Locked In with Ian Bick - From Prisoner to Probation Officer: My Journey of Survival and Redemption | Michael Justice

Episode Date: October 17, 2024

Michael Justice shares his story of going from a felon in prison to becoming a probation officer. In this episode, we explore the realities of life behind bars, the lessons he learned, and how he transitioned to a role in law enforcement. Michael’s journey offers a fresh look at what it means to rebuild after prison and find purpose in a place many would never expect. #PrisonToProbation #FelonToOfficer #SurvivingPrison #CriminalJusticeJourney #ProbationOfficerLife #LifeAfterPrison #PrisonReform #secondchances Thank you to our sponsors this week: My Bookie: Go to mybookie.website/LOCKEDIN and use promo code LOCKEDIN to double your bankroll with a 100% deposit bonus right from the jump. Hosted, Executive Produced & Edited By Ian Bick: https://www.instagram.com/ian_bick/?hl=en https://ianbick.com/ Connect with Michael Justice: IG: https://www.instagram.com/michaelljustice?igsh=aGN4dmtpMWQ4YXZo YT: https://youtube.com/@progressissuccess?si=kA6oFlFNAkHmgEaF Email: Michaeljusticelifecoach@gmail Presented by Tyson 2.0 & Wooooo Energy: https://tyson20.com/ https://woooooenergy.com/ Buy Merch: https://lockedinbrand.com Use code lockedin at checkout to get 20% off your order Timestamps: 00:00:00 Growing Up in a Military Family 00:05:39 Struggles with Alcohol and Dangerous Behavior 00:10:56 Encounter with the Police Officer 00:16:02 Facing Challenges: Life with a Felony 00:21:01 Navigating Legal Challenges and Public Defenders 00:26:15 Challenges of House Arrest and Probation 00:31:07 Navigating Prison Programs for Early Parole 00:36:17 Life-Altering Moments in Rehabilitation 00:41:18 Comparing Jail and Prison Experiences 00:46:22 Journey of Career Growth and Spiritual Awakening 00:51:05 Orange Juice Incident in Prison 00:56:32 Navigating Employment as a Felon 01:01:23 Balancing Personal History and Professional Identity 01:06:37 Cognitive Behavioral Techniques in Probation 01:11:30 Impact of Supervision on Success 01:17:00 The Principle of Responsivity in Probation 01:21:50 Impactful Conversations Spark System Change Powered by: Just Media House : https://www.justmediahouse.com/ Creative direction, design, assets, support by FWRD: https://www.fwrd.co Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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You are our, we're just doing the math, our fourth guest from Ohio. And I actually think there was a couple more that you don't know. But before we're talking about, our guests that you know, such a small world. And it all started with the sheriff. Yeah, yeah, thank you. Thanks for having me. So, yeah, Lewis and Andrew asked me to give him a shout out. So I'll just get that out there right now.

That's how I got in contact with you was through Louis Essex and Andrew Garns, through Get a Grip podcast. So there's your shout out, Lewis. They are so funny. He texts me. It's like, I'll put my Instagram on this episode, this and that. He'll probably do that for this one. So did you grow up in Ohio? I did. I grew up in Ohio. But before that, my dad was in the Army, so we moved all around. I even lived in Germany at one point. So Germany, Arizona, Texas. I think I lived in Arizona for like eight years, which is all around America, like as a kid. Were your parents together growing up?

Yep. And did you have any siblings? I did. My sister. You know, my sister, she's older. And she, she's in recovery right now as well. So she's hanging in there. Did you guys have a close relationship growing up?

Very close. We're like, you know, real tight. We still talk almost every day now. That must have been helpful doing all the traveling, like new cities and stuff. I can't imagine being like alone or not having a close relationship with your siblings. Definitely. Yeah. Hey, everyone, it's Ian, and I wanted to take a second to say thank you for supporting this podcast. Remember leaving likes and comments on YouTube and reviews on Spotify and Apple,

and even sharing your favorite episodes on social media and to friends and family help tremendously and are a huge way to support this show. Also, if you're interested in coming on the podcast to share your story, you could fill out the online forum at Ian Bick.com, and I will respond to you. to you personally. Now, before we get further into this episode, I wanted to shout out My Bookie for sponsoring today's show. MyBooky is an online sports book with live betting. Get started today by going to mybooky.com website slash locked in and using promo code locked in to double your bankroll with a 100% deposit bonus right from the jump. That's more money, more power to make winning

place. I hope you guys enjoy today's episode. So, yeah, we grew up. I was raised pretty much on the south end of Columbus. That's where I grew up. And, you know, my sister moved out when she was about 15. So, but, you know, so at the, at the, I don't want to dishonor my parents, but to tell my story fully, I have to tell the truth. And I have to tell what really happened through my childhood. So, you know, you know.

My mom and dad at one point were happily married when he was in the service. And when he got out of the service, we settled down in Ohio. And he played in pool leagues. So he would go out and play pool almost every night. And he started sleeping around. And my mom found out my sister and I were in tune to every detail going on in my parents' relationship. I know a lot of people when they think, you know, if we close the door, the kids won't hear it. You think, you know, the kids know what's going on in the household.

You know, we knew, you know, nights that he was sleeping around. We knew that she caught him sometimes. And that went on for years all through my elementary school and middle school. At first he would deny it. He'd say, no, you know, I passed out in my car. You know, that wasn't me or something like that. But eventually he got tired of hiding it and just started saying, yeah, you know, I am. I do.

I did it. You know, yeah, I got a girlfriend. And he would just say something like, you know, I got to get up in four hours ago to work. So my mom would try to argue with him about it, and he would just start hitting her, you know, at one point. So my sister and I would kind of run in to defend her. And that made the abuse worse toward my mom because my dad thought that she was turning us against him. And then the abuse turned toward us. Like I said, my sister moved out at 15, so that left me there.

and I was kind of like the man of the house there for many years. And my mom would, like, try to console in me when she was going through this. And as a kid, you know, eight, nine years old, I didn't really have the tools. I didn't really understand how I could help that situation. So that's what kind of started my life off in a bad trajectory was my childhood. And growing up in that environment, south into Columbus, we moved around quite a bit. I started drinking using marijuana. And then at some point, it was like I gradually became just helpless.

Or I gradually became hopeless. And I would drink until I blacked out. I would, you know, I got multiple DUIs, disorderly conduct, public intoxication, all kinds of misdemeanor charges before I even turned 18. That's kind of what started my life out in the criminal justice system. My first experience with the criminal justice system was with misdemeanors as a juvenile was basically just all drinking related. And what would happen was whenever I drank, the inhibitions would leave. So I never really had a drug problem, but if I was drunk, there was nothing I wouldn't do. You know, I mean, it was like I just became a different person.

And so the drinking was getting heavier. I had a lot of friends that drank and drugged and partied lifestyle crime. I enjoyed doing dangerous things like going out and breaking in a car or robbing someone or doing a burglary. I enjoyed that for some reason, especially. especially once I was drinking. I just took away all my consequential thinking. And like I said, I was on top of this. I was hopeless. I didn't think that I could have any kind of meaningful life. My perception on everything was very skewed because all I had was my world. You know, and my world was everything to me. It was my parents, my sister. And that's what kind of,

that's what I kind of saw everything through was that lens of my family. I thought that was it. And like I said, I was hopeless. One night, it's crazy, 31 years ago today, September 8th, 1995. I did, when you sent me the email to say which date to pick, I didn't even realize that was the anniversary date. but on September 8th of 1995, I was 18 years old for a few months. We used to go to a bar and get served,

and my friend was 21. So we looked, we didn't look anything alike, but he had brown hair too. And we learned that this work somehow. We'd go into a bar, and I'd go in with his ID first. I would use the ID and get served, and then kind of nonchalantly pass him the ID back, and then he'd use it too, and we would drink all night long, and I would drink in bars all the time at 18 years old.

And this one night in particular, though, I was dealing with some rejection. My longtime girlfriend from school broke up with me. But we had this other, it was like a, none of us went with her. Her name was Jody. She was a girl that would drive us around. And I always felt like she liked me, but I was still trying to hang on in this relationship with my childhood girlfriend. And when I got rejected by her, I made a pass at this girl Jody.

