Locked In with Ian Bick - How I Gained Respect In Prison | Robert Chiossi

Episode Date: April 18, 2024

Explore Robert Chiossi's gripping journey from addiction to redemption. Uncover the daring ways he committed a series of robberies, his survival in prison, and his ultimate path to rebuilding a new life. Thanks, Cheech & Chong, for sponsoring this episode! Go to https://heycruisechews.com/locked-in/?affid=1&s1=lockedin&s2=&s3=&s4=&s5=&click_id=dd20ac37393c4f32b174ee78a7a3ce25&utm_source=Podcast for 30% off. Hosted, Executive Produced & Edited By Ian Bick: https://www.instagram.com/ian_bick/?hl=en https://ianbick.com/ Connect with Robert Chiossi (Daemon Manx): https://www.daemonmanx.com/ https://www.instagram.com/daemonmanx/ https://www.facebook.com/DaemonManx1 https://www.tiktok.com/@daemonmanx Creative direction, design, assets, support by FWRD: https://www.fwrd.co Buy Merch: https://lockedinbrand.com Use code lockedin at checkout to get 20% off your order Timestamps: 00:00:00 - Intro 00:04:26 - Book Promotion and upcoming events 00:08:35 - Working 00:13:05 - From Success to rock bottom 00:22:18 - A Stupid Criminal's Mistake 00:26:55 - The Consequences of Being Caught 00:31:28 - Rock Bottom and Transformation 00:35:59 - From Incarceration to Rehabilitation 00:40:18 - Life After Prison 00:44:55 - The Intense Interrogation Experience 00:49:14 - Life in Prison 00:53:34 - Regret and Closure 00:58:23 - The Influence of Marco in Prison 01:02:48 - Life in Prison 01:07:11 - From Prison to Bestselling Author Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

There was a drive-thru convenience store. It gets better. So I go there and I take a nose hair trimmer, and it's a black nose hair trimmer, and I paint the center of it, even blacker so it looks like a gun, and I put it in my sleeve, and I have a bandana around my neck right here, and I pull up to the drive-thru,

and the person opens up the sliding glass window, and I pull the bandana up, and I go, you know what it is. What's up guys and welcome back to the Lockton with the InBIC podcast. I have an exciting episode for you today. I have Robert Chiosi here to share his entertaining story of how he committed not one, not two, but three robberies at the same location with a nose trimmer. That's right. You heard correctly.

He robbed the same place three times with a nose trimmer. In this episode, we find out how those robberies went to. down how he ultimately got caught and how he got sentenced to a lengthy prison sentence. And then we also got to hear how he turned it all around and became a successful author. I need to give a big thanks to our new sponsor, Cheech and Chong's Cruise Chooze for supporting locked in. I got to try Cheech and Chong's Cruise Chooze for the first time the other day, and I absolutely love them and I highly recommend you guys give them a try too. Head to trycruisechews.com slash locked in and get an extra 30% off.

They're already low prices. That's try C-R-U-I-S-E-C-H-E-W-S dot com slash locked in. There will be a direct link in the description of this episode that'll help get you there faster. Thanks again to Cheech and Chong for sponsoring today's episode. Now let's get into today's episode with Robert Chiosi. You know there's a lot of New Jersey people that come on the show. I had a guy yesterday from New Jersey. He was in an Ecuadorian prison for seven years for smuggling.

He got caught. That sucks. Isn't that crazy? Yeah, well, we definitely pride ourselves on how many criminals we have in New Jersey. You know, that's something we're definitely acclaimed to fame. Where in New Jersey are you? So I'm in the suburbs, you know, not too far. I'm near a town called Wayne.

Pompton Plains is the name of the town that I grew up in. And that's essentially where I did my crime. I moved to Florida for a long time, and I fell into the whole opioid epidemic down in Florida, because that was like pill mill capital of the world. But when I got sentenced to prison, I ended up in a place called Northern State Prison, which is in Newark, New Jersey, total gang prison. I thought they were sending me to the Thunderdome. I'm like, what?

I'm like, are you sure you want to send me there? Because I'm, I was about as green as they come. Yeah, I'm actually familiar with the Wayne area because I used to work for Whole Foods, and they opened a lot of stores in New Jersey, so I would help out. The recent one was in Wayne. That was a couple of years ago, I think Wayne,

but there was another one that I was out there for. Yeah, I'm right there. I'm right in the Wayne area. I'm one town over from Wayne. Awesome. Are you familiar with Larry Lawton at all? Larry Lawton was my freaking sell-me. Wait, Larry Lawton was?

Black Larry Lawton? No, no, white guy. He's the jewel thief. The Jewel thief. Yeah, you look like a younger Larry Lawton. He was like this notorious. I don't know him, but I had a selling name Larry Lawton. A small world.

Yeah, you got to check him out. He's got a huge YouTube. He does interviews. He was on our show. He's got, yeah, like 1.5 million subscribers on YouTube. Definitely check that out. Oh, I got to check that out. I won't forget the name.

Yeah. And you're an author, too. You gifted us these amazing books if you want to tell the audience where they can purchase books like this. Yeah, so I write under a different name. I write under the pen name Damon Manx. And you can find some of my books at Barnes & Noble. Yeah, we've got stickers and everything bookmarks. I also have my own publishing company.

So if you wanted to check me out, you could go to Damon Manx that's spelled D-A-E-M-O-N-E-E-M-E. M-A-N-X at Amazon. You can look me up there. All my books are there. A lot of them are on Kindle Unlimited, where you could get e-books for free. I also sell signed copies through my publishing company, which is Last Waltz Publishing.

So you go to www. LastWaltz Publishing.com. I have a big series coming out this year, so I'm doing like a five-state book tour coming up. Oh, wow. Not probably a lot of podcasts. I've been doing quite a few podcasts. And I'm sure there's more to come.

Yeah, I'm hoping so. I think after people see this, you'll get a lot of reach out. Usually that's how things work. People see an episode. And then, you know, because I like breach the surface of someone's episode because I like to go beginning, middle, end. And then other podcasts, find that episode and they want to expand on that. Because there's only so much you could talk about within the hour, hour and a half, you know. Some people like to go for three or four hours.

I can't personally do that. That would be a lot. That would be a lot. And it would be so hard to tell everyone's story in that capacity, you know, three times a week. And I don't think we would experience a growth that we've had if we just did one episode a week. And there's so many people that want to share their story. Yeah, I've noticed that. As soon as I found out about you, and I found out about you through a literary agent who I work with, a guy who works out in New York and has a lot of larger names much bigger than myself.

