Locked In with Ian Bick - Former INMATE Interviews PRISON C.O | Steve Purcell

Episode Date: April 13, 2023

Former Federal Inmate Ian Bick interviews former C.O Steve Purcell to find out what it was like to work inside New York State Prisons.  Connect with Ian Bick: https://www.ianbick.com/Subscribe to our membership program on YouTube to get early access to interviews, see behind the scenes photos & more:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRvVklIft6DMelVW18M0oBw/joinPowered by Q29 Productions, LLC Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Real California Milk My name is Ian Bick and you are locked in with Ian Bick. On today's episode we interview our first correctional officer Steve Purcell to get an inside look at New York Department of Corrections

and life as a correctional officer. We all make mistakes, experience failure, and fall down in life. But if you decide to get back up and use it as fuel to your fire, you could choose to not let it define you. You can make it through to the other side and turn it into an opportunity.

Join me, Ian Bick, as I interview people from all over the country who have experienced the rock bottom of the American justice system and find out what they did to overcome it. These are the stories that will motivate you and inspire you to change your life. Steve, welcome to Lockton with Ian Bick. I knew about investing, but I really didn't know how to go about it. Meet Corey, a Walthfront client. With Welfront, it could put money in and it would automatically do. distribute it into a diversified portfolio. Then it starts to compound. The compounding compounds

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You are our first CEO correctional officer on the show. so you are in the hot seat. I don't think you probably ever thought you'd be interrogated by an inmate today, but the tables are reversed and we'll get right into it. I always like to kind of like start at the beginning of the stories. In your case, like we're essentially starting from your beginning as like a correctional officer. How old were you when you decided you wanted to become a correctional officer? So my dad, joint corrections.

in 98. I was six years old. Grew up around it. Um, you know, it's not like, oh, I want to be a cop. I want to be a firefighter. My mind was set. I want to be like my dad. I heard the stories from him. All his buddies that he would work with, you know, they'd meet up at the house. They'd talk. It was the camaraderie and all that stuff. And once I got older, you know, 16, 17, I said, this is what I want to do. I want to follow my father's footsteps, and I'm going to do it. And I will tell you, ever since I told my dad, I went to my dad, I said, hey, I want to do this. He said, absolutely not. Absolutely not.

Do not do it. You do it. I'm not going to talk to you. You know, like I'm telling you right now, don't do it. Obviously, didn't listen. Went through with it anyway. So took the test, which was at the local high school, took the test, 2013, 14, heard back June of 2015. How old were you?

I was 20, about to be 21. Did you go to college? I did go to college. majored in criminal justice, the stereotypical, you know, which was a waste if you want the truth, because nothing you learn in a school book teaches you how to deal with anything that goes on in the criminal justice world. But got the call, went to the academy, six weeks, went through, you know, it was like going to the military. A lot of people compared to that. we walk up.

We're all in suits. Everybody's holding their duffel bags. You're getting screamed at, you know, the whole entire time. You step out a lot and they're making fun of you. The drill instructors are making fun of you. You know, if you had like a mustache, what are you doing with that creepy mustache? Like, things like that. Now, this is just for correctional officers.

Just for correctional officers. So, you know, first. First week, they don't let you. You're essentially treated like an emmy. They want, my belief behind it is they're trying to model what you should reciprocate when you get to whatever prison you're going to be working at. So, first couple of weeks sucked. Can't call nobody.

You're not calling home. You're not, you know, your PT. PT was crazy. And then they start to lighten up on you. Of course, that whole time, that's like the weeding people out process. Guys, I remember a guy that was in my room left in the middle of the night. We woke up that next morning, the dude was gone. Just wasn't for him.

Didn't want to do it. So he just, you know, left. I think I started with 60, there were 60 of us. I think I graduated with a class at 25. So the worst part about that whole thing, and I don't know if you've experienced it, was the chemical agents training. Chemical agents training. Yes. That was we get hit with pepper spray.

Well, now it's pepper spray. When I was going, it wasn't pepper spray. It was CS. We got hit with C.S. And I hate to even put it like this. You literally go into like a gas house. You got your gas mask on. You're all in a circle.

The drill instructor. My drill instructor was crazy. That dude was in there with no mask, no nothing. He's just eating the fumes. Not awesome officer. I got to work with him later on. Awesome officer. But they get to me and I'm walking in the circle.

And he just so happened to know my dad from working with my dad previously. And rips my mat. You don't know when. it's coming either that's the best part you have no idea when it's coming um rip my mask off start asking you questions and they ask you questions because they don't want you to hold your breath while you're in there so you're not exposed so he's asking me questions whatever blah blah and the next thing i hear is this one's for your dad and they spray me while i'm in there so i'm choking i thought in my head i said i'm going to be the first recruit that ever dies and it got you know pepper spray all i'm going to be

the first one. So they dragged me out. You know, there's guys, other recruits waiting outside the door. They grabbed me. It literally looked like, I don't even know how to describe it. It's not, my, everything, just going, going. And we did weapon training. We got trained in the AR shotgun. done and at the time it was at 38. Now they switched to Glock, but we got trained in all three of those. Do they give you a permit to carry at this point? No. So in New York, when you become, when you graduate the academy, you're a peace officer,

so you're allowed to carry under your badge outside of the job. Outside of the job. So a lot of people are curious, is a correctional officer considered like a member of law enforcement in that respect? In my eyes, yes. In majority of people's eyes, no. We're the bottom of the barrel. Yeah.

Why do you think that is? Because anytime you hear anything about a correctional officer of the news, it's never good. You never hear how, you know, it's not like a cop going into a scene and maybe clearing things that, well, not nowadays, but going into a scene and, you know, oh, so-and-so, help this child or whatever. majority of the time you hear a news article about CO, it's either corruption or how they were assaulted. So you could carry the gun with you, like outside of your job. Obviously, they didn't let you have a gun inside the prison, but...

Right. You're not allowed inside the prison, which certain circumstances you are, and I've been in those circumstances. I wasn't carrying the gun, but there were other staff that were, but that were. That was, we were locked down. That was a different story. That's a different story. But we're training that because we do transports, and that's when we carry, you know, our handguns. Yeah, I know like in the feds, some orderlies from like the prison camp

would clean like the training centers and there's a firing range. And then these guards that you would see inside the prison. From an inmates perspective, you're looking at them as just like a mall cop because you don't see them in a gun or anything. but when they're working perimeter or working transport, they got the shotgun, they got the pistol. So that's when you kind of look at them in a different light. And I remember, like, growing up as a kid,

I was definitely very ignorant that like a, you know, like a correctional officer is just like a glorified mall cop. But then I realized like some of these officers, it's like it's a real legitimate, you know, job member of law enforcement. They can make some pretty decent money, especially with overtime and everything. Yeah, that was the biggest thing.