She rejected me too. And on top of that, I was already drinking and high and just everything had culminated. And growing up as a kid, I had contemplated suicide many times. I thought about it and for whatever reason would just get distracted. I never went through with it, but I thought about it constantly. And this one night, though, I just decided to do it. I'm like, okay, I'm just going to do it. But I didn't know how.

I'm like, well, I don't have a gun. I don't know of a bridge nearby to jump off of. I could jump out of the car right now, but I don't know if that's going to kill me. It can make my life worse. So as we're pulling into my apartment complex, I saw like a type of, like a crime scene situation where the four or five cops are standing out there and the cop cars are sitting there, but the lights are going. So I told Jody, the girl driving, I said, just let me out right here. She's like, this is not your house.

I said, it's okay, just let me out right here. So she stops. I get out. I walk right up to the cop. and I try to take his gun. In my mind, I'm thinking, okay, they're just going to shoot me. Well, they didn't, obviously. They stopped me, beat me up pretty good, pounding my head in the pavement,

woke up the next day in the county jail with a vague memory of what happened the night before. And that's kind of, you know, what started all this. Did you successfully get the gun out? No. No, in fact, but when I, I had to, when I was trying to go for, I was applying for a pardon. I had to accumulate all this paperwork, like the police report and all this stuff. And the police report says I did, but I know I didn't.

And what did you go up, like, right behind him and on wherever his holster was and just try to grab it? Almost like the way you're facing me now. Yeah. You know, it almost like I wanted to do it, but I thought just by going up and grabbing the gun, I thought if they didn't shoot me, I could turn it on myself. But I thought for sure, if I grab his gun, they're just going to shoot. shoot me. That was the thought. So, I mean, I was like facing him. Just walked right up to him. As soon as I get out of the car, it kind of got their attention. So they're kind of looking what

this guy doing. I just walk up and tried to grab his gun. How does it make you feel thinking about that if you, you know, stumbled across the wrong cop that we often see in the news, you wouldn't be here right now? I think about that. Yeah, it's, I feel grateful. I'm blessed, obviously. And it's also an opportunity for me, you know, I'm in the criminal justice system. So it's something that I keep in mind, you know, I think that, yeah, exactly, the wrong cop or him just having a different type of day. You know, I mean, I should have, I should be debt. You know, he could have lawfully shot me no questions asked, I'm sure. Do you think he took a second to understand that maybe you were someone with a mental health issue that was trying to grab it and his life wasn't actually in danger?

I think so. You got lucky with those odds that you just happened to have you talked to that officer ever? I had never talked to him. I did reach out to him when I was working through like a 12-step program to make amends. So I reached out to him but never got a response. It was years ago. And you don't encounter him at the jail or the prison you work in. No, it was so long ago. He was already, you know, I want to say he was probably already in his 30s. So I imagine he's retired now. So this was 1995. So do you ever have nightmares about that day?

No, not that day. And like I said, I only had vague memories of it. When I read it, when I read it what happened, it kind of makes more sense. I can kind of get a better picture of it. But because I was so drunk and at that time I was drinking every day heavily, so I didn't really remember it. It's not like a lot of other memories that I have that are chronological. That one's kind of fragmented. Do you feel like you're lashing out in your life because of your relationship with your dad?

It had a lot to do with it. Yeah. And I want to say this too. My mom and dad are like my best friends now, and we have a great relationship and they're different people too. So they've grown quite a bit too and there's no resentment there or anything. But yeah, the relationship with my dad and the things that the things I grew up with was definitely, it was definitely a factor in what happened.

You know, most people would think, you know, from the onset looking in that a military family, it's very structured and everything's normal because their parent is in the military. So it's, you know, you wouldn't hear about these types of situations, but it is very real and it does happen where they are like broken families. Yeah, definitely. During the childhood. Did you meet any other kids in your position when you guys were moving around at all? That way, I experienced that. No, not really.

And I think that was part of it, too. I never had anything solid. I didn't have a support group. I didn't really, you know, I didn't get, I didn't have a chance to get close to anybody either. And something else I wanted to point out, too, is that my dad, was the first man my mom had ever been with. A lot of people think, well, why didn't she just leave? You know, she had kids.

And in her defense, she was a kid herself. You know, the way I compare my childhood is that me, my sister, and my mom were more like siblings than mom, daughter, son. You know what I mean? We were, all three of us were kind of in it together. And the dynamic of that relationship, like I said, my dad saw it. and I think that he was so caught up in his lifestyle, he didn't have the wearerthal to think, well, I'm causing it.

No, it was more like, well, this is how it is, and it made it worse. Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, a reoccurring theme on the show, just it really does all start with the childhood. Absolutely. Very rarely does the person have a perfect childhood, and then just like a light switches and they're going to, you know, commit crime or whatever happens to them. Most of the time it is that childhood.

Right. And when you look at the criminal justice system and rehabilitation and reentry and stuff, maybe there should be some attention and focus on that. I agree with that. I think that's the percentage of people that I've encountered, too, like probably 99% come from a broken home. So when you got arrested that day, they brought you the county jail. How are they treating you inside the facility? Because they don't really know what they don't know what's going on in your mind. They think you're probably public enemy number one.

Right. So just and with GP, so it was or general population. So I was just in there. You know, I mean, there was no suicide watch or anything like that. Not that I can recall. I know they do have that available. If they know someone suicidal, not sure. And what do they charge you with?

That's a good question. So I was doing some research on it before I got here. So the first one was I had a gun specification, aggravated robbery, felony one, and several other felonies were the initial charge, right? And, you know, I didn't know nothing about it. I'm like, you know, I get up the next day, I wake up in the county jail, I got this road rash all over my face.

I don't know anything about the system. I'm a kid. And I have these felony charges. And in Ohio, we call them the Grim Reaper. It's the deputy that comes around and passes out the indictment. Well, somewhere in this paperwork is said 25 to life. You know, and obviously, knowing now what I know about the system and everything, you had to plead guilty and you could take it to trial and you have rights. And, you know, but just seeing that, you know, just seeing that on that paper like 25 to life felony won.

I know this is serious. And did you have a first, like, initial conversation with your parents? How did they react? Oh, yeah. That, so, yeah, I mean, my mom was obviously devastated by it. You know, we were friends as I was when I was a kid. pretty good relationship. My mom and I did. My dad, I'm paraphrasing here, was pretty much like, you know, you got yourself in it, you know, get yourself out. And I don't blame him. And I'm actually

grateful for that now. But now that I'm in hindsight looking at how everything turned out, you know, I could have never, I could never foresee that. You know, I already thought my life was over before I committed the felony. And now I have all these, I still had all these problems. And now I got this felony, too. So it can always get worse. No one really understands how, much worse it could get if you think you're at the bottom. There's always a little bit lower level to that. What about your sister at this time? Was she going through the same struggles? I know you said she's in recovery now, but back at that time, was she? So my sister, like I said, she moved out when she was about 15. She had got her family of her own, ended up getting married, having two kids,

and got addicted to opiates real early on. And at that time, I didn't even know about her problem with opiates or drugs. I didn't even know she had experiential drugs. She was always the good one. I was the one that was always, you know, they would tell me, like, why don't you be more like your sister? She was on honor roll, graduated and everything. But it was later in life after she had her kids when she tried a Laura tab. And that's what got her and her downward spiral. But when that happened, I mean, she would come to jail. Her, my mom, and my dad would come to visit me in jail. And, you know, they were, and, you know, it tore them up because they'd see me. You know, I'm in here 18 years old. fighting for my food, you know, they come to visit me. I got a black eye, obviously in

they're fighting a lot and just doing everything I can to survive. Why were people targeting you in there? You would think that they'd look at you as like, you know, some God or something for trying to assault police because they don't know the details of what's going through your mind. Right. Yeah, I didn't get any mercy from the other inmates. I did a couple older inmates, man, like befriended me, man, and kind of took me under their wing, which I was really grateful for, because I was terrified. And waking up in the county jail at 18 years old, not knowing anything about anything, and being in this environment now with real, I mean, you're just mixed in with everybody.

You know, in your general population, I got rapists, murderers, people in there facing serious time that really were looking at like 25 years. They had nothing to lose a lot of these guys. So it was terrifying, man. And, you know, going in as a young kid, you know, you're the prey. You know what I mean? So I was honestly prayed upon quite a bit. My commissary would get taken.

