Locked In with Ian Bick - How I SURVIVED 10 Years In PRISON With Teresa Giudice & Lauryn Hill | Dr. Clover Perez

Episode Date: June 29, 2023

Several years after creating and operating a successful business relating to immigration law, Dr Clover Perez is arrested on Federal Criminal Charges. Dragged through the Criminal Justice System, Dr Perez is sentenced to 10 years in a Federal Prison Camp. In this episode we hear Dr Perez's story of loss, navigating the criminal justice system, spending time in a women's federal prison with celebrities such as Teresa Giudice & Lauryn Hill and how she was able to make it through to the other side. Connect with Dr. Clover Perez:www.Cloveraperez.comwww.abeautifulheartministries.orgFacebook: Clover A. PerezInstagram:  Dr. Clover A. PerezTwitter: Dr. Clover A. PerezLinkedIn: Dr. Clover A. Perez Connect with Ian Bick: https://www.ianbick.com/Subscribe to our membership program on YouTube to get early access to interviews, see behind the scenes photos & more:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRvVklIft6DMelVW18M0oBw/joinPowered by Q29 Productions, LLC Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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We are back with another episode of Locked in with Ian Bick. Wow, guys, this episode I am so, so excited for I got to interview Dr. Clover Perez and hear her amazing story from how she got sentenced to 10 years in federal prison, her time and how she spent it in the Danbury Woman's Federal Prison Camp, and the two celebrities she encountered in her journey. In this story, we dive in to the craziness of the criminal justice system. and how she was able to turn her life around after a decade in federal prison. Sit back, relax, and enjoy locked in with Ian Bick.

And if you guys are listening to this on our audio streaming platforms, please leave us a review. And if you're watching this on YouTube, guys, remember, like, comments, subscribe, and share. It does us wonders and helps us keep the show going. Dr. Clover, welcome to the show today. You are our first doctor on the show. and I feel like there's even more pressure on me to do a good interview because, one, people have been commenting that sometimes I don't give the guest enough space to speak. And two, you're a doctor. So you might be schooling me and checking me on a couple things. But I've been excited for this interview. Lewis L. Reid introduced us, who was on the show a bunch of episodes back. And we haven't had a woman on the show in quite a few episodes now. I think it's been like eight or ten episodes. So it'll be interesting to get your perspective. I also think you're the first female that's been to federal prison that's been on our show. I could be wrong about that. But if not, I think I am right that you are the first female that went to federal

prison. So no pressure on you or anything. But it's going to be cool to get that perspective. How are you today? I'm great. And thank you so much for sharing your platform for elevating the voice of, you know, women and men that have been incarcerated. You know, this is a humbling situation, right? especially when we talking about something that we have done that caused us to go to prison. It's a sobering situation because it also brings light to the fact that there's so many people in this country that, you know, are incarcerated and was incarcerated. So this is a great platform. And thank you so much.

Absolutely. And it's just like a fascinating subject, too, because so many people are affected by people that go to prison or know someone that has, someone in prison and for them to see that like the inner workings of what it's like for individuals like ourselves because some people don't talk about it and family members and friends are curious what's that like so it's good to like shine that light yeah definitely you know because people are under the false presumption of who goes to prison or who and why you go to prison you know and because the media makes people that go to prison um like monsters, right? When you see people like you and you see people like me, then it gives a different

perspective of, you know, who goes to prison and also the different type of crimes, right? Because prior to me going to prison, I always thought that it was people that killed rapists, people for racketeering and things like that. I didn't even know that people went to prison for white collar crime, you know, I didn't even know that there was something that exists called white collar crime. So this was new to me. This was new to my family. And it was an eye opener, but also a good learning experience, you know? And you know what's interesting with like stores like yours and mine is we don't look the part of individuals that go to prison. I mean, I know like I have the tattoos and whatnot, but even so people look at my face and stuff, I get a lot of comments. They're like, oh,

from chest above, you look like a toddler in a way. And then from below, it kind of makes a little bit sense. But when if I was passing you on the street, you're the last person I'd ever expect to go to prison. And I think it's just fascinating to see how someone's story unfolds. So let's get into your story. Where are you from? What's your childhood like? Oh, so I live in Long Island. I was born in Jamaica West Indies. I came to this country when I was seven years old to live with my mom. My mom left Jamaica when I was two years old and I was raised by my maternal grandmother. And when my mom became legalized in the country, I came to join her at the age of seven. Now, how does that work? Does that, did you automatically become a citizen when you get here?

Did you have to apply? No. So she had to file for me and I got a green card. And once I got a green card, I came here. And I think it was probably five years after she became a citizen. and when she became a citizen, I automatically got my citizenship at the same time. Do you have siblings or it's just you and her? No, I'm only child. Only child. And it was just you and her living together in New York. No, she was married at that time, so it was me, her, and her husband.

And what about your real dad? Was he a part of your life at all? No, he wasn't. My dad is Indian, so he's from India, and we just never had a close relationship. I think it was more so a different culture and, you know, we struggled with our relationship because there were certain expectations from him

and expectation that I could not live up to and expectation on my part also that he could not live up to it. So we struggled and we just didn't have a good relationship. We could afford a relationship later on in life, but at that time I kind of outgrew him and I felt like I didn't need him anymore, so I just never pursued a relationship with him.

How do you think that affected your mindset as a child? I think it did and it still does because I struggle with, you know, relationship when it comes with men, I'm not trusting, right? I do struggle also with abandonment issues, right? I felt like my dad should afford for me more. And even though I may not have wanted a relationship, I think that he should have pushed forth to have a relationship with me. So I do struggle with that up to now.

Yeah, because I see I carried into my relationship, but that's something that I'm working on right now. Yeah, I mean, that's something that's reoccurring in the theme of our show that individuals' childhood trauma and childhood issues have carried out throughout their lives and affected the people that they are today. Absolutely. And it kind of, like, you know, it gives certain situations understanding,

like from the past of why certain things happened and why we are the way we are. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And, you know, my dad, he passed away, I think a year after I came home from prison. And he was anestelialologist, and I wanted to be anesthesiologist as well, just so I can prove to him that I was good enough. But, you know, God had a different path for me. and now that he passed away, I now have my doctorate degree, but it's just in a different feel. And I wish that he was alive.

So, and probably we would forge a relationship because now he would see me the way I wanted him to see me. Rather than someone that may be went to prison and he's not proud of in that sense. That must have been, I mean, we'll get into it later on, but that must have been a lot of pressure, you know, for you already having those father figure issues and then for him to know that his daughter was in prison, his only daughter, that's got to be a tough dynamic that like moves an even larger weight onto the situation. Because in, you know, in the Indian culture, that's looked up, looked down on. And also from the Caribbean culture also, that's looked up, look down on too. you don't they, I'm having a woman that go to prison. It's not something that, you know, the family wants to talk about.

That's something that's in the closet, very shameful, you know. So I had to learn to deal with that. And my family also had to learn to deal with shame as well. I bet. Are you guys growing up rich, poor, middle class? What's that dynamic like? So I would say middle class. And what's like a day in the life for you growing up between your mom and your stepdad?

Well, very spoiled. Always get my way. And I think that my mom did that just basically to make me feel like I was needed. I was love. I used to get everything that I wanted. And so, but, you know, I kind of took a different path in life. And I think it, the path that I took, it was not necessary to hurt someone, but it was more so having that. close relationship with my mom and just hearing her story about when she came to this country and not being legal and she had to hide. And every white person that she saw, she thought it was immigration and they were going to deport her and things like that. So, you know, hearing something like that and hearing that your mom, you know, went through that, you want to do something. And And that's why I went into the role that I did as far as doing immigration work, you know, and end up trying to be a savior, so to speak, to make sure that people that are undocumented became legal in the country, but I went too far.

Yeah. So, before we get there, middle school and high school, pretty average for you? Pretty average. Nothing like traumatic or anything? No. Were you ever, did any drugs or alcohol or anything? Never. Never.

No parties, nothing. I did parties, but, you know, like little house parties, I didn't do clubs, never smoke, not even cigarette, I never spoke at all. Getting done any trouble at all? No, wow. I live just a normal life. See, I think that's so interesting, like how someone could live like such a normal life and then somewhere along the lines, it like an implodes and something so out of character happens. Right. I mean, we see that in so many stories. And we're going to see that in your story today.

Yeah. But, you know, I even though someone live a life like I did, I think somehow when you have to, what you're dealing with trauma, it somehow comes up in your life and it may take on a different form and you feel like you have to overcompensate and become a people pleaser and do different things. And I think that's what I did.

And that led me to my incarceration. Too bad you didn't have that mindset back then, though. You weren't thinking that at all. It took years of learning and going through it to understand that. Right, right. That's so interesting. Did you know what you wanted to do career-wise in high school? Did you have it figured out?

Yeah. So I wanted to be an anesthesiologist, just like my dad, went to your college in my first year. I realized that blood and I did not get along. But it was too late to change my degree, so I ended up getting a degree in biology. and, you know, started working at a law firm and had my kids. And that was it. How old were you when you had kids? I think my first child was, I'm 21 years old.

And now this is a guy that you had been seeing for a while now, or is this an accident? No, it was someone that I was seen from high school. From high school, so a long-term boyfriend. Were you ready to have kids when you did have the kid? I wanted, yes, I wanted my son. I shouldn't say I wanted my son. I wanted a girl. But I was blessed with his son.

