Locked In with Ian Bick - Former Inmate Reveals Craziest Stories From A Life Of Crime | Jimmy McGill

Episode Date: September 14, 2023

Jimmy McGill suffered from addiction for almost three decades. Starting at age 11, Jimmy followed down the path set for him by his father and grandfather, turning to substances to cope with his circumstances. After a string of arrests and releases, Jimmy was paroled to a recovery residence and began a new phase of his life as a sobriety activist. Jimmy is a champion of the peer recovery movement and is leading the way in his home state of Arkansas, which he says has “grabbed the torch.” Listen to him talk about the importance of these kinds of programs and how he hopes to reach those who were “considered unreachable and unteachable” through his platform.  Big thanks to Lost Trail Communications for sponsoring this episode. Get a free consultation at losttrailcommunications.com - mention Locked In for 25% off any service. Connect with Jimmy McGill: https://www.facebook.com/jimmymcgilllive/ https://www.youtube.com/@UC-3DvW05ZHVgj8RbqO_AJgg  Connect with Ian Bick:  https://www.ianbick.com/ 00:00 Intro  01:07 Lost Trails Communications  01:40 Upbringing. Never saw a happy home until he broke into one 08:24 Not a Product of his Environment  10:11 Father in and out of jail  12:33 Any Regrets? Breaking Barriers. 16:05 Start of Crime and Joining a Gang 27:30 Living up to his dad’s Reputation 29:10 Misconceptions about Prison  34:21 Lost Trails Communications  35:43 Prison Nickname  36:34 Prison Sentencing 37:28 Craziest Arrest Story  40:45 Craziest Prison Story 42:45 Lonoke County Jail  55:36 First time coming back to speak at Lonoke  57:25 Changing the System 1:05:30 Message  Subscribe to our membership program on YouTube to get early access to interviews, see behind the scenes photos, live chat with Ian & more: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRvVklIft6DMelVW18M0oBw/join Powered by Q29 Productions, LLC Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Welcome back to the Lockton with Ian Bick podcast. On today's episode, I'm interviewing Jimmy McGill inside the county jail that he was formally incarcerated in. I met Jimmy a few months ago back in April, and his story is incredible. Battling addiction, in and out of prison, and county jails nearly 18 times, ends up getting out and putting that all behind him and decides to turn his life around, getting a government position in Arkansas and becoming the director for peer recovery services and instilling programs at the county jail that he used to be incarcerated in. Jimmy McGill story is incredible. What he's been through is life-changing and motivational.

And on this episode today, we dive in to Jimmy's story. And here's an incredible journey and his story of hope. Thank you guys for tuning into the show. Thank you guys for the love and support weekend after week. It means the absolute world. And thank you so, so, so much to Lost Trail Communications for sponsoring this week's episode. Loss Trail Communications provide affordable marketing and public relations services to small businesses, startups, and creators. Book a free consultation at Loss Trail Communications.com and make sure to mention locked in, to receive 25% off the service of your choice. Thanks again to Lost Trail Communications. Jimmy McGill, welcome to Lockton with Ian Bick. We are at the Lowenoke County Jail right now where you were formally incarcerated at one point.

It is such a pleasure to be out here with you today. We traveled all the way from New York to Arkansas to film this amazing episode. You've been on the top of our list since I met you And I listened to your speech and me, Bryce, everyone that was there were just blown away by your story. And I'm excited to dive into it today. But how are you, man? How's it feel to be back in this jail today?

Yeah, man, it's great. You know what I mean? I visit frequently. So I'm really glad to be here. And let me just say, welcome to Arkansas. Welcome to Little Rock. I hope you guys have a blast. Super excited to have you and your team out here.

and I'm glad to be here and glad to be a part of this, man. Yeah, and I just want to give you a big thank you, man, because we wouldn't be here without you. You arrange this whole visit. We're filming with the sheriff today. We're filming with you. We have other episodes lined up later at our hotel,

and we're doing a commissary cook-off with some of the inmates here. That's going to be crazy. Yeah, I think, now that's the first time, right? Real jail, real inmates, currently doing real time, real commissary straight off the store. Yeah.

Let's get it, man. And I will say, Jimmy, you guys talked a lot of crap. You guys called me out, you know, on TikTok. You're going to get to business, bro. But I met them, and they're kind of quiet as crickets. They didn't want to talk any stuff. It's different ones. The ones that talked all the smack have been released and are living in my recovery house.

That's the cover-up, huh? That's not a cover-up. That's facts. Rewind the video. Play it back. All right, Jimmy. Let's get into it, man. Where are you from?

Where'd you grow up? What's your childhood like? Yeah, absolutely. I'm from North Little Rock, Arkansas. It's a city that's nationally known. for gang violence. It's been on HBO a couple of times for just, you know, poverty, prison, gang affiliates. It's ugly. You know, to say I came from a broken home as an understatement. I never saw a happy home until the day I broke into one, right? Like I had no clue that my childhood

was abnormal. I thought every five-year-old helped their father hold their arm off so they could find a good vein to inject dope. I thought every toddler went to see their family members in prison. As far as my childhood goes, it looked like this. Like my dad was so, my dad was doing time constantly as I grew up. And I can remember being two or three years old and seeing pictures of me and my dad while he was in prison. And here's what's crazy is my uncle or whoever would take me to see him would put dope in my pockets as a kid. And then they would hand me to my dad to take the picture and my pops would be taking the package out and put money back in my pocket. So I was very desensitized to incarceration at an early age.

The abnormal had become normal for me, right? I didn't know that I came from a broken environment, a broken home. I didn't know any of that until I found recovery. Right. And so that's how I grew up. I came accustomed to violence, aggression, prostitution, thievery. It was an atmosphere of chaos, drug addiction. Everybody in there was trying to hit a lick off the next person trying to figure out who's got what and how can I get a piece of that, right? So that's how I grew up. And needless to say, I followed into my father's footsteps. I became a gang member of a city that is extremely overrun with gang violence. I was incarcerated at 14 years old, spent two years in juvenile, was released when I was 16,

arrested for a drive-by when I was 17, turned 18 in state prison. I think something that's really important about your story that we see in a lot of other stories of guests that come on this podcast is how much your childhood affected what was going to come. Like imagine if we take a second and think if you had a stable family, a father, a mother that were present, weren't in and out at jail, doing drugs, addiction, anything like that, your life could have been very different. Now granted, everything would work out the way it was supposed to work out and you have a very successful life now, but you went through so much trauma to get up to that point. Where was your mother in all of this? Yeah, so it's a really complicated story when my mom jumps into this,

right? So my biological mom, my father ran her off when I was six months old. Like, she literally jumped out of a moving vehicle and it was hit the road and don't look back or you're dead. She stuck around as long as she could trying to take me with her when she ran. And, you know, he shot her, he beat her up, beat her unrecognizably. And so, At the end of the day, he took me to a woman that he was in love with who adopted me. She didn't do drugs. She wasn't violent. She never cussed.