If I go to a visit, I'm kind of stressed out about it. I'm like, you know, I think my commissary is probably going to get taken when I go back to the pod. Sure enough, come in there, my box is empty. The commissary is all gone. Take your shoes, your socks, toothbrush, everything. Let's take a quick pause to talk about sports. Let's face it, 2020. has been full of surprises, kind of like when you think you're getting out of prison early,

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More plays, more wins, more. cash in your account, no strings attached. Now let's get back into today's episode with Michael Justice. Was there a moment, though, that brought that upon you? Because, you know, like what they say, if you stand up for yourself the first time, they'll leave you alone. Did you drop the ball on something that caused that to happen? Yeah, I mean, just basically not knowing that. Not knowing that initially when I walked in, you know, they would take, you know, they'd get your trade taken initially until you kind of learn to get in the front of the line. Just kind of gradual, gradually started standing up for myself and eventually didn't have to fight anymore.

So did anyone come to you with like a psychological help? Like did they send a therapist to you or anything? Did they look at that case as a mental health issue off the bat? No. So they just treated you like a normal, I guess, someone that was attempting to maybe harm a cop from their mind? I think so, yeah. Wow. So did they give you bail or no, they kept you in there?

I did get a bond. So what happened was they gave me. So the public defender, when he came to me the first time, that said 25 to life. He said, you're not going to get that. So I was kind of assured by him that I wasn't going to do 25 years. He said, this is what they do. This is just kind of initially like what they offer.

He said, you could plead guilty of this, but don't. He said, they're going to come with a bunch of better deal. So the next time they came around as I was sitting in jail, they came with a three to 10-year sentence, suspended four years of probation with work release, and house arrest, but get out that day on an OR bond. So I took it. So I'm thinking now, obviously, in hindsight, I could have got a better deal if I would have

been willing to sit in jail longer. But at that time, you know, 18 years old, I just didn't have, I didn't know anything. How long did it take? I just knew. I just knew I wanted out, right? So I'm like, they said sign here. You get out to, basically I'm not even looking at three to 10 years sense. Okay.

I don't really, I'm not looking at the, I'm not looking at the details of it. When I heard I could get out that day, I'm like, yeah, I'll sign anything. How long did it take for them to offer you that deal? That's a good question. I'm sure it, like a couple months. That's not bad. No. So do you think something changed in their mind, like the evidence or something, that they were shifted?

That's a big difference. That could be. Yeah. Yeah, they could have hung you out to dry because they had the only evidence you had was yourself, your word, right? Yeah. What was going through your mind? Yeah.

And, you know, like when I started accumulating this paperwork to apply for my part and I saw some of the police reports. And in it, they questioned me once they arrested me. And I told the truth because I was drunk. I told them exactly what I tried to do. So, you know, they considered that attempted murder with that, with the intentions I had to pull that gun out. How hard is it reflecting back and looking at those documents and seeing like, you know, you were an entirely different person? And that's like when you look at old memories on social media or, you know, anything related. It's just like it's a whole different period of time.

Absolutely. Looking back at it is surreal, honestly, especially when I read the police reports. Like, man, that's how I, that's what I did. And some of it's embarrassing. Like some of the one of them had a, it was a, they ended up charging me with public intoxication, but I had wrecked into a parked car while I was drunk. And it said in the police report that I had yearn or. I'd wrecked into a park car and passed out like that.

And just wild, I'd read that. Like, man, I don't remember. I remember doing a lot of these things, but it's there. Yeah, I mean, growing up, I never really thought drinking was, like, related to drugs, but it's just as bad, if not worse. You know, drinking has a huge effect on you. Absolutely. And I think with me, once I drank, it opened up all kinds of other doorways for anything else.

You know, like I said, my sister had an opiate addiction, but I was fortunate in the fact that I'd never been offered that when I was out doing these things or I definitely would have done it because I didn't care. And once I drank, though, it was like I would be willing to do anything. Somebody could hand me a handful of pills and I could take them. I wouldn't care. So that was like the most dangerous to be, even today, the most dangerous thing about alcohol is what it does as far as like just the, the, the way. way that it lowers your inhibitions and allows anything else in. So you took that deal and you didn't have to serve a day in jail at all, aside from the county jail? So, well, I had to do work release, and that's pretty much jail, but you get to leave half the day in work

and then house arrest. But yeah, that's basically it. They gave me a layup had I taken it. So I did the work release successfully. I did the house arrest successfully. As soon as I was off house arrest, It was business back to usual. It was back to drinking, drinking and driving, drugging, whatever. And I ended up catching, like, a few more DUIs and another couple misdemeanors. And I'm in the county jail one day. And they came in there and said, Justice, roll it up. And that's the term they used to roll up your mat.

So I said, okay, I'm getting out. So I gave away my commissary. and I think somebody traded me mattresses because I had been in there a little while. So I had a better mattress. So I traded that off. And instead of letting me out, they took me upstairs to the felony pod. And that's when I realized all the probation violation. Why do you think that you went that period of time with, you know, on track from getting charged, getting that deal?

And everything was good. And then as soon as you're off house arrest, it's back to square one. That's a great question. I think it was because of the accountability that it gave me. Like, you know, in work release, like I said, it's pretty much jail, but you're working half the day. So then you got staffed there. You're accountable. You're giving urine screens.

I mean, it was just like, I think that's it. They were just holding me more accountable. I had that structure, you know, on house arrest, the fact that I was just at home. I did really, I guess, different temptations. You know, once I got that bracelet off and just had probation, it was almost like, And I was just off to the races after that. So do you think it was an inevitable, like you, if you got no house arrest and just probation, would day one after you got released, would you have been back on that track?

Or do you think it was just that lull period? I think I would have been. Yeah, I think I would have been right back at it because of just who I was at that time and what I had lacked. You know, a lot of people asked me like, what do you think your problem was? At that time, I don't think it was a problem that I necessarily had. was more so what I lacked. And, yeah, I think the fact that I had that I had kind of eyes on me, you know, like the

house arrest thing, I couldn't really, there wasn't much I could do. I've been learning a lot about the work release programs because I visited a couple correctional facilities and we had the warden on or the superintendent on one of them in Tennessee and we're actually going back next month to see him again. It's a fascinating program. And what was it like from your perspective? What kind of jobs were you doing? So at the time, I was working for my uncle that owned a pallet company.

He's since passed away. But he had like his own business doing repairing pallets. So I was able to get out half the day and do that. And I actually liked, I mean, work release, it was pretty good for the most part. As far as like if you have to be incarcerated, I would much rather do that than jail time. Oh, that's interesting. You had to pick your own place. I think a lot of the work release programs, they just assign you one or they get you into that position because it's approved by the state.

Okay. And so you were able to work with your uncle. I wonder if a lot of people kind of screw that off and set it up where like it might not actually be work. Yeah, I bet. Oh, yeah, I definitely think they would do that. Yeah. In fact, when I worked at a correctional facility years later, like they would have to give itinerary verifications. The correctional facility I worked at the time, they could also go out and work.

And we will verify that kind of thing. So I'm sure that there's like checks and balances in place to prevent that. How much of your pay were you able to keep? Oh, so it was at the time, I can't even believe I remember this. So whatever your hourly rate was, you paid that plus a buck a day. You had to pay that to the prison. To the work release program. So if you were making $20 an hour, you would just pay $21 for the day.

21 a day. That's not bad. That's not bad at all. And back then it was probably a lot cheaper. for the pay. Yeah, I think I was paying seven bucks a day because my uncle was paying me

minimum wage. Do they hold the money in an account for you or do you get to keep that? I think so. I think you turn in all the money and they put on your books and then they take theirs off the top.

Yeah, I think the work release program is such a great concept because you can provide for your kids, send them presents, you know, around the holidays, birthdays, all of that. I feel like it's such a better alternative

because you still have the punishment aspect but you're also enforcing the rehabilitation aspect. Right, I agree. And I like that too because you're not just consuming, right? You're also contributing by going out and paying taxes as well because you're sure taking them by sitting in a facility like that, right? Yeah, so you do pay taxes on that money even as an inmate? Yeah. So if you're in work release, you're getting tax just like you normally would. Because I don't think you have to file your federal taxes, right? If you're in prison, if you're in prison. That's a good question. I know I never did, but I had no income. Yeah, I don't know.

