Locked In with Ian Bick - How I Survived 15+ Years in Michigan State Prisons | Sonny Von Cleveland

Episode Date: January 27, 2026

Sonny Von Cleveland opens up about serving nearly two decades in prison and the harsh realities of being young, white, and unprepared for prison life. Pulled into violence and survival politics at an early age, Sonny breaks down what it really takes to make it through long prison sentences, the fear, the mistakes, and the lessons learned the hard way behind bars. He speaks candidly about navigating race, identity, and power inside prison, how incarceration forced him to confront his past, and the mindset shift that ultimately saved his life. Today, Sonny has transformed his story into purpose as a speaker, mentor, and community leader, proving that even the darkest chapters don’t have to define how the story ends. _____________________________________________ #PrisonSurvival #MichiganPrison #PrisonLife #TrueCrime #LifeInPrison #PrisonStories #SurvivingPrison #incarceration _____________________________________________ Connect with Sonny Von Cleveland: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sonnyvonclevelandofficial/ Website: https://www.sonnyvoncleveland.com/ _____________________________________________ Hosted, Executive Produced & Edited By Ian Bick: https://www.instagram.com/ian_bick/?hl=en https://ianbick.com/ _____________________________________________ Shop Locked In Merch: http://www.ianbick.com/shop _____________________________________________ Timestamps: 00:00 First Days in Prison: Shock, Fear, and Survival 02:00 Growing Up in the Midwest Before Prison 06:40 Family Trauma, Abuse, and a Broken Childhood 12:00 Surviving Abuse and Learning to Cope 17:00 Running Away, Street Life, and Early Crime 21:00 The Road to Prison: Charges, Conviction, and Sentencing 24:40 Entering Adult Prison for the First Time 26:00 Prison Violence, Gangs, and Losing Innocence 31:30 Regret, Lost Youth, and Missed Chances 35:40 Solitary Confinement, System Failures, and Mental Survival 41:00 Release, Reoffending, and a Second Prison Sentence 46:00 Life After Release: Family Conflict, Crime, and Betrayal 52:00 Solitary Confinement, Transformation, and Forgiveness 59:00 Self-Reflection, Growth, and Mental Survival in Prison 01:03:00 Teaching Others, Service, and Finding Purpose Behind Bars 01:09:00 Leaving Gang Life and Choosing a Different Path 01:14:00 Reentry After Prison: Starting Over From Nothing 01:19:00 Using His Story to Help Others Avoid Prison 01:22:00 Final Advice, Redemption, and Life’s True Purpose Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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So keep it real. Look for the seal. Real California milk. It was the first week I was in prison by two guys. What do you think 10-year-old Sonny would have thought of you in that moment? You gotta imagine. I'm this skinny white kid with long hair from the country. And you send me to prison, and it's all these black guys and Mexicans from Detroit, Grand Rapids, Lansing, all the big city.

I've never seen this in my life. Absolute shock to me. And what part in your mind would you ever be like, I want to go back or do anything? to go back. And it was a war zone from that moment forward. Within 30 days of this facility being open, it was the most violent prison in Michigan, the most stabbings, rape, assaults, assaults, on staffs. What was it like getting out of protective custody and going back to general population and facing your gang head on? Sunny Vaughn Cleveland spent nearly two decades in prison after going in young, white, and unprepared for the reality of prison life. In this episode,

he breaks down the fear, the violence, the racial politics, and the mindset it took to survive, and how that experience ultimately changed his life. Sunny, welcome to Lockton. Thanks so much for coming out here today with Jim and Bear in the Cold right before major snowstorm in Connecticut. It's been snowing nonstop, but thanks for coming, man. Dude, thank you so much for having me.

You know, I'm a Midwest guy. I was born and raised in the Midwest, and I moved to California five years ago and kind of thawed out. And I come back, it's like, holy crap. What do you think is worse? L.A. traffic the cold here.

LA traffic. There's not many things. You know, I just recently did a two-month tour around the United States. I drove me and my dog to do a documentary about pain and trauma. And I've come to learn Chicago is the absolute worst in traffic. New York is second. LA's third. I never thought that I would see worse traffic than L.A.

Chicago and New York have, they, so bad. But L.A. is a different type of traffic than New York. New York, like your close proximity. L.A., you're just sitting there for miles and miles and hours. It's, yeah, you can actually do something. And people in Chicago in L.A. I think drive better than L.A. And L.A. is just, it's nuts because we also have lane splitting.

So you have a random motorcycle every once in a while. Zips up and it's like, oh, crap. Crazy. So tell everyone about the book, man, that you just gave me a copy. I love when the guests give me a copy. We have a nice little display out there with all the books. Yeah, this is the story of my life, man.

It's called, Hey, White Boy. boy. It is entitled after my mentor, who was a MoBite, Muslim man, when I was in solitary confinement in prison, I was sentenced to five years in solitary confinement. And he was across the hall for me. So at the cell blocks are, as you I'm sure are aware, are designed in bow ties. So they have an upper rock and a lower rock and in hallways. And we were at the very end. I was in cell 214. He was in 215. And we're at the very end of the hallway. And we were all we had because we have the utility closet is next to it. And we were the only two down at the end of the hallway. And as soon as I got in there, hey, white boy, come talk to me. And I would just cuss him out. Fuck you, man. Don't.

Hey, white boy, hey white boy, for literally for like a week. And I went down and I got sentenced to the five years in the hole. And I broke down when I came back and he said, what do you want, dude? He's like, why are you so angry? That's what you've been annoying me for a week for? Like, what are you? A psychologist? Like, because I'm in prison, my life sucks.

You won't shut up. I'm in the hole. There's a lot of reasons I'm angry. And he said, no, man, that's why you're mad. And mad is a surface emotion. It's temporary. Anger is something much deeper. It cuts to your soul.

And you are a very angry young man. I'm like, wow. Oh, Suddy, you forgot to put off the phone. I forgot to shut the phone. We're going to need another rubber band for phone use. That's funny because it's on Do Not Disturb. So we're going to go into airplane mode. So he said, let me just make sure that one's off too.

Yeah. He said, why he's so angry? And, you know, I get that response. And then afterwards, I'm just like, shut up, man. So I continue to pace myself. And I'm wondering, like, why am I so angry? Because I'm a very angry person. And I realized that, I recognize that in that moment.

Like, I'm so angry. I'm angry all the time. I just walk around in this very angry state. And, you know, I come to the realization, like, I've been a victim my whole life, right? From the time I was three until I was 12 years old, I've been raped by seven different dudes my whole life, three, four times. And, you know, my first week in prison, I was raped by two dudes at knife point. And, you know, I was a convicted felon at age seven. And I've been in trouble nonstop.

throughout my whole life, and I've been a victim my whole life. That's why I'm so angry. And when I decided to break down and tell him about my life, he changed me, right? He gave me this, this perspective that I had never known before of kindness and love and forgiveness and compassion. And this is coming from somebody who normally on the yard, we're all separated by organizations. Michigan is much different than most of the other states. Most other states, it's by race. You go in the white guys with the white guys, blacks with the blacks, Browns with the Browns. Michigan is about gangs.

It's about what organization you belong to. There's not much, there's some racism, but it's mostly organizations. And we are on opposing sides. And so the fact that this guy is taking the time to even, to want to, to help me figure out why I'm so angry, it just, I don't know, it resonated with me really hard. And he sent me a book over by, Victor Frankel called Man Search for Meaning. And the book literally changed my life.

Like, I started this path of, I don't feel worthy of forgiveness for what I've done to other people. But at the same time, I'm not willing to forgive other people that have done wrong to me. And that's the light bulb. That's the reason why I don't feel worthy of forgiveness is I don't forgive the people that have done things to me. And I don't forgive myself. I don't feel worthy of that forgiveness. this. And going through this, it really changed my perspective. So you said you grew up in the Midwest. Whereabouts? Michigan. Right here in this little, right in the dead center of Michigan,

almost in lower Michigan. It's a town called Carson City. It's actually a conglomerative towns. It's called Carson City Crystal. And then there's Stanton and Edmore and all these other little towns that, you know, make up a normal city block. But in my town, it's, it's, it's a several different towns, right? So it's very small, one-horse town. You know, we've got a grocery store and a gas station and a bar, two bars. Did you have any siblings? I do. I have a 19-month-old, a brother who's 19 months older than I am, and that was, that's a story in and of itself there, right? And that's it, just a brother? Yep, just one brother. Well, I have some half-brothers from my father's side. My father laid seed all across the world,

I guess. And so I have half brothers and half sisters that I don't know. But yeah. Were your parents together when you were born? They were not. Well, apparently it was a few months after I was born at my dad left. So he was there for the 19 months that my brother was born. And then very shortly after I was.