She was perfect. And she raised me the best she could, but I was too much for. You know what I mean? So my father ultimately beat on her. Same thing, right? Like put bullets on the dash, told her where each one was going to go into what body part. And so from the time I was 12, I didn't see her again for 20 years. And so it would be later in life when I would reconnect.

she would, you know, die in a car wreck, leaving a concert that I was performing at in Savannah, Georgia. And then, you know, seven years ago, my biological mom came into the picture, right? Like, I was clean. Recovery gave me the opportunity to reunite with her. And so, you know, I was basically raised by the system. And that's the truth of it. My parental figures were corrections officers. They were COs and probation officers. They were the only stable people in my life, bro.

How did it make you feel seeing maybe kids you were around friends, kids you were growing up with, have an actual loving family, a loving relationship? Or did you not even see that at all? No, that's completely foreign to me. Every once in a while when I would be staying at my aunts, I would go to church camp or something like that. and I would see kids that had four-wheelers go-carts and stuff like that, and I would be extremely envious, right? Like at the end of the day, I also want to say this, Ian, I'm not a product of my circumstances.

I'm a product of my decisions. I'm not a product of my environment. I always knew right from wrong. I was never a victim. I was a volunteer. I couldn't wait for the dope man to take everything I got. I was begging the system to lock me up. I always knew right from wrong.

I knew I ain't had no business robbing them people, man. And I did it anyway. But how did you know that at that age? What was right and what was wrong when you're raised that way? When your father is doing crime and you're in that environment, how is, how are you not a product of your environment in that situation? So I think my environment greatly influenced my ability to make decisions, which is why I made poor decisions. But nonetheless, I always knew that this was against the law and law enforcement would lock you up for that. That's how I know it was right and wrong because you go to jail when you get caught, right? And, and And so my environment, my upbringing, my surrounding, my atmosphere, greatly contributed to my inability to make healthy decisions. Now, a young Jimmy McGill, which is great that your name is Jimmy McGill, I'm sure you get so many Breaking Bad references. Oh my gosh, I can't get verified on any of my platforms

because the TV character gets searched more than I do. It's an iconic name, and it fits your personality, just everything you went through when you think about it. Yeah, they stole my swag, bro. I ought to sue them. So young Jimmy McGill, what are your aspirations? Like, what do you want to, before everything goes really south, do you have like a goal? Did you want to be like a firefighter, a police officer?

What was like that dream? No. Nothing. Nothing. I didn't, I never, I didn't have any of that. And do you think that's because of where you came from? I don't know, Ian. I was living in the minute, you know?

I was trapped in that moment and whatever I needed for that day is what I tried to get. But my childhood went south early, man. Yeah. So. Looking back on it now, do you think you ever got to experience real, like, childhood love? No. Not like my son has, for sure. But did going through that make you a better father now?

Absolutely. Because you experienced how not to treat a child. Yeah. And so I don't want you to think I'm dishonoring my dad. I'm not. He was my best friend. Right. Like the last time I went to prison for a long bid, I was there for four years, I think. He never missed a visitation. He was older in his life. He loved me the best he could love me. But his primary love was for his addiction, right? Like I needed my father and he needed a syringe. And he couldn't help that. He died at 66 with his drug of choice still on his body. Recovery wasn't known like it is today. People weren't recovering out loud. They were like, shh, don't talk about your addiction. They were trying to kill us. They didn't want us to know there was a

solution, man. And so my father didn't know that he could get help and stop using like I did. He did the best he could. Like I always knew he was my Superman. I knew you weren't going to mess with me because he'd kill you. He would literally, he lived like the old-timey gangster movies. Right? Like he got locked up at an early age. I saw him get arrested for a murder charge. I saw him beat that. I saw him get arrested for a rape charge. I saw him beat those. I saw him get arrested for, I mean, he would take it all the way to trial. And they were just old school outlaws. They weren't bikers.

They weren't rednecks. They just, they spent their time in beer joints. And if you messed with one of them, you messed with all of them. And they would literally, they were not scared of consequences. Right. Only thing he wanted was to use. And when he wasn't using, I came next. Did you get to visit your father while he was in?

I know you spoke briefly about prison visits. What was that experience like? Yeah, so, you know, I would go see my dad when he was in and out of jail and in prisons. And, you know, that was just part of my childhood. It was just something that we did every few Sundays we would go visit him. And there were times that we were incarcerated together, you know? You and your father, which is a similar story to Andrew Hager in that sense, whose episode came out already. Yeah. Now, when you were visiting your father, did you ever think that you would be in the

same position he was not so long in the future? How does that make you feel now? Looking back on it, when you reflect on it, because I know how I feel about certain actions and decisions that would lead me into certain situations that I'd never would have guessed. I mean, even this, did I think a year ago I would be sitting in Arkansas right now filming a podcast with you? We didn't even know each other as of six or seven months ago. For sure. So what are your reflections on that now? Man, I don't really have any regrets. The only thing I regret, the only reflection I have is the innocent people who got hurt on my journey to where I'm at today. The people who

didn't deserve, the things I did to them, the things I stole, I wish they never would have had to hurt. But everything I went through became on-the-job training for the life I'm living today. If I did not go through all those fires that were meant to destroy, me. I would not be the refined version of myself. The best possible version of Jimmy McGill that could exist is because I went through every one of those. From prison to purpose. From prison to purpose, man. I went from handcuffs to cufflings and I won't ever forget it. The last time I'm walking out of the joint, man, I got everything I on in a brown paper sack. I got a CO on each side of me. This is my sixth time in the Department of Corrections. At this time, I've got 18 felony convictions.

I'm a career criminal and I got a pending drug charge. The fact that I made parole was astonishing. That's where I know that it was something way bigger than me in the mix. And they're cracking jokes for good reasons, man. I'm always coming back. I've been doing time since I was 18 in the state system, in the adult system. And they're like, we're going to leave the lights on for you, Motel 6, we're going to leave some noodles. I'll tell your homeboy to have your bed made when you get back.