But then I know, like, people that were in prison that got the, what's it called, the tax credit thing. Okay, yeah. The $1,200 bucks during COVID. I wonder if they had to file taxes. I guess not because you can't, like, get on turbo tax or anything. That's so interesting. So now you get jammed up again and you're back in the county jail and they put you on the felony pod or the probation violation pod. What happens next?

So from there, I get my three to 10-year sentence and pick away, and this was under the old law in Ohio, which meant, and to my knowledge, this went on for years, the tail system, they called it a tail. It was basically like, if they gave you a three-to-10-year sentence, you had to at least do three, but you could do 10 depending on your behavior. And it was kind of their approach to try to, you know, an approach toward rehabilitation. You earn your outdate with merit based on what you do. So they gave me a 3 to 10. And, you know, I get in there and obviously I didn't want to stay. So some older inmates was telling me, hey, man, get in every program you can to look good for the parole board. They said, do that.

And that's what I did. And at the time I went to a prison called Pickaway. And they had a lot. They had, you could get your GED in there. They had several programs that were. would help you with your thinking and drug abuse and all kinds of things like that. Grief counseling. I mean, it was just one group they had called Rational Motive Therapy.

They had a therapeutic community in there. They had college courses. And I took everything I could. So that was my intention at first was to look good for the parole board. But once I was in there, some of the things that people were saying was starting to sink in. And I didn't know, this was so crazy to it. When I was in prison, I was 21. years old, I had learned for the first time that my thoughts created my emotions. I didn't know that

until I went through a program. The reason why that was so profound to me is because I never, I didn't know that. I didn't know. I thought that my behavior was based on my emotions and that I didn't really have any control of my emotions. I just kind of thought like, I looked at my life like I was like kind of a leaf blown in the wind. The circumstance was dictating everything, right? Once I took a class in there called rational motive therapy, and that's what taught me that, was that my emotions were a result of my thoughts.

Once I learned that, it gave me hope because I realized, wow, I can change this. And it was almost like a catalyst toward everything else that ended up happening. I did that program. I did this one called the Oasis program, where it was almost like the inmates were running it. I excelled in that. I obtained my GED.

I attended some college courses. I went through grief counseling, anger management, A-A-N-A, went to church in there, got baptized. I mean, when I said I took everything they had to offer, I took it all. I went to the pro. So let me tell you this story. There was this paper floating around the prison through inmates, and it was like a guideline that they had under the old.

law because at this time, this was 1998, 1999, somewhere around in there. They were phasing out of the tail. They were no longer going to give tails. They were going to give flat time. So instead of a three to ten-year sentence, they would just give somebody five or something like that. So in order to phase that out, they were trying to come up with a guideline for the people that were still under the old law to say, hey, let's come up with something concrete

to where it's not so much guesswork. Somebody would go up to the parole board with a three to ten, and someone would get five, Some would get the full 10. Some would get released that day. And it was just all over the place. So they wanted more of a structure based on your charge in the degree of your felony. So I had an aggravated attempted robbery, which was a felony three. And I know that sounds weird because of the type of charge that it was.

But the way they explained it to me was when I attempted to take that cop's gun, it was the same thing as trying to take a woman's purse. And because it was a gun, that's why the aggravated parts in there. So under that guideline, it said attempted robbery was the three-year minimum. But if it was aggravated, it was a five-year minimum. And I'm reading that paper. I'm like, man, I'm going to have to do five years because there was the gun involved. And I'm sitting there and I'm depressed.

And at this time, I'm like a counselor in this Oasis program. I got other younger inmates that I mentor. And I'm in this group setting where we're in there. it's like a counseling session, but it's done mainly with the inmates, but there's one actual staff member that's a real licensed counselor. He kind of facilitates the group, but lets the inmates run it for the most part. So I'm sitting in there, and normally I'm upbeat and I'm positive, and like I said, I'm mentoring other inmates,

but in this one particular group, I was reading that guideline. I was really sad about it. I was down. I wasn't talking. I wasn't engaged in the group. I wasn't participating, which wasn't like. me so they were kind of probing me like hey man what's wrong you know you got something to talk about come on come on they were all encouraging me to talk and i said you know what man i actually i just

want to be alone right now and um the counselor said uh well he said uh if the group agrees with that then i'll agree with it so he said does the group does anybody in the group have a problem with him leaving and it's you know i said i just i said i just want to go work out because at the time at the a They had an A-frame. I did that with all my free time. I said, I just want to go work out, man. I tried to get this off my mind. And the group agreed.

They said, that's fine. They said, go ahead. So I left, and this was probably November-ish. I'm out there doing dips and pull-ups. And then this was something like out of a movie, man. I look, and down the little walkway there, here comes my whole group coming down there. And the yard's empty right now, probably because it's so cold out. that my whole group comes to the

comes out to the yard man and goes to the A-frame and the counselor says I know that you don't want to be left alone but when people want to be left alone is when they don't need to be alone he said so this is going to be the group today so we just we worked out

and the counselor was even doing push-ups and shit it was wild man it was great so when that happened that was another profound moment in my life because the way that he impacted me I decided, I said, I want to do that for other people. He doesn't even know how much that affected me because I reached out to him on Facebook probably a couple years ago and I mentioned that.

And he said, I don't even remember that. I said, man, it changed my life. And he doesn't remember it. But it was a great moment for me for sure. So even though that you completed the work release program and then house arrest, because you violated the actual probation, you still had to do the full three to ten or we're still facing that. Yeah, they gave me some jail time credit.

for the time that I was in jail waiting to plead guilty and the work release, I believe they gave me credit for, but yeah. That's crazy how it just resets everything in your, you know, that's a huge flaw in the system right there. Because it doesn't, they're not counting all the time you technically did serve before. Wow. So out of that three to ten, how much do you end up serving? Under three years. So with the work release, the time in jail, and the time in pickaway. was all under three years. When I went to the parole board the first time, they gave me a continuance,

which is the worst thing. You don't want a continuance because then it's like you still don't know when you're getting out. So that was almost like another movie moment. Some of these memories when I look back on, I can't even believe they were real. But they said, we're going to continue for a year. So I went there, buttoned up, had all my, had a, basically a portfolio of all the certificates that they had. And I'd showed them everything I'd done in prison.

And they said, we're going to give you a year continuance. And we'll revisit this. They said, keep up to go work though. They said, we don't want this to discourage you. So I walked out of there. And, like, of course, I was devastated. And this other inmate came back and grabbed me and said, hey, man, they want you back in there. I said, okay.

So I walked back up the stairwell and go back in there. And they said, we thought about it. we decided to go ahead and give you a year, but it's not going to be a continuance. We're going to give you the year with an out date. So I was ecstatic, obviously. I mean, I knew when I was getting out. I didn't want to do another year, but I was still grateful that they didn't give me five or the whole thing or anything could have happened.

So the fact I had that outdate was a huge relief. Did you have a better experience in actual prison because of what you learned at the operations in county jail? Do people that have never been incarcerated have no idea? like the jail and prisons like night and day, right? Jail, I saw some of the worst, egregious, just inhumane type shit that you can imagine. Prison was like, it's like a small city almost, you know. I'm sure you, I mean, federal prisons, they're even bigger.

Yeah. Why do you think it's so different? That's a good question. I guess jail, it's more like cattle. You know, you're just moving bodies in and out and it's more of a revolving door, right? Prisoners not as much movement, so things are calmer, right? You got people that have been sitting in prison for five, ten years. They're already established.

You have a culture in prison. Jail, the culture is going to fluctuate a lot more because one inmate can change that, right? I think the movement is the biggest thing. How many discounts does USA auto insurance offer? Too many to say here. Multi-vehicle discount. New vehicle discount. Storage discount.

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and placebo arm. RX only. To stay informed about serious side effects, go to row.com slash safety. That movement and that, that instability. Do you think that there's a way to streamline

so they're both the same? Or do you think that they keep it intentionally like that? Good question. Streamline to streamline it. So I just would have to wrap my mind around what that would look like like from the whole process,

from the time you commit a crime to sentencing and being in one place. I don't know. It would be different. I wonder that that would probably change the political atmosphere of the prison and gangs and everything. Oh, absolutely. Because it's kind of like an even playing field. And it's like a revolving door.