And he's like, you got to check out locked in with Ian. Big because he's all about, you know, the story of those returning from prison because it's not just, you know, it's not just the hardened criminal. It's not just the gangbanger. I mean, it's your brother. It's your husband. You know, one in 10 people end up in the prison system in some way in the United States. And I think it's a great thing. What you're doing is allowing allowing us to tell our stories because there is life after prison. Yeah, absolutely. And it's not the same celebrity story that everyone hears about. So it makes it interesting.

Yeah, I think it's a great thing you're doing, man. I'm so happy that you allowed me to be on the show. Of course, that's what we're all about. So you grew up in New Jersey, that Wayne area you were talking about. What was that like? Did you have big family, both parents, siblings? I have one sister. You know, I grew up in a house with just, you know, the mom and the dad, the family unit.

And there was no, you know, it was a normal, family, suburbs, relatively, not pretty close to Patterson, so we were close to, you know, the element where we could get in trouble if we wanted to. And I was certainly always looking to get in trouble. But the family dynamic was, you know, very, very old school, you know, go to church on Sunday, celebrate the holidays together with the large family, with the aunts and the uncles and the cousins. And it wasn't until, you know, much later that I've found a different way that I wanted to pursue, you know.

I was definitely into everything, you know, people were ever like, oh, don't be hanging out with Robert. He's into everything. I was that kid who was like pretty much wanted to always try, always push the envelope, you know. Did you guys come from money? Were you guys well off, middle class? You know, I always thought that we had money, but no, we weren't. We had like, whatever, a buy-level house, you know. I guess it's all comparative, but we were middle class.

So, you know, we went on one vacation a year, and that was usually to the Jersey Shore, where we would spend a week down there. But my father worked every day, and my mother, you know, she had her part-time job. So at the time, you know, I guess comparatively, we were no better or no worse than anybody else that we were growing up in. But, I mean, if you were to look at Pompton Plains, New Jersey, you might now people would say, oh, yeah, you had money. But, well, we lived in a flood zone. You know, we got flooded once every five years. So it wasn't like we were rolling in it.

It wasn't like I could ask for something and I would get that. I had to, I had my first job when I was 14 years old. Where was that? So my first job, there was a lake called Cresmere Lake that was right across the highway. And people would come from out of town and go to the lake for the day. And for $2 an hour, I would go there in the morning and skim the moss off the pond. And then at the end of the day, I would pick up the cigarette butts and the garbage and loaded into the dumpsters. and clean up the mess.

That $2 an hour, though, could actually buy you some stuff, right? Like, my dad tells me stories about how you could go to the movies back in the day. You know, 50 cents you're getting a ticket, popcorn, and a soda or something like that. Yeah. I imagine it could have, but, like, I was just spending it on, like, a bag of weed, you know. I was not. I was never smart with money. Yeah.

I'm still not today, you know. Hey, oh, well, everyone's got their own personal preferences. I, yeah. Now, high school, did you end up graduating? I did by the skin of my teeth. So I was, again, I was that guy who was, I would much rather go out and party during the day. I cut so many classes during my sophomore year that they kicked me out sophomore year. Like, I had literally missed like a hundred days by time before graduation.

And they're like, no, no, we're not going to do it. and I was, yeah, I was with four other kids, and we were across the street in like the church parking lot, and we were smoking something we shouldn't have been smoking. And the principal and the vice principal walked up on us, caught us out of nowhere, and on the spot kicked those other three people out and told me, I got kicked out as well.

I was the only one who was allowed to come back the following year. And they were like, look, I remember sitting down with the vice principal. And he's like, you know what? You're just walking to the beat of your own drum. He's like, this is not going to end well for you. Just trust me on this. And I knew everything, you know. You're 15 years old.

You know. Yeah, I know. Every kid's like that. Yeah. And, you know, I'm going to make it. I'm going to do what I get. So he let me come back in. And he arranged it so that I could do all my schoolwork in like three hours and then leave and go work, which is all I wanted to do.

So I was working at a cabinet shop at that point, trying to learn the trade. And so I would go to high school for like those last two years, take gym, my English, my math, and do it all in like a three-hour pop, and then leave at lunchtime and go to work at the cabinet shop. for the rest of the day. And that was enough. That was enough time to keep me in there to allow me to graduate. And that's how I ended up graduate. At Hyundai of Glendale, Lisa New, 2026 Hyundai-Tuson-S-C front-wheel drive for 269 a month, plus tax for 36 months, with owner's assurance in America's best warranty.

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Did you have a close relationship with your parents during those years? With my mom more so. My father was, by that point, he was kind of distancing himself from, you know, they ended up getting divorced. So I don't know if I contributed to that having a little bit of a problem child at the time. but they were separating. So I wasn't really close with my father at the time. I was closer with my mother.

When you look back on it now, do you think the divorce affected you? So maybe do certain things or go down the route that you chose? You know, I would think when I look back at it now, I feel more guilty that I affected the divorce. And that could be, you know, just our own guilty feelings, you know, looking back on things. We always think it's our fault. but I'm sure everything played into each other. Because as far as my memory goes, I don't see them having problems prior to me having problems. I always see my problems being the catalyst.

I mean, and that divorce could have been predetermined years even before you were born. Well, I think it was. I don't think they really were all that meant to be together. So do you go off to college? You know, I didn't do college until I got into prison. So prison was your college? Prison was my college. Exactly like me.

Yeah. In a lot of ways more than that. Like I learned a lot by going to prison. So how do you, what is like a defining moment where you go from high school or, you know, just maybe a little bit of trouble, like every kid? And then all of a sudden you end up in prison basically at a young age. Yeah. So, you know, like I did well. Like I bought a house.

I had the wife. I had the life. You know, I had a business. I was a she rocker. I had these, I had guys working for me. So I was doing well. And then we moved to Florida. And there was a problem because once I moved to Florida, life was very different.

My wife was working. I was having a hard time finding something that I felt comfortable in. And I was doing some handyman work down to Florida. and I ended up hurting my shoulder at one point. And the doctor, I allowed the doctor or manipulated the doctor into prescribing Vicodin at the time, which I was just like, this was like the missing ingredient in my life. And it just like, the miracle drug made me feel just took away all the pain and kind of like, flip this switch inside of me.