And, you know, Andre and I, that's my son's name, we kind of grew up together when, you know, was going to college and he would go to school with me. I would take him with me. It was extremely, extremely close. Was it hard to be attending college and trying to figure out your career path while having a child? No, it wasn't because the teachers, my parents, my parents. You know, were very supportive. I had the help there. And my mom was also very, very supportive.

Her main thing was that I go to school. So whatever help I needed, she made sure I get the help that I needed. And was the father in the picture? Yes, he was. He was still. Was he a good dad at that point in time? Yes, he was. That's good. And what about the financial situation? How are you guys between school and a child and everything? Yeah. Well, you know, my life back then was not difficult, I would say. I live with my mom. And my mom is the type of person that saves. If she have $15, she would make sure a $5 goes into the bank. And, you know, you can see now that she's retired, you can see the benefit of making sure that you handle your money wisely, right? But there was nothing that I needed that I didn't get. And there was nothing that my son needed that

we didn't, that she didn't get, my mom made sure that we were taking care of. And also, um, his father also worked. So, you know, I was able to help supplement whatever my mom gave me. And I was also working. Yeah. Where did you work while you're in college? When I was, I was working at a jewelry store. A jewelry store. What were you doing there? I was just, you know, salesperson. Okay. So still pretty much a normal life besides having a kid. I mean, 21 is not that young compared to teenagers are having kids at 16 or 17 nowadays. So pretty normal life. You finish college. What career do you end up landing on? So I didn't do anything in, with my degree at all. I, like most people in the world. Yeah, I didn't. My mom had said, well, you know, you could go and

teach because someone was an educator. I said, no, I don't want to do that. So I ended up at a law firm, and they specialized in immigration work. And that's where I got into the immigration fail. Did that really stick with you because you were an immigrant yourself? Yes. And also, you know, from hearing the story of what, you know, my mom went through, I really wanted to help. I wanted to make a change in the lives of these people. And, you know, I end up doing well and left, started my own business. You started your own business. How old are you when you do this? I was, I think I was about 25 years old when I started my own business. You're on top of the world right now. That's awesome. 25 years old, started my own business, yeah. And what exactly are you doing? Like, what's the day-to-day

life of being in immigration law like that? So I would basically, it was a full day, you know, had a lot of clients. I did not charge like an attorney because I wasn't at one. So when you don't charge a lot of money and you do good work, you know, it's word them out, you know, people's talking, well, she's doing great work. And so I was able to have a lot of clients. I started in my home in my basement and eventually was too much traffic coming in and out. So I had to rent a building and I started working there. I had a staff and it went well. It went very, very well. Are you still living at your mother's house at this time or you moved out? No, I had moved out and bought my own house. With your, the baby dad is he a husband? I had left him. You left him? I left him. I left him. I left

him, had another child. With a different man. Yes. And I got married. to him at that time. The other guy. Oh, you guys got married? Yes, we got married. At what age? This is 27? This was, I got married to, what is 20, 26.

Now, I'm assuming you're not married now. I just got divorced. So looking back on it because. So let me just say this, just got divorced with the second husband. Oh, with a second husband. So you got divorced from the first husband. That's my son, Dominique. That's my youngest son.

that's his dad. Looking back on it now, do you regret that decision to get married at that age? Yes. Yes, I did. Because there's a lot. I mean, I have a lot of friends. I'm only 28 and I have friends that have been married for a couple years now. And I just, I don't know, I feel like sometimes it's so young, like there's so much more to experience out there. Right. What would you tell people for someone that's that's gone through it yourself? Wait. Just to wait. Wait, live life. But you felt it was right in the moment. No, I didn't. Oh, and you still got me? Oh, wow. I felt sorry for him, really. I did. And, you know, the best thing that came out of that marriage was my son, but I really felt sorry for him and I felt forced. Like, you know, I had to prove to him that I loved him so I got married.

My mom said, don't do this because that's not the type of guy that you like, right? But I went ahead and didn't listen and got married and it didn't last long. It lasted for about two years. Did you think you married him because of your abandonment issues with your father? Do you think that was a causing? No, no, I just felt like, you know, I married him because that, he had an issue with insecurity and I felt like I had to marry him to prove to him that I loved him. And not that I didn't, I did, but I was not in love, if that makes sense.

Yeah. Yeah. That's like when you're getting out of a relationship and you're not in love with the person, but you love the person, you care for them, but it's an entirely different dynamic. Right, right. So you're married, you have two kids now, you're on top of the world, you have a thriving business. I guess a million dollar question here is how the hell does it go wrong? It went wrong because I did something wrong. So what happened is this that in 2000 and, no, in 1984 there was a program, an amnesty program. It was called CSS and Lulac. And I wasn't doing immigration work at that time. And so immigration at that time was USCIS, no, immigration and naturalization services and they were given out green cards to folks that came into the country in the early

80s, even if they didn't come in legally, they would, but they show proof that they were in a country in 1984, they would give them green cards. And what happened is that immigration allotted, I think, 500 green cards, but they didn't put it out there how many green cards they allotted it. So they had an influx of people applying for these green cards and just didn't get so they closed down the program. A lot of people lost their money, which is their application filing fee. If they had went to an attorney, they lost that fee.

They went to a preparer. They lost that fee. So they had a class action lawsuit against USCIS, and they had to reopen back up the case. And so they opened it up in 2004. And that's when I got in and started doing the paperwork. And so one of the part that they had to do was, if they didn't have any bills, any credit cards, anything to show that they were in the country

in 1984, someone can do an affidavit for them. Someone who's a citizen could do an affidavit for them. And so some of the letters that were brought to me as affidavit, I knew that they were fake, but I still submitted them to immigration. No, they were fake from back in the 80s or people are read? No, people are saying that they knew these people, were in the country and they wrote write these letters, but I knew they weren't. So your job is to process it and send it through as the citizen that you're like stamping the approval. So you knew from the very first time you did that. Yeah, it was wrong. Why did you do that? Is it because you were

an immigrant yourself and you felt bad or was it something else? Yeah, it wasn't necessary because I was an immigrant because I didn't have to go through that. When I came in the country, I came in legally, but I was just thinking more so of what my mom went through, you know, and so I wanted to help. There was, you know, parents, you know, children, children that was born here, and what would happen if they were deported, what would happen to the kids. So I thought that that would be a way for me to help and not thinking that I would get caught. And it ran for a while, and it, from 2004, and the program ended in 2006, and I didn't

get arrested until 2009. Did you have like a limit in your head of how many you are going to pass through? Or were you just going to keep going? So we, I did 65 application. Out of the 65, there was only three that was illegal. Really? Yes. So you're telling me that you go to jail for almost 10 years over three pieces of documents. No one got defrauded. Nothing. It was just that that is wild. Yes. So are you making extra money by passing these through? No. So this is simply, you're doing this out of the goodness of your heart. I'm doing it as a job. Yes, but also trying to, you know,

turn a blind eye to something that I knew was illegal. I had a suspicion that it was illegal, but I still submitted it. And what I should have done by law is to notify immigration that I'm still submitting these applications because it was given to me to be submitted, but I think that it may be fraudulent, that's the correct thing that they wanted me to do, but I didn't do that.

Now, how old are you at this point in time when this is happening? When I got arrested? No, when you're passing these first applications. I was probably, I was, I'm going to see, 32 years old. Are you thinking at that point, like, if I do this, I'm putting my whole family, everything I built at risk, was there any type of thoughts like that? No, I just, I never thought that I would get caught. So that was the main motivator.

Yeah. Do you consult with your mother at all to kind of get her? No. Do you wish you had looking back on it? Yeah, because she would have told me not to. And just anyone in your business, no one, like. Yeah, no one knows. Wow.

That's, it's interesting why people make like certain decisions like that to risk everything for something that they believe in, though. Right. But, you know, looking back, I never thought it was a risk. I just thought that, okay, I'm just doing it and that's it. I think that sometimes when we do certain things and we know it's wrong, we're not thinking that, we know it's wrong, but we're not thinking that this is what's going to happen. The consequences behind what, you know, what you do, whether you're going to go to prison or not. That was not my thought. I never thought that I was going to prison. I thought that even if I got caught, you know, I would just have to probably pay immigration back or a fine or just stop doing the work that I do. I never thought that I would go to prison. I mean, hearing this now, I'd never think he'd go to prison for this either. So you, this happens for two years.

Like, you pass three illegal documents through. And then the program ends. Everything's good. And what happens? One day the Fed show up? No. So what happened is that one of the client that I did that submitted the fraudulent document, she was working in, I think it was Pennsylvania.

and while she was doing a living job and while she was coming home, they searched a bus and they arrested her because she didn't have anything to show that she was in the country legally. And when they asked her, when did she come in the country? She told them a different date. When they looked through the system, they saw that her passport had a different date than the application that was filed. And that really ensued a whole investigation. with my, my, my company, but also they were also investigated this whole CSS and LULAC cases,

because immigration was saying that there was a lot of fraudulent application that was passing through. So, you know, that kind of just started them to investigate my, my company. Couldn't that have just been like a misunderstanding, though, with the dates not matching the passport, or is it very cut and dry in that? It's very cut and dry in that, yeah, because, whatever dates that your passport stamps, that's the date that you arrive in the country. And if you file a paperwork with immigration, it should match that date. It should not have another date that you arrive in the country.

Because when you look at the date, you would see that she didn't come into the country in the 80s. She came into the country in 90s. So how could she be qualified or eligible for this particular program? Now, when do you first find out you're being investigated? I found out in 2000, I would say January 2008, one of my clients reached out to me and says, hey, you know, there was someone from ICE here asking questions about you. And I'm like, oh, okay. And, you know, another client reached out to me. And I'm like, okay, I'm just waiting for them to reach out to me. And it went by and went through all of 2008, nothing. And I thought, okay, well, they didn't find anything. So that was the end of that. But no, I was arrested November of 2009. They never talked to you.

