Oregon State Police Academy. Right? So I'm sitting in this parking lot.

Every county, state, everyone's there training and all their new hires. And I text my wife and I was like, this is not going to go well. I'm like, I'm a little cocky, but it was like maybe I'm being too over, like most probably don't know who I am here. In reality, they were probably teaching a class about me somewhere in there because it was halfway through the day I got pulled out, fired immediately. They had this big grand scheme. I was like undercover so that, you know, like trying to recruit kids from the prison to join my gang. Kids that don't have motorcycles that are six. I mean, ridiculous, right?

They think I spent eight years in my life and 150 grand student loans so I can recruit kids from a juvenile detention center, right? But they openly said they fired me for being a Mongol. And my school supported me, which was really cool, George Fox University. It was awesome. And then I got an attorney and I sued them for wrongful discrimination and wrongful termination. And I won. They settled out of court. Wow.

Yeah. So that was cool. That's so cool. And it was, you know, it was an internship. So it was like, I think I won $1,000 or something. There was no monetary value in it. But the point was you can't fire someone for being involved in a motorcycle club when you're trying to do something positive.

And so again, you know, hopefully last, left. some sort of lasting impression, you know, something that helped positive for people moving forward. If they're either in clubs or getting out of clubs or have that stigma and they're wanting to get into a helping profession, hopefully that at least ease the burden a little bit. Well, anyone can change your life at any point. Even individuals serving life in prison, they have the ability to make those changes even within those prison walls to better themselves in some way, shape, or form. Yeah. We all have an opportunity to do that. And that's my argument with these tags, you know, felon or whatever.

You go and you do your time and a lot of these people go through, you know, countless different treatments and all this different stuff to be rehabilitated. And then they have to carry this tag with them the rest of their life, you know. I was grateful enough that last year or the earlier, early this year, I finally got my felony expunge since after 1999. So congratulations, man. It's crazy. I mean, I've had it my whole life, right? So all of a sudden have gun rights again and stuff. I'm like, this feels wrong.

I feel like I'm doing something wrong. But, you know, not everyone has that opportunity. And it's so crazy and sad to see people, especially young kids. Like I said, I got mine at 18. See young kids make us mistake and then they have to live with that the rest of their life. Yeah, I got mine at 19. And, you know, unless a president pardons me because it's federal, you know, I'm kind of stuck. I'm thankful and lucky that it hasn't affected me.

It all. Obviously, I get the weird looks and the nose and this and that. But in my line of work, you know, that's my superpower like yours, which is why I love what you do. And you told me because that's similar to what I'm. doing on the side now, helping kids. And the lived experience helps you break the barrier with them. Because when they find out I went to prison and I was in their shoes, then they automatically open up rather than an adult that's never been in that position before. Absolutely. And like I say, even if you don't even have to tell your story, they know the way you carry yourself or you know

what they're talking about or there's things they everyone picks up on, right? We're like, this guy gets it. He understands. And so it's cool that you can do that, man. It's very cool. on therapy changed ever since, you know, being maybe someone that was like an 18-year-old in the gangs and whatnot to now, because there was always that stigma about men and therapy. I'm curious to your thoughts. I think culturally it's changed too, right? Like, it's not, like back then you couldn't tell it. You didn't tell people you were going to therapy. If your parents were, they would hide it, you know.

And I was court-ordered therapy when I was a teenager. Me too. And, you know, I remember it was some guy in a sweater vest that had no idea what he was talking about trying to talk to me about the violence in my life. And I just remember thinking like, what does this guy think he knows? So it's nice seeing the other side, right? Like knowing what I didn't like about it and what I can try and change and then not being that guy, right? Like being the guy that does have some empathy and does understand. And I think it's also more popular, or at least it's more mainstream for people to actually give therapy a chance.

I think the funny thing about especially being, you know, 1% or this motorcycle club is it's all alpha males. But their president was a therapist. So we'd be sitting in church or meetings. And I'd be like, so how do you feel about that, man? And, like, you know, we'd always sit there talking about our feelings of these big, tough guy meetings. But I think that's becoming more mainstream, thankfully. As a therapist, I have to see a therapist in order to keep your licensing and stuff like that. And so it's, I think culturally they're making a positive shift in that direction.

But yeah, it's definitely different than when we were younger. That's so awesome. I mean, yeah, it's definitely shifting. I'm able to interview, like, former murderers or crazy stories and crimes. And I asked them, like, about their child and now they're feeling and they're willing to open up about it. because it's becoming more and more common. For sure, for sure. And that's when we're starting to see, you know,

we talked a little off air, but we're starting to see the studies are showing, like how much your upbringing played a role in that or your parenting or just, you know, your childhood, right? And so hearing these people's past plays a huge role in how we can help them moving forward. If you could go back in time to your 18-year-old self, what would you tell them?

Man, that's a tough one because really I don't, I'm not a guy that has regrets. I think the mistakes I've made shaped me to who I am. You know, I would love to say that I wouldn't have gotten that felony. but you know what maybe then I would have went my life might have went in a different direction or some of those doors that got closed to me earlier open shifted the whole way I did things so just stay true to myself man I think's the biggest thing you know that young me was really concerned about my reputation being known as a tough guy and I tell this it's an exaggeration but I tell

this was like I was like I would drive two states over if someone called me a pussy you know what I mean and I's learned as an adult that none of that matters to me at all dude first of all you're not changing anyone's mind even if I got over there and beat that guy up he he he wasn't looking and he wasn't ready. You know, whatever. Everyone's got an excuse. But what I want to be known for now is just a good person. You know, I want to have that impression and that legacy on people where they go, hey, man, Mooch was a good dude. And that's way more important to me than Mooch was a tough dude. And I think that's probably the biggest change from, like, young me to now. That's awesome. Well, Mooch, thank you so, so much for taking the time to sit with me today. Thank you to Soess, the ghost. Check out his

channel if you guys haven't already. And Soce was on this show a couple months ago. And it's been a pleasure connecting, talking. If you need anything at all, please reach out, and we'll have a link to your book in the description of this episode. Yeah, thanks so much. And anybody listening, you know, I respond to anyone who hits me up on Instagram. So if anyone needs to talk or have questions, hit me up. It's OG underscore underscore mooch.

And then please definitely check out my book. Yeah, he responded to a little white nerdy kid named McLevin, you know, so anything's possible. For sure. Well, safe travels back, man. Thanks, brother. Thanks for having me on.