Right. Because there's less politics from what I've seen in like the detention centers and the jails because it's more people coming in and out, different things going. You can't really establish yourself there. Right. But then in the prison, guys could be there, you know, 20 years. Right. And they're holding their authority and ground. Right. So which do you think is the better culture, the jail or the prison culture?

Well, prison is definitely a better culture. But I mean, they both have pros and cons when you put them up. You know, like jail has worse food, worse conditions could be more dangerous. But prison normally better food, you know, better circumstances. But then you also have like the political aspect where you can't really be by yourself and you have to follow these rules. and there might be too much freedom in the prison thing, but then on the jail aspect, there might be too little freedom. So if there was like an equal balance, I don't know, it could be better. Gotcha. Yeah, my experience in the jail system was just it actually, I'm grateful for it now because I never want to go back.

That's for one thing. The prison experience the same thing. I've got some experiences in prison that make me never want to go back as well, especially one year the hot water went out. So we were, you know, cold showers in November. There's icicles on the spigot. You know, I remember that. I remember that vividly.

You know, I remember a specific guard that I had an encounter with. I remember just the depressing, you know, you could see there's some, there's windows pickaway, but there's like bars on them. But you could just, every once in a while, you'd vaguely see like a car's headlights go by, like in the distance, you know, way off in the one of those back roads there. and it was like, man, it's just so depressing. You know what I mean? Like, I thought I was depressed before.

Like, now, now I have something really to be depressed about. There's nothing worse than a forced cold shower. Like, you can take it. It's a different mindset. And then something to. And then you look at like, yeah, like I do it today now for like the health and longevity and, you know, reducing inflammation and stuff. Yeah, but when you have to do it, you don't have the choice.

It's a different aspect. Yeah, that is way worse. And you're just like in and out quick. And it's not the same experience. Right. So when you got out, what did life look like for you after that? So I got out, it was a struggle, right? I got out September 9th of 1999.

So everything happened always in September. September 9th of 99, I get out with everything that I got in prison is pretty much it. I didn't have a lot of job experience. Before I got locked up, all I did was work at like Bob Evans and fast food and stuff. So here I am out here. Nobody wanted to hire me. Got married and had a kid shortly after being out. And, you know, I had to provide, so I had to do whatever I could.

I worked at Superior Toll and Die. They make bumpers for Mack trucks. It's an assembly line with bumpers on it. Very hard labor, 12 hours a day, summertime, seven days a week. That was a really good job I had because when I got out, I live with my mom. I didn't have nothing. I had a little cubby, a little cubby space. It wasn't even a room, but I was much better than being.

in a prison cell. And even though it wasn't much, it was mine. And it was a start. I saved up a lot of money working at that superior plant and was able to get an apartment, get my license back, get a car back. When I got out of prison, I still had so much shit pending for my license. I had to go back and take the test. I had to pay thousands of dollars toward restitution fees. All them charges, they didn't just go away just because I went to prison. It was all sitting there waiting on me when I got out. So I had the added pressure of that, getting a job. And then like I said, when I got married and had a kid I had to provide, so it was tough. I worked any job that I could. I ended up at a place called Columbus Steel. It was formerly Buckeye Steel before that. It was a union job, and they shut down,

and I was one of the very first employees they hired under this new company name called Columbus Steel. This is like by far the toughest work I've ever done. It was running a grinder, a handheld grinder working on these frame cars and got a couple times I was on fire you know you got chisels flying by your face you get killed there when you're pushing a broom that's how dangerous this place was but I worked there for three months and I was gonna stay but it was it was hard-ass work but the supervisor one day came to me on a Friday and said you're starting second shift Monday and just walked on and that's it was it was just a real hardcore culture there and that was like the best thing he did for me.

At the time I was pissed. I'm like, man, they demoted me for no reason. They're putting me on second shift, no notice. It was the best thing that happened to me because what I did was during the day I started job looking and got something better, which was a warehouse job. The warehouse job I excelled in, and they made me what was called a training specialist there. And that was bringing in a group of new hires. It would be like a class up to like, I think the biggest class every day was like 30 people.

But it was like public speaking because of them. I'm in this classroom and I got to teach them the warehouse operations. And I did that. And by me doing that class, they didn't have a lot of money at this company, but the HR manager was really empowering. She would find creative ways on getting us training courses. You know, she sent me to this thing for Microsoft Excel and Microsoft, because I barely knew how to send an email at this time. I was brand new in life pretty much. So she would give me these extra opportunities to learn computer skills.

And then that opened up another door. And that's kind of how every career worked for me. Each career was almost like a finger in a glove hole. Each time I would pick something up from each job and take it to my next career, which helped me advance. So I worked that job. I want to say I did that for about three years. And, yeah.

So I did that job for about three years, kind of feeling empty. You know, I feel like this is a great career or it's a great opportunity, but I feel like there's something more. And one day I was in the car and I was feeling sorry for myself, but at this time I was real serious in the prayer. I was reading the Bible every day. And I said this prayer. I was like, God, you know, if this is the career or if this is the life you have chose

for me, then that's fine. I'll do it. I don't want to complain. This is a job that you gave me. I didn't deserve this. As soon as I get done with that prayer, I look up and there's a koda bus going by, and there's a sign on the side of it. And on the side of this kodubus, you got a picture of praying hands, and I said, I have better things in store for you. And it was just right at that moment when I looked up, and I felt like God was telling me to just hang in there that there was something better in store later.

And it was not the first time I had a spiritual awakening, but it was definitely the most powerful one that I had ever had. and it gave me a boost of confidence and tenacity because I felt like, well, if that's true, then there's nothing that can stop me. If there is really a divine plan for my life, then nothing's going to stop me. I'm just going to stop setting limits for myself and just really just go out and try to pursue anything I can. A little while later, I ran into a friend of mine that I was incarcerated with. When I say a friend, it wasn't just an acquaintance.

We were good friends. We were spade partners in there. We're bunkeys at one point. We started our bid together. We started up in the Pickaway program. We got to Pickaway at the same time. We damn near left Pickaway at the same time. We got into the Oasis program at the same time.

And we were just like best friends in there. Out of all people to run into on my way home, I see him. And he's so distinctive. I know it was him. His name was Bill, but everybody in jail called him Beetlejuice. And so I stopped and we catch up. And he told me what happened. He had relapsed a couple of times and been locked up a few times.

after being released from Pickaway. And he said, well, what are you doing? I said, man, I'm thinking about getting back into counseling. I told him what I was doing at this warehouse. I said, but I want to be a counselor. He said, man, you should go to the program I just got kicked out of. And that's the program that I met Lewis and Andrew.

And that program, I never even knew existed. It was a correctional facility, but it was similar to a work release. And I went there and just to see kind of on a whim, you know, having this new confidence, I went there and applied in the gaming opportunity. I had an interview. So I'm sitting in the parking lot of this job interview, ready to go in for this job interview. I'm sitting in the parking lot.

And at this point, like I said, all I had was really prison. But I had done some other things outside of that. So I'm like, man, and I know I didn't want to go in there and mention prison because I needed to focus on the things that I had done since then. So I'm like in the parking lot trying to prepare for this interview. And I'm like, don't mention prison. don't mention prison. I get in there and they're like,

so what do you think qualifies you for this job? I said, first off, I've been to prison. The first thing I said, so I thought I bombed it. I thought it was the worst interview I gave, but they gave me a second interview. The second one, they brought the director in, like, hey, what do you think of this? You know, I don't know.

Do you want to give this guy a shot? They gave me a shot on third shift. I went to third shift, and I just continued to excel. I became a shift supervisor. And on from that, in that position, when I was there, now it's different. But at that time, you could not get promoted

unless you had a bachelor degree. So I tried going to college. I was going to college and working in this correctional facility where the hours were heavy. It was like sometimes 60, 70 hours a week. And I'm like, man, I can't do this in college. There's just no way. So I was doing everything I could, really burning the candle at both ends.