They never came for an initial interview. Nope. Why do you think that was? I don't know. So you never even thought to get a lawyer, nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Talk me through the day you're arrested.

How does that go down? So the day I got arrested, see, I was going through a lot of things because I was arrested in, in 2009 and my son died was killed in 2000. My oldest son was killed in 2008. Oh, wow. So I was dealing with that. I was also going to the trial of the boys that killed my son. And I was just laying down.

I was expecting the cable guy to show up that morning. And it was about 5.30 in the morning. I heard a knock on it do. And I'm like, who's that knocking? I like, the cable people's here this early. And when I looked outside, I saw these black cars. It was about seven of them. And the guys in feds, you know, feds.

And I'm like, oh, my God, what is going on? And they kept knocking on the door, knocking on door. And I ran downstairs. My youngest son was downstairs. And I said, okay, the feds are here. And he's like, what? I said, the feds are here. He says, for who?

I said, for me. And I tried to, I said, okay, I am going to go through the back door and you open up the front door and let them know that I'm not here. And as I opened up the back door, they was there waiting for me and I was arrested. And they took me inside and they allowed me to change my clothes. And they changed my clothes, the beauty of it. And I wish I was so grateful that they did not handcuff me in front of my son. They just put me in the back seat of the car.

I was taken to JFK Airport in a holding. facility and they interviewed me and I told them I needed to get my attorney and they called my attorney and we went down to, we drove down to Manhattan and I was arraigned. Wait, they brought you to JFK Airport to hold you? I've never heard of that before. They have a holding facility that the feds do. Uh-huh. And that's where they first interrogated you. Well, first off, there's a lot to dissect here. One, I'm sorry about the loss of your son. I couldn't even imagine that at that that time and then to have this happen to you. Thank you. And then number two, you were about to implicate your younger son to this whole thing. This is like some dog the bounty hunter. You were

telling them to go lie to each other the feds. They would have been hauled you both out in cuffs. Wow. So what's going through your mind when you get arrested? You're facing, you're dealing with the loss of your firstborn. Now the FBI slapping the FBA's slapping the cuffs on you. What are you thinking. I was, I was angry. I was angry because two of the, um, the agents that arrested me, I remember seeing them at my son's funeral. They were watching it. Yes. And I didn't know. So, I was very, very angry. I didn't answer any questions. Um, they just, you know, peppered me with these questions. I'm like, I don't have anything to say. I just need my attorney. And I remember the one of the officer from ICE says you know we know that you are dealing with the death of your son

we really don't want you we just want these people that you help they wanted you to see yes and I said no I said no I don't have anything to say I don't have anything to give to you and we stay there for a while I you know and then eventually they took me into Manhattan and that's where it was arraigned. So they wanted to know the other documents you passed through? They wanted to know the other documents who they were, who the people were, and also they wanted to know if I knew of anyone else that were in the country illegal. So had you given this information up, do you think it would have went away or do you think they would have went after you either? It may have went away and or if not, I probably would have gotten probation. Definitely not 10 years.

This just seems like a lot for a couple pieces of paperwork. Well, you know, when you know the feds are, when they want something, they want something. Absolutely. And if they don't get their way, they're going to punish you to the max. But no one got hurt. No one lost money. This isn't about drugs. You weren't making money, like excessive amount of money off of these things.

And initially when they arrested me, they, when I got to the court, I saw that there was about 65 other folks that were arrested also for the same thing. And they all charges for, they charge us all for the same thing, which was swindling and harboring aliens. So my attorney said, swindling, who? Who did she swindle? And where's these aliens that she's harboring? Eventually they dismissed the charges. And then they did a supersede indictment.

And I was charged with conscious avoidance. Like I knew that the paperwork that I was submitting to immigration was fraudulent, but I turned a blind eye and also that few of the applications I did not sign my name. And they also charged me for identity theft. And here's the identity theft part that they claim that I signed my client's name to these three applications. Oh, wow. Now, are you released on Bond while all this is going on? Yes. What's a conversation with your mother like?

She's got to be devastated. My entire family was. My entire family was, and they were shop, right? They wanted to know why I would do something like this. I try to explain it as much as I could. But they also kind of held back. You know, they could have been harder on me, but they held back because they knew that I was also dealing with my son's death

and I was struggling. So it was more so how can we feel? fix this. How can we make this go away? What is it that you need from me to help you? And, you know, they got the best attorney for me. And I just went through the whole system. What about your husband? How's your relationship with him? Well, it was to a point of breaking before I was arrested. But yes, it did, I think, put the nail in the coffin. He felt like I had made a decision to do something that was illegal and I didn't consult with him and I was doing all this and he didn't know. He's like, I don't even know who you are. And I didn't care.

I really didn't care because I was in so much pain that none of that mattered. And even though I knew that the charges were serious, I was, I just was not in my right. frame of mind. So for me, the only thing I wanted to do at that particular time was just sleep, just sleep. Because when I go to sleep, I wouldn't feel that pain. When I go to sleep, I would think about my stream about my son. That was the consuming thing was my son and missing my son. So I did not really care about anything else. What about your youngest son? How is, like, is he old enough to comprehend what's going on? Is he getting bullied at school? Like, is this in the news? It wasn't on the news.

And he wasn't bullied. But he was concerned, very much so concerned about what, you know. He's probably trying to figure out how to support. Yeah, yeah. And didn't know how. And that was the whole thing with the family that was trying to figure out how to help me. But really, nobody knew how. This was the first time dealing with this.

I was the only one in the family that got arrested. And this was all new to us. We just didn't have anything to do. It's not like we had issues with the feds before, even issues with the law before. So this was all new. And it was something that we was trying to, you know, work our way through and see how best we can resolve it. And it's interesting to see how you could be on the top of the world and lose everything so quickly based off on one decision. One decision.

That's just like the people that make that decision to drunk drive or do something they're not supposed to. changes everything. Absolutely. Like you could wake up the next day in a jail cell for the rest of your life based on one one millisecond decision. It's crazy. Now at that time period, you're not thinking you're ever going to go to jail. No. What's your lawyer telling you? So my attorney was telling me that, oh, you know, don't worry. This is your first arrest. They don't have a lot of stuff on you. and, you know, it's going to be okay. And I believed him. I really did.

However, my secretary ended up getting arrested shortly after. And when she got, when the feds went to her house, she called me, and I called my attorney. And he said, I couldn't represent her because I'm representing you. However, I do know of criminal attorney in. the building that he rents so I can recommend that she can speak with him and she went in and she spoke with him so now the prosecutor arrested her they found out that he had she had a conversation with my attorney now the judge says okay guess what you have to get a new attorney to you yes and you have 24 hours to get a new attorney so you just lost your paid really good attorney that's

specialized in this, he's gone. $75,000. His fee was $150,000. We paid $75,000, right? Two months into the case, he was off. We lost $75,000. The judge is looking at me and he's telling me, okay, you have 24 hours to come up with a new attorney. I'm like, I don't have the money. He's like, well, you're going to have to get the money, 24 hours. Or a public defender? I wasn't assigned a public defended, they would not give me one. Is it because you were making too much money with your business? They felt like I had the money. They felt like you had the money.

Because there's certain like financial paperwork you have to fill out. Yes. And you had assets. Interesting. So the lawyer didn't refund you anything because it was his fault. He talked to her? Like why were they talking? No, he didn't.

He just said, the only thing that he said was I couldn't represent you. So I will introduce you to someone else. But the government felt like that may not. have been the extent of the conversation. They may have been other, but more to the conversation, and that would have been a conflict of interest. So they needed for him to recuse himself from my case. Okay. So what happens next? So I end up getting another attorney. A paid lawyer? A paid one. That was, I like to blast him, but, you know, that's Xavier Donaldson. And I got him. He charged, I think it was 120.

Yes, 120. And it was like, he says when I met him, he was like, okay, it's okay. It's like, it sounds so simple. And he says, okay, well, your charges, feel your charges, I'm going to get dismissed. And when he got the swindling and the harboring of alien, I'm thinking, okay, good, that's it. And then the same day I had to go into the court for them to dismiss the charge, it's the same day I was hit with the supersede indictment. So he's like, don't worry about him.

Don't worry about it. Everything is going to be okay. I know a few people over at the, you know, the southern district. So I'll take care of it, everything like that. And again, naive, believed him. And I must have saw him about, I would say, three times, just having the conversation with him. I didn't discuss anything about my case, anything just, he wanted to know how I was dealing with my son's death.

And that was it. And we end up going to trial. I didn't want to go to trial then. I got nervous. And I said, okay, you know what? I don't want to go to trial. I said, because now they're saying, if I'm found guilty, I get 60 years. And I'm like, okay, so if I don't get 60 years, I may get close to that.

And I don't want to take a chance. He's like, well, they're not offering you a plea. There was no plea deal offered you at all. Later on, after I was sentenced, I found that there was. There was a plea deal that he withheld from you? Yes. So you probably had a good appeal issue. It's 24. Well, I did appeal it. And you lost them.