You know, all the stigmatic stuff they say. What they didn't say, Ian, was that I would be flying all over the country sharing a story. They didn't see me standing on the stage with the president of the United States. They didn't see me getting invitations to the White House to advise on drug policy and prison reform. They didn't see me writing a book, opening a nonprofit. They didn't see me becoming a hell of a dad to a wonderful 12-year-old, being a good husband. They didn't see any of that. They didn't see me finding a 32-bed recovery center that would take me in coming

straight out of jail in prison and help them become the husbands and fathers they were meant to be. And you know what that is, too, of what you were talking about, how people weren't open about talking about addiction, and they're still not fully, you know, it's still a touchy area, but we're getting better in society. It's the concept of talking about prison. Me and you talk about this all the time. Society is not willing at this time. It's starting to open up, but to let people talk about their experience and give them a platform, which is why people like you and me have to go out and create our own platforms. They're not asking you to speak at places because you were just some random person. It's because you went out there and you created that. That's how our friendship

form. That's how we met each other. That's how we're doing these presentations and this podcast. You have to break through that barrier. And that's what you're doing in the addiction and the recovery world. And that's what I'm doing on a, you know, on a different spectrum, just with sharing these stories of people that don't usually have a voice to show the world that we're human too and that anyone can end up in these positions anyone anyone you know what anyone could have gone through what you went through what i went through maybe not as extreme as owning a nightclub so to say yeah but just you know traveling down that path now you just said how it ends i want to know how you got there like what the early stages are the beginning of rest

walk us through that. Yeah. So, you know, it's it's so long ago. It's, it's hard to remember, you know, I get out of juvenile, which is training school in Arkansas, and you can take all the trips to prison, you can put them in a pot, you can stir them up, and none of it is as worse as it was in the Arkansas juvenile prison system. I spent two years there because I was such a well-behaved kid. I was only supposed to spend five months and I made them like me so much they kept me for two years. And so when I got out, I was affiliated to a gang. And so I always wanted attention, right? Like everybody, marijuana and alcohol weren't my gateway drug. Attention was. I needed to be validated by everybody around me. So I didn't just become a gang member. I became a gang member. I became a

gang member of a pre-dominate black gang in North Little Rock, which was all over HBO at the time. And so I come home from training school and I bring that mentality with me. And, you know, breaking a house, I'm stealing some guns, shooting the guns out of cars. We're sawing them off. And it wasn't long until I, you know, got a criminal indulging and street gang activity initiating into a criminal gang and criminal misuse of a prohibited weapon and discharge of a firearm, I think was the other charge, which that one got dropped because they couldn't prove that. And I think I ended up getting convicted of the indulging in criminal gang and criminal misuse of a prohibitive weapon, which was a sawed off shotgun.

What did it mean to be a member of the gang? Like what was a everyday base, like your role as a gang member? Man, when I look back, we were just idiot kids. You know what I mean? Like, we were a bunch of nobodies that didn't have a solid family. And when we came together, we felt like something. We felt needed. We felt like we belonged.

All of a sudden, we had the family dynamic that was missing at home. And most of them are dead today or doing life sentences or, you know, doing 40, 50 years on the yard. I've got a couple of them. Mike Reeves, who still calls me. And my cousin's scrap. He's, you know, still out there thugging. doing what he does and, yeah, yeah, you know. You said it was predominantly black,

so how hard was it for you as a white man to fit into this gang? Well, it wasn't really, because I was from North Little Rock. I grew up on Pike Avenue, you know what I mean? And so for 17 blocks, me and my pop were the only white people out there. You know what I mean? And it didn't matter how close, you know, my, even, you know, one of my best friend growing up was Tony Tillman and Nick Poppet up. You know, and so both of them still referred to me as the white boy in conversations when I wasn't there.

I would forever be the white boy, you know, and that's just the culture I grew up in. I grew up broke. I grew up on the other side of the tracks. I didn't, you know, I lived wherever my dad could afford to put us. And was the motivation to rob houses to get higher or was it to have money to spend it, go out to restaurants, clubbing? Well, it started where I was looking for guns. You know, and no, I was never a club scene type of guy. I didn't really do that. And then it became about, okay, we got to get money. We got to get dope.

And at this point, you're actively using. Oh, yeah. Yeah, the same way you eat and drink, food and water, is how I was using substances. And can you describe what that's like, like what the feelings are, what the effects are, how your, what your mental state is at that time? So my addiction started as, it was casual, it was fine. I used, I found something that I thought was missing my entire life. You know, the first time I ever put my substance a choice in my body, I felt like Superman.

I was the life of the party. My sex life was better. My energy was better. It was, everything was better. It just made me better, you know? And so for somebody who experienced sexual abuse growing up, you know, experienced abandonment, neglect, abuse, physical, parental, emotional, all these things, right, that contributed to an adverse childhood. All of a sudden, I feel okay.

See, that drug gave me a chance to escape my reality. I can sum my drug use up in two words, escape artist. It'll let me break free. and the more I did it, the more progressive it got. So it went from, okay, this is fabulous to, okay, now I'm more dependent on it, and now I need it. And then it got to a point to where I couldn't stop. It became the driving force of my life. And I'm going to go to any link to get it.

And it doesn't matter what lie I got to tell, what lick I got a hit, what scheme I got a scam, who I got to rip off. Nothing mattered. You don't matter. My kids don't matter. Nothing matter but me. And it got to the point where I hated myself, Ian. I would be staring at a loaded syringe full of drug, full of my substance of choice, tears running down my face because I knew I was going to do the dope and I didn't want to do the dope and I did it anyway.

And that's why I get mad because people say, well, addiction's a choice. No, getting high was the choice. I had no idea that I would be shooting dope for 23 years, catch hepatitis C and not be able to quit using. So that one decision to get high affected, changed everything. changed it all. I never stopped. That's the difference between me and other people. The other teenagers I was with, they got high, bro. They went home and went to school the next day. I was crawling around the carpet looking for farming crones. Isn't it crazy that one choice like that can change everything? Yeah. One choice. And that that's a reoccurring message in this show.