And I mean, we would have, so like certain posts that are in the state where I worked, the facility I worked, they, like roof posts, we had the AR. We had the gas gun to drop in case there was a riot, any of that stuff. We had all that equipment, you know, in all those posts. and I do there's a couple times I come on the cat wall I would come off the catwalk in the yard and I'd have the AR in my hand because there was a fight that broke out you don't know you don't know what's going on and that's that's an area feeling too because you there's a yard full of in the summertime I don't know how it was in the feds but in the summertime the yard would be packed with 300 some inmates and there's three four or all. officers out there. Yeah, the inmate to officer ratio is nuts. In our unit, it was like one per every 400. That's pretty bad. Yeah, and I've dealt with that quite a bit in the state. That's probably one of the biggest issues. It's really disgusting how, you know, I mean, I get it. You asked me earlier, you know, why do you want to do? Not everybody wakes up and says,

oh, I think I'm going to go work in a prison for the next 25 years and do time with these guys. Like, nobody does that. But at the same time, they, there's really not a lot of, the only incentives, like you said, overtime, you can make crazy money and the benefits. Where else are you going to go to the doctor and only have to pay $20 to go see a doctor? I don't know many jobs now that offer that. Now you graduate the academy. What type of prison are you stationed in?

What's like the first prison you work at security level was? Okay. So the first prison that I went into right out of the academy was they send you to your home jail. My home jail was Greenhaven, which is in Stormville. It's a max A. That's in New York, right? Yeah. Yep.

It's in New York. So you go for two more weeks of training and then you get sent to the jail. that the state feels is where they pretty much where they're putting you. And you find all that out in the academy. Your last day of the academy, that's why I said it's like the military. You're sitting in a room, your drill instructors are there. He's reading last names off. He's going.

So, Smith, you're going here. Jones, you're going here. Purcell, you're going to upstate. And I said, I'm looking around the room. Like, why am I the only one going to upstate? and come to find out upstate borders Canada and I'm a local guy I'm from down here and I said shit I'm going six hours north I like what are the chances of me getting transferred back home like no they could send you anywhere in New York any state facility in New York they try their best they say to

accommodate you know you to keep you close to home but Um, doesn't really happen. And from what I hear, because I still talk to some guys, that whole thing has changed. I'm not 100% how it works. I know you don't do two weeks at your home jail. You do like four now. But I'm, I was all the way in upstate New York, which is a totally different culture. And what kind of offenders were housed there?

Men, women. That was a super max. That you were locked. That was a solitary confinement jail. Just men? Yes. I've never worked at a female. facility.

But these guys are locked in 23 hours. It might as well be 24 hours because the back of their cell is literally a cage and that's their wreck time. Their hour wreck. And anytime they would come out of the cell, we'd have to cuff them up.

And we had some high profile guys there, but what type of charges are they there for? Oh man, cop killers, rapist, murderer, you know, serious stuff and mainly because they couldn't get they couldn't go through general pop they just were trouble troublemakers they were doing what you name it you know and they got caught

and then they most of it was violent stuff to put them there either fighting with other inmates it's salt and staff things like that that's what really would get them up there how are you feeling like your first week on the job being like green i guess you could say going to these facilities that are housing like the worst of the worst types of inmates so i it was definitely nerve-racking because i they don't provide the state doesn't provide you with only certain facilities provide you with state housing they call it if you're far from home we'll give you a place to sleep um i didn't have that when i was six hours away i was sleeping in my truck. I was working

16-hour shifts and I'm going right to the parking lot sleeping in my truck getting up to do it all over again in another you know, seven hours. As time went on,

they would let me sleep in like the CERT room, which is like the correction SWAT. They would let me sleep on a cot in the cert room. And then finally, I put my I put my transfer in as soon as I got the day I got there put my transfer in so I worked my way back down to closer to home then I wound up at a medium facility which was a reception center

was Ulster it was a reception center that I think that transition was the hardest because now I go from these hardcore guys you know doing whatever in there for whatever to oh yeah we just got put here because we're getting released in 30 days or whatever, so this is the closest to home for us, so we're getting released from here. And those rules are totally different. You think it was almost safer working in, like, the max security prison where they're locked in,

rather than like the medium security prison where they're let out freely? I wouldn't necessarily say it was safer to work. I think they're all pretty much the same because bad shit happens at all of them. you know um the it's just on a different scale when you get to the medium guys have a lot more to lose because like i said they're going home they know some of them are going home soon or some of them are doing skid bids they're doing like a one to three and they're not trying to get into as much

um because they know they got that hanging over their head if they catch another charge when they're in there they're getting shipped out of there and there's more more it's a little more lenient the medium um the biggest rule when i worked at the medium was the smoking don't be smoking like you can you couldn't smoke um in the yards and stuff like that which it is what it is like it was a rule but that was literally my biggest problem at that at the medium did you have any regrets by this point of coming signing on to being a correctional officer I wouldn't necessarily say regrets. Or second thoughts about it?

Yeah, I had a couple second thoughts because when I got my first paycheck, I looked at it and I said to myself, what the fuck am I doing this shit for for Penny? Like, they were still taking money out of my checks for food at the academy. That's the other thing they do. They take money out of your check to feed you instead of some, you know, being it was supplied by the state but i wound up paying for it my check so by the time that that first two checks rolled around they're still taking money out i'm thinking of myself what why am i doing this like what what's going on like but after a while you make up for it in overtime and you know you get there

what was the feeling like to like strip search another man and make him squat and cough like as an officer That was probably most degrading for like both, I guess you could say, because wholeheartedly, who genuinely wants to stare at another man's shit and then go through the whole, all right, bend over, squat, cough, and I'll tell you, like, there's been instances where I've gotten into it with other inmates just for doing my job and not even going over the top. and as time went on, that's where I learned, I guess I could call it Tools of the Trade. That's how I found a lot of contraband. When somebody would come back from a visit and they would start fighting with me, they'd start calling names.

What are you gay, man? What are you staring at my shit? And I'm like, dude, come on, let's get this shit going, man. Like, do you think I want to stand here and do this? But the way I was as an officer, sarcastic. I was extremely sarcastic. Like, you know, I'll give you an instance. I had one guy come back from a visit, go through the whole thing, and he was, you know, he was being a dick.

And he made some comment like, you know, oh, you like what you're looking at. And I said, no, I hate to break it to you, man. You wasted a whole career. You could have been in a whole other industry doing whatever you're doing. But here you are. like, you know, and he just like looked at me like, what, what are you talking about? And I'm like, yeah, come on, man, let's go, hurry up. Let's do what we got to do and get out of here. But like I said, that's where I found the guys that you knew who the new guys were and you knew who the guys that

did time, that were in for a while because they did it new, you didn't even have to tell them. You would get there. It's all private. It was a, um, a, uh, a, uh, a, uh, a, uh, a, uh, a, uh, uh, a, uh, her in it's all private cubbies those dudes who come in you wouldn't even have to tell them twice they knew exactly how to do it they knew what you wanted to see they wanted to be in and out just as much as i wanted to be in and out and you find contraband on guys yeah what would they be smuggling in so drugs was a big one um weapons in their ass yeah drugs was drugs was the ass drugs was the ass Drugs was the ass And the dead ringer was

I'm not trying to be too much But the dead ringer Was if their ass Had like a glimmer That's it's a God's honest truth Like nobody's ass naturally looks like it has a glimmer Yeah The glimmer was the Vaseline