So my brother has my mother's last name and I have my father's last name. Apparently my mother was really, it's crazy because after my book came out and I started becoming more and more public about my life. I'm learning more and more about my life. And so I met my father last year for the first time. I mean, I saw him three times, I think, before I went to prison. I saw him once when I was seven, like once when I was 10, once when I was like 13. But I recently, he lives in Okachobee, Florida, and I went down there.

I was doing an OLS event in Jacksonville, and I went down to Okachobee and met my father. We went and rode Harleys together and went and had a drink. And then I started to really learn about my mother and like what really took place. You know, there's always two sides to every story, right? And then I learned my father's side of the story. And it's not what my mother told me, right? How old were you when you realized your dad wasn't in the picture? I mean, he's never been there.

So the man that I call my dad was a man named Al Bauer, a big trucker did, who drank himself to death. And he was the guy that I called my dad. But I, I've always known my whole life that I didn't have a father. Even just as a child, they kind of just. Yeah, just always kind of. My mom always had a bunch of boyfriends that would come in and out of the picture. And Al Bauer was like the most consistent. He was there for like maybe three years, four years that they were together.

And so he was dad. Would you compare yourself to other kids, say, in school or your friends? who had, say, to a mom and dad together? You know, I remember seeing them and wishing that I had something like that, like a family structure. Like, they were having Christmases. I never really had a Christmas and birthdays or holidays. And I remember, you know, seeing kids' dads at things.

One of my best friends is a kid who's named Brian Cook. And his family owned a restaurant. And I remember his dad was at everything. And I remember, you know, I wish I would have had a dad. dad that would have been there. Like that would have been would have been cool. But going through my life, I, my father is one of the most important people in my life. And it's not because you were there. It's because you weren't there. Like you, you showed me how the kind of father I don't want to be, right? And, and I realized how difficult it is as a father myself. I have three kids. And,

they're all in different areas of the country. And I realize how difficult it is to be. And I realize how difficult it is to be a father that's very present when you have multiple children in multiple areas. And I just, it was something that I never really held against him. I was never bitter or angry that I didn't have a dad. I just always was like, I'm never going to be like that. Would your mom do for work? Yeah, well, primarily she was a weed dealer. That was her main source of income.

But she, she was a RPS driver for, it's like UPS, but there's another company. called RPS and comes to find out that it was kind of a front. So my mother would leave at like six o'clock in the morning and would come home at nine o'clock at night. And let me believe that I've been working all day, right? So I work so hard for you to make sure you have a good life. And turns out that's not really, you know, like you went to work at like 10 o'clock and clock down at like two o'clock.

So you worked part time as an RPS driver. and the rest of the time you're out making drug deals and hustling and would come home late at night. USAA knows dynamic duos can save the day, like superheroes and sidekicks or auto and home insurance. With USAA, you can bundle your auto and home and save up to 10%. Tap the banner to learn more and get a quote at usa.com slash bundle. Restrictions apply.

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No, nobody. Since we were probably 10 years old, was on my own. Like, my mom would just go to work. and it was just me and my brother. My brother got taken away when I was 12. He got sent to, we stole my mother's car and went to Chicago and got arrested like as soon as we got to Chicago.

And that was the last time I saw my brother until I was 21. Were you guys trying to run away from your house? Yeah. We just, we, and I did, I have been abused so much that when my brother, I don't really know my brother's story or why he wanted to run away so much, but he just can't do it anymore. Let's just go. I'll take care of you and we stole my mom.

It was an 86 Ford Escort. It was a stick shift. And we stole it in which, and I was just like, yeah, I want to get out of here too. Like, I'm not safe. I'm not protected. I'm being abused all the time. I just, I want to leave. And it lasted all of two days.

Who was abusing you, your mom or? No. So it was a couple of my mom's boyfriends, a couple of her family friends. And my uncle, my uncle was my primary abuser from the time I was three until I was 10. He went to prison. But then Tim Klinger, Daryl Hall, Robbie Wheeler, an old man that I don't even remember his name. And they were all like friends of my mom's family, a couple of her boyfriends. Would you confide in your brother with this?

No, no. In fact, I didn't even realize that my brother had been abused as well by my uncle until, you know, I was, I got out of prison when I was 21 the first time. And I think my mom confided in us in that and told us that. And yeah, I had no idea. Did you ever try to talk to your mom about it? I've got this soft spot for my mother. And it's only recently that I've kind of cut it off. I've learned in my life how to create boundaries,

which have always been a really hard thing for me. Like I was always a very compassionate kid. And I never wanted, I don't like it when people are sad or people are hurt or people, people feel less than or not seen. And so when it comes to my mother, I'm always have just been really forgiving. You know, a lot of people are like, how do you even talk to your mother? Well, I mean, she's a human. She didn't know.

It turns out she did know. But anytime I would approach the conversation, my mother is this very narcissistic gaslighter. Right. So whenever we bring it up, it's immediately, whenever I would try to have the conversation. And I remember when I first got out of prison, I tried to have the conversation when I used Ozzy's song, My Mom Coming Home. I was like, I need you to listen to this

and understand that this is how I'm feeling. And immediately it was like, well, I was abused. I was raped. I was this. I was that. I did the best I could. You guys were bad kids and I had to shift everything in my life. And so it was literally just gaslighting

and blaming the children for existing were the reason that you didn't have the successful life that you wish you would have had. And so there's really no having the conversation with her. When you try to initiate the conversation, it just turns into gaslighting and shifting off the blame. Did you feel that you deserve the blame at the time, personally? Absolutely. I felt like the worst form of human being. I felt there's something wrong with me. If all these men are abusing me, I'm doing something that's attracting this. And so it must be my

fault. It's something I'm doing. I've ruined my mother's life. My mother wanted to go to college and and be a businesswoman and I stopped that. And so I deserve all of this, this pain that I'm getting. I must deserve this because I've ruined everybody's lives around me because I spoke up and said something when I was 10. And I should have just stayed silent, right? And that was, that was my mindset for a lot of my life was to just endure the pain and be quiet, keep it locked in, which made me a target. for every bully going, right? I had horrible hygiene because I thought if I don't shower and I stink, people will leave me alone.

They'll stay away for me. And that doesn't work. Apparently pedophiles don't care about that. But school kids, it's a magnet for them. And so I was bullied horribly going through elementary school, middle school. It was just a really bad time for me. And when the police removed your brother, did you think about telling them what was going on? at home? They already knew. They knew at that point. So at 10 years old, I told on my uncle,

and that's when my mother, it's just so crazy. It isn't even in the book. I thought it started when I was five. And then when the book went to press, I called my mother just to verify a date. And she said, it started when you were three from your uncle. And we knew about it because your brother said something. And you told them, well, that's happening to me too. And their answer to that, my grandparents and my mother's answer was, we're going to get him mental health counseling, and then you're not allowed to go upstairs because his room was, his bedroom was upstairs. And that was their answer to that. And so, I don't know why I went back to the house. Like, why would you take me back to the house, period? But that enabled him to

be able to abuse me all the way until I was 10 years old. And, and I remember Al Bauer was there, and I had broke down, there was a drive-by in my house, which is just weird. And I got shot in the back, some of the shrapnel from the buck shot from the 12 gauge. It hit the house and the shrapnel got me in the back. And it was in that moment that I broke down and I don't even know why that correlated to that, but it did. And I told my mother and she finally called the cops. And then my uncle was arrested. We had to go through a trial and he was convicted and sent to prison for 15 years.

When you reconnected with your dad and he found out about this, did he feel guilt? No. my father is it's really weird because I kind of related it kind of showed me where I got it like most of my life I've just been an empty vessel right like I don't feel right they don't there just came a point in my life where I just shut off emotion I don't feel sadness I don't feel remorse I don't feel pain I don't feel guilt I don't feel shame and then when I was talking to my father about that he still lives that to this day He doesn't, he does what he wants, when he wants. He doesn't feel guilt. He doesn't feel shame. And so finding out about this, and I thought that this was a real breakthrough moment. Like, dude, your kid has been abused most of his life.