It's always that one decision. And it seems so, you know, minimal, like saying you're going to try this drug, when you're speaking about it, it doesn't sound so bad, but when you're showing the effects and what went down, years and years of destroying yourself and the people around you, because it's not just you. It's everyone. Yeah, yeah, it affected everybody. So when's the first time you get sentenced to like it in an actual long period of time? Is this in your early teens? Yeah, no, I turned, I was 17 in the juvenile part of the adult county jail. I, fighting the charge. And I was either, I think I turned 18 and they moved me over. And this is early 1995. They sentenced me and I'm in Varner prison just a month or two later. And how long was

that for? You know, I wasn't there very long. I was there for about five months, I think. This is a five month. Yeah. So I got two years for the criminal misuse of a prohibited weapon. I got two years for the indulging in gang activity. They ran them concurrent. And I ended up doing five or six months on the two years and I got released and so what that did was told me there was nothing in prison for me to be afraid of and I could do time easy so when I got there they were telling all kinds of crazy stories Ian like you're going to you know stay away from this guy look out for this their booty bandits in the shower don't don't don't accept no gifts they're going to put you know all this crazy stuff my entire family had already desensitized me to

prison. They were there. My dad is my daddy was a real killer, bro. Like they, you know, these like I felt like there were jokes made that I was born in prison. I was the epitome of doing good time. I know how to serve time. I'm good at it. And so that first time, though, it doesn't matter. You're terrified. And anybody says they ain't their lying. They're coming on this show fibbing their butt off, man. Quit it. Tell the truth. Shame the devil. Like, It was some scary stuff, man. And there was this one cat. Everybody said, stay away from it.

He's out now, but back then I think he was serving a life sentence. And he did like 40 years straight. And they called him Uncle Willie. And his last name, I named him something different in my book. But Willie Graves was notoriously known to do whatever he wanted to, anybody he wanted to. And that was the one person that everybody said, you stay away from him. you know and I was I was kind of handsome when I was younger you know what I mean so I was like ooh he's going to try to get me yeah I was wondering what happened to you I mean as soon as the prison

bus pulls into the sally port there's a couple of CEOs out there doing the intake getting us off the bus and there's a one there's there's a there's a there's an inmate at the gate old school black cat and on his tag it says graves and I'm like nah surely not this dude's out here with law enforcement And all of a sudden he says, McGill. And I looked up and I mean, scared, and it was Willie Graves. And he says, Thomas, your daddy. And I said, yeah, he said, man, I'm going to send you something tonight. He told me you was coming. I said, oh, no, you ain't going to send me nothing. I'm scared to, I mean, he scared to woo out of me, man. Here I am trying my best to be as tough as my family is that's in here. And the one guy that they didn't tell me is going to try to hump my leg is at the gate, you know? And I'm like, Okay, so this is different. But it ends up, he really did know my dad. They really were close. And, you know, my dad was one of the few people in the penitentiary system that he rocked with.

He knew my dad would assume kill you as argue with you. And, you know, I missed my pops in that city. He had just went home two weeks before I got there. Yeah. So, but that was my first experience as arriving there. And I won't ever forget it. The West Memphis 3 was there too. And so one of them, the day I got there, we were walking in.

I heard the big clank behind the door. They took us in the laundry. They gave us all our sheets and stuff. And all of a sudden, everybody started running out to the hallway. Well, one of the two, two of the West Memphis 3 was there. And the other one, Damien Eccles, was on death row at Tucker. And one of them, and I'm not going to say which one it was, but had been body slammed and got his neck put in a, and that was my first day there. And they were always talking about how it was really racial in prison.

Well, it's not. It wasn't then. In 1995, cities were fighting against cities. So Palm Bluff would be fighting against Little Rock, North Little Rock against Fort Smith, Fort Smith against Hot Springs. And it was really no racial tension. It was all gang violence, so it came down to neighborhoods. And, yeah, and it was wide open. I mean, we had it all in there.

You know what's wild, Jimmy? And I'm thinking about this now as you're telling it. The average kid, girl or boy, is watching their parent at that age or maybe even younger. They're watching their parent and they're maybe idolizing them if they're like a prestigious in their town and maybe they're the county sheriff or they're a firefighter or they're a firefighter or they're. police officer or a teacher and they're looking up to them and they have big shoes to fill in that sense if they're a staple in the community here you are you're in jail and your father has a reputation in that jail and this is one of your first times really stepping into a jail like this in prison prison and you're having big shoes to fill and you're looking up to him in that sense hoping not to let

him down, but it's an entirely different atmosphere. Yeah. I asked my pops one time what the most amount of money he had in prison was, and he said all of it. The true story. That's good. What, a bunch of backers and robidoodles? No, cash. Cash. Cash. Cash is king in prison down here. Really? Yeah. And so. So they're using actual cash? Yeah. Well, I mean, they're sneaking it in. You know, it's money rules everything. But how could they use that? Like, how do they convert that cash? onto their commissary books. Well, I mean, you know, that cash buys guards, cash buys cell phones, cash buys fidnail, cash buys substances, cash buys sex, cash buys everything.

Gotcha. Now, there's something I didn't forget, I just didn't want to interrupt you. You said the words booty bandit. Oh, yeah. Now, the average person, because I remember when I was a kid, growing up, you'd hear that term, booty bandit, don't let the booty bandit get you, this and that. What does that mean? And did you ever see that?

Is that a real thing? You know, I never saw any forcible sexual activity in prison in Arkansas. Arkansas is a different culture, right? There's no politics here, right? So I can be friends with any race I want. I can sit down. It was non-existent when I'm doing time. It's starting to kind of come that way now as white gangs have started developing in the prison system.

But back then they weren't, you know. and so you had shower sharks, booty bandits, you call them all that stuff, but honestly, most of the guys who were into that had all the contraband and all the commissary. And if you gave it up, you wanted to give it up. And they ain't taking anything when they can buy it or they can trick you out of it. And that's how it goes. You know what I mean? I never saw anything forcefully.

Even with young guys, like, say a guy like me comes. Never. If I went to your prisons. I never saw it, man. Listen, if you did that to somebody, it doesn't matter how weak you are. If somebody forcefully tried to violate you sexually, I would imagine most of the barracks would rise up against that person. Like, ain't nobody going for that. Yeah, they're not tolerating that.

Yeah. That's not real. Now, we would consider you, like, I would guess, and this isn't to insult your age, but like one of the OGs, one of the, more experienced people in the prison system, and you're a lot older than most of the prison content creators. Yeah. What do you think about some of the content that's going out there about prison? Is it true? Is it not? I think the people want to know if some of the stuff. You know, first off, let me pre-let me preference this by saying my tough days are over. Like, I live a very different life today. I'm not going to fight anybody. I'm not going to waste any,

I'm not going to be negative in anything. But when I was ripping and running and going to gunning some of the stuff I hear like like I've seen some of this I mean it was different dog like is it not to say it's not true it just you didn't personally witness it or what do you think some of these people are just making it up yeah I think some of them are definitely fabricating it man like I don't know and I've only been to prison in Arkansas but if you'd have ran up on me talking that crack man I'd have knocked you out and touched your butt pump you know like that was my mindset um and you'll see that you're fixing to go back here in a jay and speak to an entire population of people.