Okay And that was the drug that And they're able to do that during the visit Without any guards noticing up going to the bathroom their kids i didn't work the visiting room too much i worked the other end a lot of rook we call it nuts and butts rookies when you're a rookie officer nuts and butts they'll literally call you on the rate we need you to come up front for nuts and butts and you're a rookie you get as a rookie you get the shittiest jobs wow the shittiest jobs what's a correctional officer's view on sex

offenders and snitches all right so i'm going to tell you my view because I don't want to speak for the general. I'll tell you my view. Sex offenders, no go. Did not fuck with them, didn't care for them. If something happened, something happened. Did you treat them differently towards than other inmates? Did I? Yeah, I absolutely did. Absolutely. because that's and it it's not something that like I was the only person single on it they're singled out on their own by every by everybody everybody rats we it I think I had one or two one or two rats a lot of CEOs have their own guys like their own like snitches or their own like informants on the inside but like I remember I literally was watching the interview you did with Steve the NYPD officer

yeah and I remember Steve saying yeah you got through all this paperwork no there was no paperwork with us you came to us you know you would tell us whatever information we want to know and we would go about our day you know like we they would give that up and in return We'd be like, all right, we'll give you an extra 15 minutes on the phone. You want to, okay, you want an extra feed-up tray? We'll get you into an extra feed-up tray. But if the information you're giving us is bad, we're not, we're not fucking with you. Now, how much access do you guys have to an inmate's personal file?

Like, can you find out their charges or if they testified on someone? Like, what do you have access to? So as a correction officer, we don't have much access to any of that stuff. Now, it's interesting because I was also a counselor in the prison. So a lot of the stuff I'm telling you, too, is from when I was at Greenhaven. That was where I did most of my time. I did eight years. So at Greenhaven, I switched.

I was a CEO. Then I went to counselor. As a counselor, I know everything. I know who your co-defendants are. I know who, uh, who's on your calling list. Like, I don't know how they did it with the Fed, but New York State, you have to go to your counselor.

You have to write to them and say, can you add X, Y, and Z to my calling list? Yeah, that's how it was. Okay, so that's, I dealt with that too. Why did you decide to become a counselor? I decided to become a counselor because I had a certain deputy superintendent of programs come to me and asked, do you have college?

and I said, yeah, I have college. She said, what are you wasting your time being an officer for? She said, you could move up the ranks much quicker if you become a counselor. And I said, all right. And she said, it's also more pay. It's more money. You're Monday through Friday. It's not like working the wheel as an officer doing 16-hour shifts.

You're off all the holidays. It's better, you know. And I said, okay, I'll give it a shot. So I did. Did it for a little bit. and they I think my biggest downfall was I got along with some of the counselors I worked with but some of the other counselors didn't like how blunt I was because sometimes we had to deliver shit news especially when I started doing the parole hearings sometimes I'd have to go up to

a guy's self this it might have been his fourth time going to the board and he got denied and I got to tell him that. I got to hand him that piece of paper. I'm standing the cell right there. And I got to tell him, you got hit again. He opens it up, starts freaking out, flipping out. You know, I did everything. I did all the programs.

I did all this. I said, appeal. That's the best advice I got for you, appeal. Because there's nothing else. I hate to be the bare bad news, but just appeal. and there was a lot of a lot of councils I work with that they did what they had to do

but it was more I'm not a coddle person I'm not going to sit here and tell you hey Ian you're doing a great job man like you know keep doing your programs keep doing it if you know if I was your case manager when you were locked up

hey Ian what's going on how the fuck's you know the yard going hey how's this you're talking to this one you know how's how's are you almost done getting your GED or you know whatever the whatever the case may be and I just talk to the person or person like I'm talking to you now the difference between me and them they got caught and I didn't there was shit that everybody is done that could have easily ended up on the other side of the bars now in my experience the counselors I dealt with were pretty much useless like they didn't really help me in any way I was just like another file to them do you do you do you think that you are an effective counselor and we're able to help people yeah i most definitely think i was and that's not me being arrogant or cocky because i hate that too but i agree with you 100 percent a lot of

a lot of the counselors there yeah just there to just push paperwork through and why do you think that is do you think they go in with the good intentions and the system turns them into that i think that's part Yeah, I think they go in with good intentions, but I think eventually they get burnt out. And I think they get burnt out because of the people in Albany and the people that put these rules in place. That's one thing I definitely want to bring up. You got people in Albany, literal pencil pushers

who've never stepped a foot down back. Albany is like the corporate office. That's head. Yeah, Building 2 in Albany is the Department of Corrections. That's there. that's where the superintendent the commissioner corrections um all that other stuff that's where they work out of none of these guys have ever walked down a block and if they did they were always protected they never walked single-handedly they always had uh albany cert around them so they never got to

experience the backlash that we got they never got to experience i mean i'm sure they did because I'm sure in the feds you had grievances, right? You could write a grievance if you didn't like what the officer said to or the officer, the officer stole my, my bricks, he stole all my bricks, you know, whatever. Those guys are just answering questions. They're not dealing with the shit face to face. We're standing there. And the worst part about all that is they're putting these policies in place and the next week

they're changing them. Who do you think's got to eat shit for that? We do. We got to eat shit because one minute I'm saying, all right, Ian, no, you're done. 15 minutes. You're done, man. Get off the phone. Then next week it's, we're installing tablets.

These guys could have, you know, they could have tablets and, you know, they could do this. So we got to cut down on this. But within a week, I'm changing the rule. So I just yelled at you for something. Now the next week is perfectly fine. So who's that frustrated to? Both ends. Because you're like, what the fuck?

Steve, you just told me I could do it. Now you're taking this shit. Like now you're like what the fuck. And I and that's where it was, I think my bluntness work to my advantage because I would sit there and tell them like, yeah, this is coming from the higher ups and I'm just a messenger. Yeah, it's like corporate America. Like there's changes all the time. I'm sure like your average employee could relate to what you're saying right now just

with like the constant changes and whatnot. And it just adds pressure to like an already stressful. job. Yeah. Now you see in America there's a from law enforcement, there's a lot of abuse of power, there's a lot of corruption. What types of abuse of power or abuse towards inmates are you seeing from other correctional officers? So the abusive power that I've seen, um, to put it real guys that got bullied in high school that got this job. Now I got a badge and I could tell people what to do. So I'm going to tell them everything to do. And I never respected, well, let me backtrack a little bit.

I didn't respect the officers that would talk shit behind a lock gate to another inmate. If you're going to talk that, if you want to be tough, make sure you come in every day and be tough. Don't talk shit behind a gate. And don't fuck with somebody that's cuffed up. If they're already cuffed up, the shit is over. don't be that Tommy tough nuts oh yeah here I come you know I'm gonna be big in bed and talk shit no you're a pussy you are and I've told that to officers faces I worked with you're that's that's some real coward shit but even if they're not cuffed up like they can get

away with a certain amount because they know if the inmate swings on them then it's the inmate that's got more to lose in that scenario so they do have that advantage too but that's why they talk behind a closed gate because they're afraid deep down they're afraid they're taking that job for the money the benefits all that shit they're not which is fine i could totally respect that i totally respect that you come in you want to just do your eight hours you don't want to be a tough fine no problem but be that way all the time don't come in one day and you know start cursing at a guy because he's taking his time going to the cell and then the next day you're going to let him get on the phone for extra time because you're afraid of confrontation. Be one way the entire time.