And it was just nothing. It was, well, that sucks. It's like, well, yeah, I guess that's true. It does suck. And, yeah, it's kind of very empty, right? Did you have dreams or goals when you were in high school for the future? Not that I recall. I literally was a child that was existing day to day.

Like, I didn't have an idea. Like, most kids have an idea of what they want to be when they grow up. I literally was just trying to get out of that situation and just live a normal life. And I didn't even know what a normal life was. So I didn't have aspirations. Like, what do you want to do when you grow up? What do you want to be? Nothing like that.

For me, it was just get through the fucking day and wake up tomorrow, right? Where do you think you turned your pain towards? Did you use it for something positive? Or do you think it started to bring you down a negative path? It was the whole. It was Mallory Bay that showed me that you can do that. Like, I didn't even realize that was a thing. I didn't, again, I didn't think that I was worthy of anything.

I didn't think I was worthy of love. attention, affection. I didn't think I was worthy of it. So I just continued to cause pain to the world. But I realized as I was going through this metamorphosis of understanding what forgiveness is and what compassion is and what worthiness is, I'm realizing that so many people endure the same thing and worse than what I've endured in my life. And they probably feel the same way that I felt. And if I am able to take this and make this turnaround in my life, that maybe I'll inspire somebody else to know that they can do it too, that they're not alone and that they have the ability and the worthiness of being accepted and loved and forgiven.

And that was when I really believed that I could make a difference. And so I just dove myself headfirst into service of people. So do you end up graduating high school? No, I went to prison in 10th grade. That was when you started your long sentence? No, so I did two sentences. I went in at 16 and I got five and a half years. I got out when I was 21 and I was out for 20 months and went back when I was 23 for 12 more years.

What did you get arrested for when you were 16? So it's funny if you look back at it. I had had 12 felonies on my record by then. So I was arrested at seven years old for breaking into a church. in charge with a felony in 1988. And what they sent me to prison for was a buddy of mine named Tim. We were getting stoned and drinking out in the country of Michigan, the middle of nowhere, by the prison, ironically.

And it was the middle of the night, and we came across this trailer that didn't look like anybody was home. And there were a bunch of pedal bikes in the front yard. So we're like, let's go in and get some water. And then we're going to grab up some pedal bikes. and we're going to head into town. So we tip, and the door was open. So we went in, got some cups of water, and we left.

Turns out there was a lady sleeping in the back. She was home and she was sleeping, and she hurt us in there, and she was terrified, so she didn't do anything. So we came outside, we stole a couple pedal bikes out of the yard and drove them into town. And when we got into town, we started breaking into cars that were in the parking lot of a hospital,

just, you know, finding loose change in cigarettes. And one of the cars had a cell phone that my buddy found. So then we go to the gas station and I've got the phone and I'm playing on it. But this cell, and I mean, this is 1997. So you, this is an old Motorola flip phone. So I'm calling the Nintendo hotline to get Nintendo tips for my Nintendo. And cops pull into the gas station.

And so I put the phone in my pocket and they come over like, come here. We've got a report of two men or two young males that are riding bikes, stealing things out of cars. Is that you? I was like, no, not at all. Matter of fact, I saw two guys riding a bike down that way by the hospital. And I'm pointing off this way and I grab the phone and I drop it out of my pocket like an idiot.

And the cop clearly sees that. Turns me around, cuffs me up. And for that, I got charged with possession of stolen property over $100 for that cell phone. Larsonie over $100 for the pedal bike because knew at retail that bike was more than $100. bucks, larceny from a building for stealing the water out of the house and home invasion first degree because somebody was home. They arrested us, took us down to jail. I'm 15 years old. I go in the jail and they put us in the drunk tank separately and I'm sitting in the drunk for hours in this drunk tank and I'm bored and I'm chipping my name in the wall because I see it.

It's all over. So I'm chipping my name in the wall. They come in and they charged me with destruction estate property over $100 because the labor to repaint the cell is going to be more, it's a felony. And so when I go in and I see the judge on this, he sends me to prison for those crimes. For five years. For five years. I'm like, I'm 16 years old. This is 15 days after I turned. I turned 16 on July 8th, 1997. This is July 25th, 97. And he sent, he gave me six months in the county jail because I stole $2,000 out of the safe in the high school for a drug class. And he sends me, he says, I'm giving you 24 to 60 months in the Michigan Department of Corrections. And I didn't even know what that meant.

This is how ignorant I am to being, I've never been taken away. I've always just given probation. And I looked at my lawyer and I'm like, what does that mean? He's like, he just sent you to prison. I'm like, prison, prison, prison? He's like, yeah, I'm like, Shawshank type redemption prison? Yeah, I'm like, wow. Really? Like, what is it? And yeah, so they took me back to the county jail. Two weeks later, I'm on a silver bullet to quarantine in Ionia, Michigan.

So straight to adult prison? Straight. Well, so they separate them. In Michigan, they used to. They had Jackson quarantine was for adults. And I own your quarantine was for people that were 20 and under. And I was 16. So I went to, I went there. And it's all ran by level four inmates. When you go to. there. It's all the old heads that are up there. They come down and they do your orientation. They teach you about prison. So the level four inmates are interacting with everybody. And you got to imagine, I'm this skinny white kid with long hair from the country. And you send me to prison. And it's all these black guys and Mexicans from Detroit, Grand Rapids, Lansing, all the big city. I've never seen this in my life. Absolute shock to me. And I'm still. Turns out I could have went to boot camp.

Nobody ever told me. In lieu of going to do that time, I could have went in here and signed up for SAI boot camp, went to the 90 days in boot camp. My life might have been completely different. But nobody told me that. And so I'm sent here for nonviolent crimes for two to five years, which I end up doing all five for. Do you think going to prison made the future worse for you in the sense where it was going to set you up for that second sentence? 100%.

I was a very introverted kid, but I was kind. I was compassionate. I never, I mean, I've been in a couple of fights in my life, but nothing. I've never exerted violence. And when they sent me to, I was raped the first week I was in prison by two guys. They, so the cell doors open every 15 minutes. During Chow lines, the doors are automatic. They open every five minutes, the doors open.

Deering Chow so you can go to Chow and you can come back. And my bunky had left and I was tying my shoes and the doors open and these two dudes come running. And I mean, this guy's got a knife that's this massive knife and he's, they grabbed me by my throat and they stick it in my throat. I mean, I still have a scar on my throat from it. And you know what this is, man. If you scream, if you yell, if you fight, you're done. I'm gonna kill you. And I know in the comments,

you're going to get a lot, but I would have rather died. Sure you would have, tough guy. Right. Like all, in that moment, like, what are you going to do? Like, there's nothing you're going to do. And I just remember the door was open and closed three times. And then they took off. And that was my first moment of real violence in my life.

I like, if I don't do something, I'm going to be, this is going to be my entire prison life. I'm going to be somebody's bitch. I'm going to be. this is what's going to happen. So I grabbed up these little segregation pencil. You know the pencils they give you in segregation, these tiny little baskets? The golf ones.

The golf pencils. I grabbed them up. I took my shoe strings out of my little black shoe strings out of my shoe and I wrapped them around and I had like five of them and I went across the hallway when the door opened again and he's standing across the hall and I walked over and I was like, hey, bro, I just want you to know that I'm not going to tell anybody. And he looked at me with this look of, and I just lost it. And I just started stabbing him in the face.

with these pencils. And he went, and you know, these pencils aren't going to do that much damage, right? But there's a lot of blood because it's ripping the, the base layer of your flesh off and there's blood every. And this guy's screaming and I'm just in this state of rage. And then you hear the keys jingling. I got up, darted across. And of course, as soon as you do that, all the inmates basically are building a wall for you

because they're all standing around watching it like, oh. So I was able to slick down, go right back across the hall, back into the cell, I'll pop the shoe and pencils into the sink real quick. Hit the old Igor and the water kicking out and wash all that blood off real quick. Like, I threw the shoestring under the bed and spread the pencils out and I just laid it on my bunk. Like, I mean, my heart's just beaten, shaking. And then you hear the other guy, see, oh, see how.

He's kicking on the door. I need to lock up. I need to lock up. Man, that guy's going to get me too. Look at back and I'm like, you're such a broad. 10 minutes later, they've done carted them both off. And I'm just laying there. My bunkie comes back.

So what the hell was that? None of your business. Just mind your business. And I'm still reeling from like, you guys just violated me in the worst way for 15 minutes. And then this happens. And my brain is just all over the place. My heart's beating. And now I know I'm screwed.