I lost appeal. All right. So we'll get to that aspect of it. Now, the lawyer, let's put this in a perspective so the audience knows, you're being prosecuted by one of the most powerful, you know, district attorneys in the country. The Southern District of New York is it has a crazy reputation. And at the time, what was it, Pete? Who had that incident with Donald Trump going back and forth. He made the headlines years later. You were probably happy when he got fired. You're rooting for that. But I mean, we'll leave politics out of this. But that's a, it's a powerful organization against one woman in her early 30s. They're not offering you a deal. So I thought.

Yeah, and you go to trial. And I go to trial. How long is this trial? The trial lasts for five days. Oh, that's always the worst one. It's just five days. Five days. Now, can you describe the setting? Like, what does it look? What does the courtroom look like? It's you and your lawyer on one side. Yes. And then the jury's and then the judge. And here's the thing. So because I did immigration work and I knew a lot of judge, right? They end up not choosing a judge in New York to try my case. So they bought in a judge from Chicago to sit to try my case. And of course he was mean. But yeah. And now your business is done at this point? Yes. Did they order you to shut it down? No, I shut it down on my own. So you have no income coming in? No income. And you're spending all this money. I'm just, I'm astounded by how much

these New York top lawyers are costing. Did you have to pay more than the $120,000 for a trial or that included it? That included a trial. Okay. Yeah, I don't think people put into perspective how much. Yes, because we had lost 75 and then we end up paying another $120. And, yes, I went to trial, the courtroom, then I saw the big camera, I mean, the TV screen, the United States of America versus Clover Perez.

And I'm like, what is? And I'm like, what it's Beth? And I was like, wow, now this is big deal. This is some big, big deal. And it sure was. It really was. I wanted to testify. Luckily, I did not.

My attorney, that was something that he did, was, you know, advised me. He says, like, no, I don't want you to testify because if you do and you're found guilty, you get two extra points for lying. And I'm like, but I'm telling the truth, how could they give me, it says, Once you're found guilty, they would automatically think that you lied. So you would get two extra points. You automatically get no extra points for going to trial because it's not accepting responsibility to. Right, right.

The system doesn't want you to have a fair trial. They stack it against you. No, they don't. Because with a white collar crime and you go to trial, they automatically start you off with five points. And then they start stacking it up, stacking it up. And, yeah, so it just lasted for five days. and no one, none of my clients testified. None.

It was just my secretary testified against me, and the whole thing was script. She took a deal. She took a deal. Yeah, she got a year probation. So it's like an immunity deal, basically, and she could say whatever she wants. Whatever she wants to say. She's protected. Yes, she testified against me.

Then you have the USCIS came in to explain the whole process of the CSS in the Lula case. And that, and of course, the, of course, the I. agent that arrested me and that was it and I'm sure the U.S. attorney side is loaded like they have agents they have interns they have everyone of course and I remember something they wanted to put a particular document in and the judge was saying no my attorney I should says no you can't because this is a piece of evidence that we didn't receive and I remember the ice agent he's like pushing it in to the light so the jurors can see it and I'm like oh my God this is crazy but the whole system is just set up for a failure, right? And I now understand why so many people take a deal, you know,

and plea out to something that they may have not done when it comes to dealing with the feds because they don't want to deal with the feds because they know that they're not going to win. And if they do, it's what? Really. That's why their conviction rates high. Yes, the conviction rate is very, very high. And I didn't know that. I didn't know that. I just felt like I was exercising my constitutional right, right, in which is to go to trial, but I didn't know that I would be penalized for that. Yeah.

And by all means, I was. Now, do you think you not being an initial American citizen helped or worked against you with the jury? Do you think there was any bias at all? No, I don't believe. I don't think there was. Okay. And what about being a woman?

Do you think that affected the outcome at all? I don't believe it could have, but I don't at that time. And looking back now, I don't believe that I think that being black, absolutely. But I don't think it had anything to do with gender or, you know, whether I was from another country or not, no. Or even being a combination of all three. Was there any people of color on the jury at all? One.

One person. Yes. A male or a... It was a female. A female. Yes. Something that was interesting in my case when we were going through jury selection, which I'm assuming you did too.

My lawyer wanted to make sure that there was persons of color on the jury to help influence it. You didn't want like an all white like conservative type jury that's like very pro the justice system. So just to kind of like it's interesting to see. And there's a lot that goes into jury selection. Absolutely. That was probably like a whole day or a deal for you. It's a whole day. It was two days.

And what I also learned is that with the government, they have their own people that they use as jurors. I didn't know that. I just thought it was okay, just like normal citizen that they would just send out a jury form. And then you know, they have their own set of people that they have to choose as jurors. How long did the jury deliberate for? They deliberated for about three hours.

Three hours. That's got to be a little disheartening when they come back that fast. The one question that they had was with. the identity theft, they wanted to find out if there was any ID, any credit cards, any, you know, bank accounts, anything, because they couldn't understand how just saying that you sign someone's name that will constitute identity theft. And so the judge had to read and says, no, there's none of that is involved. It's just a signature. Now looking back on it now, do you wish you could testify to kind of pull the sympathy card to say what your mindset was and

kind of, like that was one of the reasons why I testified at my trial, so that way the jury could kind of see me as a human being and understood my mindset at the time. That's so, yes, I wanted to do that, but now looking back, no, I don't wish I did, because I would have had an extra two points added to my sentence. So instead of getting 10 years, I may have gotten 11 or 12 years. So the outcome would have been the same? Yeah. Do you ever think about the what ifs though like maybe that could have affected their decision i think about the what if yes what if i didn't go to trial right if there was just a deal it was there was a deal and then later on when i did um peel my case i found out there there was a deal 24 months 24 months which seems a little bit

more realist i mean honestly my perspective no jail time was warranted given everything but 24 months is better than what you ended up getting you're found guilty what's what's your thoughts what's your mom thinking in the courtroom. What are you thinking? So I was immediately remanded. Really? They didn't leave you on. The prosecutor said that now a flight risk. And they immediately remanded me, asked me to take off my jury and things like that. And I gave it to my family. It was almost like a well just bust open inside of me because I was holding on to so many things. And I thought about, wow, now who's going to in my son's grave because I used to go there, who's going to clean his grave off, who's going to do all of those things. I thought about my younger son, Dominique, what's going to happen to him?

You know, my mom, I'm the only child. I thought about all of those, but I didn't want to break down, even though I was crying. I didn't want to break down in front of them. I didn't want them to see me being weak. And I didn't just, I just didn't want to add that extra layer of burden to my family. So, you know, I didn't. know, it just said my goodbyes, and then they just led me into the back room in their estate until they shackled me, had stilettos on, and you can just imagine walking with stilettos and being shackled by, you know, the legs and shackled with other people that were being taken to MDC, Brooklyn.

I can't imagine just, like, keeping that all bottled up, like, when there's times in people's lives where they have to be mentally strong and hold it together. It's hard to keep those around us. Like that's some of the toughest things people have to do in their life. Is there a time where you just start breaking down like on that way back to MDC? Or do you hold it together the whole way? I held it together because I didn't want. Yamava Resort and Casino at San Manuel is California's number one entertainment destination for today's superstars. Catch the Jonas Brothers return to the Yamava Theater stage on April 3. 30th, the powerful vocals of Demi Lovato on May 17th,

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Please drink responsibly. Kaman Jack beverage company, Chicago, Illinois. The other people that was there to see me cry, I thought that that would show a sign of weakness and never been to prison before. My only, you know, the only thing I knew about, my points of reference, I should say about prisons what I saw on TV. So I was expecting the worst and I wanted and tried to held it together so I can be strong. And, you know, once they processed me and I went upstairs, the ladies there, were very welcoming, you know. They came up to me and wanted to know if I needed anything.

And I think I broke down the night when I just laid on the bunk and I put the blanket over my head and then I just, that's when reality hits, you know, like setting like, wow, this is really happening, right? I am going to go to prison. This is really, really happening. And it was almost like my mind just kind of played back like a slow motion video. of what led to this and how I could have done differently, how I could have said no, you know,

and, you know, just being regretful, just being shameful, and just wondering, okay, what my life is going to be like now. You know, now I have to try to figure out who I am with my son's death, you know. I just felt like I just lost clover and just not knowing who I am. and trying to live with someone that you don't know who they are.

You know, it's almost like you're living into, you're living in a place, but you don't know anything about the place. You don't know anything about the people. And now you're living with yourself that you really don't have an idea who that person is. So for me, it was very, very difficult.

And you're all alone. Yes. Like there's people, you're in a spot where there's people around you. There's help in a way if you do ask for it, but you're alone. But you're alone. Those staff don't care about you.

if you went, the only way they're caring is if you say, I'm suicidal and then they'll just move you into another cell and leave you there. And strip you naked. Yeah. Yeah. I think my biggest issue with this is that you lost a trial and you're remanded right away when you have all of these white women celebrities that have done way worse and they're allowed to stay out.

And they're getting extensions. look at the Elizabeth Holmes situation. She was having a child allowed her to stay out, all of that. There is a good dude ice, right? Yeah, just everything. Joe was able to complete his sentence or whatever. It's just, it's mind-blowing how unfair the system is in that sense.

There is no reason why you should have been remanded in that not able to put your affairs in order. And you didn't know how much time you were getting, but it would be like eight years or nine years, just gone after that. Right. And just, you know, leaving home, not preparing mentally or not even putting things in place that you may not be coming home, you know, that you were going to be remanded that day, that same day. And I stayed in Brooklyn, and for people that don't know about Brooklyn, MDC, it's like a box in a box. Worst place ever. Yes, the worst. No sunlight.