I was playing guitar with a friend, and one day he said, hey, you ever tried OxyContin? I'm like, no, but, you know, what do you got? You know? And he handed me this pill that you had to scrape and snort, and it was off to the races, which, you know, everybody knows that. And Oxy was synthetic heroin,

and that was it. Like, that just started the, my addiction just went, boom it was like the missing link in my addiction and and I chased it to the gates of insanity I chased it to the point where my wife uh you know couldn't recognize who I was couldn't recognize myself ended up in a divorce you know I ended up losing my business we had to sell the house I had to move back to New Jersey with my tail between my legs but you know carried my addiction with me and from there it just got worse, you know. But in New Jersey, there was no oxy cotton anymore.

There was heroin, which was even easier to get and a whole lot more potent. Why do you move to Florida to begin with? You know, we were living in Saddlebrook, New Jersey. We had a house and it was at the housing boom. So we made a lot of money on the house. And my wife was working in New York. 9-11 and some of the people that she actually worked with were had to go down to work at another site that day that site was in the twin towers so some of the people who got sent from her

building to go work in the twin towers did not come back after that um that affected her a lot and being that close to it we are like well maybe we should get out of this area and And so we decided to sell the house because it was a good time to sell the house, went down, moved to Florida, built a house of something, a dream home, you know, and we were going to start this whole new life. And while it didn't work out quite as planned, you know. Do you think if you'd never injured yourself, you'd still be living in Florida now and have the dream house with the wife and everything?

I don't think so because I like you said maybe that marriage was preordained not to make it I think that was kind of the way that marriage was too I think my problem with addiction was going to come out regardless of geographic location I think it's always been in me and it's something that I had never addressed because you know prior to that it was it was dabbling it was the drinking was, you know, it was smoking weed or it was doing coke or whatever. It was always something. And I think had it never reached its head, reached critical mass, I never would have addressed it.

Even without the injury? Because don't you think the injury put a little bit of a gas on that fire that was, like, building within you? Yeah. Yeah, I think so. I think it did put the gas on the fire. But I think maybe it just sped up the explosion. Yeah, it's so, like, I'm fascinated with how one cause affects everything else.

Like, just one little thing, because I look at my store, and there was one individual defining moment that said everything. And it's so common in all the stories we hear that it's, you know, it's one thing. And then people argue, well, it's not one thing. It's a buildup and this and that. But it's one thing that triggers everything that falls afterwards. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, there's always a match that lights the keg of dynamite.

right? Yeah. I guess it's like how do we prevent those matches from going off? Yeah. And I think without knowledge, you know, without the knowledge of what it's like to be caught in that explosion, you really don't know how to prevent it from happening. Yeah. I guess it's just looking at the warning signs.

So that way you could kind of dampen out, you know, put a stop to that gas leak before it explodes. Well, maybe if you can listen to people like you and me who have been through it. But you know what? I've heard stories from guys like my... myself who were like, you know, this is what's going to happen? And I'm like, what do you know? You never think it happens to you.

It'll never happen to me. Addiction won't happen to me. I'm not the kind of guy who goes to prison. Like everybody who I talk to, they're like, there's no way. You were in prison? Like, I did eight years in Northern State. Yeah, I did prison. Yeah.

Wow. And that's what I tell people. I say, you know, it's not just your game. gangbanger. It's not yes, you're heavy hitters. It's it could be your brother. It could be your husband. Could be your kids. Yeah, you're so funny when you came in today. You're like, I just want you to know I'm no gangbanger. Yeah, I am not.

Like, I'm the dumbest criminal in the world. Let's just get that straight. I'm the dumbest criminal in the world. Would you like to hear more? Yeah, so you get back to New Jersey. You're on to heroin now. Yeah. How old are you? 45. And what year is this?

So let's say 2010 to, I get back in 2010. Oh, so you had like a seven, eight year run in Florida. Yeah, I had a good run with the deoxys. Okay, so you're back in here. Now you're divorced. You're on your own. You lost pretty much everything and you're returning. Yeah.

I'm at desperate times here. So I'm returning and my addiction is still with me. You know, I tried a couple months of not doing anything, and that didn't work. And I worked a couple jobs trying to make enough money to feed the addiction, because now I know where to get heroin in New Jersey. And that doesn't last longer either. So I'm borrowing money from everybody, and I'm finding ways to manipulate money out of people. And I'm doing everything I can just to feed the addiction. And that's growing at an exponential rate.

And it's one of the hardest things to do to feed an addiction as it's growing out of control. And somehow I talk myself into the only logical way to feed this addiction is now to rob something, to rob a convenience store. and at the time that I'm telling myself this, this is making perfect sense. Like I know it's wrong. Like I know there can be extreme consequences, but I'm still able to convince myself that this is the next logical step. So what I do is I take a, like I'm so, I'm embarrassed to say it,

but, you know, it's like this is the insanity of addiction. There was a drive-through convenience store. it gets better so I go there and I take a nose hair trimmer and it's a black nose hair trimmer and I paint the center of it even blacker so it looks like a gun and I

put it in my sleeve and I have a bandana around my neck right here and I pull up to the drive through and the person opens up the sliding glass window and I pull the bandana up and I go

you know what it is. And they're in shock. And they just start opening up the cash drawer and putting all the money in a bag and hand it to me. And I'm like, I peel off. I go, have a nice day. And I run and like the adrenaline is pumping. And I get away with it.

And this is insanity. So of course, like I go right to Patterson to pick up a bunch of dope and spend the money. Now, this is where it gets, I'm the stupidest criminal in the world. Not only did I do that once, I then went back and robbed the same place three times in a row. Wait, what? Yeah, yeah. You robbed the same place?

Same way. Same exact MO every time. How spread out were these? Maybe two to three weeks apart. And how much money did you get? This is it. Dude, I've never heard anything like this. You know, of course not.

And to go to prison for being just like, you deserve to be in prison for being that stupid. Was it the same woman by chance? No, it was different every time. Imagine if it was the same woman, you would have such an, oh, man. Yeah, so you may not even air this episode. Oh, we have to, man. This story is incredible. The same drive-through.

So the same drive-through. Same car? A different car. Okay. So you weren't that dumb. Well, thank you for saying so. Different color bandana? Yeah, different color bandana.

Different, different hat, you know. Okay, so you had a disguise. A little bit. Could have just been a coincidence. Sorry to interrupt today's show, guys, but I need to talk about our sponsor for this episode. And this is an interesting one, and just in time for 420. Today's episode, we're sponsored by Cheech and Chong. Yeah, that Cheech and Chong.