They're going to come and they're going to give me a new case. And I'm just laying there just. And they never came back. back. And then I, you know, count time passes, lights out, and I'm just laying there all night. Like, I just know it. I just know it. Exema is unpredictable. But you can flare less with ebbglis. A once-monthly treatment for moderate to severe eczema. After an initial four-month or longer dosing phase, about four and ten people taking ebb glist achieved itch relief and clear or almost clear skin at 16 weeks.

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when you became someone that, you know, you weren't raised that way? That's not who you are at heart. I think that little boy would have been proud, right? that's the first time I ever stood up for myself in my life. Instead of just, I lived my life in fear as a child, most of it, because I was afraid that somebody's going to get in trouble or somebody's, it was never about me or my pain or what I'm going through or my trauma. I was always worried about somebody else getting in trouble, somebody, my family falling

apart or my family breaking. And I'd always just been a carpet. and just accepted the trauma and the pain that I'd been through in my life. And I think that 10-year-old little boy would have been proud that you finally stood up for yourself and did something, right? Where was your mom throughout that first sentence? She left. Her and her boyfriend moved to South Carolina as soon as I went to prison. She came and saw me after I got sentenced.

She came and visited me in the county jail and said, me in, I forget his name at this point, a little short Irish guy. But we're moving out of state. We're going to go to South Carolina. And that's it. I was by myself on my own the whole time throughout prison. Like I had nobody, nobody to call, nobody to talk to. Like, I have to figure this out on my own. And I got swallowed by gangs really quickly.

I, you know, after that stabbing, like, they didn't see what these guys did to me. They just saw me doing that. So they think that there's this crazy white boy out here to just stab the shit out of these guys. And I'm like, as soon as we went to the next facility, we're on the bus, the guy that I'm riding with, his name's Laylo, he's going to be my bunkey. We got the itinerary on the bus, and we know that we're going to TCF and we're going to be bunkeys. We're in the same cell. And he was in this gang, and he was the one that introduced me to them.

and they're like, yeah, man, we can always use a down-ass soldier to be in the gang. And you've got to put in work, right? You want to be a part of this. Here's a knife. There's the opposition. Go prove yourself. Give me that. It's like, I'll do this in a heartbeat.

What do you mean? This is going to keep me safe. I went over there and I stabbed the crap out of another guy and that was it. That became my life. I immediately got swallowed by it. and it was intoxicating, right? For the first time in my life, these people see me, they validate me.

I'm a part of this organization. We have the cool hand signs and handshakes, and I'm a part of this. And it was just intoxicating for me. And at the same time, I found protection for myself and being violent. If you know that I will stab you, you're not going to mess with me.

So I stabbed everybody, right? That was, that was, my go-to was just like, here, I'm not playing with you. And I fell into that really quickly. So I became a shooter for the gang. And that was my life for five years. What about drugs or alcohol? Were you exposed to that in there? It's never been a thing in my life. I just, I've never, never really had access to it. I mean, I smoked weed as a kid, tried acid a couple times, didn't do anything. Never was exposed to any hard drugs. Going into prison, I heard about it. But it's just,

never never a thing that I was exposed to. Do you ever think about the fact that you missed out on, say, going to proms or graduation, you know, things of that during those five years? Or even while you're living in the moment of that, like you're 17, hey, I could be at prom right now. All the time. All the time. I mean, it's because also there's guys that come into prison all the time, right? And they're 17, 18, 19.

And you hear their stories as, you know, you walk the yard and you're chopping it up with guys and they're talking about oh man you know i went to prom last year and blah blah blah and it's like i've never been to a prom i've never been to dance i've never been to a homecoming i don't know what that's like and of course you you know you want to know and i think the one of the bad things about locking a young person up for so long is that you don't mature at a normal rate right like i'm like a 44 I mean, I'm 44 now, and I'm like a 25-year-old stuck in a 44-year-old's body, right? Like, I don't, I didn't mature at that rate.

And so for me, when you're getting back out, it's like, I'm still interested in the things that I would have been interested in as a kid. Like, I started a rap metal band. I was 37 years old and was touring the country in a rap metal band. Like, who does that in their late 30s? Like, but I guess there's a, you know, a part that's. You didn't get to mature at that rate, right? Where's the support system in there? Counselors, case managers, a kid that young, you know, where is that?

That's a fantastic question, Ian. Would love to know that. How do you see this kid that's going through all this and nobody asks a question? Never once have I been approached by a psychotherapist or somebody in law enforcement or something that was like, something's wrong with this kid. Something's going on. It was never asked, which is why when I met like Jim Cole and these guys, I'm like, I didn't know you existed. Even as I'm 40-some years old, I had no idea that these kind of organizations exist.

And that's where Jim and I connected so hard in the beginning of that first Zoom call was, you guys are the heroes that I needed when I was a kid. I didn't know you guys existed. And how do I look back from it now? I can't look away from it now. Like, I'm fully into this. I mean, the system failed to you. from the start 100%

but what are you going to do with that you also can't look back at it and use it as an excuse to be a piece of shit for the rest of your life right when you were coming to the end of that first sentence what were you thinking of for the future i i didn't i had forgotten that i was about to get out so i have this half dragon tattoo that's on my on my side laid the stencil and i was like well you know you're going to let that heel and then we're going to go into all the shading and they were like all right pack your stuff up you're out tomorrow oh oh crap i forgot oh wow um i'm getting out tomorrow it was friday the 13th december 2002 and so i quickly was able to get on the phone and i don't even remember

why but i had my my mother's phone number and my mother was in michigan staying with my brother and they were like oh we'll be there we'll come get you tomorrow and so And so they came up and they picked me up. It was Friday to 13th, 2002. And they gave me 75 bucks and three condoms and were like, best of luck. I didn't have no parole or nothing. I maxed out the sentence. All because of the different stabbings or anything else you got into it.

Yeah, all the trouble that I was in. So in 97, when I originally got a convicted, they had good time. And in 98, they instituted truth and sentencing. And I actually think now in 99, they instituted truth in sentencing. So there's no more good time. On this one, I still, I had a little bit of good time somehow. I had like seven days left, which is why I got out on December 13th. But I had lost all the good time that I was supposed to get.

I opened the first private facility in the United States in Baldwin. I was on the second ride in in Baldwin, Michigan. It was owned by a company called Wacken Hut. It was the Michigan Youth Correctional Facility in 99. They opened, I think it was August of 99. They opened this facility that was. privately owned and they're sending any inmates in Michigan that are under 20 are going to this facility.

If you're, once you turn 20, you're right out and you go back to the Michigan Department of Corrections. And that was the worst thing they ever could have done. This facility was, it was a war zone from day one. They didn't know what they were doing. The COs are like the girl that worked at Subway who wanted to be a correction officer or guys that couldn't cut it in the military or failed police officers. And these are the COs.

And it was a war zone. Like they were not properly trained. You put us all in there. Like I remember we were there the third day we were in there. We never got yard. So we're all like, and you know inmates, right? Like we're going to kick the doors in. We're going to flood stuff.

We're going to break sprinklers. Like let us out. And they opened everything. They were like, fine, here. And opened up every unit, every cell, every door. It was like, go to yard. and you were surprised that within 30 minutes it was a gang war on the yard. Of course, you can't put all of these young gangbangers out on this yard and expect it to go peacefully.

And it was a war zone from that moment forward. It was just a war within 30 days of this facility being open. It was the most violent prison in Michigan, had the more the most stabbing, rapings, assaults, assaults on staffs. This is all documented. This facility has millions of dollars in lawsuits from this place. They had no idea. The chief, they didn't call him a ward and they called him a chief, was arrested for rape, like three months into this place. Like the guy from Tennessee, this place was a shit show.

Like, I mean, a couple months into it, we realized we could assault staff and you would literally go to the hole for seven days. Right. In state and federal institutions, if you touch a corrections officer, it's a new case. This place, they had no idea. They would write you an assault ticket, give you seven days in a hole and let you out. So we're like, well, that's open season. I mean, we were slapping COs if you looked at us wrong. Like, we were going nuts.