It's a big deal when I go back into the prisons. Like, I'm a champion for them. Like, because I was the guy who spent my entire life in that hallway. When I came home, I thought ramen noodles and cigarettes were currency, bro. And that's where the term, like, institutionalized comes from. Yes, yes. I remember the first, every time, the weirdest experience I've ever had is a shower with no shower shoes on after release. That was my experience, too.

Yeah. It's very strange. Yes. Because you go years, showering with shoes on, which you never did in your early life. Yes, man. And you do that and you get out. It's like, it's like, being naked. I don't know what it is.

It's like weird. Yes. And all this, you know, all these stories about how violent and tough and crazy. Man, come on, man. But what do you think causes that? Like, do you think it's TV, it's the movies? Because there is a connotation with prison and you hear prison, you hear rape, don't drop the soap, the drugs. I never saw any of that.

Now, I saw some, they call it mapping them down. Now, there was some times in 1995, 96, and 97 in the early 90s and 80s that they would, you know, masturbate looking at you. You know what I mean, in the shower? What do you mean masturbate looking at you? Yeah, they, you know, because it's a group shower. Everybody's in the shower together. And so the booty bandits or the shower sharks would get up on the other wall and they would be fondling themselves looking at butt cheeks. You know what I mean? And that's just real. And they called it mapping you down or

getting the dime, beating the dime on you. That's what it's called. What are you thinking at that age? Because you're a young kid. I ain't going. So number one, I knew off the bat, I had been pre-educated in the prison system when I got there. That is the extent of sexual abuse that I ever saw. And they'd get on the windows and they beat the dime on guards. You know, they'd see a woman guard and they'd be on the window and they'd be doing their thing. And they call them Mad Jackers, Purvis, you know. Do you think your experience would have been different if your father was never in prison, you weren't pre-educated about the system?

Yeah, probably. If I was just a normal 17-year-old that was headed into prison, absolutely. Someone like myself, maybe, that was in that position. Probably. My dad was a legend, bro. So when I rode his coat tell when I got there, his people came. and found me and looked out for me, and all of the rumors and war stories that I was heard of were non-existent.

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way. I got to hear this. Yeah. Because I know they didn't call you Jimmy McGill. There's got to be something crazy. No. So in the beginning, it started as Jay Rock. Jay Rock, okay. Yeah. Because I was from North Little Rock. My first name was Jimmy, right? And then later on, it became Jaybo and then Cracker Swagger. And I mean, it's changed over stuff, you know. I like Cracker Swagger. Yeah, so that was my music days, right? Like I actually made music and I did shows with Jelly Roe. did shows with Haystack, with Bubba Sparks, Little White, performed with all those guys in my younger years.

And you can still buy that music on Spotify, iTunes, you can still get it everywhere today. Do you have any of the idea of trying to promote his music? No, no, I still get a check from it, but I don't worry about any of that. So this prison sentence we were just talking about was more one of your first ones, the early ones. How many do you end up doing over the course of how many years? How many times do I go to prison? Yeah, how many times you go to prison and how many years? I went to the Arkansas Department of Corrections six times.

I had, when I got at the finish line, I had 19 felony convictions, dozens and dozens of arrest. That's not counting charges I took to trial. I beat or got dismissed. And all together I did, I think, 13 years. 13 years in prison? The longest stretch I did was four. And this is from age is what, 18? to 30. Yeah, I was in prison at 18. I was 38 when I came home for my last time. And you're

addicted to drugs the whole time? All of it. And never once did I get offered real recovery services or treatment. What was the craziest arrest story that you had? Out of all your arrests, I want to know the best one. So here's, well, there's three that really compete. Okay. And they tie into everything. Yeah. So I'm in full-fledged addiction. I'm robin houses. That's what we do, right?

We get up and I got to get a bag. So I'm living in North Little Rock. Well, I drive all the way out to Macon, in Arkansas, which is about 40 miles, 40 or 50 miles. And I go in this house, I hit this house up. It's got these Japanamation cartoons DVDs, right? And you could take DVDs back then to Hastings. It was a bookstore, and you could sell them for two or three dollars a piece. east and the newer the rarer the most in demand they were the more they would pay for them and so

in my best thinking i'm going to drive to the next county over to sell them now there's five hastings i could have went to jacksonville cabot little rock north little rock bryan i could have went to any one of those and i went 40 miles that way went 40 or 50 miles the other way to sell them the exact opposite right from where i started i go in i lay i give the guy my idea at the cash rushes He takes it and he starts going through it. He comes up with it. The value of them is too much that he doesn't have that money in the cash drawer. He calls the manager over because the manager's got to give him a ride over and get it out of the safe or something like that.

And the manager turns the page and he says, oh man, I've got that same DVD. You've got good taste. And he turned the next one. He said, man, I've got that one too. And he turned the page. He said, man, this is a really rare collection. where did you get these? And I'm defensive.

I say they're mine. What's it matter? And he turned the page again and he said, man, hang on, I got to call my house. Of all the houses I could have went into, of all the stores I could have sold it. I broke in that man's house and tried to sell him his own DVDs.

And he's got my ID. So I end up getting seven years for that. Now I come home. I get high again. So in Arkansas, you do two months on a year. So seven years and 14 months in it. I come home, I go out in Scott Arkansas, I break in a house, I take two goons with me. I'm a lazy crook.