Now on that note, what's like the most dangerous situation you've been in as a correctional officer? The most dangerous scenario I've been in. I've been in a couple. So I'll tell you my first day at Greenhaven. Like I said, my dad worked there. Well, it works there. It's me and him. There's two there's a group of 65 inmates coming back from the mess hall now when I say my first day I don't mean like I mean my literal first day I had like a half hour on my boots and it's like 7.30 in the morning

I'm standing there mess hall's coming back we see one inmate jump out of the line and hold his face so my dad starts walking so I start walking with him oh you're working with your dad I'm working with my dad. For the whole time I was at Greenhaven, I worked with my dad.

All right. So he's holding his face. What happens next? He's holding his face. We get there. He's, he got, he got buck 50. He's leaking. He got stabbed?

He got cut. He got sliced right on the cheek, whatever, jumps out. Automatically, like I said, half hour on the job. My dad's been there. At that point, my dad was there 18-something years. You know, he's like, He starts assessing the situation. I turn around.

Everybody get on the fucking wall. Move, move, clear, move. You know, so we start, we line up guys. We call a response. We got the radio. We call a response. Dude show up. We start pat-fresking guys, you know, one by one, send them back to the block.

We never found the weapon. And that's happened more than once. Sometimes you just, guys are good. Guys are good. good. And it's not like, you know, people would think, oh, it must be a big, you know, like a pocket knife or something. No, it could be the smallest. It could be a can lid that they had bent it, made whatever, cut them, and dumped it. There's windows walking down the corridors. We don't, you know. When this type of thing happens, are you in fear of your life? At that point, it's always

question because you don't know if it's a setup because I've been in those scenarios too you don't know if it's a setup if that was a diversion for somebody to come after you so I want to yes and no because you don't you you just got to play the scenario out honestly but you got to have that thought in your head like yeah shit could get really ugly um there was another time I'm in the yard. I'm in the yard. 300-something inmates outside. Two or three other officers with me.

These guys decide they're not locking in. They're not going back to their cells. That, I will honestly say, that was one of the times where I said I had a come-to-Jesus moment. Like, yeah, we're fucked. And all I have on my side is a baton and pepper spray. And what is that going to do against 300-something dudes? That's going to be used against me. But now, are inmates coming after guards in that manner?

Like, I know in prison, I interview, like, a lot of former inmates, the general consensus is, like, an inmate's not going to get harmed unless they did something to provoke that, like, bad paperwork or, you know, theft or got involved in something they shouldn't have. Is it like that for, like, a guard? Like, say, you're a decent guard, you're nice, you're respectable. Are you just randomly getting stabbed up or attacked one day? Or do you provoke that for that to happen? I think it depends on the all.

officer. I know officers, I worked with officers that they had active hits out on where they had to tell that officer you're not working down back until things cooled down. And that could have been how that officer was, how they carried themselves, if they were too strict, if they, you know, but the normal, you know, CO, it all plays, it all depends on the scenario. It really does. What's the worst thing you've seen happen to a fellow CEO? Um, I saw a fellow CEO getting knocked out. cold on his feet and had to respond to that that was interesting um i know a ceo got cut just doing you know daily job like he'd stop somebody pat friskam see if he was carrying contraband they wound up fight and he got cut um some of the worst ones like i've seen

get there's a thing called the cocktail which is a series of pills i know some officers that had to they would go into an extract an extraction because the inmates covered in shit blood they're cutting up smearing shit all over themselves doing everything and you get exposed now you don't know what medical that was one thing we didn't know they could have had any type of disease we don't know so they put you on this cocktail. I know plenty of officers have been on the cocktail that it makes you sick you're throwing up you you know you're pretty much spending a few days on the toilet holding a garbage can. Um so it was that's just a couple of them. I mean what about woman officers women COs how are they treated by the men so by the men I think there some of them are hated even more

but then some of them are looked at as mother figures, I think, because a lot of guys, at least at Green Haven, Green Haven, those dudes are there for life. A lot of them, that's a life for jail. A lot of them are there for life, and some of them they would look to, a female CO could come in and more or less calm down a situation because they might have a good rapport with that inmate.

They know, you know, just how to say certain things to these guys. guys and they'll respect that. But on the other hand, you did get certain inmates that would absolutely run up one side and down the other female CEOs because they just didn't like them. But that all goes back to the type of officer they were. If you're by the book, people have, you know, sometimes people, and that goes back to the abusive thing, abusing power. If you're doing, if you're that CEO that's going to go.

above and beyond like yeah i know this is a rule like a perfect rule was when you leave the block you're supposed to have your shirt tucked in and you can't your pants can't be sagging and all this other stuff now would i write them up for that no hey pick your pick your pants up stop what are you what are you doing you know tuck tuck your shit in look presentable um there'd be some officer to be like yeah no i'm ring you up like like i told you you to do whatever and you did and so I'm writing you up. The credit I give them, they were consistent. You knew what to expect when you saw that officer.

Okay, so-and-so's working. Yeah, all right, let me make sure my shit squared away. But then you get certain inmates that said, fuck that. I'm doing what I want. Let her write me up. I'm going to talk shit. And then it puts mail officers in a shit spot per se, because now that's my coworker.

I don't necessarily agree with her wanting to write somebody up for that or the petty little shit. But you have to have their back. But I got to have their back. Just as an inmate would have anybody, you know, like, it's the same shit. Did you see female officers or female case managers, counselors, whatever, hooking up with male inmates before? So I have never seen, I've never actually seen them hooking up. But you heard rumors?

No, we've found out. We've found out that it was true about certain officers or counselors, whatever, hooking up with inmates. Why do you think that happens? Like, why would a woman want not only an inmate, but risk their lives, risk their freedom because it is a crime? Like, why is that? So there's a lot of things that go into the whole office, the female officers hooking up with inmates.

It's, I think in certain aspects, it's, I know where he's at. You know, it's their own insecurity. At least when you're working in New York, you know, the max, there's certain times. You're locked in. There's not a majority of, you know, you know where they're at. So maybe in their past relationships, they had trust issues, whatever. They know where these dudes are at. They know when they're going to call them.

They know how the system works. other than that, I really don't know. And I'm just being honest, like, I don't know what, maybe it's like the whole bad boy thing. Like, you know, oh, yeah, well, you know, he talks to me nice. And my husband at home, he could give two shits what I do. That might have something to do with it. But I just, I never understood it because in all,

especially where I worked, these guys are there for life. what is somebody going to provide what can you offer her that she's going to turn around and leave a whole family and i've seen it happen it happens all the time it happens a lot more than people and and that's another thing that's constantly brought up in the news so-and-so ex-o officer gets caught sleeping with in me oh and you see it now with ex-officer um involved in sleeping with the department that woman that was like getting paid yeah by the whole yeah the whole department that is crazy And it's, and unfortunately, a couple of them I worked with. I knew them.