And we're a couple, you know, a month after that, they sent in the cert teams from Virginia, because I guess this is where the place is based out of. And these are the cell extraction response teams that come in, and they're the tough assets. They're the hard ones. And they shut the facilities out. And it was, they like waged war against the inmates. Like, I have been hog tied and chained up in the shower and gassed and beaten and thrown

outside into the dog kennels in the middle of winter in your boxers. And they come and throw buckets of water on you and leave you there for hours. I lost this tooth because a cop came out and asked me if I was alive and I didn't respond. So he kicked me in the face and my tooth. It was bad. It was really, really traumatic. And I was there until I was 20, a couple days before I turned 20. And then they sent me back to the MDOC.

And I went back to the state facility. And they moved me into a cell with Keithon Green, who was one of the founding members of YBI, which is a Detroit street gang in the 70s, who became really famous for putting their logo on their dope sacks. And, I mean, this is Big Meach and Keithon Green. They called him Terrible T. this guy was my bunkey. He honed me in from this hot-headed young gangbanger into like take your time, be smooth,

how to be a smooth gangster, be a smooth criminal. And that's when they let me out. And then I get out into the streets with all that knowledge. I mean, it was a recipe for disaster. No, leaving prison with that trauma from, you know, the first day, getting raped, the assaults, the violence, everything you just described, in what part in your mind would you ever be like,

I want to go back or do anything? to go back. I thought that I was untouchable. I honestly, I thought that I would die in a scarface manner, right? Like, I thought that I, I'm going to eventually end up in a shootout or the cops are going to kill me or something. I'm never going to go back to prison. It just wasn't a thought.

Like, I was like, I'm going to go become the baddest gangster I can be and try to become the next scarface. That was my mindset. I felt like the world had screwed me since day one since I was a kid and the world owes me something. So I'm going to go out here and I can do whatever I want to anybody. I used to call myself karma's enforcer, right? I used to say karma fuck me first, right? Because tell me why as a six-year-old I'm being raped by dudes.

Like what did the six-year-old ever do to the world to deserve that? So karma must have screwed me first so that now as an adult, and a grown man with no fear, no conscience, I am what karma sends to you when you've done something wrong and it has to tip the scales. I'm what karma uses to do that. And I use that to justify my behavior, to rob people, to break into things, to steal things, to hurt people.

That was my justification. I was able to sleep at night because I'm like, yeah, well, karma's just using me. That's how screwed up my brain was. Like I had no, fear of going back to prison. Like, well, if it's going to happen, it's going to happen. But it's not.

I'm going to die in a gangfighter, a shootout or something, right? So what did you get into when you got released? I got into robbing drug dealers. I was like, this is, what are you going to do? Call the cops? Turns out it's illegal. You can't rob drug dealers. I'm like, really?

Yeah. And when I, I would take the drugs that we found, and I'm like, I'm not a drug dealer. I'm not a drug user. I don't know what to do with this stuff. Let's take it to Mexico. Like my mom lived in Arizona at the time. She lived in Tucson.

So I'm like, let's go down to see my mom. Somebody down there is going to know what we can do with these drugs. And so we went to Arizona and turns out not only will the people that are in Arizona buy the drugs from you, but they'll give you a bunch of guns. And the guns down there are dirt cheap. But in Michigan, I can get a gun here for a hundred bucks and I can go in Michigan. I could sell it for $8,900. So let's take all the guns back to Michigan and we'll go rob some more drug dealers.

And then we'll take the guns back now. And that's what I started to do. I'd go back and forth. And this is how I ended up with two kids and crossed separate sides of the country, right? If I fell in love with a stripper out here, got her pregnant. Fell in love with one up here, got her pregnant. And so back and forth. And it was such a crazy and violent time in my life.

And I eventually got popped for that with 15 felonies. up there for possession of firearms, home invasions, larcenium possession of firearms, and those were my neck... Crack a Cayman Jack Margarita with real lime, blue agave nectar,

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We're all firearms and home invasion. right? Do you think you were running from, you know, that childhood weak self of yours? Sure. Sure. 100%. It's the unworthiness that you feel as a victim, you feel unseen, unworthy, and you feel empty. And when you do something that gives you an adrenaline rush or a dopamine release, it subconsciously fills that sense of self-worth. And so it becomes a, addictive because at least I'm feeling something. At least I'm not being hurt and abused or dead inside. I'm feeling something. And so it becomes addictive. And I don't consciously empathize with the victims of my crimes or the people that are on the receiving end of this.

I just know that I feel something as opposed to feeling nothing or to feeling dead. And it became intoxicating, right? Like, and I, and I, then I had to be the man syndrome because I have more money than I know what to do with. And, and, and I did get into, like, drugs and, you know, a little bit of cocaine and in some crystal meth. And those just made you feel even more alive, like, oh, my God. And it was just, it was just a recipe for disaster, man.

How did you end up getting caught? My brother told on me. I reconnected with my brother when I got out. I was 21. And I mean, that's one of the things that still kind of, it cuts deep. I worshipped my brother as a kid. My brother was like my protector. He used to beat kids up.

The ones that bullied me, he would beat them up. And when I got out and I was 21, there was a shift in that dynamic. I'm bigger. I'm smarter. I'm stronger. I'm tough. I'm not your little brother anymore, right? And it kind of shifted.

And you could tell that that jealousy was there. He wanted to be the big tough guy, but I don't have anything to prove to you. And when I went, when we got caught on this, so it was me, my brother, and a friend of ours named Taco, who's not with us anymore, he passed on. I got away. I got out of the car and took off running, and they got caught. And when I eventually got caught hours later, I mean, we went through fields, dog chases, please, changed his helicopters. It was an epic eight-hour run from the cops. And I remember being down in the station. And I think they deliberately did it. They put me in this interrogation room. And right down the

hall is my brother. And I hear him telling these officers, I don't know what was happening. My brother made me do it. He said, if I didn't do it, he was going to shoot me, and that we were just collecting debts that he was owed. And I'm like, dude, I hear this guy doing this. and eventually he sends me a letter and says, you know, I thought you got away and this is what you would want us to do, that you would want us to say that it was you because I thought you got away and you would be gone to Mexico or something and this was our way out. And no, no, it wasn't. And so he got two years for the gun that he had. And while we were, I got my 12 and he still had charges pending. I get a letter from him in 2008 saying, bro, I see the parole board and they stayed

off my decision because of the pending charges. So I went back to court and I pled guilty to all the charges and said it was me. He wasn't there. My brother had nothing to do with it. So they released, they dropped all the charges against him and let him out after two years. And then I get another letter from And he was like, dude, thank you so much, blah, blah, blah. I'm going to be homeless. I have to parole to a homeless shelter. So I called up my oldest son's mother, who I talk to every day. I met her through him.

He used to date her sister. And I said, Nikki, Frank's getting out and he needs a place to stay. I don't want my brother going to a homeless. And she hated him, right? She was like, this guy got you put in prison for 12 years. My son has to be raised because he told on you. She hated him. And I was like, but he's my brother.

He's family. He's the only family I got. Like, I know he told on me, I forgave him. You got to forgive him. She lets him parole to the house. And the day got out, I called. Hey, all right. So you're going to help raise Caden.

You're going to get a job. You got to move out soon. You can stay there for maybe a month or two, but you got to get out. Yeah, yeah, no problem, bro, no problem. And that was the last time I talked to him, my kid or her's mother. for a few months. Like, and for me, like, you can imagine, I called every day to talk to my son. She brought my son up to see me every week.

I'm like, what is happening? Like, I can't get through it all. A week goes by, two weeks go by, three weeks go by. I'm like, what happened? And a few months later, I think it was October. And finally the phone answers. And it's, it's Nikki. And she's like, I'm like, what's going?

What the hell? What's happening? I say, you're going to hate me. Why would I hate you? I'm not going to hate you. What happened? I'm pregnant. Well, I don't, I'm doing 12 years in prison.

I don't expect you to not get laid from time to time. Whoever it is, just tell them to screw off and we'll raise the kid as our own and I'll be his dad or her dad and Caden will be the brother and it's fine. Well, it's not that. What? what it's franks i i mean i lost it i lost my mind right like how many times is this guy going to do this to me and then she turns around and says and he thinks you shouldn't be in our life and that you're going to be a detriment to kaden and we're not going to have you see him anymore he's going to

raise kaden as his own click i lost my mind bro like this is the only thing in my life that i thought was something to be good for, was this kid, right, that I have. I want to be a better father, so I'm going to try to change my life so that when I get out, he'll be 12 years old when I get out. I'm going to be a better person. I gave up. I'm like, there's no point in being a good person. It just has no payoff, right?