I'm studying while I'm at work, doing whatever I can. I finally decide, let me quit this job for a while and get my degree and then come back. And they agreed to that. I left on good terms. So I resigned there and just was really doing nothing except for schoolwork. I did that for a couple months. But once I was able to focus solely on school, it didn't take long to get the degree.

So I had probably like four or five classes left. And they really needed staff again back at that place. And I was running out of money. So I went back and applied and they hired me again. I ended up working there for like a couple more years. And I almost had my degree. And, well, I got to go back here. So there was this moment in Pickaway when this prison guard snapped at me when I asked him if I could have orange juice instead of grapefruit.

So I'm walking through the Chow line and they had orange juice this day and they never had orange juice. But I'm in the grapefruit juice line. It's like a letter U the way the chow hall was. So I walk up there and I'm like, oh, man, they got orange juice over there. So I said, let me just ask this guard if he minds if I grab that instead. So I go up there and said, excuse me, sir, you care if I grab an orange juice? instead of the grapefruit juice? He said, you motherfuckers think this is a hotel, don't you sit down?

When he did that, that's, I could remember that guard's face and everything. But when he did that, like I said, it had a profound impact. When I got out of prison, I would think about that guard a lot because I didn't want to make a bad mistake and go back. But when I had worked in that correctional facility so long, 10 years, I had became almost, I was feeling like a prison guard. I'd be monitoring the cafeteria during child time and an inmate would come up to me,

a young kid would say, hey, you mind if I do this? How about the? And I would, I almost felt like saying what that guard said to me. And I'm like, well, this isn't why I wanted to do this. You know, I wanted that, that counselor moment when that counselor impacted me.

That's what I really wanted to do. But because this was a jail, it wasn't, it was, for one thing, I wasn't in a position to really counsel people. and two, it wasn't the, it wasn't, how can I say this? The jail, when I worked in that jail, the security was paramount over anything else. That's what I'll say. And that's not, that's not what I wanted to do.

I wasn't so much of a security person as I was a counselor. It just so happened that when I had to give directives, when I had to tell inmates, you know, go from point A to point B or to tell them to stop. I used my experience in what I had had in prison. Nobody in there knew that I had been locked up, but I had used that. I had empathy toward them. I knew what it was like living out of a locker box. That's what helped me do that job so well was the fact that I respected them. But ultimately, it wasn't really what I wanted to do because I wanted that moment like what I experienced on the prison yard that day.

So I started seeking some other options and the probation. department where I work for now, they had an entry-level position available, and I applied for that, and the plan was to apply for that and to become a probation officer once I worked my way up. Again, you needed a degree, which I was close. So while in the entry-level position, I obtained the degree, and then I applied four different times and was denied and finally got it on the fifth one. And now you're a probation officer. I'm a probation officer. I've been a probation officer a little over two years. That's so crazy that you had a criminal record and turned into a probation officer. So that job,

that jail you were working at, elaborate out what the details are, like what type of charges are there? Is it common that felons are hired or do you have to have, you know, extenuating circumstances? What are the specifics? That's a great question. So I wasn't the first felon they had hired. There had been several. The very first inmate in that correctional facility became staff. He became a staff member once he got out. He was the first shift supervisor that I had worked for. When I first got the job, the stipulations were for first-time non-violent felony offenders could get the program as a sentencing option instead of prison.

So that was the criteria. While working in there, they had changed that. This bill had passed. I want to say it was Senate Bill 81. I could be wrong on that. It was something like that that passed that said, Hey, even though if it's their instant offense, they still have to have a non-violent offense if that's what they're being sent there for. But they can also be sent for parole and probation violations.

So now the whole culture started changing because we were getting a different type of inmate to where before it would be a kid like you or me, you know, first offense, 18 years old. Now it was a lot of people that had numbers. the people coming out of Lucasville prison and stuff like that. So I found myself doing like use of forces, you know, restraints, putting people in isolation and wrestling with these kids. And like, man, this is not what I signed up for, man. This isn't, I wanted to be a counselor. I didn't want to do like restraint.

I didn't want to be a prison guard. So that's kind of where I think, and I'm glad you asked that question because I kind of missed that piece. So during that, like, I remember going to family reunion. while working there. And I had this big scratch on my neck and a black eye. And they said, what happened? I said, wrestling with this kid at work. And they said, man, I thought you was a counselor.

I said, I did too. Because for a long time in my career there, I was able to counsel people and persuade them. But it had changed once they changed that law. So as far as like felons working there, they do hire felons. It just has to be, they want to, you know, rehabilitate it, whatever that means.

That term is subjective. But if they feel like you've been rehabilitated, I think they'll give you a chance there even now. How are they so sure? Like, what's a background check process? Because it's not as cut and dry. It's not like felon, no felon, like most law enforcement jobs. How did – what does that process to get approved? That's a good question.

I don't know. I don't know what that is. Yeah, I think they look at the details of the offense, you know, and think, you know, well, how long ago was it? That's a big thing. How long ago did it happen? Two years ago, year ago. mine had been quite a while. When I applied there, I had been out.

See, I started working there in 2000. I'd been out for seven years. That's so interesting. Do you know if other states do this? I don't. I think they should. I think they should. If for nothing else,

the empathy that you could have for an inmate after being an inmate is something that most people aren't going to have. But on that note, though, do you feel like there's a lot of room to go beyond what the rules allow you to do because you've been in that person's shoes and you might feel sorry for them and that might open up a territory where it's kind of a gray area? Absolutely, it can. And it has. It has. I have felt conflicted many times. You know, something I don't like doing as lying to people, you know, I don't want to trick anybody. You know, it's like, you know, sometimes they would whisper like,

hey, this guy's got a pending charge, but don't say nothing about it. Or what's a good one? Hey, we got to arrest this guy when he comes in, don't tell him. Just tell him he's here for this or that. You know what I mean? I don't like that aspect of it. That's where I feel the conflict. So I want to be honest, and I do know what it's like being in jail.

So I take that kind of seriously. If I got somebody sitting in jail from something I filed, a piece of paper that I filed, if I put, how can I explain? I can't mention too much about the details. But so I guess that's my point is that if I arrest someone and put them in jail. I understand what that's like. So I don't want to, I don't want to put them in there longer than I have to. I want to use the minimal consequence to get the desired behavior. What do you think would have happened if they found out about your record, the inmates? Well, they are now. So

how they are now, but back then, yeah. Oh, back then, it was mixed. So some people would come in there that I was locked up with. So that would happen once in a while. And that was kind of a cool feeling. and made me feel good because it was like, you know, I'm doing better than a lot of my peers were at that time. And it was just a reminder that, man, I could be in here with this guy again. You know, me and him was in a cell together many years ago and I could be in this situation still had I not changed. Inmates will find out it would go either way. Sometimes they would respect it. Sometimes they'd look at you like, you're a traitor.

You know, like, oh, you know what it's like and you're still doing this. You know, I just feel like for the greater good, I think it's good that I'm in this position because I really want to help them. Sometimes that does come in the form of jail time. It's unfortunate. I want to arrest the problem, not the person, but sometimes we got to arrest the person in order to do that. So being in the position as a like correctional officer, so to say, and as a former inmate, does that show you things that when you were an inmate you might not have seen before? but now that you're in those shoes, you see that perspective? Absolutely.

And that's where I kind of, when I had that experience, like I said, I'm monitoring the cafeteria. And I'd always remembered that prison guard being, like I kind of get a sense of where they're coming from because they're overworked. They're understaffed. You know, that prison guard that yelled at me that day, he may have been working 60 or 70 hours. I don't know. Not to excuse it. Still no reason to treat somebody, but I didn't know the circumstances. But now that I've been in that environment, now that I've worked in it, I know how tough of a job it is.

Now, you said you became a probation officer, what you do now. Did you have to get your record expung to do that? No. I actually got my pardon after. Wow. Yeah. I don't think I've ever heard of a felon, because you were technically a felon, right? Yeah.