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head to trycruisechews.com slash locked in and get an extra 30% off. They're already low prices. that's try C-R-U-I-S-E-C-H-E-W-S dot com slash locked-in. Now let's get back into my episode with Robert Chiosi. So, you know, I do that. And it's like spread two or three weeks apart, you know. And, well, you know, the first one was a big hit. I got $500. Oh, man.

Yeah. Yeah, the second one was a little less. I think I got about three. And then, you know, the second one that was much less than that. because they knew they were like watch out for this guy. So you got $1,000 total at most. Yeah, yeah. But, you know, like, if anybody's listening who's,

who doesn't think that addiction could do that to you, like I heard those stories like, oh, you'll rob your own mother, you'll take stuff out of your purse. And I'm like, get the hell out of here. That'll never happen. That shit just changed me. And that's not who I am. That's never who I was.

I was never that guy. And that just turned me into somebody else. Wow. Yeah. So because you used a nose trimmer that made it armed robbery, right? Yeah. So there's this, the NERA act is it's no early release. So that was the sentencing guideline.

If you have a gun or you pretend you have a gun, it's intent to do by. bodily harm. So it doesn't matter if the cops roll up, whether they think you got a gun or a nose hair or your hand in your pocket, it's intent. They would still have to draw their weapon and fire on you if they felt like you were going to draw first. Yeah, and that's in the federal system too, where even if you say you have a gun but don't, it's still that enhancement. Because I've learned, like, there was robbers in federal prison that, like, did huge bank Kise, that got less time than the armed ones because all they would do is go in, pass a note, and just say, hey, give me the money and the banks are required to give them the money because

that's the protocol or whatever. But they got significantly less time for that compared to the same person that walked in that got the same amount of money with a gun or a weapon or said they had a weapon. Yeah, I knew nothing about it. So how do you get caught then? So, you know, the first time that I had. worked for a company and I still had a key to their garage. So the first two times that I did that, I went into that garage and took one of the company trucks out and used the company truck to do the

robbery. I wasn't using my own vehicle. And, you know, they couldn't figure out who it was, you know, and finally, you know, they're trying to piece it together and they're like, they want to question me. because the owner of the company said, well, you know, it could have been this guy or it could have been this guy, so they're questioning all people who had worked for the company. And they get me in, finally, on one day,

and it's the day that Hurricane Sandy hit in 2012. And I'm dope sick at this point. And I'm like, I'm tired. Like, I'm tired of everything. I had, you know, tried to. unalive myself prior to this. And like I was ready for it to be over, you know, no matter what. Like I was done using, I couldn't go another day using heroin.

I couldn't go another day without it. And they get me in there. And I lasted about an hour of their questioning. And then I folded like a patio furniture. I just told them everything. Again, stupid. You never do that, you know. But I just told on myself, like, I gave them everything they wanted to know.

I gave them enough to put me away. Do you think that if you had an attorney present or even just didn't talk to them, they would have had enough still to figure it out who was you? So when I finally got a pool attorney, you know, the public defender, I got a pool attorney. He comes in. He goes, you know, I'm listening to the tape. He goes, you know, if you just kept your mouth shut another hour longer, they had nothing on you. I'm like, should I get an attorney?

Yeah. By then it was too late because I had given them enough information, you know. But had I kept my mouth shut, they wouldn't have been able to charge me. I wouldn't have gone to prison or I wouldn't have gone to county jail that day. And I'd probably be dead because I would have overdosed or done something. Yeah. other something stupid. Yeah, that was an integral part of your own healing journey and recovery by getting caught. It had to happen that way. You know what? I had to have a significant enough change a catalyst, a rock bottom, as they say. And even that, like even getting arrested and thrown in county jail, those first two weeks of being there wasn't.

enough rock bottom. I get thrown into county jail and I'm dope sick and you get better. So like the first thing they do is they're like, you know, the stupidity just continues here. So the first thing they'll ask you

is, you know, do you feel like hurting yourself or somebody else? I'm like, I wanted to hurt myself bad. So I'm like, hell yeah. Mistake. So I get thrown into solitaire wearing the burlap poncha. in this freezing cell while I'm dope sick, you know,

and that's for like a week just to make sure I won't hurt myself. And that's still not enough. So I get out of there and the male nurse comes in and I'm like, you know, hey man, I'm really sick. Can you give me something to help me through it? And he's like, nah, we like to bring you down like a spaceship, hard, hot, and fast. Like you, son of a bitch.

Yeah, I've heard from a lot of people that come on the show how awful that is being dope sick and just going through withdrawal in prison, especially in like a county jail where they're not equipped for it. They don't have the proper medicine for you. And it's just litter. And I've been in cells with guys that have been picked up from court or whatever. Their bond revoked or no bail. And it's just they're miserable. It's really bad. Yeah.

But, you know, a couple weeks, a week or two, you get over it. Honestly, but my sleeping didn't come back for about 40 days where I didn't really get a good night's sleep or much of any sleep for almost a month. But the real rock bottom, you know, where I'm like, this is enough. So I'm about two weeks into my county jail stint. And I get a job in the kitchen. And very quickly do I rise in the ranks and I'm working in the ODR. I'm working serving the officers and I'm working. cooking and I'm eating good food and I'm, I feel like I'm bawling. And I look around and I'm like,

you know what? I got all the ingredients to make hooch. So where do I do? I take five gallon bucket and I put it all the ingredients together and I hide that bucket inside the tray machine in the bottom where it's really hot. So it'll cook it. And I figure, you know, Christmas is coming. I'll just sneak it back up onto the tier, and we'll have a big party. I'll be the hero of the tier. I got caught like two days later cooking this huge batch of hooch, and I get thrown in the hole, and I'm in the hole on Christmas. And there's nothing in that hole but a couple pieces of paper, and one of them is about recovery,

and I'm like avoiding that piece of paper. And it's Christmas Eve, and I'm looking out the little tiny window, And the chaplain comes on, and he's got bags of, like, candy and deodorants and t-shirts that he's given out to all the guys, except for the guys on the tier. And I'm like, you know, at this point, my family will not talk to me because I can't be trusted, and I'm a, you know, I'm a scumbag. You know, I don't have any friends who are contacting me. I'm in there alone. They're throwing these football numbers at me, like 25 years for the three robberies. that I've done. And I'm looking at, and these guys are eating candy, and I have nothing in the cell,

man. And yeah, man, I cried like a little baby, man. I was, uh, you know what? This is like, this is my life. I'm like, this cannot. I can't end up like this. And I'm like, you know, right here it changes. And that was the moment where I said, you know what? You cannot be the same man who walks out of this place, the same man who went in. And I made a, you know, a, you know, clear and conscious decision to change everything about myself. At that point right there. At that point right there. So you didn't even need to do the eight years that was to come.