Like, people are going to backstab you, screw you. This man that I worship my brother, like, to do that, to, I'm just going to be the most evil human being I can be. and threw myself right back into it. And very shortly after a kid ran in my cell while I was aware, I worked in the kitchen, come home, sales empty. Well, we know what that is, right? Like, I'm a ticket runner for the ticket guys, for sports,

and my cell's empty. And within, you know, five minutes, man, I got guys that are like, that guy Flint, Flint, Flint did it, Flint did it, Flint, that guy did plant. I know who it was in five minutes. Like, you're not going to. So as soon as they open the doors, I got my locks.

I took my weight, my weight pit straps and strapped them on, strapped my locks to it. They opened the doors and I beat this guy until they gassed me. Like the COs, you got to gas me. I'm not going to stop. They're like, well, stop. Why don't you come over here? I'll give something to you too.

Go ahead. Come on. And I was just beating this guy until they gas me. And that's when they carted me off to the hole, right? They drug me down there. I'm covered in pepper spray and blood and they threw me in the cell. And literally five minutes later, hey, why boy? Hey, white boy, what happened?

Hey, white boy. That was the changing moment of my life was when I got put in that hole for the five years. So they give you five years in the hole for that? Yeah. He beat that guy up that bad? Yeah. I went down a week later and saw SCC. And they were like, so the guy's in a coma.

If he dies, we're going to charge you with murder. And you're going to be here for the rest of your life. As it sits, we'll see you in 60 months. Head on back up to yourself. So did your brother end up having the kid? they had a kid together, yeah. But they're still married to this day. Wait, so you and your brother shared the same baby moms?

Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Do you guys talk now or no? No. Okay. No. I had a bit of a relationship with my older son, but literally he gets on the phone with me and he's like, my dad up.

I mean, Frank, and it's just those little moments where it's like he was raised his whole life thinking. that my brother is his father and realizes when I get out, that's when you have to break down and tell them, because you know I'm coming to look for my son. And that's when you got to tell him that, well, he's actually your uncle, but they didn't tell him that. They were like, oh, this is, this is your actual dad. Yeah, do you know who that actually is? That's your uncle. That's my brother. Like, I'm not going to protect you guys from anything, right? Like, that's not my job. And it just, the poor kid, it's, it's, you got to imagine being the kid, right? Like, you're raised up by these people.

You love this man. He's been your dad. And then I come along and, and so it's, it's still a strained relationship. I talk to him periodically. He's 21 now and, I mean, you're a grown man. So at this point, the door is open if you want a relationship with your real father. Like, you have that opportunity.

I'll never not be here for you, but he's just, you know, he's, he's doing his own thing at 21. And I guess he just, he has a family, so he doesn't really care. And it's, I'll be here whenever he decides that it's at that time. But, you know, he's a young, angry kid, I suppose. So what was the total amount of time you got for this case? Because you said you took some charges for your brother, too, when he was up for parole. Yeah. So they just ran the time concurrent with what I already had.

So I pled guilty. They added, you know, six years, seven years, whatever it was. And they just ran it concurrent with my time. So I didn't actually get any more time. I just had the same amount of time. And that was 12 years for the whole case. 11 years, 11 months. And because of your actions in there, you don't get any time off.

No, no. It's day for day. It's, if they give you 11 years, 11 months, you'll do 11 years and 11 months before you're eligible to see the port. Before you can get out. They can add time. They can flop you, but they're not going to give you any good time. So five years in solitary, what's that like? Is it actual, like, solitary single cell?

100%. It's half the size of this room. And it's solitary, right? It's a 9 by 10 cell. it's got a toilet and it's got a bunk and it's got a desk and a slit of a window looking outside and a tiny little window there and a food hatch. That's it. And I turned it into 19 months. I didn't actually end up doing all five years. I started, once we started going through this metamorphosis with Mallory Bay, I started to write essays. And the funny part is that

I look back at it and I was able to start changing my life from this little cell, right? Like, I changed the world around me. Like, the CEOs hated me. I was such a dick to CEOs. And once I started to be kind to the COs, I started to be like, good morning officer. How you doing? Hey, I'm good, Wilcox.

How you doing? And just being nice, they started to be nicer. Like, hey, Wilcox, I got an extra tray here, man. You want this extra tray? Hell, yeah, I want that extra tray. Like, we're starving. You get 10 minutes in the shower. three times a week in Segg.

So stay in there for next five, you're all right. Boom, right? You go out to bring you a newspaper. Like, here's a newspaper. You want this? You want this? Like, these CEOs started to be nice to me because I started to be nice to them. And that blew my mind for some reason, like, oh, if you're nice, people will be nice to you.

Like, I never thought of that. And I started to write these essays about my life as I started to go through this forgiveness metamorphosis where one of the things that Mallory Bay had taught me was to write these forgiveness letters to all the people that I had hurt in the world because I don't know you. I don't know your name. I don't know who you are. I don't know how to get that to you. And he said, write the remorse, write it down in a letter and we'll burn the letter. Obviously, we can't burn letters in segregation, but so we'll flush it down the toilet. But the point is to do the exercise, write it out, And the first time I would do it and I would send it to him.

And he'd be like, this is all excuses. This is, I did this to you because I was raped. I was abused. I was hurt as a child. I did it. And he's like, you're just making an excuse as to what you've done. You're not seeking remorse for the harm you've caused this person. And so I would rewrite the letter and rewrite it, rewrite it and rewrite it until it was just,

it was heartfelt remorse, right? Like you did not deserve what I've done to you. I did not know how to deal with my anger and the pain that I was dealing with and I took it out on you. And for that, I am so sorry. I will live the rest of my life trying to be the best form of human being that I can in hopes that somehow tips the scale and make what I've done to you not in vain. That the pain that I have caused taught me a lesson so that I can help save a life or I can help do something better in my life so that the suffering and the pain that you were caused, was not for nothing. And I would write and write and write.

And then I would walk and read. I would paste the cell and read these letters out loud until I basically had them memorized. And I mean, I would cry. I went into depression. I had sleepless nights, cold sweats, nightmares, and just rethinking of all these things. And then when I finally felt like I hit that moment of true remorse,

we flushed them down the toilet. He's like, let it go. God, Buddha, Allah, whatever you call the higher power that exists, we have to trust that they will take that remorse that you have put into these words and it will be carried on to the hearts of these people. And they will somehow intrinsically know that what you have done was not in vain. And so aside from doing that, I started to write like poems and essays. And, you know, like in prison, they have these contests.

There's spoken word contests, and they give you little store bags if you win, right? They have first, second, third place. First place gets a big store bag. And so I started to submit to these competitions, and the special activities coordinator would come in and would take them out and put them in the contest for me. And then one day, they come back and I won. I got first place. And the ADW comes in.

He's like, I can't give you the store bag because you're in segregation. Can't give it to you. But I thought you'd want to know that you actually got first place. in the competition. And so after, you know, 19 months, they come to me and they say, hey, we're instituting this new program. It's called Thinking for a Change. It's a new program in the DOC, and we want inmates to teach other inmates. So we're looking for qualified inmates to teach it. You've done incredible work over the time that you've been in the hole. If we give you the material, will you study it? Give us a presentation on how you would teach a class. And if we

accept it, well, let you out of the hole so you can go teach the class. Absolutely. 100%. I will do whatever to get out of this hole. I'm going to stir crazy. And so I did it. And I studied, and I mean the material is simple. I don't know if you ever took thinking for a change, but it's basically where they teach you to put your hands up to your temple and make this a habit so that when I'm doing this, I'm not actually speaking. I'm thinking. So I can't be held accountable for what comes out of my mouth. I can say whatever I want because I'm thinking it. And then this teaches you to slow down in the moment instead of reacting to think and then act. So I studied material.

Go down, get their presentation. They're like, yeah, we're going to let you do it. And then the day comes, back your stuff, you're getting out. I'm all excited. Like, here we go. And they take me to protective custody. And I'm like, is this a sick joke? Are you kidding me?