So I make them carry the safe out to the car. Well, while they're doing that, I go out in these people's garage and I smoke a cigarette. And I throw my cigarette down. And I get seven years for that too because the DNA on my cigarette butt linked me to the crime. It's nuts. And then after I come home, home. I'm back in North Little Rock. I'm on Pike Avenue. I'm living on 24th Street. Me and my dad are the only white guys for blocks and blocks. And I step out on my porch and I

sell a quarter gram to a confidential informant. I was the easiest case in the world to identify. I'm fresh out of jail. I got prison ink on both sleeves. I'm in a tank top t-shirt and I deliver to a confidential informant. And I get seven more years. And how old are you when all this is in your 20s when all this is going on? Yeah, late 20s, something like that. Late 20s. Wow. So over the course of the 14 years that you're in prison, like in and out,

what's the craziest prison story? Yeah, so the funniest story I've got is... Yeah, I want the top one, Jimmy, so bring the heat, okay? All right, so we're on Ho Squad. Do you know what Host Squad is, right? No, what's that? Okay, host squad is... They take 32 squad.

ledgerence out and you work in the field. And you got a host squad rider with a pistol and he's on a horse. Well, I had some weed and we'd been smoking weed and I saved the stem because I was going to rip off one of these new guys in the intake barracks. We call them short hairs because you get here, you shave your head. So if you're in the new barracks, you're short hair. I grab some horse poop and I sneak it in and I take the weed stem and I put the hard, horse poop on the weed stem and I roll it up and we sell it to a short hair for $10, two bags of coffees and five boxes of cake. And so this cat goes and smokes horse poop and he comes back and I've already got it on

my mind. I'm going to have to whoop this kid. And he comes back and he's beating on the door. Get McGill. Get McGill. And I'm like, well, it's time. So I'm getting suited and booted. I'm putting my brogans on because I know the business.

I go up there and I'm like, what's up, man? He's like, hey, can you get me another dime? And I'm like, oh, man. So I say, yeah, come back in the morning. I have it at lunch when we come in from Ho's Squad. So, you know, not only did he smoke horse shit, but he came back and bought it twice. There are a lot of drugs and whatnot in prison that you're seeing. Yeah, but none like that horse poop, man.

None like that horse poop. That is wild. Did you ever try it or no? The horse poop? Yeah. Do I look like I smoked horse manure? You were on drugs. I did a lot of dumb stuff, but I did not smoke horse poop.

Now, how do you end up in the county jail where we're recording in now? December 4th, 2014. I'm homeless. I'm not really homeless. I'm in a relationship with a girl. I'm not really attracted to. I don't want to be with. I'm basically a prostitute on Nicole.

She has, you know, a job, a car. car, a house, and I'm in her car, and, you know, I get arrested. I get pulled, you know, I pull into this church to turn around because I made a wrong turn. I just left the dope house. I tried to sell the dope man, all this stolen property that's in my back seat, and he refused to take it. He's like, dude, just take the sack and get out of here. So dude literally gives me this substantial amount of my substance of choice and sends me on my way. He don't even want to deal with me.

I made a wrong turn. I'd been up so long. I was discombobulated. I was just really confused. And that wrong turn ended up being the right turn of my life. I drive till I get sleepy. I'm nodding out at the wheel. I go to turn around in this church parking lot

and I put the car in park for a second and I'm like, I'm just going to close my eyes for a minute. and it's daylight. I wake up, it's dark, law enforcement is beating on my window, my pit bull, the only friend I've got is going crazy, whov-vo-v-v-v-v-v-h, you know, and I forgot that I had all this dope in my lap.

And he said, sir, are you okay? Well, in my mind, I need to meet this head on and act like I don't have nothing to be afraid of. I'm like, yeah, I'm fine, I'm sorry. I was a little tired, pull it over, take a nap, but I'm on parole and I don't have a license and I guess I just need to get that out and he said whoa

he said man step out of the car for a minute and when I did the dope that was in my lap just and it was like that old 1980s song it all comes running back to me now I could hear it in slow motion I could see the cigarette pack with the dope in it

and ultimately I had 17 grams of you know my substance in one choice are in one bag, and then I had an additional three and a half grams in another bag. And so at that moment, I gave up all hope of ever living life again. I knew in that moment the hopelessness and the desperation that I felt was different, that life was over. I would either die in prison or if I did get to come home,

I would be too old to enjoy life as I know it. all because of that one incident. Well, that was my 18th arrest. That was your wake-up call. Yeah. I'd already been to prison five times. I was on parole. I knew that my life was over.

And although it didn't end that way, the life I was living did come to an end. Jim, how does it make you feel to know that a lot of people can't make it to that point to have that realization? Think about how many deaths there are from people that have, went on your path. They don't make it to that 18th arrest. They're doing life by that point,

or they're getting killed, or they're overdosing, or whatever the situation may be. Yeah, it sucks, man. That's a lot to have on your shoulders a lot of weight in that regard. Yeah, it sucks. So you get brought to this jail?

I get brought right here to Lono County Jail. I'm here for four or five days before I even come to, like I've already signed my parole waiver. I waved to my hearing, had no recollection of that. When I come to, everybody's in pink jumpsuits. I've never seen that before in my life. You know how hard it is to play tough in pink?

It's nuts. And I'm like, man, I think we're in the wrong pod. And my cellmate, he just leans up. He ain't got no teeth. And he's like, no, everybody's in pink in here. And I'm like, oh, my God, where am I at? and then I found out that I was in Long Oak County. Well, Lone Oak County is notorious for handing out hard sentences.

So at this point, I just give up hope. I'm done. I don't ever want to see dope again. I don't ever, you know, it's over. And even though I thought I was going to do 40 or 50 years, there was some freedom in that. There was some real freedom in giving up and letting go. I knew I never had to get high again.

And I was done. I seriously mean that. I worked my way up into a trustee position. What's a trustee position? So a trustee in Lono County is if you've been sentenced, they will put you in a position to work around the jail until you go to prison. So I started in the hallways, you know, doing stuff like that. And then I worked my way up to a shop trustee, which is outside the jail.

And the shop trustees have all the freedom in the world. You can smoke cigarettes, you can go out there and drink coffee, all the good things. And they move you from the back of the jail and give you a little private cell. And we've got some footage of that, I think. And so I'm in that jail living like a real boss. Like I got four mats. I got a coffee pot.

I got a TV, DVD players, man. It's like I'm not even doing time. And some dope comes in. And my cellie gets a hold of the dope. And he's like, Jaybo, we're going to do this dope. And I said, no or not. And I said no to him 15 or 16. 16 times that day until I couldn't say no anymore and I used.

And the same day I used, we got caught. And earlier that day, there was a confiscated car in the shop. And so I'm tweaking and geeking. I'm out there prowling around and there's a box. And I'm like, ooh, you know, in my infinite wisdom of being high, I'm like, ooh, I want that box. Of all things, I steal this box. Well, the box has got a brand new Bible in it.

And so a couple of hours later, the sheriff drug test me, I get thrown into isolation. It was obvious. I was high. Two days later, I'm sitting in diagnostics. When you're in diagnostics, you got 13 to 17 days of intake. You're in a cell. Can't have anything in there but that Bible. And so I started reading it out of boredom.