You're not, no windows, nothing. And I stayed there for 13 months, wait. for my judge now to come back from Chicago, to come into New York to sentence me. When all that 13 months, I could have been home trying to put my affairs in order, but I was not given that time. And that is the worst place to do time. Yeah. Like the average or so people know that MDC is like a holdover spot detent. Only people that are like assigned there for cadre or whatever it's called will actually

Yeah, we'll spend their time there. But normally you're only supposed to be there waiting for your. case to conclude or anything like that fighting the charges you already found guilty or waiting sentencing there is no reason why you shouldn't have been did your lawyer put in a motion for for a bond pending um sentencing no after the case was over the case was over for him yeah the system failed you in that in that sense now that when you first got to mdc what's it like to go from like this business owner raised in a good family supported to being stripped out by federal markets What's that feeling like?

It was sad. It just, you know, going through the whole stripped search, I felt like that was, like I was being raped, right? And that here you have an officer doing an inventory, not only an inventory of the clothes that I'm taking up, but also an inventory on my body that was so dehumanizing. You know, I've never had anyone looked at me. like that, you know, and I was nervous. I was scared. And I just couldn't believe that this was my new life, right? This is where I ended up. I just could not believe that. So I was in shop also. I was scared because now I'm downstairs in a processing center. I don't know what to expect when I get upstairs. I, you know, I'm thinking that I'm going to get into fights, right? You know, I'm going to

cut with a razor. They're going to shave my head. I'm going to be in this orange suit because, again, my only point of reference of what prison looks like is what I see on TV. So that's what I was expecting when I got upstairs. Which is everyone's point of view that's never been to prison before. Yes. Now, is it only female officers that strip out women inmates? Yes. So it's never a male. Never a male. And are you put into a jumpsuit or how does that work? Yes, so I'm put into an orange jumpsuit. So the woman get orange jumps. I think the men had brown. In Brooklyn, yeah. I remember having a red one. I think the cadre had brown or green or something like that. I know we didn't have orange. You didn't have orange. Yeah, I think the cadre maybe had green. We had brown. And it's a one piece.

Yes. Oh, God. And we would use our second one as a pillow because they don't give you pillows. You're put on a thin mattress. Very, very thin mattress. Wow. So let's go to sentencing. Day of your sentencing your can you just describe what it's like to go from being detained in jail to transported to the sentencing hearing yeah so i was um on my way to sentences i was happy to be outside it was raining and um you know because i've been locked up inside another box for 13 months not being able to see how outside look it was raining and i just broke down it's just you know know, the sunlight, I welcomed that, and it was almost like seeing things through different lenses, right? And just going into the courtroom, I remembered, I can describe exactly how the courtroom

was set up, the carpet, the color in the carpet. I was just looking all around. I'm like, God, this, you have to come and save me. You know, this, I cannot go through this. more. And it was almost like I was looking around everything. I was studying everything, but I was trying to find God someplace, you know, to show me that, okay, it's going to be okay. It's going to be okay. You know, you're going to go home. And I'm still thinking that, okay, I spent 13 months, you know, even though I got the PSR reported, PESR report says, this is the time that, but I never thought that. I would be sentenced to that. I thought that there would be more empathy. you know, to know that this is not something that I intentionally wanted to cause any harm.

There was no loss to my clients. There was no loss to immigration. And, you know, I just dealt with the loss of my son, the death of my son. I thought that there would be more empathy, but there was none. The judge allowed me to say what I needed to say, and I apologize. And one of the things that I remember the judge saying is this that, you know, you have done so much and you have done so much charity work. But even though you have done all of those things, it's not a card launch for you to commit a crime. And then he says to me, I have every expectation when you come out of the penitentiary that you are.

are going to be great. And when he said penitentiary, I said, baby, I'm going to prison. This is it. It's really going to happen. But never thought that it was going to be that 10 years. So I was sentenced for 98 months for the charges plus the extra 24 months for the identity. Now, when you hear 98 months, are you trying to calculate that in your head? Well, because that's how I was when I got 36 months.

I'm like, yeah, I was trying to figure out, what is this? You know? Because sometimes we hear about 36, 48 months. We never hear anything 98 months or 120 months. We don't hear those things. That's not what we say normally in life. Those are not numbers that we throw out when it comes to months. We usually say 10 years, 8 years, whatever.

And so, yeah, when I rap by heteroon, I said, my God. And it was like, for me, when I heard this was like a life. sentence. This is so fucked. I mean, like, I'm sitting here thinking in my head right now, like I got 36 months and mine was related to money, like take my age out of it, take whether it was accidental, intentional, whatever. I got 36 months over money and you got 10 years over three pieces of paper. There's something wrong with the system in that sense. Was the judge a white judge or he was a white older? Older, yes. Do you know who he was appointed buy or anything like that um no i don't no i don't that that's that's that's crazy but you know i

i it was it was it was just so real is your mom in the courtroom when that's red yes do you hear her like sobbing out at all yes and my son um just telling me that it's gonna be okay and my mom says oh why are you we're gonna appeal and um when i heard them said okay we're gonna appeal this were going to appeal this, I held onto that because that was basically those word undergird me, right? Because I felt like if I didn't hear that, I probably would have passed out. I felt like I wanted to pass out, you know. But I, you know, held on to what they said, and I knew that my family was going to do everything in their power to try to get me out. And I strongly believe deep inside that I was not going to spend, you know, the 10 years in prison.

Yeah. You have to hold on to something in those situations. That's what I held on to for a while until it, like I'll always say, you split my prison sentence in two parts. It's the first part is holding on to the appeal. And the second part is once you realize there's no hope, then you're just focused on the getting home aspect of it. By that time, it's time for you to get home.

Yeah. So you hold on to that. Absolutely. What prison do they put you in? Danbury. You're in Danbury. Well, this is a plot twist right here because I'm from Danbury. I was in the Danbury prison.

Okay. And so for the people that don't know that are listening, Danbury is, most people think of it as a woman's prison. And there's a men's low next to it, too, that they added on. Right. So were you in prison with Teresa? Yes. So here's the thing.

So when I went to Danbury in 2003, In 2013, the FCI was a woman facility at that time. It wasn't a men yet. It wasn't a man, no. So I spent eight months in the FCI. It was all fenced around. And then I went to the camp. And the camp is not fenced around.

And then eventually they build the medium security, the lower, that's women. And they turned back the women now into a men facility. I'm glad they at least sent you to a camp. Like they railroaded you every step of the way and they gave you a camp. Yeah. Now, the camp, you have to have less than 10 years on your sentence, right? No, as a matter of fact, I thought so, but you had women there that was 15 years, yeah.

Now, when you got that piece of paper from your case manager, how much time did you actually have to serve on your sentence? So I didn't get a paper from the case manager. I just heard on a Sunday, they called my name. That's when I was in FCI and they said, you need to pack out. And it was the morning that I was leaving that I knew that I was going to go to Danbury. To Danbury. And we went to Jersey, and that's where you see the Khan Air, the offices with these long guns and things like that. And up's the conned here all taped up with tapes.

The wings of like, oh, my God. But, you know, I just sat in the van. Yeah, what's it like to be transported from one prison to another in the federal prison system? It was hard. It was really, really hard. You know, you just try to sit still, don't move because you have officers in every angle, at every angle with a gun and you think that if you flinch, you know, they think that you're going to do something and they may shoot you and things like that. But when we was at the Air Force Strip in Jersey, and that's where they had the con air and you see every area. There was officers with guns, these long guns and people coming off the plane and shackled and everything like that. And when I saw the men coming off the plane, had these very thin blue suit on, and there was like drape with chains to make them seem like they were dangerous. I broke. And I didn't, and it's funny because when I tell people that they look at me weird, I didn't cry when I saw the woman coming off.

I cried when I saw the men because I thought about my son. Yeah. Right? And if this could happen to me, this could happen to him as well. And it's just how they made them look so dangerous. You know, all these chains over them. There was all draped with chains. And I just cried.

I cried and I cried. It's heartbreaking to see that, especially as a mother who lost, not only lost her son, but has another son. and you're away from him for that long. And I said, this is what this country is about. And that was the first time I actually regretted being in this country, being a part of this country. I regretted it. You feel like it failed you?

Yes. Because this is not what I always heard about this great America, right? Fairness, the justice, the equality. This is not what I expected. And, you know, it's not only failed me, but it fails so many others. And I can see them as they came off the plane. I can see them as they are handcuffed to me towards me, mothers who have left their children home, you know, to go to prison, or when there could have been other, you know, other ways of dealing with the situation,

alternative to incarceration, you know, and I just didn't think that it was right. It was just, for me, it was, it was so inhumane. And I think you have to see it with your own eyes. Yes. I mean, if you put any of the politicians in that setting, that's when the change, I think, will happen. It's not going to be any time before that. Like, we can do our best to do that.

Social media influencers could get involved and everything like that. But the people that are actually making the policy need to experience that. And they need to do it in a way where, like, I remember being, in the system and they would say like a state senator or whatever is a governor's coming and the prison is all on top tier and it looks great and everything's good and they take everyone out of the shoe there's no one in solitary and they butter it up yeah and it's crazy they just quickly usher you through usher that person through so it's never a conversation right and if it's so happens that someone does speak to that person you have to be careful what you're going to say

because then the retaliation thereafter. And knowing how the system is now, I wouldn't even be surprised if they just don't allow the letters to go out to those places where they do send it. And the ones that are bad, they just rip up. Like, there's no way to prove if your mail's actually getting to these senators

when you're in prison fighting like that. You just have no idea. They have no idea. And it's so corrupt. Whether anyone wants to say it or not, like it's a truth to it. It's a truth to it. So you get to Danbury.