Like, yeah, no, they walked me to one block. And I'm like, wait, general, GP's that way. What are we doing? Well, you can go back to the, hole. I'm like, what was Mallory Bay say? What would he do? What would he do? What would he do? I'm going to do it. I'm going to go in here and I'm going to teach this class. I'm going to go in here. I'm going to take this opportunity that's presented. I don't care about impressing people anymore. That was my biggest thing. I was no way I'm ever going to go into protective custody. I'm never going to do that because my reputation goes to

absolute shit. I'm not going to do it. I've got to stop caring what these people think about me. I don't care what you think. I have to do what I know is right in my heart. I'm going to go in here and teach this class. And just, I'm like, all right, cool, I've already swallowed my pride enough to get in here and do this. My first class, there's 30 dudes in there. And part of this program is that you have to get up and say why you're in prison. 27 of them are pedophiles. Well, of course you are. That's why you're in protective custody. And I'm like, you've got to be kidding me. Do you know my past, like, they don't. You obviously don't know my childhood. Huh. And then I thought, you know what? This is an opportunity for me to show you what happens

to the kids that you abuse. I don't know that pedophiles ever really get to see that, right? I am the byproduct of what you do to kids. And some of you are in protective custody because of me. Like, we used to hunt pedophiles. This is a good. This is. is what happens to these kids that you do this to. And if I can teach you to ignore that inherent urge that you have to rape a child, then maybe I can save a kid's life. And it's worth it to sit in here and talk to use low life stains to try to teach you something. And so I did. I taught the 12-week class. I don't know if it worked. I don't know if it helped. I didn't stay in touch with it. I don't care about pedophiles. But it did something for me. It's solidified.

in my mind that I'm no longer, I don't, I'm not held captive to an outside perception. I don't care what my gang thinks about me. I don't care what other inmates think. I don't care what I'm doing something for the world that might save a kid's life. And from that moment forward, my life has been dedicated to service to know that I have the ability to use what has happened in my life to teach somebody and maybe save a kid's life. And that's what I did. And that's what I did. and that's where it all started. If you didn't have that moment and you went back to general population, do you think you would have just continued with the same?

I would like to think not, but who knows? I mean, I was there for maybe a year and then I got back out to general population, which became a year-long war with my own gang. But I don't know. I would like to think so. I would like to think that what I learned and what I went through in solitary would, would have stuck with me, but it's so hard when you are in that moment, in that phase,

that I don't know. I would like to think so, but who would have, could have should have, right? Who knows? When you grow up with the life you had and you're in solitary thinking about, you know, what the future could be like, what are you comparing it to? Because your life before prison was just as bad

as that present moment. How do you have hope for the future? in solitary that's where I really started to design it I started to take myself out of solitary confinement in my mind I mean if you would have been one of the CEOs I probably looked bat shit crazy right I'm literally pacing the cell I would touch the door go back touch the window touch the door and the whole time I'm talking I'm like speaking out loud because in my mind I'm envisioning that I'm on a stage in an arena teaching people or I'm talking about my life or I'm telling people how you can forgive yourself and how to let go of those that have hurt you.

And I must have looked crazy as shit, right? And then on top of it, I'm singing all the time. Music has been just a huge part of my life. So I'm singing all the time. And I think that intrinsically was healing for me. I think that prepared me for what I do now because I'm able to take a stage. And when I go on that, it's nerve-wracking as hell when you walk out into a stage and there's a room full of people.

But I just go back to the hole, right? I'm just back in that solitary confinement and be like, no, no, this is what the world needs. This is how I can help the world. This is how I can take my life and make something positive of it. And then I think about that little boy looking at me, my own self and saying, be brave. I wasn't brave when I was this big and that trauma happened.

But if I can be brave now and stare down these people and go out here and be vulnerable and not care what someone thinks about me, just go out here and tell the, the truth about my life, maybe I can save a kid. Maybe somebody doesn't have to go through this feeling of loneliness and emptiness. And that's literally all I know now, right? Like, I don't have any other grand visions or plans for my life. I just want to live.

And from that moment, it was literally, I just, if I can use my life and my story and the experiences I've had to help somebody else, it makes it worth it. because Victor Frankel wrote in that book, suffering the moment you give it a purpose, such as the meaning of sacrifice. If I can take the pain and the trauma and the abuse that I've been through and I can make it have a purpose,

it gives it meaning. I'm no longer suffering. And I might be able to save a life. And after that first DM you get or that first email that you have saved someone's life, that's the most intoxic. thing in the world. When you know when a mom sends you and my son chose not to do this because of your story, I'm done. There's nothing else I can do.

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Oh, and free waffles are yours to claim. Well, I hope you like my little song. Book direct at sourcehilltells.com. I can't do anything else in my life except try to help as many as I can. What was it like getting out of protective custody and going back to general population and facing your gang head on? It was bad. I ended up getting stabbed three times. I have these holes in my head because they locked me in the chow hall.

I was eating dinner and they came from four separate ways and I have these scars all over my hands because I put my hands up like this and was just taking locks. You know, I talked to the leader and told them like, I'm done. I just want to retire like I'm on a different path in life and well, you know, that's how it's not how it works. bro. Well, it is. I mean, that is how it works. There's a retirement clause in the contract here, right? Like, I put in my work for y'all faithfully for 15 years. I'm good, bro. That's not how it works. And then they just started jumping. I would go to the bathroom. You know, we're in a level two. And so we have, the bathrooms are no longer in the cells. They're at the end of the hall. And I mean, I'm getting jumped down there. I'm getting jumped in the weight pit. I'm getting jumped on the yard.

And I mean, I'm no punk, right? So I'm going to fight back, bro. Like, I wasn't impeach. because I was scared. I went over there to do something to make some differences. If y'all think I'm a bitch, go for it, right? Like, you saw what I did for you. You think what I'll do to you? Like, I'm not a punk, right? And so that just, and these young gangbangers are different than old head gangbangers.

And dude, they ended up stabbing me. I got stabbed here. I got stabbed on my back. I got stabbed on my side. And I eventually, I, I really hurt the head in the yard. I don't like to talk about the violence and things that are in prison, but, you know, I made a glove with razor blades in the fingertips and slapped him, and it lit up his whole face.

And I don't know what happened. You know, I threw the glove over there and we're all, I don't know what happened. So we all got rode out. And then I hit a level one yard a couple months later. And the head came to me and was like, what those guys have been doing is wrong. You are, you were a solid brother. You retired. You should be able to retire faithfully.

They'll never touch you again. You have my word. And since then, I'd never had a problem. And then I was able to go through the rest of my bit doing yoga and studies and all that. And we built. And the crazy part about that is that you realize, like, I could have been doing that from day one. You don't have to go to prison and have this violent experience.

You can go there and choose to just be a quiet, respectful person. to study, to go to school, to learn, to grow, and they're not going to mess with you, right? If you're a child abuser, you're going to get messed with, period. But if you just go and you're just a normal, we call it righteous crime, right? If you're a righteous criminal, they're not going to mess with as long as you're not a rat or a punk or any of it, you're fine. Go study, go learn, take advantage of the time. And it took me the hard way to figure that out, right? So looking back on it, do you wish that you never said you were gang affiliates?

when you went back that second time? Yeah. Oh, I wish I would have left that alone. That was, if you live and you learn, right? It's experience. I really wish I would have left that alone, but. Now, why would the guards put you back into general population to begin with? It was my choice.

I don't, I don't want to stay here. Like, I don't want to be here. This is, I'm surrounded by people I don't want to be around. Like, there's all the, the worst of the worst here. And like, there's, they have pet of chomo groups that are just over there hanging out. Like, I don't want to be around that. Like, I, in my mind, I'm already generating what their conversations are. I don't want to be around this because it just infuriates me. I don't want to be around it. I don't want to be in protective cause. I don't need protection from a grown-ass man,

bro. I don't need this. I'm not here because I was running from anything, right? I, I want to go out. Well, you know the consequences. I don't care. Let me out. How old are you when you're finishing that 12-year sentence? I was 35 when I got out. So I was 32, 31? Were you afraid to be released? I mean, you hadn't experienced anything other than, you know, the streets or prison in life? You mean released from protective custody or released to the world?

Released to the world after all those years. I never thought it was going to happen. I actually want to share that picture with you guys. I have the picture. My ex-wife took the photo. when I fell, I couldn't even stand up. Like, they had played with me so hard for like the first up to the two weeks. I was supposed to get out to two weeks before I got out.