And the next thing you know, my life starts changing. And so every morning, for the next, however long I'm in prison, nine months, I get up, I drank my coffee. I do a quick prayer and meditation. And, you know, I read a chapter in this Bible. I end up doing that for seven or eight years. I still do it. I did it this morning.

And I greatly consider that part of my recovery journey. So I come home, I make parole. And there was something about the day I got caught getting high in the jail that I wanted to prove that sheriff wrong. Because he came into my cell. He had tears in his eyes. told me I let him down. We told him he didn't care about us. You know, we're playing the victim.

Like we didn't know that we were breaking the rules. You know what I mean? And tears rode down his face. And there was something about that moment that I wanted to prove to him that I was not just a drug addict. That I was not just a piece of crap convict. And so when I came home,

I went into a recovery residence. And I was fighting my charge. And I connected with the sheriff and I was sending emails, updates about how good I was doing. Then I got asked to come speak at the drug court because I was all over social media. This was eight years ago. We weren't recovering out loud like that. There were three of us, me, Andrew Hager and James Sweezy. We were the only ones on social media, screaming, recovery.

And people were telling us to shut up left and right. And that day when I spoke at the drug court, I shared the stage with the judge who would be my preceding judge. to sentence me and the sheriff. And I fought that charge for a couple of years. And the sheriff fought beside me and wrote a letter and pushed for me. And I ended up getting sentenced. I got, they got a substitute for prison here called RPF, where you can go do months instead of jail, years in prison.

And so they were going to send me to RPF for four months. and so I signed for that time. And I couldn't believe it. I never got offered any kind of RPFs like treatment prison. And I never got an opportunity for help ever. And so when I signed for the time, I got two years clean. At three years clean, I'm hired as the director for the Office of Recovery for the state. I'm still, you know, I'm still waiting to go do that four months, but now I'm in a state position.

The next thing, you know, I'm all over the TV. I'm becoming the face and voice of reentry and recovery for my state at a state level. And the governor changed policies, procedures, laws, all these things to hire me. And I flattened my parole. So five years goes by, and I still haven't had to go do this four months in RPF. and then I get an email from the parole office, Ian, and he says, hey, I can't give you your discharge papers. You still owe me four months.

And I'm like, no, you're crazy. Like, I'm a public figure. My time's flat. I'm not going back to prison. And so I called the sheriff. I called my boss. And then I called the prosecutor who sentenced me. And I had such a relationship with him that he fought and called the judge,

and they overturned the four months. and I never had to go to a day of it after being convicted for it. Wow. Yeah. And so when I got that state position at three years, this was the first jail that I put a recovery program in. They gave me $50,000 and they said, hire somebody, make it work. And the success of this program opened the door for me to create 10 more programs just like it.

Do you think you owe your life to the sheriff and the judge in that regard? Because it could have, you had an extensive record. They could have locked you away and thrown away the key at that point. They didn't have to give you this opportunity. What do you think motivated them to give it to you? So I'm not trying to get spiritual or religious at all. Okay, so I hope you don't have to cut this out. But I owe my life to Jesus.

That's the way I feel. Because of the blessings and the favor I received from God, there were a lot of people who took political risk. The sheriff and the judge were the smallest. What about the governor who hired an active parolee with a pending drug charge? You know, that's political risk. What about the drugs are? Kirk Lane, who was my arresting officer in those three stories, I told you.

He's the one who went to the governor and fought for me. But yes, the sheriff absolutely took political risk. And the judge definitely didn't have to sentence me either. I mean, he could have sentenced me. He could have. If I had what I deserved, I would be in prison right now. Isn't it amazing what happens when you take the risk to give someone a second chance? I mean, in your case, it's not a second chance, but it is because that's a different act of your life.

But just in general, the concept of giving someone another chance, whether that's another, an ex-girlfriend or boyfriend, a former inmate, anyone, just giving someone a second chance to see if they've changed. Because there is a power in that. Yeah, for sure. You know, I think about the lives that have been changed, the effect of lasting change that come from the judge not sentencing me to a harsher sentence. Because the state prosecution was pushing hard. They wanted seven more years. And the judge didn't do it.

The judge gave me four months. And then he reverted the sentence. I never had to go do it. But if they would have sentenced me back, there would have been no Jimmy McGill building the Office of Recovery for Mental Health and substance use. We wouldn't have changed state laws that people with a criminal history can work for state agencies for peer support. We wouldn't have created the 10 recovery programs in the jail. We wouldn't have put the prison program in place. We wouldn't have peer recovery in the emergency rooms.

We wouldn't have overdose response teams. We wouldn't have crisis. We wouldn't have anything with recovery if they would have sentenced me like that. What was it like that first time going into the jail to speak, not as going into that jail, not as an inmate, but as a public figure, as a public worker to implement change? It was different. It was different. And so the closest thing I've ever seen to what it looks like when I walk back into a jail or a prison is that scene from Johnny Cash has walked the line when he walks into Folsom Prison. that's the reception I get from the convict population, right? Like, because I am literally one of theirs. This is not a story. This is why the books are all over here.

Like, it hits different. They did time with me. I was never that guy, Ian, on the yard, trying to do easy time. I was that guy that if there was a riot, I was the one that kicked it off. If there was a shank, I probably made it and sold it. If there were contraband, I snuck it in and I had some parts of it. I was always in the middle of the mess. So for them to see me like this all over the TVs, on the billboards, on the magazine covers,

they see someone that they know one of their own who was supposed to die on the yard is now in a position using his experience to fight for them. I am their champion, and it hits different for me. Like when I get comfortable, that's why you seen it a while ago. I can't wait to see them, man. Because when I see them, I know I'm going to get a hug and I know I'm going to get a chance to say, bro, there's freaking hope. You ain't got to die on that yard, man.

You ain't got to keep coming back on installment plans. You don't have to get high again. And I think that in itself breaks down the barriers of having that felony conviction. Like, I know you got pardoned and the felonies are off your record, but you're still that same person that physically got those felonies. So what changes in the system? Like you're still able to come in here and you're able to do that as a former felon. And I think that opens a door to discussion.

Maybe society puts people like yourself, people who have changed. Felony or not, you know, in these positions to create real change. I think that opens a door that's never really been opened before because it was always for the longest time, you have a felony, okay, you can't work in law enforcement, you can't work in a prison, you can't do anything. Did I ever think once I got my felonies on my record that I'd be welcomed into a jail to give a presentation to do these interviews? We created that. It's the second sentence, man. You know, you came home and society wants us to serve what we call the second sentence.