They could have given me too and it would have been more than enough. They could have gave you a pass and let you go. Yeah. But you know what? The eight was just like a reaffirming. I know, but you didn't need to do eight years. And everybody's like, man, they smacked you. Because a lot, you know, if it wasn't, I gave the, the prosecutor.

or a slam dunk first degree conviction. I gave it to all that aside though, do you think that the court and the prosecutor ever took a chance to understand who you were before the robbery? No. Like what led you to addiction? No. And they were doing things called drug court.

If you had like a second or a third degree offense, which almost could have, I could have almost gotten kicked down if I didn't give them the slam dunk. And the only time that they even considered it, so by time I go to sentencing, I've done 18 months in the county jail. Because you got no bail. No bail. Or it was like $150,000 and nobody has money to help me. And nobody's going to take a chance on me either.

But by this time now, I have 18 months clean and sober. I'm actually thinking clearly. I'm going to every possible meeting I can to help myself while in the county jail. And I'm even helping other guys who are in there, you know. And the judge's like, all right, you know, so I finally signed a 12 with an 85. And the prosecutor, the public defender, he's like, you know what, you're going to get your chance to talk. And when you get the chance to talk, if the judge likes what you have to say, you might get a little less. He said, I feel like you're not going to get much less, but you might get a little.

And the judge, Judge Gilson, he says, well, Mr. Keogese, do you have anything that you'd like to add? This is your chance to talk. And I get up and I, in my orange jumpsuit, and I'm like, yeah, I go, you know, I know I have to do time. You know, I can't take back what I did. I'm extremely sorry for what I did. I'm extremely sorry for the time that I'm taking away from my family because that's where the real punishment is. I've punished the ones I love and I've punished the community and I've punished, you know,

I've hurt the people who were at that convenience story, you know, emotionally and psychologically, you know, and I can never take that back. What I have been doing is making sure that I'm not going to be that same person when I walk out of here. And I know I have to do this time. But, you know, I've been working on recovery and I hope that one day my story helps maybe somebody else. And the judge looks at me. He goes, I can tell the bullshit when I hear it. He goes, I believe every word you say. He goes, you signed a 12. Unfortunately, you got to do some time. I'm going to sentence you to 10 within 85. You have to do eight and a half years. And he goes, if you can help one person while you're

down, maybe this will all have been worth it. And to me, that felt like a generous gift, you know. Wow. It's... I still think it's fucked. I do, too. I mean, it's a lot of time, and I think I would have... I mean, that's where the system fails. It did, you know. I would have got the message. I don't think I would have got the message with a 364, you know, or a year and a half. But I think three years would have really made its point.

Eight, was excessive. I really hope the people that are, you know, responsible for the changes listen to things like this. Or one day someone

that has some power will, you know, like, because people ask me, like, are you in reform? Are you in, what do you do? Like, are you in that space? And I look around and I realize like a lot of these advocates

or whatever, like they say a lot and they do the same things. And, you know, that's great. That's what they're passionate about. but are they really necessarily moving the needle of it to make the changes? And someone like me, I think my responsibility falls in not to go and preach to a senator or say whatever. It's just to get these stories out there so the world could see it. And then like those stories can go viral and they can get views so the people can vote the right people into office to make those changes.

Yeah, I would agree. I think all phases of it help. But I think, you know, what you're doing here helps a lot. more you know you got to show that these people the men and women who go to prison are are people too you know they're not just it's not just the hardened criminal out there who you know leads a life of crime from the day they're conceived to the day they die you know it's it's everyday people who who make mistakes and we all make mistakes some of them some of us make far grander

mistakes than others. But, you know, I think telling the story, showing the human side, and also talking about, you know, what we do after the fact. Because so when I got into the county jail, like I thought it was over. And there was a guy who'd been through the system a bunch, Wachiel. I remember this very clearly. He goes to me, he goes, you know, this is not the end. He goes, there is a life after this. He goes, you're going to do your time. and you're going to get out and you will have a life after this. And that resonated because there was a life after prison. And my life is so much better now.

But prison was a big part of my transformation. USAA knows dynamic duos can save the day, like superheroes and sidekicks or auto and home insurance. With USAA, you can bundle your auto and home and save up to 10%. Tap the banner to learn more and get a quote at usaa.com slash bundle. Restrictions apply. To turning it all around. So you got the eight and a half.

So you basically have to do like seven because you already did that time in the county? Yeah. Well, I did. Yeah. So I got eight and a half and you take 18 months off, take a year and a half off of that. So essentially I had to do seven. And while I was in there, so while I did the like six of it in the state prison and then it's time to go to the house. halfway house. And then COVID hit while I was in the halfway house.

I'm sure that's a whole other. Dude, we could go on for another hour about that. So you got the seven, but you're not allowed to stay at the county. They move you. So you're out of your comfort zone into this new facility. What was day one like for you? So, yeah. So day one, well, first of you get sent to like the craft or whatever, the central facilitation. And they determine where you're going to go. And they tell me I'm going to northern state prison in Newark, New Jersey. And I look at them, like, are you out of your mind?

You're sending me to the Thunderdome. Like, that place is, you go on the internet, you know, there's cages outside the cells. There's videos of when they took all the bloods and they put them all in these cages and all of a sudden you hear the handcuffs just unclicking because the bloods have their own keys to the handcuffs. And, you know, it's notorious for being a crazy-ass prison. So I say, well, fuck. There, you know, we're dead.

So they give me my work boots that have no insoles and my baggy clothes that don't fit and march me down to A unit. And I'm sent to the old head unit, you know, guys who got 30 to life who, you know, are in for bodies. So I'm like, well, now I'm scared shitless. And I get 106 opens and I go to go in 106. And there's this giant guy with gold teeth, no shirt on, just his shorts, sprawled out on the bottom bunk. And I go to step in and he goes, whoa, my man, before you come in this cell, what are you in here for? my heart jumps into my throat.

I'm like, armed robbery. He's like, that's a very respectable crime. Come on in, my friend. He just wanted to make sure I wasn't a cholo, you know. Do they call them chomo's in the state too? Yeah, chomo. And because you're a white guy, no matter what you're, you probably fit more of the part because you're older.