I was supposed to get out August 2nd. I ended up getting out August 16 of 2016. The first time it was like, uh, the records ladies on vacation. Nobody else can sign the paper? Apparently not. So next Monday. What? After you gave all your stuff away to all your homeboys, like, I'm out.

you guys can have all this go back sit there for another week come up there was a mix up in your background check we can't let you out like and i now know what this is you're trying to break me you're testing me i didn't think i was ever going to get out and so the day that i got out i i mean i started to like tunnel as i was getting closer to the gate and i walked outside and i just i i fell down i was on my knees i'm kissing the pavement for a milling and i have that picture my wife took the picture my ex-wife and um that was the moment that i never thought i was going to make it and yeah i was terrified i was excited i was all the things right like you know i mean it all goes out the window right everybody's got a plan till you get punched in the mouth right

mike tyson you have a plan until you walk up there and you get out and it's just different right because the whole world has the world didn't stop they didn't push the pause button because i went to prison right and so i get out and then there's this thing like these are real wow holy crap like that didn't exist when i went to prison like i have to figure this out like i got to figure out what the hell a chip is on a on a debit card like put it in the chip reader put what in the chip reader the chip what chip what is a chip i don't even know what that means right like you got a you feel like a caveman lost in this world and yeah, it was, it was, it was a very much a culture shock. How long do you think it took you to get back on your feet and to really, you know,

find some stability and live out what the life you plan for yourself in prison? Well, I was fortunate enough that I had got married. I met a lady a few years before I got out and we got married. So I had a home to parole to, and I had a car, which, I mean, it was, It was such a great stepping stone because, I mean, a lot of guys get out to nothing. And it makes the climb that much harder. But I went to work for the union in Cleveland. I met a guy.

I had to go prove myself to the union. I went in on a union demolition construction site. And I outworked everybody on there. I mean, I'm in shape, bro. Like, we work out in there. That's all we do. And so I hit this job site. And, I mean, I'm just out hustling everybody.

And within a week, I got offered the job. They paid for my book. And I got into the local 310 laborish union in Cleveland and started doing demolition. So immediately, I have a pretty good paying job. And my ex-wife at the time, she had a really good paying job. So it was okay. I didn't need for anything, right?

So I was able to take my time in transition. But again, I wasn't the guy that's going to just come out and sit on my ass for five months. I literally was two weeks later I was working. Like, I have to go. do something. I need to sit here. But I wanted a music career. So my goal was that I would get out and I would start a music career and I would teach people through the power of music because music has always been a safe haven for me. And I manifested that. Like I met a guy, a little Italian guy in a guitar center and joined his band. Then like three days later, I went out and joined his band and very

quickly took over the band and then got us booked on a show and they were like, this is too fast, too much for us too quickly. But the show that I got us booked on ends up becoming my best friend of this day, Anthony Narcise, who owns the club. It's called Music Links. And they don't have anybody to run the club. And Anthony and I instantly hit it off.

And he's like, well, that band's done because I'm moving too fast, but now I'm going to work at this club. I'm going to be the general manager of this club. And so he brings me in, and we're bringing in big band names. And then, so I'm doing that, and I'm doing demolition. This is my whole life. I go to work. I go to the club. Go to work, go to the club and and then I got a girl pregnant like work club kid work club pregnant white you know what I mean

going through that rig and roll and then I started my band and my band did really good and like within 90 days we got signed to ferocious records and then 90 days after that we've got a tour band and we're hitting cities Chicago Detroit doing all these these shows you know running around doing these tours and I'm like this is we're going to do this this is it and then COVID hit And it's, you can't do that anymore. So I'm laying on my couch one day in my house and I see no life shack on YouTube doing a reaction video. And I'm like, look at his channel. This guy's got a million subscribers.

And I'm like, I can do that. So I go down in my basement and I do my first reaction video and it got like five, six hundred views. So I did another one. And I got a couple thousand views. And I did another one. And that got a few thousand. next thing you know, I've got a thousand subscribers on YouTube. Like, well, that worked quickly.

So then I learned like, well, this sucks, that audio sucks. Your camera sucks. So I started growing. Within six months, I had 50,000 subscribers. I was making a great living and I had this global platform. And I'm like, I need to tell you all something. You are worthy of love. You are worthy of forgiveness.

You are worthy. And then all of a sudden I started interviewing people and we started doing podcasting and shows. And it was resonating so, well and I'm like, this is where I need to be. This is my, of course, it's COVID. So we're all getting a paycheck to stay at home. And everybody's watching YouTube because nobody else has anything to do. And so I then decided, I realized like, I am not happy with the woman that I'm with.

I need to get out of here. Like, I'm not happy with you. I want to leave. And she went bananas. And so she hacked into my YouTube channel, posted porn 3 o'clock in the morning. They delete my channel. I'm homeless. I have no money, I have no income.

And I'm sitting there like, my buddy, who's a lead singer of a really big band, bought me a plane ticket, flew me down to Florida. And I'm sitting in his living room like, what has happened here? Like, I just went from all that to having this really successful thing to, I'm sitting on a buddy's couch in Florida. And this is 2020. I'm like, dude, what is happening? And so I determined, I'm going to go buy a car. They bent me over the barrel of that at Cape Coral, Florida. I bought that car.

I rode back to Michigan, Ohio, back to Cleveland. My buddy owns a large staffing company in Cleveland. Let me get a condo that he owns. Boom, got into condo. I started rebuilding, rebranding, going back at it. And I get booked on this podcast called Boot Camp for the Mind and Soul. And this British lady pops on. Greetings from London.

And she's my wife, right? We five years later, like, she's my wife and she has been the brightest light in my crazy, crazy life. And, uh, I own a cat cafe and, and I just, my life, every day of my life is now spent trying to heal people. And one of the, I think I would say one of the biggest hurdles that I have in life is battling the opinions of others, right? after putting out my book and I've done a lot of podcasts

and I've gone a lot of things. One of the things that drives me the most crazy is that so many people spend so much time trying to impress another person. And so they don't feel worthy of telling their story or sharing their pain or being vulnerable enough to tell their trauma. And it's people like the West Watson's of the world

or these other ex-convicts that, as an ex-convict, you've seen some stuff. has somebody that's been in prison. People that do hard time are quiet, right? They're like, they're grateful. They're happy to be free. They're blessed. The people that didn't are the ones that you see out here on these fucking social media.

I was a shock caller. Here's how you stab somebody. Here was this. Here was that. Like, there's no oversight. There's nobody that's going to pull you off and be like, bruh. they can't right so you know you now have a leeway in prison's a hot trending topic right now and i think it does so much more damage than it does good and i i don't even know why i went there

but i did like you it really bothers me that people are doing that because there's so many judgmental people on social media that are going to come out like well that didn't happen or that's not true and just don't care what those people are saying right because that's our reflection of them. You don't have anything to prove. Tell your story. Use your life. The things that trauma, you are a prime example of this. The things that you've been through in your life are what are going to help people in life because the power of conversation, the power of your experience will help shape somebody's life, right? What would you tell your teenage self if you could sit across from him today? Be strong. This two shall pass. Like,

Be strong. Don't give in. Set boundaries. Love. Please love and forgive. I was such a bitter, angry, and hateful person. Like, stay strong, man. Just be strong.

This is going to pass. It's temporary. Everything in life is temporary, bro. Our lives are temporary. Our success is temporary. Our money is temporary. So is our pain. So is our happiness.

So is our joy. it was our trauma, so everything is temporary. Yesterday is a memory and tomorrow is a wish. Today is your reality, right? Live it. Live right now. This is what you've got. This is what you can control.

Right. Sunny, I appreciate you coming on the show today. Thank you so much for having me, bro. I need to really quickly give a shout out to what I'm doing today. Yeah, of course. Because there's some really amazing organizations that I'm working with that are doing the hard work in this world, things like Operation Light Shine with Jim Cole, Our Rescue, the National Child Protection Task Force. It is astronomical how kids are being abused today because of technology.

And there are people that are putting in that work. Some of these agents, I used to look at these agents, I used to hate cops. I used to hate law enforcement, right? It's because I didn't know what they go through. I think in my mind I was ignorant, but some of these agents are literally killing themselves to help save these kids. And I am so grateful that I am now put in a position where I can utilize my life and my story with the people who are putting it to the people that need it. And I just need to give a huge shout out to them. And your platform is going to help raise awareness because you have people like Jim,

you have other agents, you have people like me. Thank you for what you do. And thank you so much for having me out here, bro. Of course, it was my pleasure. And I look forward to you and Jim's podcast. Whenever you guys get that launch, a lot, the link to the description of this too. Looking forward to it, man.

You guys got to have me as a guest one day. Would love, yeah. So we're going to be doing the cop and the convict podcast. I would love to have you in there to hear your, you have an incredible story. We've done our research. Have an incredible story, bro. Yeah, whenever you guys are ready, let me know.

Looking forward to it, my friend.