I have so many questions about this, present camp. Do you do your whole sentence in Danbury? Yes. Okay, that's good. At least they didn't put you through diesel therapy. No. So a woman's federal prison camp, what's that like? Like, what's the sleeping arrangements like? How many women are at this camp? What's the scenario? And for people that also don't know, this is where orange is the new black is based on. Right. Right. So I was able to meet Teresa. I was able to meet Lauren Hill. She was there as well. Really? Yeah. So, you know, the camp is a much nicer place to be. And I think that if anyone had to go to prison, they would want to go to a camp. It's much more laid back. There is no bars. There's no cells. There's no handcuff. The door is a wide open 24-7.

You know, you can go outside. You can stay outside if you want all night. And it's much more laid-back. you know, the officers, they're much more relaxed. And even, you know, the folks that are incarcerated there are much more relaxed as well because they don't want to lose their camp status. So it was, it was really a better place for me coming from the FCI where I was locked in and, you know, had to deal with the fences and all that. And you have guards with the guns and things like that. So it was much. relax. I say that, and I say it often, because when I see something that's inhumane or see something that's bad, I speak out about it. But I also want to let people aware that not every officer is bad, right? And if there's good things that happen in prison, I want to say that, you know,

these are what happened. That was good. And I will say that in Danbury Federal Camp, I found favor. I really and truly found favor. There was nothing that I wanted that I didn't have. The officers there were very nice to me. I remember when I first got there for the first six months, it was difficult because I had a problem being called inmate. I did not, I did not answer to that. And I felt like, okay, you put me here, and then now you want to dehumanize me. Now you're going to sign. a dehumanizing name to me and that is not me. You don't have any clue about who I am, and I refuse the answer to inmate Perez.

So it took a long time, and they threatened to send me to the shoe, and I said, it's okay, I'm just not going to answer to something that I'm not, because I'm not an inmate, and I fought that, and it lasted for about six months, and eventually, The warden came up, and she's like, I heard you causing problems up here. I said, I'm not causing problem. I said, you know, I just want you to understand where I'm coming from. Yes, I committed a crime. Yes, I'm here. But I'm here to serve my time, not to be treated like an animal, not to be called out of my name. My name is Clover Perez, and that's what I want to be called, not inmate Perez. I refuse to answer to

inmate Perez. So if that means that I am going to be, I have to spend the rest of my time in the shoe, then that is something that I am going to do. I felt like I lost my voice doing my trial. So now I'm here. I have the 10 years. Do what you need to do. And she says, you know, Ms. Perez, I understand. She says, I understand. I also understand that you're going through something. I said, am I going through something? She says, yes. She says, I heard that your son died. I said, this has nothing to do with my son. It had nothing to do with my son. I said, it's so easy, it's so easy for me to be in this color. It may be easy for you to be in that color, but you can also get into this color that I'm in. And she ended up, I think it was two days after, she put out a memo that we were not

supposed to be called inmates. So they started calling us by misperized or missed this or miss that. And we stopped calling inmate. Wow, they were able to do that. They were able to do that. That's a good warden right there. Yes. I mean, that's like you were talking about how there's good cops and not all, I mean, there's good officers. That's like in society, there's not all police officers are bad. There are bad ones, but there's individuals like that that show us that there's still some decency and humanity with that. What did it take for you to figure and be settled with I'm spending the next nearly a decade in this place? I took it one day at a time, and I always believe that I was not going to spend the 10 years. So every day I live my life. And I live my life,

that the next day I might go home. Just holding on to that home. Just holding on to that. I, you know, wanted to finish up my degree that I had started. So I did that while I was incarcerated. I did. I got involved with the religious department. I was able to reach outside speakers and have them come in.

We did symposium. And, you know, when I said I found favor, I really did because the warden and the religious department, they would allow me to write to whomever I want to write to and invite whomever I wanted to invite. So we did a lot of things. It started the Children's Center in the chapel. So when, you know, parents, their children will come, they would have a place where they can play with their children. We did an outside picnic as well. So, you know, the families couldn't have that day of fun with their children. And it just opened up so many things. And it also showed the staff members there that, you know, these could be, these people that's here, it could be your

mothers, they could be your sisters, they could be your daughters, right? Don't necessarily, don't focus too much on the crime. Just look at the person, humanize that person. And I think that once they start doing that, they kind of let their guards down and started looking at us as human beings in. And they started fighting for us to have more activities at the camp. Are you, like, analyzing these other women you're with and, like, feeling their pain, their suffering? Like, I know I did that a lot in other men because you hear these stories and people come from all over the country and you just, your heart breaks, yeah, because you realize people have even worse situations than you.

Yeah. And, you know, it was almost like the staff members there came across a few of the staff members. And I think they were kind of intimidated by me. And I'm like, okay, they must think that I know someone that I don't know. I was able to go out to Danbury. If I need to go to the doctor, I was able to go out. Yeah, like a camp driver drove you. Yes, you know, not uniform and anything like that. I was able to go home on furloughs. Oh, you were able to get furloughs. I went home on furloughs. I did overnight furloughs. That's great. I was the only one while I was at the camp, I was the only one that was able to do those things. So what's it like to get a furlough from prison? How does that work? It's great.

Yeah. So my family picked me up. The first was a day furlough, went home and just was able to eat every food that I wanted to eat and just making sure that I get back in time, you know, by certain time. It was able to, you know, spend time with my family and friends. And so they can see me in person, actually know that I'm a whole. okay, whatever questions that they have, they can freely, I ask those questions without wondering that, you know, whether someone is going to hear, whatever. And the night, the overnight

furlough was just the best. Is there any thought of running, though? Like, if you're in prison for 10 years and you got halfway through, say, they say, you're allowed to go home for one day, what's that feeling like? Are you thinking like, hey, I got to get out of here, leave the country? No, no, no. I just looked at it as such a privilege, right? Is it heartbrain? to get back to it? No, it wasn't. You know, it really wasn't. I wanted to make sure that I got back and I got back early

because I wanted that I wanted to make sure that others was able to benefit from that. So if I had messed up, then it would mess up for others as well. So I wanted to make sure I do the right thing and I did the right thing, you know, to make sure I get back on time. So they will see that this is a program that can be offered not only to me, but to everyone that's in the camp that's doing great.

You know, allow them to go home and spend time with their children, allow them to go home and spend time with their parents, their spouse, you know, allow them that time. Because if you're in the camp, you can always walk off. You can. And there was a thing that they said that if you're in the camp, they can't shoot at you because you could always walk off. So if you're given that time to go home, make the best use of it,

but do the right thing as well. You can't drink, you can't smoke. No. Are you like having sex hooking up with people? Is that allowed? Oh, no. Well, when I went home, I did have sex. So you didn't have to go to the whole 10 years.

No. So what are you doing? Are you like, are you going out of dating gap? No, but I was married at that time. Oh, you're still. So your husband's still with you. So you're like, oh, I got to get home. Yeah.

That's literally like a fall pass from prison to go have sex and come back. Yes. The only thing is that you better not come back pregnant. That's true. Yes, you better not come back pregnant. So is that like a stipulation that you can't have sex? You cannot have sex. That's what it says on the paper.

Yes, you can't have sex. But they can't test that. You just can't get it. They can't. How are they going to test that you have sex, right? The only way that they'll find out is if you come back pregnant. If you, they find out you pregnant. This is wild.

Yeah. And usually they do a drug test when you come back to make sure that you didn't consume any alcohol or take any drugs. I didn't have to go through that. So, but even if. If I had, it would have came back negative because I don't use drugs and I don't drink, you know, but it was so much fun. I remember, though, the first time going home, I got motion sickness in a car, so they had to pull over.

Yeah, it was felt so sick, yeah. Now, the people that don't get access to furloughs, are they sneaking off at all? Like, I know at the men's camp, guys would sneak off, hook up with their wives. Are girls doing this at the camp? No, they... No one's sneaking off to have sex with the... with the staff member. Is that, you know, that's...

So does that happen to the staff? Oh, absolutely. Yeah. So the staff are hooking up with the women. Absolutely. How does that go down? Night time. Night time.

And where are they going? Like the closet? No, they go in the backyard. They'll go in the kitchen. They go in the chapel, in the classroom. Because, you know, the officers have keys to those areas. So they go there, they hook up, yeah. So it's like orange is a new black.

There you go. This is what? So literally everything that they depicted, and oranges, the new black is pretty much true about this place. Somewhat, yeah, somewhat. Yeah, you had officers that come up to my cubicle and things like that. Are officers hitting on you at all? Of course.

Are you giving them? Did you ever hook up with a guard? No, no. No. No. It wasn't, for me, if you are an officer and you need to be with me, who is incarcerated, that tells me something about you. What's going on on the outside with you? You can't get a woman outside.

You try to hook up with me? So what do you think that is, that why the officer wants to hook up with, is it the same reason why, like, woman like bad boys? Is that that concept, like the guy likes the bad girl? No, I don't necessarily think that. They're risking everything. They're risking everything. But I think that, you know, just having, just going through it, you know, and just sneaking around and doing it, you know, I think for them, that's, you know, it's a turn on, you know, just fun and doing that. but no.

Wow. And I never wanted to. I never wanted to do that. What about cell phones? Yeah, they had cell phones at the camp. How much could you pay to get a cell phone? Well, it's not that you pay. I don't know of any officers bringing in any cell phones.