Yeah, you know, I guess there, that's the stereotype or, you know, you have that white dude look but I never really got harassed or anything I was taken in pretty pretty quickly Now was he curious about your

like getting once he found out that you were fine and let you into the cell was he curious about what you did and did you tell him the whole story? I told him the whole story and he loved it so his name was pork that's what I called him pork

Pork, yeah, he's a big guy. Really kind-hearted dude, but he was, you know, he was a high-ranking Latin king. And, you know, we bonded a little bit, but, like, right off, like, that first day he goes, you know, just to tell you something's going down with the Kings, there's a chance we might get yanked out of this cell, like in a day or two. So, you know, you know, I'd just play it cool. I'm like, what the fuck are you talking about? that next morning like at five in the morning the cell opens and two

giant guards come in barking face down on the fucking bed don't fucking move but your hands behind your back and they pull us out bring us down to the interrogation area they take pork one way

take me another way and they're like what do you know about the kings what did you bunkey tell you I don't know shit you just got there even if I did know shit I don't know shit you know I know enough. You don't, you never open your

fucking mouth. And I just sit there, I hugged the wall and they're like towering over me. They go, you know, we could, we could make your life easy here. We could get your good job. You know, we could, I'm like, I don't know nothing. You know, and then they put us, bring us back. You know, of course, there's a strip search or whatever

and take us out after a couple hours. And they let me, me and pork go back. And they trashed ourselves. I guess they were looking for some kind of paperwork or the kings were beefing with somebody so they were doing that to all the kings and it was our time to go down there and we get back and everybody's out

and we're sitting at the table and it was one of his higher ranking guys and a really older Italian dude who was a serious dude as well and we sit down at the table and they're like how did that go and port goes let me tell you something he goes my bunkey's the good dude he just hugged that wall and kept his mouth shut like a champ he goes he's all right if you guys need anything or if he needs anything

please help him out and from there like i i i didn't want for nothing it was i i was in you know that's incredible it was it was a you know and throughout that like i was just like if i said i was going to do something, I did something. I was polite. You know, we had a good bond, you know, and for me, these older heads, you know, they're just living. They just want to live their lives. And, you know, that's their existence. So, you know, you respect one another. And, you know, I fell in with some heavy hitters and they watched out for me. And they were also, like, enrolled in college. So I had a little bit of an education, though.

I was helping them with their math, helping them with writing essays. So it was just a, it was a different, it was a very different prison experience than most people have. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting how the dynamics are. You just do one thing for a complete random stranger. You earn their respect and that affects your whole prison stay. Because that could have went very differently. Like if you were trying to weasel your way out of it or anything,

you were toast for the rest of it. Yeah, that would have defined, that would have defined the rest of my bid. Now, that's a guy that was in prison for a very long time and still had a while to go. And he still has a while to go. He's still there now. Yeah, I stay in touch with a lot of my guys made friends with

and Porkston has a couple years left, but, you know, he was the 30 year that they give for a body. So what were some of his cell rules, like his prison cell rules? because we hear from a lot of guys that go into cells where you were just passing through. You were a guest kind of in his home for a guy that's been there for so many years. Yeah, you know, I mean, pork wasn't as militant on the, you know, he was a little more lax, which was probably pretty cool. But of course, you know, we'd hang the sheets when you're taking the number two or whatever.

Definitely clean, you know, you always got to keep the place clean. What was him? I really, he had a typewriter and he would always, he was doing the paralegal stuff. So like I couldn't talk when he was doing that because he would always make mistakes. So there was no talking. We had a very respectful relationship. So I've heard some like, you know, militant guys who are like, oh, you got to, when you go to the bathroom, you sit down to pee. Like, it was nothing like that. Pork was pretty relaxed.

And, you know, we were very much brothers. in that cell. So I, like I said, my, my stay in prison was very different than a lot of people. I see a, on the topic of being different, I see a lot of, like, comments of people that are interested of, like, what would happen if they go to jail? And you're someone that looks like, you know, you're a middle-aged guy, went to prison, could have been someone's father, whatever. Did you have to, like, join a gang?

Like, what's a misconception? because people just think, like you said, coming into this, you're not one of those people. So people automatically think that you have to be one of those people. So like I get questions. Did you have to join a gang, this and that? What was that like for you after that first cell experience? Did you have to join one? What are the dynamics?

Are you asked? You know, I wasn't even asked. You know, when I was in the county, there were a lot of guys, you know, who were aligned with things that I didn't really want any part of, you know, guys who claimed to be part of that Aryanation and state prison skinheads, which to me was not my thing at all. And, you know, of course, the Latin Kings and the Bloods were looking to recruit a 45-year-old white dude. But I had no problem being friends with him, and they were definitely, you know, no problem being my friend. So I didn't have anyone approaching me to be in a gang.

I didn't walk into prison, pick out the biggest guy and punch him in the face either. Because that's, that will ruin your bid right there. I guarantee that's the wrong thing to do, at least where I went. Do you think guys actually do that? I certainly hope not. Like, yeah, I'm sure you listen to the podcast, right? Yeah. You've heard people say that.

Yeah, that's, I don't buy it for a second. Not for a hot fucking minute. No way. Like that wouldn't have worked out. Yeah. Unless you like being in fucking ad seg, you know? Yeah, like I think like if I did that in the feds, you go up to some guy and you just hit him. Unless he started it with you, I think it's a different scenario.

But if you just walk up just to start shit, you're done and they're shipping your ass out of there. They don't want any problems. No. Wow. Yeah. So I don't buy that. I don't buy a lot of the stereotypical things that they say. about prison.

So what was your job for those years? Did you end up getting a good job? Yeah. Well, at first it was, I volunteered to help redo the roof of the ED building, which is during August. So there was like 10 of us. And it's a flat roof, membrane roof, with these heavy stones. So we're up there sweating and dying.

And they aren't even paying us. They're just giving us like these awesome salads and tuna to eat. And we're loving it, you know, because we're eating something different than the crap that they're serving and we're getting out of the cell. But that only lasted like a couple weeks. And then I became a teacher's aide. A teacher's. Yeah. What's the pay in prison?

In the state prison. I think I want to make it about 90 to 100 a month. Oh, that's really good. Really good. Yeah. I think about that. So you're able to live pretty good then as someone that didn't have. You didn't have outside help.