Becoming a probation officer. Yeah. Did non-felon probation officers give you a hard time or look at you a certain way? That's the other thing. Nobody even knew. I've recent when when Lewis asked me to be on his podcast I was really struggling with that because I always tried to keep my my past personal part of that was because yeah I didn't want to be I didn't want that conflict of interest and two I didn't want it to be about me I always wanted to focus to be on them and their path because a lot of times if I ever talked to an inmate about it it came across as hey look you can be like me and that's not what I wanted to do so I never really told that story When I went on Lewis's show, that podcast started getting circulated a little bit. And people, like, I worked at this department now, or the probation department, I worked

at for six years. And a lot of my coworkers didn't know anything about it, and all of a sudden they know. It's kind of weird, but it's not a good time to really bring that up. Like, you're going to the cafeteria for a bagel. I can be like, oh, yeah, did I ever tell you I've been to prison? You know, when's a good time to mention something like that? You'd even mention on yours, you know, like, you're dating. Like, when do you throw that in, you know?

You're watching a movie at home and like there's a prison on it. Man, that would suck to be in prison. Yeah, I know. I did it one time. You know, you can't nonchalantly mention that. Now everyone just knows. Now I'm the guy that went to prison, which it helps break the ice a little bit more. I guess when you have a platform, it changes things.

Everyone kind of knows. People that like talk to me and stuff, they learn stuff about me from this show, which, you know, this is a type of show where it's not really about me. So, you know, bits and pieces they kind of learn, which is interesting, compared to, like, other podcasts where it's mostly, like, host-focused. Gotcha. So that's interesting. So when people started to find out, do you think it builds trust faster with those that are under or on your list?

Because, like, if I was coming out of prison and I had a probation officer that was in my shoes, I think I'm going to trust you more and build a relationship because you're you're going to hear me out because you've been where I was. Right. I think so. And I think that's a journey that I can't really discuss yet because I'm just now entering it. But, I mean, you know, I'm sure that somebody on my caseload may see this, right? So now they're going to know.

So that's something I'm going to have to figure out as I go. But I hope it does have a positive effect. I feel like they're all going to be hop and shipped to come out of years. Right, maybe. Now, what about ramifications from doing, you know, a podcast? when you're working for it because you're working for the state or the city? Yeah, I work for the county. Okay.

So my manager is awesome, man. He's all for it. In fact, before I came and did this, before I went to Lewis's too, I even mentioned it. He said, you know, just don't mention the specifics of where you work. And I don't, he was adamant that I don't represent that county, right? I'm just one small piece of it. But yeah, they're all for it. Because it's, from what I've seen, it's very confront.

Some people are so, like the higher-ups are so anti, you know, against going on to platforms and doing these things. But then also what I've realized is that counties have a lot more laid-backness and pull. Like I just interviewed two county jailers when I was in Kentucky, walk right in, bring all the gear. They didn't even search us. And now I got to interview an inmate. You're not doing that on the federal level or even on like the state corrections level to that degree. Right. It's fascinating to see it, but we need more people like who you're talking about right now to help create change.

And, you know, because there's probation officers and people in law enforcement that listen to this. Right. And they're going to learn something from that. Right. And I would think that, you know, like with me, I want to make as much impact as I can to influence people in a positive way. And I would think that you would want that kind of person working for you in that field. You know what I mean? So if you encourage it, then why not?

So what's a typical day like now as a probation officer? Oh, yeah. So I have a caseload of about 65 people. And I schedule office visits. And they have what they call a risk score based on a lot of factors like criminal history, education level, education, employment history, all these things, all these factors that they consider and they score it. Where you score on that assessment depends on how often you visit per month, how often you give urine screens,

and that kind of dictates your initial probation. And then it's kind of merit-based. There are some incentives there. You know, you can work your way to a lower level, you know what I mean, based on good behavior. So you may start out reporting twice a month, and you do that really well for a year. then you can get terminated early.

You can skip a visit here and there. You can do a video visit sometimes. You can go up to the low-risk area where they only have to report once every three months. Hey, honey, are you awake? I am now. Much wrong. My back is killing me.

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of the bed. He gets the firm support he needs. She gets the comfort she wants. Manufactured in Japan, AirWeave is truly supportive sleep. Discover more at airweave.com. So it's almost like they dictate how the probation goes now. And is this like a nine to five type job? So you go in and then you leave at a certain time? You got it. And what is it? I feel like probation officers are kind of always on call. Is that the case in your role? No. So, I do my office visits, which are scheduled. You know, if you were on probation with me, I'd give you my card, and it would have the next date and time on there.

And you would come in and we do cognitive behavioral programming during the visits, which is basically like the stuff I learned in prison. It's, you know, let's talk about what you did. You know, let's say you came in and you said you relapsed. Okay, well, what happened? Why relapse? Well, you didn't just relapse. You thought about it.

You had some emotions involved. We break all that down. We analyze it. We start like a, a pill. the layers off of an onion. You know, we look at what influence that behavior and how can we change that in the future. So we basically do that during office visits. We'll be sitting about this distance and we're doing homework assignments. We'll start on it during the office visit. I'll give them a part two to do while they're at home before the next visit. They bring that back in and we discuss it

almost like a somewhat like a counseling session. What do you think is the most common influence to that behavior you've come across. That's a good question. So I've seen all types of different reasons for it. But I think ultimately it comes down to not a problem they have, but something they lack. One of the first things I do when I meet with a probationer, especially my first one, as I talk about their goals.

You know, what do you see yourself doing? And then they usually say something real practical. You know, what's your long-term goal, three to five years from now? Own a house. Okay. That's good, but, you know, think bigger. And then I end up probing them until I get to this point. Hey, man, forget about all this.

Say you weren't on probation. Say you don't have a felony conviction. Say none of this matters. What would you do if you could do anything you wanted to do? Oftentimes, it's something, they say something that they could easily do with a felony conviction. They just don't realize it or they don't believe in themselves. So from that very first appointment, I'm trying to get them to believe in themselves. That's what I really want to do.

because they're lacking a lot of things. When people choose the relapse, like we just talked about, when somebody chooses the relapse, it's often because of what they lack. And here's why. If I'm sitting there and I wake up today and I got nothing to do, I got no job, I got no podcast, I got nothing to look forward to, right? And drugs are available. Well, this is an option.

And if I don't have another option to counterbalance that, then I'm going to choose that option. If that's all I got. And if I take this drug, if I relapse and violate probation, what do I have to lose? If I have nothing to lose, I'm more likely to also choose that. So like I said, from that day one appointment, we're looking at goals. We're looking at what do they want to do with their life and what's the next step.

And most importantly, action that they're going to take. You know, you're going to, I want to find a job. Okay, where? We get as specific as possible, where are you going to apply? What day? What type of job? What kind of career do you want? We start delving into that kind of thing because once we get some things established,

Once people have a job, they have a house payment, they have a family. Now it's a tougher decision to relapse, right? Now that relapse is still an option. But man, if I relapse, shit, I'm going to disappoint my wife. I'm going to disappoint my kid. I'm going to miss my mortgage. I'm going to violate probation. I'll disappoint my, you know, you've got a lot more to lose now.

So it's always a decision. I could go out right here. You know, I could leave here today and relapse if I wanted to, right? But I have a lot more to lose now than I did 20 years ago. So it's a lot easier to make the right choice. now. Before you got your part and where there are aspects of your job, you couldn't perform because you were a felon? So we have several different units within probation. They have like specialty caseloads, right? One specialty caseload is called the field unit where they do house visits

where they go and they're armed, bulletproof vests and everything. You know, does Ian Bick live here? Come to your door? I take a look inside. Do you got any firearms? You got any drugs? You know, here's your next appointment. Make sure you pay your restitution. You know, that kind of thing. So that job I couldn't have done. Now I could do if I wanted to pursue it, but I really enjoy what I do now. Wow, that's so interesting. And I think on the federal level, it's the same probation officer that does everything. Does the house visits and handles the caseload. They have like their probation officer jackets. They're more. They do house calls. It's not as kind of laid back for the person involved. But then when I was on state probation and you're a first time offender, You just call in, aside from your first visit, it's almost like too relaxed.

Okay, right. You know, but I also think the caseload, there's got to be probably here. If you pulled up the data, it's probably one to, you know, one probation officer to four or five hundred people. Right. It's absurd. How do you ever create change on that level? Absolutely. So I think that's what we do as we break down.