I'm sure that they do at the FCI. I heard about that. However, because the camp was so laid back, you have your family members bringing the cell phone. They just bring it in. They just bring the cell phone in and you hide it inside the, you know, the visiting room and then someone that you know that's cleaning the visiting room, they will get the cell phone and then they will bring the cell phone to you. But of course,

there's a trade whether it would be money, commissary or whatever, but there's something. Did you ever use a cell phone in prison? No, I never did. You stayed away from it. Stayed away, yeah. That's crazy. Now, we hear all the time in men's prisons about gangs, politics and all that. Is that like that in a woman's prison? I know it's just a camp you're at, but are there politics, are there gangs? No, there wasn't any politics and gangs, but there was a lot of, but there was lot of, you know, lesbian relationship. They had that. Yeah. Let's talk about lesbian relationships. Yeah. How does that, are, these women, they're not gay or they're, they're just, some are and some are not. But the ones that aren't,

maybe they have a husband at home. Yeah. They come into this prison. What happens? How do, how do these form? I think that some of them are formed because of curiosity. Some for commissary reason, right? And just some, you know, I guess, I guess for comfort, you know, people, I'm feeling lonely, and you do have some females that look more masculine or have a dominant behavior, and you just kind of, you know, assimilate to them and just want to have that relationship with them. You have relationships when you hear, you know, someone calling another incarcerated person, or mom or dad or sister or brother. You have, you know, you have all of that.

So it's almost like a family thing there. It's a family dynamics there. And so people do do those things. And they're hooking up. And they're hooking up. Yeah. How do women make like sex toys with commissary items? I don't know how they make it with commissary.

But you see it? But you do see it though. You do see it from, I think it's, they use like the, like, like a, almost, I think it's like a stick or something like that or a foam and they just wrapped it with cloth and then they, you know, put tape over it. Listen, these ladies are creative. You understand me? They are creative, yes. Are there fights over having a girlfriend? Oh, yes. You see girl fights. Oh, yeah. Is it like high school where they're pulling the hair? Pulling the hair, fighting, biting, all different kind of stuff. Yeah. Wow. Throwing hot waters on each other. You know,

they doing all those crazy things. How are the husbands, like when they, what, do you see a lot of drama? Like when the husbands are like, oh, you have, is that cheating basically? Of course. Of course that's cheated. And so here's the thing.

The husband is so funny because you will, you have someone to have a whole lesbian relationship that's going on. And then the husband comes or then the boyfriend comes. And it's like they're not a lesbian anymore. It's like they go into a different role, right? And they are nurturing. they're kissing, they're coddling, they're doing all different kind of stuff. And the minute they walk out, it's almost like they morph into something else and they start a new life.

So, but that's sometimes that's how people survive, you know? Wow. Yeah. That is nuts. But then you also have, you know, relationships that people start getting feelings, right? And then they go and visit also. They start telling the husband, the boyfriend, or telephone calls or letters, you. you know, start going on.

Well, this is what's going on. Yeah, it does happen too. What's the craziest thing you think you've seen at this woman's federal prison camp? The craziest thing. Let me see. There's so many crazy things that's going on there. I think the most craziest thing that I saw

was probably two women having sex. You walked in, huh? I just, it was open. It was open. Where? Like out of the officer came and everything. And they didn't care. They didn't get it.

They're fully blown naked. Yes, and the offices came and it was like, they just look in, they were in shock, and you would think that they would stop. They just continued to just do it, and it was nothing to them. Oh, my God. Because at that point, they knew that, okay, we got, we got caught, and we're going to go to the shoe. So let's finish it. It's so interesting that it's so much more open in a woman's prison than it is in a men. Like, you know gay sex happens in men's prison, whether consensual or not, but it's private.

It's not like just out in the open where like you're, because guys, there's a certain masculine energy people need to follow. Like if you're caught snuggling with a guy under your bunk, like, that's going to be an issue. And I think that lesbian relationship is more acceptable to people than, you know, you have two men that's having a relationship and it's just frowned upon differently. It's really wild. Yeah. Did you have a prison hustle at all?

Like, were you making money at all in prison? No, I could have because I did a lot of administrative remedy for folks there that needed that, and I could have. But money was never my issue, right? You had money. I had that great support system. So that was never my issue. My time was basically to just do my time, do the right thing, and to make sure that the staff members there, you know, respected me. that was more important to me

and didn't want to do anything outside of that because I think that if you get that, if you have that respect, you'll be looked at differently and you'll be treated differently. Wow. This is fascinating to me.

Like, I'm very engaged in this. Like, because I've never, I've always, I think there's a couple parts of this. One, I was literally at that low security prison, always, and I was in the shoe in Danbury, so you'd see the woman's prison camp. What years were you here for? I was there.

from 2012 to 2019. So I was literally in the shoe while you were at that camp. Wow. We were there. And the second part is I was in prison with Joe Giedis, whatever his last name is I would get it wrong. And you were in prison with his wife. Yeah.

So let's get into that aspect. What was it like to be in prison with a celebrity? Who's all over the news? Who's all over the news? Well, Teresa was really down to earth. She didn't come in thinking that she was all that. She was, you know, very, very nice. The only thing you had, you know, other females that was there that would go through her stuff and they probably would have phones and they would take pictures of even her diary and they would sell it to.

TMZ. Yeah. We tried to do that with George Papadopoulos. Yeah, yeah. And they made money on that. And for me, that was very, I didn't like that because she had kids. you know and probably if she didn't have kids i probably wouldn't felt anyway but i always think about the kids and how that would affect them and not wanting them to see their mother like that so that was

but people didn't care they just wanted you know they wanted to make money and and they did but um she did a lot of yoga she did a lot of exercise now Lauren she came in and then she was different um you know same thing with the pictures but I think that they looked at her a little bit differently. She did a concert for us. She's skinny, but she can eat. You know, she loves to eat, but she was really, really down to earth as well. Wow.

Yeah. I think our viewers are going to be fascinated with, because we hear about, like, how these women are in prison, and it's like such a fascinating subject, and people are going to be interesting to hear from someone that was actually in prison with these individuals. Did any of them have lesbian relationships? No, they didn't. As a matter of fact, I was teaching. teaching, I used to teach a Bible study class.

Teresa came to the Bible study class when Lauren was there. I had a going away party for her as well. So because they were really and truly down to earth. They did their time, you know. They didn't come in acting like they were better than everyone else that was there. And I think that made a difference, you know, with their normal people. They're normal, yes. and they shared, you know, stories about their children, you know, their life and things like that.

So they didn't come in all puffed up and think that they were all that now. But the guards are treating them differently in some regards? In some regards, yes. Because of their status, yes. When they got there, I'm sure the warden was there, did all this. Yes, and they just wanted to make sure that they were okay, that the room that they were in, that there wouldn't be any problems because that would also make the, you know, the prison look bad, you know. because then there's much more publicity

and they don't want it to bring any more publicity to the prison itself. So yes, they was treated. How does it feel to see people coming into the prison that came in after you and they're leaving before you? That was hurtful. At one point, I was the longest female in the camp, the longest time.

I was the longest time. And that was really related. For a crime that no one got hurt for. Yeah, that was really. And also seeing people that had the same crime as me coming in with a year and a day, right? Because they didn't go to trial. And I went to trial and got 10 years. So that was really, really hard. After you lost your appeals, what kept you going? Like what gave you that hope to fight every day to make it out of there?

You know, after I lost my appeal, we did, I did the appeal and then I did the, it was, in the fact, counseling, I did that, and all those things kind of dragged on. So it dragged on almost to when I was at the last two years. And when I was at the last two years, I'm like, you know what, forget it. It's done and over. But thinking back, even though that gave me hope, I thought about all that money that, you know, my family put out on these attorneys. And they, these attorneys need to be in prison. I will say that because they give false hope and they charge and

especially, you know, they look at people who are going through a difficult time because their family's in prison. They will do anything to get their family out so they charge them all this money knowing that they cannot produce right? What they said

that they're going to do and then once you pay out and you don't have anything to show for it you know, all this money, my family paid almost, I think it was over 300,000, and I was still incarcerated. You know, think about what I could have done with that money when I came home, what they could have done with that money as well. Yeah. Did, when you came out eventually, what you said, 2019, I came home on March of 2019. Do you feel like you came out a bitter person? No, I wasn't bitter. I think I came out better. You came out better? I came out better. I came out

better. I was telling my friend David that, you know, I had a better relationship with God, right? And I learned, so I learned more about clover and what I like and what I didn't like, you know, and just to stand in my truth, right, and not to really do anything to get me in trouble. So everything that I do, I make sure, you know, it's correct. All the eyes are dotted, all the T's across. However, I don't trust as much as I should. You know, I struggle with that. Trust issue. Something like this changes a person forever. I think anyone that goes away for any period of time, it changes you. Yes, it does. And a lot of people don't comprehend that, but it can change you for the better. If you harbor that and use it, I mean, that's my whole message, using it as fuel

to your fire. What was some of the hardest challenges you had, aside from the trust? thing you were mentioning to reintegrate with your son. You missed a big part of his life with your mother. Yeah. So my mom and my son, they visited me quite often. I think the hardest part coming home was realizing that my oldest son is no longer with me, you know, and that I had to live my life without him. That was one of the hardest. Because, sometimes walking through the house, and I would call Dominique, and I would say, Andre, you know, and I said, oh, my God, Andre is not here. He's no longer here. So that was very difficult for me. You know, I've heard a lot of people saying that, you know, these are different struggles that they went through when they came home.