And nine times I had 10, do you know what type of officer they were? The officer I explained before. By the book, I'm writing you up for everything. I'm doing that. It was the ones you would least expect because they always talk shit. Oh, no, this guy ain't getting fucking shit. He told me to go fuck myself. Or he didn't want to lock in, so fuck that.

So they almost, they pull the wool over your eyes. like oh there's no way it could be this one she's no way she's one of the nastiest ceos we've worked there's no way and then if i and comes out so-and-so is sleeping with the inmate now something i'm curious about is the last name thing so like as an inmate you're never referred to by your first name it's always your last name or your id number where does that come from and does it take some time for like to you to adjust to that because you're essentially like dehumanizing an individual. What's that like for you? So I'm glad you said like dehumanizing and stuff like that. So when we go through the academy,

that's what we're called by. So even officer to officer, I could tell you right now, I don't remember some of the officers I worked with. I couldn't even tell you their first name. I only know the officer's last name. And I've worked with them for quite some time. One thing I know, I never called an inmate by like the movies, right? In the movies, A, zero, zero two, zero A, 2200, 200, come over here. No, that shit don't have. I've never, very, maybe once it's happened. And it might have been an officer joking around.

The last name thing, I couldn't tell you, honestly. I think it's just, that's how we're trained. So that's what we do. Now, our officers referring to inmates more, or looking at inmates more like an object rather than a human? Some. Yeah, I'm not going to lie to you some. Myself,

Rapos, absolutely, you're an object. I want nothing to do with you. And when I was running a block, I used to run not all the time, but I ran a block in Green Haven and it was H block. We would hire porters,

okay? Just to clean the block up, do whatever, you know, make things, do feed-ups, all that stuff. I let, if somebody came to me looking for a job to work in the block, I said it straight out. If you're a rape, don't even bother applying. I don't want that. You're not benefiting anything. In my eyes, that's a worst thing you could do. Anything against women and children is the worst shit you could do.

I don't, like, listen, there's people getting bad situations do fuck that. They're fucked up on drugs. They're fucked up. Like, shit happens. I get it. I'm not condoning that shit either. murder all that shit but rapos no and I let them know right from the gate you're a rapeo don't even bother applying dude go somewhere

go work somewhere else because I'm not hiring you you're not going to be walking around here because porters tend to get not so much a little bit more freedom but we get audited right the whatever corporation counseling

of America. Whatever bullshit fucking society comes, they audit us on cleanliness and all this other shit, right? So naturally, me being me and the guys I worked with, because there was a crew of us, we all, you know, we wanted our shit to be tip top shape. We wanted to be known as one of the best blocks that runs, just smooth like a machine. The inmates respected us. If we got respect, we gave respect. That's pretty much what it boils down to. But our porters would, hey, listen, I'd go to a porter, hey, listen, the audit's coming or some big wig from Albany's coming. Can you do me a favor? I need the floors buffered. I need them waxed. I need this place looking spotless. Yeah, I got you. All right. I appreciate it. I'll give you that. You want an extra

feed-up tray? I'll give you an extra feed-up tray. You want 15 minutes on the, extra 15 minutes on the phone? I'll give you an extra 15 minutes on the phone. They're essentially doing me a favor because when those people come walking in and they see that shit is in tip top shape, oh wow, okay, at least one out of the eight blocks that are here working, running pretty smooth, okay. So that, more or less, I didn't want to give that free. I didn't want to give that opportunity to the rape. Like, I didn't.

I just, I got no patience for that shit. In my eyes, you literally, coward, you defenseless. Somebody who's defenseless, you literally ruin their life. What was like your non-negotiables as an officer? Like, we would have certain officers that would come in. They'd be like, I don't want to see, you know, like, cell phones out because they knew the inmates had contraband cell phones. I don't want to see this.

or like when I'm walking, doing a walk, you know, like make sure everything's a tip top shape. What are yours as an officer that the inmates came to known you for? So things that inmates came to know that respect, they respect to me and I respect to them, the biggest thing, like cell phones for us, we knew they were there. It was almost like the unspoken shit. Like you didn't, because that is, you get caught with cell phones in there. You're doing box time, like, or you're getting shipped out. so yeah they were there cell phones were there drugs were that you could probably get more drugs on the

inside than you can on the streets oh that's a real issue yeah like that it really is um and my biggest shit believe it or not was I didn't even care like if dude smoked but when I'm walking at least be discreet hide that shit put it behind your back do something who am I who am I and Keep in mind, too, I'm this 20-something-year-old kid at the time. I'm telling a 56-year-old man, hey, lock in. Hey, yeah, you could shower now. Hey, you could do this. Listen, man, hide it.

I know what's going to happen. Hide it. Another thing, we knew who the players were. We absolutely knew who the players were. Who was the dealers? Who was the weapons guy? Our biggest shit was, you want to handle your business? Handle that shit in the yard.

Don't bring that heat in here. on us because we're not i'm not taking heat from a higher up that because you want to fuck around in here take that shit to the yard don't don't do that shit when we're here you want to do it on three to eleven do it on three to eleven but we're not doing we don't want to be bothered with the paperwork we don't want to do none of that now if i brought in one of your former inmates and ask them what they thought about you what would they say uh what would they say that's a good one hopefully they would say fair, firm, and consistent, because that's really how I was. I mean, I gave you what you were entitled to.

Did they give you a nickname at all? We had a lot of nicknames for prison guards? Yeah, I bet. Yes, they did. I was given a nickname, and it's not going to be the reason you'd think. So obviously, look at me, I'm not a small dude. By any means, I'm not a small dude. I'm a bigger guy.

I know it. But a couple. Hey, that's in nowadays, though. Yeah, well, hopefully. So they gave me the nickname Flash. Flash. I'm going to tell you why. Shockingly, they used to throw nets to pass shit, right?

We called it fishing, I guess. Yeah, fishing. Fishing. They were fishing. So what I would do is I would make a game out of it. I would stand at the top of the company and I'd watch these guys fish and one day

I played sports in high school and in college I played football and baseball so one day I'd stand at the top of the company and I said I said to the guys working with me I said I'm gonna go and get it I said I'm gonna catch it I promise you and they're like no fucking way there's no way there's no way

you're catching that like you probably ain't even that fast whatever I said okay So the line comes down. It's getting there. I see the, you know, the inmate with the broom trying to grab it. And I take off. And when I take off, that's probably the fastest I ever moved since playing sports.

Just take off. Now the inmates in the front couple cells don't, they said it literally look like a blur. So now, whatever I get down there, I actually catch it. So now I'm standing in front of the cell of the dude. He's like, come on, man, it's just cigarettes. I'm like, yo, I told you guys, wait till fucking shift change. I'm not, you're not, don't do this shit when I'm here. Like, I don't want to deal with this shit.

Like, you know you're not supposed to be doing it. Like, whatever. So I would drag it. I come walking up the company. I'll never forget this one dude. He's like, he's like, where did you get that from? He's like, you'd be the last person I would ever expect to move like that. And I said, well, I couldn't tell you.