You didn't have outside help. Occasionally my mom, you know, after a couple years and my mom realized I was changing some things around. She'd send me in a couple bucks from time to time. Did she visit you? My mother never visited me. Did any family visit you, your sister? No.

Towards the end of my stay, my father came to visit me, but that was because my mother had passed away while I was in prison. Wow. Yeah. So, and he comes in and he's hard at hearing. He's not wearing his head. headphones and we're in the gym and it's everybody's screaming and he's like he's whispered I couldn't hear anything he was saying but it was nice that he came in but and then my father

and I actually developed a much better relationship afterwards do you wish that you had closure with your mom on the outside yeah I certainly do you know that's definitely a regret and and I really regret her the last time her seeing me in person that I was such a disappointment that was that's really something I've had to struggle with. How do you get past that? How do you overcome something like that? You never fully get past that. My sister,

my sister always lived with my mom. My sister was born with cerebral palsy, so she has some mobility issues. So I live with my sister now, and I help her out as much as can. And we help each other, you know. So I think, you know, like I said, you know, and like people told me,

only way you can prove yourself that you've changed is through living differently and being a different person and doing the right thing now that you're have the chance to so i always wanted to show my mom through a living amends that hey this is the guy i am now i'm doing this and by doing things for her and by helping around the house and doing doing things differently so i feel like you know if it's any tribute to my mom, it's by helping my sister and doing the right thing now. Yeah. I can't imagine how hard that could be like to have a parent pass while you're in prison and to be on that, you know, not having that closure with them, especially because they saw you the way you were before prison. Yeah, she was, so she died of cancer and she, you know, I got,

got the call one day to go down to the Sally Port and one of the sergeants was. sitting there. He's like, yeah, your mom is in the hospital. It's almost time. So they, she was, she was unconscious, but they put her on the phone and they, they let me talk. And I, I said what I had to say. And it was, it was really tough. But, you know, I tried to give her every bit of love and encouragement that I was going to do the right thing and that she didn't, need to stick around or worry about my sister or anything. And my aunt, who was actually in the room at the time, said there was a noticeable difference in her reaction, even though she was unconscious.

And a day or so later, she passed away. There was no option for you to go to the hospital. They didn't offer you that at all. There was, if you had the money, you could go have them take you for like an hour. I didn't have the money, though, you know. And it was like an hour that they would drive you. And I was very scared of the, I didn't want to have that one image of my mom, be my last one of her. I don't know if that's very selfish.

Sure it is, but I didn't get the chance to see her in person. Yeah. Well, I'm sorry to hear that, man. Oh, thanks. It's, it is what it is. you know, it's another nail in the, we don't want to follow that path. Absolutely.

Were there, because you were in New Jersey, were there a lot of mobsters in there at all? So, when I was sitting at that table, one of the older gentlemen, Italian guy named Marco, had been in there for 20-something years and was doing 30 to life. Marco was from Newark, New Jersey.

he may have had some ties to something that was a bit bigger than what I've ever been involved with and you know Marco was a Catholic guy as myself he kind of took me under his wing took me to a Catholic Mass got me involved in like Buddhist studies and meditation and would take me out

and play Pinochle with me. And he kind of took me under the wing and, you know, showed me how to navigate prison, you know, effectively. Because there's ways to do it and there's ways to not. In northern states, a place like you can jail. Like if you need bleach or you need tomatoes or you need onions, that can all happen if you know how to work it. So Marco kind of showed me.

He also showed me, you know, that life goes on. He was very wise, very influential, and he had a posse of other Italian guys. It helped that my name ends in a vowel that I was also Italian probably, but yeah, Marco was very influential and helped me out a lot in prison. They probably had a lot of pull in there, too. You know, and even with the guards they were respected. Like, you know, there was, I don't know, they're enamored by that lifestyle. I think a lot of people still are. But, yeah, Marco had a lot of pull.

He actually also was like the head of something called the mentor program, which was older guys, gangbangers, gangbangers, gangsters who would share their stories. and, you know, with the younger guys coming in, you know, hey, you know, where I'm going to be this Christmas? I'm not going to be with my family. I'm going to be here with you schmucks, you know? That's not cool. There's nothing cool about that. I know you think you're going to get out there again

and you're going to be slinging the dope. This is where you're going to be in 30 years if you keep it up. And they actually got, they got guys to drop their flags. Like, they change lives, this mentor program. And Marco, Marco's home now. Have you guys connected? We've connected. And we're in the process of maybe writing a story about our intersection,

our intersecting journey throughout the prison system. That's awesome. Is he older or younger? Yeah, he's in his mid to later 70s. What was one thing that you found interesting that he taught you on how to navigate prison life? you know, well, there was so much, but I'm just going to share one thing. So, you know, you go out to the yard. And I was very concerned, you know, you go out to the yard and you're doing the pull-ups

and you're doing the dips. They wouldn't give us weights because this is Northern State. People are getting hit over the head with the weights there if you had them. And so I'm out there and I'm doing whatever I can cardio at the time, you know. I know I don't look like it, but I did at the time. and Marco's like, you know, that's good for you, but let me show you something else.

Well, he started doing yoga. And I'm like, oh, well, that looks kind of cool. So me and Marco are now doing yoga in the middle of the yard where all these guys are doing like weights and they got their books tied around their waist to give them extra resistance on the pull-up bar.

And he starts teaching me yoga. and I know this sounds like the strangest thing to hear in state prison. But it was like we were on this island and nobody like said boo. Nobody said nothing. And I would like this was like the best thing I learned. Like it's helped me now even at my age. Like I can bend over and touch the floor, you know. Limber, he took me to a Buddhist retreat that they had where it was like three days of meditation.

that they allowed, you know, other people from the outside to come in. So he got me on like a spiritual path while I was there that just really turned me around. As far as navigating in prison, you know, he taught me who to talk to to get the fresh produce brought to myself. Who do I talk to to get, you know, if I needed hard-boiled eggs, you know, how to negotiate the price that I needed. Would they use for the currency to exchange to get that stuff? commissary, of course. A lot of times, it depends where you are. So if you're in the main area, it stamps.

A lot of times it stamps. But, of course, pouches go for good money, too. Tuna pouches. A lot of people use the mac, the mackerel. The mackerel. I think you're the first state guy that said that they've had the mackerel. Oh, really? Yeah.

That's a fed thing. Oh, yeah, Jack Mac, yeah. Yeah, Jackmatt's a spicy one, right? I think so, yeah. It's a flavored, yeah. Okay. So we had the mac. You know what?