The first thing they do is assess the probationer and decide how much supervision do they need. research shows that too much supervision can actually hinder progress too because, let's say you're working 60 hours a week, but I'm making you come in and report once a month, and I'm taken away from the one thing that's keeping you in line, right? So I'm making you miss work. Well, that work is what's keeping you doing the right thing. You're thriving in it, right? So too much supervision can hinder success. Not enough. Obviously can. But yeah, yeah, we try to break it down and say, okay, this guy only needs to be seen every three months. This guy needs to be seen twice a month, right? And then their behavior can actually influence that. How integral do you think your

past was and everything you experienced to help you perform at your job now? I think it's everything. I think it's everything because I can't not live. I can't, I can't unlearn what I've learned. You know what I mean? So it's involved in everything. Like it's in every aspect of my job. But like I said, I think the biggest thing is just the empathy that I have toward them. You know, I get a guy, and I love when I get somebody that's 18 or 19s, I feel like there's so much more they can do and they haven't. So somebody that's 19 with one felony is a lot different than someone, 65 with 10 felonies, right? There's a lot more potential there for that 18 or 19 year old.

I think that, like I said, I can't unlearn what. I've learned I have that empathy for them. When I see the 18 or 19 year old, it reminds me of myself. And I'm like, man, I was sitting in this same building when I was here. What could I have told a younger me to change the trajectory of my life at that time? And I try to use that. Do you think everyone is able to find redemption no matter what they may or may not have done? Yeah.

I think it's possible for everyone, but it's not if they don't want it. that's the only time I feel like people don't change is when they really ultimately don't want it. That's my opinion. Do you ever sit back and find it just pretty crazy that your past literally brought you to this, you know, right now? Because that's something I think about all the time. It is. I think it's amazing. I think it's, you know, it's just an example of God's grace, at least for my life, is that not only did it not.

not only did it not stop me from succeeding, like it kind of defined the path that I took. And it could have ruined my life, but it kind of defined it. And I think, you know, growing up, we're often, you know, kind of trained in our mind or taught in school, like you're supposed to kind of regret mistakes you've made or learn from them in a way. But when you look at how, like, a story like years unfold and you're giving you. the opportunity of would you take it back, I imagine that answer would be no, you wouldn't, because it brought you to hear. Right. So, you know, I feel like society, as you hear more of these stories, it will start to change

of, you know, we're not supposed to regret the past, we're supposed to embrace it, you know, learn from it and use that as a tool. I think more or less we're not taught in school at a young age to use the past as a tool and embrace those failures. We're expected to hide it. Right. You know, and still learn from it behind it. And I think now it's about being open about it.

Absolutely. And using that as the tool. Absolutely. I agree. And I think we learn more from our failures than we do our successes. Something you had asked me a minute ago was really good. And I wanted to touch on, oh, rehabilitation. You said, like, well, what would they look at?

So when you talk about rehabilitation, right, what is a successful probation, right? Let's say, you know, you do probation, you successfully completed, and then they look at your life five years from now. So what's successful? What would make that probation successful? To me, it's like, okay, no more felonies, right? What if you had a misdemeanor? Was that still successful? Was it less successful?

Was it more? You know what I mean? It depends on it's all subjective, and everyone's success is different. The same thing goes for rehabilitation. It all looks different for everybody, right? I look at that 65-year-old offender that's got 12 felonies. You know, he's got no trade, uneducated, and he's got a drug problem. What is he going to do?

Well, success for him could just be not to commit another felony five years from now, right? Success for you is like successful entrepreneur five years from now, but it's different for everybody. So do you think the system is too, like they have their own people? painted picture of what success should be and that leads people more to failure. Like I feel like probation is like, okay, you have to get a job. You have to do X, Y, and Z. Right. Maybe it's too strict because maybe success to someone else like you were just saying or could

be like a hobby or, you know, every person's financial situation is different. Or everyone's circumstance, maybe success to someone is leaving the country and traveling or doing something. Maybe it doesn't need to be so defined as you have to do X, Y, and Z by X, Y, and Z date. if you want to be successful on probation. Absolutely. I agree with that. And I think that at least my department, we are heading in that direction.

It's like success is on the individual. It's a principle they call responsivity. It's basically saying, hey, look, one size don't fit all. You know, you don't come out there and say, look, this is the way probation is going to be and start checking boxes. I think a probation officer can make their job a lot easier as far as like take out all all the gray, you know, take all the nuance, no gray area, no subjectivity, no ambiguity at all, just straight, cut and dry, here's your conditions, do this by September 5th, or you'll be, you know, you can make your job easier.

I wouldn't like working like that. I wouldn't want to do that. But the department I work for is all about the nuance, all about find the success for each person. Everybody's success is different. It's very progressive. Since you're actively in the profession now, are you seeing the stigma around felonies change among some of the former inmates that are coming out of the system and looking for jobs? Are you hearing negative feedback of how they're affected by felonies or is the world changing and is being more effective or understanding of second chances?

That's a great question. I'd have to say, it just depends. It really depends. I think that the stigma is always going to be there. And I look at it, try to be objective in this myself. If I got a stack of applications and everything's equal except this guy's got a felony, am I going to count it against the other guy that he doesn't? You know what I mean?

I don't think somebody should get hired because of a felony. But at the same time, I don't want to count it against them either, so I think it's tough. But I think it just depends on that employer. It depends on the probationer, how they present themselves. I do mock interviews, man. Some of these guys have trouble making eye contact. And I'm like, well, that's the, like, there's the problem. It's not your felony, man.

It's your presentation. Here, let's practice that. Make eye contact. Sit upright. You know, is this how you're dressing for the interview? These little things. Are there some chains that you've seen guys get hired out without problems? Because I always have a ton of people reaching out about where they can find work.

And I say, hey, Whole Foods hired me. I was a felon. When we get those jobs, what ends up happening is that they stop. stop taking felons because what it, we opened the floodgates. Hey, such and such hires felons. So we send them all. So then they're like, they get so many. And if they get 20 employees and, you know, 15 or bad, don't work out.

We're not going to do that anymore. Yeah. So that's kind of what happens. But yeah, in Ohio, there's a lot of people that will hire felons. So where do you think you go after this? Because your life has been a lot of, you know, like setting a goal after you got out that first time and accomplishing that and then moving to probation, going back to school. Where do you go from from here? Wherever God leads me.

The only credit that I take for my life and what I've done is being willing to open the door that he puts in front of me and not going back to the ones that are closed. And that's what I tell all the people I work with. I say, hey, they come in and they're discouraged after they've applied for a job or they did a job interview and thought they did really well and didn't get a call back. I'm like, hey, look, if you only focus on the door that's closed, you'll never see the ones that are open. And that's my mantra and that's what I'm doing. And whatever door that he leads me through, that's the one I'm going through. Did your relationship rebuild with your family and your parents because of the jobs that you ended up taking and how you rebuilt your life? Or did it get rebuilt before that?

That's good. I think we've all gradually just kind of grown back to, it's just more like an EKG valve. Or I'm sorry, more like an EKG line than a straight line. It hasn't been linear. You know what I mean? It's been a lot of ups and downs, but, you know, they see the effort that I put in. And my sister, it's, I'm, my sister and I are really tight. We're like, it's almost like me and hers in a counseling session when we talk.

And she lifts me up just as much as I do her. It's almost like iron sharpens iron. How important do you think it is to have that sibling support with someone that's getting out of prison? And I'm sure you see it in your caseload, too, because. there's a lot of people where their families, I've interviewed multiple people where their families cut them off. The parents are more understanding, but the siblings are just, they're brutal. And if the siblings married, they can be even worse and they keep them away from their kids, you know, their nephews and nieces. I think it's vital. I really do. I think a good support system,

whether it's somebody might do an AA meeting, church, some people that they work with, any support. But I think it's vital. I think if you don't have that. You're almost, like failure is almost inevitable if you don't have a good support system. Yeah, I agree. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show today. This is a wonderful conversation, totally different perspective. They're unique. And I'm sure you'll get a lot more interview requests after this. Awesome. Look forward to it. And, you know, hopefully this creates some change in the system. Other people that are listening and can apply what you're doing to their caseload and workload and their system and structure. Awesome, man.

Hey, thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. Yeah, and safe travels back to Ohio and send us some more guests that come up in your network. We'll do.