Absolutely. And it still haunts a lot of people. Like, I get so many messages from people I can't find work. can't, you know, do this or even dating anything. There's so many things stacked up against people with past like this. Yeah, absolutely. Now, what is a recovery program? My recovery program or the recovery programs in the jail that you implemented into these jails? So I think when I left the state of Arkansas as the director of recovery, I left 54 programs that I created that were in place. So the one where I'm

today is the PACT Project, right? And the PACT program is peers achieving collaborative treatment. So it's a pre-sentencing. It's an alternative to prison. Guys who have too much of a criminal history that don't qualify for specialty courts, like me, I wouldn't have qualified for drug court. So they get sentenced to the PACT program. And the PACT program is one year. And so you do four months in a barracks of recovery programming. and then you go to a recovery house for six to eight months, and then you do the remainder of your time in aftercare, which you're out on your own if you choose to go out on your own.

But a year after sentencing, you've completed the program in your own probation, I think, for six years instead of going back to prison. Yeah, that's great. And they're at like a 74% success rate. And that's why they keep implementing them all. And hopefully it goes to more in the country. now. Yeah. Yeah, we're at, I think we've, we started with this one, and we've got 10 programs now in

different jails. Now, you wrote, you ended up writing a book called From Prison to Purpose. Yeah, my whole brand. Now, what is exactly your brand and how has it changed since you had this, got this opportunity to have a second act of life? Yeah. What do you do now and what is your, what is your brand? That's, uh, your past doesn't define you. And just because you've been to prison doesn't mean you don't have a pathway to a productive future, right? Returning citizens are important, you know. Do you want good neighbors or do you want, you know, barriers? So it's like that's what the choice is.

And so I fight for prison reform. I fight for better support services for returning citizens. Everything I do is for our population of people. I founded a nonprofit that houses, well, now we're expanding to 34 beds, but we have 32 beds now. And every one of my guys came from prisoner jail. And you're also the chairman of the board that we both sit on? Yeah, absolutely. That would be probably the second height, highest thing that I love to talk about, which is NARP,

the National Association for Reentry Professionals. NARP is the guiding light for all returning citizens for everything about educating the public about reentry services and how we can better help returning citizens reintegrate into society. We're both on that board. I said as the chairman, it's an amazing thing. We have a yearly conference where we go to a different state every year and we just try to build better services in whichever state we're working in. buys on programs. We do trainings. We do public presentations. We just help people learn that returning citizens are important too, like inmates matter. I feel like for the first time in your life,

you actually see a future and you're making a plan rather than just looking to get through today and maybe even focused tomorrow when you are an addict. What's that, what's your five-year plan? What does that look like down the road for you? You know, it's recently changed. I think I want to grow next step from 34 beds to 50. I want a 50 bed facility where I can ultimately spend my time helping me in like myself transition into society and learn how to overcome the things like a shower with no shower shoes on, balancing a checkbook instead of your commissary books, right? Like I want to use that experience, but I recently met with a state rep Ashley Hudson who is kind of trying to mentor me.

I'm fully pardoned with firearm rights, and so I think I want to seat at the table. I think my five-year plan has been, what you just said, people like us need a voice, and are you going to hold my past against me and deem me uneligible to run for state representative? Can I not be a part of legislation?

Like, I want a bigger seat at the table because people like Ian Big and Jimmy McGill matter. and when when opportunities were opened up for you, you changed, Ian, you haven't went back to prison. When services were open to me, when doors were open to me because of Sheriff Staley and Kirk Lane, I never went back to prison. I want to be the voice at the table at Congress and legislation fighting so we don't go back to prison. Definitely. And I think they're not going to have a choice, Jimmy. I think as platforms like yours, like mine, like the other creators continue to grow, you have a larger audience than some of these senators, like the junior senators, the congressmen,

that are running for office. Yeah. Not the ones that are making the millions that are high profile, like that you see on the news all the time, but the people that are running for local office, they have a few thousand followers. There's a lot of mayors that have a fraction of your social media outreach. You have the power to touch people all over the country, even all over the world. Yeah. I look at my data all the time of who are.

reaching. Yeah. That's very, very powerful. Oh, brother. The analytics are stupid, bro. They have to, they can't hide from that for forever. Yeah. There's going to come a point where, and I say this all the time, you know, it's going to be like reality TV in a way for that, that whole post-prison world. Absolutely. So, I mean, let it be known right here on Lockton with Ian Bick. If you were setting that legislation in Arkansas or a state rep, you're on notice. I am coming. He's I'm coming with a digital battle axe. And between me and the people who I associate with, we have millions of followers to leverage. You're either going to let us in or we're going to vote you out. And it's also entertainment too. Like hearing the stories, it's a mix of you can, in politics,

you don't have much entertainment. But in our world, you have the good and then you have the funny, too. Yeah. Because you're turning the bad and you're making it funny. Yes, we can laugh about it. We can smoke a little horse poop, bro. We can push a good agenda and we could talk about the horse poop. And we could talk about the shower shoes and the booty bandits of the world. Yeah, man. And it brings people together. Now, Jimmy, I have one last question for you. All right. If you could go back to your teenage self and have a sit down conversation with that teenage self, what would you say to him? Before you started going to prison, before you started trying that drug, what would you say? That you're going to go through a lot of hardship.

You are going to experience hurt. You're going to experience loss and loneliness in the first 38 years of your life. You are going to feel like you are alone in the world. And it is for a purpose. You are going to go in and out of institutions and when you're 38 years old, you will become an expert on prison reform and re-entry.

You will know the system better than anybody. You'll be idolized while you're serving time. and you will have a voice for leadership when you're not. And I know that you feel alone right now, but you're going to have a 12-year-old son that is going to be your best friend. He will never know what it's like to need you and you not be there. You're going to have a wife that helps you climb over and beyond the mountains. You're going to have a relationship with God,

and you're going to live a life that most people dream about. You're going to spend more time on airplanes than you do in cars. it all has a purpose. Jimmy, thank you so much for coming on the show. I'm glad we're spending this next week together. Can't wait. I'm excited to speak here in the jail today and also at the conference in a couple days.

You've opened up so much opportunity, and I hope I can return the favor by opening this opportunity up to you and our listeners. And, you know, everyone check out his book from prison to purpose. We'll link everything in the bios and whatnot. And Jimmy, I'm working. on a book, man. I'm going to talks with some people. So I'm gunning for you now. Let's go. I want you to write it. I want you to do it. All right. Let's get it.

All right.