And the whole time I was down there, I never ate, what did they call them the buns? Honey bunn's honey bun? Honey buns. I never ate one honey buns. Yeah, you're probably going to live many more years. A guy would eat one of those a day. Sometimes, too. That's literally your calorie count that you're supposed to intake.

Those things are, oh, man, they just slow you down. Yeah. Any type of those pastries and stuff, like I always feel like shit if I have one of those. Yeah. Crazy. I even tried to eat healthy when I was in prison. It's hard, man. It's hard.

Everything's just loaded in sodium, too, and what are you going to do? Pork was also a kitchen runner, too. So he'd come back with, like, bags of apples, bags of lettuce. And I'd make salad with homemade dressing. How do you guys make dressing? So it depends on the ingredients you get. You know, you get a couple ketchup pouches. You get a couple mayonnaise pouches, get some fresh garlic from the kitchen,

crush up the garlic, salt pepper, you know, throw in a little, what's the one's spot? that they always go. Adobo or sazone? Sausone, yeah. So popular. It's so popular. That is such a great spice to cook with though. I put on my rice now.

You mix it up. It just makes everything taste good. Put on steak, chicken. Yeah. Anything. It's just incredible. Of course, you know, we're using the stingers to cook down the onions. We had this one cop.

Like on Sunday, I would cook down the onions and then I'd chop up tomatoes and we'd make some pasta. And cop would be like, well, you're making fucking Sunday sauce and that? there, come on, man, put the shade on it. The cop, the sergeant's going to beat there. It would stink up the whole place, but, you know, like Northern State, you could jail

where you get sent some places, you know, you're not cooking in your cell, you're not getting bleach, you're not doing laundry in your cell, you know. Yeah. At least this was a place you could live. Absolutely. Yeah. So, what year did you get out? I got

out in 2020 out of the halfway. house and that's during the height of COVID now in Jersey. So I get to the halfway house and since like as I'm in in in prison I'm taking college classes and they're like oh if you get to the halfway house you can start going to college on the outside like leave for the day go to college so I get to the halfway house in January and I get to go to college and I go out and I start the the first semester. And in March, boom, COVID shuts it down. And that was it. Like, we're

277 guys living on top of each other in the halfway house. COVID's already in the building. And like, people were dropping like flies. Like, they shut down the college. Everybody's getting sick. They're taking guys back to prison. They're never coming back. By time I left the halfway house, It was less than a hundred of us left. But the governor gave us emergency credits and took six months off my sentence. Oh, wow. So you got to get out of there quicker. And then what did you do when you got home?

Did you have a job? So I finished my associate's degree. In prison? No, I finished it transferring when I got out. Okay. And I also published a couple books. Once you got out, you put... Yeah, well, when I...

I had this dream when I was in prison. Like, I always wanted to write a book. And I always wanted to be an author. But I never had that gumption to pursue it. And once I started taking the college classes, it reignited my love for literature. It reignited my love for writing. and I started reading everything I could.

I started writing. And I'm like, well, this isn't bad. And I started giving it to other guys on there. And they're like, this is pretty good. And I'm like, you know what? And they're in composition notebooks. I'm like, so I got this plan. When I get out, I'm going to transfer everything onto a computer.

I'm going to edit it to the best of my ability. And I'm going to try to get published in a couple of magazines. So I do that as soon as I get out. and within about two months I get accepted into a magazine. Oh, wow. And like a month later, I get another story in a magazine. And then I won a contest for best story. And I'm like, well, maybe I could do this.

So I submitted a very short novella, 50-page book to a publishing company, and they jumped on it. And they published it. And since right now I have like eight books. I've opened my own publishing company. And it's been a life-altering experience. I'm doing book tours. I'm doing conventions where I get to sell my books,

meet people who've actually read my books. And last year, I came out with a short story collection that a lot of the stories were written while I was in the prison system in the halfway house or in the cell. And it's based on life experiences. It's based on things that's happened to me, but also horror because I'm a horror writer. And it became a number one bestseller on Amazon. That's incredible, man.

It was very surreal, yeah. Well, congratulations to all your success on that. Oh, thank you. What's next for you? What's a five-year plan? The five-year-so, this year I have a four-book series, which I wrote a four-book series. series during the lockdown of COVID and that um it's a very big epic project and that's all coming out this summer so I'm doing this summer I'm doing a book tour for the four book series it's called

the Ojanox which is a creature feature set very much it's very much takes like the idea of the thing meets meet Stephen King's the stand it takes place in 1916 79. It's very old school creature feature horror. So I'm going to be doing a little book tour for that, trying to sew my wares and get more people to know about it. And I just signed a contract on another book that I got in advance for that I'm just finishing up right now with another author who lives in Australia. So that book's coming out. Five years, I don't really like to plan that far in advance. No, that's totally fair. I've got this year down and then I'm like, all right, let's see what happens after that. But yeah, you know, I can wrap my head around what's going to happen this year. And I've got all my books, my dates booked into December. Let's see what happens after that.

My future plans are, is to write my story about how somebody who comes from, middle America can fall victim to the opiates can throw it all away can end up in a place like northern state prison align with some heavy hitters and the gangs and and maybe the intersection of of their stories in my book and how we can all come out and use our own stories to help help other people that's something i'd really like to do i'd like my i'd like the story of what's happened to me be able to maybe just change one or two people's lives and maybe redirect them or at least give them hope that you know hey when you get through that here here's some of the things you could do that's awesome man well I'm very excited to hear that and I'm very

excited that you you know you've gone through all these horrible things but you were able to turn it all around and and there was a light and it brought you to where you're supposed to be and you have your purpose now I think you know it's so important to have purpose in life and you were able to find that. And yeah, thank you very much for sharing your story with us today. Thanks for having me. This is, I talked your ear off, but, yeah, this has been great. No, everyone, like some people are like, oh, you did most of talking, like referring to yourself

as the guest, and that's the way it should be, you know. It's a chance for you to tell your story. No one would listen to us if I just talked about me the whole time to tell stories, you know. Oh, you like your story too. Yeah, but I chime in, you know, and that and I just guide the person, you know. people an opportunity to share their story. And I think that's, I think that's important. That's my purpose. So we all have our purpose in life. And that's what I'm on. If anything, I've given the audience a view of what some of the dumbest criminals in the

world have done to get into the prison. And if we stand out for anything, we'll stand out for that.