I don't, it just came out of nowhere. I mean, maybe all those years of football actually paid off to grab contraband. And we didn't even, and it honestly wasn't anything serious. It was literally cigarettes. It was a brick of Bustello and tops. That was it. Now, the guards that bring in contraband for inmates make a shitload of money. How does an officer like yourself avoid the temptation to,

you know enable that corruption and go down that path for me simple i'm not losing everything that i've worked for for a quick fix because that shit's not going to last eventually you're going to get caught and i think it all and maybe i would love to hear what you have to say too because this i think this and the female officers that sleep with inmates i think this kind of goes hand in hand you you're going to get caught. There's no way you're ever going to run through. You're not going to make it 25 years doing that shit and not get caught. Me and you are, you're in the cell next to me because in New York State, they don't double bunk anymore. Really? Yeah. So you're in the cell next to me. You're fooling around with the CEO. So now I'm saying to myself, well, if she's doing it with him,

maybe I got a fucking chance. So next time I catch that, hey, and I start talking her, and I start trying to work my way in, and she shuts me down. How do you think that shit has jealousy? Oh, I'm not getting some. Well, fuck, Ian's not getting something either then.

You write a snitch note, you drop it off somewhere, that's how that whole investigation starts. I mean, you think about there's no really such thing as the perfect crime. Like, you're always, there's always going to be a witness. There's always going to be something that happens. There's no way to avoid like that happening.

It's just like it's a common thing. Well, I will say the only perfect crime you can commit with three people is if the other two are dead. That's the only way you can commit the perfect crime. But even then, you know, there's like DNA test. Well, yeah. Yeah. In that sense, yeah. Yeah.

I mean, it's just like it's crazy. Like I think about like drug dealing, for example. Mm-hmm. you can't be a drug dealer nowadays you really can't like you're making that short-term money think about all the people just if you don't even have any partners you have the people you're selling to those are all potential witnesses or snitches you would have to totally exclude yourself and even then you still have someone involved that's going to like it's just no yeah you just can't do it anymore and honestly that's the way of prison now like every like they that's the biggest thing I hate

stop, stop glorifying rats. So what kind of contraband are you seeing COs bring in? And how much are they making off of it? So I've literally have never seen an officer bring in contraband. But you've heard of it. But I've heard of it. If you did see them, would you have snitched on them? I wouldn't have snitched on them.

Well, I can't say I wouldn't have snitched on them. I definitely would address the shit with them head on. and that was your job yeah but depending on what the shit was yeah i might have because fuck it at the end of the day i don't call snitch whatever you're fucking up you could potentially put me at risk because i don't know it's not like it's not like you would think like oh it's a brick of weed hidden in it there was a guy that worked at green haven was bringing in was picking up bags at a location sealed bags

picking them up bringing them into the prison and he didn't even know what he was bringing into the prison they locked down the prison for that because it was it got out that there could have been

guns it could have been like potentially like guns or something so I mean and that's one you're never going to see it you will literally never know because all that shit came out after two and that was another

officer who was cool he was a he was a cool officer i get per se you know um it's all like you said it's always the people you least expect right i mean i think i apply that to my situation like on ticot they'll see me telling a prison story i'm the least person you'd expect to ever go to prison yeah i would agree with that because i saw your when i saw your video i saw your one video where they asked for your papers and shit yeah and when i looked at i said he really wow Prison. I was fed time too. So how would you have treated an inmate like me?

Would you have automatically thought like I was a sex, sex offender coming in? No, because you know why? Maybe, I don't know, maybe I just, you don't, you fit the description, because usually how I would describe it is, it's mainly fat, greasy white dudes. That's the God's honest truth.

You could tell from a mile away. And they got the glasses. They have some of them, some of them, but some of them play the disabled game too. They do. And they don't normally get bothered by. I know in federal prison. And that's their way around. If they're handicapped or elder, they don't get bothered.

Maybe in the feds. But once that shit gets out in the state and they find out that that shit goes by by. What was the most uncomfortable situation you were put in as a correctional officer? As a CEO, the most uncomfortable situation I was put in, would definitely have to be my experience standing up for another officer that I didn't particularly agree with what they were... But you had to.

But I had to. So did you ever feel like you were put in positions that you went against your own morals because it was your duty to have that other officers back? I wouldn't necessarily say against my morals, but I definitely had a conversation with that officer afterwards. Like, don't ever do that shit to me again. Like, if you're, and I would say uncomfortable because the situation is they're talking shit and now they're afraid to back it up. So it's not necessarily

me going against my morals. You're put me in an uncomfortable spot because you're sitting here behind a locked up gate yelling at an inmate down the company. and then you're calling me to come and rectify it. Like, that shit don't handle your business. You want to start shit. You better finish it. I think that's really interesting because, like, coming from an inmate's perspective, I would always, like, I would get frustrated when certain COs would have another back

of another CEO who was doing petty shit or whatever. And then, you know, seeing it when you take yourself out of that and you look at it, in hindsight, the guy was just doing his job to support. that other officer. Like that's your job. Like you can't not have the officers back in that situation. Yeah. Because you're putting yourself at risk.

You're putting the other officer risk. You're putting the system in general at risk. And I think that would solve a lot of problems if like all inmates looked at it like thinking in the moment because that could flip off an inmate. If he sees you who you have a relationship with this inmate like a cordial respectable one. Right. And you're having the other inmates, other officers back. And then that inmate gets triggered by that.

Right. So maybe if inmates just take the time to understand that perspective too. Yeah. And I think that that was more or less like, because now that causes something. I have a good rapport with you. But Officer Smith comes and is telling you, hey, Ian, I told you fucking 10 minutes ago, get the fuck out of the shower. You come out of the, fuck you, man.

I'm not, I'll let you know when I'm done. Because you might see he's a rookie. dude's shoes are as clean as this tape as polishes as chrome yeah that's a rookie i'm gonna walk all over this dude yeah i'll get out and i'm ready to get out but i'm running the block that day so now you come to me hey can you go upstairs this guy won't get out of the shower then i come up i see it's you hey come on man let's go he told you the shit was up the shit was up now me and you are gonna nine times out of ten when i've been in situations like that that's what happened oh come on Purcell, what the fuck, man.

You know this fucking rookie's running his mouth, and I would, don't fucking mind. Just listen to what he fucking told you, man. Do what you got. You got the extra time. Just taking it fucking wrong with it, all right? But then I'd have to tell that officer after like, don't fucking put me in a situation like that. Don't, don't do that.

What's your opinion of the shoe or solitary? Um, I did not work a lot of time in the box. I did work. I did have to escort some. inmates to the box, there could be modifications, but at the same time, that's for people that can't function in general population or they're a threat to general population. Somebody like perfect example is your crime. You want to, you want to be with somebody that's constantly setting shit off, constantly

fighting, is just a dick. like sometimes people need that need to be removed and now the shit that happens in the shoe you can't always believe what you read because it's not like a room with no walls and you get thrown in there and at least not in the state but there's certain changes and they are making those changes. You think it has mental health effects on individuals, though? Absolutely. Absolutely. And the one

thing I wanted to say, too, I think the biggest problem with the Department of Corrections in New York State is when they closed down the mental I don't want to really call them the silence, but they were like mental health centers, really.