I did not have those struggles. I always had a good support system before going to prison, doing my incarceration, and when I came home. So I always, I say that success met me the minute I took off those prison clothes and I actually just walk right back into my life, even though it was different and I was different, but it was just a brand new me. Yeah. Yeah.

And it was such a, I love who I am now than when I went into prison. And you had a stable environment to go back to, Like you had your home still? I had my home, yes. You had everything. Everything was there. No husband, though. No husband.

And it was fine. Okay. Yeah. So did you go, how old are you when you're out? I came out when I was 50 years old. 50 years old. So you pretty much lost all of your 40s. Yes.

Do you go through like that? Like I know when I got out, I went through that phase of like dating and like the hookup culture and everything like that. Being 50 years old, do you go through that too? No. So when I came home, I just did not want. to be with anyone. I just wanted, I felt like I had lost so much and I hit the ground running. I just wanted to get back, bring some type of semblance to my life and just to build, you know, that was my

point of build. I said, okay, now at 50, you know, I should be in a process of retiring, right? and it's almost like I'm starting over. So I had to just start building, and that's what I did. I just, you know, what was your plan? Well, I never had, one thing I would say is this, I never had, I never thought about that it was going to be difficult for me to find a job when I came home. I never thought about that because I always knew that I wanted to work for myself, you know? but when I came home, I was able to get a job because I was in a halfway house and that's a requirement that you had to get a job.

So the first job was a 3-1-1 operator and that lasted for probably about three to four months. And then I got a job at a law firm as an office manager making $60,000 and did that until COVID hit. And once COVID hit, you know, I was laid off and within, And that time, I started building my ministry. And in 2021, I just went out and got to office and just started my thing. What was it like to be a woman with a felony? Was there challenges with that? No, there wasn't because I made up my mind that I was not going to let my pass dictate

my future and I never looked at myself as a woman that had a felony record. I always looked at myself as clover, right? I never allowed that to be an impediment. I know, I always knew what I wanted and I went out to get it and I didn't want to take, I didn't take no for an answer. And I was always very truthful about my, you know, imprisonment, my, you know, crime. I never shied away from that. However, I always make people know that, you know, we are more, people that have been to prison, everyone has made mistakes, and our mistake does not define who we are. You know, the only difference is that I was caught, but there's no one that can actually say,

that they have not done anything wrong. Absolutely. Now, do you think it's a mindset thing? Like, we hear a lot, there's a lot being pressed out there about, you know, it's so hard for felons to find a job. And I always hear, like, people making comments to me, like when I got out there, like, oh, that's going to be on your record for your whole life. That's going to affect your future. And just like you were saying, I'm very similar in that way where it hasn't affected me because I haven't let it affect me. People have looked at me differently, but, but I've always pushed past that. So do you think deep down, like, you know, it's a mindset factor.

And we as humans could push through that if you have that ability. Absolutely. And, you know, I have never been even looked at a person that have a family. The only thing that says, I cannot believe that you have been to prison. And I'm like, what is that look? How does that look like? You know? So when you say that I have, you know, you.

don't look like someone who have been to prison. Define to me how a person that have been to prison should look. And what I'm hearing is the same thing that I thought, you know, their reference point is from media, right? But we have to, you know, stray away from that and understand that because how media is set up is set up so it can entice you, it can draw you in. and they're never going to show the good parts. It's always the bad parts.

Now, yes, there are parts that people do do bad things, right? But not everyone. You cannot allow someone else's situation to define you. I'm different. My crime is different, right? My situation that led to my crime is different. So I just encourage people to look at that part of it instead of just looking at the crime itself.

And everyone does bad shit. There's not one person listening to this or in the world that has ever, everyone's committed a crime at some point. Yeah. Everyone. Everyone. It's just a question of whether or not they got caught for it. Right.

Right. So that's like, I hate when people go and bash someone else like for something because your shit stinks too. Right. Right. Shit happens. And I would say to people, tell me you didn't lie on your income tax, right? You know you did.

Tell me we went to the store. You got extra change and you didn't keep it in your pocket. So please. Do not judge me. It's like it's funny and I've been thinking about it recently. Like I think about in my case how many people gave me cash. They weren't reporting that. Like they invested cash.

You have grown adults giving me $50,000. I guarantee you that that was cash that they got illegally. Illegally. Yeah. Absolutely. But they're the first people to throw me under the bus or throw individuals like yourself under the bus. It happens where humans, we make mistakes. It's about learning from it and getting yourself back up and continuing on.

That's what it's all about. Right. Absolutely. Now, if you could go back in time to the day you made that conscious decision to push through those papers, would you change it? Would you go back and do that? Knowing everything you know now, knowing the person it was able to create, would you not do that? I think I would have done it differently.

You know, I'm the type of person. I love to help people. And especially when I see situations that don't have to be and it can be changed and no one is willing to do that. So, but would I have sent those paperwork into immigration? No, I would not. I probably, I would have said, well, you know what, let's try to see if we can figure out another way, another program that you may be entitled to. but putting myself and my family in that situation that took 10 years away from my life, no, I would not do that.

Yeah. Now, what is your message? Like, what do you want, if someone sat here and listens to this whole interview, what's the biggest thing you want them to take away from your story? And what is your purpose? I would want people to understand that. again, we all make mistakes and that instead of focusing so much on the crime, look at the individual, find out what may have led that person to commit that crime, you know, offer

restorative justice, right? Give people that have been incarcerated a help in hand, you know, pull them out of the situation, be like midwives and pull. pull them through because there are many people that may not have a family member that welcome them back home like you do and like I do, right? And they're struggling, right? Find ways to help them. Do not be like a person that always doling out judgment, judgment, judgment. Think about whether it could be your mother, your child, you know, your husband, your wife. just humanize that person because we all are human beings and as humans being we are going to make mistakes and give us a pass okay. We offer forgiveness, show empathy, give us a second chance.

So that's all we're asking for is a second chance and not to be treated like a second class citizen because we're not, we're citizens and we should not be begging for these rights. These rights are, we are deserving, you know, just like you made a, you commit a crime, but nobody knows, but you know, but you feel like you are deserving and I'm not deserving. Don't treat me like that. And picture yourself in the other person's shoes. Sometimes you have to bring yourself back. Like I always think like about how my actions or feelings, like I'm very more self-aware now

than ever just thinking like, okay, if I say this to someone and you have to be selfish in your own ways when it comes to certain things. But, you know, if I tell someone this, how are they going to feel? How is that going to affect them? So, you know, take a step and step a second and think like the walk a mile in their shoes. Like this week is a great example. Everyone's going on about the submarine that whole incident. And it's like those are lives. Those are people's lives. Those people struggled and whether they suffered or not in the accident for people to go out there in the world and bash it. like that could never have happened to them. It very well could have.

It could have happened to them. And it doesn't have to be a submarine. It could be a bus. It could be a train. Anything. So people just need to think about it and be aware of that. But I think that as human beings, what we do lack is we lack compassion. We always want compassion for ourselves, but we don't want to give it to others.

We want forgiveness for ourselves, but we don't want to offer forgiveness to others. And those are things, those are ingredients that, we need to have in our lives. We need to be able to look at a person and say, that could have been me, okay? What can I do to help you? You know? And I'm sorry that you went through this.

I can't change it. But I'm in a position to help you. And even if you're not in that position to help the person, just a kind word is enough sometimes. Sometimes that's all a person need. It's just, you know, I'm glad that you're home. I'm glad that you're okay. Yeah.

That's all. Now, another amazing thing, you've been able to accomplish after prison is you got into one of the top universities in the country and you got your doctorate, right? Yeah, I got my doctorate in philosophy. That is so exciting. Thank you. And are you using that, like, actively with your career?

No, I'm not. I'm in the process of doing that with a university in Washington State. And I'm looking forward to doing, you know, to work in with students where I can share. share my life experience, especially students that are studying to be attorneys to make sure that they have more empathy, to make sure that they humanize a person that is standing before them. And also to let them know that, you know, things happen. Again, we all make mistakes and to make sure that you treat people with dignity. Absolutely. What's the like the next five years look like for you?

Have you thought about that? Yeah. Well, in the next five years, I would love to be able to work to change a particular policy that I know that kept a lot of people in prison. If they have probation, then that's points that stack to their time for white-collar crime. if they had committed previous crimes, those are points that's added to their. So that's something that I want to work on to change, because I think that if someone did their time before for a previous crime, there shouldn't be points that's added that now they're spending a longer time in prison.

So that's something that I want to work on. I also want my ministry to be in a position to be able to help more women and girls and hopefully probably to expand our service to to include men as well. And I just see greatness in the work that I do. Would I have chosen this work? And I always tell people, no, I would not. But God allow me to go through that situation

to make sure that when I'm doing this work, I'm approaching it with compassion. I am approaching it with empathy and not being in a place where I'm judging someone and I can help them because I have lived that experience. Well said, Dr. Perez, thank you so, so much for coming on the show. This has been one of my favorite interviews. I think the audience is really going to love this. You have an amazing story.

You've been able to create this amazing life. And you're just like such a humble, like energetic throughout everything, throughout like the system. and the audience is going to have their own takeaways from it. But throughout everything you've been through in life, to be able to be so upbeat and motivational and not give up, that's going to touch a lot of people. And I'm just grateful you came here to share your story, give us like this exclusive in-depth interview,

and not be afraid to get into some of those details. So thank you, and we really wish you the best in life. And thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. This is really awesome. And now I'm going to leave you with this word, okay? And yet I will continue to rise. I love it.

I love it. That's like a Lewis L. Reed quote to. Awesome. Thank you.