Like, they closed them around like 2000, 12, 13, You started taking individuals that had legit mental illnesses that could not function in society They were getting help somewhat help you close the mental places and now they got all put into a prison So now that throws a whole different dynamic into this shit too because we're not we get trained But I'm not a I'm not a certified mental health special Like I we get we learn about the disorders and how certain people But at the same time

I can't treat you any different Because you come to me and you tell me you have my pull And I say that because In prison I'm sure you know everybody's trying to work an angle If you know that if I say this I know I'll get this if I could play the game It's if I could play the game it's if I could play the game and I'll get rewarded at it. Yeah, fuck it.

I got, I'm bipolar. I'm crazy. I'm schizophrenic. Yep. Sign me up. I get the meds too, even better. Because I could cheek them and sell them. So even better, sign me up.

And I think that's the biggest problem. They close that and it opened the door to now these guys are coming into the prison system because unfortunately, they do have mental issues and they don't know how to operate in society. and it shouldn't be the criminal justice system that is helping because the criminal justice system can't even help the individuals that are in there. What do you think is like the biggest thing that needs to be fixed about? I know we just talked about like the state, New York State, but what about the, you know, U.S. justice system in general?

What do you think needs to be fixed? If you really want to laugh, I think pedophiles should definitely not do skid bids. They should probably go away for a long time. That's my personal opinion. What I think needs to be fixed. Shit, where do I even start? Humanize the badge. Humanize, you know, like, get the help.

Like, everybody wants to sit here and tell you, especially, you know, the justice is, we're going to help, we're going to help, we're going to help. Where the fuck is it? you know how about making it apart make the academy an extra couple weeks to deal with this or bring in the right people or start opening up those you know alternatives to incarceration there's let me i can't tell you how many times like when i was a counselor i used to run the transitional services which was welcome to prison you're halfway through prison and leaving prison and, you know, re-entry into the community.

And that was just a way, because it was in a different part of the prison, so it was just a way for inmates to come up and just literally deal. Like, they knew they were meeting in the building. They knew their homeboy was over somewhere, you know, in the building. Yeah, I'll be right back. I gotta go to the bathroom.

I'll be right back. Okay. You never see the, the inmate comes back before, you know, whatever. But they need to, like, And I also think if you don't want to help, you're not going to take what's offered anyway. Do you see a lot of repeat offenders as a counselor that are like you're sending on their way back home and then they're coming back into the system? I haven't seen too many of those. Only because, like I said, I worked at a max.

Those guys were there for life. It was very rare that I was doing the re-entry program because not a lot of guys were going home. now sell shakedowns are that is that like equivalent to like an officer having to give speeding tickets like a police officer or do you guys have a certain quota you have to shake down as many as possible and how do you differentiate between what you're going to take like some guards were petty they would take like an apple out of the chow hall or like where is your line what's the gray area what are you doing so when it comes to cell searches we would get daily cell searches, completely randomized, every day.

They'd give you a list or you picked whatever. It would come from up front. We'd get a list of random cells that we need to hit. My line, I, see, it's funny. Like how you said Apple, because to everybody else, right, an Apple, how could somebody take an Apple? A lot of people don't know. That's the start of hooch.

And as a rookie, I didn't know that. yeah i don't give a fuck you got an apple okay have that it bud which in new york state they shouldn't even know they're i'm sorry they're allowed to leave with an apple or whatever and certain amount of uh bread or whatever but that's the start of hooch you take the apple you let it sit like the whole shit my me personally if you didn't have any weapons or or drugs um i can't really say that i really gave a fuck too much. I mean, from, you know, as an inmate, there's inmates that

are not making Hootch or causing that trouble. And for them, like, the highlight of their day could be having that apple that they saved for later, you know? And when you're already in a tough spot like that, I think certain guards don't realize the effects they could be causing or, like, additional trauma in that nature. Now, granted, like, not every inmates like that, there are inmates that are up to no good

or they're doing stuff they shouldn't be. but there are inmates that are like genuinely trying to change or better themselves and I think certain guards don't recognize that and they just treat everyone exactly the same way which is good and it's bad in some senses and I just think there just needs to be more like awareness on that level yeah I could agree with that but I think at the same time the hardest part is imagine going to work every day and everybody's playing an angle yeah everybody's playing an angle Hey, you know, coming back from the yard, we'd be locking dudes in. Hey, can I just run over?

I got to give this bunkey soup. I got to give him a couple suits. I got to, you know, whatever. You're playing that. You're trying to distract me because I've been in a situation where, yeah, we're distracting the guy that's, the officer that's locking him in. And meanwhile, the other dudes, they're trying to fight on the other side of the company. So, like, that plays into it, too.

but I get where you're coming from, but there also has to be, and I think that's a problem too, the inconsistency of consistency, if that makes any sense. I mean, over the top consistency, as far as like the Apple and shit like that,

like that doesn't happen as much as you would think. At least it didn't where I, the good thing about my block that I worked in, we were regulars. We were all, it was always, like, it was a group of us,

we knew each other for a long time, we knew what we were we were all on the same page more or less do you think that prison itself rehabilitates individuals or do you think the individual has to make that change to rehabilitate themselves so i totally believe that the individual has to do it prison's not the prison system does not do it for they'll give you the tools but again you're going to have to be the one that you know and everybody's different there's guys that have been three bids and they don't learn until the third or fourth bid like i'm done doing this criminal shit like i don't want to do this anymore like so someone that's like pure evil gets locked in prison for 20 years

and they genuinely don't want to change that 20 year sentence isn't going to deter them from changing honestly i think sometimes it makes them a better criminal i've known guys that went in on skid bids and came out a better criminal because they're studying their letter They're learning, they're what, they get put in with a click. Yeah. And now, now they're learning how shit runs. I had a lot of guys that were, like, fascinated with my story because they were, like you said, better criminals, they would be in for a bank robbery or whatever for like a hundred grand.

They'd hear about my case. And, you know, whether mine was intentional or not, they'd hear the words 500,000, three-year sentence where they're doing, you know, a six-year sentence for 50, 60K, they're like, teach me everything. And then I would listen in on conversations where the bank robbers that had a weapon or pretended to have a weapon got way more time for way less money than the guys that would just pass a note. So everyone's learning and dwelling off of each other. And it's just like very, you know, it's fascinating to see this dynamic because it's literally a school for criminals and how to commit crime. Yeah. And there's no way to separate that, which is why I think it's stupid that they have for probation. They come up with these rules. You can't

associate with felons, but the whole prison sentence you had, it would be one thing if you didn't get a prison sentence and they say your rule is don't associate with felons. But to say that after you just spent three years with felons who have turned out to be like your family or friends, and that's what they're going to label it as, I don't know. I just think the system's very flawed in that sentence. That I would agree with you because, and not only that, what about the, what about the people that get out that are felons that genuinely changed? you know, what's, that's ridiculous to me. Like, they genuinely change.

They're doing what they have to do. They, you know, this time around they might have learned. And that's, that, you know, so to tell somebody, I know you just lived with felons for a long time, but yeah, you got to cut that shit out. Stop talking to them. That is ridiculous. How long did you end up working as an officer for,

and why did you decide to leave? Did you retire? Did you quit? So, I wound up. up working seven years as an officer, one as a counselor. I left because I got tired of the politics and the bullshit. Everything and the lazy officers. That is one thing I will definitely say.

I could not fucking stand lazy officers. We're here to do a fucking job. It's not hard. It's really not. It's not a difficult job. You're walking. And I hate to say this. it's glorified babysitting.

And I fucking hate to put it like that, but that's a God's honest truth. And when you can't do simple fucking tests, I got no patience for you as an officer. I'll give you a perfect example. I don't know how the feds, but I was the amen of the block one day. We're short-staffed as it is.

The people of the front love taking officers out of blocks and putting them elsewhere. I'll never forget it was me and another officer. Now, I'm running a block of 300-something inmates. Me and the other officer have to let these guys out for Chow. We had help with that. We had some help with that. We'd have to drop yard if guys had yard in the morning.

We'd have to let them out for program. We'd have to let them out for religious services. Now, there's only a couple officers there. Me, I'm the A man. I can't leave. I'm in a I am literally locked in in a cage and I have a phone I got a log book that's New York State Department of Crows they run that shit like it's 1980s like the phone might as well be a rotary phone everything that happens in the block is literally pen and paper it's a logbook that's how we log shit and just everything the way we open cells is like this old and ass crank system it's very old and bad and shitty so we i called my sergeant i said listen i need an extra pair of hands it's only me and so and so i need help with somebody i need can you send me down an

officer so that we could drop yard so that guys aren't you know bitching like what the fuck is taking so long to drop the yard they send me an officer they could not have sent me a shittier fucking officer. This officer was known just to be laid bottom of the bar, did the least amount of shit. He comes, he knocks on the door, comes in the block. I said, hey man, listen, I need you do me a favor. I need you to hold down second deck. So we had three decks in the block. I said, I need you to hold down second deck. I need you to drop yard for me. And he's like, all right, if I have to. Right there. Everybody likes to say trigger.

They were triggered now. That shit set me right to fuck off. I said, well, what do you mean if you have? Yeah, you have to. Yeah, you have to. All right. So a couple of minutes go by. I said, what are you doing?

He's like, oh, I'm just heating up my breakfast. I said, the fuck you are. Grab your shit. I need you to crack chow. I need you to crack the yard. And he's like, oh. And this was a. a grown-ass man had a full-blown fucking temper tantrum going up the steps to second deck well

the guy that worked with me knew he said this shit is not going to fly i i opened that gate i said hey so-and-so can you come down here and bring your lunch bag too and he's like what what the fuck's your problem man like you told me go up i'm going up and say yeah great whatever come back down comes down with his lunch bag. I said, let me see your lunch bag. And he's like, why? And I said, because I want to see your lunch bag. You don't need it to go up there. And I tell my side man, I said, do me a favor, open up the front door to the block. And he's like, he's looking. He doesn't know what the fuck I'm going to do now. The other officer standing there, he's definitely confused because he sucked and he was lazy. And I took his lunch bag and I threw it out the front door of the block. And I said,

get the fuck out of my block. If you don't want to work, we don't fucking want you here. To which he turned around and immediately ran to the supervisor. So now, it's me and him, me and the other officer, the original officer that was there, we drop the yard, we do what we got to do. We get the shit done. Okay. Yeah, of course, inmates are bitching what the fuck is going on.

Why is just taking it's a long blah, blah, blah. In the middle of all that fucking, because that shit gets crazy too. in the middle of that i get a fucking phone call from the sergeant Purcell what the fuck is going on down there what are you doing why is this officer standing here did you kick him out of your block i said absolutely and don't fucking send him back because we don't want him if he ain't going to work and i hung up the phone after we cleared the yard they brought down another sergeant with the other officer the officer the sergeant comes he goes what are you doing man he's like you got like what are you

doing why would you do that and i said i don't want no lazy fucking officer here like we have a job to do ian it literally takes 20 not even a full 20 minutes to drop the yard this dude he would have been done in 20 minutes not even 20 minutes he would have been done and he could have went on with his day probably fucking hiding in a corner somewhere because he was afraid of everything so that's what would get me so mad with these types of officers and it drove a good you know officer out of the system Yeah, that's definitely. You see that in corporate world too. I mean, how many good people, like, I felt that way when I left my last job,

like I was hardest worker in the room, like top tier performer, and I just always felt like the bottom tier performers got rewarded. They were able to coast. There was no repercussions. Like, it's just, it's crazy. Like, I can't stand that because I have a good work ethic and a good hustle, and I just can't be around people that aren't on that same level. And that applies to relationships, that applies to jobs, that applies to anything.

And it's very tough. Companies, I don't think the heads of companies, heads of the prison systems, heads of anything, whatever you want to compare it to, realize, like these CEOs realize, or CEOs realize how they lose some of the best people they're ever going to have because they don't have the right management in place to take out the ones that aren't doing well. It's just like it's totally different. Yeah, absolutely. And by no means am I saying that I was one of the best COs.

I was there to do a job. You were a decent guy, you know, from the sounds of it. And that's what the prison system needs. You were there to genuinely help people. Do a job. Keep it pushing. And that was that. So to close out with, what's your message to someone that is committing crime

or maybe battling addiction or finds themselves in the prison system? or is struggling to reintegrate back into society? Like, what's your message to them? What would you want them to take away from this interview? I would have to say, it's not easy, even, especially as a man, it's not easy to reach out for that help. But do it. Whatever you do, nothing, life, I mean, not to sound cliche or whatever.

It really is a gift and any wrong can be turned into a right, but go and seek that help. Go do what you got to do. And honestly, I think the people in Albany need to do something for both sides because ultimately it's affecting both sides of the fence. I mean, officer, inmate, they're both getting the shit end of the stick. like you it's all about money like they don't care like they just so I mean my message as a person looking to go get into law enforcement if you get into corrections use that shit

as a stepping stone and use it as experience and keep it pushing get out of there as quick as you can use it for experience inmates anybody that's in take advantage of what's offered. There are some decent people still there to help. Yeah, there's bad apples everywhere, whatever. But take advantage of what's offered. You could get a, you could really get a lot of shit out of some of these programs if you decide you want to change and put the shit, put the work into it. It could actually help. Steve, thanks for coming on the show today. It was great talking to you. We definitely got to get you on the cookoff one day. It would be interesting to see you. battle it out as a correction officer.

I'm sure you've seen like some interesting prison meals in your local. So we'll have to schedule something up, get you out there. And, you know, have you face off against my dad or myself or something. That'd be funny. But it was great talking you today. You know, thanks for sharing your story. And best of luck to you. All right.

Yeah. Awesome. Thank you for having you, man. I really appreciate it. It was a blast.